Goodreads Choice Winners, NYT 10 Best, and Spotify Wrapped for Audiobooks

Summary

Book Riot – The Podcast

Episode: Goodreads Choice Winners, NYT 10 Best, and Spotify Wrapped for Audiobooks
Hosts: Jeff O’Neal and Rebecca Schinsky
Guest: Katie Del Rosario (Spotify Audiobooks)
Date: December 8, 2025

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Overview

This episode dives headfirst into some of the biggest book-related events and lists at the end of 2025. Jeff and Rebecca break down the prestigious New York Times 10 Best and 100 Notable Books of 2025, analyze Goodreads Choice Award results, and highlight unique features from NPR’s Books We Love. The second half of the show (starting at [35:25]) features a lively, data-packed interview with Katie Del Rosario, Associate Director of Audiobooks at Spotify, focusing on the inaugural Spotify Wrapped experience for audiobook listeners, major trends in audiobook consumption, and their own personal listening favorites of the year.

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Main Topics and Discussion Points

1. Reflections and Book News Roundup

• Best Books List Season ([01:22])
  • Jeff reflects on the “last call” nature of end-of-year book lists: “This is the book Internet equivalent of buying your gifts on Christmas Eve.”
  • The hosts preview upcoming topics, notably Spotify’s inclusion of audiobooks in Spotify Wrapped ([01:49]).

2. Spotify Wrapped Age Discourse and Family Playlist Politics ([02:06])

• Spotify Wrapped’s “listening age” feature amuses and confuses, sparking a tangent about how musical (and now potential reading) age might be calculated:
  • Jeff: “I listened to a lot of jazz from the late 50s, like an 85-year-old, apparently.”
  • Rebecca: “It is a very up two minds situation when wrapped comes around every year… I spent the entirety of March listening to the new Jason Isbell album just on repeat. And that'll bork your data for the whole year.”
  • A humorous aside on sharing Spotify accounts with spouses and the logistical nightmare of separating playlists ([03:01]).

3. The New York Times Notable Books and Top 10 ([10:37]–[19:32])

a. How the Lists Work—and Don’t Work

• Rebecca confesses she forgot how the NYT lists are constructed: “The Notables contain the top 10. It kind of functions as a long list or a short list, basically.” ([11:29])
• Audition by Katy Kitamura snub noted—leading to thoughtful debate on the Times’s mysterious criteria for ‘notability’.
• Jeff questions, “If it’s notable, they have to be notable... Or it has to be your best list… because I think this mishmash gets us confused and other people confused.” ([13:16])
• Both hosts call for more clarity—suggesting badges or icons to indicate if a book is listed for literary excellence or newsworthiness.

b. Surprises and Snubs

• Surprising inclusions (e.g., Angel Down by Daniel Kraus, The Director by Daniel Kelman) and omissions (Kitamura’s Audition and even the National Book Award winner not present in the Notables).
• Rebecca: “It is very interesting that it can be an award winner and not a notable.” ([17:47])

c. The Fantasy League Angle

• Hosts track how their fantasy picks performed in relation to the actual lists ([15:04]).

4. Other Big Book Lists

a. NPR’s Books We Love ([20:02])

• Rebecca highly recommends NPR’s interactive, filterable list: “If you are stumped on what to read or what to buy for somebody… a great way to narrow down some gifting.”
• Jeff adds, “The experience is really great. NPR continues to do a really nice job over there.” ([21:53])

b. Goodreads Choice Awards—A Lukewarm Analysis ([21:53])

• Jeff floats: “How about we don’t [talk about them]?” pointing out their tendency toward safe, unadventurous favorites due to voting mechanisms.
• Rebecca: “It’s just the most predictable of the lists every year because of the regression to the mean reasons.”
• The hosts analyze vote totals and patterns, discussing why Romantasy doesn’t dominate overall votes as much as expected. Rebecca theorizes: “There are a whole bunch of romantasy titles that are all selling like several thousand copies each, but there’s so many of them.”
• Noteworthy: Frederick Backman’s My Friends dominated fiction voting, and surprising entries include The House of My Mother by Sharifranke.

c. Washington Post’s List

• Rebecca shouts out Ruth by Kate Reilly’s inclusion: “This is the only list I’ve seen it appear on. And I’m just delighted for her to get those shouts.”

5. The Book World’s Human Side ([09:01])

• Humorous digressions about Sheboygan, Wisconsin and listener emails, adding a personal, bookish warmth to the episode.

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Featured Interview: Spotify Wrapped for Audiobooks

[Starts at 35:25]

Introduction: Spotify Does Audiobook Wrapped!

• Rebecca: “This is the first year, if you’re an audiobook listener on Spotify, that they have included your audiobook data in Spotify wrapped.”
• Katie Del Rosario (Spotify Audiobooks) joins with fresh data and insights.

How Spotify Wrapped for Audiobooks Works ([36:01]–[41:31])

• First-ever inclusion of user audiobook data.
• User Experience: See number of books finished, top audiobook and genre, possible author clips, and more, if minimum listening thresholds are met.
• Interactive features mirror music wrapped—“turns your year of listening into really fun moments.”
• Editorial side: Playlists, video watch feeds, and five major curated lists (including best audiobooks, debuts, indie audiobooks, and trends).

Key Audiobook Trends of 2025

a. Romantasy and Spicy Romance Dominate

• Katie: “Romance, spicy romance and romantasy continue to be huge... The huge bulk of those titles are in those categories.”
  • Top listens include Fourth Wing and Iron Flame (Rebecca Yarros), Sarah J. Maas, Emily Henry, and Kelly Hart titles.

b. The Adaptation Effect ([42:24])

• Book-to-screen drives audiobook surges: over 60% of top 100 audiobooks were tied to adaptations.
  • Example: +600% in listens for The Hunting Wives by May Cobb after adaptation news.
• Rebecca: “So it sounds like you’re seeing evidence of that second pattern... exposed to the media or the idea that the adaptation is out there, and then they go to the book.”

c. Dystopian Anxiety & Tech/Nature

• “We've seen a really big uptick in what our team dubs dystopian anxiety this year… classic dystopian fiction [like] Fahrenheit 451 and I Who Have Never Known Men, as well as fiction and nonfiction focused around AI and other emerging technologies.” ([45:01])
• Top nonfiction picks include books on AI, optimism, and anxiety about the future.

d. Music Memoirs

• Strong year for music memoirs (Bono, Gucci Mane, Mark Hoppus).

e. Backlist Power

• Tolkien, Brandon Sanderson, and others make top author lists with mostly backlist titles, reflecting evergreen appeal.

Editorial Lists and Discovery ([57:04])

• Spotify produced 13 primary curated lists spanning:
  • Fiction, romance, self-care, mystery/thriller, history, horror, YA, memoir, sci-fi/fantasy, family/kids audiobooks, and more.
  • Family audiobook list is highlighted for holiday road trip recommendations.
• Data-driven lists track other slices: most repeated audiobooks (“12 Laws of the Universe” tops that chart, with Frog and Toad for kids); top debuts; top genres.

Notable Quotes & Data Highlights

• On the Goodreads Choice Awards:

  • Jeff ([22:05]): “It is in stands in notable contrast to what we were just talking about about curation and personal selection… You’ll probably find many of them [winners] at Target.”
  • Rebecca ([23:23]): “As a sum of its parts, the whole is not greater than the sum of its parts on this list. And it's just like, yeah, can we just not.”

• On Spotify’s Audiobook Wrapped:

  • Katie ([37:33]): “When you open up your audiobooks experience, you're going to see the number of audiobooks that you've listened to, the cover image of your top audiobook, your top audiobooks genre, and if you're eligible, clips from your top authors, which is super exciting.”

• On Book-to-Screen Adaptation Effects:

  • Katie ([43:17]): “More than a 600% increase in listening for The Hunting Wives by May Cobb and a 330% uptick in Ruth Ware's The Woman in Cabin 10 in the two weeks after the show’s premiere.”

• On Dystopian Anxiety Trend:

  • Katie ([45:01]): “People are anxious and they're looking for ways to figure out meaning with what's going on around us.”

• On Backlist Resurgence:

  • Katie ([55:36]): “It's really fun to see just how many authors are peaking in that global top authors list with only backlist.”

• Surprising Data Points:

  • House of My Mother by Sharifranke, both a Goodreads winner and a most-repeated audiobook—unexpected given its “heady” content ([58:59]).

Personal Audiobook Picks of the Year ([51:14])

• Jeff:

  • Carpool Detectives by Chuck Hogan (“a true story of four women who, during COVID, became amateur detectives and took up a cold case”)
  • Marriage at Sea
  • This American Woman by Zarna Garg

• Rebecca:

  • Mary Roach Replaceable You
  • Marriage at Sea (in print)
  • Mother Mary Comes to Me by Arundhati Roy (partial audio)
  • Full cast Hamlet (Folger Library)—her “hack” for Shakespeare appreciation

• Katie (Spotify):

  • Wild Dark Shore by Charlotte McConaughey (“the one that has stuck with me all year”)
  • Moderation by Elaine Castillo (“sharp, funny satire of the tech industry and a surprisingly charming love story”)
  • Vera or Faith by Gary Shteyngart (co-narrated with Shannon Tayo)
  • Everything is Tuberculosis by John
  • Jesus Land by Joel Kidd (on ‘90s evangelical youth culture)

Fun and Memorable Moments

• Playlist divorce jokes:

  • Jeff ([03:13]): “You don't need to get a divorce lawyer involved for your playlist. Come on, stay together for the playlist. At least till they're out of college.”

• Mothers-in-law “keeping Patricia Cornwell in business” ([05:23]), and a running meta-joke about which family members read which bestsellers.

• Sheboygan shout-out ([09:55]): “Shouts to Sheboygan. Sounds like an emo record.”

• Holiday romance reading:

  • Rebecca: “There's a Christmas tree in my living room right now and I just want to drink coffee and read a holiday romance.” ([33:17])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:04] – Episode intro and best-of-the-year list discussion preview
• [02:06] – Spotify Wrapped age jokes and playlist politics
• [10:37] – NYT Notables & Top 10 Beat: Methodology and Surprises
• [20:02] – NPR Books We Love overview
• [21:53] – Goodreads Choice Awards analysis—vote totals, predictability, Romantasy surprise
• [35:25] – Interview with Katie Del Rosario on Spotify Wrapped for Audiobooks
  • [36:01] – How dressed-up Wrapped works for audiobooks
  • [41:31] – Big 2025 audiobook trends (Romantasy, adaptations, dystopian, memoirs)
  • [47:28] – Top nonfiction audiobooks (data and editorial lists)
  • [51:14] – Personal audiobook picks from all three
  • [54:48] – Surprising user behaviors and most-repeated audiobooks

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Conclusion

This episode delivers smart, witty, and data-driven analysis of the major year-end book lists and their cultural context, while also offering a unique insider perspective on the audiobook world via Spotify’s first-ever audiobook Wrapped. Whether you want hot takes on the NYT and Goodreads lists or crave deep dives into what drives current audio reading trends, there’s something here for every book lover.

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Memorable Quote:
"[Spotify Wrapped] is a really rich experience. We hope that there's something that everybody can find to Listen to." – Katie Del Rosario ([41:31])

Transcript

[Rebecca Schinsky]

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[Katie Del Rosario]

That means your mom gets that cashmere.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

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[Jeff O'Neill]

We end this once and for all together on December 25th. We have a plan. It's a bit insane.

[Katie Del Rosario]

Everyone in.

[Jeff O'Neill]

He knows where we are.

[Katie Del Rosario]

Watch out.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Get ready for one last adventure. We stay true to ourselves, stay true.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

To our friends, no matter the cost.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Found you. Stranger Things, Season 5, Volume 2 begins December 25th only on Netflix.

This is the Book Riot podcast. I'm Jeff O'. Neill.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I'm Rebecca Schinsky. This is our 250th time talking to each other this week.

[Jeff O'Neill]

What else is there to say?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

It's late, it's Thursday, the wheels are coming off. But we've had a lot of book news this week. So here we are.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, I was writing today in books a few minutes ago and I was just like, seriously, folks, this is last call for best books of the year. You get them all in December 4th. This is the last time I'm linking to it. This is the book Internet equivalent of buying your gifts on Christmas Eve. We just. This is it. We'll run through a few here today. On the back half of the episode today, you're going to hear Rebecca and I talk to Katie Del Rosario of Spotify Spotify Audiobooks about what they've got cooking wrapped, other things going on, some data points. Really interesting conversation. So stick around for that.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, it was really fun. This is the first year, if you're an audiobook listener on Spotify, that they have included your audiobook data in Spotify wrapped. So she had interesting stuff to tell us about the trends that they saw, some groupings and genre stuff that they've done. Always glad to have those folks here.

[Jeff O'Neill]

We didn't ask her if they will give you your listening age for your books because.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Your music was both tough and affirming. Was it affirming for you?

[Jeff O'Neill]

85.

I said, you'll hear me say on that interview with Katie, I think I said it there, that my daughter came down and she got 64 as her listening age. And she listens to a lot of like 70s rock. Like her favorite band is Joan Jett. So like, I think they're sort of calibrating to what was popular when you were a teenager in your age. So I listened to a lot of jazz from the late 50s, like an 85 year old, apparently. So that's what happened to me over there.

[Katie Del Rosario]

Yep.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah. Mine was 46. We listened to a lot of late 90s stuff in this house. But Bob and I share a Spotify account. I don't know if we've talked about this before because we've shared it for too long to split it up.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Like, Michelle and I are in the same boat.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah. Every now and then I get the little pop up from Spotify that's like, hey, we have dual household things. But I have looked into this and one of us would have to give up the playlists or like duplicate them, and that's not happening.

[Jeff O'Neill]

You don't need to get a divorce lawyer involved for your playlist. Come on, stay together for the playlist. At least till they're out of college. At least till they're out of the house.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Right. It is a very up two minds situation when wrapped comes around every year. And like this year it was very boring because I spent the entirety of March listening to the new Jason Isbell album just on repeat. And that'll bork your data for the whole year. You do that with one album, you're cooked. But I was delighted to wake up this morning to a screenshot from you that you're reading, you're listening. Listening age was 85. Just really good stuff there.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Michelle listens to a lot of.

She actually has a different Spotify thing for work that she does sometimes, but she listens to a lot of classical when she's working a lot of Bach. And like, it's not going to give you a listening age of like 410 or something like that. It's just not going to do that. So I wonder what the oldest listening age you could get, because at some point the amortization or the actuarial tables. Pardon me, are going to be like, he's probably not 100, you're dead. Like, if I was listening to big band, like, if I was listening to Andrew Sisters all day long, they would be like, you know, we think you're 109.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I saw somebody today online speculating, like, how come I can't get my estimated age based on my audiobook habits. Or like, what if you could plug your Goodreads into something and it would tell you how old it thought you were. And especially you and I this year we'd be trending older, I guess, with the zero to older.

[Jeff O'Neill]

That's a great question. I don't know the answer to that because older people there is a stereotype and I don't know how this is true. I don't actually know that much about the actual data around retirees. We sort of know the median book reader in America is like a 40ish year old white woman of a certain socioeconomic class. But there's a stereotype, I guess I would say of like once you retire you're reading like James Patterson books and Nora Roberts or whatever. That might be true. I don't know what people who are reading Hamlet and maybe you're a college kid because you look more like someone who's in school.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

That's true. Maybe you would. That would be lovely. 85 in your music taste, but 22 forever in your literary heart.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I would get to be an 80 if I was reading Louis Lamour. Probably listening to a bunch of Louis Lamour.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

My mother in law is single handedly keeping Patricia Cornwell in business.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I don't think knowing how much money Patricia Cornwell has, it's not your mother, it's all the mothers.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, it's all of them. It's the mothers in law got together and they were. I don't know if anyone's mother reads Patricia Cornwell, but everyone's mother in law does, right?

[Jeff O'Neill]

That's true.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

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[Jeff O'Neill]

Style, every home Speaking of unintentionally besmirching people, I made an offhand reference to Sheboygan in a recent episode. Oh no, I don't actually remember it. I said something about Barnes and Noble Sheboygan. I don't know if.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Did you get emails?

[Jeff O'Neill]

I got one email. It was very kind. Someone saying, you know, having grown up in Sheboygan, I missed the cost of living. And it was very gentle. And I was like, people are everywhere. We have listeners everywhere Sheboygan. I looked up. This is my penance. Its nickname is the Malibu of The Midwest, which. Which be careful with blurb inflation. Speaking of, because there's a freshwater surfing culture there.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Fascinating. Yeah. Wisconsin has taken some strays from us this year. I know. We got emails after the conversation about enchiladas and a big glass of milk in twilight.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Listen, just because you're the dairy capital world doesn't mean you can drink a whole, whole milk with just anything. That doesn't give you license to just consume dairy with every cuisine without commentary. You could do it, but you're gonna hear about it.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

You're gonna hear about it. And that's apparently what we're here to do today.

[Jeff O'Neill]

So. Shouts to Sheboygan. Sounds like a lovely place.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Shouts to Sheboygan. Sounds like an emo record.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah. Shouts to Shabboy again. Sufjen Stevens, new record. Shouts to support.

Programming notes elsewhere. Yeah. Go check out to zero to well read.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

We did.

[Jeff O'Neill]

The canon contenders. By the time this show comes out, we'll have a new zero to well read. It's a surprise. It'll be timely. We're not going to spoil it here. We may have already spoiled somewhere else, but Rebecca is going to experience it in a different format tomorrow or tonight. That's your. That's your night.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

My. My loins are girded. My Kleenexes are packed.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, right. She is going to see the Running man, of course, starring Glenn Powell, based on the Stephen King novel.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I'm expecting a very emotional experience.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Would you like to continue cleaning up your mess you made out of what is not included in the New York Times Notable Books?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

So, I mean, I assume I knew this in years past that the New York Times top 10 are contained within the notable books, but this year I forgot that I knew that. And so when they released their 100 Notable Books list last week, which we didn't get to talk about on the show because we were in gift writer recommendations mode. I wrote in today in books like, you know, man, sometimes it's really interesting look at these 100 notables and see what's not there because that can be a clue about what's in the top 10. And at the moment, I also think that I was trying to do some wish fulfillment. Like if we were to do some Jungian analysis on what happened, was conveniently forgetting that this is how this works. This year was that audition by Katy Kitamura was not in the 100 Notable Books. And I had to like, oh, well, then it can make the top.

[Jeff O'Neill]

It must. There's only one answer, right?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

There's only one Reason that audition cannot be near the top of this list. And it. And it is that it must be in the top 10. And bless him. Gilbert Cruz emailed me and was like, oh, sweetie. Oh, no. Oh, no. This is not how this works. The Notables contain the top 10. It. It kind of functions as a long list or a short list, basically. So the 100 notables came out. I was very sad to see that audition did not make it. But also the 100 notables. The Times does that they treat this list as like, what's interesting and noteworthy. It is not just what's best in the year I saw.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Does that make it weirder? That audition is not in it?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I don't know. Yeah, I don't know either because Audition is. It's very, very good. Like, I mean, we both loved it, but not like it's not notable inside what Katy Kitamura does, like, it's in the zone. It's really good. It's the best version of a Katie Kitamura book that I've encountered of her three. But it doesn't. I don't know.

[Katie Del Rosario]

I don'.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Know.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

They're trying to ring a lot of bells. Like, I kind of need to believe that if it were just 100 best audition would have been on there. But they've got stuff that was like, newsworthy, but for which the Times reviews were like, pretty middling. But it's newsworthy, so they're going with it. And I did see some what I think was unfair discourse of people being like, the New York Times has so much power. Their books should like, you shouldn't be able to make the Notables list unless your book was also well reviewed. And to that I say the New York Times gets to make whatever rules they want.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Sure. I'm not here to argue with what they're doing, but in terms of notable notability, I think, like, is the Doorman by Chris Pavone more notable? But that's on there is the Colony by Anakin Norlin. Like, it's. I think. I think you got to pick a lane.

[Katie Del Rosario]

Yeah.

[Jeff O'Neill]

If it's notable, they have to be notable. And therefore the 101st book that doesn't make it is less notable. No matter of quality or it has to be your best list because I think this mishmash gets us confused and other people confused.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I would like a. A little bit more to the descriptions so that you could get or like, I mean, their. Their reviewers don't do star ratings. Like I have lamented before that the movie critics can Do a like critics choice or what critic recommends something like that. And when you're reading a New York Times book review, like sometimes I can finish the entire review and not be totally sure like what the reviewer thought of it. I would love something among the notables list that's like this is here because we thought it was stellar or this is here because it was, um. Is it great? Is it notable? Is it both great and notable? Um, that would be helpful. It's interesting and weird because I think they intend it to be interesting and weird.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, I guess. Could we get a. How about this? How about you get a. Like there's two icons, right? There's.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

There you go.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Best, notable, newsworthy, notable and excellent. And we can tell. Is this a pick for quality or is it. Well, we. We have to include X because otherwise we don't capture the year in some particular kind of way. Like I don't know. I mean I haven't read all these books. They've read many more books than I have. There's a lot more people over there. You know, I am surprised, I think not having audition on here. And over time I'm still holding my audition stock. I think it'll be strange to not have a very good Katie Kitten. More book come out in a year and the New York Times did not include in their 100 note. I think in time that will seem very odd. But I could be wrong. I doubt it. But it could be for. There's a first time for everything.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

It's the one we decided to saddle up for this.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah. What else you want to say about the long list or the short list?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

It's a. I mean that long list is. It's big and interesting. Most of the titles that I expected to be there were there. Scored some points for myself in the fantasy league. I think you scored some points for yourself in the fantasy league. The top 10 though really interesting because they limit themselves to five for fiction and five for nonfiction. And I was writing in our flagship newsletter that you can be. Because it's such a small list, you can be a well read widely read reader and look at these some years and have read zero of them. They're just always are surprises. Angel down by Daniel Kraus. It gets to lead off the fiction list by virtue of starting with an A and that this is done alphabetically. But I haven't seen that list book on really any of the other best of the year lists. And it makes the Times Top 5 Fiction Books of the year. Very exciting. Which I know you also Said was Ames favorite book of the year.

[Katie Del Rosario]

Right.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

The Director by Daniel Kelman also have not seen a lot of action for that. The Loneliness of Sonja and Sunny is the one that I had bet money on.

Kind of surprised to see it in the top five for fiction. Like I had a like this is popular. People love it. It'll probably make the notables. But really interesting that that's in the top five. The Sisters by Jonas Hassan Kamiri and then really delighted to see Stonyard Devotional by Charlotte Wood. If Audition couldn't be on the list. My second favorite novel of the year is here. And then nonfiction kicks off with A Marriage at Sea, Mother Emanuel by Kevin Sack. Arundhati Roy's mother Mary comes to Me, Another house fave. There Is no Place for Us by Brian Goldstone and Wild Thing A Life of Paul Gauguin by Sue Prideaux. So real variety here. I've read three this year.

[Jeff O'Neill]

That's pretty good. I think I'm at three as well. I think artist biographies would go on my that's what I want to read when I'm retired list. I love artist biographies. There's never a real time to read them, but it's never a bad time to read them. But I always find myself wanting to like read the big Mondrian or the big Frida Kahlo or the whatever book that's going on. I have a question for you. Maybe I can't find it. I'm looking for it right now on the notable list. The National Book Award winning the True True Story of Raja the Gullible. So it can't be notable. Rebecca, if it won the National Book Award. Now, I know. I think we talked to Gilbert before about this, that maybe their list is locked before that comes out. But I think you've got to hold space. I'm sorry, Cynthia and Ariana. You got to hold space for the National Book. If you have. That's so weird. That is crazy.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

It is very interesting that it can be an award winner and not a notable. Like I think we've talked about it on the hot list for the Patreon that there are some, like, if you win an award, you automatically make it onto the hot list for a while now. It was interesting when the True True Story of Raja the Gullible won the National Book Award. I went like, the Times review was. There was not a Times review like Profiles of Rabi Alamuddine. And I always pay attention to what the Times chooses not to review. I think that's interesting. The PW Review I don't believe had a star. I don't think the Kirkus Review had a star. Like, other reviews of the book were pretty middling. So it's rather surprising from the literary establishment perspective for it to win. I understand how it wouldn't have made their just like draft list, but I do wonder about like, how far in advance is this locked? And is there no way to. Because the National Book Award was a couple of weeks ago. Like, is there no way to be like, okay, we have 99 of the hundred locked and then when we know what the National Book Award title is, we're going to slot it into the 100. It does feel like the big award winners should be on the notable list.

[Jeff O'Neill]

And in the header description, it doesn't say anything about news. It says all of us are passionate readers, but our tastes don't necessarily overlap. Discuss the stamp. This is about standouts, right? Again, it's a little unclear if you can stand out for being newsworthy as well. If this is editorial selection, there can be no gripes or. I'm not interested in griping that.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I think that's what it is. Like it's usefully vague to them.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah. Anyway, I think an interesting list. Not to tell them how to do their job, but you know, I need to make a podcast segment. What about the hundred most interesting or the 10 most difficult omissions.

Or, you know, tensions or the. Yeah, we're surprised they're not here either. Or you know, something like that because I think their cachet and their taste is such that hearing about the island of Misfit Toys could be enjoyable in its own right.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Left on the cutting room floor we.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Have the NPR, NPR's books we love here, the Washington Post, Goodreads. I also linked to Slade in the New Yorker. Today there's a Goodreads Choice Awards. Is there any of the other ones you want to talk about? Before we look at the Goodreads Choice.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Awards, I just want to highlight the NPR one. For folks like, if you have never seen an NPR Books We Love List list before, this is worth seeing. They do. This year it's 384 books from the year. It has dozens of filter categories that you can look at by themselves or combined. So you can do like book club ideas that are love and romance or young adult with eye opening reads and filter. Like you can just filter to your heart's content. There's a huge variety and it's now combined with all of their picks. Like you can look at just 20, 25. But there's a tab for every year going back to 2013 when they started doing this. And they're all huge lists. They're all filterable. It's just like if you are stumped on what to read or what to buy for somebody. This is a great, I think way to narrow down some gifting stuff because they also do have some under the radar picks. There are big titles that you've heard about. But to get to 384 books from this year, you're also talking about some stuff that like wasn't splashed all over all of the mainstream book coverage. It's just worth seeing and it must be a huge amount of effort. So I just, I appreciate them. I just want to give them some shouts every year.

[Jeff O'Neill]

This especially cool that if you select the filters they will stack. So I clicked on Funny Stuff and Identity and Culture.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah.

[Jeff O'Neill]

So then it presents nine books that fit both, which is interesting. We've got the Wilderness, we've got the Jeff Hiller book. We've got the new Alison Bechdel. So like you can. This is a really good I think gifting place to like you could say, okay, who am I buying for? That ticks a couple of these boxes like sports lovers and young Adult. Does it yield anything? Yeah, there's a pick. Kirby's Lessons for Falling by Laura Gao So it's a very cool. The experience is really great. NPR continues to do a really nice job over there. It's worth doing.

Goodreads Choice Awards I'd like to float this to you.

How about we don't. How about we don't Just in general. I mean.

It'S an interesting document. It is in stands in notable contrast to what we were just talking about about curation and personal selection. This is where the Goodreads editors they create a long list themselves and then everyone who is a member of Goodreads just sign up ruins it. It's just regression to the mean. And this is how I said if you find yourself in Target needing to buy a book this is a the list of winners is. You'll probably find many of them there. I think last year I said about the best selling books of the year. There was the least interesting best selling books of the year list ever. I can only imagine what our January Brenna has for us in store for Circanas books too. But this winning list I don't have anything to I'd Frederick Bachman, Taylor Jenkins Reid, Holly Jackson, Emily Henry, Onyx Storm. You do get the Schwab. You get the Grady Hendrix.

Onyx Storm for audio, there's a hockey young adult. There's the John Green. I think the surprise book of the year in this regard is the House of My Mother by sharifranke. We talk about the Katie here just a little bit too. And then how to Kill a Witch, which is reader's favorite history and biography. But I find myself unable to say one interesting thing about the list or the things therein.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

It's just the most predictable of the lists every year because of the regression to the main reasons. And I appreciate that Goodreads is trying and that the lists of like the long lists are more diverse. I think there is still work to do there, but it's still possible to land with a big boring list of winners. And that's not a knock on all these titles. I liked Atmosphere by Taylor Jenkins Reid. I liked Bury Our Bones in the Midnight Soil. I liked the Witchcraft of Wayward Girls by Grady Hendrix. You said Sunrise on the Reaping was great. Yeah, but just like the. As a sum of its parts, the whole is not greater than the sum of its parts on this list. And it's just like, yeah, can we just not. I think it's. It's just not useful to. I mean, I'm sure there is a kind of reader this is useful for. And there's no way for me to say this without sounding snotty, but I'm just not the reader. Like, I don't know what to do with it.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I guess if we're looking at surprises, this goes back to our fantasy draft a little bit. Like Katabasis did not win for favorite fantasy Barrier Bones didn't. It did so by 15ish thousand votes. I do look like they put the vote total on there because then you can see like the overall vote getter winner. They don't put them head to head. Like this is Sunrise at the Reaping with more than 300,000 votes. And so it destroys the rest of the fantasy title. Like Fearless by Lauren Roberts. We talked about selling what, a quarter million copies? Like that's how much of a juggernaut Sunrise at the Reaping really was.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

The fiction one is really interesting. Like Frederick Backman, My friends, wins with 167,509 votes. The next highest vote getter was Wild Dark Shore, 107,486. So 60,000 lower. Like 30%, 40% less.

[Jeff O'Neill]

That's. It's a. I mean it really shows. It's a great result for Wild Dark Shore to be in the conversation. But Bachmann is a juggernaut and the reviews of that were really good. Like 4.41, so.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

And like an interesting. An interesting year for the Correspondent by Virginia Evans. That's number three. That's been a big breakout. I'm really happy to see Sarah McLean these summer storms, her adult fiction debut there. But, like, she's trending ahead of Ocean Vuong. You got, you know, the Girls who Grew Big by Leila Motley Hart, the Lover, Cursed Lover, Cursed Daughters. Farther down, the Loneliness of Sonja and Sunny. Only 3,000 votes and just tons of ratings and tons of love for Kieran Desai. So the Frederik Backman of it all is weird and kind of surprising in a year where Wild Dark Shore was a bigger story and Sonia and Sunny was a really big story.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I mean, Backman's a brand you can tell by the book cover. Rebecca, like, is one where the name is bigger, as big as the title, and that tells you everything you need to know.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

And like, folks get these emails to come vote in the Goodreads Choice Awards. Who are that typical American heavy reader who read 10 books a year and they're picking up more of the, like, book clubby kinds of fiction and stuff you can find like on an in cap in Target at the airport. Frederick Backman is certainly one of those. And like, if you have to have read a book presumably to be interested enough to vote for it and there's just a higher likelihood there. But it's. I'm just. I don't know. Every year I care less and less what's going to win this.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Here's an observation. I think the winners. I think the shape of the results is what we're talking about. That becomes interesting. Here's a surprise to me. I was looking at just vote totals of like the top five in each category. I would expect for all the talk we hear about Romantasy, why do the top 5 vote getters not look like they got that many more votes than the top five fiction category? I don't understand. Is it. Where are the sales coming from?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, I mean, I. Onyx storm got about 130,000. Like not quite double. Like. Yeah, yeah. What the Frederik Bachmann did. It's a great question.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I mean, you take out the phenomenon one, right? Like just throw out the Onyx Storm because it's a one of one. But you look at like numbers five through 10, you wouldn't be like, oh my God, Romantasy is driving the industry. But that's what we hear all the time.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

My Guess about this actually is that there are a whole bunch of romantasy titles that are all selling like several thousand copies each, but there's so many of them.

[Jeff O'Neill]

It's a deep list.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, it's a. Yeah. There's just so many of them. The market is so full that attention rarely coalesces around any one. But there's a bunch of people picking up the latest like foiled cover, deckled edge thing that they come across and little pods of interest. But that means it's hard for anybody to rise above. I think it makes it decreasingly likely that we'll see anything else break out the way Rebecca Yarros did or Sarah J. Maas did because there are just so many that it's harder to rise.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Above because you would think if there are that many people. And I guess this also speaks to, I don't know what the voting patterns are. Does someone who votes in the Goodreads choice just come and vote in every category? So there's only so many votes in every pool and they're gonna be distributed differently. But I can't believe that, like.

Everyone has the same number of votes for favorite memoir or they're just voting for things they haven't read. I don't know.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Who knows?

[Jeff O'Neill]

Who knows. So there's that again. A good weather vein. But I'm not interested in just staring up at the clouds for most of the time.

[Katie Del Rosario]

Yeah.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

And just from the Washington Post list, I did just want to shout out that Ruth by Kate Reilly made their best books of the year. I really loved it. I talked about it in a front list foyer. I think a week that you were out of the show. This is the only list I've seen it appear on. And I'm just delighted for her to get those shouts. Ron Charles wrote a wonderful review of it.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Oh, yeah.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

And I really loved the book.

[Jeff O'Neill]

That's true. Terrific. We're going to save some of the more newsy stuff. There's a PW sales report, salary report, which I think is cool. I think that's worth a little more brain space than we're willing to or not. Not willing, but able to give it right now.

My front list foyer is not front list, but we're going to do this anyway in a minute. Anything else, Rebecca, you want to get to before we hit what we've been reading recently? And then we get to our conversation.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

No, let's go right into front list foyer. I'm ready.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Sponsored by Thriftbooks. And I'm. I'm so glad to say that if you, like me, were interested in doing a Tom Stopper deep dive this week like I did. That's where my reading went when I should have been reading a zero to well read book, which I'm now going to read all afternoon to prepare for tomorrow's recording.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Oh, buddy.

[Jeff O'Neill]

No, I'm. I'll be there. It's not that bad. But I should have been reading more on Tuesday night when I was gorging on Rosencrantz and Guildenston are dead. Arcadia. I got. I have a. I have Hermione Lee's magisterial biography that's been on my shelf. I just buy the Hermione Lee biographies whenever they come out, no matter whoever they're about.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

That's a good retirement project too.

[Jeff O'Neill]

You can find on thriftbooks a lot in print, I would say. You can get Rosencrantz and Guildenstern dead for 519, $5.19. In a very good paperback you can get Arcadia. That's my pick. For 539 you can get a hardcover. There's apparently, and I've not seen these like a multi volume complete Tom Stoppard. But volume five gets you Arcadia and the real thing. And Night and Day you can get the Invention of Love, that's hard to find, used. You know why? Because people hold on to it. Because it's amazing. You can get that for 1435 and then the Big coast of Utopia, which I am sad that I didn't get to see there. But there's a lot. I mean there's French's manuscripts here, but. But there's a lot of his plays that are available and circulating and used editions and nude ones too. But that's what I did. I read three Tom Stoppard plays and I wish I had read more. And I've marked a bunch of these as I'd like to buy when a used copy comes in. So I think I got myself towards my free reading rewards book here. I cash it in for Arcadia.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I'm doing Invention of Love over the weekend.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Oh, wonderful.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

When we're done with our homework here, that's going to be my reward.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Also, the Faber drama edition of Arcadia is beautiful. And you can get it for 5 bucks. You will spend no better 5 bucks I put on Facebook. Did I send it to you? I did. The story that was in the London time.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Incredible.

[Jeff O'Neill]

About a.

Cancer, an oncologist who went to go see Arcadia in the original London run in the 80s. And in that book, Tom Stoppard does his more erudite version of the Jurassic park chaos theory thing.

And the cancer doctor, he wrote this letter to the time sort of as a memory to Stoppard, saying that gave him an idea to think differently about how breast cancer was metastasizing and says Stopper probably doesn't know how many hundreds and thousands of lives he saved by giving someone an intellectual framework to think about their own problem differently. And Rebecca and if there's, if there's a better argument for art than that, I don't know what it is, nor do I want to know.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Art literally saving lives. Really incredible.

[Jeff O'Neill]

You can find that what you've been reading outside of homework.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I am just starting because now we've had a heavy week. We're doing two zero to well read recordings this week. So we're doing a lot of homework. So the thing I've been saving for myself, I love a holiday romance or two every year. And last year the series that I had been reading by Sierra Simone and Julie Murphy I think set in a little Vermont town called Christmas Notch last year that wrapped up. So this year I've been in the market for a new holiday romance. And thank goodness the Internet is rife with lists of holiday romances this time of year. So I picked up How My Neighbor Stole Christmas by Megan Quinn. It is the first book in a currently a two book series. This one came out a year or two ago. The second book is out now. All I know is that it's a holiday romance. Enemies to lovers and pretty spicy. I don't care about the tropes. Like what? Whatever you can give me. Whatever romance tropes, right?

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

It's just there's a Christmas tree in my living room right now and I just want to drink coffee and read a holiday romance. And this is the one that I'm going with.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Terrific. Beautiful. Wanted. Wonderful. With that. Up next is our interview with Katie Del Rosario of Spotify Audiobooks. You can find show notes book riot.com listen. She's an email podcast@book riot.com what day is Festivus? Maybe that festivish was the airing of grievances about Sheboygan. I think it was maybe. Today I'm here to listen with an open and penitent heart to any grievances anyone might have. Go listen to us on zero to well read. We're going to have a au courant selection for you coming out on Tuesday the 9th and then something else and then something else and something else. That that's what you get to know right now. Rebecca. Thank you.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Thanks. Y'. All. Have a good week. My name is Percy Jackson.

[Katie Del Rosario]

Getting in trouble is like breathing for me.

[Jeff O'Neill]

The hit series returns to Disney and Hulu. The danger the camp is under is greater than you can possibly imagine. For the key to our survival, three.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Of you must quest to the Sea of Monsters. Let's go do the impossible.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Percy. Percy Jackson and the olympians New Season 2 episode premiere December 10th on Disney and Hulu. Learn more at disneyplus.com whatson this episode.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Is brought to you by McAfee. I found this great place to stay this weekend. Click on the link and book it. Oh, wow. McAfee alerted me that this site is fake and even blocked it. Cybercriminals create fake sites to steal your.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Passwords and financial data.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

McAfee identifies and blocks these sites to.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Keep you safer online so you can book your trip without worry.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Learn [e-mail] online protection.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Kraft Mac and Cheese is the best thing ever. It's even better than pop music. You look just as natural enjoying us at age 13 as you do 55. Kraft Mac and Cheese. Best thing ever.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

All right, we are here now with Katie Del Rosario. She's the associate director of audiobooks at Spotify, here to talk to us about this year's Spotify Wrapped, which is the first one to include your audiobook listening data. I am personally still recovering from Spotify, thinking that I am several years older than than I am in my rapt based on my musical listening habits, but I'm willing to forgive it. Katie, thank you so much for being here with us today.

[Katie Del Rosario]

Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

You told me that you came in with a ton of data, and we love that here at the Book Riot podcast. So where would you like to start?

[Katie Del Rosario]

Sure. I mean, let's. I can talk a little bit about Wrapped as a whole this year and what makes it a little bit different, and then I'll talk about audiobook book specifically. I think, you know what's really exciting about Wrapped is it's a lot more layered this year. I think it really reveals a lot more this year, and it's really all about connection. If you haven't played around a lot with it yet. We're really connecting fans this year through shared interactive features and stories like wrapped party clubs, Listening Age, of course, which Rebecca alluded to. And it really kind of turns your year of listening into really fun moments that you can share and experience with friends and family and. And it's so Exciting to bring audiobooks into it for the first time. We know that among book lovers, audiobooks are just as exciting as your top artist or your most streamed song. And of course, that's why we're introducing Audiobooks Wrapped for consumers. For the first time ever, we've brought a ton of unparalleled access to authors. We've created beautifully curated hubs, fan experiences that bring the worlds of your favorite stories to life. And we really want to drive home that, that being a fan of books on Spotify really means more than ever. On the data side, we're featuring a lot of stories. So when you open up your audiobooks experience, you're going to see the number of audiobooks that you've listened to, the COVID image of your top audiobook, your top audiobooks genre, and if you're eligible, clips from your top authors, which is super exciting.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

That's fun.

[Katie Del Rosario]

And then, you know, outside of that, it's really all about the big trends, the big books, the big authors. So where would you like to start? I'm happy to dig into anything.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, let's go Overall questions first before we get into specific data in terms of putting it together. So my daughter ran downstairs this morning with her phone and her Spotify wrapped because she was very excited to see. So also her listening age. She is my daughter because her listening age is 64 and she's 12.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Well, that makes me feel better. Mine only thought I was like four years older than I am.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Oh, yeah. Heavens to Betsy. And you know, to see. It's so cool to see the year in review and like, you know, there's some really cool animations. How much of what has worked and what's changed over time. Like the Spotify Wrapped is one of the great, you know, I don't know if it's a marketing PR genius, lightning in a bottle ideas that someone had. It's really caught on. When you were thinking about and your team was thinking about Spotify was thinking about something to do with their audiobooks. Like, at what point the process were you like, we should really do this for audiobooks. What were the challenges and thinking about how it would appear like, like, how did you go into talking about what the experience for audiobook listeners would be like both similarly and differently from music?

[Katie Del Rosario]

That's a great question. You know, I think the really the hope is to get as much of the audiobooks experience as possible in front of as many people as possible. Right. So there's kind of two sides to the rapt equation, at least for audiobooks One is the more data eligibility, which, which we were chatting about. Right. To get that audiobooks wrapped consumer experience on the platform, users will have needed to listen to at least one book to at least 70% completion. That book also needs to have an associated primary genre. So that will be to get that card, as I mentioned earlier, where you know your top genre is X. For me, it was nonfiction this year.

Or users will have needed to listen to at least least 60 minutes of audiobooks total to get that audiobook story as part of their wrapped experience.

Outside of that, we launched wrapped very lightly for audiobooks last year. We were only live in English language markets only at the time. So this is our first year bringing editorial experience across multiple markets in multiple languages, which was super exciting. And for us, you know, it's always this is our moment to talk about best books of the year, which we know, you know, many, many of our competitors, many of our retailers do.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

It's that season.

[Katie Del Rosario]

It's that season. And of course we're so excited about that. I mean work that reading that listening, that's happening all year. So it's really the culmination of everything that my team has done all year. This year we put together five major lists. One is data driven. That's that top audiobooks of the year, that's based on listening consumption data. But the rest is really all editorial. It's best audiobooks, editors picks, best debuts, indie audiobooks, and 2025 and audiobooks where we get a chance to talk about the major trends and moments of the year. We also put together 13 playlists. I won't name them all out, but they're all of the top genres. Fiction, romance, self care, mysteries, et cetera. All of those are editorially driven. And it was a chance for all of our genre editors to really chat through their favorite books of the year and surface the content that they can't forget. But I think the other thing that was really exciting this year is that other content types and music and pods have started to dabble in video. And this is really the first time that our audiobooks editorial team has been able to bring that video experience not only to rapt, but to do anything on the platform in general. So we put together two video watch feeds this year. Those are totally editorially driven. One illustrates our 2025 trends, and then the other is our top 10 editors pictures picks of the year. So just a really exciting moment for us and it's a really rich experience. We hope that there's something that everybody can find to Listen to.

[Jeff O'Neill]

All right, enough preamble. I derailed you. You're getting ready to give us the hot ju juicy data and I interrupted you. So let's do it. Give us data. Where do you want what's most interesting to you? What do you think is the most illuminative anywhere you want to go? Rebecca and I are ready.

[Katie Del Rosario]

I mean, let's talk trends. I think, I think, you know, that's of course what, what you know, our team, we like to think that we listen and read really, really widely, but it's really fun to see what our users are listening to. So I mean, I think what should be of no surprise, I think we chatted about this last time we talked too. It was romance, spicy romance and romantasy continue to be huge. That should be of no surprise to anyone. And if you look at our top audiobooks list of the year, the huge bulk of those titles are in those categories. You're looking at Fourth Wing, Rebecca Yarros, Lights Out, Nabetha Allen, Iron Flame Again by Rebecca Yarros. I think there are three Sarah J. Maas titles.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Totally believe that.

[Katie Del Rosario]

In the top 10, right, quicksilver by Kelly Hart, Emily Henry. So huge year for romance and romantasy. We've also had really great success with music memoirs. So titles like Bono Surrender, the Autobiography of Gucci mane, Mark Hoppus Fahrenheit 182 et cetera. The other thing that's really exciting I think is just book to screen adaptations, yes, do so well for us. More than 60% of Spotify's top 100 audiobooks in the US this year were either green lit or already adapted for the TV or movie screen. And once kind of the buzz starts to generate for these, we're just able to drive a huge increase in consumption. So for example, we saw more than a 600% increase in listening for the Hunting Wives by May COBB and a 330% uptick. And Ruth Ware's the Woman in Cabin 10 in the two weeks weeks pros premiere. So just hugely, hugely so two weeks.

[Jeff O'Neill]

After the show was available. So people are like oh there's a book or you were surfacing.

[Katie Del Rosario]

Yeah.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Hey, did you know that's so interesting. That's something that I've always wondered about because like the die hard book nerds like to say you have to read the book before you see the movie. But Jeff and I have been on a campaign for at least a decade to put bookstores in movie theaters because so often like you don't see until the title Card at the end of the movie, like, based on the novel, whatever. And you. I always hear people in the theater, like, like, oh, there's a book. And so it sounds like you're. You're seeing evidence of that second pattern in the data from Spotify users that they are getting exposed to the piece of media, or at least the idea that the adaptation is out there. And then they go to the book.

[Katie Del Rosario]

Exactly. Maybe their friends are talking about or their family's seen it. So, yeah, I think. And that. And a lot of that. You know, we see continued resonance, at least through our editorial. What we look at editorially, those titles continue to resonate throughout the year. I mean, we are still seeing traction, of course, on, like, the Summer I Turn Pretty. The Institute and the Long Walk, obviously was a huge year for Stephen King as far as adaptations. Thursday, Murder Club, et cetera. So we continue to see that. That performance long after the film or the TV show releases.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Do you know if you'll anticipate a similar uptick like, around Oscar season when we're, like, talking about movies again, I'm curious.

[Katie Del Rosario]

You know, it. In my experience, it's totally dependent upon what the properties are that end up being surfaced through the Oscars. Right. And. And just how much they resonate. So much of what we see, it's more on the television show side often. Right. So, yeah, I think it'll be really interesting to watch, for sure.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

So romanticies, adaptations, what else is on that trend list?

[Katie Del Rosario]

I mean, I think the other one that I think is probably also not hugely surprising, we've seen a really big uptick in what our team dubs dystopian anxiety this year. Right. That is classic dystopian fiction like Baron Hood Type 451 or I, who have never known Men, as well as fiction and nonfiction focused a lot around AI and other emerging technologies. So books like the Optimist Empire of AI Culpability by Bruce Holfinger and Moderation by Elaine Castillo, people are anxious and they're looking for ways to kind of figure out meaning with what's going on around us. So that's been really interesting to see. And my gut is we'll see more of that going into next year as well, unfortunately.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Think you're right about that.

[Katie Del Rosario]

Yeah.

[Jeff O'Neill]

It doesn't seem like that's going anywhere.

[Katie Del Rosario]

Yeah.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Anytime soon. I was going to ask about. I have never seen men, because, you know, that's one that came from the algorithm.

[Katie Del Rosario]

Right.

[Jeff O'Neill]

From social feeds, from Book Talk, especially, you know, Romantasy, clearly Romance is clearly driving that. Do you see that appear in other ways? Like can you tell when something is getting picked up online? Like, I don't know where you are. I don't even know if there's an audiobook on the calculation of volume. But we were talking about in the pod the other day and we got a bunch of emails from people saying, I love the calculation botmos. I was totally surprised. So in terms of where things are popping and when you see them popping, like how quickly do you see like, oh, something's moving here or do you see it in arrears or at the end of the year or you know, how finely tuned are your antenna for stuff like that?

[Katie Del Rosario]

Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, I would say as a team, we tend to move very quickly. If we see something moving that maybe wasn't on our radar, we are able to jump on. I mean, I would say we can see that uptick on our side within 24 hours and react accordingly. But. But the other thing I would say is our team is really diverse and they're paying attention to a lot of, a lot of different things. And our goal on our editorial team is really to be on the trendsetter sides. We really try to anticipate those trends and get ahead of them so that we're making sure that we're surfacing the content in a way that feels organic and reactive to what's going on in the market.

[Jeff O'Neill]

So when someone's read come look for it, you've got it there for them ready to go.

[Katie Del Rosario]

Exactly, exactly. We don't want to make it hard for them to find.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, you and I are both nonfiction first audio listeners it sounds like. And I know Rebecca does a lot of nonfiction too. Can you talk to us about the nonfiction picks? We have some of our favorites and what I don't want to be wrong, so I don't want to guess, but you talk about some of the non fiction stuff that popped this year.

[Katie Del Rosario]

All right, so I can talk about our the top titles in terms of data and then I might speak a little bit to you know, where and when our editorial list differed slightly from the deck. So I think the really interesting thing is that Careless People by Sarah Wynne Williams is at the absolutely at the top of our nonfiction list this year. Obviously saw huge interest in that title. It was my number one pick of the year in my Spotify wrap. It's a totally engrossing book. I totally get it. Undeniable by Cameron Haynes, what I Ate in One Year, Stanley Tucci the Optimist, which I chatted about earlier. Part of that, you know, AI Trends before and Laughter by Jenny Carr, the Wild Silence, Rainer Wynn, Brooke Shields memoir. So, I mean, I think what's really lovely, it's a, it's a very diverse list. Right. Like, you know, I think it's not all celebrity memoirs. It's a really kind of nice mix of your more classic nonfiction. And the celebrity side we've got, you know, from under the Truck by Josh Brolin, et cetera.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I always underrate those, even like the bro. I just wouldn't. Those are not on my radar at all. Like, I like Josh Brolin as an actor. Fine. It would never occur to me to listen to the memoir. So I know there's a reason they publish them.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

So don't bet against Josh Brolin.

[Jeff O'Neill]

No, I mean, just, I know that's power. It can be quite powerful. And that's fine. It's just not on my radar.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I know we both really loved Zarna Garg's this American Woman this year. And the Mary Roach Replaceable, you like that sort of nonfiction is also always really fun on audio. Do you have personal picks you can share with us your personal fave after?

[Katie Del Rosario]

Yeah, I'm happy to. Mary Roach was, was in our best nonfiction of the year. The other one I'll call out was Murderland by Caroline Fraser. I thought it was just a really excellent true crime book this year. Forest Euphoria, which I know has been getting a ton of buzz, but it's really looking at queerness in the natural world. And it is just, it's absolutely beautiful. I really also enjoyed this Is for Everyone by Tim Berners Lee, narrated by Stephen Fry. I just, I hope.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Oh, I don't think I knew that that's on my list to get to, but that really is going to bump. I mean, that's the kind of thing that matters because I was like, am I getting. We did an episode about are we going to get to this at the end of the year? And the Tim Berners Lee is on there. I think that really matters. Honestly. That's. It's a Stephen Fry narration.

[Katie Del Rosario]

It's really, really excellent. Yeah. And then a book that came out of Canada, it's called Jesus Land by Joel Kidd. I really, really love. And looking at evangelical youth culture in the 90s, and that's the first one that when I was Rebecca.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Rebecca, you got to be careful.

[Katie Del Rosario]

Jars of Clay, I was like, oh, I've thought about in like 30 years.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Oh, my gosh. One of my Friends. Also in his 40s, is learning to play a Jars of Clay song on the guitar right now in, like, a fit of nostalgia. And I have been down that rapid rabbit hole. Like, it showed up on my raft. And I was like, oh, God, Spotify knows.

[Katie Del Rosario]

I mean, well, listen to Jesus Land.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I'm gonna. I am gonna listen.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I think we both grew up in Jesus Land actually, in the 90s, we did.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

We grew up, like, 40 miles apart from each other in Kansas.

All right, well, that's very exciting.

[Katie Del Rosario]

Yeah. I mean, and I would say. I mean, it's. It's funny to me that my. That nonfiction, I will say, was my top genre of the year. I actually listen to way more fiction than I do nonfiction. I think that that's probably a product of often. Our team is reading and listening months ahead. Right. Like, right now, we're listening to and reading manuscripts for January and February. So so much of my listening is happening off platform, which, of course, then isn't, you know, calculated in the end of year results. But I'm curious. Can I ask the two of you what your favorite books of the year?

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, I mean, maybe we can keep it to audio. We haven't done our full. I really liked. I was just talking to someone about this yesterday. The Carpool Detectives by Chuck Hogan, which is a true story of four women who, during COVID became amateur detectives and took up a cold case and made some progress on it. I actually had said. I had someone text me the story, say, why isn't this a book? And I was like, oh, wait, here you go right there. I really like that we both loved Marriage at Sea. I did on audio. I thought that was beautiful. Those two. For me again, I've been recommending this American one by Zarnagog all year, and everyone I've recommended to is like, oh, my God, that might be the best memoir or slash audiobook I've ever listened to.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

She's just really fun.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Amazing of a performance there. So those are sort of my three. Rebecca, what do you want to shout out?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I was a lot. I just listened to a lot fewer audiobooks this year because I'm reading so much in print for zero to well read.

I loved Mary Roach Replaceable you. I mean, Mary Roach is fun all the time, but getting to, like, hear the giggle in her voice when she's telling the poop jokes is really, like, an unparalleled experience. I wish that I had listened to A Marriage at Sea. I just, like, took that down in one gulp in print. But Jeff Raved about it. And I listened to part of Mother Mary Comes to Me by Arundhati Roy. I was like bouncing back and forth. But my best audiobook experience of the year was a really, really old one. I listened to a full cast production of Hamlet from the Folger Library. Like this is my favorite hack for really getting your head around Shakespeare is if you can't go see it performed, listen to it performed and like the full cast. Folger Library edition was included in Spotify Premium, which was a delight to me this year. And I expect to be doing that with Much Ado About Nothing in the coming months.

[Katie Del Rosario]

I love that. I love that.

Can I share mine? My Absolutely.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Go for it. We're just sitting here waiting. Katie, we're not doing anything else. We're not letting you go without it.

[Katie Del Rosario]

So difficult to narrow it down. I mean in reality I could probably talk about 20, but I'll talk about three. I think my number one favorite of the year was Wild Dark shore by Charlotte McConaughey. That book is the one that has stuck with me all year. It's raw and moody and it made me want to upend my entire life and move to the middle of the wilderness with my family and just like live off grid.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Come sit by me.

[Katie Del Rosario]

Moderation by Elaine Castillo. I also really loved and it's stellar and audio. It's a very sharp and funny satire of the tech industry and also a surprisingly charming love story.

And then I also really loved Vera or Faith by Gary Steingart. It's just it's tender and it's sad and funny and Vera has stayed in my head for months after reading that.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I did that in print. Did Gary narrate that? Katie, do you do remember off the.

[Katie Del Rosario]

Top of your head? I don't remember off the top of my head. I can certainly look it up.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah.

[Katie Del Rosario]

And then I also you know I think I also want to shout out Everything is Tuberculosis by John.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Everybody's loving that one on audio this year. I'm seeing it everywhere.

[Katie Del Rosario]

So good Vera. He co narrates it with Shannon Tayo.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Oh sweet. Okay I read it like I said I read it in print. That's super smart. So the fascinating that that one someone could take down in an afternoon it's not very long if if people are looking for the 10 before the end is that the hashtag Rebecca that that is a trend 10 you could knock out in a in a long afternoon of wrapping presents or something.

Terrific Kitty on on the data side random things that surprised you when you were Looking at your dashboards and numbers and blips and things that were coming across. Did you have something that really stood out to you that you'll remember from this year as being a surprising or I know we talked about the romance romantasy trends, but you know, what are the other little things that you saw that you're like, huh? Even if you don't know what to say or why they have happened?

[Katie Del Rosario]

That is. That's a great question. I mean, I think all of my surprises were totally pleasant. Surprises of delight.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Sure.

[Katie Del Rosario]

Our top mysteries and thrillers. Freda McFadden just dominated that list this year. I mean, I think, you know, top 10 mysteries and thrillers, she had five.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Of them and a big adaptation coming out.

[Katie Del Rosario]

Big adaptations. That was really fun to see.

I mean, like I said, I always am not terribly surprised, but it's delightful to just to see how much Romantasy is resonating. I mean, I love sci fi, fantasy and you know, even though I'm not a classic kind of romantasy girly, so to speak. I love that it's having a moment and that people are finding great books to listen to.

The other things I will say a really fun to see just how many authors are peaking in that global top authors list with only backlist? Right. I mean Tolkien sits at number four. Right. And Brandon Sanderson is at number nine. And most of those books are backlist. Here's Brown. And again, most of that is driven by Backlist. So I just think really, I think it's really great story that Spotify. You know, obviously we're finding success in those big trending titles and new releases, but we're continuing to drive a lot in terms of Backlist as well. I think that that and that speaks to what you were saying, Rebecca too, about the play that you listen to. I think it's just really nice that people can kind of dig into that catalog and just find something great to listen to across the years and not just 20, 25 book.

[Jeff O'Neill]

We'll put a link in the show notes to where you can find all the editorial lists. You said there are 13. I was doing math in my head about the genres. I didn't get to 13. So do you want to show what are some of the, what are some of the editorial lists that you put together that may not be sort of classic genres or like straight down the middle?

[Katie Del Rosario]

Yeah. So we've got best fiction, best self care, Romantasy, celebrity audiobooks, mysteries, history, romance, nonfiction, sci fi and fantasy, family audiobooks, horror, memoirs and Young adult.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

We get asked to be hitting that.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Family audiobook list with a quick. It's gonna be like, you know that thing at the, the carnival where you have to hit that giant hammer. I'm going to be hitting that so hard trying to ring that bell.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Every year, every year we do recommendation requests for the holidays with our listeners. And every year someone asks for good audiobooks to listen to with the kids in the car on the holiday road trip. And so like having a designated category for family audiobooks is Chef's Kiss.

[Katie Del Rosario]

Awesome. Awesome. Our kids editor, she loves the genre so much. She comes from a deep background in kids publishing. So I. So she's got tons of fantastic recommendations for people.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I would imagine even getting that 13. I mean you probably had 19 different lists. You could probably do. It's hard enough to get the books on the list. But even what kind of list to do with.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

We know how hard it is to make a list.

[Jeff O'Neill]

It's very difficult. A list of your list is even meta difficult.

[Katie Del Rosario]

Well, it's true. And these are just the editorial lists, right? I mean this. We also put together a ton of data driven lists and for that we've got our global top audiobooks. Global top authors. There's top audiobooks that were released in 2025. So just looking at new releases, Pop romance, bio memoir, mystery, thriller, sports audiobooks, sci fi fantasy, best debuts again, the best career and business audiobooks, travel, science and nature. And then the other thing that's really interesting, we also put together a list of the most repeated audiobooks of 2025. So those books that people came back to, what is on?

[Jeff O'Neill]

Is it the nightstage that my partner listened to 9 million times this year.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Single handedly holding that one up?

[Katie Del Rosario]

It's pretty interesting. The number one is 12 laws of the Universe which is very interesting. Followed by 12 laws of life and of course there's some kids and family content. Frog and Toad audio collection, a version of the Three Little Pigs and Peter and the Wolf. The other thing I thought was interesting is coming in at number 10 was the house of My Mother by Sherry Frank, which Frankie, which, which like. I mean I, I listen to. It's a fantastic book. I think it'll be a hard one to, to repeat. Listen, it was just. It's such a heart heavy hitting.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

So interesting.

[Katie Del Rosario]

So so interesting.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I wouldn't have guessed that in a million. I mean we talked about that earlier in the year where we saw it was showing up on Goodreads lists of most popular and getting some secondary signal. But you could have given me 100 guesses of books that came out this year that have been the most re listened to and that wouldn't have been for the reasons you say. Like it's pretty heady stuff.

[Katie Del Rosario]

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And then I guess that we put together, of course, nonfiction, music, memoirs, and then we have our short list of top global genres as well. And that is, you know, fiction and literature at the top. Then mystery and thriller, sci fi, fantasy, romance, and then bio, memoir.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Cool. Anything else, Rebecca that we wanted to pick her spreadsheets about?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I mean I could do this all afternoon.

But I think we got the great top level data. And it's always fun that there are some surprises among the picks. Also, always fun to hear your personal favorites because we're still jealous from our last conversation where you let it slip that you have designated listening time at work, which just is the dream. So thank you for sharing that with us, Katie and I'm sure we'll have you back in the springtime for something fun.

[Katie Del Rosario]

Sounds great. Thank you so much. It was so much fun to chat about wrapped and all things books.

[Jeff O'Neill]

As always, thanks so much Katie.

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[Rebecca Schinsky]

Fascinating.

[Jeff O'Neill]

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[Rebecca Schinsky]

Limu is that guy with the binoculars watching us.

[Jeff O'Neill]

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