← Book Riot - The Podcast
Book Riot - The Podcast
Making a Case for Supporting Independent Media, Way Early Award Nominations, and More
01:08:30
Loading summary
Transcript201 lines
- [00:01]
Vanessa Diaz
Close your eyes.
- [00:02]
Jeff O'Neill
Exhale.
- [00:03]
Vanessa Diaz
Feel your body relax and let go of whatever you're carrying today. Well, I'm letting go of the worry that I wouldn't get my new contacts in time for this class. I got them delivered free from 1-800-contacts. Oh, my gosh, they're so fast. And breathe. Oh, sorry. I almost couldn't breathe when I saw the discount they gave me on my first order. Oh, sorry. Namaste. Visit 1-800-contacts.com today to save on your first order. 1-800-contacts.
- [00:30]
Jeff O'Neill
She's made up her mind to live pretty smart Learn to budget responsibly right from the start she spends a little.
- [00:40]
Vanessa Diaz
Less inputs more into savings Keeps her.
- [00:43]
Jeff O'Neill
Blood pressure low and credit score raises she's cutting debt right out of her life she tracks her cash flow on her spreadsheet at night Boring money moves.
- [00:54]
Vanessa Diaz
Make kinda lame songs but they sound pretty sweet to your wallet brilliantly boring since 1865.
- [01:02]
Jeff O'Neill
This is the Book Riot podcast. I'm Jeff O' Neill sitting in for Rebecca. Vanessa Diaz is back. So we didn't scare you off with the live pals event, Vanessa, that wasn't the end of your podcast contribution at this point?
- [01:13]
Vanessa Diaz
No. If anything, I think it cemented me as a lifer. I got to hear, you know your son semi roast you semi praise you with a rendition of why Sunrise. And the reaping is great. It was a great time. The people were great. Talking about books with people is great. It was actually a really fun time.
- [01:28]
Jeff O'Neill
It was a good time. So thanks for all coming out. Thanks for you to coming out there. It's regular new shows today. Just look at my preview of coming attractions to let people know if there's anything they should be on the lookout for. I am still working on this. We're trying a new platform for a great Gatsby thing that we're doing and it is going great at this point, but I think it is salvageable. Here we have the IT books of August coming out. Of course, the power ranking of the books of 1995 just came out. Yeah, I think the next big thing on the radar in the main feed, we're going to do the Buried giant on the 10th anniversary of that in the Patreon. But I think the next thing, Vanessa, is Katabasis in late August and I think you're joining for that. Maybe Sharifa too. Maybe several of us.
- [02:16]
Vanessa Diaz
Yeah, I think a lot of us signed up for that one.
- [02:18]
Jeff O'Neill
Have you done both Babble and Poppy War and Yellowface? Where are you on the kwong train? Are you in first class? The quiet car. Are you running to catch up? How are you on the.
- [02:27]
Vanessa Diaz
I'm a little bit on the quiet car. Yeah. I wanted to read Babel first and that was my first and I did start reading it and then I had to the book returned itself to the library and I just sort of never went back, even though I was loving it. But I really loved Yellowface. I haven't done Poppy War, but the premise of Katabas sounds so good. Yeah, I'm on the quiet car for sure.
- [02:47]
Jeff O'Neill
I'm a little concerned that the hype is this big. I don't mean to concern troll here, but.
- [02:53]
Vanessa Diaz
Nope, same.
- [02:56]
Jeff O'Neill
If the book is just okay, is it a disaster? That's the point we're at. I think a little bit. I mean disaster might be strong, but might be. Might be be a little bit tough there. Okay, that's what's going on now. We've got news. You know, quietish week in news, but there's still plenty of stuff to talk about. But we'll take our first break here.
- [03:16]
Vanessa Diaz
Today's episode is sponsored by Harlequin Publishers of let's Give Them Pumpkin to Talk about by Isabel Poppy. Textile artist Sadie Fox did not sign up for this when she agreed to come home to Pee Blossom, Indiana. It was to care for her father's beloved pumpkin patch. The deal was that just for the summer, she would grow a ginormous pumpkin, win the Indiana State Fair's pumpkin contest, and finally win back her father's grudging respect. Instead, a horde of wild hogs destroyed the entire patch. Which is precisely when the annoyingly sexy sunshiny next door neighbor shows up. Josh Thatcher is a tech millionaire who traded in the office for growing gourds including experimental squash hybrids. And for the life of her, Sadie can't understand what he sees in her sweary tattooed prickly self or why he's offering to help his biggest competitor. But a storm fueled kiss proves there's something growing between them. Maybe it's just an attraction, maybe it's more. Whatever it is, it's already bigger than Sadie's fast growing pumpkin or the secret that Josh has been hiding. This is a spicy small town fall romance that you can read in one sitting. The perfect kind of read to transition from summer to fall. And this book is by one of our very own Book Riot contributors, Isabel Popp. The book is available now@harlequin.com thank you once again to Harlequin for sponsoring today's show. Summer's here and Nordstrom has everything you need for your best dressed season ever. From beach days and weddings to weekend getaways in your everyday wardrobe. Discover stylish options under $100 tons of your favorite brands like Mango Skims, Princess Polly and Madewell. It's easy too, with free shipping and free returns in store order pickup and more. Shop today in stores online@nordstrom.com or download the Nordstrom app on WhatsApp. No one can see or hear your personal messages. Whether it's a voice call message or sending a password to WhatsApp, it's all just this. So whether you're sharing the streaming password in the family chat or trading those late night voice messages that could basically become a podcast, your personal messages stay between you, your friends and your family. No one else, not even us. WhatsApp message privately with everyone.
- [05:37]
Jeff O'Neill
Vanessa, I've got two things not on the agenda to try out on you. I'm brewing a hot take and I'm going to try it on you. I think you are a good person to try it on because you work in our business, clearly as managing editor, but you've also been an independent bookseller. And this is not really about independent bookselling, though it sort of is. So I had a listener who shall remain nameless help me out with the New York Times Best Books of the year for 1995. They were back at a talk about we couldn't get got a link like microfilm style. I had 698 pages like 12-05-1995. I was scrolling through it to find it. I'm not going to talk about that list now. But the thing that struck me and again it was the big best books of the year gifting kind of thing. So it was a big thing for books. But the number and size of ads from publishing in the New York Times Book Review then is frankly astonishing. Pages and pages. Multiple full page ads per publisher. The most 1995 thing in it probably was a full page ad from MTV Books touting their list of titles for people to consider for the holiday season. And this is something that I know. I also subscribe to the New York Times in print today and I look through the book review the New York Times Book Review every week though I don't always read everything. But the thing that strikes me is how few externally sold ads there are into the publishing industry. Sometimes there's one, maybe two. But I'm not kidding, Vanessa, when there's 30, 40 full page ads in here and that is so indicative of a the place of the New York Times in 1995 and the book Review specifically. But also where else you did not have available to you to advertise books like that was the thing that was the place. And you know, the Washington Post and some others were similar, but the New York Times should head and shoulder above. And I was thinking about this a lot because there was also news this week or last week. New York Times reassigning some of its arts critics to other kinds of coverage. Theater, art. The New York Times Book Review has changed a lot of how it does coverage. They still do quite a few reviews, but they do more lists and recommendations and think pieces and so. And there's some backlash in there. There's a big piece in the New Yorker today, not about the book section, but you know, reassigning people from regular reviews and criticism to sort of more arts coverage, frankly, like we do here and have done from the very beginning. But this is all a wind up and I apologize. The wind up here is we talk a lot about book buyers, regular civilian book buyers supporting independent bookstores. One thing we haven't talked about is is there a case to be made for the kinds of people that buy ads to support independent arts media? And I'm not talking about books. I am going to talk about books, but I mean it could be anything. And I'm not talking about us. I'm talking about us of course, but I'm talking about us. Lit hub, Electric literature, storygraph. The kinds of places that are independent and are still. I don't say fighting the good fight because it's not a. But this is what we do and supporting what we do kind of in the. Along the same analogous lines to why you should support independent bookstores. Is the case similar? Because the places that where books get talked about now at scale are individuals, you know, creators, bookstagram influence, Bookstagram entrepreneurs, which is a phrase I saw this week. Maybe we'll talk about this audiobook walking club thing, but those platforms are owned by giant mega companies and the places that get the preponderance, the vast preponderance of advertising dollars to support those companies are Amazon and Meta and TikTok. That's just, that's just where. That's where we compete for ad dollars, where the ad go. Is there a case to be made that that is bad in the same way that people only buying from Amazon now or Barnes and noble in 90s is bad? Do you see what I mean? Does this make any sense? Am I completely navel gazing in this industry? Is there anything here? Vanessa I didn't prep you for this at all because I didn't want to. But what do you think about this idea of some kind of like, you know, we talk about like sustainable or ecological consumerism, which is a contradiction in terms. But also what are you going to do besides that? Is there a case to be made here and take our own that we could benefit from this directly. And I'm always grateful that we do get the advertisers. We do. We wouldn't have a business of publishing writ large to a degree. Didn't, you know, didn't. But having said that, it really struck me that the reason the Times was the paper of record for books is because they could afford the kinds of review coverage because that was the place to go. And it's a cycle.
- [10:15]
Vanessa Diaz
That's what I was about to say was, you know, yeah, this is a thing, as Jeff has alluded to, that we have to think about all the time as a site that realize on advertising and you know, we do, there is thought that goes into it. Of course, we're not out here taking dollars for anybody. But it is a thing that you just have to contend with. Like you have to have advertising dollars. You're not going to get to do the thing that you do and call it a good fight or not. It is a thing that we care about and that we believe is just a good thing in general. Right. That folks should be be able to talk about books and spread the word about books. So if you're going to do that, you got to take the advertising dollars. But then this precious question is, I don't know that there's a perfect answer to it because, I mean, if it goes away, so do we, so does anybody else. And so, you know, that is, that's a thing. But then, of course, yeah, like if it is all just Amazon, if it is all just the folks that can afford to do all that, like, what's. What's the trade off? And I don't know that I have a perfect answer to that. Neither does anybody else, even if they pretend. At least I don't think so.
- [11:08]
Jeff O'Neill
Right. I mean, you know, I don't know that there's an equivalent and I'm not going to get into specifics because it's, you know, boring and not germane here. But like, I was just buying at Powell's today, went to Powell's to buy a book. Fine. I paid full freight, you know, 29.99 for a hardcover. I do know that if I bought that book on Amazon, Today I looked at it because I was interested. I'm a person who I could have saved myself probably 10 or 12 bucks, you know, 30% off. But I think of that as paying a premium to support the thing that's local and not Amazon. And I'm not here to say that Amazon is bad. That's not what this is about. This is about diversification of where the dollars are. Where the dollars are and then that the ecosystem can be then more diverse. Because the other thing that we've seen is a lot of the websites we grew up with, you know, Book Riot grew up with 15 years ago, are gone. Right. Because they didn't, you know, we have done, I think a good job of our direct ad business because we knew that was the thing that was going to keep us afloat as we needed to have direct sales into the publishing industry. But I can't help but wonder, like, I guess I'll just put this out here. When we, I was looking at the IT books finalists that we've done sort of through the year, so 70 titles, right. By and large most of them didn't do any advertising with us, which is, I don't care about any individual title but it's indicative like we don't get the premium ad dollars that go to these other places. And that's fine, that's fine. I understand why. But I wonder if anyone on the buy side on publishing is thinking about where the water of their advertising, what plants are being nourished by those dollars. Right. And is there a world in which there's, you know, maybe you don't get the same kind of the cost per click or return on investment or the trackable data pixels and all those things that go into it. But much like me buying from pals with a big chunk of my dollars is I'm buying something that I think worth living and I don't know, I've never heard anyone talk about that on the buy side on the publishing side. And there's a lot of talk about how we need to support independent bookstores and I am biased here. And so people can argue with you if they want and do it to yourself. Get your own podcast, I guess, or email me podcastriot.com but why not a similar full throatedness for independent arts media? Why not? We don't get it in individual patronage matters and people that support the site and just visit the site, forget about a Patreon or All Access membership, certainly help us. But that pales in comparison to say I'm not going to say an imprint. But there are imprints at giant publishers that could triple our business without too much effort.
- [13:50]
Vanessa Diaz
Sure.
- [13:50]
Jeff O'Neill
And I don't care. I mean, I do care about us, but what about some of the, like, you know, Roxane Gay took the rumpus essentially private. Private because it can't sustain itself because of advertising dollars and things being. And I was just thinking about this from a healthy ecosystem point of view and maybe, you know, the defectors of the world and they do sports and general coverages or whatever, the New York or the New York Times, they have moved into subscriptions because of this reason that competing for direct sold ad dollars is very difficult. But this, if you're independent digital media company that hasn't been around for 200 years and want to pay people a decent salary, it's very difficult to do. And for most of the people listening to this, it won't matter. They won't care. Or maybe they'll care, but there's nothing they can do about it. But I do wonder about the sort of body politic of publishing thinking about what happened to all the media that was interesting. And what is lost in that?
- [14:52]
Vanessa Diaz
Well, I mean, going super insider baseball and Jeff can stop me if I'm, you know, talking too much. But you know, one of the things I do every year is attend one of our sales guys.
- [15:00]
Jeff O'Neill
Yes, you were just there. That's right.
- [15:02]
Vanessa Diaz
Yeah. We go to a couple conferences. I go to the ala, the American Librarian association conference, where I get to just meet, you know, a ton of librarians and of course a ton of our publishing clients. And we go and we meet with them and just sort of, hey, what's up? I is the editorial presence. I'm, well, let's be honest there to take galleys home, but you know, other stuff to talk about, what they're, what they've got coming out, what their front list looks like, what are they really excited about promoting. And that helps editorial coverage. And then of course, I listen to the sales side of that conversation and you know, this is not some kind of revelatory thing. But of course, the thing that everybody asks about and the thing everybody wants to see is just like raw hard numbers. And that is a multi layered statement in and of itself. Because, you know, without going on a giant tangent, it's like, what do page views look like these days now that algorithms have changed? What do clicks look like? What does a click mean? What does a click cost? What is it like? What is it a value to you? Is every click the same? You know, and again, this is a conversation that we could go on for about an hour if you let us. But all of that sort of takes a little bit at least. It's not that it's an easy way out, but it is an easy way to explain, like, why advertising dollars are going to be placed in some places and others, even if the market is changing so much that we could be having more robust conversations like what we're having right now. And that that very direction of clicks to those bigger that these smaller companies may not sustain.
- [16:18]
Jeff O'Neill
Right.
- [16:18]
Vanessa Diaz
Is hard. But, like, that's what folks in those teams that are strapped down by limited budgets, etc. Are like. Well, what are they? You know, and so what do you do to contend with that as an independent media company that is doing, you know, everything we can? And we have also moved into subscription models because we also want to, as you said, you need to pay people a fair wage and do the book.
- [16:37]
Jeff O'Neill
Yeah. And diversify the revenue. Yeah. It's tough. And I think, I guess, you know, one thing I try to talk to people about and a lot of, a lot of I'm going to make a value judgment here, smarter marketers understand, is that if someone hears about a book through an ad or sees a banner or something else like that and they click through the publisher's website, 99.9% of the people are never going to buy from. I'm just going to pick a publisher at random, though. They're all the same HarperCollins website. They're going to go get it from Libby. They're going to go their local bookstore or the truth of the matter, 60% of them is going to buy from, from some Amazon arms, be that Kindle audible or through the website itself, so that the value of that click, so to speak, is ethereal. But the people have heard about that. And I'm not even talking about the ad itself. I'm talking about that the conversations those ads then engender that they're not sponsoring. Right. Like, you know, Pantheon is not paying me any dollars to talk about White Light by Jack Lohman, you know, the Phosphorus book. You know, they're not paying for you to do your picks, you know, to Harlem Rhapsody, that, you know, some. But we move units and talk to people and shine lights on those because we get the dollars for the other things. Right. That's the knock on effect is what I'm talking about there. And that is, I think, frankly, impossible to calculate. And I understand why, when these people, they're reportable as a spreadsheet to their manager about how well the advertising campaign did. I get it. But I think there is a forest for the trees problem here. And because they can quote unquote measure though don't get me started on what a click is and is not in the year of our Lord 2025. I think that there's maybe an under and not even sort of in an altruistic way, but maybe in a fundamental undervaluing of the lift. You get to our business and the business of electric lid and other people that do what we do because those advertising allow us to do the non sponsored stuff, right?
- [18:42]
Vanessa Diaz
Yeah.
- [18:43]
Jeff O'Neill
We write the newsletter, we do the pot even if we don't have a direct sold sponsor that day. I'm going to talk about books today that I'm getting $0 for. And if the publishing industry and the advertisers be thought about, that is underwriting that conversation. And this is something that influencers talk about too. It's like they should pay us because we talk about all this stuff. And that's the part I'm more sympathetic to. But I guess when it comes to when there's actually ad products behind it, you get both. You get the ad product and the lift all the way around. So anyway, that's my opening half baked thought about arts coverage and I'd say to people that are like, you know, the New York Times should do more reviews. We have never really done straight ahead reviews here. And really on this show we probably do more than something more like reviews than others where we talk about a book like you talked about Death Takes Me or some of those other places, not really review, but more of a discussion. But the reason we didn't is because they don't generate quote unquote traffic. It's not quote unquote traffic. It is traffic. But they don't generate the kind of attention that you can then monetize against in a meaningful way. And I know that some of the big players that you have heard of out there are having these same conversations because those things are essentially subsidized with the other coverage people do. The traffic they get elsewhere helps them subsidize the book review or the indie music review or the theater review or the art opening review otherwise. And it's just harder and harder to justify, especially if no one's reading it. Then what is it then? What is the purpose of that from a business point of view? And maybe that's where the nonprofits or the academics or something take over. But that is part and parcel of the Same thing is like we are incentivized to do things that people are interested in rather than try to serve them broccoli that they don't want to read.
- [20:33]
Vanessa Diaz
Yeah.
- [20:33]
Jeff O'Neill
As much as we may think it's, you know, good broccoli or we like vegetables or whatever, it's very difficult to do. Okay, I've got one more for you. This is much more granular. So I linked to this today and today in books. Cynthia Rivio inked a deal to narrate the audiobook of Elfie which is the prequel Elphaba's Coming of age. They just released on July 1st her narration of Wicked, a new audiobook of Wicked, which I thought was insanity that it wasn't available last October. September.
- [21:06]
Vanessa Diaz
Correct.
- [21:07]
Jeff O'Neill
Better late than never. But here's what I'm thinking. I think if you have any shot of something that's coming out being a thing at all, get someone in the cast and narrate it ahead of time. So the one I was thinking about right now, has department Q entered your personal or friend or family group orbit at all? Vanessa, Department Q on Netflix.
- [21:32]
Vanessa Diaz
Is this the Matthew Good? Yeah, I watched it twice.
- [21:36]
Jeff O'Neill
So there you go. Right. And I think it's becoming a bit of a thing like you know, we had some family in town and my, my sister in law had watched it. I recommended my brother, he had watched it. My family have all watched it. We're recommending it all over the place. And it's based on a book series. People may not know this. I didn't know this. I just wondered aloud. I was like this feels like it might be based on a book. I just heard my spidey sentence and indeed it is. And then I went to and it was like this should have a. And maybe it doesn't need to be Matthew Good, but one of the secondary stars. It's an unbelievable murders rose of secondary stars. We could talk about this but that should be available now. PRH owns the rights to this and I assume they own the audiobooks rights too. They should have had one of these ready to go because I don't think it costs that much to get a. I mean maybe it does but like we're seeing big time celebrities are narrating these things. Like Felicity Jones is just something of our backlist title. Is it 30 grand maybe? I don't even know what it is but if there was a Matthew Good or I don't know, I apologize, I don't know. But you could say like Avram, right. Who's sort of the hero of that show in a lot of ways. If there was an audiobook version of that that you could go listen to on Spotify. Spotify and Apple and the rest would promote it. It should be out now. Why is there not a Josh Brolin or Momoa Dune? Like, what are we doing here? These should be available day and date and I don't know what the holdup is. So there we go. That's. Is there going to be a Saoirse Ronan or. Actually, I don't even know. I don't know that Saoirse is going to be. I just assume because of Gerwig joint like is one of the stars of Narnia by Gerwig going to have the audiobook read narrative. They should be doing this right now and this is going to transition. There should be a Lupita Nwongo or Josh John Bernthal or a Damon or Holland or pick your stars out of this giant Odyssey to narrate an Odyssey translation. That should be out now because Vanessa, people are buying tickets to the Odyssey right now.
- [23:30]
Vanessa Diaz
Right now. Right now.
- [23:31]
Jeff O'Neill
You don't think those people would listen to the Odyssey by Charlize? I'm just picking people out of the cast. People would.
- [23:39]
Vanessa Diaz
Yeah. I can't even pick a favorite from that cast because between Yasha Lee's Theron or like Lupita Nyongo, like, they can read me a grocery list and I'd be down. Oh, yes, because as you said, you can.
- [23:48]
Jeff O'Neill
So I don't know why this is. Now the book is out or the thing is out. And I know it's much more difficult to know what adaptation is going to matter and which one's going to hit.
- [23:57]
Vanessa Diaz
Yeah, but like, wicked. Like that one.
- [23:59]
Jeff O'Neill
Yeah, right. That one didn't make any sense to me. Maybe Ereba was holding out or they didn't know. I mean, there could have been a thing where she was shaking him down. Makes it sound like she doesn't deserve. But wanting to get what she's worth maybe is maybe a fairer way to put it there. But like, with all the celebrity narrations I see, I continue to be surprised when there is an adaptation that's available and there isn't some tie in because that moves units.
- [24:24]
Vanessa Diaz
I'm very curious now about what it costs because like you said, it just seems to make perfect sense or something. Like we get in particular department queue. I guess maybe you could argue. Well, we don't know whether this is going to go, but for some of those, it just seems like a no brainer in a way that, like, is it cost prohibitive or is it just the folks are so wanting to hold on to the. Like, I want to wait to see if. Yeah, because otherwise I'd be lining up.
- [24:43]
Jeff O'Neill
I feel like you miss a lot of the. I mean, because I don't know where to. I'd be so curious to know where Department Q is in this sort of view cycle. Like what the internal graphs that the wonks at Netflix are seeing. I feel like it maybe peaked last week or two weeks ago, but maybe I was an early adopter. Maybe I don't know where I was on the curve there. But like, you want to have it when the conversation is out there because then I would, I would have linked to it. We would have talked about. We would be talking about right now.
- [25:08]
Vanessa Diaz
Frank, when it feels like it's also promotion in and of itself. Right. It's like. And then also the audiobook. I don't know. I'm. I am an avid audiobook person and so this feels very no brainer ish to me. But, you know, what do I know?
- [25:17]
Jeff O'Neill
Jack Daniels is proudly served in fine establishments, questionable joints and, and everywhere in between. So no matter where you go in every bar, you'll always know someone by name.
- [25:31]
Vanessa Diaz
Jack Jack and Coke.
- [25:33]
Jeff O'Neill
Shot of Jack.
- [25:34]
Vanessa Diaz
Jack Daniels, please.
- [25:35]
Jeff O'Neill
Right away. That's what makes Jack Jack.
- [25:38]
Vanessa Diaz
Please drink responsibly.
- [25:39]
Jeff O'Neill
Responsibility.org Jack Daniels and Old Number 7 are registered trademarks.
- [25:43]
Vanessa Diaz
Copyright 2025 Jack Daniels Tennessee Whiskey, 40% alcohol by volume 80 proof.
- [25:47]
Jeff O'Neill
Jamie Lee Curtis and Lindsay Lohan are back in Disney's freakier Friday. Yes.
- [25:53]
Vanessa Diaz
20 on August 8th WA switched bodies. I am freaking out right now. Let's pause and reframe.
- [26:00]
Jeff O'Neill
Get tickets now. Now, now, now for the ultimate movie event of the summer.
- [26:04]
Vanessa Diaz
I definitely don't know how to act.
- [26:05]
Jeff O'Neill
As an old person.
- [26:06]
Vanessa Diaz
What do they do?
- [26:07]
Jeff O'Neill
Talk about transitional lenses, home repairs, John.
- [26:09]
Vanessa Diaz
Mayer, or, you know, Coldplay. Disney's Freakier Friday in theaters August 8th.
- [26:14]
Jeff O'Neill
Get tickets now. Rated PG. Parental guidance suggested with the Venmo Debit.
- [26:18]
Vanessa Diaz
Card, you can Venmo everything. Your favorite band's merch. You can Venmo this or their next show. You can Venmo that. Visit Venmo Me Debit to learn more about the Venmo. MasterCard is issued by the Bancorp bank and a pursuant to license by MasterCard International, Inc. The card may be used everywhere. MasterCard is accepted. Venmo purchase restrictions apply.
- [26:32]
Jeff O'Neill
So on the Department Q front, real quick, I'm sort of interested in reading the book. Are you interested in the books? I am coming out of this. Yeah.
- [26:39]
Vanessa Diaz
Yeah. I was one of those people who watched it the day it came out. Not accidentally, but it wasn't like I was planning on it. It was more that I was at home that day and I was like, oh, Matt, I watch anything with Matthew and then immediately turned around and I think put the book on hold. But already they were hard to get a hold of. Like two days in when I looked on Libby. So I'm, I'm still. And it's been how long since I watched it?
- [26:59]
Jeff O'Neill
Yeah. And I don't know how much insight like who, whoever the. Who could write a check as an audiobook producer and I don't know the imprint over there at PR age that has it. Does he like, do they have enough information from Netflix to be like, oh, yeah, we're going to be promoting this. I mean, it's a Scott Frank joint. Like, it's a big deal. Matthew Goods, like, he's known, but he's not. I don't know. It's not.
- [27:21]
Vanessa Diaz
No, I agree.
- [27:21]
Jeff O'Neill
DiCaprio. Right. I'm just saying I like Matthew good quite a bit. But like it's a huge, like the budget was significant. It was a beautifully shot situation. I think it's worth cutting one of those actors a check for three grand or not three grand, 30. I don't know. I'm just guessing, little birdies, if I'm way off by an order of magnitude, please let me know. Yeah, I would be think. I would think it'd be worth a $30,000 checker for. To get one of those people in for a couple days to read into a mic.
- [27:50]
Vanessa Diaz
It has to be. But yeah, I would love. If a little birdie gets back to you. That is information I would love to know.
- [27:54]
Jeff O'Neill
Yeah. All right. So what do we. You put maybe as. Maybe we should talk about this Odyssey thing. And I guess the maybe being is this a book story? Is this a movie story? I guess the big thing is I am all for this. Like, I'm so excited. You know, people listen to this know Rebecca and I are very excited. We will have some sort of pretty opening day Odyssey thing for you. And I don't know what that's going to look like, but we will have something for everyone next summer. But what do you. Is this a thing. I guess we could do the old Letterman. Is this something or nothing?
- [28:28]
Vanessa Diaz
Yeah. That's why I think why I put maybe on this headline because I more than anything, I think it just made me laugh and I Was like, oh, is this worth talking about taking space on the podcast?
- [28:35]
Jeff O'Neill
I think it is. Why does it have a good time in the middle of summer? Is this something or nothing? Vanessa?
- [28:39]
Vanessa Diaz
Yeah.
- [28:39]
Jeff O'Neill
What do you make of this? You know, it outside of the books. Is what, what does this portend? Is this an auto. Is this an Odyssey crazy cast, Nolan specific thing, or is this indicative of something else?
- [28:51]
Vanessa Diaz
I. I think it's the former because I don't know that. I mean, granted there are people like you and I and Rebecca, whoever that are like, yes, the Odyssey. But it's also just like us. Like, I can get my father, who couldn't probably tell you jack about the Odyssey because that's just not his ministry. And he will watch this likely just because of that cast alone and the Christopher Nolan of it all. So, like, I think it's a thing, but I don't know that it's because folks are like, the Odyssey. There are some. But the fact that it's selling out a year. I love this angle. Really, that tickled me the most is that that guy went in person to buy his IMAX ticket and everybody was laughing at him and he was like, ha ha, suckers. Like, I've got a ticket in the rest.
- [29:24]
Jeff O'Neill
Yeah, I mean it's. I think there is. It's not just an edge case, but a corner case. Because the other thing is the coin of the realm for these big releases now is. Are the IMAX and they're not infinity of them. Right. Like we've even seen where this summer, which is a really pretty great box office summer. Jurassic park and Superman and Fantastic Force coming out next weekend and F1 and the whole shoot match. But they've been competing for these IMAX screens and how many weeks of exclusivity you can get on these IMAX screens because that's something that people will get off their couches for and you get more dollars per ticket. So there is a bit of a scarcity thing here. And I've argued for a long time like I'm more of a fan of markets and some people that you know are in our business would be like, fine, sell the opening day prime seats for 3x with the normal ones are. And let the people that want that to get that because if you don't do that then this what happens. Because now scalpers have gotten.
- [30:21]
Vanessa Diaz
Yeah.
- [30:21]
Jeff O'Neill
And the reason. So like either the, either the artists and the venues are going to make it or the scalpers are. There's. There's no in. There's no in the Middle Vanessa.
- [30:29]
Vanessa Diaz
Like, yeah.
- [30:29]
Jeff O'Neill
You can't just magically say, well, if you only. They're all $10, then everyone's gonna like. That's not how works. You know, concerts and landlords and the whole thing. There is no secret way to keep it cheap for everyone. There isn't. Isn't. When it comes to.
- [30:42]
Vanessa Diaz
Yeah, no, there isn't.
- [30:43]
Jeff O'Neill
Unfortunately, I will be charging Rebecca $2,000 for the tickets that I bought. Yeah.
- [30:47]
Vanessa Diaz
This is how we find out all.
- [30:48]
Jeff O'Neill
Of Richmond's IMAX seats. So I'm gonna. I'm gonna shake her down. That would be amazing if I'm like.
- [30:53]
Vanessa Diaz
Jeff and I will literally be competing for the same tickets.
- [30:56]
Jeff O'Neill
I know, right? Yeah.
- [30:57]
Vanessa Diaz
So.
- [30:57]
Jeff O'Neill
Yeah, I guess, too. I do wonder, and this is unknowable, but if this were, again, a historical epic of some other kind.
- [31:05]
Vanessa Diaz
I know. I'm like, which. What's a good call?
- [31:07]
Jeff O'Neill
Because, like, Gladiator 2 did not do great.
- [31:09]
Vanessa Diaz
No, it did not.
- [31:10]
Jeff O'Neill
And it's Ridley Scott. It was Pedro and Denzel.
- [31:15]
Vanessa Diaz
And.
- [31:17]
Jeff O'Neill
It did not have. I mean, people were excited for it, but it was not doing this. And I just wonder if there's a little. I don't know. On a scale of 1 to 10, of Jeff wishful thinking, this could be an 11. But I wonder if people are interested. They want to engage with a classic, too. They know the Odyssey is important. They know it's a thing, or even that has some brand recognition. Well, Gladiator 2 had the same thing. I don't make talking myself out of it, but I do wonder if there's a bit of, like, this is big and important, and it's a Greek epic, and I'd like to engage with that. I just wonder if it was called the Argonauts. Right. And it was just Jason or whatever. Like, just a myth of its own that wasn't associated with a singular, you know, a foundational text of Western literature, if it would be quite. So.
- [32:02]
Vanessa Diaz
Yeah. This could be singularly attached to the fact that it is the Odyssey, which I'm also kind of talking myself out of my earlier point. But it is the Odyssey. It's the Odyssey.
- [32:11]
Jeff O'Neill
Yeah. I mean, how many? There's. What could we do? 50.
- [32:16]
Vanessa Diaz
Yeah. How many?
- [32:16]
Jeff O'Neill
I mean. I mean, where is it on the power ranking of classics? Because Rebecca and I did the classics. You need to, you know, not need to read. But if you were going to pick 10. Yeah, I think we're like. I think I picked the Iliad and she picked the Odyssey and both, like, pick one, Right? Yeah, it's a pick a Shakespeare. And then after that it's like single title things.
- [32:34]
Vanessa Diaz
Yeah.
- [32:35]
Jeff O'Neill
I don't know. I'm curious to see. My expectations are high. I think it at least it's going to look awesome and so I understand that.
- [32:42]
Vanessa Diaz
I saw like a 10 second thing at Jurassic World the other day and it was like nothing. And the people were going fair.
- [32:48]
Jeff O'Neill
Did you enjoy Jurassic World? I haven't seen it yet. I've been meaning to go.
- [32:50]
Vanessa Diaz
I did. It's ridiculous, but it's one of the, like I went in, you know, that's what I went in there for. It's like, yeah, sure. Like Johansson is, you know, she does XYZ shady job on the side and is going to get dinosaur DNA. This will be fine. Like it's as ridiculous as you think it is, but it's a good time.
- [33:07]
Jeff O'Neill
Okay. Yeah, that's, that's how I'm looking for my summer movie. Watching is what can I eat with Tater Tots at the Baghdad. Yeah, that is, that is exactly what I'm looking for.
- [33:17]
Vanessa Diaz
Excellent contender for that. Yeah. And the dinosaurs are real, real interesting.
- [33:21]
Jeff O'Neill
Looking forward to that. All right, I don't remember this, and it could just be my memory, but the center for Fiction released a long list for the 2025 First Fiction Prize, so, and I, I kid you not, this is for 2025 releases. This is not looking back at 2024 debuts. These are debuts published in 2025. And I'm not really that interested. I am interested in the new releases. I'm reading a debut novel right now that I like and there's a couple other. And I can have some more conversations about it later in the year. Vanessa, when I've read some of these books. What are we doing here? Did you read my thing today in books?
- [33:52]
Vanessa Diaz
Books, yes. That's why my, my snarky agenda point is because. Sure.
- [33:56]
Jeff O'Neill
So what do you think of my reasoning? Like, how can we explain this? I tried to do a generous reading. How did I do. What do you think of my generous reading?
- [34:03]
Vanessa Diaz
The generous reading you gave is the exact one I would have given. And I hope that's not cranky, but it's just like the only reason I could immediately think of why you would be putting out a list of fiction for 2025 in July is to just get ahead of purchasing stuff. And that is coming from, you know, again, peek behind the editorial curtain. There is a reason why you see more and more of the lists that at least to be fair, or at least, you know, Waited towards the end of the year, but they come out in like, October, November. Whereas we try to wait, you know, for whatever reason. But there is an actual incentive, right, to getting this stuff out before, say, the Black Friday sales. And people are gonna be buying books. And so, like, there are reasons that book lists get pushed up. And I understand that this is. It's July, like you said, half of the book, no, like 75, 85% of the books on here I haven't thought of, gotten to, heard of. And that to me was. It's a. It's a move. I mean, it could just be the ultimate. Ha. Got there first. But that, you know, it's for fiction, does good stuff. I don't know. I'm trying not to read it. So crank. Not crankly is maybe the wrong word.
- [35:00]
Jeff O'Neill
I mean, there has to be a reason for it, right? I don't know. And you. You kind of touched on the two prongs of my thinking. One was debut novels have a very hard time getting any attention at all, as do all books. But debut fiction is maybe the most difficult. So where can we get ahead of this into pri, you know, does it put stuff on people like us radar at Vulture at time? The kinds of people that do best of lists for the rest of the year that are doing monthly roundups that it matters that they show up on here? I don't know. Is it that you and I would maybe be talking about this long list if it only comes out in October when we're continuing with other lists? Maybe it doesn't. It may not, which is interesting. So I guess I could have called someone for a quote, like a real journalist, but I didn't do that. Instead, I speculated wildly and then hit publish in the cms. Oh, speaking of Hollywood blockbusters, my favorite moment in Superman is the new one is Jimmy Olsen Publishing to the cms. From the helicopter, you actually get a glimpse of the Daily Planet's content management system. They're like equivalent of WordPress, which is hilarious.
- [36:03]
Vanessa Diaz
That's amazing.
- [36:04]
Jeff O'Neill
It's really amazing. I should make it my like new. I don't have any social media.
- [36:07]
Vanessa Diaz
I was gonna say.
- [36:08]
Jeff O'Neill
Do you know where I put this? In my mind's eye. It'll be my cover image in my mind's eye a little while longer. So 29 Long Listers. 185 books were submitted. The publisher has to submit you. I don't know. I guess just looking at this.
- [36:29]
Vanessa Diaz
I.
- [36:29]
Jeff O'Neill
Don'T know if any of these have had any. Have. Do any of these have Any heat in like a macro way, even in our circles.
- [36:35]
Vanessa Diaz
I mean, Sky Daddy is doing a few things. I think that's the one.
- [36:39]
Jeff O'Neill
That's the one I mentioned.
- [36:40]
Vanessa Diaz
Yeah. And like, but. And like, I know about loca because I cover Latin elit. But to be honest. Or like circular motion is one that I have heard a lot actually in like, not our circles. Like just I've started to hear about it outside. But that's what, three titles out of the ones I'm just going to.
- [36:56]
Jeff O'Neill
Great Black Hope, I think I mentioned.
- [36:57]
Vanessa Diaz
Oh, yes, Great Black Hope. Yes, yes, yes, that one.
- [36:59]
Jeff O'Neill
Wiltshire made it their book, their summer reads pick. We had one of our audience members, like, this is real anecdote, confirmation bias. But a BR POD listener reading it saying it's their favorite book of the year can be. It's not. Not indicative of something. But there hasn't been a big breakout by any stretch of the imagination at this point. All right, I know there are people in the industry that listen to this show. I'm also personally interested. So this is a little bit of psa. If you want to contribute to this, please do. The Book Industry Study Group is putting out an anonymous survey about how AI is being used in the publishing industry. The deadline is July 31, so by the time you hear this, most of you have a few days. And it's really to get out a sense of. It's kind of the. It is the boogeyman right now in most everything online and not online, but especially in the world of arts making. And it's sort of satellite industries, like what is actually happening, who is using it and to what end. And I wrote about this a little bit. I think the response is, I would expect would be that it's actually being used quite a lot, but not in the way that people are most freaked out about, which is actual books that are showing up on shelves with author about them and not being written by humans. I think, and I'll say a little bit for myself, I found Some uses for LLMs in organizing data, but I find it to be. Rebecca and I were just talking about this the other day. Off, off the pod. As a producer of writing, you might put in front of other people pretty weak. It can generate text, but that text feels pretty beige. So unless there are people, and maybe there are that are prompt engineering this stuff within an inch of its life, I think probably it's not that exciting to see what it's pumping out now maybe for some nonfiction reference titles, I can certainly Amanda, but I myself would not be in the. If I could use ChatGPT to write a book about this, I would not be doing it because you know, what people should be doing or will be doing. It's just going chatgpt directly for that information.
- [39:07]
Vanessa Diaz
Yeah.
- [39:08]
Jeff O'Neill
So I don't really know. That's my base case here. Vanessa, am I too optimistic or what do you think we're gonna see when this comes back out?
- [39:17]
Vanessa Diaz
I think especially given the audience this is targeting, I would expect to see answers of the using it more for like assistive versus generative uses because I feel like everyone I encounter talks about that. So I expect we're going to see plenty of that. To the question about, you know, people are not putting it in there to write stuff. It's like, I think that is potentially easy for folks like us who maybe. What's the word I'm looking for here? We. We look at writing preciously. Like I, I look at some of the stuff that Chat GPT cranks out and I'm like, that's never going to replace a human. And then for every one of me there's somebody else who's like, this is brilliant. So. But I don't know that like the results of this survey are going to be leading into that, though I do expect we'll hear some complaints about it. So it'll be interesting to see, especially since it's supposed to be used for the purposes of work that will seek to help create guidelines and best practices around the stuff because it is something that we needed to be doing a while ago.
- [40:15]
Jeff O'Neill
But yeah, it's so interesting because one thing we've heard about over time is that an individual staffer at a publisher is just juggling more stuff than they used to.
- [40:27]
Vanessa Diaz
Right? Yeah.
- [40:29]
Jeff O'Neill
And the principal reason of that is I think that those companies are trying to get more out of less human dollar labor if it helps those people live a more sane life because they can help with marketing copy or resizing images to fit the multiple platforms they have to do or even help with their cms or the myriad of, I'd say, sort of infrastructure words that a knowledge worker has to make. I find myself having a hard shedding tears that people are using LLMs in those situations, but that's kind of where I sit today. But that it's anonymous is going to be important because no one wants to. There's such a stigma around AI amongst knowledge workers or the gadflies who comment upon knowledge work maybe more than the people actually doing a lot of this work themselves that no one Wants to even say something like, I found some uses for it, even in the way I've said that. So the anonymous is the most important, like salary surveys and other things that.
- [41:30]
Vanessa Diaz
We see in, like, anything else.
- [41:31]
Jeff O'Neill
Yeah, it's going to be important to see there. Okay, moving on down the line, I have this thing about Spotify and audiobooks here. Is there anything, Vanessa, that you want to talk about on this? What do you want? We're both audiobook people, so theoretically this could be for us. We like music, we like audiobooks. And I stare at these audiobooks planned that Spotify is bringing up to expand. And I. I'm lost. I need to put this into ChatGPT. You explain it to me.
- [41:57]
Vanessa Diaz
Yeah. The way I originally read it and I read it before reading your actual Today in books, that was just like. So it's this basically saying, okay, so premium plan single members, like, you get more. And then if you're in a family, you do too. But you got to go ask your primary first. Like, is that the gist of it? I can't.
- [42:16]
Jeff O'Neill
I think so there's going to be audiobooks plus, and none of this is available in the US right now, but a lot of other English territory. So I assume it will come here eventually as they do these things.
- [42:24]
Vanessa Diaz
Yeah.
- [42:25]
Jeff O'Neill
So if you've got a premium individual subscription, that's where you pay dollars to them, right?
- [42:29]
Vanessa Diaz
Yes.
- [42:30]
Jeff O'Neill
I don't even know what it is. And that's how they like it. That's. They got me. They got me, Vanessa. I have no idea.
- [42:34]
Vanessa Diaz
They got me as well.
- [42:35]
Jeff O'Neill
My family plan. You get 15 bucks or 15 bucks. 15 hours.
- [42:39]
Vanessa Diaz
15 hours, yeah.
- [42:40]
Jeff O'Neill
Now there's gonna be an audiobooks plus plan, which I guess I'm gonna pay X number of more dollars. Who knows? It doesn't say here what that is for 15 more hours.
- [42:49]
Vanessa Diaz
More hours.
- [42:50]
Jeff O'Neill
Okay.
- [42:51]
Vanessa Diaz
That part I get.
- [42:52]
Jeff O'Neill
That part I get. The thing that nukes my brain is the audio Books plus plan for plan members. And we had a couple of people write in after we had the. The folks from Spotify on say, could you please ask them about. We need to untangle this membership plan manager thing. And I. I get it. I grok it now for the first time. So I'm going to read. This is the actual corporate communication.
- [43:16]
Vanessa Diaz
Okay.
- [43:17]
Jeff O'Neill
For the first time, additional members on premium family and duo. I don't know what duos. I guess that's for two people, but two people can access 15 months. God damn it. I can't get my units right. 15 hours of monthly audiobook Listening through this recurring add on plan members just need to request audiobook access from their plan manager who can purchase the add on on their behalf. They can also purchase a one time 10 hour top up if they run of hours before their monthly bill billing cycle refreshes. So you've got a family. I've got a family. I'll be myself. This is the most useful thing is when I'm actually the thing here, I actually have no idea what my family can do with my audiobook. Premium audio Audiobook plus member, whatever. I have no idea what they can do right now. But it sounds like I can do this. So it sounds like right now Michelle couldn't listen to it my 15 hours. Right.
- [44:15]
Vanessa Diaz
That's. That's what I was going to ask if you knew is I'm like so right now is the way the plan is set up that the only the plan manager gets those audiobook hours.
- [44:22]
Jeff O'Neill
I don't know but. But whatever the case it might be it sounds like additional numbers can access through recurring add on. So if I pay an extra seven bucks or whatever this is going to be, Michelle can also listen to 15 hours. But it's not the same 15 hours of audiobooks. You can pick your own book.
- [44:41]
Vanessa Diaz
And is it per additional plan member or is it like hey all three of you, you have to share these 15 hours.
- [44:49]
Jeff O'Neill
If Ames and Rowan also won 15 hours, that's 21 bucks for all three.
- [44:53]
Vanessa Diaz
Yeah. Like that's the part that I. I don't know if there was a better way to look at this but I'm staring at it like that's confusing.
- [44:59]
Jeff O'Neill
Gate one. So like that's the obfuscation gate one objectification. Gate two is how they need to request audio access from their plan manager me who then purchase the add on their behalf.
- [45:13]
Vanessa Diaz
So that kind of implies then that if. Yeah if Rohan and Ames are both like yo pops, dad, I want 15 hours. Then they each need to go, hey, please do that.
- [45:22]
Jeff O'Neill
Turn it on for me. Okay. They can also purchase a one time top up. So one time per month.
- [45:30]
Vanessa Diaz
That's what I'm ever one time and forever hold your peace. Yeah, I don't. Yeah. What does one time ten hours talk about? Oh, if you run out of hours before the monthly billing cycle refreshes. So I guess. Yeah.
- [45:44]
Jeff O'Neill
So this requires me to manage my plan members. Remember when my monthly billing cycle refreshes, I didn't get to be the chief revenue officer are on Spotify's behalf for this. So what I'm saying is here And I say this with all the love in my heart. If this sounds attracted to you, go sign up for Libro FM or audible or something else.
- [46:06]
Vanessa Diaz
Yeah, I'm serious.
- [46:08]
Jeff O'Neill
Because you get the whole audiobook, no matter how many hours it is. You don't have to put in a text request to your whatever to go into the thing and do the thing and press the button and remember how much I don't understand. I think this is the whatever simplicity they got from this 15 hours included they are having to pay the piper for whatever this is because this is nuts. This is absolutely bonkers.
- [46:32]
Vanessa Diaz
Yeah. The idea of having to sit down with a kid and be like, okay, so see this little 17 on your calendar before then you gotta tell papa. If you want another 15 hours, only pick books that are 25 hours or less. Or like whatever.
- [46:45]
Jeff O'Neill
Whatever has happened. This is wild stuff. I don't get this. This. I, I really don't get this. Also, I welcome little birdies. Maybe for people that are. We're already trying to manage this, maybe this is more helpful. But I'm telling you right now that I'm not like, you know what? Fam. Spotify audiobooks. That's what we were going for. Our listening. That is not happening. It's just. That's not, that's not happening at this point.
- [47:09]
Vanessa Diaz
Not in this way. And I love Spotify's audiobooks feature, but this just seems a little more complicated than I. Yeah. It almost feels like they were trying to get a little bit of that like, like Libro audible model, but made it weird.
- [47:21]
Jeff O'Neill
I don't know, it made it so strange.
- [47:24]
Vanessa Diaz
This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Knowing you could be saving money for the things you really want like that dream house or ride, is a great feeling. That's why the State Farm personal price plan can help you save when you choose to bundle home and auto bundling. Just another way to save with a personal price plan. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer.
- [47:46]
Jeff O'Neill
Availability, amount of discounts and savings and.
- [47:48]
Vanessa Diaz
Eligibility vary by state. Are you ready to dairy free your mind this summer? Melt away your dairy Free expectations with sodelicious Dairy Free frozen desserts. Enjoy mind blowing flavors like salted caramel cluster chocolate cookies and cream cookie dough and more. For over 35 years, so delicious has been cranking up the flavor with show stopping products that are 100% dairy dairy free, certified vegan by vegan action and are so unbelievably creamy your taste buds will do a Double take Dairy free your mind. Visit sodelicious dairy free.com prime delivery is fast. How fast are we talking? We're talking puzzle toys and lit pad delivered so fast you can get this puppy under control fast. We're talking chew toys at your door without really waiting. Fast pads, cooling mat and pet him are fast and fast. And there's training T R E a T s faster than they can say sit fast.
- [48:38]
Jeff O'Neill
And now we can all relax and.
- [48:40]
Vanessa Diaz
Order these matching hoodies to get cozy and cute. Fast, fast. Free delivery. It's on Prime.
- [48:50]
Jeff O'Neill
Speaking of libro, they have teamed up with encouragement from bookstagram entrepreneurs, which is. I could write a whole piece about Bookstagram entrepreneurs and not snarkily. I think it's an interesting subject.
- [49:01]
Vanessa Diaz
Interesting. Yeah.
- [49:02]
Jeff O'Neill
Audiobook walking clubs. I think that's the phrase you need. I think you can kind of infer what this is based on that phrase, based on the reading. Right, Vanessa? Like, what do people need to know about what this is?
- [49:13]
Vanessa Diaz
I mean, there it is. You gather, you audiobook, you walk and you go forth. And that seems to be the thing.
- [49:23]
Jeff O'Neill
So as someone who likes audiobooks, someone who doesn't mind getting outside from time to time, and if I don't mind saying, someone who is not averse to a social interaction with, with, you know, maybe like minded strangers, is this something you would ever consider doing? I'm the wrong person to ask. So whether or not me saying this is not for me is sort of like saying, jeff, would you like to cut your left hand off? Like, no, of course I would not like to do that. That's not, that does not suggest to all people the virtue of this. But what do you think about this, Vanessa?
- [49:50]
Vanessa Diaz
I feel like it sounds like a great idea in theory for folks who maybe are wanting to do a little bit of more socialization with the reading. But I'll be honest, and I am a person who audiobooks frequently and almost, not almost always, but I very frequently thought daily do it on a walk.
- [50:03]
Jeff O'Neill
Outside, especially this time of year.
- [50:05]
Vanessa Diaz
Yeah, there, there is something. Because, you know, the way they describe it is like, okay, so people gather and they go in. They either listen to their book or talk about it while following at an easy route at a conversational pace. I'm like, okay, so that's just the thing I could do with anybody if I really wanted to. But if what you're doing is listening to an audiobook, it feels a little like you're at the club and being like, hey, do you want, let's talk about like, talking. Like, if my point is I'm supposed to be listening to the audiobook book. I think the conversational part is cumbersome to the, like, it doesn't sound interesting to me in. Yeah, because again, like, if I wanted to just talk about books with people, I could just do that. But the, like, going on a audiobook walk thing doesn't particularly appeal to me. And I don't want to yuck anybody's yum, but it doesn't, you know? Yeah. Like, again, follow it an easy route at a conversational pace. Like, but I'm listening to the audiobooks. Or what are we. Are we going on like two hour long walks or we stop every 15 minutes and like, talk about a chapter.
- [50:59]
Jeff O'Neill
And you do one book over the course of like seven weeks? Seven, you know?
- [51:02]
Vanessa Diaz
Yeah, exactly. That's why I was like, I guess doesn't sound like it's doing a whole lot, but if it sounds great to people, you know.
- [51:07]
Jeff O'Neill
Oh, yeah, yeah. I mean, there's. There's always some people that are gonna like anything. So I don't want to yuck yum. But like, of course, I guess I'm hard. I have. I have a hard time imagining that audiobook walking clubs will be any kind of competition replacement for the idea of a traditional book club where people get around, sit around.
- [51:22]
Vanessa Diaz
That's what I was gonna say. I'm like, you could just do book club or you could just go for a walk, etc. And like, that's great.
- [51:27]
Jeff O'Neill
But I think that's interesting to have your book club just go walk and talk.
- [51:31]
Vanessa Diaz
Yeah. Like, that to me is more interesting. The audiobook specific element to me, not to get super granular, but is the part that took me out because I'm like, okay, if we're gonna walk and talk, let's walk and talk. I don't know that I'm gonna. In silence, you know? Yeah. What are we doing? Going for 30 minutes at a time and then stopping and maybe I'm just being overly critical, but I'm like, let's just do a walk and talk book club. Because I am a person who likes to get in some activity and maybe it would be good to not do that sedentarily. So cool, let's do that. But I don't know that I need to add the listening part. Unless this is like silent disco where, like, all we're gonna do is just go listen to the audiobook and make faces at each other. Great. I don't know.
- [52:03]
Jeff O'Neill
Well, and I think that's One of the cases where, though the words themselves may be appealing to people like you and me, it's actually not. It's actually not doing work we need to be done in terms of getting us to listen to audiobooks more, because we're gonna listen to them anyway.
- [52:16]
Vanessa Diaz
Yeah. Yeah. That's probably where I'm coming from.
- [52:17]
Jeff O'Neill
Yeah. All right, we're gonna do Thriftbooks now. We gotta move along here. Frontless for you is brought to you by thriftbooks.com 19 million copies. Also, books used and new games, DVDs, movies, CDs. There's a. The physical media hive is rising up. I don't know if people have heard, all across the board, especially, I think, in the movie business of people wanting to buy their physical media because you can't stream that thing and it looks crappy and. And who knows when it's going to get taken or altered and things like that. But if you're into purchasing those things, Thriftbooks.com is a place you should consider because you get free shipping on book orders over 15 bucks in the US and with their loyalty program, every purchase gets you closer towards a free book, new and used. Also a lot of new releases there. And I think you might be surprised on how competitive the prices are on new titles, especially Thriftbooks.com, thanks for them sponsoring frontless foyer. Vanessa, what have you been reading as of late?
- [53:27]
Vanessa Diaz
Make your shocked face when I tell you. I read the Bewitching by Silvia Moreno Garcia.
- [53:31]
Jeff O'Neill
Okay, we talked about this. Tell me about it.
- [53:34]
Vanessa Diaz
I love, as you know, all things witchy. And I'll read anything more Garcia writes. And I still say what I say every time, which is that I really think she just just, like, spins a genre roulette, and it's like, yeah, I'm gonna do that this time.
- [53:46]
Jeff O'Neill
Totally. It does feel that way.
- [53:48]
Vanessa Diaz
And I can't remember if I actually mentioned this on the last time I was on here, and so now I feel silly, but if I didn't, I finished it. And it's great, right? It's a little bit dark. Academia. There's a student in, like, the 90s in Massachusetts at this very swanky college who is researching an obscure horror writer whose friend went missing from that very university she goes to. The story is told in two timelines between then and early on in 1900s Mexico. You're seeing the storylines kind of converge around a certain witchy something, and it's just creepy. Academia. Fun. It was a good time. I really do just love her so much.
- [54:21]
Jeff O'Neill
Rebecca and I were talking about practical magic on the 1995 high ranking. We just did. And I was kind of off the cuff wondering about the trajectory of the witch as a sort of subject of popular culture, but also reading culture specifically. And I know you are not averse to reading about witches. Like, where are you on the wit? Like, are you still excited about a witch book? Does it seem like kind of more pat now? Have you kind of read a bunch? Like, what are you looking for in which world? For new titles or, you know, other kinds of stories?
- [54:55]
Vanessa Diaz
The thing that I found the most interesting about witchy books, you know, in the last several years, I should say, is that they're just. They're different, where they're getting more culturally diverse, if nothing else. And that to me has been really exciting to see more witch stuff. Like, for me, obviously, selfishly, from a Latina perspective, because Brujeria is a big old part of our culture that it always shocked me that we didn't get to see more in books. And now there are a few, right? We've got like Brenda Lozano, who wrote one. We've got Sierra Garcia. We've got Jennifer Gabon wrote River woman, river demon last year. There's plenty of great examples. But so it's just interesting, like conjure women when that came out, just getting to see witches from different cultures and perspectives. It does still excite me in that way. And specifically books that. That, you know, examine why we refer to women as witches in the first place is still pretty interesting for me. But there are also some that do the same old thing and maybe those less so.
- [55:42]
Jeff O'Neill
It sounds like kind of maybe to use analogy that Rebecca talked about with the genre that I am more well read in is like the food memoir. Like, I need more of an angle than it used to be. Like you know, 10 years ago, if there was a, you know, kind of a chef wrote a tell about their time in the kitchen, like, oh, I'm reading that correct. I'm like, yes, that's a great Dog bites man. A little bit to that stuff because.
- [56:03]
Vanessa Diaz
There are still very much book witches books, witch books that come out every day that are like back in Europe in whatever time. And even, even that is maybe too reductive because I will say, what's the book that came out a couple years ago, everyone knows your mother is a witch concentrated on witch stuff that was not specifically like England or Scotland. And even that was interesting because we don't tend to focus on witch narratives from that time.
- [56:23]
Jeff O'Neill
So anytime it's beyond Latvian witches, you know, Moroccan witches. I don't know. It's interesting to see. Anyway, okay, on my front, I got a couple books to talk about. I interviewed Adam Alekshik, whose new book Algo Speak just came out. He is an interesting person, but also an interesting book, but got started as a language influencer on Instagram and TikTok while he was in high school and middle school, frankly. And now he's at Harvard. He's an undergraduate at Harvard. Entomology Nerd is his hand in, but probably uniquely qualified as reporting from the front lines of language change on the Internet, but especially as it's driven by algorithms and what algorithms do and what is, I guess, basically incentivized in those platforms, but then also how those platforms censor other kinds of things. So it becomes a, we called it in the interview, sort of a game of reciprocal whack, a molecule where the platforms are trying to censor, but then the content creators or just participants online are then trying to figure out how to get dodged. And so you think the canonical one is like using eggplant to represent a part of the male anatomy, and there are versions back and forth and back and forth and get more and more interesting and more and more abstruse as they go. And his point is twofold. One is a lot of people, and I throw myself into this, don't like how algorithms themselves are the driving force, at least in English and I assume most languages now. He talked about Chinese especially the driving force in language, change slang into ideal X into actual language. That becomes part of the culture and no longer is slang. The thing I do not like about it is that the algorithms, there is a corporate incentive. There are corporate shapings. When I was a kid, and really when everyone was a kid before this, slang was much more organic. Now, in looking at 90s slang, which is the thing I grew up, it was organic in this way. And by this way, I mean not at all organic is so much of it came from movies and TVs. TV shows, right? As if talk to the hand, eat my shorts. Like, these are all products of corporate culture. But the relationship was not direct. Where if tomorrow TikTok wants me to stop saying stop just to use a random word, they could get me to do that. If I'm participating online, they would make my views go to zero and I would either have to find a workaround or some kind of euphemism or an emoji or a grawlix. And those are all words you could learn about. In his book to circumvent that. But essentially it's censoring my interest and desire to speak in the way I want to speak. It just is. I don't think there's any way around what that is. So that the. And then the reach and speed is just. It is not a difference in degree, it is a difference in kind than what language could do. Not just pre Internet because I think it was even different pre algorithm language shape on the Internet. And I actively avoid using modern Internet slang because it makes me feel like a robot. That's where I am. So I don't know. I found it really interesting. He is also in that world and I think he knows, but also makes money from it. So he's not going to be as critical of it. But I also think he recognizes what the trade offs are. I am just not interested in making those trade offs. But also it doesn't cost me anything because I don't participate in that in a way that it would cost me anything. So that's Algospeak by Adam Eleksik. The other thing I read, I just finished it yesterday. Gary Stingart's new novel novel Vera or Faith, which is a near future quasi dystopia. It depends on how bad you think the things are on there. The main character, Vera is a precocious 10 year old whose family is going through it. He uses her as a lens to examine some pretty big time cultural trends, manifestations and ways of thinking. And like Shingard does, he take some current threads and then pushes them to where for example, there's a law being debated. A series of constitutional conventions are in the offing that are going to determine whether these states are going to vote on the five thirds amendment in which certain citizens will get five thirds of a vote. Right? An inverse of the terrifying three fifths vote. But as you might imagine, the people who are going to get that vote, like you came over on the Mayflower, basically certain, however invested your family is in the business of being white, essentially you will get more of a vote, but that's in the background. Vera is just. It's a coming of age story for her, trying to deal with her family, deal with, you know, what happened to her biological mother, what she's dealing with in class and status there. It's a short format book. I don't know my. I wish I could always learn. One of my great goals is like that's a. A nine folio edition or whatever. I don't know. It's a smaller format. 240 pages, so I read pretty quickly. I enjoyed it. I need to think about a little bit more to know if it's a. If there's a there, there. I like his thinking, but I do always wonder in a book like this. I don't want Stengart writing from a 10 year old's point of view because like the couple, her parents, their dynamic feels much more dynamic and interesting to me. But through her eyes, she can't fully invest in like the specificity they become. Like I think most characters are. Most people are to the 10 year old. You are kind of a caricature version of yourself through your 10 year old's point of view.
- [62:07]
Vanessa Diaz
Yeah.
- [62:07]
Jeff O'Neill
Because they don't understand you as a flawed, you know, person in the world. And I think I understand why he did it. I think it's. It provides him some comedic elements and some innocence or naivete as she's trying to figure things out. So we're almost like a time traveler, like she is. So we're encountering and trying to understand the world we don't live in because it's not our world. I get sort of the structural reason for it, but I think there was an inherent shallowness to his incisive and I think quite winning and thoughtful cultural criticism of both left and right in all the places we are right now. But I found he could not maybe do as much of that as I wanted in a way that I wanted personally because of the limitations of that 10 year old's understanding of the world and politics. So. But I thought it was good.
- [62:56]
Vanessa Diaz
Imagine that's part of the.
- [62:57]
Jeff O'Neill
I don't know, it's a trade, it's a feature, not a bug. But there are trade offs with it, I would say, but certainly worth reading at this level. Anything else on your docket, Vanessa, that you wanted to mention?
- [63:07]
Vanessa Diaz
Yeah, I'm almost finished with this one. And unless something goes really, really sideways, which I don't think it's gonna, I feel pretty good talking about it. Which is Salt Bones by Jennifer Kivan, which is the follow up or the next book from. I just mentioned Riverwoman, River Demon as being one of my favorite witchy books. This is the book that she described as like her artwork. She's a Chicana indigenous author and a poet. And this book is a, as she describes it, Monstrous Mama Borderlands retelling of Persephone and Demeter. So for reasons I probably don't have to explain, this was always going to be a little bit up my alley. But it is set in those like mexicali borderlands near the Salton Sea and does dive into motherhood. Monstrosity. There is the element of mythology in the back, but it's just, it's witchy in its own way, I guess. But it's just unsettling and really engrossing. And anytime someone takes a crack at mythology, I'm probably going to give it a try. But it's been successful so far, so I really love her.
- [63:59]
Jeff O'Neill
Interesting. Okay, well, that's our show. BookRiot.com listen for show notes. You can email us podcastookriot.com go check out the Patreon link in the show notes there as well. Vanessa, thank you so much for joining me. A pleasure as always.
- [64:13]
Vanessa Diaz
Thank you Jeff Craving something refreshingly delicious? Meet Joyba Ready to Drink Bubble Tea. Packed with juicy popping boba and bursting with bold, refreshing flavor, these delicious fruity bubble teas are available ready to drink at your local retailers. Just grab go and sip your way into bubble bliss. Discover Joyba's full flavor lineup and where to buy at joyba.com shop shop.