National Book Critics Circle Winners, Censorship Cases on a Collision Course with the Supreme Court, and more of the week's book news

Summary

Book Riot - The Podcast: April 7, 2025 Episode Summary

In this engaging episode of Book Riot - The Podcast, hosts Jeff O’Neill and Rebecca Schinsky delve into a tapestry of current events in the literary world. Covering topics from prestigious book awards to contentious censorship battles, and shedding light on industry trends, the duo provides listeners with insightful commentary and thoughtful discussions.

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1. National Book Critics Circle (NBCC) Awards Highlights

The episode opens with an in-depth analysis of the recently announced National Book Critics Circle Awards. Jeff expresses surprise and disappointment that a favored book titled My Friends by Hisham Matar did not clinch the Fiction Prize. He remarks, “I am surprised. I expect James to win all of these awards for which that book is available and eligible” (14:06). Rebecca concurs, highlighting the artistic nature of the NBCC and its tendency to recognize unconventional works. They commend the NBCC for including a First Novel Prize, appreciating its support for emerging authors: “The First Novel Prize is very good” (18:31).

However, both hosts critique the NBCC’s website for its lack of detailed information. Jeff laments, “You can’t click on anything. There’s no explanation” (19:02), emphasizing the need for greater transparency and accessibility regarding award details.

2. Censorship Cases on a Collision Course with the Supreme Court

A significant portion of the discussion centers on the escalating book censorship battles currently navigating the U.S. judicial system. Drawing parallels to historical cases like Ulysses and Tropic of Cancer, Jeff notes, “Just because there hasn’t been a case since you were in utero doesn’t mean these things are solved” (25:28). Rebecca expands on this by explaining the contemporary scope of censorship, which targets entire categories of ideas and identities rather than isolated works: “What you’re talking about is not just keeping ‘Green Eggs and Ham’ out of schools, but these whole collections” (27:40).

They highlight the upcoming Supreme Court case Mahmood vs. Taylor, which challenges the right of schools to provide LGBTQ+ materials without parental opt-out options. Jeff expresses concern over the potential implications: “This is going to be very interesting. She [Kelly] is not optimistic about the outcome” (23:31). Both hosts emphasize the importance of the documentary Band Together, slated for streaming on April 10, as a resource to understand and combat these censorship efforts. Rebecca encourages listeners to watch it, stating, “It will light a fire under you to make some phone calls and go to some meetings” (24:54).

3. Publishing Industry Trends: Consolidation and Collaboration

Jeff and Rebecca shift their focus to the publishing industry's consolidation trend, noting that Penguin Random House (PRH) reported an 8.5% sales increase in 2024, primarily driven by acquisitions rather than organic growth: “They acquired a bunch of places that also sold books” (35:05). They discuss the implications of such consolidations, questioning the sustainability and diversity of the publishing landscape.

A highlight of the episode is the discussion on James Patterson’s collaboration with YouTuber Mr. Beast. Rebecca raises critical questions about the efficacy and motivation behind this partnership: “If you don’t know who Mr. Beast is, I get that. It’s not for you, but that media thing that this company does is a behemoth” (43:03). Jeff contemplates the strategic value, stating, “This sounds like an attempt to grow Patterson’s market into the parents of these Mr. Beast fans” (44:15). They analyze whether such high-profile collaborations truly translate to increased book sales or merely serve as marketing maneuvers for both parties.

4. Upcoming Book Riot Projects and Patreon Content

The hosts preview several upcoming projects and exclusive Patreon content. Jeff introduces his latest solo effort, First Edition, where he explores 21 anticipated book releases for April, offering listeners a behind-the-scenes look at his unconventional To Be Read (TBR) list: “It's kind of fun” (01:48). Rebecca elaborates on her own reading approach, which she describes as a “vibe check” based on weekly releases that resonate with her current interests (02:24).

Listeners are also informed about the upcoming Hot List check-in and a mini book club discussion on Audition by Kate Kitamura scheduled for next Wednesday. Additionally, they announce an interview with the creators of the documentary Banned, focusing on recent book banning efforts in South Carolina and Florida.

5. Book Recommendations and Reviews

Rebecca takes the spotlight to review recent reads by their children. She provides a balanced critique of Bob the Drag Queen’s Harriet Tubman Live in Crime, praising the imaginative rap lyrics but criticizing the book's development and character depth: “The rest of the book, to me, kind of veered into, like, after school special kind of zone” (59:13). Conversely, she offers a glowing review of Kristin Arnett’s Stop Me if You've Heard this One, highlighting its humor and poignant storytelling: “It's really funny but also like really poignant and thoughtful” (60:01).

Jeff shares personal anecdotes about his vacation reading, admitting to not completing any books but highlighting the diverse interests of their children, such as Ames enjoying Sunrise at the Reaping and Zero Stars, and Rowan engaging with Celeste Ng’s Everything I Never Told You and Beauty Land.

6. Reflections on Reader Engagement and Market Growth

The hosts engage in a reflective conversation about the importance of market growth in the publishing industry. Jeff emphasizes the challenge publishers face in expanding their market without relying solely on acquisitions: “They have not figured out how to do it” (37:20). Rebecca suggests innovative approaches like partnering with influential content creators to attract younger audiences, though they remain skeptical about the long-term effectiveness of such strategies.

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Notable Quotes

• Jeff O'Neill: “I am surprised. I expect James to win all of these awards for which that book is available and eligible” (14:06).
• Rebecca Schinsky: “This will light a fire under you to make some phone calls and go to some meetings” (24:54).
• Jeff O'Neill: “You can’t click on anything. There’s no explanation” (19:02).
• Rebecca Schinsky: “I have to say say hello to Michelle.” (19:20).
• Jeff O'Neill: “They have not figured out how to do it” (37:20).

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Conclusion

Jeff and Rebecca provide a comprehensive overview of the current literary landscape, blending award analysis, censorship debates, industry insights, and personal book reviews. Their balanced perspectives and critical examinations offer listeners a nuanced understanding of the challenges and trends shaping the world of books and reading today.

For more detailed discussions and recommendations, tune into the full episode of the Book Riot podcast or visit Book Riot’s website.

Transcript

[Jeff O'Neill]

I was never really a runner. The way I see running is a.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Gift, especially when you have stage four cancer. I'm Ann.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I'm running the Boston Marathon presented by bank of America.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I run for Dana Farber Cancer Institute.

[Jeff O'Neill]

To give people like me a chance to thrive in life even with cancer. Join bank of America in helping Anne's cause. Give if you can at B of a dot com supportann what would you like the power to do?

[Ann]

References to charitable organizations is not an.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Endorsement by bank of America Corporation. Copyright 2025 Spring Fest and EGO Days are here at Lowes right now. Get a free select EGO 56 volt battery with purchase of a select trimmer, blower or mower kit. Plus shop today for new and exclusive items you need for your lawn. So get ready for spring with the latest in innovation from EGO, the 1 rated brand in cordless outdoor power only at Lowes we help you save. Offer valid through 42 selection varies by location while supplies last this is the Book Riot podcast. I'm Jeff O'Neill.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

And I'm Rebecca Schinsky.

[Jeff O'Neill]

It's kind of a mop up day today, Rebecca. We haven't recorded in a while. I saw that you took the easy way out and republished my awesome episode with Stephen Graham Jones last week.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Listen, it was both the easy way and the good way. We had some Everyone who could edit podcasts was out of the office at the same time, which I did not realize until it was too late. So I reached for a good one.

[Jeff O'Neill]

It's a good episode. I'm glad. I mean of all the things to have there, I'm happy that was that was it really special stuff from Stephen Graham Jones over there. Programming notes Speaking of, first edition came out today, so while you're listening to this, it'll be out. I did a solo effort where I ran through 21 books coming out in April that I'm interested in.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Oh funny.

[Jeff O'Neill]

There's a little bit of it book crossover, but not too much, not enough to make it not interesting. And I say at the top of that show I will not be reading all 21 of those books. I do not read 21 books in a month. But it's kind of a behind the scenes of kind of how I tbr. I don't really TBR in a conventional sort of way, but I have a list and I have a radar and they are to be Mr. To be maybe read. To be interested in reading. To like sort of feel bad that I didn't get to or Life is short and books are long. I don't know what you want to call those, but it's kind of fun.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

That's about how my reading list goes as well. Like I, I know what's coming out each Tuesday and then it's a vibe check basically for what's out and seems interesting to me in that specific moment. That'll be fun to listen to. We are off for bonus episodes this week. We've done a bunch of extra Patreon stuff over the last month or so, so we're just taking one week off. But we have fun things coming up. Next week on the Patreon we will have a check in on the Hot list, which is our ever evolving flow. You know, it's a hot vibe checks.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, it kind of, you know, it takes different pat. It's always warm and molten, but it has different cadences.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Sometimes it's long, sometimes it's short. Just depending on what's happening in the world of books and reading, what are the big titles that have some heat going on around them? We'll also be doing a little mini book club discussion here in the main feed next Wednesday of Audition by Kate Kitamura. And in the second half of that show I will be talking with the creators of the new documentary Band Together B A N N E D where they were following book banning efforts in mostly South Carolina and Florida over last few years and a few student activists from schools that have been especially hard hit. I got to watch that over the weekend. It's really terrific and it's coming out on streaming on April 9, April 10 on Amazon and Apple TV. So we'll be talking with them right as it becomes available on streaming for folks to access to.

[Jeff O'Neill]

We're also looking for We've gotten our first wave of recommendation requests for Moms, Dads and grad season. You can shoot us an email podcastookriot.com for Patreon members. You can jump to the head of the line over there. I'll put a link in the show notes as well. Let's see, what else was I going to say? Yeah, check out the Book Riot podcast, Instagram, the Patreon, the substack. I've got a. I think I don't remember where we left this. Rebecca, who's writing up the fantasy draft rules, is that you, me, Laura or who's doing that?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I have a document of the rules for the fantasy league and then I started working on a spreadsheet that we can each use as our scoring sheet. We have a couple little nitty gritty Things that we'll need to sort out with each other and with Sharifah, who will be joining us for that fantasy league draft. But we'll be doing that here in early May.

[Jeff O'Neill]

A lot of nice feedback from our episodes with Laura. That was a really good time over there. Now I just, what I can't, what we can't have Here, Rebecca, is Dr. Laura McGrath coming into our podcast and beating us. So I think you and Shreve and I, we need to team up somehow. I don't know what kind of strategy we can do here, but it's BR versus Laura McGrath. No, I'm not.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I don't know. I like Laura. I might be teaming up.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Come on. Does a thousand episodes give me nothing. She comes on for 90 minutes, is in, charming and knowledgeable and I'm out.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I mean it's not that you're out, it's just that I like it when I win. And the next best thing to me winning is someone other than you win.

[Jeff O'Neill]

That's really tough to hear though. Very familiar sounding refrain.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I have to say say hello to Michelle.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, I will. If she was right here, she'd be nodding vigorously anyway. So that's, that's going to be really fun to take a look at over there. Point of order on something else. I was thinking about speaking of the the 21 books to look I'm looking at in April. I was thinking about kind of a Patreon maybe only bolt on to the IT books of the month where I give seven or eight like wild card picks because I'm going through the catalogs anyway and we could do 15 or 20 minutes of like here, look at these books. You know, kind of like it deals, deals, deals books for but books that are coming out that we don't know anything about and they can follow sort of the deals, deals, deals heuristic, which is just I thought they were worth talking about for four minutes and that's it.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I mean I have a couple to add on to those as well. I think. Let's do that. We'll try that out for next month's.

[Jeff O'Neill]

IT books and see, see what people think of that over there and maybe a couple like honorable mentions that were just outside the 10 or something like that. I think, I think people and I like and we know that just navigating the weekly deluge of releases is it's a lot work and also can be entertaining. Right? Like I think a lot of people are like me where knowing a book exists is like not as good as having read it but it's also not as bad. You know, it's like you kind of like knowing that the thing was there.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

It's fun to like walk into the bookstore and see the new releases and be like, oh yeah, I knew of most of these. As you were saying, I'm not going to have enough time to read nearly anywhere close to all of them. But it is fun to be like, oh yeah, I heard that that was coming out. It'll be interesting to see how it does. Or maybe it gets picked up by something. But equally delightful is the whoa, I've never heard of this. And it's brand new. And it's especially when something is right in my wheelhouse. I love that discovery moment in a bookstore. Like, that can still happen. It can still happen. That's how many books there are. People who look at this stuff all the time can still be surprised.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I realized, and I think I would have put it on the list. I'm not really sure. But I talked about it before. I didn't mention Exit Zero by Marie Helene Bertino. And that was because my filters in Edelweiss for it books is I filter by hardback.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

And that's a paperback original, and that's a paperback original.

[Jeff O'Neill]

And I just miss paperback original. And it's sort of rare that a paperback original would rise to level of it. Book inclusion and for us, I think for us, Bertino certainly is one of the most interesting books we're looking for in April. Is it really contender for it book of the Month? Probably not, to be honest.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Probably not. But we will be. I mean, it's very much in our wheelhouse, and it will be in the Patreon, the wheelhouse over there. We're going to read that short story collection and then run back the play that we did for the last George Saunders collection, where we rank the stories in Exit 0 by how Maria Helene Bertino they are.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yes, we're giving that. I mean, we're giving her the full court press because I'm also interviewing her and walking through her whole catalog book by book, which a format I've never done before. Luckily, this is one where I have the only thing I haven't read is her first collection of short stories, which I just got, but I'm going to reread everything else. So we're giving the full court press. We're having every reason to talk about Bertino.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

We can come up with not for nothing. And you can hear the whole episode of the live show that we did at podcast recommendable books of the century so far, but Marie Helene Bertino is the only author who got two spots. We each picked one of her books.

[Jeff O'Neill]

And that's a little bit of rule result because we just pick different books. If we'd had a we can only have one book by each author, which maybe we should have, but that's it. It's kind of fun to see that there as well. So yeah, those are things coming up here. Before we get into the rest of the show, we got to do a first sponsor break.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

This episode is brought to you by Alcove Press and Spotify. Stick around after the show to hear an excerpt from the audiobook of the Gods Time Forgot by kelsey Sheridan Gonzalez. Manhattan, 1870 Rua has no memories of who she is or where she came from. When she's mistaken as the missing daughter of a powerful family, she is thrust into a world of high society intrigue. She's drawn to Finn, the Lord of Dannor, a newcomer to Manhattan society and a strictly off limits man. As ancient secrets and dark magic unfurl in Rua's memory, Rua and Finn must work together despite their differences, to uncover the mystery of their past and try to save their future. In this gritty and glitter glittering historical romantasy where nothing and no one is as they seem, Kelsey Sheridan Gonzalez has been sharing her writing and her publishing journey through viral videos across TikTok and Instagram. The God's time for God offers a unique take on romantasy set in the 1800s within the real world, creating a Gilded Age story that readers will feel like they can step right into again. Stick around after the show to hear an excerpt from the Gods Time Forgot by Kelsey Sheridan Gonzalez Foreign.

[Kelsey Sheridan Gonzalez]

Is brought to you by Flat Iron Books, publisher of Girl Falling By Haley Scribner now, if you like women with messy friendships, explorations of grief, and a nice little twisty twist at the end, this is for you. Torn between her girlfriend Magdu and her best friend Daphne, Finn is looking forward to a day of rock climbing and bonding for the three women on the soaring cliffs near their Australian town. But nothing goes as she planned. And in a horrific accident Accident. Magdu falls to her death. Rocked by grief, Finn tries to pinpoint where it all went wrong. Did Magdu die because of Finn's friendship with overbearing Daphne, who has never wanted Finn to change or leave her?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Hmm.

[Kelsey Sheridan Gonzalez]

Questions? So then the police suspect the foul play, and Finn begins to search for the shocking truth about her relationships and what has been in front of her all along. So did Magdu accidentally fall to her death or was there some encouragement? Let's say, who knows? You have to pick up Girl Falling by Haley Scrivener to find out. Thanks again to Flatiron Books, publisher of Girl Falling for sponsoring this episode. Today's episode is brought to you by Sourcebooks, publishers of I'll Never Call Him Dad Again by Carolyn Darian. Now, this book comes with a bit of a trigger warning. In November 2020, Carolyn Darien received an unthinkable call. Her father was in custody. Investigators had uncovered the unimaginable for years. He drugged his wife, Gisele Pellico, and handed her over unconscious to dozens of men. But rather than stay silent, Giselle testified in open court, reclaiming her life and shifting shame to the abusers. Caroline turned their pain into action, launching Mindorpa to fight chemical submission. And together, they transformed trauma into a powerful call for justice. I'll Never Call him dad Again is an international bestseller and recounts the story of Dominique Pellico and his drugging and abuse of his wife over the course of seven years. But it isn't just another true crime story. It is a call to action. So let's support survivors everywhere. Make sure to pick up I'll Never Call Him Dad Again by Carolyn Darion. And thanks again to Sourcebooks for sponsoring this episode.

[Jeff O'Neill]

We're not quite to the end of 2024 Books and awards because the lag really ends with the Pulitzer Prizes, which is soon. Right. Next couple weeks.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

In the next few weeks, late April, May, we'll get the Pulitzers.

[Jeff O'Neill]

But in the amuse booth to the dessert that is the Pulitzer Prizes, we get the National Book Critics Circle Awards. That came out, I think, the week before last. I'm not really sure when these came out.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I think before we missed it on the news show was right. It came out after we recorded the last episode.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Oh, you and Vanessa probably would have covered it. Yeah, right, right. The award winners there. There's fiction, nonfiction, biography, autobiography, poetry, criticism, and first novel prize. We talked about the finalists a little bit here. The. The headline for me here is that James did not win in fiction, which, okay, I have not read My Friends by Hisham Matar. I've heard nothing but good things about it. So this is the rule. This is. This is a rule you and I try to follow. Whereas if something is on a list or wins a prize and you haven't read it, you can't say it should have been X. You can say, I'm surprised. Maybe I would like to have seen. But we played this game with the. What were. Oh, the classics on the Patreon. Like, okay, give us your feedback. But you cannot replace a book you have not read with something you have because that is available. Like, that's maybe under the definition of availability bias, I think, right there. So now, having said that, a surprise, I guess. You know, I expect James to win all of these awards for which that book is available and eligible. I will read this book eventually, I think, my friend.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah. And, you know, it was nominated for the National Book Award for fiction as well, so not a total. This one didn't, you know, totally come out of nowhere. And as I've thought about it, I think if any of the awards were going to veer away from James, it would be the National Book Critics Circle. Just by virtue of, like, it's so arty. This is such an arty crowd. I will read this one as well at some point. I'm seeing a little of this happening currently on the Morning News Tournament of Books. It has come down to James and Martyr, which was also one of the National Book Award nominees that went up against it. So really, as you were saying, the only question remaining for James is the pull. And those can zag sometimes because it's.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Like three people that nominate to the greater board. Like, some of the structures of these things, we don't know how they work. And the smaller the pool, the more randomness.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

And I mean, sometimes in years there are. There are good books every year. And, you know, 10 years ago, they just didn't award one.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I would be. I didn't think we've talked about that before. One part that never really occurred to me till. I don't know, I was thinking about in some context. I don't know what. Like, if you did all the work as one of the Pulitzer judges. Right. Like, you did the work of reading the books and you make a recommendation to the board and then they're like, nah, I would be so mad.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Me too. Especially under the rules we're talking about here. If the board says nah, but it's not because they've read all of those books as well and they disagree.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, like, I don't want a book about fly fishing. Well, you know what you can do with your poll. Anyway, so the other winners here, I'm very pleased to see Challenger by Adam Higginbotham win. That book is awesome. I don't know what to say that for those who don't know, it is about the culminating in the explosion of the Challenger Shuttle. But really, a history of NASA to that point and shortly thereafter. That shows how it got there. There are stories of supreme neglect and avarice. There's also surprising stories to me at least, of people who averted other disasters. There's this one woman, and I don't remember her name. I think it's Jenna something. I wrote it down, but I don't have my notepad with me who basically knew that the instrumentation was faulty and avoided aborting another shuttle launch that probably would have killed everyone. Because she's like, you know, this is more of. This is a problem with the check engine light, not the engine. Like she knew.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Oh boy.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Okay, so like it was a little bit more held together with two hands, metaphorically and figuratively. Like so anyway, that book is terrific. Highly recommended. It's very long. If you're going to read one Higginbotham though, and you haven't read Midnight and Shared Normal, that one's still the best one. Okay, there you go. And then, you know, for the completely understandable. And I totally get why there's always this year by Hanif Abdur Akiva's in criticism.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

You know, they have. I'm always happy to see Hanif Abdurraqib win awards. I think this is just evidence that awards giving bodies don't know what to do with books that don't fit neatly into one genre.

[Jeff O'Neill]

And rightly so, because what do you do with a. You have a wild card award. Well, actually that's a good idea. They should have a wild card.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, they should have a wild card category because they have a biography category separate from an autobiography category. You could make a case that there's always. This year is a. It's a form of autobiography.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I think it makes more sense. Criticism.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Absolutely right. And then criticism. I think his previous book, A Little Devil in America fits more neatly into criticism. I would have put there's always this year into the autobiography category. But then maybe you're up against like Alexei Navalny's autobiography comes up. So there's some juggling there. But one of the remarkable things about Hanif Abdurraqib is that even though no one knows quite like which shelf to put him on in the bookstore because he does multiple things at once, he continues to win awards. Like they find ways to recognize him because he's so deserving of it. So we're thrilled to see that. Of course. Congratulations to him. I'll be really eager to see how the Pulitzers shake out in a couple weeks.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Another thing we like about the NBCC is That they have a first book prize. Is it first novel? Okay. So appraise and feedback for the NBCC here on their, on their homepage, on this, on this page that has the awards.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Do you know what I'm going to say?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah. For having the first book prize.

[Jeff O'Neill]

That's very good.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

That's the praise.

[Jeff O'Neill]

But it doesn't say. It says John Leonard Prize and then say what it is. Oh. And then you can't click on anything.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah. You just have to know that that's what the John Leonard prize is for. Yeah.

[Jeff O'Neill]

And the Toni Morrison Achievement Award goes to Third World Press. And it's just, it's just words like I can't click on it. There's no explanation. Like, what are we doing here?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

You can't even open up a synopsis of the book by clicking on it.

[Jeff O'Neill]

No.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

If you scroll to the top of the page and you click on the long list, you get like, really no further information.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah. So great.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

A more robust website would be great.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I mean, is link to something. Link to the publisher page. Like maybe they're like, we don't know where to link, but can you pull the synopsis from the publisher? Like we have the technology here. So you've got good stuff. Don't put your light under a bushel.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I support this.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Lights go outside the bushel. Outside the bushel.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Books are hard enough to sell. Let's try to make it a little.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Bit easier or just know something about. I wanted to click on this.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Lights go outside the bushel. It's like a great nugget for a self help book.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I'm not even metaphorical gun to your head. Could you identify a bushel in a lineup of things?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Absolutely not.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Is it. Is it like a hat?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I picture those, you know, like a bushel basket. Like if you go apple picking and you have the old timey baskets for that. That's what I always picture for. Hide it under a bushel.

[Jeff O'Neill]

No, it must be. It must have been a basket for like you just pick stuff and put it in there. It's like I couldn't pick. I couldn't pick out what a cord of wood is either. That could be like an airship, like an aircraft carrier. Amount of wood or like three pieces.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Right. Somewhere between those, I think is. Yeah. Somewhere between 15 minutes and all night is your problem. Jeff.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Don't put your light under a basket. And who did this? I mean, where'd that metaphor come for? They like saw some kid like, you know, Johnny or Jebediah. Your light doesn't because those things are flammable. That's the other thing.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Right. And we would be talking about like old timey candles, probably, that you snuff out by putting them under or you.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Catch the basket on fire. Like, there's no good reason here.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

The wheels have come off.

[Jeff O'Neill]

That's okay.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

And see, you know the origins of hiding your light under Bible verse.

[Jeff O'Neill]

This is. Yes, it is. Well, no, it's like a song.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Well, I know, but did the song come from a Bible verse?

[Jeff O'Neill]

It's been a while since I've, you know, I've been. I've been sufficiently trained in the good book to be able to tell you that right there. Anyway, this is what happens when you don't hyperlink your texts. This is what happens.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

You have podcasters going wayside.

[Jeff O'Neill]

We don't know what to do. We're just flailing. Okay, so enough about that. You know, the courts are trying to do some of their things when it comes to book bans. And the most recent one is Kelly wrote about this while I was gone last week on the 26th, that a federal judge has again blocked our favorite bill. You know, it's a bad bill when I know it. 496 is like, oh, I Senate 496. It's that one. This is the third decision, as Kelly notes, over that bill. So I guess I don't really know where we are in the appeals process. I assume this is going to end up in the Supreme Court.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I assume one of these is going to go there at some point. And this Iowa seem, the Iowa one seems to be like a good contender. It's one of the ones that is usefully vaguely worded where, you know, things have to be age appropriate, but there's no definition of age appropriate. And they can't.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Age is. Or appropriate. Yeah, great.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yes. And they can't contain descriptions or depictions of sex acts. But like, is mentioning that someone kissed a sex act. How. How graphic does it have to be to count? And then of course, there's the whole thing where they are describing these materials as pornographic that don't meet the existing legal standard of pornography. But words don't mean things anymore here in George Orwell's America.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Kelly also rounded up the biggest book censorship in banning news of the year so far and the degree to which the Overton window has been ripped out of the wall and put into a separate building. Any one of these stories would have been the story of the year four years ago. And I guess just to pick one that's related because I was mentioning the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court's going to hear one of These cases, Mahmood vs. Taylor, which is about the situation in Montgomery County, Maryland, and access to LBTQ titles. And the issue is, do the schools have the right to provide the materials without giving parents an opportunity to. I'll link it. You can see Kelly's strikethrough commentary here. Opt their kids out about learning that, you know, LBTQ people exist. Kelly is not optimistic about the outcome, but that's going to, that's going to be very interesting. She also notes that we have not had a books related case in front of the Supreme Court since 1982.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Wow. Okay.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Which is really, really interesting to see because you know what? We thought we sort of figured this out, that most of the time it's cool.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah. I mean, that's the year that I was born. And until the last five, six years of this stuff, it seemed like we had pretty much settled on. Books contain ideas and you decide which ones you want to read. But the fact that you don't want to read some of them doesn't mean you have the right to tell anyone else that they can't read them. And that is apparently once again in question. I'll just again encourage folks mark it on your calendars next week for when Band Together comes out and you can watch it on streaming. A really terrific resource, especially for folks in your life who are maybe just kind of aware that this is happening. But they're not as plugged in. They're not listening to book podcasts on their own, but they're curious about it. I mean, we read all of this stuff as Kelly reports it, and we're following it. And I still found it really astonishing to see some of the footage from inside those school board meetings. And they did a great job of getting one on one interviews with like teachers and librarians who have been personally targeted by Moms for Liberty, personally targeted with harassment campaigns by parents and groups that are angry at them and just, just how devastating that is to their lives, but also to the students who rely on them for support and for resources. It will light a fire under you to make some phone calls and go to some meetings.

[Jeff O'Neill]

You know, it's interesting, I know a little bit about earlier in the. Well, we're not in the 20th century, so early to mid 20th century court cases around obscenity. And I really got into it when we did the annotated about Ulysses. Right. Because there's a big court case about whether or not Ulysses was Very interesting. Interesting to read a court case about whether or not it's obscenity. And there was subsequent court cases like 30 years later around Henry Miller's Tropic of Cancer and Allen Ginsberg's how so this does come up. I guess I think it's helpful to have some sort of historical prism because just because there hasn't been a case since you were, you know, in utero.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Doesn't mean these things are solved. And it doesn't mean that we're going back to them. Means we're like Handmaid's tailing it. It's not great, but there are these pendulums. Like the arc of history is, you know, bends towards justice, you know, as Dr. King said. But that arc is bumpy and there's like some loops back and forth. Nonlinear, is non linear. And I think it's helpful again maybe to give people a sense of that because. Just because we're having these cases and challenges that are very much retrograde. To me feeling it's sort of. I don't want to say it's normal, but it isn't. It isn't a sign that things are broken. It's a sign you gotta do something.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah.

[Jeff O'Neill]

It's a sign you gotta argue, but like this does happen and then they get overturned and another court case does it. It takes time, but these things do happen.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

What makes this moment maybe not totally singular, but unique in the. In contemporary history at least, is that it is part of a larger movement and systematic. Like it's not about, is this one book obscene? It's not just Tropic of Cancer, but about these whole collection of books, but really about suppressing a whole collection of ideas and identities. And you can. On the left here, we can start to feel like we sound like conspiracy theorists when you talk about how these groups are connected and what these campaigns are about. And that's another thing that they did really nicely and band together is interviewing Democratic politicians, liberal folks who were like, here's what happened in Florida. Like this got passed in this specific way because campaign money was funneled to this person and that person and Moms for Liberty are deeply connected to the apparatus of the Republican Party, both nationally and at the state level. Varying degrees in different states, but extremely connected in the state of Florida. And that is a huge reason that they've been so successful with the book banning attempts in that state, is that they are so at every level of state government, they're backed up by folks who share this ideology and who do see this as A way to. They, they state, as one of the student protesters says, they state that they're protecting the children, but no one is asking us, you know, what we actually want. But they certainly have ideas that they believe children should not be exposed to.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah. I mean, again, the, the historical moment, I think it's just so helpful to compare and contrast because like Ginsburg was expelled from Columbia for being found in bed with Jack Kerouac.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah.

[Jeff O'Neill]

You know, the District Attorney of San Francisco brought the case against Ginsburg. So like this, whatever's happening now is not that like that was more. This was more radical because it wasn't just keeping Howell out of high schools. This was, should Henry Miller be thrown in jail? Should City Lights be unable to distribute these books? So like, things have moved again. I'm not trying to Pollyanna anything, but these things have their, their moment because there is a broader thing in the argument. And like these things against Howell and Henry Miller were certainly like related to McCarthyism in the 50s. And you know, people being nervous about the world changing again. Like there's so many interesting parallels. Like it's a lot different, but it's also fundamentally feels kind of the same, honestly, in a fundamental way.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah. I think what you're talking about kind of that cyclical like expansion and then reflex nature that when there is an expansion in public consciousness and an expansion in our understanding of rights and freedom of expression. Like what does freedom of expression mean? People who are scared of those things contract or they, they attempt to contract it all by pulling back and restricting everything. And there's a, I, I think a much like too shiny way of explaining it. Like this is how you know you're winning, that people are coming for you. Like we have made meaningful progress. And you can see that in the way that human rights have expanded in the last 20 years in this country. The right does not like that and they are attempting to come for it. I think we can expect those cycles again. Like, I, I completely share the belief that the arc of the moral universe bends towards justice. And I have a six simper tyrannis tattoo. Like, I don't think this, but someone's.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Got to bend it. Right? Like it doesn't bend by itself, I guess is the point. Like you got to keep, you gotta keep working the middle.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Like this stuff never ends in the way that the people who are trying to restrict freedom want it to end. But we do have to keep fighting and move to the next one and then come to, I think really an expectation that this is what will Happen the next time. There are big steps taken forward in how we understand freedom of expression and human liberty. That every time more people get free, the people who want the control of power are going to attempt to restrict it. And right now, books are at the center of it, but they might not always be.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, And I don't know. I don't know this history at all is like, you know, as Kelly has written about it's. We've moved on from the point where a single book has become the flash point for these like it's whole categories or depictions or identities. Like that's that I don't have ready at my own mind and a historical antecedent for. Maybe there were things like this, but like that I can name Ulysses, Tropic and Cancer and Hal as specific is meaningfully different than any book that mentions LBTQ people. Or there's these vague age appropriateness, at least in these cases. In a lot of ways they're like weird close reading cases. Like in each single one, the judge kind of made the same arguments like, yes, there are sexual depictions here, but the literary merit of the thing says that it's not pornography.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Right.

[Jeff O'Neill]

And so it shouldn't be regulated like pornography. And they become sort of de facto close readings of these texts, which are. I mean, I find that as you kind of.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, that's fascinating.

[Jeff O'Neill]

That's like catnip for me.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I mean, part of the problem is.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Not doing anything like that.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

The folks who are challenging these books are not close reading them and in many cases not reading them at all.

[Jeff O'Neill]

It's very. It's very much a, I don't know, blankets, indictments and, you know, judge, jury and executioner based on just the presence of specific people or identities. You hate to see that.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Wow, this house is cute. But can I really get in the game in this economy? I do have savings and I am responsible.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Ish.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I should bury it. I'm being wild. But what if I'm not being wild, though? Could I actually score a kick off.

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[Rebecca Schinsky]

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[Rebecca Schinsky]

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[Jeff O'Neill]

I'm glad to see the bishop who urged Trump to have mercy during the. It was at the National Cathedral.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

It was the National Prayer Breakfast.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, that's part of the inauguration. Pomp and circumstance took the occasion to sub preach, I guess, or overtly preach, I guess.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

She did not throw away her shot is what happened right there.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah. Reverend Marianne Edgar Buddes B U D D E Buds How We Learn to Be Brave is coming out on October 25th. There's also a picture book scheduled for the summer of 2026. Great Penguin Young readers Pyr is taking on. So one is young adult and one is a picture book. I'll be interested to see how they try to ban these.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Oh yeah, I'm sure they will. So just as a quick point of order, her book How We Learn to Be Brave came out in 2023. That's adult, I'm sorry, written for adults. And then in the wake of the National Prayer Service and her sort of having this real moment of public attention, they're doing a young adult edition, which is We Can Be Brave. That as you said, will be out October 25th. And then there'll be a picture book in the summer of 2026. We certainly need more people who are willing to stand up to shoot their shot like this when they have a moment to say the thing and to be unafraid. I mean, Trump was out there the next day calling her like a terrible left wing radical and all sorts of things. And I, I think she knew what she was signing up for when she, you know, took the pulpit and said the things that she chose to say. So, Reverend Bud, may your efforts succeed. We'll be very interested to see what the book tour process looks like and how they're, how they go about publicity for these titles. But more like this, if you're in a position where you're, you can help people who are willing to take their message out into the world and fight the good fight like this. Get book deals. Let's get them some book deals, people.

[Jeff O'Neill]

It's also, I don't know where we are in the political book buying, deal making cycle. This is a much different moment than 2016 into 2020, for sure, in a lot of different ways because the pace is pretty quick. Like even Cory Booker's like marathon strong beating. Filibuster is kind of washed away today by the tariff. Like I. I'm curious, even by the fall, will people have to be reminded.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Oh, that's a good. Yeah, maybe like the cycle. Those cycles for publishing are longer than the news cycle. Certainly. I'm waiting to see which publisher is going to announce that they are binding up all of the stuff from Cory Booker's like Melville.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I mean those are public records.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Melville House is probably there.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, they're probably writing it up right now.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I'm waiting for the press release about that. But if they can get that one out pretty quickly, I think there will be appetite for that. Like that's going to be a historical document at some point.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, I think it will be at some point. Speaking of Penguin Random house, sales for PRH were up 8 and a half percent in 2024, topping $5 billion, I believe for the first time. Yeah, it would have had to have been. The story here is more that they acquired a bunch of places that also sold books. I don't think there is a lot of data here about the actual unit sales from existing. It's like, what is that? In publicly traded companies that are retail, there's like two different ways of looking at earnings. One is like same store sales versus new store sales.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yes.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Like, okay, you're going to sell more if you open a new Chipotle in a town that doesn't have one. That makes sense. But what does your Chipotle that's been in the same place for five years doing? And this has been a longer term store. This is why the acquisition thing has been happening really since we've been doing Rebecca. Right. Is because it's so much easier to buy an existing Chipotle. Well. Or buy an existing burrito joint and turn it into a Chipotle.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Turn it into a Chipotle.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Hey, look, our sales are up because the profits that they're making, they don't have a good way of reinvesting into the company to grow sales. So they take that free cash flow and they buy other things. Other people have written about whether this is bad or good or conglomeration. But I think it speaks to the fundamental problem in publishing is that reinvesting the profits they do make into their extant businesses sort of doesn't work. Yeah, it sort of doesn't work. It's like the big open secret in publishing. The thing Warren Buffett always looks for when he's acquiring this is now Stock Corner with Jeff apparently is what I'm doing Right now it's like Warren Buffett.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Come on.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I'm thinking of Bob today. Bob today.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Oh, man.

[Jeff O'Neill]

My baby boy.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

The day after tariffs is an interesting day to be Bob today.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I wondered when you asked about the coffee grinder that I had. It's like, can't you just use Bob. Bob's teeth Anyway? Like, you know, Buffett, when he acquires a company he's looking for, can. Can this company take its earning and reinvest in the company and grow? Because that's kind of the magic flywheel of this kind of compound growth. And publishing cannot do it.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

They have not figured out how.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Not figured out how to do it. And so what are you gonna do with the money that you make? Well, some of it you return to shareholders, but some of it you try to grow the business. And the only way they've been consistently able to do it it is to buy other publishers. And the problem with that is, at some point you run out of other publishers. Forget all the stuff about monopsonies and monopolies like that could be very well. But at some point that there is a logical end to that where there are no more publishers.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Right? Yeah. It's similar to, like, Amazon grows at such a rate that there's a. Like, there is a timeline at which Amazon cannot continue to grow at that rate because people run out of people on.

[Jeff O'Neill]

There won't be enough dollars to make. If you're growing 11% a year over like.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Right. And there are only so many publishers that will remain available for acquisition that would make sense to acquire. I don't think we're near the end of this kind of consolidation, but I feel like we're in a different zone of it than we were in five years ago, 10 years ago. Like, it was a huge deal when Penguin and Random House merged. And it doesn't really feel that different to be in publishing now than it did then. Like, if you are a person who lives in New York and works in publishing houses and you've watched, like, job opportunities shrink, I'm sure that that feels very different. But especially, you know, since the Simon and Schuster situation got kibosh, I think.

[Jeff O'Neill]

That was the big one. That feels like maybe the. At least the political will I be. If that court case came today, I think Pierre would have been allowed to buy some probably regime. I don't know if one of these big four or five will have the opportunity to pick off another one. I don't think they're all interested in it. Right?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I mean, yeah, I don't think they are all interested in, open to it either. And some of them, some of them are doing better than others in terms of like in, in terms of doing that thing you're talking about with reinvesting their profits and growing the company without acquisition. But this is, this is tough and interesting to see that, that it is pretty clearly these increase in profits are pretty clearly driven by having acquired other publishers, not by having figured out how to grow their own businesses.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah. So I'm, I'm not sure there's much story here except to say the, the beat goes on in terms of how do you actually sell, how do you grow the market. Right. Because those are your two options. If you're trying to increase your sales, especially if you're PR age, which you're already what, 60, 70% of trade sales, you've got two options you can take from other publishers like win, you know, this book versus that book against a competitive title or competitive imprint. You can buy other publishers and bring them an umbrella or you can try to grow the pie so that the slice, you know, your 14%, your 60% depending on what publisher you are, gets you more calories. Right. Because this slice is a little bigger and that just has not been figured out. And one of the things I remember, I think Lisa Lucas saying as part of either her entry into the editorial process or exit from was she was surprised. Again, I don't remember, don't quote me on this, I could have gotten this wrong. Maybe it was somebody else, but I'm attributing it to her. One of the things she was surprised by was the disinterest, unwillingness to try to grow the whole market. Right. Investing in, I don't know, younger readers like you have to. This is a multi decade thing. It's, it's probably easier. Right. Well, cigarette companies know how to do this. You hook them while you're young. Right. So they grow up to be smokers. It would make sense for, you know, a better product, for example, but like you're making lifelong readers. I'd imagine it'd be much more cost effective to try to get a nine year old who's already sort of reading books in school to become a lifelong reader than to convert a 47 year old guy like me who maybe isn't reading. Right. Which one is it? Difficult and in the lifetime, I don't know, they think about those terms the way that these publicly traded companies report on earnings. They do not lend themselves to a multi decade.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, we're investing and we'll Give you returns this in 20 years is not generally well received.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah. So anyway, that was a lot of. That was a lot of something for saying. Not sure there's much to see here. What do you think about growing the market by getting in bed with giant YouTubers who make sell chocolates and do giant stunt YouTube videos?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Oh, I just had a real like, of course this is what we're doing response to this headline, which is that Mr. Beast, who. I would not have been able to pick Mr. Beast out of a lineup, but that's probably by virtue of there are no children.

[Jeff O'Neill]

You've never consumed a feastable.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I don't even know what that is. Is it like a lunchable?

[Jeff O'Neill]

It's a candy bar.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Mr. Beast, popular YouTuber is teaming up with none other than James Patterson to write a not yet titled book that's being described as Squid Game esque. Players fight to survive deadly tests held in dangerous locations around the world as they battle to become the one. It was a bidd war with offers that were in the eight figure range. It broke out over publishing rights and apparently there's already, of course, high interest in film or TV adaptation rights, as this piece in Vulture by Jennifer Jahn states. Basically, it seems almost guaranteed that these two rich dudes are about to get even richer. Okay, okay, this is what we're doing now, I guess. Talk about, like, maybe either they really do understand how to reinvest or they really don't. Like in this week's Publishers Weekly, the number one hardcover fiction book is a new James Patterson title. And that is just the reality. But like eight figures, do we really think we're going to sell enough books to have made that?

[Jeff O'Neill]

I mean, here's the thing. If you don't know who Mr. Beast is, I get that. And you're probably better. It's not for you, I would say, but that media thing that this company does is a behemoth. Like when you talk about platforms.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Oh, yeah.

[Jeff O'Neill]

As big of an individual. I mean, it's bigger than any number. It's bigger than any celebrity name you know of. It just is. And I saw a breakdown of this company's revenues the other day because this is what I do with my free time, apparently. And it's shocking the amount of money, but also how much of it isn't just from the YouTube stuff. Like that's kind of a loss leader for the chocolate company and the hamburgers. And. And like it is this. It's this different kind of in the corporate influencer ness is a new Thing under the sun.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah.

[Jeff O'Neill]

And it makes sense to try. I don't know that your Mr. Beast watching fanboy is going to pick up a book to. I. That's an interesting question. If they do, there could be something here, but I don't know.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Like, my best guess was is this a way to grow Patterson's market into, like, the parents of these Mr. Beast fans?

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah. Who. Who's, like, who's. Who's extracting value from this?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Right. Because I agree, like, I'm. I'm not sure that most of the. I assume it's relatively young people that are Mr. Beast fans. Like, I'm aware of the Halo of Mr. Beast, but I have not consumed any Mr. Beast content. Is this an attempt to get the Mr. Beast fans to buy books? Are we temping, attempting to, like, grow Patterson's audience by tapping into, like, their parents? What do we think is going on here? Is the James Patterson flavor of book like the lowest hanging fruit for if you want a Mr. Beast fan to read a book, maybe that's what you're gonna give them. But Also, if you're Mr. Beast, why not just do it yourself? Like, that was the most interesting thing to me.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I think that's a really good question. I think that is the question to me.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Like, Mr. Beast is kind of a one of one in terms of audience and attention in the way that we talked about Taylor Swift being a1 of 1. Why is there not just a Mr. Beast Fiction Franchi that even if he didn't want to write it, it could be ghost written? Like, what is Mr. Beast getting out of partnering with James Patterson? I understand what James Patterson might be getting out of partnering with Mr. Beast.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I think the other thing that's hard to remember about the James Patterson industrial complex is that they have a mechanism for making these books.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Sure.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Because we have not seen a lot of sales data after the fact. Maybe this is a Brenna question about these team ups. And they must have worked because we keep getting the Patterson plus X, the Uber for X, but the Patterson for X team ups. They must be working because they keep happening and they get. They get a big deal. Now, do you Peter, principle yourself into the one that fails? I see there's a world in which this works really well or it's for neither. It turns out to be neither for the Patterson fan or the Mr. Beast fan.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

My question is, like, James Patterson books just sell. So do the partner ones sell meaningfully better or meaningfully more copies than the ones that just have James Patterson and Some other co writers name on the COVID Like if you're going to give James Patterson $10 million to write a new book, and like we just know this is in the eight figure range. So now I'm just guessing, but if you were going to Give James Patterson 10 million to write a new book, or you have to give him and Mr. Beast 20 million combined for this, do you get. Is the juice worth the squeeze?

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, I mean, I think a lot. It's so easy when it's not your money and not your industry. Say, boy, it seems like they're being dumb about this and sometimes they are. I don't really know. I guess the generous reading would be that they've seen enough success to branch out because this is, this is categorically different than a Bill Clinton or one of these other kinds of like celebrity, older traditional star kind of.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

And that's what was making me wonder if this is more about growing Patterson's appeal because his. He's an older white guy. He partners with people like Bill Clinton and like other old white guys typically to sell books to old white guys in airports. And if you're trying to get him to a younger audience, I can see somebody on the Patterson team thinking like, oh, maybe Mr. Beast would be interesting or somebody who has that kind of audience. I just have a lot of questions.

[Jeff O'Neill]

It's fat. I'd love to know the who approached whom. What were the negotiations like? Also, it's so funny that Mr. Beast, like the actual guy's name is Jimmy. Like he's a James too. Are we looking for the next James Patterson? Right. Because like, in a lot of ways Mr. Beast is a, is a new media James Patterson, where he puts his name on a bunch of stuff. I don't know how many of these things he actually makes or agrees to ordains or just sort of like taps the fairy wand and says, yes, you can go make that under my, my shill. But yeah, I think the, the book writing apparatus that the Patterson imprints over at Hachette knows how to make is undervalued. I think one people who, people who look down on the Patterson industrial complex and there's so many. I think the thing they don't realize is people would not be buying these books if they didn't fundamentally enjoy the experience they're getting when they open up a James Patterson branded thing. And I think that is harder than people realize to do. And I think if Mr. Beast is being smart about this and he's willing to give up some of the Top end to raise the floor of the quality of the reading experience. I think that's a smart trade off because I think it's a lot harder. We've seen this like Millie, Bobby Brown and some other people that want to do their own. They hide their own ghostwriters, they work with some people. People mostly those books don't really do very well. Yeah, but Patterson books, people read them and they come back for more.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

If you're on Mr. Beast's team and he wants to do a book thing and you're looking for somebody to partner with James Patterson.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Plug and play. Yeah, right.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

It's the only available Plug and play. Like there's no one else at the James Patterson ish level like Nora. We don't have a Nora Roberts and Book Factory.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Louise Penny didn't what she did with Hillary Rodham Clinton like that.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, but she's, nobody else has the, this like factory going on.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Well, we haven't seen other Louis Penny tinips which maybe tell you something about how that one went, I think, I.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Mean that one came about because like they're buds.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Right?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

You know.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Right, right. Network effect. Speaking of things that we haven't seen more of or will not see more of, NaNoWriMo has officially folded up. Shot after a series of, you know, screw ups that I think we kind of thought. I, I, I guess here's what I'm trying to say. Say I kind of thought it was already done. And when I saw this headline I was like, oh, okay, it's not a fish, it's not Facebook official as we used to say 15 years ago.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I, I've seen like a little of the discourse around this. Wants to claim that NaNoWriMo is shutting down because of the missteps that they made last year where they were endorsing use of AI for various elements of participating in the competition or in, you know, it's National Novel Writing Month. And they were basically saying you can use AI and if you don't or if you're anti AI, that's ableist in some way. And also the whole thing was sponsored by an AI company. Like it was a perfect storm. It's a, it's a nonprofit. It's been run as a nonprofit on the Internet for like 15 or 20 years. It is hard to run a nonprofit and it is from an older time on the Internet. And you know, the spokesperson said to this to the TechCrunch reporter that too many members of a very large, very engaged community let themselves believe the service to be provided was Free and like they wanted to participate without supporting the existence of NaNoWriMo financially. This is maybe also a sign that NaNoWriMo grew itself into a bigger people operation than the Internet could really willingly was ready to support. Like there's a supply demand question I think happening there. But NaNoWriMo will be no more. And they are insistent that this is a result of like years long running problems. They had, you know, a very bad PR moment with the AI stuff stuff last year. But I don't think it's a reasonable assumption to think that the whole thing is shut down over that or even that that got enough attention in the broader Internet community to have put a sour taste in enough folks mouths to like stop participating. It wasn't Everybody stopped doing NaNoWriMo and they're shut down. It's NaNoWriMo needs money and doesn't have it.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, I think it might be a little of column A and column B where you're running close enough to the red line and then you have have a huge PR problem. And if, even if you lose 8% of your paying members, if you're having trouble already, that could be the thing.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Sure.

[Jeff O'Neill]

That tips you over. My top level diagnosis here is that the, the mode of the Internet that NaNoWriMo grew out of is gone.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Very different. Yeah, they launched in 1999. Yeah, like that's just a completely different version of online connectivity and community.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Another, you know, I don't know what their sort of short form video strategy were if, if they were anything but even stuff like Jamie Attenberg's a thousand words of Summer or whatever. Probably took probably some people moved over there, you know.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, probably like. Right. Started on Twitter, moved over to substack.

[Jeff O'Neill]

That's. And when you're. And when you're already hurting, it can be death by nine smaller cuts rather than one big thing. I. I can't. If we a B. Tested the universe and they didn't have the AI generated problem, are they existing today? Maybe, maybe not. But it can have helped. Can't have helped when you're already hurting. All right, we're on the frontless way. Brought to you by Thriftbooks. Oh man. New and used titles at Thrift Books. An endless selection. Okay, it's not de facto endless, but you know, it's kind of for our limited lives on this mortal coil, it's de facto endless. You can get all kinds of stuff. Childhood classics, undiscovered worlds of adventures, anything that you can find. And for every budget it. And with the Thriftbooks reading rewards Program, you get points towards a free book. Read more, spend [e-mail]. all right, Rebecca, here's your final guess. How many books do you think I read during my trip to?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

How many actual beach days were there?

[Jeff O'Neill]

What do you. We were there for six full days.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Okay. Six full days. And you don't read on the plane because you watch. I do need to know what the, I assume, deranged movie lineup was.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I didn't watch. I didn't watch movies on the way back. I was just listening to. Not. I was listening to podcasts, actually. We had some travel snafus. And anyway, it wasn't okay. It wasn't amazing.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I'm gonna guess that you read five books.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I read zero books. Vacation weekend. I was reading magazines.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

That's wonderful.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Dominoes. We were watching movies. Just didn't really have. The kids would stay up later and they get up or like, there was less time with this vacation was just me and the sun. You know, we didn't spend. So our travel day, when we go to the beach places looks like this. We go out really pretty early in the morning, as soon as the sun is, like, in the sky, and snorkel for a few hours. We'll drive someplace at a new spot, and we come back for the heat of the day. I was taking naps, making lunches. You know, we're talking reading magazines. And then we go out for the. The best part of the day to me, which is like 5 to 6:30 when the sun sets, and, you know, we're boogie boarding and just splashing around. Then it's, you know, let's come back, take showers, make dinner. We're ready to watch a movie as a family. That's bedtime.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

That sounds amazing.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

This is a great plan.

[Jeff O'Neill]

My kids read a ton of books, I think, while I was reading magazines just staring into space or, you know, making lunches and stuff.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

And Michelle and I were basking.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Do the other things they. So I'll do their frontless voyage for. For them here. Ames read Sunrise at the Reaping the new Games and said it was terrific.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Okay. Love to hear that.

[Jeff O'Neill]

For him, the nut of the story is that it's Haymitch's backstory. His Hunger Games aims that it's more brutal and heartbreaking even than the originals, which is saying so.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Wow. I trust Ames's take at this point.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah. And he read another book called Zero Stars Do Not Recommend. That was actually recommended to us at the Powell's live event. He said it was very good. It's about. It looks like a comedy, commercial fiction. He says it's like satire, but the sun sort of winks out of existence and it says the earth slowly goes cold. But it's funny. I'm. I. I don't know that he or I have the language to talk about what that book is actually doing, but he really enjoyed that. Rowan did every. Everything I Never Told you'd by Celeste Ng, as I think I mentioned before that she also got from the palace and she did Beauty Land. And then she read this is a series of middle grade into young adult sort of horror thrillers. The first one's called Small Spaces. There's a series of them. And she did like, three more of those all in a row. And then some audiobooks, too. So that's what we did. I got nothing. I did. I read nothing. I'm behind. Well, I'm always behind. But I've got some things I really do want to do. Get this, this year that I wanted to get to, but I didn't. But such is life. And I don't feel bad about it.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

No, that's wonderful. Like, often when I'm traveling, the only times I read are, like, on the plane. And then once I get where I'm going, you're just in the thing. You're having experiences. I think this is real life in three dimensions.

[Jeff O'Neill]

That's right.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Stuff you want to be.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I did watch Dunkirk on the plane, which Michelle thought was insane behavior.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

You do make some choices with your movie selections on plane.

[Jeff O'Neill]

He's like, what do you. That's wild stuff.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I thought about you a couple times. I just. It's late and Jeff's probably on a plane and I.

[Jeff O'Neill]

When am I going to throw on Dunkirk at home? No one's going to watch with me.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah. No one's ever casually, like, you know, this feels like a Dunkirk kind of night. Like, yeah. Our default at home is Margin Call. Like, you want to just watch Margin Call tonight, but, like, it's a different vibe than Dunkirk.

[Jeff O'Neill]

And I watched something else on the play on the way there. I cannot remember what is. For the life of me, I. I wrote it down on my list, but I'm not going over there. What have you been reading Bad News for?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

For whatever that movie was. So I read Harriet Tubman Live in Crime. You told me about this by Bob the Drag Queen. I'm gonna do a thing we don't normally do with debut novels here because Bob the Drag Queen is doing just fine. She is having a great career and my Negative review is not going to impact her life. I did not like. It didn't work for you. It didn't work for me. So the setup, if you have not heard about this, is that figures from history have come back in something like, in an event that is referred to as the Return. And Harriet Tubman is among them, along with some of the enslaved people that she helped save on the Underground Railroad. She wants to make an album to spread her message, and she taps our main character, Darnell, to produce it. Several years passed. Darnell was outed on a BET talk show, and it tanked his career. At the time, this was like, in the early 2000s, prior to working in the music industry. He had been out, so he had some experience as an out queer person, and then went back functionally back into the closet and trying to. To rebuild his career. So Harriet Tubman asks him to help produce her record, and he gets to go, like, hang out in a warehouse with Harriet Tubman and a bunch of folks as she tells her story. And he's going to write the raps that she's going to perform that will do all of these things. The rap lyrics that Bob the Drag Queen imagines for Harriet Tubman's life story are incredible. Like, those are a treat. They were really fun for me. They were the best part of the book. But. But the rest of the book, to me, kind of veered into, like, after school special kind of zone. Like, Darnell, for a person who's been queer for decades and was out in the gay community, knows like, shockingly little about queer history or culture or community. Seems like, very surprised about a lot of things. And it sort of turns out I'm going to spoil things now. So, like, stop listening if you are still going to read this book. Book sort of turns out that Harriet Tubman's whole mission working with Darnell is to save Darnell and to help him get free from his past. Not necessarily this bigger thing that she's been talking about. The story just felt too small to me. And the most interesting bit is this, like, these historical figures have returned, and it's known, and people talk about it as the return, but we don't know anything else about it. Like, the only other thing you know about the Return is that, like, Cleopatra also came back and she's working as an influencer. And I wanted, like, more of what this world is like that they're all living in. It just felt kind of pat and messagey that. And I was. I was bummed. I was bummed about that one.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Okay, well, sometimes things don't work.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, sometimes they don't work, but a really fun idea. And then I also.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I was gonna say, also, writing books is hard. Maybe this is going back to Mr. Beast Patterson thing. The reason that you team up with James Patterson is that writing books is.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Actually harder than people writing books is hard. And it made me think about also what Tracy from the Stacks was saying when she was here and was talking about. Often a lot of black debut authors or debut authors of color don't get edited as tightly as they might need to be. I don't know who Bob the Drag Queen's editor was, but in a conversation with some book riot folks, you know, offline, this was also floated by one of them as a. Like, maybe, like. It certainly felt to me like there needed to be more. A tighter editing and more critique going into how that book was produced.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, interesting.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, that was a real bummer. I was really excited about that one. And then I read Stop Me if youf've Heard this One by Kristin Arnett, which was also among my most anticipated of the season. And it was great. Kristen Arnett is consistently really funny. Her books are always set in Florida. She lives in Florida. She's very devoted to Florida. I don't think she's going to move to Portland like everyone else who is apparently Defective.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Vandermeer. And I mean, Vandermeer and Russell True from Florida.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

But this one felt like a step up to me. It's about a woman named Cherry who works as a clown. Or like, her dream is to be a clown. This is her. Her form of art and performance that she wants to make her life around. She works at an aquarium store to make ends meet. And like, the cast of characters at the aquarium store is hilarious. And Cherry is basically having a quarter life crisis. Like, the opening scene of the book is that she has gone to perform at a kid's birthday party. And it turns out that kid's mom is really into clowns. And maybe she's like, doing it with the kid's mom in the bathroom at the birthday party.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Okay.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

And that's. And she's like, I know my life is a mess. This is the kind of thing I do. Like, you know, you're wondering how I got here. Kind of scorpion, stainless mess is gonna mess, right? But she's trying to figure out, like, how is she going to be able. Is she going to be able to, like, make her life in clowning and build her life around art in the way that she wants to also she's a queer woman in Florida and that's not easy. So there's, you know, it's inflected with that experience with the disappearance of a lot of queer spaces in Orlando where she lives and sort of with a general like, like malaise. Cherry is not doing well. She's not happy. But then she meets this woman named Margot who is a well known magician in Orlando. She's a little older and Cherry thinks that both her romantic and professional prospects like might be turning around with Margot. But can she keep that straight or is she going to make a mess of it as well? It's oh, and she's still grieving the death of her brother from several years ago. So like things are just, Cherry's just in a hard spot. You don't, I don't think you want to be friends with Cherry, but you're happy to hear her story from a distance. Really funny. Seems like she would be a good hang. The book is really funny but also like really poignant and thoughtful. The sentences are I felt like sharper than Arnett's first few books and I really liked her first couple. So I felt like this was just the thing. I was waiting like a new trick. I was waiting to see her pull out and she did it. And it's overtly about making art. You know, like Cherry thinks about her clowning as making art. And so you can kind of infer in there the way that Arnett is thinking about or wrestling with some of the challenges of being a writer.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Interesting.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Okay, that was a good one.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Well, with that, that's our show this week. You can find the show [e-mail] listen send us an email podcastookriot.com check out first edition over there. Consider joining the Patreon and also send us your mom's dads and grads recommendation requests. Remember, you don't need to be a mom, dad or a grad or you don't even need to have a recommendation for this is just a general. This is just a. This is a bushw. You put your recommendation the bushel could be for anyone, could be for you, could be for John the Baptist. That would be an interesting ask.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

This time of year is Moms, dads and grads. But yeah, if you want a book recommended for yourself, we'll be happy to hook you up as well.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Just like how mattress stores have like President's Day sales. This is no, I don't know why we do that. It's just like we need a reason to have a sale. We have a reason to have a recommendation request show.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

We do this at the winter holidays. We do it at Mom's dads and grads.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Is there another time of year we should consider? Consider? Oh, what else is there? Summertime, I guess. Is this a sort of de facto like.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, we'll give you a summer reading rec now if you want one.

[Jeff O'Neill]

You know, something like that, I guess. Back to school maybe. I don't even know. People are going to be reading anyway. This is fine. We don't need to add stuff. We gotta. We figured this out.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

We got enough to do. Jeff.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Optimally deployed. All right. Thanks everybody. Thanks, Rebecca.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Thanks so much for listening today. We hope you'll enjoy this excerpt from the audiobook edition of the Gods Time Forgot by Kelsey Sheridan Gonzalez. Thanks again to our sponsors at Alcove Press and Spotify.

[Ann]

She wondered what this hole looked like to people not in it. Would they even notice it in the ground? Or would they walk right past her body as she lay rotting with her feet feet dangling above the cave she'd tried to crawl out of? No, she wouldn't let that happen, she told herself. Buried and forgotten was not to be her fate. Her hands clawed at the dirt while she shimmied herself upward with her knees, her elbows chafing against the soil that enclosed her. She pulled and pushed until finally the pressure on her chest started to lift. The dirt and gravel loosened beneath her. She was almost out. One last desperate pull and she was free. Gasping for the air she'd recently taken for granted, she rolled onto the grass and faced the darkening sky. How did she end up here? She turned her head to glance at the triangular hole she'd just crawled out from and the mound of grass above it. From the outside, one would never suspect a massive cave rested beneath. She hadn't a clue what would have prompted her to enter such a thing. Her body still trembling from the exertion, she sat up, her shaking hands as dirty and bloodied as her tattered dress. While her breathing steadied, she took in more of her surroundings. The forest around her was lush and thriving. A creek cut through the trees. Upon seeing the water, her throat burned with need. She rose to her feet, shuffling to where the creek had pooled. Backed up against the rock, the water was still a perfect mirror image of the woods around her. It called to her, offering to quench her thirst and cleanse her soul. She knelt before it, cupping the cool water with her hands and lifting it to her lips. At the same moment, an image flooded her mind My darling sister. Ever the fool, she looked up to find who had spoken. Have you no sense of self? No respect for our sisterhood? Languid. The sable haired woman lay against the rocks, letting her fingers dance in the water. The fairer woman frowned upon hearing the harsh words, but did not offer rebuttal, nor speak up in her defense. She took another sip, the image of the women still clear in her mind. They were draped in long, flowing gowns, belted at the waist, sitting by the water. And she was one of them. The water trickled down her chin and the length of her arms as the forest came back into focus. She sat back on her knees, looking around her, noting the similarities of the world she saw now and the one she saw in her mind. The pool of water was the same, but the fauna was different. The trees here were taller, the brush thicker, but still so eerily similar. Thinking about the sisterhood the woman had mentioned, she dipped her hands in the water once more. She didn't know of any sisterhood. At least she couldn't remember one. No. You cannot touch the water. It's cursed. A woman shouted at her, the same voice she heard calling for Emma. She turned to find a petite woman with a pallid complexion, wearing a terrified look in a drab gown much different than the garments of the women she had seen in her mind's eye. Oh, Emma. Relief washed over the woman's face as she ran toward her. You're all right. She let out a deep breath. What happened? What are you wearing? I'm not Emma. She shook her head, though she wasn't sure. She wasn't sure about anything. Concern filled the woman's eyes. It's all right now. Just come with me. She took a small step forward with her hands out, speaking the way one would to a frightened child. The sound of men's voices carried through the trees as they crashed through the underbrush. Emma Harrington. They yelled. Where are you, Emma? She went rigid at the sound of their menacing shouts. She's over here. The woman called. There was chaos in the trees, snapping branches, grunting and panting. They were coming for her.