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- [00:01]
Vanessa Diaz
Spring break isn't what it used to be. It's better this spring. Stay three nights and get a $50 Best Western gift card. Life's a trip. Make the most of it at best Western.
- [00:11]
Kim Snyder
Visit bestwestern.com for complete terms and conditions.
- [00:18]
Leo Laporte
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- [00:50]
Vanessa Diaz
You're listening to the Book Riot Podcast. I'm Vanessa Diaz and I'm flying solo this week while Jeff and Rebecca are out. I am not going to be talking into a microphone by myself for an hour, though. I get to bring you an interview that I'm so excited to share. I was able to sit down with Kim Snyder, who is the director of a really important documentary film called the Librarians, as well as two of the librarians who participated in the film. This film is one that I think you will care about as listeners of this show and as people who care about reading and intellectual freedom and democracy. It's all about librarians fighting this unprecedented wave of book bans targeting books about race and LGBTQ issues and American history and what it's been like for them to be the frontline defenders of intellectual freedom and democracy and the First Amendment when censorship and harassment have been on the rise. It takes us back to 2021 when something called the Kraus List was unleashed in Texas schools. You should listen to the episode for the deep dive and I will let you do so for sure. But it is such an eye opening look at what's been going on that you may think you already know about, but I promise you it is way more eye opening than you were probably expecting. There will be links in the show notes for how to watch the film. It is potentially showing a theater near you, but also very excitingly, it is premiering on PBS to stream as of Monday, February 9th. So links in the show notes for all of that to make sure to check it out and to stay for the interview. They just have so much wonderful information to impart about the film and also about librarianship in general. First, a little bit of housekeeping. Make sure to check out zero to well read. Last week's episode was all about go tell it on The Mountain by James Baldwin. It was a really, really good one and the one coming out this week is another absolute banger that I just realized I don't know if I'm allowed to reveal. So let's just say that it is timely, especially if you are somebody who watches films. If you are not yet a member of our Patreon community, for zero to Roll Red you should be because you a get a free companion newsletter that I actually write. It's fun, it's free, it's got lots of extra credit stuff both for stuff covered in the episode and also some juicy bits outside. And if you are a paid member of the Patreon, then you actually already have access and add free early access to this week's episode. So check out the Patreon. You can also follow along on Instagram, on TikTok, and also on YouTube. So go do all those things. Now let's dive into this wonderful interview with Kim Snyder, Carolyn Foote and Martha Hickson. But before we do that, let's hear from a sponsor.
- [03:15]
Sponsor Voice (Quince)
This podcast is supported by Quince this time of year always feels like the right reset point for my wardrobe. Not a full seasonal overhaul, but it's a moment to swap in lighter layers and make sure the basics are really doing their job. My husband and I both end up taking stock of what we wear most, and more often than not we're filling in those gaps with staples from Quince. I've been shopping with them for years and it's become a go to for both of us when we want things that feel thoughtful, reliable and easy to wear. Quince really excels at men's everyday essentials organic cotton sweaters, versatile polos, and lighter jackets that work across changing temperatures, which is important for where we live. These are the kinds of pieces that make a wardrobe feel intentional without being fussy, because who wants that and everything designed to stand up to regular wear and still look good season after season. We added a few organic cotton sweaters and polos from Quince to my husband's wardrobe during this refresh and they have quickly become some of his most worn pieces. They're comfortable, they wash well, and they always look pulled together even, and especially on days when he doesn't want to think too hard about what to wear. Refresh your wardrobe with quince. Go to quince.com bookriot for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. It's now available in Canada too. Quincy free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com bookriot.
- [04:42]
Sponsor Voice (TechCrunch Daily Crunch)
From the latest in artificial intelligence to new apps and business upgrades, the tech industry is always changing and growing. So keep up with the Daily Crunch podcast from TechCrunch. With new episodes released nearly every day, the Daily Crunch gives you a brief overview of the biggest tech headlines. And it's all delivered in around five minutes or less, so you can easily hear about the latest updates while trying some of those updates for yourself. Listen to the Daily Crunch now. Wherever you get your podcasts, that's the Daily Crunch. Wherever you get your podcasts.
- [05:16]
Leo Laporte
Hey everybody, it's Leo laporte. I hope you'll join me and Steve Gibson every Tuesday for Security now. This week we talk about an antivirus program that infects its own users. That's not good. The notepad hack that's really not good. And how MongoDB has lowered the hacking skill level bar to the floor. It's just too easy to hack. Every week, Steve Gibson tells you everything you need to know about security on Security Now. You'll find it at TWiT, TV, SN, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [05:50]
Vanessa Diaz
I am here with Kim Snyder, Martha Hickson and Carolyn Foote, who are here to talk to me about the Librarians, an important documentary film directed by Kim Snyder and executive produced by Sarah Jessica Parker. This will be of particular interest to Book Writer Book Book Writer Book Riot readers and listeners. I know where I work and should be to all readers and just people. It's a film with a really urgent message for anyone who cares about literacy, of course, but also intellectual freedom and democracy and just basic human rights. So we're going to talk about the film, how it got made, why it got made, the reception and its message. But first, of course, I want to tell you a little bit about our esteemed guests. So we have Kim Snyder, who is the director of the Librarians. She's a director and producer and Peabody Award winning filmmaker of films like Newtown Us Kids and Lessons From School Shooting, which document the they're just intimate portraits really of the aftermath of the Parkland shooting, the Marjory Stoneman Douglas shooting, and I believe the Sandy Hook shooting, as an advocate for using film to advocate for the for better treatment of children and just again, advocacy at large. We also have Martha Hickson, who is a film participant in the Librarians, who is the recipient of the 2022 Lemony Snicket Prize for Noble Librarians Faced with Adversity and a strong advocate for LGBTQ books despite being called a pedophile and pornographer at a Public school board meeting by a group of parents demanding to have a handful of books pulled with these themes. We also have Carolyn Foote, another one of our film participants, who is a retired 29 year Texas school librarian and co founder of the Texas Freedom Fighters, a Tex grassroots group advocating for the freedom to read. She advocates for student voices and for the right to read and has been recognized by the White House as a champion of change. Thank you so much for joining me here today.
- [07:35]
Carolyn Foote
Thank you.
- [07:36]
Vanessa Diaz
Yes, I'm so glad to talk to you. I didn't know, just for the listeners, which librarians would be joining today until approximately 20, 30 minutes ago. And it was very much like, oh, I just saw these people's faces on my screen. And it feels a little bit like a celebrity sighting, which is great, I suppose. So, Kim, if you could start by just telling me how you decided to embark on this project. Clearly, you've dedicated so much of your work to highlighting some of these awful moments in our history. How did this particular issue kind of come to be in your awareness?
- [08:08]
Kim Snyder
Well, my projects often come by instinct when I hear a story or see something. This was new because, as you said, I'd been covering a lot in the space of, of gun violence. Now when I look back, I understand that there's a very clear through line thematically which has to do with depriving youth of some fundamental rights that they should have. But it all started in the fall of 21, when I became aware of what became known as the Kraus List, when this list of 850 books had been issued by State Representative Kraus in Texas. And we understood that there were these 850 books that were school librarians were being asked to review and remove from shelves. And at that time, I also understood that these were, that the list was predominantly targeting books about race and gender, LGBTQ characters. And I also came to learn that Carolyn and two of her esteemed colleagues, colleagues had formed something called the Freedom Fighters and that they were beginning to react to this, speak out and organize. And we're hearing from librarians not just in Texas, but beyond. And so I immediately was taken with this story and idea and have learned to move on those instincts and called Carolyn and Becky and Nancy Jo and said, you know, I'd love to, to talk to you about possibly doing a documentary. At the time, I didn't know if it would be short. I didn't know if it would be just Texas. You sort of never know that you've started. I should know by now, but that you've started on a what is now a four year journey, but that's what it became. And they were very obliging. They were doing some media, but at that time, most of the media was short form news pieces there. I hadn't seen anything that was really connecting a lot of the dots traversing the country and hadn't seen anything that really centered on the librarians as a through line, the siege on the librarians and the human toll and what it meant. And so that felt different than just the book banning. There are these books and, and that, and that's where it began. I went to Texas and started to collaborate and build trust. And here we are four years later.
- [10:49]
Vanessa Diaz
Here we are indeed. I'm going to give a little bit of background on the Krause list, as you said. Most of our listeners here, by the way, are very, very familiar with this stuff because I'm a regular kind of appearance guest, I should say, on the show. And it feels like every time I come, it doesn't matter when it is. It could be a Tuesday in April or a Thursday in October. There's always some kind of update or story about book bans and censorship, a story that Kelly Jensen, our senior editor, whom many of you may know her very well by now, likes to make fun of me. And I tell her she can is she years ago proposed this idea for what is now a very famous newsletter in certain circles called Literary Activism that is specifically dedicated to covering book bans and censorship. And when she first proposed it to me as her manager, I said, yes, that sounds like a great idea. Hopefully we just there's enough to keep covering this on a weekly cadence. And that's like famous last words, right? Because that thing has been going for years now. But one of the first pieces that we have up on the site about this was from a piece about the Kraus list, which in October 2021, Texas Republican state Representative Matt Kraus sent this letter to the Texas Education agency, I think 16 pages long, if I recall, and basically said, hey, are any of the books on this list in your schools and how much money has been spent on those books? Danica Ellis, I believe one of our editors also did a piece on this for the site, pointing out that the bill itself was probably related anyway to House Bill 3979, which was that anti CRT bill that was meant to quote, unquote, they wanted to protect kids against books that could cause them to feel discomfort, guilt, anguish, any form of psychological distress, and of course, heavy air quotes and all of that. But the bill, notably, didn't ever actually even mention school libraries. And that's, of course, part of what was infuriating. There's much more that ended up being. But because of this increase in book bans, Krauss is like, yeah, we're just going to preemptively remove all the books on this list. And that was to the tune of, as Kim noted, 850 books. Of course, that's terrifying. And that is sort of where this film opens, as Kim has described. So, for Carolyn and Martha, I'm wondering if you could talk to me both about what the experience was like, even in those, I guess, if we can call them nascent stages of seeing what was happening. And then also about your own participation, like how you decided to participate in the film.
- [12:57]
Carolyn Foote
Thank you for the filling in the backstory about Matt Krause when he sent this list to superintendents around the state, sort of out of thin air. And we saw the titles that were on the list, A few of my colleagues and I, we'd already been working together because of the previous bills that you mentioned, and just trying to put together some workshops to prepare librarians for what to do. And then when we saw that and our governor sort of doubled down on it and said, you know, we've got to get pornography out of libraries, it signaled a whole new direction they were taking this. And we felt like we had to stand up and. And represent the truth about diverse books and school libraries and the work librarians do. And that's really how we. We got started and how we didn't mean to found anything, honestly. We did a Twitter hashtag takeover the Texas Ledge hashtag. And we had so much response to that that we felt like, okay, people are hungry to know what to do and for more information. And so then we started our social media accounts and our website, but. And that's when CNN found us and Kim found us. And, you know, we were so shocked because several documentary filmmakers approached us within the same couple of weeks. Kim was the first. And we were just sort of floored, like, what is even happening right now? But had looked research her other films and could tell that she was a serious and excellent storyteller. But it was a very strange and heady experience being all mic'd up to go into the conference or riding around the car with, you know, the sound on and cameras. But I'm so happy that we participated because I think better than little snip snippets on social media, having the full story put together, that really helps people dig in and understand it in a deeper way, really is the best way to change hearts and minds. So I'm so glad that we did it. And along the way in our work, we connected with Martha and saw what was happening to her and other people who are in the film. And so, so we built this little network of people over time. But I'll pitch it to Martha and see how she got involved.
- [15:34]
Martha Hickson
Thanks, Carolyn. My involvement in this issue writ large started on September 28, 2021. And if you've been following the timeline, that's when a group of parents showed up at the board meeting to attack those books you mentioned. And also, by the way, to attack me. September 28, 2021, made me one of the first librarians in the country to be so targeted. I mean, that's even before the crafts list came out. So I started scrambling right away to defend the library, the books, the kids, and myself. And it was a very lonely experience. So I was extremely excited and heartened when about a month later, I started seeing reports coming out of Texas of the work that Becky and Carolyn and Nancy Jo were doing. And eventually we started bumping into each other as presenters in various webinar spaces and podcasts. So our. Our ideas and our work just kind of combine naturally, organically, as far as the My participation in the film goes, that really evolved from an article that I wrote for School Library Journal. It appeared in the February 2022 issue. Because I was sort of an early adopter of defending myself against book banners. School Library Journal had reached out to ask if I would write this piece from a first person perspective about what it's like to be at the center of this kind of battle. And I really had to think about that for a few days because I already had all eyes on me in my community, and it was a very uncomfortable experience. And I had no desire to become the poster child for book banning. But as I thought about it and I reflected on how lonely and terrifying this experience was for me, I thought, you know, if I could write down what I'm going through and how I'm handling it, it would help other librarians around the country in the same boat. And as soon as that article appeared, I started getting communication from media outlets literally around the world. So by the time Kim found me, and she found me through Jonathan Friedman at Pen America, that article led Jonathan to me, and he and I have since formed a very nice friendship. By the time Kim found me, it was not my first time in front of a camera or in front of a documentary camera, for that matter. But again, I had to think, oh, gosh, do I really want to continue to. To be out there? But as soon as I spoke to Kim and her producer, Janique, my confidence soared. And then when I saw some examples of her work, her pedigree is just outstanding, and her commitment to these issues is unparalleled. So I was like, count me in.
- [18:17]
Vanessa Diaz
Oh, that's beautiful. Yes, I absolutely. Upon realizing that it was Kim that was attached to this project, it's like, okay, she's going to approach this with the care that it deserves, with the nuance, with the perspective. And something that gets reiterated a lot when we talk about librarians in general, and I think is probably said in the film I know was recently said at the Westport screening that y' all did, is that, you know, librarians don't get into this profession to expect to be these public, famous figures in any way. In fact, it's probably completely the opposite. You're the superheroes behind the desk that, you know, are advocating for all of these basic rights and for enthusiasm for reading. But never once did any of you go into this career being like, yeah, one day I'm going to be sitting on this documentary with a mic in my face talking about defending the freedom to read, even if it is at the core of your profession. And I wanted to ask him what the process was of approaching librarians. I have to imagine, for all the reasons, especially that Martha just articulated that that was the thing a lot of folks had really taken to consideration because it was going to make them now even more public faces than they would have been to begin with. But I was also so heartened that as I sat down to watch the film, I was writing down individual names as y' all appeared on the screen, thinking this wouldn't be a huge task. And by the end, you know, lots and lots of names because there's so many participants. So what was the reaction you got when you started to approach librarians both to be on camera and just to participate in the project?
- [19:33]
Kim Snyder
Well, it started in. In that spring of 22, when we had decided to explore this with Carolyn and company. And it was the first TLA that was happening, I think, since COVID So they had been apart for quite a while. So there was the. There was the double kind of whammy of post Covid and the Kraus list, you know, the time after that. And there was a lot of trauma, a lot of really palpable trauma. We had already established some kind of A rapport. And I really am very grateful that Carolyn and team began to speak to. Gently to other librarians. If you. At the conference, if you want to talk to this team, they're here. And honestly, you know, it's always hard to compare trauma. Trauma is trauma. But I had gone through the experience of material that was incredibly traumatic. You know, what can be more traumatic than a community of people who've had their children murdered in a school shooting? But I had a certain experience and knowledge of working around trauma. And I definitely experienced what was going on there. A very different kind of trauma, but as trauma and how to. How to interact with it, how to approach it. And one of the things I learned from way back, from our Newtown movie was something that we worked at that time. We worked with the church and we had people come as they felt, to bear witness. And it's a very different thing. I think both Martha and Carolyn would say this, this. It's not to in any way discredit mainstream media, you know, when 2020 comes in and sets up, you know, but there is something that is different about lending a camera to. To bear witness, to give testimony. When we did that in Newtown, it was in the bottom of a church. We literally left the room sometimes and let people just emote. And that. That day, Carolyn, if you remember, in the hotel at the tla, you know, I think I took a little bit from that experience of having people feel that. That there was something, you know, gentler about this process. If they changed their mind, they could. And it was really in service of, in many ways, letting them, you know, be able to get something off their chest, to be able to not feel, to feel seen, to feel less alone in this. And that's where it all began. And we met Suzette that way that the news had just been breaking about her case in Llano, that she had been fired. Literally while we were there, we pivoted and said, gee, what if we were to follow you back to Llano? How would you feel? She was open to that. And then it became a little wizard of Oz ish in that we kept picking up people. And as Martha said, and my job as a storyteller was to make sure that this was a story. Now, you don't know where the story's going back in 21, but I like to think as a narrative, we started along with them as collaborators in tracking the shock, the trauma. And then it evolved into exploration, discovery, which to me was in. In the case of more a part of an empowerment was, you know, there's a part where Martha says, being a librarian, I started to research and when we get to Martha in New Jersey, it's a way of saying, you know, this is not just Texas and Florida where people might expect it. This has gone well beyond and we're starting to dig deeper about what might be underneath this. And of course we expose that there's something very well organized and well funded and not what a lot of people might think have been led to think it is. So, you know, Martha's sort of pivot in the story is a very critical one. And then ultimately I think empowerment and you know, our story's still being written, we're still all on a precipice is where we land. That's one of the hard thing is to know when to end a story that is still unfolding.
- [23:57]
Vanessa Diaz
It's unfolding. Yes.
- [23:58]
Kim Snyder
Yeah.
- [23:59]
Vanessa Diaz
For our listeners. Suzette is one of the librarians featured in the documentary and and of course I will let you and encourage you to watch it so you can get her full story. But has this really heartbreaking story of essentially, I mean, the most brass tacks of it is she asked a question about the book she was being asked to pull and that was basically all it took for her to suddenly get her job pulled out from under her. And her case has been one that has been unfolding and that I think was unfolding as late as maybe December 2025. I believe she ended up winning the settlement for one of her cases for wrongful termination. But, but anyway, the way just one example of many in the film.
- [24:36]
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- [25:07]
Martha Hickson
We heard you.
- [25:07]
Vanessa Diaz
Nine years of bring back the snack.
- [25:09]
Martha Hickson
Wrap and you've won.
- [25:11]
Vanessa Diaz
But maybe you should have asked for more. Say hello to the hot honey Snack wrap.
- [25:17]
Martha Hickson
Now you've really won. Go to McDonald's and get it while you can.
- [25:22]
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- [25:52]
Vanessa Diaz
Something that you just said got me to thinking about. Like I said, we don't want to disparage mainstream media. We love that of course they're interested in covering it. But a thing that I, Kelly Jensen, her ears are ringing somewhere and she doesn't know why, is that when folks finally started paying attention, this was. It felt like after a year, or in some cases more, after folks who were on the ground had already been screaming about this. The phrase, you know, canary in a coal mine gets thrown out a lot. And one of Kelly's frustrations was how so much of the narrative that was getting pushed into mainstream was maybe not entirely helpful in that it was like, oh, it's actually good for an author to get their book banned. Or like, oh, just go out and buy a bunch of books and show them what's what, you know? And librarians were like, no, that is not what we're trying to like to accomplish here. So I was wondering if Carolyn and Martha could speak a little bit to about, like, what is a common misconception that you wish maybe folks watching this film will finally get out of their brains? Or what is a more useful tack to take that you are, I guess, appreciative that this film was able to put forth versus what you were seeing in mainstream coverage?
- [26:52]
Martha Hickson
There's one thing.
- [26:55]
Vanessa Diaz
You go ahead, Martha, you go first. There's.
- [26:57]
Martha Hickson
There's one that's actually articulated in the film by one of the most colorful characters that Kim unearthed, Monica Brown.
- [27:03]
Vanessa Diaz
Monica, pause for hiss.
- [27:07]
Martha Hickson
Monica asks, you know, you have so many books in your library. What's the harm of getting rid of just these few? And we hear that a lot, especially from school administrators. You know, oh, come on, you can. You can afford to get rid of this one book. And you know what those who aren't living library every day don't understand is that collections are built with intention and very deliberately and very carefully. And every book is on that shelf for a reason because it takes a special and specific approach to the topic. It may contain unique features or it appeals to a unique audience. So when you remove that just one book, you're removing a heck of a lot more than paper, ink and glue.
- [27:53]
Vanessa Diaz
No, that's so important to know. Yes, thank you so much. How about you, Carolyn?
- [27:57]
Carolyn Foote
I also think that people didn't realize, sort of, number one, the widespread nature of it and the film makes that clearer and that it wasn't just about the drama at the school board meetings, which I do think some of the mainstream media was picking up up, but sort of the stories behind that that weren't being told about the students that were showing up, the board meetings and the, their stories and then the, the money trail part of it. But I also find that both from the film and also just when we've been on panels in public places, like at bookstores, for example, the things that people are most shocked by is the ongoing harassment of librarians and the personal harassment. And I. So I think the film was able to, to show the harassment. It's one thing to read about it and it's another thing to see it. And I think that that is a thing that sort of nudges people.
- [29:06]
Vanessa Diaz
Yeah.
- [29:06]
Carolyn Foote
To go, wait a minute. You know, this is going beyond what I, what I thought, what I thought was happening. Yes. And of course, you know, people are trying to, to help but don't often know what to do. And so that's, you know, you see that reflected in some of these, like, well, just buy a book. And just the lack of understanding of the whole, the whole situation, the ecosystem.
- [29:31]
Vanessa Diaz
Yes. Kim, I think you had a thought there.
- [29:33]
Kim Snyder
Oh, I was just thinking when Martha pulled out that one reference to Monica Brown and the question that it's, it's, it's sort of life imitating art where it's echoing the clip that, you know, we intersperse these moments in cinema history. But it echoes the scene of a Bette Davis scene in a 1956 movie that I was so happy to discover, which is verbatim kind of what happened to Suzette. But you, you have one of the, the city council men saying exactly the same thing to Bette Davis. You know, what's the harm in just taking out this one little book?
- [30:11]
Vanessa Diaz
The juxtapositions of media were one of the most striking aspects of the film, which is something I think anybody who's paying attention didn't maybe need to be told. But it's still seeing it so black and white to be maybe too obvious there. But to have the book burnings in Nazi Germany immediately juxtaposed with something happening in modern day Tennessee. And not just the actual act of it, but the glee that seemed to really fill the hearts of the folks who were throwing books into the fire and how exciting it was for folks to get to participate was really like, hey, in case you needed to see it starkly placed in front of your eyes, there it is. Which obviously was intentional on your part, but it was still really sobering. I wanted to ask about the, like, librarian reaction or just reaction at large. I was. I go to ALA every year as a. Just a regular book person, obviously not a librarian. And I know the film was screened, I think, this last year at Philly. I didn't get to watch it shout out to my sales director for scheduling 48 meetings in two days. But I did run by, and I heard. I could hear reactions, actions in the room. And it is also said in. I've heard it covered several times that so many of the librarians in the room and other book professionals that were there were actually gasping and making these, like, shocked noises when the harassment as Carolyn touched on was made so obvious. I really hope you would both. Yeah. Speak a little bit more on what you kind of touched on, which is that this is not just an issue that is impacting what folks decide are these conservative pockets and, like, that's it. So, like, if I'm in that, quote, unquote, liberal state or what I consider a liberal county, like, we're safe. This isn't happening to us.
- [31:42]
Martha Hickson
Did you.
- [31:42]
Vanessa Diaz
Do you find that, like, when you talk to librarians from other places, like, has everybody always been kind of on board if this is bad, or do you still get encountered with shock from folks that are from other pockets that, like, didn't. Maybe they were, like, slower to latch onto the fact that this was something we all needed to be concerned about?
- [31:57]
Carolyn Foote
Well, I was just thinking of when it had a showing at ncte, which is the National Council of Teachers of English, a month or two ago, and I was delayed in coming into the hall, and these two women came up to me just literally sobbing for, like, minutes talking to me about this film. And for two different reasons. I think that not only moments resonating with them or shocking them, but it also makes us dig in as professionals and go, you know, did I withhold purchasing a book because I was afraid, like, or was I judgmental of this LGBTQ person in my life? And so I think that there's other things that are resonating in the library and community. And then, you know, I think there's a lot of trauma that people are processing. Librarians are processing while they watch it as well.
- [32:58]
Vanessa Diaz
Kim.
- [33:00]
Kim Snyder
I was going to say one of the greatest gifts that just keeps giving. And I think both Carolyn and Martha have experienced this is there was an instinct I had about the story, but I had no idea of knowing what a nerve this would hit and how many theaters throughout. And it's been over 200 art house cinemas and libraries and campuses. And now we're going to be on, you know, reaching millions of people through. Through national broadcast. But when I had done a little deeper digging into McCarthyism, you know, that the. The obvious question is what dialed that back. And one of the things was about the public feeling like things had just become. They were going after. He was going after something just too far and sacrosanct. And I did have this kind of vision and dream. What if the librarians symbolically and all of this news, of all of this assaulting news and things that are hitting us every day, what if the librarians actually became symbolically and literally, as in the film, not just the vanguard of a firewall of protecting our democracy, but what if that was the straw that broke the camel's back? If people really stopped to think. And then my job was to kind of show this crazy juxtaposition of what was, you know, what I've been told is the most trusted profession that in. In that is it's surveyed. And so right now, when I go to places and I tell you that and I. I think we made a good film, but I think it's. It's. People are standing up for integrity, for the heroism, and it's almost like they're being lauded like Covid workers, you know, the healthcare workers. When I see repeated standing ovations for these friends, it is such a joy. And when people, when you realize how shocked people are and outraged, that criminalization of our librarians is actually something on the table in the United States of America. There's so much outrage, so much appreciation for their heroism. It's the greatest achievement in my life and the greatest privilege, honestly, to have lifted that up. It makes me emotional talking about it, but that's why I can't stop traveling with it, because each time is such a reward and people get it.
- [35:35]
Vanessa Diaz
Speaking of that travel I'm jumping around with, I was originally going to ask you because you'll have such great things to say, but so originally when I was first researching the film, it was like, okay, this is going to start in the. In the fall of last year was when you were all. Were officially seeing it in a wider release here in the States. It was hitting, I think, 40 cities initially. And obviously there's. And I will link this, by the way, in the show notes for the show that there's a whole calendar of places you can still go see this film at a place near you. It is, of course, not going to be available pbs, but it sounds like a. There's a huge demand for it in the heartland, which was really. I don't know what the word is here, but inspiring, I suppose. And also that the demand for this film is now much more global, which is a little bit disheartening in the sense that. What's the quote I heard you use in Westport? That, like, if they sneeze. If we sneeze, like, the UK will catch a cold. So it sounds like, you know, folks in other parts of the world are now also starting to kind of go up, but we're heading in this direction. But it is heartening to hear that the demand for this has gotten very global and that people are paying attention. Is that still very much the case now?
- [36:31]
Kim Snyder
Yes. And Martha and I had an experience. I'll let Martha tell you, but it spawned what I like to call in our input, we have a robust in camp. Camp impact campaign underway. But I like to think of it as librarians without border. But I'll let you. Borders, but. But I'll just start the story where the day after our librarian of Congress, Dr. Hayden, was fired, we received an email here in this office from the German National Library saying, we saw what happened yesterday, and there are hundreds of German librarians standing in solidarity with your librarians. Please come to Berlin and I'll let Martha finish.
- [37:09]
Martha Hickson
And so in November, we accepted that invitation and Kim and I traveled to Berlin, where we screened the documentary for a theater full of German librarians. Prior to the screening, we met a number of them at the memorial to the 1933 book banning, footage of which is. Or book burning. Excuse me, footage of which is in our film. And that memorial is called the Empty Library. And it is at that very location where those books were burned in 1933. So that was quite a somber and sobering moment. Never did I think I would be there. But after the screening, we had a little meet and greet and reception afterwards. And that was pretty incredible because, you know, you think of Germany, you think of those German librarians well aware and haunted by their own history there, and they were terrified. But what they saw happening today in.
- [38:08]
Kim Snyder
The United States, and that's been echoed in Switzerland. We've shown it in 13 countries. It's played on the BBC. We met behind closed doors. We were privileged to screen it at the Bodleian Library at Oxford and learned from sadly, there and in Canada and. And heard from afar, we didn't make it there in Melbourne, that this is, in fact, being exported in a very concerted, organized way. And so they are experiencing it. It is definitely just a spread of something very insidious that it does not. Is not contained within our borders.
- [38:48]
Vanessa Diaz
Yeah, yeah. When the Germany calls you to say, oh, I suppose everybody's backwards, go up. But what a beautiful moment, though, that you got to. To be there and that they were standing in solidarity, invited you all to be there. That's wonderful. I think that made me think about, well, one, I again want to applaud Kim on the film just because it does what I was hoping it would do, which is in addition to just appealing to everybody's hopefully, sensibilities of like, hey, this is wrong on a fundamental level, and these librarians are going through things that they never would have imagined when they entered this profession is like, okay, if you're a person who just needs to, like, see this in a very black and white way, if it was ever about money for you, well, guess what, it's not. Because over $135,000 were spent, I think, in Texas alone and like, like complying with the book ban request. And if it's about safety, well, no, it's not, because, you know, many examples. Go watch the film. One that really stuck with me is Courtney Gore's story, which I find infuriating on every level and for listeners, again, go watch the film. But Courtney Gore is a woman who ran for the Granberry, Texas school board on a far right education platform. And then in the film is very much has taken the position of like, oops, to, you know, put it overly succinctly, but admits on camera, which I would love to Kim, to weigh in a little bit about that decision, but to basically say, like, hey, after I was already on the board, I decided to look into this and realized, oh, no, this stuff actually isn't in curriculums and it's not in schools. And then has reversed. And the reason I wanted to bring that up and to get y' all's take on it is as it relates to this particular political moment we are now seeing, especially in the reactions to the shootings of, you know, three folks recently on behalf of ice, that folks are, quote, unquote, finally waking up and saying, okay, this is, you know, one step too far. And that is obviously a complicated conversation because people of color have known that for quite some time. But this conversation of what do you do with folks who just. Who finally do wake up one day after years of you ringing the bell, of there's a lot of things that we should all be terrified about and that are now finally having that moment where they're recognizing that they've changed their minds, that what they thought before was wrong for y' all as librarians and seeing. And again, I want to get Kim's perspective too. But what is that like for you to. Are you, are you seeing that folks are opening their eyes in a way? How do you approach that conversation? And I imagine, as you know, the guardians of intellectual freedom, you probably have a much more open minded approach to that than I. And not that I do, I do believe that we should welcome those folks in, but this has to just be difficult after everything y' all have been experience to see it happen. But it's also what we want to happen. So especially in Courtney Gore's case, that got me to thinking a lot about it and I would just love to hear what your thoughts are on that end from Kim, like how the decision was to incorporate Courtney into the film.
- [41:32]
Martha Hickson
Sadly, I haven't encountered that many Courtneys in my world. Most of the conversations I have with folks who might be, say, Courtney adjacent are filled with lots of yeah, but, yeah, but, but what about, but what about, but what about. My approach to handling that is to listen, just as I did with the book challenge, is listen sincerely to what their concern is and, you know, just try to approach them with facts. I don't know, I don't think I've made any converts yet, but I think I've left some people thinking more about the issue. And I think, you know, maybe that's all I can ask for at this point, is that they're still thinking about it, which might indicate that they haven't closed their mind entirely.
- [42:21]
Carolyn Foote
I think being in Texas, what I found is that, you know, I think people in on the book banning side, forget that in Texas, just statistically, you know, a significant portion of librarians were conservative voters that, you know, are in conservative communities, but that supported the freedom to read because it's, it's, you know, a democratic value, little D, you know, it's part of our democratic values. So I'm starting to find in my own circles that a lot of colleagues that I had that, you know, had voted conservatively previously are now feeling sort of, I'm without a home. So they've come more to a place where they're unsure and uncomfortable with some of the things going on and they're sitting in that sort of Limbo. But they're being open enough about it that they're, you know, telling me I am without a home. And then I've seen some of them really become engaged. So I think it is for some, a slow process as sort of their personal values, their beliefs in democracy, again, little D, are bumping up against the reality of what they're seeing happen. And I certainly think our film and the. The sort of, you know, a lot of these attacks on school libraries are really part of an attack on public schooling, particularly in Texas and Florida. You find that. So I. I definitely think that people that are supportive of public schooling, see, starting to understand this is a piece of that attack also that impacts them. And I've talked about this in other interviews. But I also think one of the things the film does is it opens up a vulnerable spot and people that care about teens. And that is both Weston's story and then his mom and seeing people get really uncomfortable about, you know, her interactions. And then also the scene where Amanda Jones is speaking at the library board meeting about the book, queerfully and wonderfully made. And that individual, they can't finish their testimony about the book. And that moment is so raw and vulnerable, and I think it makes people feel really uncomfortable and that a voice is being silenced. And so I think that Kim got so much amazing footage. It's just incredible looking back at. At the. The footage you were able to get, Kim. But I think those moments of vulnerability also open people up to taking it in in a different way, aside from the attacks on librarians or books.
- [45:37]
Kim Snyder
And I guess I would add to that, in terms of the Courtney story, I would. I would maybe beg to differ that, Martha, even if it's not in person, I do think through the screen, you've probably converted a few from the evidence we've gotten. You know, people like our colleague Julie Miller, she's the daughter of a Baptist minister. Amanda traveled with me to the UK and, you know, went on mainstream news and saying, look, I was brought up in a town where I was staunchly Republican and a Christian and still am on some levels. And she would say all of the values I was brought up to live by, Christian values of love thy neighbor, Republican values of First Amendment is paramount. Those were the things she stood up for, she said, and those were the very things I've been attacked for. And I think there are a lot of people that can relate to that. And we're getting evidence of that through our screenings. I was going to say Julie, you know, shared a story of a School friend from, from childhood who was both of those things and wrote and said, you know, this, you know, she said this really made me think about this differently as a Christian. I think it's challenging people of faith, Republicans alike, to really question the values that are being espoused by the more extremist point of view. And are these good Christian or Republican values? And I think we're seeing that, you know, possibly in this recent race in Texas. There's a large majority of people who just are not down with tearing down public education and starting to wake up to what this is really about, that it's not about litigating a couple of books or that is what is the guise that is the Trojan horse, if you will. So I feel all those things. And I think the other thing is I really appreciate it. Courtney's courage in her turn in being public about her term, but also her honesty in saying, I also felt that I was being attacked and my safety, you know, wasn't. Was better assured by speaking out about this. So she's saying, you know, when we do speak out and, and call out bullies, we can, we can prevail in some ways and we can protect our own selves. And lastly, I'll say that I think there's a lot of promise in the fact that one of the things that happened in our travels is that we would have never imposed going to Granbury itself with the film, but we learned that Monica was running for the school board there in this last electoral cycle. And it was Courtney and Adrian who are Republican Democrat, working across the Aisle so to Speak week to prevent this kind of extremism from taking hold. They said, you need to come here and you need to come here. And it was two days before the school board election. And we have had this happen elsewhere in Texas. And you know, in, in many cases that we believe we can, we can prove that in taking the film there, there were a lot of Courtney Gores or a lot of people and those seats, in fact, Monica did not prevail in taking that seat seat. And we saw that in several of the school board elections in Texas that three seats after we screened with sold out screenings were not that. That the pro book people prevailed. So I, I'm hopeful that there are many, many Courtney Gores out there. I believe there are. I believe, yeah, there's, there's evidence and I hope they can see the, the film and understand that there is no there. There's a. And it certainly helps when Martha, toward the end of the movie, Clarifies there is no pornography in the school libraries. This is the big lie.
- [49:38]
Vanessa Diaz
It is indeed the big lie. And that brings me to a thing I've been wanting to ask this whole time, which is of course the crux of so much of the film is like, hey, the people that this harps ultimately are the kids, right? Like that is, if nothing else, if you take nothing away, like ultimately all of this, like bringing political war into the libraries and schools, it's harms children. But I did definitely walk away from the film with a little bit of that the kids are all right sense just from seeing how many kids were among themselves even, right, having their little banned book clubs and how clear it was to them that which the folks who have been trying to push these terrible policies either don't understand, don't want to understand, or do. And it's the point, which is that it's all about silencing marginalized voices. It's about control. It's not about, quote, unquote, safety. So I would love to just know what the student reaction has been, especially for, you know, Martha and Carolyn, that are still in libraries, what you've heard from your students and yeah, how you feel about the way, how they're doing these days.
- [50:34]
Martha Hickson
My students were my library students, I should say not students at large because the library population is a special group in high school. They were outraged and as you see in the film, many of them came to speak at board meetings month after month after month. And I'm always amazed that teenagers gave up free time, study time, video game time, napping time, whatever, to come to the most boring thing on earth, which is a school board meeting, and then do one of the most terrifying things for most human beings, which is public speaking. And they were just remarkable in their ability to do it. Unlike the adults in the room, they followed all the rules. They were models for public discourse. And my kids who are in the film are all off to college now. They've graduated from high school. And I just have to spotlight one in particular, Mitchell dacosta. You'll see him in the film. He's wearing a rainbow colored hoodie and he alludes to a really hideous email that was sent to me and Mitchell. I think that footage was shot when Mitchell was a junior. Maybe he's now a freshman in college, but he was, was on board with me September 28, 2021. Mitchell walked into my office on September 29th. He was a wee little pipsqueak freshman at that time. And I just saw him two weeks ago when he was inducted into the Martin Luther King Spirit hall of Fame in Media, Pennsylvania for his work in the passage of the New Jersey Freedom to Read Act. And he's now about as tall as I am. And, and you know, he's no longer a wee little freshman. And man, if I could tell you, his speech that day blew the doors off. Mitchell DaCosta is headed for great things. Remember that name.
- [52:20]
Vanessa Diaz
Oh, that's lovely. Thanks for sharing.
- [52:24]
Carolyn Foote
That's amazing. And you know, I have a similar story with Cameron Samuels in Texas, who is actually not my student, but he saw a clip of us on the news in 2021 and emailed us and said, I'm in Katy, Texas, and I want to do something. Can I do a banned book giveaway in my school district? You know, can you help me? And now, you know, Subsequently, he ended up launching a statewide organization called SEAT Students Engaged in Advancing Texas. He's been at the White House previous White House numerous times. He's spoken to Congress as well as some of his mates. I helped them with an advocacy event for students at the Capitol last fall spring, and they had 300 students there learning about how to talk to legislators. So I do think I. It's so unfortunate that our students are having to speak up for social justice so much. But also I'm continually inspired by. By them. And I tell people all the time lately in Texas because our governor has been trying the last couple of days to crack down on student protests here that by their nature, adolescents care about justice.
- [53:52]
Vanessa Diaz
Yeah.
- [53:52]
Carolyn Foote
And fairness. And you cannot stomp that out of them. Having worked for teens for 30 years, that is like an innate neat trait. And so they are going to find their ways to speak up. And I value that so much because their voices are important. These books are for them and their siblings in younger grades. And I think that we need to hear them.
- [54:20]
Kim Snyder
Yeah.
- [54:20]
Vanessa Diaz
I mean, I don't have children myself, but I've been surrounded by them all my life and I was one. And it's like, what's the easiest way to get a teen to not do it?
- [54:26]
Carolyn Foote
Thing.
- [54:27]
Vanessa Diaz
Tell them they can't. But. Which is a, you know, very basic distillation. But so I, I have taken up so much of your time today. I just again, want to thank you all so much for participating today. Are there any departing thoughts? Mine, of course, is just to like, hey, if you have now listened to this podcast, please tell people to go watch this. But is there anything else that you would like to. To impart to our audience before you go?
- [54:48]
Kim Snyder
Just that we're not done. Yes, we're continuing to use the film in whatever ways we can and I think, think, you know, to support and grow the, not only the, the librarian community in this struggle, but also in, in really, in really imploring people to get involved in a, in, in a hyperlocal way in their own communities. Because I think it's an issue you can have agency over by way of voting in your school boards, your library boards, maybe running for them, and even just in the small act of getting to know your library into reaching out and make sure they're not isolated in this to be preemptive. Because I think censorship is something that we can have some agency over. Town to town. Community. Community.
- [55:36]
Martha Hickson
Yeah.
- [55:37]
Vanessa Diaz
And that impacts all of us. Right.
- [55:38]
Carolyn Foote
And I wanted to mention as part of that, on the PBS website for the librarians, if you scroll to the bottom, there's a link to an engagement guide. So if people want to have, have a local viewing or viewing with friends, there's discussion questions and reflection questions and things that people can use to like, engage more deeply in thinking about the film, which we would love.
- [56:02]
Vanessa Diaz
Yeah.
- [56:02]
Kim Snyder
And, and our website, the librariansfilm.com is going to have some added fun things that we think you could do around watch parties and, and some, some levity too, like band book, band trivia, and all kinds of. All kinds of things. Martha has a great new idea. We've, we've encountered librarians who've come to see the film now three and four times. She has an idea of a, of a Rocky Horror kind of a, kind of a situation where there were prompts. And yes, we, we, we have a lot of fun talking about what those things might be.
- [56:35]
Vanessa Diaz
Oh, I apologize for the witch cackle I just did into that microphone. Continue.
- [56:39]
Martha Hickson
And to that point, I do encourage people when and where possible to watch the film in community, whether that meets with two or three members of your. Or you attend a larger screening. It really is a very profound experience to watch it with other people. And as you witness yourself, to hear the gasps, and not just gasps, there are laughs in that movie.
- [57:01]
Vanessa Diaz
Yes, there are.
- [57:03]
Martha Hickson
So there are gasps, there are laughs. And that's always much more fun with other people around.
- [57:07]
Vanessa Diaz
Oh, that is wonderful, wonderful insight. Well, thank you so much again for joining us today. Please make sure you go watch librarians and as Martha said, maybe do in community. Thank you for listening.
- [57:16]
Kim Snyder
Thank you so much.
- [57:17]
Carolyn Foote
Thank you.
- [57:18]
Vanessa Diaz
And that was our interview. Thank you so much to this week's sponsors. Thank you to our guests for joining me. Today and thank you to Caitlin Braim for editing today's episode. The Book Riot Podcast is a proud member of the Arab Wave Podcast Network. You can find all of the links for the film in the show notes, both where to potentially watch it at a theater near you and reminder that it is going to be streaming on PBS as of Monday, February 9th. You can find show notes for today's episode@bookriot.com listen or just check your podcast player. Make sure to look for zero to well read wherever you listen to podcasts. If you are wanting to look for our Patreon, you can join that patreon@patreon.com bookriotpodcast that will do it for me. Catch you next time.
- [58:05]
Brittany from Family Road Trip Trivia Podcast
Calling all trivia nerds Nerds Brittany here and I host the Family Road Trip Trivia Podcast with my best friend Meredith. Is your next car ride looking like a snooze fest? We've got the Cure. Three rounds of awesome trivia every week. Harry Potter, Disney, Science, Sports, you name it. No more silent car troubles. The Family Road Trip Trivia Podcast. Connect, laugh and learn with your kids, big and small. New episodes every week. Wherever you get your podcasts, search for the Family Road Trip Trivia Podcast.