C (2:32)

That's actually the perfect amount for you to know because there are lots of other juicy bits that we can get into about his life and times and how everything you just said both has like a kernel of truth and maybe not to it. So I'm glad that that's like our baseline and that you're not like, I know everything you're about to say.

B (2:47)

Yeah, in a different life, I would have read the Greenblatt book already. But that's not the life I'm living right now.

C (2:52)

Literal same. I tried it at the end of the year and the audio just like wasn't working for me. Which is no shade because I'm pretty sure it's narrated by Greenblatt himself. But something about his tone, I was like, give me more Christmasy. And anyway, that's next on the list. But so yeah, let's talk a little bit about him. I'm going to take a two minute sidebar just because this is a really ridiculous way to have gotten into Christopher Marlowe. Like so many of Vanessa's stories about literary interests that got into him entirely too young and in a backwards way.

B (3:17)

Hmm.

C (3:18)

So I went to Montessori school for the. I was not reading Marlow in Montessori school, but as a, you know, background in Montessori, which, if you don't know, it's, you know, multi sensory. It's very child led and you're in a. Often in a multi age classroom. So when I went to Montessori in Kinder, I was what would have been kinder? I was reading above my grade level like pretty quickly. So I got placed with this gal who was a few years older than me for reading time and she became my nemesis within like seconds of meeting each other. I was, I mean, I was five. I was probably annoying. Let's call a spade a spade. So during one of our reading sessions several months in, she's annoyed because I think she wants to chill. And I'm over here, like, I've read three books, let's pick another one. And she grabs this illustrated biography off the shelf that's clearly above my reading level, but she's like you know, start reading this. So I try. And then she points at this picture of this, what's clearly a queen and all of her regalia, and she says, did you like the parents you ended up with? And I'm like, what? And she goes, the parents you ended up with? I said, okay. And she's like, well, you know, that's your mom. Do you know who Mary Queen of Scots was? And I'm like, what? And she proceeds to tell me that Mary Queen of Scots was my real mother, that she got her head chopped off, and that that's why I ended up with what are now my adoptive parents. And, you know, I'm five, so I don't know that this feels right, but.

B (4:31)

I've got no evidence. I know nothing. But I just got to say that feels wrong.

C (4:34)

That feels wrong.

B (4:35)

Rebecca or whoever, this Antoinette.

C (4:37)

I still know her name. It's on site.

B (4:40)

Speaking of, people got their heads cut off. No wonder she's thinking about that.

C (4:43)

So, long story short, you know, obviously I was put right by a really interesting conversation with school staff and parents, but I kept. Even though I told my parents, like, I understood, every time I would go to the library, I would try to read about Mary Queen of Scots, sort of as like a. Just to make sure. And I found out about Christopher Marlowe that way and asked the school librarian to read more about it. Shockingly, there are no early chapter books on. On Marlo. And she was like, come back when you're older. You can't read Marlo yet. And that's exactly what I did. I asked, like, five years in a row until someone, like, finally was like, come back in high school. And then that's how I got into Christian. But, like, that's literally the foundation for, like, how I first came to him, which is silly, but just a thing. I felt insane.

D (5:24)

Today's episode is brought to you by Flatiron Books, publisher of My Husband's Wife by Alice Feeney. The New York Times bestselling Queen of Twists is back with a psychological masterpiece that will leave you questioning everything you know about love, identity, and revenge. So Eden Fox is an artist on the brink of her big break, and she sets off for a run before her first exhibition. When she returns to the home she recently moved into called Spyglass, an enchanting old house in Hope Falls. Nothing is as it should be. Her key doesn't fit. A woman eerily similar to her answers the door. And on top of all of that, her husband insists that the stranger is his wife. My husband's Wife is a tangled web of deception, obsession and mystery that will keep you guessing until the last page. Prepare yourself for the ultimate mind bending marriage thriller and step inside Spyglass if you dare to experience a story where nothing is as it seems. And make sure to pick up My Husband's Wife By Alice Feeney thanks again to Flatiron Books for sponsoring this episode.

E (6:33)

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C (9:18)

So let's learn more about actual Marlo As Jeff said, he was an Elizabethan poet and playwright whose career, like just as a playwright, I find fascinating in and of itself on its own merit. His plays, which include Dr. Faustus, the Tamburlaine Plays, Edward II, were controversial and subversive like then as much as they are now. His work was kind of it's often very dark, it was often violent. It explored themes like mortality, the cost of greed, excessive ambition. He talked a lot about the tension between fate and free will. He questioned divinity a lot, which again, big deal at the time. He wrote about the devil famously and also about real people, and he really pushed the boundaries in terms of literary device, but also his thematic choices, his innovative use of language. As Jeff said, he is by many considered to have maybe at a time been kind of better than Shakespeare. He's credited with perfecting the use of blank verse, which is poetry that's written in unrhymed iambic pentameter and is considered thus Shakespeare's most important predecessor in English drama. All of that, again to me makes him worthy of our study, but there are a few pieces of lore that make him extra interesting as a subject and why some people know of him more so than his actual work. For one, there is the rumor that Jeff touched on, which is that he was actually Shakespeare, which I actually think is like the least interesting part of his story, which is saying something like.

B (10:40)

Me, we don't care about the Shakespeare. I mean, whatever. I can't get too excited.

C (10:46)

Me neither. And we'll touch a little bit on like how that rumor came to be later. But that's not the focus really. What we're gonna talk about today, the part that I like to focus on just because it's interesting and probably not a rumor is a. The circumstances around his death are kind of suspicious. Like, were they a bar fight, were they not, and related. It is pretty well accepted at this point that he was very likely a spy for the Crown and the like. Evidence that there is and isn't for that I find really interesting and fun to think about considering the times that he lived in and why that would have been a really big deal. So let's go back to his early life just really fast. He was born in Canterbury in 1584. The exact date isn't known, but it's thought to have been within months of old Billy Shayk. So that kind of doesn't help the allegations of people thinking that, no, he was. He might have been Shakespeare. He's the son of a shoemaker and the daughter of a clergyman. And he's like the second of nine kids. He's a really bright student. So he goes to King's School in Canterbury as a kid where he was awarded a scholarship. And then he earns another scholarship to go to Corpus Christi College at Cambridge, where the original plan was he was going to be a clergyman. Obviously he didn't go down that route. He pretty quickly showed this really impressive aptitude for language and literature. So he ends up earning his Bachelor of Arts of Cambridge in 1584. And this is when things start to get kind of interesting. So he stayed on as a resident at Cambridge and was working on a Master's when, and this is documented, he started to disappear for big chunks of time with no great explanation. When pressed as to, like, where he was and why and Cambridge wasn't having it. Do you have any guesses as to where he was, why that was a problem? Any. Any rumors that have made their way into your consciousness?

B (12:26)

I don't. It tickles something, but I can't remember. I honestly can't remember.

C (12:31)

No. Great. So on at least one of these unexplained absences, Marlow was sent, we think, or went at least to the Catholic seminary at a place called Reims in France.

B (12:41)

I was gonna say I had France. I was like, was it France? But that could have just been because England, France stuff.

C (12:46)

That's. I was gonna say, at any given time, you could probably just say England, France, and then like the words Catholic or Protestant. And you're probably right. But. So this place is again, a Catholic seminary. And they did admit non Catholics there, probably to convert them. But what we do know is that the rumor that followed him is that he had gone to Reams because he was drinking the Catholic Kool Aid, which I guess is communion wise. Anyway, so in 1587, the university was on the cusp of denying Marlow his Master of Arts because he's been disappearing so often, they're like, all right, you know, if you, I don't know, effest around, thou wilt find out kind of thing.

B (13:20)

Gotta show up to class sometimes, Chris, just like, make an appearance, will you just, you know, turn it in and show up a little bit. We're not asking that much.

C (13:28)

And, like, if we ask you about it, have the, you know, wherewithal to.

B (13:31)

Like, make something up. Right, exactly.

C (13:33)

You know, but he doesn't. And then in a totally normal, totally believable, not at all suspicious thing happens, and that's Queen Elizabeth's Privy Council shows up and they intervene and they recommend, strongly recommend that he receive the decree. And I'm gonna read a quick little passage that exists. So whereas it was reported that Christopher Marlowe was determined to have gone beyond the seas to Reims and there to remain, their lordships thought good to certify that he had no such intent, but that in all his actions he had behaved himself orderly and discreetly, whereby he had done Her Majesty good service. And there's a whole bunch of other stuff, but so what? What is that good service that he completed? There are a couple of possible explanations for his actual absence. He wasn't apparently the only student to take off time. Sometimes it was, you know, people just leave for family reasons, et cetera. But most of them will explain those reasons if that's what the case is. It's also possible that he might have taken off because there was a documented outbreak of plague in Cambridge at one point in this time period. But again, feels like, well, that would have been easily explained and probably wouldn't have been prevented to the degree if that had been the case. Well, we also know also, you don't.

B (14:36)

Need the Queen to write you a note for the plague. Don't need a Queen's note for the plague.

C (14:40)

I was like, so usually when that happens, the Queen doesn't have to be like, hey, so please give him the thing. He was maybe doing stuff for us. So what is more likely accepted is that again, he was doing spy work. He was probably recruited by Elizabeth I's head spymaster in charge, who is a name that people who are dorks like me and love this period will know. It's Francis Walsingham. He worked for Queen Lizzie and was a statesman and a diplomat and really a Legend for his intelligence work. Like he successfully thwarted many a plot to unseat and unalive Elizabeth and restore a Catholic monarch in her place, which was kind of the buzz. What everybody kept trying to do there was the huge tension between Protestants and Catholics at this time. So Walsingham became famous through the use of the kinds of tactics that we probably think of as old hat, or maybe not old hat so much as standard in this sort of espionage, double agents, propaganda, you know, very like well placed disinformation, code breaking, that sort of thing. And it's thought that he probably recruited Marlowe because Marlowe looked really good on paper for this sort of thing.

B (15:40)

I was gonna ask why? Why, why him?

C (15:43)

Yeah, so he was on top of just being really smart and ambitious and showing that he had the capacity to A, like lie on the spot, B, make up really good, good things with words. He was also raised in a really Catholic town in Canterbury. So it kind of made it plausible that he would convert to the cause specifically for the purposes of getting in good with that Papist Mary Stewart, AKA my mom. And like why would he need to do that? The reason is thought to be something called the Babington plot. Does that at all sound familiar?

B (16:15)

No, nothing. I got absolute zero on the Babington plot.

C (16:18)

I love that this is all happening and I don't. I get to tell you things. So the Babington plot is probably the most famous one to get rid of Elizabeth I. It was a conspiracy to assassinate her and very specifically install Mary Queen of Scots on her throne in 1586. I believe at this point Mary Queen of Scots had already been like sequestered and like put sent to live in. I can't remember the castle. But anyway, it's basically some letters were discovered that were probably a code for like, yeah, let's, let's get this done. It's officially happening. And it's that, that trip to reams that we talked about where you know, the Queen showed up and like wrote the letter, etc. Her privy council that pretty well aligns with the time that the Babington plot went down, like when it was uncovered. So like that absence, plus this is for a lot of folks, kind of like a pretty clear connection. There are again alternate theories about this absence. But the funny thing is all those theories are not like, no, no, no, he wasn't a spy. They're more like he was a spy but doing different spy things. That it might not have been the Babington plot, that maybe he did go to Reams, but to do the thing that he was accused of, which was to snitch on people who went there with these Catholic sympathies that were trying to join Elizabeth's enemies and plotting against her. So, like, most of the theories I've seen are very much like, no, yeah, he was spying, but, like, we're just not all in agreement on what kind of spy work he might have been doing at the time. And the thing about spy work, as I have said a couple times when I've written about this on the site, so we're never obviously going to know for sure because, like, that's how good spying works. Like, if you're doing it right, you're not supposed to know that you've done it. Little is known about what might have come next. So, like, there's a lot of folks who will agree that, yes, he did go on to, like, spy for Mary Queen of Scots, but once that job was done, because that Babington plot is the thing that sealed Mary Queen of Scots f. It's the thing that led to her beheading. So, like, after that, did he continue to work for the Crown? Did he not? Historical records of which there are both way more than I would have assumed. And also, of course, not enough to, like, make the case strongly one way or the other.

B (18:14)

Not a smoking gun, but, like, just sort of a warm gun that's been left in the sunshine for a little while. Like, it's sitting there, it's warm, but, like, you know, recently.

C (18:22)

Yeah, well, so it's very juicy. And I love to, like, think about what does and doesn't exist, because even in our own. I mean, nowadays we have, you know, the Bourne fantasies that there are just this piles of documents that someone's going to find that, like, you know, let everybody know of all the bad dealings.

B (18:35)

But here are all the spies, right? Yeah.

C (18:37)

Here's where you can find them and how long they worked in our employ. We do know that, like, upon graduation from Cambridge, that Marlow began working as a playwright with someone named Thomas Walsingham, who's actually the nephew of that Sir Francis Walsingham guy.

B (18:50)

Interesting.

C (18:51)

Okay, so there are some theories that he was doing that and then supplementing his income by continuing to spy on dissenters for the Crown. But here's where I want to talk a little bit about his work, because, again, I think his work is just as fascinating as, like, his story. Like, his career was really short, but pretty dazzling in what he was able to kind of accomplish in that time. You've established that this isn't somebody you spent a lot of time with or like teaching. But a portion of his career that is dedicated to his playwriting really kicks off in the late 1580s. It begins with Tamburlaine, which he actually wrote back when he was still at Cambridge.

B (19:22)

Tamburlaine, I mean, often thought one of the great parts, Tamburlaine in British theatre.

C (19:28)

Exactly as I say. So, yeah, that part itself is loose. The play itself is basically loosely based on the life of a Central Asian emperor named Timur. I think Timur tracks his rise from a shepherd to sort of a world conquering emperor as he ascends to the Persian throne. Really exploring those themes of unlimited ambition, power, desire, violence, which is interesting to think about when you think he might have been a spy for the crown. The timing of the rest of his plays isn't 100% clear, but there are so few of them that we can kind of easily break them down. There's the Jew of Malta, which is about a. A vengeful Jewish merchant that I haven't read in a long time. And I have no idea how well it does or doesn't stand up as far as stereotypes go.

B (20:09)

But I would proceed with caution. Yeah, I would proceed with caution.

C (20:13)

Correct. Especially with. Based on what it's about. It's a lot about moral ambiguity. It explores religious tension. Dr. Faustus is probably one of, you know, his most famous works. It's about a scholar who sells his soul to the devil for unlimited knowledge and power. And, you know, guess how well that goes. It's where we get the Faustian bargain. There's Dido, Queen of Carthage, which is about Dido, Queen of Carthage and her fanatical love affair with Aeneas. There's the Massacre of Paris, which is a historical drama about the St. Bartholomew's Day massacre of the Huguenots in France, and talks about the machinations of the Guise family, which sidebar we don't talk enough about. Like, normally when people think of families and political imaginations.

B (20:51)

No, we don't talk about the Gies.

C (20:52)

The Borges, but the guy, they were ruthless.

B (20:54)

It's so funny to hear you go through because some of these, I don't know, I think I've only ever read Tamerlane and it's really a long time. But if you look at them, they feel like the plots and the, the descriptions are like Bizarro Shakespeare. Like they all feel very similar. Like you could easily see a Shakespeare that's Tamerlane or Dial Kud of Carthage or The Jew of Malta is sort of, you know, it's just an inversion of, of, of some of the other stuff that we see. So it helps people, I think remember especially maybe more like me, where you think of Shakespeare, don't know too much about the rest or if you did, you've forgotten it all. Much more like me.

C (21:31)

Yeah.

B (21:31)

It actually put Shakespeare in much more context to see that there's like a version of him walking around doing not dissimilar things like they're not in, they're not difference in order of magnitude. It's degree not kind. Right.

C (21:43)

Yeah. And the one that for me really nails that is his again. I guess it's a toss up between which is the most famous between Dr. Faustus and this one. But Edward II is another one of those.

B (21:53)

Yes, that definitely could see, right? Yeah, like that.

C (21:56)

And yeah, very Shakespeare, at least to me in that he obviously wrote about a real monarch. There's obviously all of the monarch based plays in Shakespeare's canon, but this one is about a pretty unpopular English ruler who's. The play itself focuses on him bringing back an exiled favorite named Pierce Gaveston, who if you know, you know, he could be a subject of an entire hour long conversation. But the play's depiction of that, what is rumored to have been a same sex relationship between Edward II and Gaveston was considered the smoking gun or like proof of Marlowe's own homosexuality, which is a rumor, an accusation that followed him for most of his life and that may have landed him in hot water because this would have been a big and bad deal at the time, in spite of the fact that obviously it was happening left and right. Those rumors also weren't helped by the fact that homosexuality was a recurring theme in his work, like in the poem Hero and Leander, which is another one of his works. So this is where we kind of come to the circumstances of his death, which we again don't know for sure what he was up to. But here's what we do know that scholars disagree as to like how much hot water he was in leading up to it. But we know he was in some kind of hot water. He was arrested several times throughout his life, but definitely in these like lead up years he had this reputation for being kind of a hothead, that he was argumentative. He was arrested in flushing, Holland in 1592 for creating counterfeit coin. But he managed to avoid hanging even though he was supposed to hang. And this is another one of those, like, well, how did he get out of it? No record survives as to who may have intervened on his behalf, but it seems like someone does because you don't just typically show up for a hanging, for someone to say, like jk. So that at this point we know that he may have joined something called the School of Night, which I imagine you're a teeny bit familiar with, maybe. Yeah, so, yeah, so it's thought that he may have been in this group of, you know, free thinking intellectuals that was led by Raleigh, Sir Walter Raleigh and Henry Percy. Big deal. Because they've been branded atheists, which is them fighting words.

B (23:50)

Yeah, that's in England.

C (23:51)

Yeah.

B (23:52)

Protestant is tough, Catholic is tough, but atheist is real bad at the time.

C (23:56)

Yeah, real bad. And this was all during, like in 1593, which is when this is happening, is when Elizabeth's campaign against heresy is like, in full swing. 1593 is the year that Marlow dies. We know that about 10 days prior to the murder, he was placed under arrest and ordered to report on a daily basis to the Privy Court in London. And then six days after that, a spy that he had worked with and had kind of an uneasy relationship with, named Richard Baines is arrested and he hands in a document to the English authority authorities that accuses Marlow of this whole list of stuff, of all the bad things, sedition, heresy, sodomy, atheism, like all the things that are gonna get you knocked off if that stuff gets into the wrong hands. So no matter the reason, we know that he did ultimately die on the 30th of May the most. There's kind of two versions of the story. The one that you kind of mentioned, Jeff, is that this was basically a bar fight over a bill, that they were at this tavern, it's him and three other men, A fight breaks out over the bill, someone gets a knife, a kerfuffle, you know, ensues. And it unfortunately ends with Marlow taking that knife to, like the orbital bone. So like the eye skull area, which tends to do you in.

B (25:06)

Yes.

C (25:07)

In other accounts, the venue was not a tavern so much as this room in this respectable house that had been specifically reserved for the purposes of this meeting. The participants of which, and I don't have their names written down, but they're people you can look up, but are folks that have like established espionage flavored ties to the Crown and or Walsingham. So that version of events makes Marlow's death sound less like a brawl gone wrong and more of a coordinated effort at silencing him for good. For pick a reason again, I gave Plenty. He's definitely not helping things because he's making a lot of those accusations, or at least the thoughts of them pretty explicit in his work at this time. So that's kind of not helping.

B (25:47)

He's living his grievances out loud at the point.

C (25:49)

Out loud in a theater for all to see. Oh, God. There is another account which is the little bit we're going to talk about the like, was he Shakespeare? And this is such a brief detour, because there is. There are still people who think to this day that what really happened. And some of this was popularized through a book that was published in 55 by a man named Calvin Hoffman called the Murder of the man who Was Shakespeare. Putting it right out there in the title. He claims that Thomas Walsingham. So again, the nephew of the spymaster was actually Marlow's friend and. Or lover, I think, something. And that he arranged that whole. It's called the Deptford Incident. So basically that, like, is it a brawl? Is it a. But for that meetup to happen as a ruse to fake Marlow's death? Because his theory is that Marlow was then spirited out of the country to avoid the threat of something called the Star Chamber.

B (26:39)

Yeah.

C (26:39)

Which is basically like the English answer to the Inquisition. Right.

B (26:44)

And it goes, Star Chamber. That's a nasty. I would fake my own death before getting messed up in that vanilla.

C (26:50)

Indeed. I mean, that thing has, like, medieval roots. Like, famously, if you are, like, wondering, like, have I heard that before, like, Cardinal Woolsey was the head of this during, like, Henry VIII's reign. And, like, you know, go watch the Tudors for semi. Very inaccurate, but still. Anyway, it's got a reputation and, like, yeah, you would probably do anything you could to escape it, too, for all the reasons I've just given that he's on people's bad lists. And so essentially what the theory became is that he not only escaped and was spirited away from this, but that he continued to write and then would pass those scripts to Walsingham, who in turn would copy them in his own hand and then would go to the city and deliver them to a different person who we now know as the Bard.

B (27:30)

Occam's razor is just quivering over here. It's just shaking. It's just. It's just vibrating off of its. Its scabbard that I keep.

C (27:40)

So, like, is it fun to speculate about, I'm sure. But again, this has largely been discredited. And then there are people who will tell you that it hasn't. But I at this point, again, I don't even find it, like, super interesting as a concept.

B (27:51)

Right.

C (27:51)

I think there, yes, there's enough overlap in their work, but they were, again, contemporaries in, like, the truest sense of that word. And it makes sense to me that, like, of course, this is the kind of rumor they would circulate, but it's not actually the case. So, again, we don't really know the reasons why it happened. We just know that he did die. And so this is. There's that, again, long list at this point that people assume. And it does. Again, I've read so much of this over the years, and there is just kind of this conclusion that, like, yeah, he probably was working for the ground, but we don't know why, how long, when it stopped, when it started. And did it get him killed? Or is it just because he was a hothead with a reputation for sleeping with men who also maybe didn't believe in God? And, like, either of those could be true. Right.

B (28:29)

And sometimes you just die in a bar fight, you know?

C (28:31)

Yeah.

B (28:32)

Sometimes you squabble over a bill.

C (28:33)

That's. That's sometimes all that happens.

B (28:36)

So what do you like him for? Which of those do you like yourself? You know, I'm not asking you to. To. To say what's true, but if you have a suspicion, Vanessa, do you think it's a bar fight? Do you think it's political? Do you think it's a little. I don't know, do you think it's to hide the spycraft stuff? Do you think it's to get at him for living his life in a certain way? Do you have a sense of it yourself? A suspicion, an inkling?

C (28:57)

Yeah. And honestly, it kind of sounds like all of the above is where I always land, which feels like a cheater's answer, but also just feels like it could be true. Like, at many turns in his life, whether it was because of this spy work and. Or other, he was just pissing people off left and right. You know, he had. Let's say, he didn't do the spy work, but he's still saying a bunch of things about the crown. And it sounds like, if nothing else, he was in the orbit of some very powerful people, whether or not he was actually in their employ or he was just sort of. Of kind of on their. Yeah, on the outskirts of that impact, he had plenty against him. And he was starting to write very deliberately about the monarchs in a way that made people uncomfortable. And then there's the sodomy. So, like, it kind of Sounds like it could be all the above. I do think there is something to the potential like spycraft thing of it, but that might also be because I just really want to believe that that's true, I guess.

B (29:43)

Why at that point, for the spycraft stuff, since it seems like it may have been over, I guess a French. I mean, who. Maybe there was a French spy guy that quarreled with him over a beer tab on. I mean, you know, you can do this all day if you want to do it all day.

C (29:53)

Yeah. Which is why to me, like, when I say all the above, it feels like at this point it could have just been like, well, it's just easy to get rid of him at this point because we're all here. And like, it's not. Again, it sounds like he was argumentative. Like, this isn't. This was the only incidence we ever had of him kind of stirring up some stuff. I think there maybe would be a stronger case. Like, no, this was specifically. He was lured here for this reason, but he wasn't. He was. He'd been arrested several times. He liked to start a fight and it. I could, I could just as easily believe that, like, yeah, a bunch of people were annoyed with him and like, that's. He just pissed off one too many people and was like, buddy, you're getting one to the dome. Like, that's.

B (30:24)

Yeah, that's it.

C (30:24)

That's it.

B (30:25)

We can solve this with the. It's so. It's so interesting too because, you know, a lot of people, the origin of like all the anti Stratfordian stuff is how little of a record there is for Shakespeare. And some of that just because he led a quiet life, like he wasn't overtly political. Like he retires and goes back and lives in Stratford on Avon. Like, he's not getting involved in the grand issues of the day. Certainly he doesn't. There's no occasion for him. Him to go spy. He doesn't need a note from the Queen. Like, lives seemingly a quiet life and there's just not a lot to hold on to there.

C (30:54)

Ever since I was little, I've been a person who, you know, probably from watching like Jurassic park that was. And then just being obsessed with Egyptology. I've always been obsessed with looking at my own life and wondering, like, what would people think about me if they just found the record of my life as I've lived it? And. Right. And that's. Yes. In the era where like we have social media and so they're, you know, our lives are maybe more Public facing than they might have been once upon a time time. But even that, like, I know what my life looks like behind that. Not I'm sounding super cryptic, I don't mean it that way, but like, I know plenty about my life that if you were trying to put that together based on, you know, my iPhone that you found in my apartment and like my Instagram post is like not going to fully flesh out my story. So I've always found it fascinating that like, yeah, what if those, you know, what if he was just out with a lover? Like, what if that's what he was going off for the weekend? He was just like, listen, I've already got, I'm writing these plays, they're starting to get some attention. I've already got my bachelor's. Like, maybe I just didn't want to come home for the weekend. Ew, plague. I don't want that. Like. And somehow I now end up gotten.

B (31:51)

A fistfight with some meatheads who saw something that they weren't supposed to see.

C (31:56)

Yeah, exactly. So you could just as easily convince me that it was none of the above and that this is just a really good story that we like to tell.

B (32:03)

But yeah, I've got two follow on factoids for people out there. Vanessa probably already knows these, but two things struck me while we're talking there that are sort of related. One is I was just reading recently that the first female Archbishop of Canterbury is going to be sworn in like in eight days. So I'm just, I just checked the name. Her name is Sarah, Dame Sarah Mullally. She is currently the Bishop of London. For those of you who don't know, the Archbishop of Canterbury is the head of the Anglican Church, which was. Well, you can go do your own Wikipedia about how that all came to be a subject maybe for another day. Thomas the Becket and the, the King Henry and all the people involved there. So it's only been around since about 1567, so probably time that a lady gets a crack. Also, it's installed by the British monarch, right? So there's no Council of Popes or anything that does. That's just a straight up appointment. Also, and I didn't know this till a lot later than I would have thought, again, not recently, but when I was in grad school that Faust, the Faust legend is based on a real person.

D (33:04)

Person.

B (33:05)

Real person, believe it or not, who was an alchemist, sort of interesting character. There was a book, I think written shortly after his death by some people called the Sins of Faust. And then Marlow and then later Goethe take up and enshrined it as a legend and myth. But it was like 12 years later. It wasn't like something back from like, I don't know, the 9th century or something. It was like, no, it was like 12 years later, someone writes this book about Dr. Faust and they say start to exaggerate or fill in the blanks or give it some unholy, I don't know, valence to it. But I didn't realize it was like, I don't know, it's like, who's died in the last 10 years? Just someone who's died relatively recently. You know what, they actually sold their soul to the devil to get the knowledge that they described. But again, at this particular time, doing history, as you alluded to and we talked about on the Hamlet show, like, this is a time when people are like, what's the deal with science?

D (33:57)

Exactly.

C (33:58)

Yeah.

B (33:59)

What kind of understanding is this? Is this holy? Is this profane? How are we going to deal with this other kind of information that seems to be from this third place, neither from the divine nor from hell? And this is one of these. This is one of those stories that come out of it. I, I guess when I was in high school and even in college, I just assumed it was some like, I don't know, a myth, you know, like Hermes or something like that in folklore.

C (34:22)

But I feel like I found that out because. Because much like I didn't know a narwhal was a real thing until about eight years ago, which is embarrassing, but true. I think it's fair.

B (34:31)

That's the most fair one, I will grant you that.

C (34:34)

I thought 100% it would be, oh, the unicorn is. Anyway, it was at a child's reading at the bookstore. That's. That. That was a really fun revelation. But I also thought alchemy was very much. Probably just because it kept appearing in so many, you know, fantasy books that are reading that alchemy was like a total magical made up thing. And then when I realized it was a, at least at the time, you know, legitimized study was like, oh, and then kind of backwards, fell into the Faust thing. I was like, oh, you learned something new today.

B (34:58)

In hindsight, alchemy makes a lot of sense to try to investigate. Right. You don't know that you can't turn, you know, lead into gold. That would be super useful if they could figure that out.

C (35:08)

I mean, add that to the list of things that make sense when you don't know.

B (35:11)

Yeah, I may have told you before. I may have told these stories before but in college I had maybe the most fun job I'll ever had sorry Job that I have now which is also which is a close second. Second. But I worked at something called Kuinfo. The University of Kansas had an information desk that you could call into and ask any question.

C (35:28)

Oh man.

B (35:29)

It was established in the 1970s during a period of tumult on campus where people just wanted to know what was going on. There was a union fire and it was set up to sort of be an information clearinghouse to avoid rumor and sort of quelch the spread of information. But it evolved over time into a catch all I want to know something and we'll look it up for you with you. Well I was, I was as I I started my freshman year and then eventually by my junior year I was a grad assistant even though I wasn't a grad student as you might imagine. I found this delightful. And it was one of these, I don't know, internecine periods where it was really before Google like you we started to get Nikos and some other things like that. But but when I started so this would been the fall, the spring of 1996 most of that wasn't available or people were using it. And so that became my favorite kind of question was a Sin Eater question for things people knew they should knew but didn't want to ask and didn't know how to look up. So stuff like Is a narwhal real? Was very much my and I was super sympathetic because we all. We all.

C (36:30)

Yeah.

B (36:31)

I, I if you don't know what your thing is, you just haven't found it yet. Let me put it out there to you 100%. Yeah. There's a lot about, you know, words. What, what ocean is Chicago by Are squirrels, rabbits. All kinds of stuff.

C (36:46)

Oh man.

B (36:47)

Greatly there. So any of those occurs to you.

C (36:50)

And you just feel like dropping Those in my DMs, I won't be mad. I find that kind of stuff.

D (36:57)

I.

B (36:57)

Don'T know My favorite one but the one that sticks with me so often is I think it also say that there's a lot of kids from smaller towns in Kansas but also we're 18 and they're there's we're encountering ideas in people for the first time. So someone calls up and says one thing I've learned that I've used with my own children is just don't ask, don't answer any more than it's asked. Right.

C (37:17)

Yes.

B (37:18)

That's very useful, especially when you're having a conversation about topics that you and they probably don't want to talk about.

C (37:24)

Yeah.

B (37:24)

So pick up the phone. Ku Info. That's what you're supposed to say. And they're like, so Islam. And I take a deep breath. I'm like, like, yes. Is that like a city or something? And I say, no, no. That's all I say, no, no. Well, what is it then? I said, well, it's one of the world's great religions. And there's a pause and I go, oh my God, that makes so much more sense. And then hang up the phone. So I don't know what they were doing that day. I like to think about what it was they were encountering where they. There's a weight off their shoulder. Some, some cosmic tumbler clicked into place.

C (38:01)

Life the next day. Like I know something I did not know. And I have clarity I have now achieved.

B (38:07)

And I've thought about it before because I imagine you're reading, you know, in your Western civ for the first time or maybe even Eastern religious course or something like that, where you don't know that to be a Muslim is to be a practitioner of Islam and you just don't know that. Like it's not an obvious move. Right. Christian Christianity, Jews and Jewishness we all sort of know about in the Judeo Christian world in which I very much grew up.

C (38:28)

Up.

B (38:28)

But that one, they just hadn't got out the, the dictionary to look it up.

D (38:32)

That.

C (38:33)

Oh, that's great.

B (38:34)

Yeah. I mean, so there you go.

C (38:35)

Yeah. I mean this is a 2 second sidebar. But like as a kid, because again, we're raised Mexican and Catholic. When I was looking into stuff like what this whole segment was about, I remember having a moment of like, but aren't all Christians Catholics? And wow, learned that one.

B (38:49)

Yeah, yeah, that one the hard way. Because as a Methodist we knew the difference between a Lutheran and a Episcopalian and a Presbyterian.

C (38:56)

I still can only somewhat get those right.

B (38:59)

And that's kind of knowing the difference between different fraternities or something at a school. Like, yeah, they're technically different, but the Methodist, it's a distinction. It's not. And I don't think you need to worry about it. We don't all that much there. Well, thank you, Vanessa. Before we go, I'm going to do a quick front list foyer, just sort of catch up. If you got a recent read, feel free to shout it out here too. I didn't prep you for this a couple on my note, it's. It's out today is a recording. I mentioned it last week. Football by Chuck Klosterman. I thought it was great. Go check that on audio, especially if you like non fiction. New to me. I've been telling factoids to Michelle, who's born the brunt of this really, since I've been. I started. I finished it the other day, the uncool Cameron Crowe's memoir I listened to on audio, which I'd been sure I didn't know if I was going to get to it. And I kind of fell between audiobooks. It hasn't been a wonderful January for audiobooks I'm interested in, so I've had a little bit more. Is that true? Okay. It's not just me.

C (39:47)

Weird.

B (39:49)

So I picked that one up and listened to it and it was pretty terrific. He's. He breaks down crying and not narrating it like six or seven times, which is not, you know, that's not all I'm looking for, but for something that is so personal and it's his own story. Cameron Crowe, the writer, I guess. I guess he's probably most famous for Almost Famous now. Do you think Vanessa?

C (40:09)

I think so.

B (40:11)

Broke out as a writer for Rolling Stone as a teenager. Almost Famous is a loose. It's pretty closely based on the. The truth of what happened, if not the facts, if that makes sense.

C (40:20)

Yeah.

B (40:21)

Of how that came to be. But I learned a lot. And what a fascinating life. It really ends with him leaving Rolling Stone and then writing Fast Times at Ridgemont High. I thought it would go all the way to his modern, you know, do say anything and do the making of Almost Famous and then sort of what's happened in the years Beyond. But it really ends with him making Fast Time. So I don't know if there's another volume coming. I felt like there would be. Even when I saw the page count, I was like, this is kind of short for the kind life that he's led, but it's quite wonderful. And his mother, Alice Crow, is the protagonist. I mean, he is the protagonist, but she is his. His North Star. And it begins with. In with hers in very moving ways. I found that to be quite terrific. And then I. I don't remember. I know you're a Christie person, too. How have you read the Complete Agatha Christie? Like, what would you say? How many of them have you read?

C (41:07)

I have read almost all of them, but not all.

B (41:10)

Have you read Seven Dials?

C (41:12)

I have, yeah. It's been a while and I just.

B (41:13)

Watched the adaptation, say, because that was a hit in quadrant hit for my home couch over the weekend. A three part.

C (41:21)

I almost messaged you to be like, tell Rowan.

B (41:23)

Yeah, well, I'm always on the lookout for a good mystery and if it happens to star a plucky, smart young woman, great. And this one was terrific. So, so good. Three parter on Netflix. I don't want to spoil anything. Maybe I'll ask you offline about the end of that. What goes on at the end of that particular series, which I think I had read Seven Dials a million years ago. Go. I've read enough that if I read a synopsis of an Agatha Christie book, I, I kind of feel like I maybe have read it, but I think I auto complete it in my brain sometimes.

C (41:54)

I mean, I'll be honest, I read it a long time ago and I, I. It's like, I think that's how it goes. But even I had a moment of like. Because it's been a bit. And to some degree I'm like, am I confusing it with one of the seven? You know, yeah, but, yeah, but it really, really well done. The cast is phenomenal. It's just great.

B (42:10)

So if you're into Christie that you might do a one, two punch there and comp that. I had been suggesting Rowan read Agatha Christie for a couple years now. She's just 12, so it's been a little bit young. I think this is the thing that's gonna get her over the side. She's like, which one should I start with? I was like, well, you know, honestly, yes. Murder on the Orient Express. Why not? I mean, I don't know. Do you have a, do you have a starter one that you recommend?

C (42:31)

I think I was a. Right around her age when my teacher was like really annoyed with me for asking for extra stuff to read and was like, here, here's a series. Series. Yeah. And yeah, I'd say if you start with some of like, yeah, Orient Express is going to be perfect because it's not like too much past where she's. I think that would be a good one. I have a few others that she could do. Some. Maybe some of like the Tommy Tump and stuff. I don't know if she was into old ladies yet to do like the marple of it all, but those tend to be.

B (42:56)

Not quite yet.

C (42:57)

Yeah, I didn't think so.

B (42:58)

I don't know if Lady Eileen, who's the protagonist of this, who has the adorable nickname of Bundle, which we got a lot of delight about, about wondering where the origin of that was. I think that is kind of perfect because she's like 20th but she's, you know, kind of the woman who plays her is wonderful. I'd never seen her before but she's really terrific and that was an easy hook. And do you know if she's in any of the other books? Vanessa, off the top of your head?

C (43:21)

I don't remember if she bundle. I don't remember actually I should know.

B (43:26)

This but I know looked it up too. Should done it before but those are a couple there to get you going. But that's sort of a crossover recommendation. There are more editions of all the Agatha Christie's than you can shake a stick at.

C (43:37)

Oh yeah.

B (43:37)

Over on Thriftbooks there's only the hardcover or I guess if you go elsewhere book on Thriftbooks with thriftbooks.com 19 million books. Go check them out. They sponsor frontless foyer. I ordered a couple of things recently for Zero to well Read. Speaking of Zero to well, Vanessa has been writing our wonderful companion newsletter To Zero to well Read. I had forgotten that I knew that Amy Tan was a member of an all literary group. The rock Bottom Remainder is probably the famous of whom is Stephen King. The new episode of Zero to well Read came out today, which will be yesterday by the time this is going live. In which we return to the Joy Luck Club by Amy Tan. Had you ever read that? Have you read the Joy Luck Club?

C (44:20)

I read it a very long time ago, but I. Yes, it's been a bit and I was. I love being able to relive a lot of this stuff through this podcast because it reminds me of all the things I've forgotten.

B (44:29)

Yeah. So tell the people what you're doing for the next newsletter.

C (44:31)

Yeah, so it is a companion newsletter that is sort of like. It's like show notes but better. I've been kind of jokingly saying that if the podcast is the homework, this is the extra credit.

B (44:40)

So yeah, director's commentary. Extra credit.

C (44:42)

Yeah, exactly, director's commentary. Some details about the book that maybe weren't covered. Sometimes there's some literary tourism stuff in there. I love to throw an out of context show quote because those just crack me up. And sometimes the things that are said like yeah, the one that's like, well, that's the sound of the ASPCA calling you. Like go, go listen to podcast. Yeah. So that's when I, you know, this is one of those examples where I found a factoid about Amy Tan that I thought was really interesting and shoved it in there and then she got a call from a literary escort and that is how she joined this band. So yeah, if you're kind of wanting like a deeper dive into the things that Jeff and Rebecca didn't cover and it'll maybe give you some extra reasons to pick up the book or to learn more about the people that wrote them. That's what I'm doing over at Tan Tan.

B (45:21)

Yeah. Even if you don't listen to the show or miss an episode, it's really good on its own to have a kind of a a little amuse bouche of literary facts and history and context. But it's really been great over there so far. You can find the links to that and the book Riot podcast Patreon over in the show notes, which is bookright.com listen or in your hot little hand. You can find it over there. Vanessa, thanks so much. I enjoyed getting to know Christopher Marlowe a little bit better. I'll try to remember more than the half remembered factish things I once knew.

C (45:56)

Thanks.

B (45:56)

Debate.