How Are We Feeling About Book Sales Right Now?

Summary

Book Riot – The Podcast

Episode: How Are We Feeling About Book Sales Right Now?
Hosts: Jeff O’Neal & Rebecca Schinsky
Date: January 19, 2026

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Episode Overview

Jeff and Rebecca kick off their first in-depth episode of the year by analyzing the latest book sales data, discussing trends and diversity in the publishing industry, and diving into current releases, adaptations, and notable picks for “best fantasy of the century so far.” The conversation is a candid, insightful look into how the world of books is shifting post-pandemic, with thoughtful points on algorithmic influence, genre trends, author-led initiatives, and cultural moments in adaptations.

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Main Topics & Key Insights

1. Book Sales: The “New Normal”

Segment Start: 13:08

• Print book sales slightly rose by 0.3% in 2025—a modest increase after a pandemic-era boom and subsequent plateau.

  • Rebecca: "We're settling at a new normal for publishing… it’s retracted, but there is still a little bit of growth."

• There's a feeling of leveling off rather than decline or rapid growth.

• Both hosts agree the industry should be satisfied, given inflation and cultural distractions.

  “We just didn’t know where we would settle…and there is still a little bit of growth… I think I would take this, especially as you said, in a year where affordability has been generally very high.” – Rebecca [15:18]

2. The Top 20 Bestsellers: Troubling Lack of Diversity

Segment Start: 16:15

• For the third year in a row, all 20 best-selling authors are white. Michelle Obama was the last author of color in the top 20 (2022).
• Algorithmic dominance is cited as a primary driver of this:

  "The predominance of the algorithm has been an enemy to inclusivity and diversity… It’s just true. I don’t think there’s any counter-argument to that." – Jeff [16:47]

• Romantasy dominates the list, with a quarter of titles from this genre (Fourth Wing series, Sarah J. Maas, etc.).
• Other huge sellers: Mel Robbins’s "Let Them Theory" (2.8M copies); “Sunrise at the Reaping”; recurring household names in self-help (James Clear, “Atomic Habits”) and illustrated kids’ books (“Oh, The Places You’ll Go”, “The Very Hungry Caterpillar”).
  • “Three illustrated kids books… there should be kids books on here.” – Jeff [18:58]

3. Genre & Trend Spotlights

Segment Start: 13:08 & 31:54

• Romantasy is established as the “apex predator” of genres, but few breakouts outside the biggest names.
• Subscription book boxes: Author Julia Quinn is launching JQ Editions—a curated, special-edition historical romance box, capitalizing on the "Bridgerton" brand and fan interest in exclusive merchandise. This points to the power of author-brand curation and direct-to-reader models.
  • Rebecca: “If anybody is positioned to do this right now, it’s Julia Quinn… But there are many other romance authors who could do this.” [33:35]

4. Adaptations: The Era of Romantasy & Queer Books on Screen

Segment Start: 21:16 & 23:48

• Movie/TV ties are having outsized influence:
  • “The Housemaid” adaptation is a box-office hit ($150M on a $35M budget).
  • "Heated Rivalry" (hockey romance adaptation) exploded in cultural reach upon HBO streaming, with rapid fandom growth.
• Heated Rivalry triggers a discussion of sports romance, especially the “stickiness” of hockey romance for readers/viewers.
  • Memorable Moment: “Oh my God, the butts.” – Rebecca [25:17]
  • Rebecca notes its viral momentum is even quicker than "The Bear,” with sports romance poised for expansion into new genres.

5. Diversity, Algorithms, and Industry Concerns

Segment Start: 16:33 & 31:54

• Despite some sales success stories “down the list,” the hosts highlight deep concerns about ongoing exclusivity at the very top.
• Industry attention remains focused on large, algorithm-driven sales—possibly limiting pathways for marginalized voices.
• Book boxes and direct-to-consumer models could become new avenues for boosting underrepresented authors, if picked up by big names.

6. Best Fantasy of the Century (So Far)

Segment Start: 33:35

• Book Riot’s selections for best fantasy novels of the last 25 years are out, with picks like "A Game of Thrones," "A Darker Shade of Magic," "Black Leopard, Red Wolf," "Children of Blood and Bone," "Babel," and "Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell."
  • Jeff: "What I realize in looking at any of these lists is how long 25 years is because some of these books...feel like they've been out for a million years." [34:50]

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On the lack of diversity in bestsellers:

  “If we wanted to do the old, well we’ll know it when we see it for how things are going, you kind of would like the any group of high performing people to kind of roughly mirror the country. And the country is sort of 40ish percent not white. So we would need eight here and we have zero. So we’re a long way to go.” – Jeff [16:47]

• On the algorithm's impact:

  “The predominance of the algorithm has been an enemy to inclusivity and diversity and expanding the kinds of voices that sell a bunch of books. It’s just true.” – Jeff [16:47]

• On Romantasy book box economics:

  “I would love to see somebody like Jasmine Guillory curate contemporary romances by authors of color. If this does well, I hope it opens the door and becomes another way that folks…can do that.” – Rebecca [33:35]

• On the “Heated Rivalry” adaptation craze:

  “I don’t do the fandom thing, but it’s well made. It was really fun to watch, and it’s just an affirming, exciting story… Also, they’re just hot. Like, one of the texts that I sent somebody was just, oh, my God, the butts.” – Rebecca [25:17]

• On sports romance “hockey” stickiness:

  “There is something really sticky about the hockey romance… I don’t know what it is about the hockey, but it really seems to work for people.” – Rebecca [27:00]

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Segment Timestamps

• Housekeeping, Adaptations, Patreon: 00:49–03:49
• Fun tangent on podcast merch & snacks: 04:24–09:47
• Book sales & bestseller analysis: 13:08–23:48
• Heated Rivalry adaptation & sports romance: 23:48–29:56
• Author-branded book boxes (Julia Quinn): 31:54–33:35
• Best Fantasy of the Century picks: 33:35–37:44
• Hamnet stage adaptation news: 38:45–40:15
• Upcoming Wuthering Heights adaptation & merch: 40:15–41:08
• George Saunders interview: 41:08–42:33
• Recent Reads (Frontlist/Backlist recs): 43:10–53:16

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Recent Reads Segment Highlights

• Rebecca:

  • How to Cook a Coyote (Betty Fussell): Memoir about late life, humor, and mortality.
  • Crux (Gabriel Tallant): Friendship novel set in New Mexico, high schoolers, rock climbing, potential book club pick.
  • Two Women Living Together (Kim Hana & Wang Sun Woo): Two single Korean women share a home in their 40s; focus is more practical than philosophical.

• Jeff:

  • Expensive Basketball (Shea Serrano): Essays celebrating NBA & WNBA players; great as a gift.
  • Football (Chuck Klosterman): Deep, big-picture essay collection on football as American culture, its TV-friendly structure, future decline, and identity politics.

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Resources & Recommendations

• Zero to Well Read Podcast: Deep dives and literary analysis
• Book Riot Patreon: New release drafts, hot list check-ins, community picks
• Book Riot’s Best Fantasy Books of the Century List: [Link in show notes]

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Tone & Style

Cheerful, wry, and deeply knowledgeable, Jeff and Rebecca keep the tone witty and inquisitive. The episode blends big-picture industry observations with personal anecdotes and pop culture savvy, welcoming readers and publishing-watchers alike to step into the “bookiverse” and make sense of its latest swings.

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For Further Listening/Action

• Read Book Riot’s best fantasy picks and join the Patreon hot list.
• Check tour dates for the "Hamnet" stage adaptation.
• Listen to the NYT George Saunders interview for literary inspiration.
• Watch/read “Heated Rivalry” for a taste of the latest romance craze.

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Questions or thoughts? Email [e-mail]

Transcript

[A]

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[A]

New year, same extra value meals at McDonald's. So now get two snack wraps plus fries and a medium soft drink for just $8 for a limited time only. Prices and participation may vary. Prices may be higher in Hawaii, Alaska and California. And for delivery. This is the Book Riot Podcast. I'm Jeff o'. Neill.

[B]

And I'm Rebecca Schinsky.

[A]

Today on the show, we're kind of we're two weeks into 2026, Rebecca, but this is sort of our first real BR pod show of the year. We did some adaptations. Sharifa and Vanessa sat in for us last week.

[B]

Wonderful job there.

[A]

You really get to dive in. And the publishing wheels are spinning a little bit. We're getting some book sales data from 2025. I mean the book of the year is already established in the form of heated rivalry which we might talk about. Even though it's yes. Know, I don't know how long that flame, the scorching inferno of the popular rival.

[B]

I think it's going to burn for a while.

[A]

Well, I think it will too. But like I was looking at. Well, we'll get into a minute, we'll talk about that. We're talking about some other stuff here. We'll talk about book riots, best fantasy books of the year so far. Part of our year long genre based.

[B]

Of the century so far.

[A]

What did I say? Year Jesus centuries so far. And some other stuff here too. Before we get into all of that, some housekeeping. If you peek over to zero to well read feed. The Tuesday episode that's in your feed right now for everybody is our deep dive into 100 Years of Solitude by Gabriel Garcia Marquez. A book which clearly every person who has bought it all 50 million people have read and understand completely. Rebecca.

[B]

The great unanswerable question of publishing is what percentage of books that get bought actually get read. And it is perhaps the greatest on a book like 100 Years of Solitude.

[A]

Yeah. Extremely popular book, extremely well known author of a wonderful text. And we really had a good time jumping in over on the Patreon for this show right now. You can go find the winter new release draft, one of Our favorite times of year to do the new release draft for Patreon subscribers. Over there you can vote on which of our baskets teams assembled literary picks you find the most appealing. And then one of us gets to win. And I don't know who's won the most. You know, this is the kind of thing you do this long enough you.

[B]

Forget we lost track. Yeah, I think it's about. It's a roughly even the votes on those tend to sort of alternate and I think a lot of it has to do with whoever loses one draft gets first pick in the next draft. And often that first title sets a person up for a good win.

[A]

Like the NBA. I mean like, like professional sports team. That's what's supposed to happen, right? You came in last year supposed to get the number one pick and kind of keeps it maintain equilibrium over time. Next week in the Patreon feed will be time for a hot list check in which will be very interesting. This is the first hot list check in of the year is always unusual because you're straddling a couple of years. The publishing years of 2026 haven't got, you know, really fired up one. One book I can assure you will be a full year on the hot list. Chicken is the Let Them Theory by Mel Robbins, which was clearly the book of 2025, even though it was published annoyingly on December 30th or 24th.

[B]

I went back and looked. It was Christmas Eve, December to Christmas Eve.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, I remember I was in LA and someone, I think I told the story on the podcast before someone had asked for. I heard them say no, we don't have that book. We can't keep it in stock. And I did the extraordinarily unusual thing for me which to talk to someone I know proactively and that was say so can I just ask what book that is? It was a let them theory and that, you know, continues to be a hot seller. Mel Robbins podcast continues to be towards the top of the all podcasts, which is fascinating to me. So there's a lot of continuing interest in that book.

[B]

Boy, is she capitalizing on it. I don't know if the Mel Robbins protein drink has reached your Internet or if that's just a special feature of the middle aged lady Internet.

[A]

So the dads, we set up a perimeter and podcast adjacent items. They fall into the moat. They don't get through.

[B]

I see.

[A]

Generally speaking. So I don't. If you, if you have merch on your pod, I don't know about it.

[B]

The podcast inspired supplements are not exclusive to the bros now because Mel Robbins is hawking, like, third grade protein drinks.

[A]

Yeah, you know what?

[B]

Their kids.

[A]

Let them all, you know, let them sell theory. The let them sell theory by Mel Robbins. If we were to launch some sort of ingestible Rebecca to sell, what do you think would be the least objectionable? What about like a coffee subscription service of some kind? What do you think about that?

[B]

I like a coffee subscription. I was having ideas until you said least objectionable. Like, here's your pot gummy for watching white Noise.

[A]

You know, I think we need to be careful about sort of gray market. I'm not sure where we are in all jurisdictions with that kind of thing. And state lines and through the mail.

[B]

Yes, but there's a coffee subscription is probably safe. Maybe like a. We could have an AM And PM option. So we could have like a. A tiki cocktail. Now you're thinking inspired by oneills concoctions.

[A]

Critical pinking for the cocktails over there.

[B]

Famously, the o' Neill cocktail motto is if it pinks, I Dr.

[A]

If it pinks, I drinks. Which is, you know, you could do worse. I had a wonderful mocktail the other day. Are you into mocktails at all? What about Bob? Bob shares with me. If it pinks, it drinks. Does he do a mocktail?

[B]

We will do a mocktail, but we're both like cocktail fans and we both are like, prefer the brown liquors. So there's not a lot of. Not a lot of tiki really happening here. In general, I'm. Oh. I'm increasingly open to a mocktail as I've definitely crossed the threshold where more than one cocktail equals punishment for like.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

I've just lost a whole night of sleep and it's not worth it.

[A]

I'm to the point now. I don't even get drunk anymore. I can't even get tipsy. I just go right to hangover. I don't know when that happened.

[B]

Yeah, that's a gift of the mid-40s.

[A]

Yeah, it's really great.

[B]

The metabolism of a. Yeah, I think a coffee subscription.

[A]

Like, you are snack connoisseur and I like to snack in the afternoon. What about some sort of snack? Goldfish.

[B]

I know you have goldfish or goldfish. Either one.

[A]

What do you think of the proliferation of alternate goldfish flavors and combinations now? Are you ever tempted by like a cookies and cream goldfish?

[B]

No, no, no. And like, the people at Oreo have really gone bananas with this. You can have Oreos of all kinds of flavors. And like, if you're into that, I'm happy for you. I just morally object to it. But I do object to goldfish. When we were in Switzerland, we had the original goldfish crackers, which are pretzel. And I just also need to pretend that those don't exist.

[A]

Like it's cheddar because they're too wonderful. That's why you have to pretend goldfish pretzel crackers are wonderful. Rebecca, I don't know what you're talking about.

[B]

Original cheddar. We don't need this flavor blasted business. We don't need pizza. Give me the real thing.

[A]

One last tangent for you. I saw an abomination in my freezer aisle the other day that I immediately took a picture of and sent to Michelle, which was a frozen pizza by Cheez it that has a Cheez it crust.

[B]

Oh, boy.

[A]

And you know what? I thought the only people pissed off about that more than me were the Oreo people. Because, like, we can't make a pizza out of Oreo.

[B]

There just needs to be a section of the frozen, like a whole subsection of the frozen aisle that's like, so you've got the munchies.

[A]

Yeah, Right.

[B]

Drugs have to be involved for you to think that Cheez it crust on a pizza is a good idea.

[A]

There's a lot of things going on in the country right now that I think we could use an adult in the room, you know, just to say, you know, let's not do this.

[B]

And I'm not in the top 10.

[A]

And that's not in the top 10. But I'm not in the top 10 for taking that position. Even though I position myself as the world's most reasonable man, I think I could handle a. Should we really do this for the snacking industry? Like, should we really do this? Because I've got to tell you, the arms race between Reese's and Oreos to be the most unhinged snack brand is. Is really something to watch.

[B]

Now there's Oreos in Reese's.

[A]

I. You can't do that. You're going to create a rip in the spacetime continuum.

[B]

You can't do it. It's. It's hot and spicy. Everything that I object to. Like, some hot and spicy. Yes. But we don't need to make everything hot and spicy.

[A]

This is a real problem for my fruity cocktail consumption because they decide on all the fancy Portland restaurants, they're going to take the one tropical drink and they're going to drop, like, habanero infused raisin syrup or something in there. And I've got to tell you, with a man of my constitution, that is not something that we can, we can abide, we cannot, we cannot harbor, we cannot consume because the secondary effects will be manifold and severe. So anyway, yeah, as you can tell, we're getting to the year. Let's do a sponsor break and actually talk about book news.

[B]

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[A]

News that print book sales rose slightly last year. We have talked at some length about how there wasn't a book of the year necessarily of last year. Except for the Let them theory though we had some contenders and maybe Sunrise at the Reaping if it really broke more into the adult market. Honestly, I think it would. It certainly sold enough copies and Onyx Storm is still selling and still continues to be a thing, but it feels like the fever for that has crested outside of that. Like I guess kind of do you sign for this if you're the publishing industry in 2025, you said the end of 2024 will take a modest increase in a year where, I don't know, inflation is what it is. Economics are strange. I don't know. Rebecca, what do you think publishing is feeling right now about this result?

[B]

I mean, I don't know what publishing is feeling. I would sign for this result like it's a 0.3% increase over 2024. 2024 was a 0.5% increase over 2023, but a real leveling off. Like I wrote about this in our flagship newsletter and the thing I said about it is it looks to me like we're settling at a new normal for publishing pandemic that like the increase the year over year increases between like 2019 and 2020 and then 2020 and 2021 were huge. And that was because everybody was stuck at home and they were reading books and book talk was going wild and like that was unsustainable. Like we knew that we wouldn't stay at those highs forever. We just didn't know what we. As we retracted a little bit where we would settle and that it's retracted. But there is still a little bit of growth, especially in a year where there was a James in a year where there was a lot of new Romantasy coming out. But aside from Onyx Storm, the attention around Romantasy didn't solidify around any one title. You know, the working theory that I think we've come to here on the show together is that there are some sales of every New Romantasy title, but there haven't been hundreds of thousands of units moving around any other one other than Nevesa Allen's book.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Which I also believe was a 2024 release. They got a lot of 2025 juice. So I think I would take this, especially as you said, in a year where affordability has been generally very high, the price of books is high, some book prices increased because of tariffs and also just because of inflation and the industry trying to keep up. We heard about some layoffs and some contraction in the industry in 2025, but not a whole lot. There wasn't like a big WA publishing layoffs. More of that happened in 2024. So this looks like a settling to me and I will take a settling, a plateau especially. You know, it was. There was a lot going on in the world. There continues to be a lot going on in the world. And we're competing for attention, for books with just the general state of the world in addition to all of the other things that people do with their free time. How do you feel about it?

[A]

I mean, in terms of his sales? I guess. Okay, I'm going to transition this to looking at the top 20 best selling books of the year. Because that's where I do not feel okay. For a couple of different reasons. One is, I think this is the second year in the row. I don't remember. I think maybe. Yeah, I think it. Did James make the top 20 last year or.

[B]

No, this is the third year in a row that it's been all white.

[A]

All white people.

[B]

Yeah. You have to go back to 2022 to see an author of color in the top 20 best selling books of the year and it was Michelle Obama for the light, the carrying.

[A]

So that I don't have much else to say. I've said at this point what I can say about this, that the predominance of the algorithm has been an enemy to inclusivity and diversity and expanding the kinds of voices that sell a bunch of books. It's just true. I don't think there's any counter argument to that. I know there are all kinds of success stories further down the sales line but you know, if we wanted to do the old, well we'll know it when we see it for how things are going. You kind of would like the any group of high performing people to kind of roughly mirror the country. And the country is sort of 40ish percent not white. So we would need eight here and we have zero. So we're a long way to go. I would not be surprised if you extended it to 30 or 40 that you still might not have anyone that isn't a white person. I don't know. And then the other thing that happens is it's the dominance of the algorithm in the form of multiple. You know, we've got three fourth wing books and a Sarah J. Maas and you know the Court of Thorns and Roses continues to sell. It's number 20 at 475,000 plus copies and then the lights out. So we're so basically a quarter of the list is Romantasy. Lights out is dark Romantasy. Apparently I know I'd know less about that than the others. And then you add in Frida McFadden who's got three. Three. So right now that's like half of the list. And then the Let Them Theory and Sunrise of the Reaping are at the top. 2.8 million for let them theory. 2 million for sunrise at the reaping. 1.7 for onyx storm and then a huge drop basically half for The Housemaid at 822,000. Diary of the Wimpy Kid. Number 20 is 817,000. Dogman Number 14 is 767. Atomic Habits by James Clear 7. Whoever signed that book, I hope they're running that company by the way, because I sold that much for five or six years at this point. Another Dogman, Dave Pilkey. I guess that's the other thing. Three illustrated kids books. There should be kids books on here.

[B]

But a lot of kids books.

[A]

There's a certain similarity you might be noticing to those 680, 81,000 the Secret of Secrets by Dan Brown. 653,000. I think that's a pretty good result for Dan Brown this year, don't you think? I was going to pause on that. I wouldn't have guessed that. I wouldn't have guessed. He was. I thought. I think people liked the book. It was very Dan Brownie. We did like the book in. In the genre of which it is. But I think they should be very happy with that result.

[B]

I think they should too. And it's been a while since a new Dan Brown book and a really long while since a really good Dan Brown book and Secret of Secrets felt like a return to form. In addition to those new kids books, the Diary of a Wimpy Kid and the Dogman books that you were highlighting, old kids books continue to sell. Every year we talk about, oh, the places you'll Go. Like there's a point in the year where oh, the Places yous'll Go becomes one of the bestselling books and it's right around graduation time. But in addition to that, the Very Hungry Caterpillar is on this list. Brown Bear, Brown Bear, what Do youo See, which was published in 1967, I believe is on the list. And then I Love youe to the Moon and Back by Amelia Hepworth. Also a popular kids book. The other really notable one to me is the Nightingale by Kristen Hannah. Almost half a million copies. 499, 485 here. That book is 10 years old.

[A]

That is Hannah. Success and Rise and Stay There. Staying power for that kind of commercial book club book is really remarkable.

[B]

And I don't have half a million copies a year.

[A]

I don't have an antecedent like 10 years ago. If we look at this list, is there anything like that? We may have to go back and look at that. Some. I don't think so either. It has longer staying power than something like Crawdads, like some one of those big commercial fiction books. I mean that book sold millions of copies of the course of the year. But it's not, you know, it doesn't remain on these lists. I'd like to know how many copies of where the Crawdads Sing are being sold in a year. Right now look for what we do. There's a few items of note here, but a pretty uninteresting list. I have. I've tried to crack the housemaid a couple times just to see and I'll be honest with you. I read a few pages and I was like, I just am not interested.

[B]

I can't do it. I also tried it.

[A]

I'm just not interested. And the movie has done quite well.

[B]

Yeah. That it's fun and messy. Like, one of the reviews I read was like, girls like messes too. Like, let us be disasters. And I was like, oh, maybe. Like, maybe I'll watch this on a plane.

[A]

Yeah. And it had a 35 million dollar budget and it's done 150 million dollars in worldwide box office, which is a wonderful multiplier. And I'm sure it'll do quite well as it goes into, you know, streaming and vod. This is one thing we've learned about adaptations. I'm sure someone's paying attention. If you can make crawdads or it ends with us or this book for $30 million, you're gonna make money.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Now the fantasy, higher concept, way more expensive stuff, we don't know because no one's really rolling the dice on that right now. It's been a long time since we've seen one of those roll the dice. But I would imagine the Nightingale, which is going to start the Fanning sisters as the sis as the. The sisters, which is the best casting that anyone's ever come up with, probably will be a little more expensive because it's historical fiction, but it's also, you don't need to animate a bunch of dragons fighting in the sky. So I'll be curious to see. I think that's probably the next one on the docket in terms of something that's done very well. And I would assume we're going to get a series of Freedom McMahon adaptations.

[B]

Yes. Yeah. And there are a couple more Colleen Hoover adaptations due out in 2026. Those continue to look deranged and just.

[A]

Not for me, poorly made.

[B]

But they're making money.

[A]

Kids are going, not for us. So a, I would say a deflating list. Very little for me to hold my hat on. The best book on this list is Sunrise at the Reaping, in my opinion. I have not read A Court of Thorns and Roses. I probably will at some point, but there you go. All right, Moving on from there. I would be shocked if he did. Rivalry does not make an appearance on this list in 20 as we come through 2026 because it is a phenomenon. And the spike from it's on HBO to literally everyone I know is talking about it or at least knows that exist, is probably faster than any property I can remember. Rebecca and I don't know. I don't know if it's because people were off over sort of break and it came out and the last one sort of crested, but I cannot remember a zero to everybody knows about this with this velocity in a long, long.

[B]

Time for tv, this felt, the fervor was much higher than anything that I've seen in a long time. But the slow pickup the first couple weeks and then rocket ship through the stratosphere felt like maybe when the bear came out that summer, when the bear dropped. And I think they released all the seasons at the same time or all the episodes of the first season at the same. I don't remember, but it was like, come on, let's do this. Like, it took people a couple weeks. This is just next level addictive, sticky. It's fun. I wasn't on the first wave, but I was hearing about this over the holidays. And then you might even hear it in my voice still. Like, I'm getting over a cold. And last weekend was the perfect time to have a cold because all six episodes of Heated Rivalry dropped. And let me tell you, that's good medicine. It's like, this is what I'm doing. I was live texting a friend about it. I 1 million percent get this. I don't do the fandom thing, but it's well made. It was really fun to watch, and it's just an affirming, exciting story. There's some healing parental stuff that I think must have been really, really healing and cathartic for queer people whose parents didn't handle it so well to see. Also, they're just hot. Like, one of the texts that I sent somebody was just, oh, my God, the butts.

[A]

Butts.

[B]

Just butts. Like, great butts. Butts for days. Bob walked through the living room and was like, I don't know what's happening here, but have fun.

[A]

Yeah, Just let me just say that a similar thing happened in my household.

[B]

I was gonna text Michelle and I was like, how is she gonna manage to watch this with two kids running through the house? But it's. I mean, it's spicy. It's exciting. I had missed what like, I'm coming to the cottage means. Like, I didn't know that was a meme until I saw the episode. And when I was texting my friend, like, yes, let's do it. I'm coming to the cottage. It's. I get it. And if you just saw this and wanted more of it immediately, the only thing to do is go read the books because we're Gonna have to wait for the second season. And this is in a series called Game Changers. Heated Rivalry is like the second or third book in the series. And then un, which is due out in September, they announced this week will pick up with Shane and Ilia later in their lives. And like all the announcements, give the spoilers that this picks up where they are married, they're out, and they're facing some public backlash over it. Things are maybe a little bit rocky.

[A]

Michelle has enjoyed hockey romances in sports romance for a while, so I'm not surprised. In sports room sports romances has sold especially. It sounds like this, this, this book was known. She had read the book before the series came out. Do you think we're gonna see a follow on. Are other people gonna pick up like a golf romance or something? Are we gonna see more versions of this? I've.

[B]

I've heard that question going around and there is something. I don't know what it is, but there is something really sticky about the hockey romance.

[A]

Like, I don't understand the hockey ness of it. I. I mean, that's not rhetorical. I believe that it's true.

[B]

Yeah. I don't know what it is. Remember, I was telling friends, even before I watched the show, I was at a holiday party and they were talking about it, and one of them had read the books and the other one was like, I didn't even know hockey romance was a thing. And I was remembering, like a year or two ago, we talked on the show about an article where the hockey romance stuff was just rising and people were out of their minds and kind of harassing some of the hockey.

[A]

Yeah, the Seattle crack.

[B]

Remember this?

[A]

Right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Crack my back. Yeah, I remember this.

[B]

Yeah. And they had to come out and be like, can everybody please be cool? Yes. Everybody, chill out. You can't come to the games and do this. But it was boosting attendance. The books were boosting attendance at actual NHL games, which is also bonkers. So I'm sure that a lot of folks are going to try to port this over to other sports. I don't know what it is about the hockey, but it really seems to work for people.

[A]

I've got a theory. I think there might be something structural, and this might be because I'll talk about an frontless foyer book I read that's got me thinking in the least terms about sports. But in hockey, there's a couple things that happen where players on opposing sides, they're on the ice a lot together. Right. Unlike football, where you have 11 stars on both sides. So it could be offense, defense, but you're not like, I guess maybe if you're linemen smashing into each other literally and figuratively at the line. But then like hockey, you fight, right? And you get up close and you like, like pinch and hold and hug and wrestle and you can spin around and also, you know, you can kind of talk to each other where people can't see that you're talking because of the way the face mask and the helmets are. I just wonder if it gives a sort of intimacy maybe during the game that other. So you can have some scenes where they're interacting during the game where it's sort of impossible in baseball or golf or tennis or those things you, you want. I'm assuming you can tell me that there is some on ice interaction between the lovers.

[B]

There's some, but not a whole lot.

[A]

Oh really? Well, there goes that theory. Thank you very much Jeff. You're doing a great job. Thanks for your contribution.

[B]

There are some ice on the ice, but it's really minimal in the show. I don't know how it plays out in the book, but most of it happens in their hotel rooms when they happen to be in the same city. The story on the show spreads out over six years. They meet in their rookie year and have their first interaction and it's all on the down low. They're hiding this from everybody in their lives. So it'll be like hey, we're going to play each other next month. Am I going to see you then? We're going to compete against each other at the Olympics because one of the characters plays for Russia and the other one plays for Canada. Will I see you then? Can we pull that off? Because it's dangerous to be gay in Russia. There's all sorts of dynamics but I would believe and folks write in and tell us podcastookriot.com, if the like if the on the ice stuff happens more in the books, but it's pretty minimal in the show.

[A]

A good idea that's been well executed and capitalized on. I'm glad everyone's enjoying themselves. Speaking of a good idea well capitalized upon one of our one of my ten 15 year old takes or queries or predictions was authors with names, brands and platforms going direct to consumer more I thought it would be in the form of ebooks especially. It has not happened at scale. In fact what has happened is that the people who had self published connection success, they get integrated into the Borg, Colleen Hoover, Frieda McFadden. I mean really going back to El James, frankly, with 50 shades of gray, and then combine that with another trend that we don't talk about that much on this show because neither of us are consumers of it. Is the subscription book box phenomenon, especially for fantasy, romance and sci fi, curated beautiful, special, expensive editions. Alcrade and a bunch of other people have done this and it's been very meaningful parts of these ecosystems. But Julia Quinn, author of the Bridgerton series, is getting to the game with a curated romance book box. Her favorite historical fiction novels in special editions. And she is especially interested in historical romance. For those of you don't know, Romantasy, which is romance and fantasy smushed together, has been the, I don't know, the apex predator of this particular genre and maybe books at all. But Julia Quinn has the most successful contemporary historical fiction series in the form of Bridgerton, and she is using that to spotlight historical fiction. I think it's interesting to look at the titles and she's, you know, getting some different voices and different kinds of stories in here. I think this is a good idea. I'll be fascinated to see how well this does. I'd love to know the economics of this. I think these are, yeah, custom illustrated end papers. I think these are special editions just for this box. Rebecca, is that your understanding?

[B]

Yes, this is. She's introducing JQ editions. So she has curated these and presumably worked with the publishers to create special editions that are naked, no dust jacket hardcovers, that have custom illustrated end papers, sprayed edges. And she works with each illustrator to make sure that the art is celebrating the story and the author. They're going to be publishing three books in 2026 and six in 2027. So this is pretty limited. The 2026 subscription will only be available on Kickstarter and it hasn't launched yet. So we will have to wait and see, like what the pricing is going. That's all going to play out, but I would expect this to do very well. The question is really, what's the ceiling on it? If anybody is positioned to do this right now, it's Julia Quinn to capitalize on Bridgerton. But there are many other romance authors who could do this. I would love to see. We've talked a lot about how authors of color are not getting nearly as much attention as they should be in genre, especially on algorithmic based social media. I would love to see somebody like Jasmine Guillory curate contemporary romances by authors of color. If this does well, I hope it opens the door and becomes another way that folks who are interested in sort of engaging with this curated stuff, recommendations from their favorite authors. But having special editions can do that. And I'm delighted to see that Quinn seems to be thinking about that here. Alyssa Cole is one of the authors, one of the three authors for 2026.

[A]

I remember when Extraordinary Union came out. Whenever a year that was. And it was a big 2017. Yeah, that was a big deal. It's been a long. Been a little while. Yeah. I'd be curious. I mean, I think there are a lot of other authors. Like if Brandon Sanderson wanted to cure. I mean, he's just selling his own books now, which is. Which is great. I mean, do what you want to do. But there's a version of pivoting a little bit, redirecting some of that shine in a kind of a different way and spreading it around a little bit and also wetting your beak at the same time. Time Very, very possible. Speaking of it's really smart book. Riot selections for the best fantasy books of the century so far is out now. We're going to be doing, I think six of these throughout the year. This one is, you know, what are the books from the last 25ish years that continue to be really impactful good. You know, kind of in the spirit of zero it books. It's. It's sort of particular picks, but also things that have been influential and meaningful and then excellent at the same time. I don't think there are any huge surprises here. I guess what I realize in looking at any of these lists is how long 25 years is because some of these books, like it's only been 25. I mean, 25 years is a long time. But some of the books feel like they've been out for a million years.

[B]

That like a Game of Thrones is included in it. And it feels to me like Game of Thrones has just been around forever.

[A]

Well, we were in a room recently and we were talking about that book and how it's already ascended to sort of Lord of the Rings like status in the fantasy and genre world. And those things start to feel older when they're still around and still technically active. Just because you get that sense of gravitas and sense of world building and then, you know, had a decade's worth of TV shows and more in set in Westeros. A new one coming out, frankly, this Sunday, which I'm excited for. Night of the Seven Kingdoms. I don't know we're going to go through this list except to point people at it. It this is not our particular expertise here. I was pleased to see A Darker Shade of Magic by V E Schwab. I really like that series. That's the first book in that trilogy. Game of Thrones. All the Birds in the Sky, Ember in the Ashes, Babel. Black Leopard, Red Wolf by Marlon James. Children of Blood of Bone by Tomy Ademi. Probably, if we were to do her. Let's. Maybe let's. I'll do this real quick. If we had to pick this.

[B]

The.

[A]

The ones that are sort of more literary that kind of cross over a little bit. I think you look at Circe by Madeline Miller.

[B]

I think you can look at all the Birds in the sky by Charlie Jane Anders.

[A]

My. And many people's beloved Night Circus. I'm not sure that quite. It's. It's pretty. It's more commercial than literary. It's a wonderful book.

[B]

Babel by R.F. kuang.

[A]

Babel. I have never read the Grace of Kings by Ken Liu. I've heard nothing but wonderful things about. Yeah, the Golden Compass is within 25 years. That's on the list.

[B]

That's wild. Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell.

[A]

That feels like I read that when I was a kid.

[B]

Yeah. That feels like a book I've always known.

[A]

Saga, volume one. Tremendous.

[B]

But also your beloved legends and lattes.

[A]

I know. I know, though. I think I've done two books and I think I'm good. There's a third book out and I've looked at it several times and I. I don't think I'm going to continue.

[B]

We're just not really serious people.

[A]

No, I'm not. Right. Once I've gotten. Once I know it's gonna. It's gonna be like, I guess it was every five years, Dan Brown style. I could maybe get on board with it because I kind of remind myself it's like. It's like going back to a restaurant in my hometown that I used to love when I was a kid and someone just to remind myself what it's like. But every year, every two years, is too often for a series for me. Well done over there. We'll have more of those and maybe we'll dive into more of them as they're more in our strengths and interest area. The new year brings new health goals and wealth goals. Protecting your identity is an important step. Your info is in endless places that could expose you to identity theft, leading to lost funds. Lifelock monitors millions of data points per second. If your identity is stolen, our restoration specialists will fix it, guaranteed. Or your money back. Resolve to make identity, health and wealth part of your New year's goals. With LifeLock, save up to 40% your first year. Visit LifeLock.com podcast Terms apply looking to.

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[A]

You know, this idea didn't occur to me, Rebecca, but I felt so dumb when you dropped this link in here that the Royal Shakespeare Company is doing a tour of a play version of Hamnet, which is a good idea.

[B]

It is a. It is a good idea. They've had the play version of Hamnet for years, but they are going to bring it to the US on tour so you can have your five alarm snot bomb moment next to a whole bunch of other people Live. It's a critically acclaimed stage adaptation. It's going to be at Chicago's Shakespeare Theater in February, February through March, and then we'll be in Washington D.C. march through April. Maybe I'll try to get up to D.C. to see it and then in San Francisco in April and May so you can look for some of those dates. But it's adapted by Lolita Chakrabarti. She took this it's been directed by Erica Wyman, who's a former acting and artistic director of the Royal Shakespeare Company and of course centers on Agnes Hathaway. And I'm now very interested having seen the film about how the play versus the movie track with the book because there are some significant differences to the film, but it does some things that movies can do that plays can't do. So I, I'm, I'm very interested to see that. If somebody wants to come cry with me in D.C. we'll see about that.

[A]

It looks like Variety. I'm looking at the article Right now has a takeover of ads for Wuthering Heights, the movie coming out right now. I'm not sure if you're seeing the same thing.

[B]

Picking up the. There was a piece, I think in the Hollywood Reporter this morning about the mar. Yeah. Merch that's coming out for Wuthering Heights and really confirms our suspicions that no one has read this book. Like, there's like sexy red Wuther Heights dresses and like an eye mask that says kiss me again and just.

[A]

You need the eye mask to cover your black eye that Heathcliff gives you.

[B]

What are we doing here?

[A]

Yeah. Anyway, we have. We'll have more to say about Wuthering Heights in the future here. Maybe in this pod, maybe another one. Who knows who can say this? George Saunders is beginning his pre publicity and I agree with you that the. The interview by David Marchese in the Times, which came out last week.

[B]

Just give yourself the gift. I listened to it on the New York Times interview podcast. You want to listen to George Saunders talk with David Marchese? It is wonderful. He's wise, he's human, he's humane. He refers a couple of times to that Chekhov quote that he's been talking about since Vigil was announced of a good book doesn't have to answer a question. It just has to formulate it correctly, which I now that's at the top of my list of like, things to tattoo on my soul. Just such a thoughtful, lovely guy. This is going to be a hell of a press tour for Vigil. Like, it was interesting to me that the Saunders interview dropped a couple of weeks before the book comes out. And that makes me wonder, like, what else are we going to see from George while he's out on tour?

[A]

Yeah. There's one question and it feels like I didn't know where it was going and I didn't know this about him. Where Marchese asks, I've seen you mention passing that you were a younger man when you were a younger man. You were an Ann Rand, a Rand Republican. Do you remember how you came to those beliefs and how you wound up rejecting them? I encourage people to read the answer to that. I think it's relatable and specific and very George Saunders, but a really wonderful interview.

[B]

Yeah. George Saunders now also our best, like, public advertisement for Buddhism meditation. I think if anybody's gonna sell you, it's gonna be him.

[A]

Yeah. All right, Time for Frontless Way, brought to you by Thriftbooks, where you can find more than 19 million titles to choose from. Also DVDs, Blu Rays, used books, games, movies. I just saw today that One Battle the After Another and the Secret Agent. Some others got added to the Criterion Collection which you could buy them on Blu Ray if you are a physical media. Convert US folks free shipping and orders of over $15 and each purchase gets you closer to a reading reward redemption. Check out thriftbooks.com read more and spend left with Thriftbooks. Rebecca, what have you been reading? You've got a bunch here.

[B]

Yeah, I've had a pretty good little reading streak over the holidays. I read how to Cook a Coyote by Betty Fussell. I had not heard of her. I don't know where I've been. She's a well known food writer and she's an old woman now. She's like near 100. But this is her latest memoir and it's notes about being old, about coming of old age. In her, I believe, late 80s, she left her longtime home in New York and moved to the same retirement home in Montecito or Santa Barbara that Julia Child had retired to. And she's written this from that place about her experience being old. Coyote in the title is sort of her metaphor for knowing that death is coming and how she's reckoning with the end of life.

[A]

But Old lady's waiting to die.

[B]

Yes, yes, yes. And she's like real goals. Like this is largely about her life in that place with her friends there and reflections on the life that she has lived. She strikes me as the kind of old woman that people describe as spry and it probably pisses her off like.

[A]

She'S I would like to be described as spry right now. For the record, that will never piss me off. Just I'm not speaking for her. I'm speaking for me.

[B]

Yeah, just sharp, really funny, you know, reflecting on love affairs and what cooking has meant in her life. Life. Not really a book about being a food writer or a food person, but just a book about, you know, living her life as an older person. I tore through it. It was wonderful. I also tore through Crux by Gabriel Tallant. And I know you're going to be.

[A]

Interviewing him at Powell's a week from today's January 15th. So January 22nd, Powell, 7pm Come see us. It's free.

[B]

Yes, great friendship novel about Dan and Tama, who are high school seniors in the desert of New Mexico. And they're obsessed with rock climbing. They're from very different families, their mom or friends, but had a falling out decades ago and they are getting up early, going to climb rocks in the desert taking risks with their lives. They're both thinking about what that means to them. They're thinking about what their friendship means to them, the possible futures that are available to them. It's really funny and has like wonderful friendship banter moments. They're maybe a little smarter and quicker than I think 17 year olds actually are.

[A]

We don't want to read real 17 year olds, Rebecca. I think that's one thing we learned over the course of time from Perks of the Being Wal Flower to Gilmore Girls to whoever.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. But it was on a ton of most anticipated 2026 lists and I think rightfully so. I expect us to see it on some, you know, best ofs when we get there. I really enjoyed it.

[A]

I think it's pretty good book club potential, don't you?

[B]

Yeah, I think that's a great point. Yes. There's a lot that you could hook onto and have a book club conversation. And then I've also read one of your picks recently.

[A]

I was so excited when I saw this here, Tell me about about it.

[B]

Two Women Living Together by Kim Hana and wang Sun Woo. Two Korean women who in their 40s were both single and decided to basically combine their spending power and get an apartment together or they buy a home together and they co write it. So the chapters don't bounce just abab. But it mostly does that where we're getting both of their perspectives on how they came to this choice and the things that they've learned living together. It's a little more practical than I was.

[A]

Oh really?

[B]

One of them is a real almost hoarder, pack rat kind of person and the other one is very tidy and they talk from their different perspectives about what their experience was moving in together. The one being frustrated by the other's messiness, the messy one being frustrated by feeling judged for the way she lived, how they came to, how they've learned to resolve their conflicts. They're both successful writers, one is a magazine editor and so they also talk about their careers and what it's like to be in your mid-40s and have come to the conclusion that like you are going to be a single person. You don't want to be married, you're not going to have kids. So you've made this choice to share your life with someone else and to have a housemate, a companion. Like how we learned to resolve conflict, like what it felt like to make the compromises along the way. I think I was hoping for something that was a little bit closer to the like big friendship by Anne Friedman.

[A]

More reflective and philosophical than sort of like yeah, what if they don't pick up their dirty dishes? Huh?

[B]

Right. A little more of like the golden girls of it all. But I did really appreciate where they were coming from and I think there's a lot to be said for the practical nature of like they didn't know each other super well. They weren't best friends when they decided to do this.

[A]

That's the strangest thing of it all.

[B]

Yeah. So how do you make that choice and come to like let's try this. Let's live together. And when you've got to negotiate like whose tea kettle you keep you know are we going to have the wagon wheel coffee table? But you don't have the foundation of you're married to this person to motivate you to do the compromise. How does that work out? I'm glad that you surfaced that in your catalog dives. I'm glad to have read it.

[A]

I think I will still probably read it. I don't think it's very long and I am very willing to try something that's not very long like as much of as resistance I give to a long book. It's sort of asymptotically approaches I will try almost anything that's short couple of sports books for me to start the new year Expensive Basketball by Shea Serrano who this he has one of those modern writing careers which he has a very popular substack. He also does some his own publishing of his books and others short stories has some merch and then also publishes traditionally this is through his shet I don't remember which imprint is right now now and each chapter is an appreciation of particular player from Caitlin Clark to Tim Duncan. All mostly WNBA and NBA. I don't think there's a college chapter that I recall and he's just really funny. I've liked him ever since I read him on Grantland back in the day and through the ringer and then followed him into his independent career. Really funny and a good gift if you have a basketball lover in your life for a birthday or Father's Day or if you just like basketball yourself yourself. Nice one to have on the coffee table. Beautifully illustrated as well. And then I listened to Football by Chuck Klosterman which comes out January 20th. I loved it. I thought the 90s was the book he was born to write but really it's football because he's been a passionate football fan for a long time. He played football in high school. He's played Madden College football with the same guy for multiple decades, like thousands and thousands of games against. Really good story about how that happened. He thinks very interestingly about football. One of his many arguments about football is that its success is largely tied to it being a wonderful television product and the rhythms of the game and how it's put together and the ebbs and flows and how you shoot it. You need a bunch of cameras like it's made. It's not made. It wasn't intentional. It just happened to be the best possible sport for television. Thinks interestingly about race in football and concussions and the politics and the identity formation and masculinity. And he predicts football's eventual fall from being the if we have a monolithic TV moment, it certainly is football. Something like 97 of the top 100 TV broadcasts of last year were football games. I mean, I just like I like listening to Klosserman's Brain Works. I also like he could very easily be a podcaster. No shades to podcasts, love podcast love to many of them, love to listen to him or a substacker. But what he's chosen to do is take that kind of energy and focus into a book and print one every three years. And it feels like it's been cared for more. Rebecca. It just does. It's kind of like he's not the stylist that Zadie Smith is, but you can tell the attention to ideas and the thinking through and the research and the consideration and the time spent with these issues, especially since he's been really thinking about it, even if he didn't know about it since he's like 7 years old and, you know, watching on this North Dakota carpet in front of a TV. But like, you could just tell the difference of it's just different, right? It's just a different kind of attention.

[B]

Dwell with ideas longer when you're not on a weekly production schedule. Do you think that I or someone who's not a big football fan would like this? Because I'm intrigued by the blurb I've seen for it, which is like, how to Understand America, the story of America through the lens of football. But I don't know if that's blurb.

[A]

Verbology or I think it's the essays are more there's references between them. But you could just pick out a couple of the essays. Like, I think if you read the first chapter or listen to the third chapter and find yourself interested, do it. He's especially a great narrator. It sounds like him thinking, I don't know how much, how effortful it is to him sound like Chuck Klosterman thinking out loud, or if that's just the way that it comes out. But either way, it's a wonderful listening experience. I, I, I am not sure. I have watched football for a long time. I'm not the hardest core fan, but I do watch some football and I found myself extraordinarily intrigued. He, he writes from the position of he wants to and he said this, I think if you remember, in the 90s, he wanted to document what the 90s felt like to someone who lived through it. Yeah, he was, he says, explicitly getting he wants to doc. This book is not written for anyone that's alive live, necessarily. It's like, clearly I want to sell the book, but I'm really thinking about making a document of how it felt to be an observer, a fan of football at the moment of its greatest popularity and ascendance. What was it like? What did we understand? What did we think about? What could be thought about at that moment? Because eventually it's going to be like he compares it to Roman gladiators. Right. Which most people largely understand. And it's a vestige of some sort of cultural representation that's been mediated through thousands of years. But he's like, what's going to feel like to go back and look at football and what it meant and what it didn't mean and how it came to be be and put in that context. I don't know if that's more or less interesting to you, but that's what he's trying to do is take a real big picture approach.

[B]

I do like a big picture approach. We'll put it on the maybes.

[A]

On the maybes. So that's our show. Come see me and Gabriel Talent January 22nd at Pals Downtown at Burnside, 7pm it's free link in the show notes bookright.com listen or in your handy little podcast player. Right now, go check out zero to well read. Go sign up for the Patreon. All those links are available to you there, Rebecca. They can also email us at podcast. Rebecca, thanks so much. I hope you're feeling better.

[B]

Thank you. Y' all have a good week.