← Book Riot - The Podcast
Book Riot - The Podcast
Everything Romance with Jessica Pryde
00:45:09
Jeff and Rebecca are joined by romance expert Jessica Pryde to talk about romantasy, current trends in romance, category romance, navigating commercial romance covers, and much more.
Loading summary
Transcript119 lines
- [00:00]
Ryan Reynolds
Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile with a message for everyone paying big wireless way too much. Please, for the love of everything good in this world, stop with Mint. You can get premium wireless for just $15 a month. Of course, if you enjoy overpaying. No judgments. But that's weird. Okay, one judgment anyway. Give it a try@mintmobile.com Switch upfront payment.
- [00:22]
Mint Mobile Announcer
Of $45 for 3 month plan equivalent to $15 per month. Required intro rate first 3 months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra.
- [00:28]
Rebecca Schinsky
See full terms@mintmobile.com this episode is brought.
- [00:32]
Ryan Reynolds
To you by Nerds Gummy Clusters. The sweet treat that always elevates the vibe with a sweet gummy surrounded with tangy, crunchy nerds. Every bite of Nerds Gummy Clusters brings you a whole new world of flavor. Whether it's game night, on the way to a concert or kicking back with your crew, unleash your senses with Nerds Gummy Clusters.
- [00:51]
Jeff O'Neill
This is the Book Riot podcast. I'm Jeff O'Neill.
- [00:53]
Rebecca Schinsky
And I'm Rebecca Schinsky.
- [00:55]
Jeff O'Neill
And today we're joined by Jess Pride to talk about romance in its many forms and what's going on in the world of romance. You're listening to this today. If you're listening on day one on February 12th. So the Valentine's Day weekend is coming. You still have time to pick out something for yourself or someone else in your life if a valentine shaped book is interesting to you. I also just want to ask Jess some questions about how the romance world is feeling right now in their ascendants. Right. What are we thinking about romance? Interesting trends that she's seeing. Rebecca arranged this. So what do we want to talk with Jess about? Rebecca, what are you most interested to do?
- [01:34]
Rebecca Schinsky
I pinged Jess right after you and I went on our fourth Wing adventure.
- [01:38]
Jeff O'Neill
Yes.
- [01:39]
Rebecca Schinsky
And was like we need an expert who can talk to us about not just romance but like romantasy specifically. And so the origins of the genre even before we had the category title. So what are earlier examples of a mix of fantasy and romance? How did this come to be the thing that it is right now? And I would personally like to know, like if I did not care for fourth wing, but I'm still interested in trying some kind of Romantasy that's like maybe better written than 4th Wing was. What should I read? Also, if 4th Wing super worked for you, maybe what are some under the radar recommendations and maybe, you know, some romantasy that's not by white ladies.
- [02:19]
Jess Pride
Well, hello. Thank you so much for having me. That. That's. There's a lot. There's a lot there.
- [02:25]
Rebecca Schinsky
I realized I just got going into my laundry list of, like, I have so many questions for Jess. So you just, you know, take whatever.
- [02:31]
Jeff O'Neill
Pick what's the most interesting.
- [02:32]
Jess Pride
Yeah.
- [02:33]
Rebecca Schinsky
You want to start?
- [02:34]
Jess Pride
All right, well, let's start out with the state of romance right now. Romance. After everybody got sent home and locked in their homes in 2020, it, I think, has since doubled in public readership and, like, sales because it's always been one of the most popular selling genres. But there. There was a very long period of, you know, hush, hush. I don't read romance. What are you talking about? And I think especially TikTok has made it so people are more openly discussing their. Their love of romance and the romance authors that they found. There's this whole thing about the word smut that is it, like, for those of us who have been reading for a long time and have had the word thrown at us in negative fashion, it's still kind of like, makes you do a little, like. But it's such a prevalent word in the people who have recently discovered it. And like, I don't. I don't see publishers pulling away from it. They're actually throwing more money at it. But in the state of the world right now, we have to, like, sort of watch what's going on because there have already discussions of putting it under the umbrella of pornography in the discussions of what people cannot do and what people will be, like, felonized for. So hopefully that is something that will never make it past a judge. Yeah.
- [04:17]
Rebecca Schinsky
So this is like ascendance. Reclamation of smut. Is that like, reclamation of the terminology? Is that. What do you think that is coming from? Like, my. I want to spin it as, like, we're just a more sex POS culture, but I don't think that's the case. So what is it just that publishers discovered that people want to read, like, the dirty details of a moment, and they're like, let's call it smut. Let's just reclaim it. There's nothing to be ashamed of. Like, how did that happen?
- [04:45]
Jess Pride
I don't think it was in the publisher's hands. I think it was in the big social media promoters hands. And they were like, oh, I heard this word, and this is exactly what this is. Even though, you know, like, I. I come from a very strange. Not strange, but I come from a different avenue than a lot of people where I don't read romance for the sex scene. Like, sure, it's great if they're there and if they're well written, glad to have it. But I don't need them in my romance. And I'm not. I'm not like, oh, God, sex.
- [05:17]
Rebecca Schinsky
But I am also like, it's not the main event.
- [05:24]
Jess Pride
I like it. I like it. I'm gonna start using that. So, like, I'm not like, give me the smut. Because now people are calling every romance novel smut, even if it doesn't have mutt in it. So it's just.
- [05:37]
Rebecca Schinsky
And that's like, an interesting intersection of spicy and smut. Like, I think often spicy is the code. Like, the marketing code for smutty. But one of the disagreements that Jeff and I had as we read 4th Wing was how spicy was it actually and how smutty was it actually just, I think coming from different amounts of. Having read romance and erotica in the past, and I'm curious about that. Like, are we just talking about now? Readers are more comfortable admitting that many of them like the sex scenes. Or are we actually in a new phase of romance or has romantasy actually introduced something new?
- [06:18]
Jess Pride
I think there's a little bit of all of that happening. People are more like, like, you know what? I'm just gonna tell you everything about me, and I like reading about sex. Fourth Wing is not that sexy. I'm gonna. Like, I have been reading. I have been reading Katie Robert for 15 years. Fourth Wing is not that sexy.
- [06:38]
Rebecca Schinsky
It takes 474 pages for anybody to bone. Like, come on.
- [06:44]
Jeff O'Neill
In my defense. Or I don't know who I'm defending. It's not a defense.
- [06:47]
Rebecca Schinsky
It's not an attack.
- [06:49]
Jeff O'Neill
No, it's not an attack. What I said on our show. That's Patreon, so maybe a lot of people haven't heard it. Is that if 4th Wing was filmed as written, it would be NC17 in the theater. And for me, that's kind of a bright line right now. If you come from the other side of that, where you're sort of. I'm. I don't know, approaching that from a different level of spiciness. Fewer peppers on the pepper, The Scoville scale or whatever. For me, that's pretty darn. I mean, sexy, I guess, is more of a qualitative. I'm thinking more of a quantitative distinction. Right. If this was filmed, would it be NC17? I think it would be. Now, again, things Rebecca mentioned that if 50 shades of gray was filmed. Exactly. Was written. It would also be NC17. But it wasn't so if it ever makes it to a theater. Hbo, Max. I don't know. Maybe there's a Game of Thrones style version of a fourth wing that would exist, which is explicit. Maybe explicit is what I'm thinking. You know, 50 shades of gray was explicitly about the explicitness. I think the thing that's surprising to me about Fourth Wing and seeing it, the end, captive target, people talking about it is for people who don't know anything about or haven't read it. I think they think it's just a fantasy novel. I think they would be genuinely surprised to get. I mean, it may take them 480 pages, but then I think they'd be.
- [08:04]
Rebecca Schinsky
Like, whoa, whoa, wham, bam, lightning shoots everywhere.
- [08:09]
Jeff O'Neill
Wham, bam, thunder man. So I think that is, that is very unusual in this kind of a situation because I think it's right to notice that 50 strays was explicit. But there's the combination. Right? It's fantasy, fantasy, fantasy, bedroom, bedroom, bedroom, and then fantasy. And that seems to me interesting for the last, you know, at the very least.
- [08:30]
Jess Pride
Yeah. And you know, like, fantasy. Fantasy has been considered more of like a different thing for a long time. Even though, like. Okay, so I started reading fantasy in high school, but I picked up Jennifer roberson instead of J.R.R. tolkien.
- [08:56]
Jeff O'Neill
Tolkien or something.
- [08:56]
Rebecca Schinsky
Yeah.
- [08:57]
Jess Pride
And Jennifer Roberson wrote romance. Like, and like, I probably wouldn't have called it that at that point, even though I was reading like actual romance because my mother's shelves were covered in it and I needed books to read. And she's the one that I always go to when people about Romantasy as this new thing. You know, she, her, her books were the same, as you would see now, connected series of different couples dealing with this overarching fantasy plot. And it was, it was like catnip to me. I was like, I need more of this. So I, I went in search of like Melanie, Ron and all of these other people that, that doll was publishing in the 80s and 90s. Right. And then it like, it sort of took a backseat to the revolution of chick lit and like Bridget Jones's Diary and like that era of, of romantic stories. And then Sarah J. Maas, bless her heart, wrote Acotar A Court of Thorn and Roses. And.
- [10:05]
Jeff O'Neill
Yeah, we don't even, can't even. We're so, we're so brain rotted we can't even say the full title. I was thinking the same as soon as you said. I was like, oh, that's what I would have said.
- [10:14]
Rebecca Schinsky
I think everybody knows.
- [10:16]
Jeff O'Neill
Yeah.
- [10:16]
Jess Pride
Yeah.
- [10:16]
Rebecca Schinsky
What Acotar is. You're listening to a pretty nerdy book podcast.
- [10:19]
Jess Pride
Yeah.
- [10:20]
Jeff O'Neill
And so Moss, I mean, Rebecca and I argued about this a little bit when we were doing the books of 2015 power ranking. Right. Like, she didn't have it on her list. I had it number one. And some of that is in the year versus after. Like, what was you. When did that first come on your radar? Like, when did that clearly become a juggernaut in this space? How early were you aware of the Moss phenomena? I know there was Throne of Glass before that. I think she had another series before that, but this was a substantially different thing. Was that pretty quick? Did I get on your radar pretty quick? Or how did that evolve over time?
- [10:51]
Jess Pride
Well, I remember reading Throne of Glass on the light rail, going to work, and I, like, did not want to stop. And that was like, very briefly before a Court of Thorn and Roses came out. And that was initially shelved in ya. And I remember reading the description being like, this is not. This is not ya.
- [11:10]
Jeff O'Neill
This is. This is. This is. This is. This is something else.
- [11:13]
Rebecca Schinsky
Lot of people are surprised when they're picking up fourth wing thinking it's ya.
- [11:19]
Jess Pride
And so it. It was on my radar relatively early because I was already a Sarah J. Maas fan. And then I sort of started seeing it pop up on, you know, the center table at Barnes and Noble and that kind of thing. So it wasn't really. But I didn't. I feel like it didn't really explode until maybe 2018. 2019.
- [11:41]
Jeff O'Neill
Yeah.
- [11:41]
Jess Pride
And I don't know if it's because people were looking for those chunky books and that was like a great place to start, if it was the evolution of people from Throne of Glass to that series. Like, if. I don't know if people were. I. I don't know. Like, it's actually a very strange thing where it's like all of a sudden everybody was on the. On the train and I. I cannot.
- [12:07]
Jeff O'Neill
There's not like, there's not like a flash point. There's no, like, Yorktown or, you know, Boston Tea Party of.
- [12:13]
Rebecca Schinsky
I have a theory. I think this is round one. Or like, in large part, like romance at least, has historically been pretty recession proof. And I wonder if we're finding out that when you mix it with fantasy, it's extra, like just politics proof that like, by 2017, 2018, what you're talking about, we were like, deep into that first round of the Trump presidency and folks needed escape. And I wonder about, like, the combination of escapism that Fantasy and romance both offer, and the reliable tropes of both of them, but especially the reliable tropes of romance, that you know how it's going to end there, even if the beats of the story are surprising, you know you're going to end up, like, with a happy feeling. And I wonder about that. Like, this is my working theory is that, at least in large part, one of the reasons it was so ascendant right then had to do not just with social media, but with what was happening in the climate. Like, folks are reading dystopias right now because we are early in the second round of Trump, but, like, 1984 is not going to stay on the bestseller list for four years. I think we're probably going to see more of this, like, reaching for a genre as escape and comfort.
- [13:20]
Jess Pride
Yeah. And, you know, red, White and royal was the same. Like that. That was Casey's response to. To the first Trump administration. And, like, people saw it and were like, I. I would love to read about an alternate reality in which a woman is president and her Latino son falls in love with an English prince. Like, right. Like, let's.
- [13:47]
Rebecca Schinsky
Let's do it with Romantasy. One of my questions, like, I went into fourth wing thinking this is a romance with fantasy elements. And I think that was probably just a mistake on my part because it seemed to me really a fantasy with romance elements. And folks on the Patreon, like, Patreon members who listened to that episode, said, you know, like, I was just missing the point when I was like, this is just all the tropes, like, it's everything and the kitchen sink thrown together. And they were like, yes, that is the point. And it's all the tropes of fantasy with some elements of romance. Are, does the romance community have, like, a conversation going on about, like, how much of romantasy is about romance? How much of romantasy is about fantasy? Is that. Is this even a question worth asking?
- [14:28]
Jess Pride
Oh, like, this is a conversation that is regularly happening, I think. And I'm in so many random corners of romance that, like, maybe. Maybe it's just happening at, like, a. At different times in those different places. But, you know, there is, like, because of the portmanteau, there is a lot of question about, like, what is heavier? Because previous, prior to the portmanteau, we had romantic fantasy and we had fantasy romance, and they were technically two different things. Because romantic fantasy doesn't have to have a nhea. Like, it can just have a romantic element, but not, like, the romance. The People who are romantic together don't have to end up together. But fantasy romance is romance with fantasy elements. So it has to have that HEA and Romantasy is sort of pulling those two sides because there are people who come from the fantasy side and don't are like, what do you mean? It has to have an hea. And there are people coming from the romance side who are like, where is my H E A? And there's like a push and pull. And like for the most part the books that are being categorized as Romantasy are romance with fantasy elements, but some of them are being written by people who are more fantasy authors than romance authors. And it's pulling in the different ways.
- [15:58]
Jeff O'Neill
Yeah, I haven't seen, I haven't seen a readership get a big the romance community get a big surprise out of one of these romanticies at the end that it doesn't end as an HFN or hea. Like I don't think it just hasn't happened yet. And I don't know a lot of readers coming into Fourth Wing. I don't know that they expect necessarily all of. I mean now when you're selling millions of copies, it's a big tent and so all kinds of people are just wandering in. It's like, hey, they're elephants in here or whatever.
- [16:21]
Rebecca Schinsky
Dragons. There be dragons.
- [16:22]
Jeff O'Neill
Yeah, there'll be dragons. I wonder what percentage of people who just bought Onyx Storm and are super excited for the next one are like, this is going to have a happy romantic ending. And which percentage of them are like generally don't know how it's going to end. I mean the specifics versus the general. I'd be very, I mean yaros, I'm sure they're not going to screw with that, but one of these might try to trouble the line between romance and fantasy. Actually, I'm more bluish green than greenish blue.
- [16:45]
Rebecca Schinsky
I was just thinking of the blue green versus green blue comparison for those. And just to define terms for a second, for folks who aren't familiar with Romanasy, HFN is happy for now, which is they end the romance, the couple ends up together, but maybe not forever. But they're happy for now, as it sounds. And HEA is happily ever after, which self explanatory.
- [17:06]
Mint Mobile Announcer
This episode is sponsored by the man the Moment Demands. Written and read by Jason Wilson. Stick around after the show to hear an excerpt from the audiobook provided by our sponsors. Thomas Nelson. In a world where misinformation distorts the essence of manhood, and societal expectations push men into emotional incarceration. Bestselling author Jason Wilson offers a path to freedom. The man the Moment Demands will empower you to become the right man in every moment by embodying the 10 characteristics of the comprehensive man. With the man the Moment Demands, you'll learn how to embrace transparency and express the full spectrum of your emotions while maintaining self control and evolve beyond the alpha male myth. Through example, not intimidation, Jason Wilson teaches men how to break free from societal shackles and equips them to overcome life's many challenges in this new book. Again, stick around after the show to hear an audiobook excerpt from the man the Moment Demands by Jason Wilson.
- [18:06]
Molly Masters
Today's Episode is brought to you by HarperCollins, publisher of Bibliotherapy books to guide you through every chapter of life. By Molly Masters through turbulent times, stories keep us afloat, books console us, feed our souls and open our eyes to worlds, possibilities and experiences. Many of us have even been self medicating with books without identifying the practice as bibliotherapy. Whether you are in the throes of first love or the depths of heartbreak, embarking on a new beginning or questioning which path to take, use this curated collection to lose yourself in literature and discover the books that will always matter to you. This guide includes celebrated classics as well as overlooked modern masterpieces with a focus on underrepresented voices and Author Molly Masters founded AFRA Book Club originally Books that Matter, which is an award winning and globally recognized literary gift brand that puts women's writing in the spotlight. Molly was listed in Forbes 30 under 30 in 2022 and was named Female Startup of the Year. Make sure to check out Bibliotherapy by Molly Masters and Thanks again to HarperCollins for sponsoring this episode. Today's Episode is brought to you by Sourcebooks. Landmark Publisher of Babylonia By Constanza Casati from the author of the best selling Clytemnestra comes another intoxicating excursion into ancient history, bringing to life the brutal and captivating world of Assyria, one destined to rule it all. This is a story of an orphan girl raised on the outskirts of an empire. The governor she married and the king who loved them both eyebrow wiggle. Caught up in politics and violence, she trains in war and diplomacy, and with each move she rises in rank, embroiled in a game of power, desire and betrayal until she ascends to the only position that will keep her safe, that of Queen Babylonia. Brilliantly weaves myth and ancient history together to Give a voice to Semiramis, the only female ruler of the Assyrian Empire. This spellbinding story charts her captivating ascent to a throne no one promised her, but that she took. Okay, make sure to check out Babylonia by Constanza Casadi. And thanks again to Sourcebooks Landmark for sponsoring this episode.
- [20:23]
Jeff O'Neill
So how about some. Oh, go ahead, Jess. I was going to get to some fourth wing, like. Or like if you're into fourth wing. Or maybe not. What are some things in that general cloud to try book. But finish up on the other thought there.
- [20:35]
Jess Pride
I'll just add one final thing that kind of throws us romance readers who even when we read Connected series, usually it's a different couple in each book. A lot of the romanticy that's happening is like fourth wing is the same couple across books. So we don't have to have the hea at the end of the first book as long as we know that the series will conclude with one. But it's still a little jarring when you. When you finish the first book and it's like.
- [21:06]
Rebecca Schinsky
Yeah, there's not usually a cliffhanger at the end of a romance.
- [21:10]
Jeff O'Neill
All right, how about some read alikes or where do you want to go for people who maybe want to read outside of the fourth wing bubble or inside of it even? Jess, what would you recommend they check out for things in that area?
- [21:22]
Jess Pride
So I have a couple very, very different in their own right. The first one I want to throw out because I want everyone to read it is that time I Got Drunk and Saved a Demon by Kim.
- [21:33]
Jeff O'Neill
I saw this was this two years ago last year. When was this?
- [21:37]
Jess Pride
The first one came out a few years ago. She actually self published it and then got a traditional. Got a traditional contract and released. Re. Released it with different covers. So this one, it's hilarious, irreverent fantasy. And, you know, it's Second World. You've got a woman, her name is Cinnamon, and she and her family have a spice farm, right? Her best friend's name is Bri and they're cheese makers. Like, it is literally spicy. Literally spicy. And Cinnamon is walking home drunk one day, one night, and there's like a monster and she like throws Cinnamon at him because the only thing she has on her and like releases him from this curse that has been on him for hundreds of years. And he's like, hey, you have to help me, like, kill the witch that has cursed all of us. Not. Not human. And she's like, okay. So they go on a quest to kill the witch and it's also very spicy, but it's also got this element of fantasy and dragons, and it's one of the not school fantasies that I have seen that I definitely recommend. So that time I got drunk and Saved a demon by Kimberly Wilson.
- [22:59]
Rebecca Schinsky
Can we stop there for a second on the not school fantasy? Because that was also something Jeff and I bumped into. Reading Fourth Wing was like, I said, this is Harry Potter with boning. And it seems like a lot of the fantasy, like, popular fantasy series do center on some magic school or some school for wizards. So what are you talking about when you're talking about not school fantasies? And where else should folks go for that kind of flavor?
- [23:22]
Jess Pride
So, yeah, there is this thing that there's some kind of school. Like, even Kushel has a school element where. Because it's a great way to bring people together, but there are other methods, and usually it's a quest of some kind that has been thrown at Fellowship. Yeah. So it's like you've got the Harry Potter school or the Tolkien quest, and one that I have not finished yet. So I can't tell you what the con continuation is going to look like, But Rachel Housel hall wrote her first Romantasy book, and I've been looking at it a lot because she's coming to our Tucson Book Festival soon, and it's called the Last One. And it's about a young woman who wakes up. She has no memories. She's like, I don't know who I am or what I'm doing here, but I know that I need to get to this place to get my answers. And she meets a very attractive, very skilled blacksmith who she asked to help her on her quest. And it also turns out that he annoys her to no bit. Like, to no end. So we've got, like, that set up. So, you know, there's always got to be the actual romance tropes to go with the fantasy tropes in a good Romantasy. And everybody loves hating to dating, enemies to lovers, whatever you want to call it.
- [24:58]
Rebecca Schinsky
Hating to dating. That was before. That's great.
- [25:02]
Jess Pride
That was. That was what drew me into Fourth Wing, actually, because it was like, oh, man, they hate each other. Gonna be so great when they finally did. Like, right? So, but then. Then the actual, like, politics of everything sort of, like, got in the way. And I was like, this is not what I was. I'm here for. I just want to see dragons and. And people falling in love. But sometimes. Sometimes the politics are interesting. Sometimes they're just. They Take over.
- [25:27]
Jeff O'Neill
Yeah, that's a tricky balance. Right. Because the world building is a part of the fantasy genre. Like, that's one of the expectations of fantasies that you do some minimal or quite extensive world building and then you have interpersonal relationships and the road. Like, there's a lot to juggle, I guess. Romantic. See, that's one thing that's becoming clear to me. It's like you've got expectations flying around all over the place and how you weight the different things and how much time you spend really can. You know, there's enough dials that there's infinite possibilities already within either genre. But like you're adding these dials of romance and the dials of fantasy. So that I think it might be even more difficult now for someone who is looking for specific reading experience to know what they're getting because there's so many variables. And I know that's one thing that's really useful for people on social media is like, what tropes do you like? Spice levels? Like other kind of like, like, what do you get? How are people finding these now? Like, what are people looking for now? What are you seeing as the ascendant tropes or storytelling conventions or genres that are especially popular now that maybe you would have been surprised by five or 10 years ago?
- [26:33]
Jess Pride
People are really into morally gray love interests. And so like the, the big thing with Acotar is the fact that there's like sort of like a shiny fairy and a darker fairy and it's like, who? So. And that's. That's happening in more than just Roman. That's happening kind of all over the place. People are into mafia and demons and like all, all of these, like, sort of darker people that are like, not.
- [27:02]
Jeff O'Neill
Bad, but I mean, they're not, they're morally gray, so they're not like Vito Corleone necessarily, but like maybe someone who's a lower level henchman that maybe kind of looks sideways at the. Like, maybe. Maybe they've got a heart of gold, maybe they don't. That kind of a situation.
- [27:15]
Jess Pride
Yeah, absolutely. Although some, some folks are like really into the veto.
- [27:20]
Rebecca Schinsky
I was just thinking, like, I don't think you want to Google Tony Soprano fan fiction, but I'm sure it exists.
- [27:25]
Jeff O'Neill
Well, I'm just saying those aren't morally gray people. I mean, maybe, maybe I'm a puritan at heart, so maybe that's okay. Morally. I do see that all the time that people are into that.
- [27:34]
Rebecca Schinsky
Is that connected to. I'm seeing dark romance as well, but that's more like he's a serial killer and he comes after her, but they still fall in love.
- [27:43]
Jess Pride
Yes. And actually. Okay, so I have to tell you about this book that I like completely outside of the Romantasy conversation. I was not expecting to love it as much as I did, and I just happened to pick it up because people were talking about it and it's called Lights Out. And the audiobook is the superior method of reading it, but I'm sure the text is fine. And it is about a nurse and her stalker. And some kind of.
- [28:11]
Rebecca Schinsky
Our eyebrows both just went all the way up.
- [28:14]
Jess Pride
Huh? Yeah. So there, there are people who would not be able to successfully get me into a book about a nurse and her stalker. But for one thing, it's dual point of view, which means we get both of their perspectives. And you understand that her stalker, he's okay. Like, he's still stalking her, but we don't fear for her life.
- [28:35]
Jeff O'Neill
Yeah.
- [28:36]
Jess Pride
Like, so there's all of that, but also it's just like, there's banter involved. She, she kind of guesses who he is early on. And that also helps me get through it because it's like, but it's, it's just so cleverly written and, like, fun.
- [28:55]
Rebecca Schinsky
Who's it by?
- [28:58]
Jess Pride
It is by Nevesa Allen. It's got a blue skull on the COVID if you're ever looking for it. And so I just, like, I, I actually wrote about this on Book Riot. I discovered I like dark romantic comedy. Like, if it's like all dark and he's just like, you're mine and I'm never, you're, I'm never letting you go. I, I, that's not for me. I am, I am happy for those of you who love it, but that's not for me. But if it's also funny, I'm down. And I don't know. I don't know how that happens.
- [29:28]
Jeff O'Neill
I can't even think of a cultural comp or something like that. I'm struggling to think of analogy and some other thing that I know if that's really interesting.
- [29:35]
Rebecca Schinsky
Yeah, that's like, there's not a Nora Ephron equivalent.
- [29:38]
Jeff O'Neill
No, no, no, no. Not really.
- [29:42]
Jess Pride
Like, maybe something like Barry, which I haven't seen but I've heard has, has a little bit of a funny.
- [29:48]
Rebecca Schinsky
Yeah, Barry is. I've, I had watched the whole thing and really loved it. And there is like, the romance is a very small part of the story. But, like, he's a former, like, he's a former military guy who now is a hitman but. And like, is trying to get out of the life, becomes an actor and he meets a woman in his acting class and they start a relationship that goes all kinds of ways. But I think you probably could classify like that storyline of Barry as dark romance or morally gray. That's really interesting.
- [30:22]
Jeff O'Neill
Gross. Point blank. I'm really pulling one out of my bag. Remember that movie where he's an assassin and he goes back to his high school reunion and tries to get with his old flame? I think that's mini driver in that movie. That's some real 90s core stuff for you out there. Everyone that's listening to that. All right, Jess, where how about something that was a pleasant surprise to you recently? A new discovery that you. You were taken aback by in a good way. Oh, I didn't prep. I didn't prep. So she's doing this live, folks. So just. This is. This is podcasting, baby.
- [30:54]
Molly Masters
Today's episode is brought to you by Flat Iron Books, publisher of Brook Shields Is Not Allowed to Get Old by Brook Shields. Brooke Shields has spent a lifetime in the public eye, growing up as a child actor and model. Her every feature was scrutinized, her every decision judged. Today, Brooke faces a different kind of scrutiny, that of being a woman of a quote, unquote certain age. And yet, for Brooke, the passage of time has brought freedom. At 59, she feels more comfortable in her skin, more empowered and confident than she did decades ago in those famous Calvin Kleins. Now in Brooke Shields is not allowed to get old. She's changing the narrative about women in aging. This is an era, in this Brooke, when women are reclaiming agency and power, not receding into the shadows. These are the years when we get to decide how we want to live and when we get to write our own stories. Make sure to pick up Brooke Shields Is Not Allowed to Get Old by Brooke Shields. And thanks again to Flatiron Books for sponsoring this episode.
- [31:54]
Brook Shields
Today's episode is brought to you by bookshop.org's new ebook store. Support local independent bookstores, even when you read digitally. So Bookshop.org's new ebook store lets you instantly access thousands of digital titles while supporting independent bookstores with every purchase. Their seamless platform brings together the convenience of digital reading with the mission of indie bookselling. Whether you're commuting, traveling, or simply prefer reading on your own device, you can now build your digital library while directly supporting local bookstores. Shop on bookshop.org and discover a reading future that's both both digital and fiercely independent. Thanks again to bookshop.org for sponsoring this episode.
- [32:38]
Jess Pride
Well, okay. So also away from the romantasy conversation, I finally picked up the KISS Countdown by Eddie Easton. And like, you always hear about romances with astronauts and then I'll come. But this is like, this is the first time I've actually picked one up and I think this is her, her debut. I might be wrong, but I'm pretty sure it is. And it was like, it doesn't read like a debut, if that, if that makes sense. It like, it's like, it's very skillfully written. There's a lot going on. The setup is an astronaut and an event planner run into each other in a cafe, literally. And later she pretends that he's her boyfriend when she runs into her ex. And then they like make this agreement to fake date and he lets her live in his house because he's going to Mars or the moon or something. And so there's also like all of this family stuff going on. His mom isn't happy that he's leaving and potentially never coming back because anything could happen. She's got, she's got issues with her mom's chronic illness. Like, so there's like all of this going on. But it's so well done that it, it's very, still very romantic between the two of them. And it's just like it was a lovely book and I'm looking forward to the next one, which I think comes out.
- [34:06]
Jeff O'Neill
Yeah. March 4th. I'm just looking at Kiss Countdown was her first. And the Love simulation, which is her next one, comes out March 4th.
- [34:11]
Rebecca Schinsky
That sounds super fun.
- [34:12]
Jeff O'Neill
This is going right into Michelle's. That's my partner, Jess that's going on to her nightstand. She doesn't know that yet. She loves, she loves stem romance. Romance, like the science, like the Ali Hazelwood stuff. That's her favorite kind of stuff. So astronauts are going to be really, really great for us.
- [34:28]
Rebecca Schinsky
When we were recording sometime earlier this week, Jeff was saying that he was looking at Goodreads most anticipated books of February. And especially because it's February and it's Valentine's Day, it's just like wall to wall contemporary rom coms. And he was commenting on how do you. They all look the same now. The covers all look the same. So how like I love a rom com and I read a couple of them every year and it's been a great experience and I would like to have more of them in my reading diet. But like, this is the Problem that I run into is if it's not a recommendation straight from someone I know who's like, yes, Rebecca Ali Hazelwood is going to be your jam. Or like, I know that I'm going to love Linda Holmes or, you know, Jasmine Guillory. Like, how do I look at all of those books that look the same? How do I look? Scroll, like, take myself through the romance section at my local Barnes and Noble and how, like, figure out which ones I'm going to be into. Like, we have. They don't seem. There's, there's no visual way to distinguish one from the other at this point. And I don't have time to read 15 synopses, so what's a girl to do, right?
- [35:34]
Jess Pride
I, I go to Barnes and Noble or, you know, another bookstore that has a romance section and my eyes cross because I'm just like, there are so many books, books. I don't know which ones I have, which ones I want, which ones I like, need to read, which ones I've never heard of. And honestly, like, the best bet is to, to follow folks and, and see what they're talking about. You know, like, I, I get the bird's eye view because I write the, the monthly new releases list for Book Riots so I can see what's coming up and put things on my list to, to, to read for the future. But there are so many and they all look the same.
- [36:16]
Rebecca Schinsky
That's validating coming from a pro.
- [36:21]
Jess Pride
And, you know, as someone who, like especially this year is trying not to just read my favorites. Not to just read, you know, all of the Ollie Hazelwood, all of the Emily Henry. Like, it's hard to like, say, is this a new author? Will I like them? You know, like blurbs maybe or, you know, best selling always helps. But then what do you do? Right?
- [36:48]
Jeff O'Neill
Yeah. Then what do you do?
- [36:49]
Jess Pride
So sometimes it's just kind of luck of the draw. You look like a cover is worth a thousand words sometimes. And sometimes I just go, oh, that's a new book by an Asian American author with two women on the COVID I'm going to read that. So.
- [37:07]
Jeff O'Neill
Well, maybe that's right. I mean, maybe it's. I think a lot of it is on the COVID in that regard. Who are the people on the COVID What are they doing? What is their work attire? Like, you're getting a lot of information and you're not. I guess what Rebecca is saying is when Rebecca and I read more literary fiction, contemporary fiction does. We do. The COVID design is a lot more about the Vibe. I think it's trying. It doesn't. It's not trying to tell you anything about the plot. Right. You're trying to get a sense of the vibe. We were talking about something that if it had a different cover yesterday, I would have, think, would have thought would sound like commercial romance. But because of COVID design and packaging, it feels like upmarket literary fiction categories are useful. That's all that they are. They're not real, immutable, whatever. Everyone knows that. Please don't email me@podcastbookright.com but it does seem to me that for the commercial romance, this big category that's super popular, the information that a lot of people are looking for there, I just think, Rebecca, that's not the information. Information you care about. Like, maybe that's it. Is it more literary? Is it more funny? Is it more longing? Like, you're not going to get that information. You're going to get very much like almost hieroglyphics. Like, there's. They're. They're drinking lattes and they're next to an office building. Well, that's probably an office or something, you know, like, it is what it is.
- [38:19]
Jess Pride
Yeah.
- [38:19]
Rebecca Schinsky
I think this is the. The fundamental struggle of being, like, primarily a lit fic and like, upmarket fiction reader who, like, I like to go for little swings, whims in the genre pools, but I have a hard time and I think a lot of folks are like that or want to be more exploratory in their reading and try out more genre. But, like, if you can't read the hieroglyphics of the genre, focused covers, or if the hieroglyphics don't give you the kind of information you're looking for. Because, yeah, I'm going for, like, I want a rom com, but I want it to be well written and for the people to feel real and like, it's a bonus if the Heroine is not 22 years old, because now I'm twice that person's age. You know, like all those kinds of things. Like Linda, Linda. What I want is just like Linda Holmes core forever, I think, but like, in variations with, you know, people of color and people with disabilities. And like, I want the whole, like, diversity of romance reading experience. And it's hard to. I guess it's just hard to get that when you only swim a couple laps in the romance pool every year. But I think this is probably a me problem and not a genre problem. But I was really. I was holding out like, a little hope that you would have A magical answer on how to decode those covers.
- [39:30]
Jess Pride
Well, one of the problems is the hieroglyphics aren't always the same because even the publishers aren't speaking the same language with their covers. And some are trying to follow certain trends and some are trying to do something different. And some are making like really silly looking covers with people with no faces. Like just the outline of a head but no face. Sorry, I have big feelings about those. And some are bad news for you.
- [40:05]
Jeff O'Neill
About literary fiction covers, Jess. Terrible news.
- [40:10]
Jess Pride
Some are making these like beautiful, like hearkening back to the painted covers of the Clinch era. And then like Harlequin, like, I'm actually going, I want more people to be reading Harlequin categories in part because they do a photo shoot for every single book. And their covers are some of the best out there. When you, when you're looking for the information that you're trying to get.
- [40:37]
Rebecca Schinsky
Will you talk a little bit about category romance? This was when I was a bookseller, like 15 years ago. It blew the discovery that category romance existed and how many categories there were like, blew my mind. And I have a feeling that there's only more of them now. Like, how do those category romances differ or what makes them distinct from maybe the more commercial contemporary stuff we're seeing?
- [40:59]
Jess Pride
Sure. So when we talk about category, we're usually talking about Harlequin. A couple of the other publishers have like category style publications. But Harlequin is like the be all and end all of it. And what it is, is very tightly written, shorter romance novels in certain categories. They have historical, they have contemporary. They have two contemporary, two, three or four contemporary. Actually, like one is present, which is like the big fancy, everybody's rich and in fancy locations kind of places. So like, you know, meeting the Italian magnet is going to be the name of that one or something like that as a romance. Yes, exactly. There's suspense ones. They have an inspired line which is inspirational and they have like inspired suspense. Like you can go really deep into what they have and what it. Like they have like all of the books have to follow the beats. Like the, the formula of romance has certain beats. And if you're writing outside of category, you can sort of play with those. But you, you have to follow those beats. When you're writing a category romance, it's like heavily edited, very tightly written, but the people who write them are some of the best at the craft because of that. And a lot of them write three or four books a year. So it's, it's It's a great way to start reading romance if you're trying to figure out where to go because you you can very easily know what you're getting and figure out what interesting yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [42:46]
Jeff O'Neill
We've got a few minutes left. I know you had some stuff you wanted to hit. Did we? What's left on your punch list, Jess? We don't want to let you go without making sure you got your your soapbox takes out anything left on your get off your chest list.
- [42:57]
Jess Pride
Actually, I think like category romance and Romantasy has been around for a long time were kind of like the two big things I wanted to make sure people knew about and you know, like just actually mass market in general because they're trying to kill it and I wanted to survive. Mass market romances still exist. They are still a thing. They have great people who are writing them. Please check out a mass market romance.
- [43:23]
Jeff O'Neill
That's terrific, Jess. Thank you so much. Thank you all so much for listening. Show notes bookriot.com Listen, Rebecca, I can tell has been scratching down all the titles Jess has been talking about. Jess, where else can people find you around BR and other places on the Internet?
- [43:37]
Jess Pride
Sure. I. You can always find my byline on Book Riot and I am the co host of the Women Romance Podcast which comes out every other week. You can find me talking about various things on socials. I'm mostly on Blue sky at Jess's Reading. I am also on Instagram and threads sometimes S underscore is underscore reading.
- [44:01]
Jeff O'Neill
Put those in the show notes too. We should have you come back sometime and talk about your I don't. I don't actually know you run help run a book festival. What's your relationship to the Tucson Book Festival? How you how does that work?
- [44:12]
Jess Pride
I am on the book and author committee for it, which is a collection of volunteers who does a lot of the heavy lifting. So I am, I am the romance committee of that.
- [44:25]
Rebecca Schinsky
You know, if you're going to have a committee of one, they couldn't do better than you.
- [44:30]
Jeff O'Neill
Yeah.
- [44:30]
Jess Pride
So I'm always excited to help put that together every day.
- [44:34]
Jeff O'Neill
That sounds like a good time and a lot of work as most things that are event driven tend to be. Jess, thank you so much. Choose an email podcast book riot.com we'll talk to y'all later.
- [44:49]
Mint Mobile Announcer
Thanks so much for listening this week. We hope you'll enjoy this excerpt from the man the Moment Demands by Jason Wilson. Thanks again to our sponsors at Thomas Nelson.
- [44:58]
Jason Wilson
That's when I began to learn what it means to be a comprehensive man, a phrase I coined in 2018 when writing my first book, Cry Like a Man. Back then, I was unsure how men would receive this message of comprehensive manhood. The dedication read to every man who is tired of not being able to say he is tired. Within days of the book's release, men began posting pictures on social media of themselves proudly holding their copies. It was like the idea of Cry Like a Man was a long kept secret hoarded in the hearts of men worldwide. This reception was truly a message from the Most High to liberate his men from emotional incarceration and encourage them to become comprehensive men. So why did we men allow ourselves to become imprisoned in the first place? Who you were created to be Prior to gaining deeper awareness of who the Most High created me to be, I yielded to the culture distorted ideas of manhood. Instead of understanding the value of being a comprehensive man, first as a younger man and then as a husband, I allowed my self perception to be shaped by culture. During the 1980s, it seemed as if every boy in my community aspired to be the hyper masculine male or simply felt the pressure to assume that Persona to be accepted. I adeptly played the role, but I was never truly a thug. I since transformed that word into an acronym that accurately captures who I was at the time. A traumatized human unable to grieve. But this reality of repressed trauma explains the tense demeanor and the hair trigger reactions we often witness among many of our brothers who still wear thugs as a badge of honor. Think about it. In the African American community, we don't brag about living in a safe neighborhood. Instead, we boast about growing up in a dangerous one. Many say proudly, I almost got shot yesterday. But no one can live a healthy life in that reality. The age old adage it takes a village to raise a child holds true. But a traumatized village raise little boys to become comprehensive men. Here's the good news. Though the script is not fixed, it can be amended. We have the power to redefine manhood in a way that embraces emotions and authentic expression. We can create a world where young boys are free to grow into men without the burden of stifled emotions. A world where intergenerational healing, not intergenerational trauma, is passed down. But this shift requires courage. The courage to unlearn, to question, and to embrace change. Unsure if this shift is even possible, I know firsthand that it is, because I've been in the trenches of life with men of all ages for the last two decades. In the heart of Detroit, Michigan. I founded the union in 2003, a faith based nonprofit dedicated to the healing of youth and the fortifying of families at the core of community transformation. My wife joined me as the Executive Director and together we have impacted over 17,000 lives. With her at the operational helm and me steering our strategic vision. Our team of unwaveringly dedicated individuals has driven profound community change. My passion for helping misguided African American boys led me to establish the Cave of Adullam Transformational Training Academy Kata. In the Kata we teach, train and transform uninitiated boys into comprehensive men of the most high men who are physically conscious, mentally astute, and spiritually strong enough to navigate the pressures of this world without succumbing to their emotions. When One of the Kata's videos went viral in 2016, garnering over 350 million views worldwide, it opened doors to remarkable opportunities, including representing the Kata at President Obama's My Brother's Keeper showcase at the White House. The hit TV show this Is Us featured our work in a widely viewed and award winning episode. Then in 2018, renowned actor producer Laurence Fishburne's film company Cinema Gypsy produced a documentary showcasing my story of working with young men. The film debuted at the Tribeca film festival in 2022, captivating audiences and earning prestigious accolades including Best Feature Documentary. During this time I also authored two best selling books, Cry Like a Man and Battle Cry, which introduced the idea of emotional incarceration and offered strategies to help men begin to break free from their internal constraints. I mention this because all the attention has created an opportunity for us to deepen the conversation about what it means to be a man today. For example, when I was a panelist at Lenard Charlemagne McKelvey's Mental Wealth Expo in New York, the moderator posed a thought provoking question to me. Jason, how would you define a man? A simple question with complex implications. Without hesitating, I responded, you can't. My audacious reply surprised the moderator, fellow panelists and attendees. As everyone leaned in with curiosity, I passionately expressed, once you've allowed someone else to define you, you can never be all you were created to be. After that moment of clarity on stage, the fire that had smoldered within me ignited once again. This discussion, along with the response to Battle Cry, affirmed the urgency and importance of writing this book. I realized we needed to further explore the intricacies of who we are as men, the impact of societal pressures, and the journey to help us reclaim our authentic selves. Men, it is time to eradicate the societal norms, cultural expectations and stereotypes that confine and define us all within one rigid masculinity.