NetGalley Launches Booktrovert Consumer Marketing Platform, BookTok's Obsession with Marginalia, and More

Summary

Book Riot - The Podcast: NetGalley Launches Booktrovert Consumer Marketing Platform, BookTok's Obsession with Marginalia, and More
Release Date: June 30, 2025

Hosts: Rebecca Schinsky and Danica Ellis
Episode Overview: In this episode, Rebecca Schinsky and Danica Ellis delve into several pressing topics in the publishing world, including NetGalley's new consumer marketing platform Booktrovert, the rising trend of marginalia on BookTok, Sarah J. Maas’s significant licensing deal, and a noteworthy federal lawsuit involving AI and copyright infringement. The hosts also share their favorite queer books of 2025, providing listeners with insightful recommendations.

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1. NetGalley Launches Booktrovert

Key Discussion Points:

• Introduction to NetGalley and Edelweiss: Rebecca and Danica begin by clarifying what NetGalley is—a platform primarily for book influencers, professional booksellers, librarians, and reviewers to access pre-publication ebooks for reviews and promotions. Edelweiss serves a similar purpose but is more focused on the internal industry needs, such as bookstore buyers.

• Booktrovert Overview: NetGalley’s parent company, Firebrand, has introduced Booktrovert, aimed at addressing publishers' needs for more effective consumer marketing tools. Designed as a consumer-facing platform, Booktrovert offers ebook giveaways, interactive games like bookish bingo, and Goodreads-style shelf-building features.

• Critique and Skepticism: Danica expresses skepticism about the platform’s effectiveness, highlighting that it seems primarily focused on advertising and giveaways without offering substantial new features beyond existing platforms like Goodreads or StoryGraph. She remarks, “It just feels like, hello, will you sign up so that we can advertise to you?” [09:44].

• Publishers’ Intent vs. User Experience: Rebecca criticizes the separation between NetGalley and Booktrovert, noting that influencers—who are key to Booktrovert’s success—are not being incorporated into NetGalley’s professional community. She states, “They are very intentionally keeping NetGalley separate... we have seen that influencers are professionals” [12:12].

Notable Quotes:

• Rebecca: “This looks like a book discoverability solution from 2007 to me.” [10:34]
• Danica: “It just does not seem very robust.” [08:34]

Conclusion: The hosts conclude that while Booktrovert aims to provide publishers with new marketing avenues, its current implementation may lack the necessary features and integration to truly engage consumers and influencers effectively.

2. Sarah J. Maas’s Exclusive Licensing Deal

Key Discussion Points:

• Deal Details: Sarah J. Maas, renowned for her "A Court of Thorns and Roses" (ACOTAR) series, has signed a multi-year exclusive licensing deal with IMG Licensing. This agreement grants IMG access to her entire fictional universe, aiming to expand into various merchandise categories such as apparel, home decor, wine and spirits, collectibles, and immersive fan experiences.

• Unprecedented Scope for an Adult-Focused Author: Unlike typical licensing deals seen with franchises like Harry Potter or Star Wars, Maas’s agreement is unusual for an adult-oriented series. Rebecca notes, “We don’t usually see authors whose books are aimed at primarily adult audiences get this kind of licensing deal” [23:20].

• Timing and Adaptations: The timing of the deal raises questions, especially since previous adaptation efforts (e.g., Hulu’s attempt) were canceled. Danica points out the unusual sequence, “It's strange to me that it's been so slow” [24:04].

Notable Quotes:

• Rebecca: “This makes a ton of sense to me.” [23:20]
• Danica: “It's really not the way, you know, the Hunger Games or something like that.” [25:25]

Conclusion: The licensing deal signifies a major milestone for Maas and highlights the evolving landscape of author merchandising, even for adult fantasy series. The hosts express curiosity about the motivations and future implications of this agreement.

3. BookTok’s Obsession with Marginalia

Key Discussion Points:

• Rise of Marginalia on BookTok: The hosts explore how the trend of annotating books—writing notes, highlighting passages, and using colored tabs—has gained immense popularity on TikTok’s BookTok community. This aesthetic has led to the availability of themed annotation kits on platforms like Etsy.

• Benefits of Annotating: Danica shares her surprise at the trend, reflecting on her personal aversion to writing in books from her time as a used bookstore employee. Rebecca, however, discusses how annotating enhances engagement with the text, making reading a more interactive experience.

• Creative Expression and Community Building: The trend fosters creativity and connection among readers. Rebecca mentions, “This is just fascinating to me and it makes me wonder, like, what is the next component of bookish culture that BookTok will figure out” [38:25].

Notable Quotes:

• Danica: “I have such an inability to write in books.” [30:22]
• Rebecca: “I'm an OG book annotator.” [32:03]

Conclusion: Marginalia has transcended its traditional roots to become a visual and interactive trend within the BookTok community, enhancing reader engagement and fostering a sense of community through shared aesthetic practices.

4. Federal Lawsuit Against Anthropic Over AI Training Data

Key Discussion Points:

• Case Summary: A federal court judge ruled in favor of Anthropic in a lawsuit filed by a group of authors alleging that Anthropic illegally used their books to train the Claude large language model. The judge determined that using legally acquired books for training AI models falls under fair use, but royalty-free datasets containing pirated copies violate copyright laws.

• Implications for the Publishing Industry: The ruling presents a mixed outcome. While it permits the use of legally obtained materials, it highlights the illegality of using pirated content. Rebecca emphasizes the need for clear regulations, stating, “There are so many more cases that need to make their ways through the courts before we have anything that looks like real settled law about this” [44:11].

• Future Outlook: The hosts anticipate further legal battles and the likelihood that the Supreme Court will eventually need to address these issues to provide definitive clarity.

Notable Quotes:

• Rebecca: “This is discouraging to see a judge say your copyrighted material can be used without your permission as long as they buy a copy” [43:19].
• Danica: “Feels like doing something illegal is already illegal. But here we are.” [43:19].

Conclusion: The lawsuit underscores the ongoing tension between AI advancements and copyright laws, signaling the necessity for updated legislation to address the challenges posed by AI training methodologies.

5. Favorite Queer Books of 2025

Key Discussion Points:

• Top Picks: Danica highlights two standout queer books of the year:

  • Atmosphere by Taylor Jenkins Reid
  • Barrier Bones in the Midnight Soil by V.E. Schwab

• Additional Recommendations: She also mentions The Emperor of Gladness by Ocean Vuong and An Oral History of Trans Non Binary Genderqueer and Two Spirit People of Color by Carol Robertis, expressing interest in its audiobook format.

• Personal Favorites:

  • Sympathy for Wild Girls by Deborah McGee: A collection of short stories centered on queer Black women, praised for its depth and emotional resonance.
  • Awakened by Osworth: A "romantasy" featuring trans witches battling an evil AI, noted for its unique narrative voice and playful language.
  • The Ten Incarnations of Rebellion by Vaishnavia Patel: An alternate history novel exploring the complexities of rebellion and moral dilemmas in a reimagined India.

Notable Quotes:

• Danica: “I would love to have studied in a class because I feel like there's so much packed into them.” [47:23]
• Rebecca: “That was so much fun to read and to talk about with you and Vanessa.” [51:52]

Conclusion: The hosts celebrate a diverse range of queer literature released in 2025, highlighting both mainstream successes and hidden gems that offer profound narratives and rich representation.

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Final Thoughts: Rebecca Schinsky and Danica Ellis provide a comprehensive and insightful discussion on current trends and significant developments in the publishing industry. From critically examining new platforms like Booktrovert to celebrating impactful queer literature, the episode offers valuable perspectives for book enthusiasts and industry professionals alike.

Notable Quotes Recap:

• “It just feels like, hello, will you sign up so that we can advertise to you?” – Danica Ellis [09:44]
• “We want the NetGalley community to remain as professional as we can, while the Booktrovert community can be everyone and their mother.” – Christina Radke via Rebecca Schinsky [11:22]

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For More Information:
To dive deeper into the topics discussed or to engage with the hosts, visit Book Riot Podcast or email [e-mail].

Transcript

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I think you're on mute Workday starting.

[Danica Ellis]

To sound the same. I think you're on mute.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Find something that sounds better for your career on LinkedIn.

[Danica Ellis]

With LinkedIn job collections, you can browse curated collections by relevant industries and benefits like Flexpto or hybrid workplaces so you can find the right job for you. Get [e-mail] jobs finding where you fit.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

LinkedIn knows how to With a Venmo Debit card, you can Venmo more than just your friends. You can use your balance in so many ways. You can Venmo everything. Need gas? You can Venmo this. How about snacks? You can Venmo that. Your favorite band's merch? You can Venmo this or their next show? You can Venmo that. Visit Venmo Me Debit to learn more. The Venmo MasterCard is issued by the Bancorp bank and a pursuant to license, my MasterCard International, Inc. Card may be used everywhere. MasterCard is accepted. Venmo purchase restrictions apply. This is the Book Riot Podcast. I'm Rebecca Schinsky and I'm joined this week by Danica Ellis, one of our editors at Book Riot while Jeff is still on vacation. Danica, thank you for overcoming unannounced lawnmowers to be here with me today.

[Danica Ellis]

Thank you for adapting.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

It's a real trial that we go through making podcasts in our homes, right? We are recording this on Wednesday. It's June 25th. Typically we record the show at the end of the day on Thursday, so we thought we were going to have like a little bit less news. It is like mid summer. There's not a whole lot happening in publishing, but there have been a few pretty interesting stories, so we've got plenty to talk about today. Jeff is of course still out. He'll be back next week. We have a little pause happening in bonus content on the Patreon, but if you've been thinking about joining, new Patreon members do get access to the whole catalog of bat content. We've got year worth of bonus material over there so you can check out patreon.com bookriotpodcast if you want to join up. Catch up on the bonus stuff and then we have some really fun new things coming up this fall, so check that out. Danica, I just completely lost my train of thought, so this feels like a good time to take an ad break and then we'll get into the news.

[Danica Ellis]

Sounds good. This episode is brought to you by Slow Burn, an imprint of Xando Projects. Listen, if you love your romance with a side of murder, secrets and slow burning tension. And I know I do. Nightshade by Autumn woods is for you. Set at an elite university tucked deep in the misty Scottish Highlands, the story follows Ophelia Winters as she searches for the truth about her parents deaths. But when a stalker starts closing in, she's forced to trust the last person she wants to, Alex Corbo Green, the son of her prime suspect. With its heat, haunting setting and cliffhanger ending, Nightshade is a dark academia dream you won't want to wake up from. So we get a romance full of enemies to lovers tension set in a gothic Scottish castle. Yes please to all of that. Alex and Ophelia are giving grumpy and grumpy with serious he falls first energy. And really this is just a perfect blend of murder mystery, romantic suspense and dark academia vibes. Thank you once again to Slow Burn and imprint of Xando Projects for sponsoring today's show.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Thank for you.

[Danica Ellis]

You can get Nightshade by Autumn woods now. Wherever books are sold, my day kicks off with a refreshing Celsius energy drink. Then straight to the gym, pre K pickup back home to meal prep. Time for my fire station shift. One more Celsius.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Gotta keep the lights on when the three alarm hits.

[Danica Ellis]

I'm ready. Celsius Live Fit. Go grab a cold refreshing Celsius at your local retailer or locate [e-mail].

[Rebecca Schinsky]

You know that feeling when someone shows up for you just when you need it most?

[Danica Ellis]

That's what Uber is all about.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Not just a ride or dinner at your door.

[Danica Ellis]

It's how Uber helps you show up.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

For the moments that matter. Because showing up can turn a tough day around or make a good one even better.

[Danica Ellis]

Whatever it is, big or small, Uber.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Is on the way. So you can be on yours.

[Danica Ellis]

Uber on our way.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Okay, it's a million degrees. Our brains are melting, but we're going to do what we can here. One of the big stories this week is that Netgalley has launched a consumer marketing platform that is called booktrovert. Before we get into booktrovert, Danica, let's refresh the folks on what Netgalley is.

[Danica Ellis]

Yeah, so NetGalley and Edelweiss, I think are the two big websites where if you are a book influencer, professional bookseller, librarian, reviewer, you can request usually ebooks, usually before publication date, with the idea that you are going to review them or promote them in some way. So that's what Netgalley is best known for. I don't know if there's anything else they do.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I think that's basically it. That's my experience with Netgalley is if I'm looking for a book that I want to read for coverage or you know, to have access to before it comes out. NetGalley is one of the primary sources. Edelweiss came first. It like does whole catalogs and I think really serves a sort of inner industry purpose where yeah like bookstore buyers use those catalogs when they're working with their reps. But netgalley seems much more focused on like members of the media, bloggers, booktubers, those kind of folks. So this week they've launched a platform called booktrovert which I did not have on my bingo call of new like bookish company word combinations. So you can see booktrovert.com and they are calling it the answer to the book industry's demand for robust consumer marketing tools. Yeah, so yeah, this is built by NetGalley. The parent company is called Firebrand and the intention here is publishers of course want more ways to reach readers. Discoverability is the perpetual problem and I use problem like halfway in scare quotes because it's really I think about the challenge the publishers have of selling readers the books they want readers to be paying attention to and buying rather than just whatever happens to be popular right now in the Zeitgeist. The Zeitgeist are like on booktok so of course they want a way to control the message but also to not be having to fight with the algorithm or enter the casino of the TikTok algorithm and just cross their fingers and hope that the specific books they're promoting get attention. So how book travert functions and I got myself an account and went through the signup process is primarily for ebook giveaways right now at least. So you sign up. Any reader can sign up. It's a consumer facing thing. You don't have to be member of the publishing industry. You sign up and you land on a page that promises to be like your portal to all things bookish but is really just a list of current and upcoming ebooks that you can enter to get free pre publication copies of. There's also an arcade where currently you can play a bookish bingo game. They're saying that there are other games that will be coming and then there are some Goodreads type tools where you can build a shelf, a collection of books that you can I guess share on social media. There are not currently ways to like follow and friend people. So it's not it's not trying to replace social networks for reading. Like this is really intended to be a marketing platform for publishers, but the public facing parts of it, like the gap between the press release about this in the industry and what the website tells you it is when you're a reader who goes to the website. That's the interesting part. We've talked a little bit about this on company chat. I'm curious about your take on booktrovert.

[Danica Ellis]

Yeah, I was pretty. I mean, I'm skeptical in general of new book apps and I feel like everybody's trying to fix Goodreads, but they often are not exactly what we're looking for. I mean, Goodreads needs to be fixed. Obviously. There's a lot of problems there.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yes.

[Danica Ellis]

But yeah, I think what we talked about at first was just how, especially in this original news story in Publishers Weekly, how much this is about, this is what publishers want and how little is about what readers would get out of this. It really does seem to be just about advertising and giveaways. But even the giveaway part, that's already in something like Goodreads and I think storygraph too, I could be wrong about that, which has many, many more features. And also anyone who has a Bookstagram or some kind of bookish influencer position is going to be on NetGalley and Edelweiss and have access to a lot more ebooks that way. So it's hard for me to think that there's going to be a lot of people interested in creating a whole new account just to enter a few ebooks giveaways. It just does not seem very robust. It feels like, yeah, I think that's.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Accurate and pretty generous, a pretty generous interpretation of it. The baffling thing to me here is that they've gotten like halfway to what I think is a good reading of things. The CEO of Firebrand has said that publishers have been asking for this for a really long time. I totally understand why publishers want this. Marketing is challenging. Competing in the day of the algorithm is challenging. But they have specifically said that they want to reach influencers and those influencers audiences. And booktrovert is a platform that only exists on its website. There's no app version. There's not a lot of social media plugin like it. This looks like a book discoverability solution from 2007 to me.

[Danica Ellis]

Yeah, yeah. Again, I can't think of the user who's going to be looking for this. And it's a very strange concept that you've got NetGalley and that they specifically are not integrating it in any way you could imagine. A kind of book app where once you reach a certain amount of followers or something, you get access to more of these ebooks or an easier way to find the ones to request through NetGalley of kind of merging NetGalley with a bookish social media. But this isn't really either of those.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

That's where I think I. That's the part of this that I really bump on the most and that I have the most criticism of is that they are very intentionally keeping NetGalley separate. Christina Radke, who's the SVP of growth and engagement for both NetGalley and Booktrovert, told Publishers Weekly, quote, We want the NetGalley community to remain as professional as we can, while the booktrovert community can be everyone and their mother. So they want to keep NetGalley for bookish professionals who want and need access to Galley's pre publication and. And they also want to reach influencers and their audiences, but they don't want to bring those influencers into the NetGalley community. I wrote about this for today in books and the thing that I said here is, oh, they have not realized that influencers are professionals.

[Danica Ellis]

Yeah.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Which, yeah, I think is a huge mistake here.

[Danica Ellis]

That's who's using NetGalley. That's because like you were saying, Edelweiss, that's been more of the bookseller librarian kind of existing side of the publishing industry's outreach. And then NetGalley has been much more focused on the new kind of influencer. And it just seems like such an oversight to not take advantage of that. And I mean, the more I look at it, the more it seems like, hello, will you sign up so that we can advertise to you?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

That's exactly what it is.

[Danica Ellis]

Yeah. Which is no one wants to do, I think part of it they're saying publishers have wanted this for a long time because it's very hard to advertise your books and to kind of break out in. I think especially you see authors and publishers saying, I can't really get any purchase on social media. That I know all these things are going viral on TikTok, but I can't seem to do it. And I think a lot of that is because you're advertising and people don't respond to being advertised to in a really blatant way. And this is just more of that except it's completely isolated so there's even less of a chance that it could reach anyone.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah. And you know We've seen versions of this with previous forms of bookish social media. Like when book bloggers were first becoming really big in like 2008, 2010, Edelweiss was just the thing. And publishers didn't want everybody who had a blog to be requesting books on Edelweiss because that is too, too much. It's reasonable. Like that's too much for a publisher to keep up with managing all of those requests. And then NetGalley comes along and I understand that like some of this gatekeeping around, it might be for those same reasons that they don't want everyone with a TikTok account to be requesting books from NetGalley or flooding the system. I think there have to be ways to sort of manage gates in between. Like Libro FM has early reviewer programs that you get approved for specific publishers. And then once a publisher approves you, you have access to every galley that they put. You can do the same whitelisting on NetGalley. So it doesn't have to be like title by title. And you know, after book bloggers it was booktubers and after booktubers it was bookstagrammers and now book talkers. Many of them have much bigger reach than like any traditional or even contemporary like book media platform. Like it is hard to get people to read book coverage on the Internet. And there are influencers getting millions, like hundreds of thousands and millions of views on content about these publishers books. But they're not going to be given access to NetGalley for reasons and especially.

[Danica Ellis]

I think it's one thing when we were mostly dealing in paper arcs, which are expensive to print, they're expensive to ship, but when you're talking about digital galleys, it's approximately free to send them to someone. Like you're already doing all the work of formatting and whatever. The cost of sending another digital arc to one more person doesn't really amount to anything. So I understand that they don't want everyone in the world who wants to read this book to be able to just download a free ebook copy of it. But for sure there is a difference in how much gatekeeping you need to do for a free ebook copy. I do like the system because PRH does the same thing. They have the PRH Audio Influencer app or whatever it's called, where you just get approved. And then once you're on the app, you have access to all of the audiobooks they've ever made, which is amazing. But yeah, then you just have that one initial step instead of title by title, because I think we have. I think everyone on Book Riot has run into a time where you really wanted to promote a book and it would have reached a lot of people and then you just either didn't get approved or didn't get approved in time. I often will get approved after that podcast has already been recorded or without enough time to read it. And that is a shame. I wanted to promote it. Right.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

And like, you know, our platform is valuable. The New York Times book review platform is valuable. There's a lot of great stuff happening on still on booktube and on bookstagram and booktok. But like to get millions of views on a piece of content is a thing that is pretty exclusive to TikTok. That's not really happening in other places. And if publishers are not yet willing to take seriously the people who have figured out how to do that consistently and who do it well and whose audiences trust them and give those people people access to pre publication titles, then like, what are we doing here?

[Danica Ellis]

Yeah, exactly. I think the publishing industry is pretty notorious for being slow to change with the times. And I think we're still in that where it feels like we're maybe five to 10 years behind where we should be for maybe, you know, it's.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I think what I would like for the publishing industry to do is recognize that like TikTok is the latest incarnation of amateurs becoming professional book, you know, not reviewers necessarily, but like people who talk about books in some kind of professional capacity. But we have seen that since web 2.0 and blogging like 15 years ago really became a big thing. Like it. It's not new that people who don't work for newspapers or who aren't book reviewers for like big outlets like that still have audiences and want to talk about books and have potential to really sway what their audiences read. And as you were saying, like the best thing that a publisher can do to increase their chances that their books get covered on any of these platforms is make it easy for the people making content to access those titles and NetGalley, something like that they have this platform would solve that problem. What they're, what they're doing here is introducing more friction for the people that they're trying to get the books in front of by like you're an influencer or you follow a bunch of people on booktok. Now join this platform. Enter to win a giveaway. Cross your fingers and hope you get a copy.

[Danica Ellis]

Yeah, and I, when I, I didn't do the full signing up, but just from clicking around, you know, one of the tabs is find and it has giveaways. But then it also just says, buy. Buy our night, Our bones in the midnight soil. Seven days left. What do you mean? I have seven days left to buy this book. And then when I actually click it, like it doesn't say anything about a deal or it just says seven days left to buy this book. And then it gives you some links to buy it. Like what?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

So they are using. It does note in this publisher's Weekly piece by Ed Nowotka that they're using NetGalley's ebook distribution technology to distribute the giveaways and pre orders and purchase links. And then you can order physical books as well through Amazon, Barnes and noble and bookshop.org, you can buy audiobooks through audiobooks.com, libro fm and kobo as well. But like seven days left is a weird message there.

[Danica Ellis]

Yeah. And it's a weird mix of things going on. It's not trying to do a lot of things. So it's strange that it would be so muddled.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

It does feel muddled. There's a, like, track you're reading can put in what you're reading now or what you want to be reading. But again and again, there's no, like real social component of the website. The build a shelf page says, like, build a shelf of books to share proudly on social media. It's just this feels muddled to me. And I think your original question of like, this is, sure, this is an answer to what publishers have been asking for, but it makes me think that publishers are asking the wrong questions or that the people building the solutions are asking the wrong questions. And that real consideration of like, like what the people that you're targeting want to interact with seems to have gone by the wayside. Like, I'm sure this was expensive and took a long time to develop, but like, did anybody talk to the top 20 or not even the top, but like to 20 big bookish influencers and ask them, is this a thing you'll use?

[Danica Ellis]

Right. Especially to not have an app. I feel like app first is almost the default now. And especially the sort of layout and everything makes it look like it's an app that's been kind of translated into a website.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Very interesting. Yeah. It adjusts itself nicely to mobile, but you do have to still navigate to booktrovert.com on your phone or if you're using your phone to make a TikTok, you still have to go to booktrovert.com you can't pull up the app. There's no real connection. I looked at Booktrovert's TikTok account and it was all just like promotional content about BookTrovert Countdowns to BookTrovert launching and pretty low view counts, which indicates to me that they have not been putting money behind boosting those videos on TikTok to get them audience. So I'm just not sure that this is actually going to reach the people that the publishers want and frankly need to be reaching.

[Danica Ellis]

Yeah, it's too bad that.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Let's talk about Sarah J. Maas though, because she's making good decisions. She is of course the author of acotar. She signed a huge multi year like exclusive and comprehensive licensing deal this week. We don't have information about like what the financials of it will be, but IMG licensing will get access to her entire fictional universe to quote, create new touch points for her fervid fan base. And here touch points is code for things to sell you. But we're talking like every category of things that can be sold. Apparel, beauty, lifestyle, home, decor, wine and spirits. Alcohol. Wine and spirits are alcohol, food and beverage, toys, games, collectibles, cosplay and immersive fan experiences. So maybe we'll get like, like a real glow up version of the romantasy balls that people have been attending and like some of them unfortunately turn into the fyre fest.

[Danica Ellis]

Right.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

But it's really interesting to see. This makes a ton of sense to me. Like these books have sold incredibly well. It's like more than 70 million copies in English of all of her books worldwide and they've been translated into 38 languages. What makes this unusual is we don't usually see authors whose books are aimed at primarily adult audiences get this kind of licensing deal. You see this with things that are geared towards kids and families like Harry Potter, the Hunger Games, of course, like Star Wars, Lord of the Rings. But I couldn't think of an adult facing author like Acotar is. Adult books that I've seen have a deal like this. Have you seen anybody do it?

[Danica Ellis]

I haven't. But what I find more strange is that we're getting this before we're getting an adaptation. Like the cause there was supposed to be an adaptation and then it got canceled, I think.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yes. Yeah, Hulu had it and it kept like there were I think behind the scenes shenanigans but apparently the rights have reverted to her and so she's going to be shopping it again.

[Danica Ellis]

Yeah, to me it feels like we should have gotten an adaptation far before this because Sarah J. Maas is still hugely popular, but I feel like we're past peak popularity. I think there was a time when they were even more popular. They've been popular for many years now. And it's strange to me that it's been so slow. I guess there are specific circumstances with that adaptation and then. Yeah. To have it be that we're gonna get officially licensed home decor and immersive fan experiences before we get a TV show or a movie is really not the way, you know, the Hunger Games or something like that. They have a lot of merch associated with them. But after the movies it wasn't. Yeah.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

You know, I hadn't thought about that. But you're right. Like usually you get the big book series and then the audience grows by an order of magnitude when the adaptation comes out. And that's when they go for licensing.

[Danica Ellis]

And that's usually what they're tying into because you have actual visuals that you can make into merch. It's a lot harder. I think even a Sarah J. Maas, casual fan wouldn't necessarily recognize Merch in the Wild unless it has a very specific quote or something on it. Because unlike when there are movies, you don't have those visuals as closely associated with the story unless it's just based on the covers. I don't really know how to.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, that's a great question. I don't know what it's going to be. I'm sure that there will be like wine for your book club and your Sarah J. Maas situation. Home decor is interesting. Like Etsy is full of unauthorized.

[Danica Ellis]

It's true.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Fan created swag basically for Acotar for the Colleen Hoover books. There's a bunch of licensed Rebecca Yarrow stuff out of print. Has some. But there's also a lot of unlicensed 4th grade stuff out there. And this is. The longer I look at this, the more I'm just nodding my head with you. Like, this is weird timing for this. I wonder what's happened behind the scenes. Presumably she's been approached for. You would think she'd been approached for licensing sooner than this. So I'd wonder about what's going on with the timeline because these books, it's been a year at least that these have been a big story.

[Danica Ellis]

Yeah. Because I think we are 10 years past a Court of Thorns and Roses. It was published 10 years ago and then she was doing the Throne of Glass series before that. And it's been popular as far as I remember, basically since the beginning. It's not like it just exploded in popularity. So again, this is like the publishing industry being weirdly slow to take advantage of things. Like how how many decades do you need to be popular before they're like, maybe people will buy things associated with it.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, who knows? I mean, I guess I'd be interested in hearing from listeners. I know we have ACOTAR fans in the audience of like, are you set already for your ACOTAR stuff if you want any? Or will you be looking out for Sarah J. Maas swag when it comes out? Is somebody gonna go to a big ACOTAR ball? Like, I know the I think the final book is still there's she's working on something. Maybe that's the next series that she's working on. But there will be more Sarah J. Maas books, so more opportunities for things. But that universe does seem very valuable. You can shoot us an email podcastookriot.com if you're in on this, or if you have thoughts or if you have any intel and you want to be a little birdie. What's going on with Sarah J. Maas? We will keep your information confidential unless you tell us that we can talk about who you are. All right, let's take our next break and then we'll keep going with the news.

[Danica Ellis]

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[Rebecca Schinsky]

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[Danica Ellis]

Yeah, I. I have gotten off of TikTok because.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Because you were too fluent.

[Danica Ellis]

Yeah. But what I find weird about this is that this has been true for years now. Like, this has been a. A thing on TikTok for quite a while because I found it very surprising at the time. I have such a personal bias because I worked at a used bookstore for a long time, and if there was any writing or highlighting in a book, it had to be a very good book before it was worth taking at that point. So I have such an inability to write in books. Even when I was going to school as an English major, I would not write any books.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Really?

[Danica Ellis]

Yeah. I can't do it.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Fascinating.

[Danica Ellis]

So it's surprising to me. It's become a real aesthetic around annotation on Booktok, where you can go on Etsy and buy sets for annotation, where it'll have matching highlighters, pens, little colored tabs all in a theme, and you might match it to the COVID And people are really intense about it. They are writing on every page and huge amounts of tabs. Intellectually, I know, first of all, it's not harming anything.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

We're not curious about that.

[Danica Ellis]

Second of all, it just means that you're engaging with the book more. You're paying more attention. Even if you're just writing down like, I liked this, or like, cute or whatever, you are engaging with the text. You're paying attention. You're making sure that your mind isn't wandering. So I think it's a good thing. I think it's probably more likely to have gone viral because it's so visual. It's such a. Interesting thing to look at, to flip through your little annotated book.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

But, yeah, I think that's the interesting thing about it to me as well, is I'm an OG book annotator. I've talked on the show about how I tend to. If I'm reading in print, I tend to read with a pen in my hand. If I'm reading something that Jeff and I are going to book club on the show, I'm definitely reading it in print and with a pen in my hand because I will mark things and make little notes. Or if, like, if I'm trying to track, like, complicated, twisty Timelines. I will draw myself a little chart on, like, one of the blank pages at the back of the book or kind of keep track of things. Like, I share your. Like, I. I don't care what people do with the books that they own. And certainly, like, we don't think that books are sacred objects. You can't do anything to here. Yes, but annotating is such a utilitarian thing to me. It's like, I want to make sure that I don't forget this quote or this seems important and I might want to come back to it later, that kind of thing. That I think I should. We should probably all just start to expect that book talkers are creative and they will find a way to make any part of the reading life, the reading experience, into something aesthetic. But it just had not occurred to me that it could be done this way. Or the lengths that people are going to. There are folks who are assigning a different colored highlighter to each character in a novel and then highlighting the corresponding characters. Every single line of dialogue in those colors. And I have a little. Like, for what? Like, are you ever gonna go back and do that? Or does it. Does it just look pretty? And then also, as you were saying, even if it's just because it looks pretty, it's your book. Like, go to town. Yeah, but I. I just don't quite. I don't quite get doing it just as an aesthetic thing, I think, because my relationship to it is so, like, I'm taking notes because I need them.

[Danica Ellis]

Yeah, well, and I think the thing is that people use it for a lot of different purposes. So I think it can be a little bit confusing to look at it in the abstract because some people are doing it so that they can go back and reread it and see how they were thinking about it the first time around. Some people are doing it to refer. Some people just like referring back to specific scenes, like if they tab the ones that made them cry or that they made them really happy or whatever, they can go back and just reread those scenes. And some people are doing it for reviewing purposes or something they want to mention in their review. I think it can be used a lot of different ways. It is fascinating to me because it's so unlike how I read that it feels hard for me to wrap my head around. I do take notes as I read, but I take notes, notes in my phone. Like, I have a little. Or, I mean, I do. If it's an ebook, I'm highlighting notes, but not in the Physical book. One of the first things I wrote for Book Riot was my books will outlive me. And it was about reading as a used bookseller and how I think about books as traveling through many sets of hands. So I don't want to claim it as my own. Like, obviously you can because you bought it. But I like to think of many other people getting to read that book after me.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, I love that idea. We have, like, duplicate copies of a lot of books in our house because Bob is more of the Danica style of reader. Like, thou shalt not write anything on my pages. And I am definitely marking stuff up. Or I at least want to know that I can. Yeah, we have, like, duplicates of. Of anything we both read in college. Both copies survived the merging of the bookshelf.

[Danica Ellis]

Yeah. One thing I think is so cute that people do with annotated books is that they will do a bunch of people reacting to the same book. So you'll go through and annotate it with one color of pen, and then you pass it to your friend and pass it on, and someone did it as a birthday present for their friend where they all read her favorite book and they all wrote their notes in it.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

That's really cute.

[Danica Ellis]

Very cute.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah.

[Danica Ellis]

And would be really cool to like. It's like a book club discussion of the entire book, you know?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, I've done that. Or I've had that experience with my, like, with past versions of myself. For something you were mentioning previously. Like, some people are doing this so they can take notes and then go back later and see how a different version of themselves read it. Like my copy of Sula by Toni Morrison from college. I think I've read, like, half a dozen times, and I'm running out of different colors of ink to use when I read it. It, like, now I don't know which color of ink corresponds to which time, but I can see that, like, oh, that was important to me last time. And I had the same urge this time to mark it. Or I wonder why I underlined that back in the day. It's interesting. And I've gotten to the point where I think I have to start with a fresh copy.

[Danica Ellis]

Yeah. It is so much old ink. Interesting when you have reviews or annotations from your earlier reads to see just how differently you read things over time. Because sometimes I'll look back at old reviews that I wrote and I'll be like, I don't know who you are, where that's coming from. You can read exactly the same book. I think you could read the same book probably months later and have a different experience. It's probably contextual to, you know, not only where you are in your life, but also just your mood and what you're thinking about.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

There's probably somebody somewhere working on like a master's thesis with this, where they're like, we've revisited the same students once a quarter for the last five years, compared their annotations. Yeah, it would be super interesting. Yeah. So, folks, you can check out that link. All of the stuff we talk about in the show will be in the show notes. But this marginalia, like, this is just fascinating to me and it makes me wonder, like, what. What is the next component of bookish culture that booktok will figure out a way to turn into something that's aesthetically pleasing and a form of connection? Like that. It wasn't just I've highlighted some stuff, but that they've, like, these users are so creative and have found such ways to like, turn this use use of books as aesthetic tools also into a form of talking about and connecting over books. Like, the folks they interview in this Guardian piece are saying, like, this helps me read more deeply. This helps me, like, track, you know, patterns in my reading, or it's helping me, like, follow things in a more intentional way. And some people are just doing it for fun, which is great too. Like, one of those is not better than the others, but just really interesting to see how that's shaken out. Last big story of the week. A judge in a federal lawsuit that was or a federal court judge in a lawsuit that was filed against Anthropic by a group of authors who claimed that Anthropic had illegally used their books in order to train the Claude large language models. The judge found that this is kind of a mixed bag. So the big news and the thing that's getting packaged is a win for Anthropic because the judge in this case found that AI companies can use copyrighted books without the author's permission in order to train AI models. He found that that is permissible under fair use law. Fair use is like, the thing that all of this hinges on. This is not the finding that has happened in some other cases. These judges, like, there's a lot of these cases and they're not all going to agree. But in this one, the judge said that's fine if they acquire the books legally. But many of the books that Anthropic and in some other cases Meta and OpenAI have been accused of using are from this books three data set that contains a lot of pirated copies of books. And the judge in this case found that when it was using pirated copies of the author's books without their permission, that was a violation of copyright law. Who knows, like, where this goes? I totally understand why authors and publishers are upset about this. Like, this is discouraging to see a judge say your copyrighted material can be used without your permission as long as they buy a copy like this would mean that Anthropic or Amazon or Meta or whoever could buy one ebook edition of your book and feed it into their large language model that they're going to make billions of dollars on without your permission. And in this reading, that's fine. They're only out of bounds if they pirate the books, which most of the books that went into the original training of these things were pirated because all of the. Like many of the executives from each of the companies have admitted now, we just didn't want to spend the time and the money to, like, go through the process of establishing licensing fees. It would slow us down. And in Meta's case, they disagree with publish about what the value of the books is. I'm trying to take heart in. Okay, at least we're talking about the pirating component here that will slow companies down if they have to pay a price for doing it. And also that there are so many more cases that need to make their ways through the courts before we have anything that looks like real settled law about this. What have you seen about this? Do you have a take here?

[Danica Ellis]

Yeah. All I've really seen is that this is one in, as you're saying, a series of decisions like this, and it's hard to know how it's gonna shake out. I do find it discouraging that it's fine as long as you bought the copy. It is interesting. I remember seeing that there were records of Meta employees. There was at least one Meta employee who said, I really think that it being pirated ebooks is essentially going to come back to bite us. Like, there was someone saying, this very well may be the defining factor, but they just wanted to move fast, so they brushed that aside. So, yeah, I feel like, hopefully it's hard to feel like you need to have a court decision on whether you're allowed to pirate something and make money off of it. Feels like doing something illegal is already illegal. But. But here we are.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah. And that's, you know, fundamentally what the judge said here. The pirating thing, like, you knew it was illegal when you did it. The pirating in itself is illegal, but these books that you acquired legally in this judge's reading can be used under fair use. They found it to be sufficiently transformative to be used under fair use into going into an LLM like I think we should assume this gets appealed. All of these cases are going to be appealed because nobody wants to lose. Whether you're the people suing or you're the tech company, really, this has got to make its way. Some one of these will have to make its way to the Supreme Court, and lawmakers are going to have to find a way to catch up with how quickly technology has developed and create some real regulation and clarity around it. But that is the latest development in these AI copyright cases.

[Danica Ellis]

Put us in a box.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

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[Danica Ellis]

Built in liner shorts so you can.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Still jump for the Frisbee and tan and bodysuits with Align's iconic stretch you won't want to take it off. And with endless style options, you don't have to shop in store or [e-mail] Danica that's the news this week. Since you're here with us and you are one of Book Riot's experts in queer books and we're just about halfway through the year, I wanted to ask you to talk about some of your favorite and the best queer books of 2025 so far.

[Danica Ellis]

Yeah, I've been thinking about what the kind of big queer books of the year have been, and I think there's two that are standouts. There is Atmosphere, obviously by Taylor Jenkins Reid, and then there's Barrier Bones in the Midnight Soil by V E Schwab, which has been talked about on the podcast before, and I feel like those are the ones that have broken out the most. Those are the most mainstream, I think. Yeah, there's been some other books that within queer books have been popular. I've heard a lot about the Emperor of Gladness by Ocean Vuong, though I have mentioned that has also broken out. To be fair But I haven't heard a lot about the specific representation in this book. I've seen it kind of tagged as queer a lot, but I don't know if that's just because the author is known for writing queer books. So I haven't read it yet and I don't know the specifics. So that one has a little bit of an asterisk for me, and then another one I feel like has been popular. Inside of the queer book world is so many stars. Vanessa recommended us.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, I love that one.

[Danica Ellis]

Yeah. An Oral History of Trans Non Binary Genderqueer and two Spirit People of Color by Carol Robertis. This sounds amazing and it is on my list and I really want to listen to the audiobook of it especially. I think that would be cool. But I also can talk about my personal favorites.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Let's hear it.

[Danica Ellis]

So one of them is Sympathy for Wild girls by Deborah McGee.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

What a good title, right?

[Danica Ellis]

And it is a collection of short stories. And I think that anyone who's a fan of Carmen Maria Machado should read this book. Sold, right? Like, they both write such great feminist, magical, realist, or fabulous stories. These are mostly stories about queer black women. And they are just so thought proven. They're the kind of story that I would love to have studied in a class because I feel like there's so much packed into them. There's some that are more realistic and some that are a little more surreal, but they just feel so visceral. And there's a lot of stories about really intense, undefined relationships between women or between girls in childhood. And I just feel like that is such a queer woman childhood experience to, like, look back and be like, what was that? And she writes them so well. And. And I really thought a lot of people were going to be talking about this when it came out, and it feels like it hasn't gotten a lot of attention yet and it deserves it. So for sure, that one's hard out.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

There for short stories, right?

[Danica Ellis]

Yeah. And it's a smaller press and queer black stories don't get the same amount of publicity as some other ones, but this definitely deserves it. Another one that was one of my favorites for the year, which I think I talked about in the last podcast, so I won't say a lot, but Awakened by a Osworth was a real favorite of mine. That's one that's a coven of trans witches who are fighting an evil AI. It has this narrator that has a really distinct voice and just such a fun kind of playing with language. I have had Such a great time with it. Again, I've talked about it before and then the last one I want to mention the ten Incarnations of Rebellion by Vaishnavia Patel. And this one is an alternate history of India where the original rebellion was really violently quashed. And it's about the main character who is trying to fight back for an independent India. And it has really interesting discussions about what that looks like, the kinds of sacrifices you have to make, the kinds of moral decisions you have to make about, you know, what is the role of violence, where is your personal line in the sand. And it is such a thought provoking book, especially it has a lot of information at the end about how even though this is an alternate history, basically everything in the book is inspired by real things that have happened. And. Yeah, so I would highly recommend all of those.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, you just wrote a great piece for Book riot about the 10 incarnations of rebellion.

[Danica Ellis]

Yeah, yeah. I did a review for this site about it. Again, I feel like this hasn't gotten as much attention as I thought it would because the author is already quite popular, but I think I really love a thought experiment of a book I really love. Yeah, I love books that make me turn over ideas in my head and really make me think. And I think that's why I latched onto this one so much. And I'm not sure if that's a general reader approach.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I mean, the news cycle is a lot right now for.

[Danica Ellis]

Yeah, that's true, that's true.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

That's gonna push you in that way. But I thought the way that you talked about it as a novel gives us kind of a template for how to push back against oppressive regimes. That's super relevant right now.

[Danica Ellis]

Exactly. I think it's really timely, unfortunately.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Unfortunately. Thank you for those. I can second the emotion for both atmosphere and Bury Our Bones in the Midnight Soil. I'm not sure that there will be a better marketing tagline this year than the Toxic Lesbian Vampires Are Coming.

[Danica Ellis]

Right.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

That was so much fun to read and to talk about with you and Vanessa. And folks, if you're listening and you are getting to the VE Schwab or you're trying to decide if it's a good fit for you, you can scroll up in the feed where Danika and Vanessa and I book clubbed our way through Bury Our Bones in the Midnight Soil. There's a good spoiler free chunk at the beginning and then we'll tell you when we get into spoilers. If you're trying to avoid those, thank you for being our correspondent on those highlights today, anytime. Let's take a little stroll into Front List Foyer where we talk about what we've reading recently. Frontless Foyer is sponsored by Thriftbooks, which has an endless selection of books and videos, music, gifts, games and everything. Comes at great prices to fill your imagination and your library. You can find childhood classics, new undiscovered worlds of adventure, something for everyone and every budget. I just stocked up on a couple of like our big English language classics that I'm intending to reread for a project. I got great prices on copies that are in beautiful condition from Thrift Reviews books. Huge selection, 19 million titles to browse. And if you're in the US you get free shipping on orders of $15 or more. Visit thriftbooks.combrpodcast where you can see a running list of all the titles that we've talked about on the show, including the ones that Danica just shouted out and our recent reading highlights. Danica, I guess I'll start here, give you a little break. Take a breather. I just read Among Friends by Hal and Ebbitt, which is one of the big literary fiction debuts of the spring. I was drawn to it because I love a compressed story. Like most of the action of this story happens over one weekend and it's between old friends who are getting together and like what's going to happen? And the synopsis is basically they've known each other forever. These two men became friends like their first day in college. They were roommates, kind of opposite personalities, different experiences growing up. But they form this great connection and we meet them in their 50s when they're married. Each of them has a teenage daughter and one is driving up with his family to the other one's like fancy house in the woods for a big milestone birthday celebration. Which like that's sign me up for that anytime. Like I love getting the gang back together. The synopsis also says that like there's a like a major betrayal that is going to shake their friendship. I finished this book and it was very propulsive but I am really mad because the major betrayal is a sexual assault.

[Danica Ellis]

Oh.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

That that one of these characters that one of these characters commits against another character that we spend a lot of time with in the book and who finds out and when they find out and how it impacts the person who was the victim of it and who's going to know about it after that? What is everyone going to do? Are we going to make this a thing or are we going to like sweep it under the rug is the action of like the last 60% of the book.

[Danica Ellis]

Oh, wow.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah. And just on the principle that like that's. This should. Sexual assault is not a plot twist.

[Danica Ellis]

Yeah. You should know going in if that's going to be the majority of the plot.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Right. Should not be a surprise to people. So I'm just going to be out here spoiling it because I looked up a bunch of reviews and like none of the reviews use to say that this is what it is. Everybody seems to be going along with the vague language of the synopsis. And I'm just not going to be about that life. Like, I feel really conflicted about this because the book is really well written and Ebbitt writes some incredible observations and very sharp sentences about these people. We get to be in both of the two guys. We're in their heads, we're in their wives heads. We spend time with their daughter matters. And the way that he really gets to the dynamics of a long friendship and kind of the internal dynamics of that. That somebody that you've loved and cared about for a very long time. But we're all people and so sometimes they also drive you nuts. And what are the little things that drive you nuts and how do those things get triggered is so, so well done. And I. I like fiction that is going to put people in these kinds of situations who aren't like 24, but who have lived a lot of life together and have observed each other for a long time. I think as a book, this book is very good. It is very well done. I just super object to the like, you know, to be surprised by that and then for it to be like that. It's not mentioned in any of the material because so much of the book hinges on what are these characters going to do about it. I just think does a disservice to readers. And so that's where I am. I don't really know what to do about it. I'm not sure how to talk about it or to recommend it without saying this is a really well written book that is objectively pretty good. But here's the thing you should know going in.

[Danica Ellis]

Yeah. It seems like more of a publicity problem than a problem with the book. The way you're talking about it.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, I think that's right. It's not super graphic in the book. In my reading, the way that the person who is the victim of the assault processes it and the attention that Ebott gives to the impact of that seems sensitive and careful. I didn't find Anything about the writing. I personally didn't find anything about the writing to be, like, reckless. Of course, this is a thing that people experience in their lives, and it's fodder. Like, it's fair game to write about sexual assault. It's fair game to write about the things that drive a person to commit something like that and to be critical of it. But I. I'm not down for keeping it a secret. So here we are.

[Danica Ellis]

Yeah. Ugh. That is disappointing.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I know.

[Danica Ellis]

And I'm glad that you're warning people about what it's actually about.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Thank you for the support there. What have you been reading?

[Danica Ellis]

Yeah, I want to talk about a couple of books that are both out July 1st. The first one is Tusk Love by Thea Guanson, which is. I feel like it kind of requires a little bit of backstory.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Did you just say tusk?

[Danica Ellis]

Like elephant or half orc?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Okay, why not?

[Danica Ellis]

So I love Critical Role, which is like a YouTube series where voice actors play Dungeons and Dragons together. Very fun, very popular. And within one of the games, they find this book called Tusk Love. It's like this steamy romance. It's kind of an ongoing joke in the campaign. Well, now it's a real book.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I love this for them.

[Danica Ellis]

And it's written by. By the person who wrote Hurricane Wars. So it's written by an actual respected author. And it is a steamy romantasy about a half orc and a merchant's daughter and their star crossed romance. I don't read a lot. I read this because I love Critical Role. I don't usually read a lot of Romantasy. I had a great time.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

It sounds like fun.

[Danica Ellis]

It's so fun. And it had to walk this interesting line because it's a pretty cheesy book in the game. So you had to kind of make it a little bit cheesy, but also a book you actually want to finish reading. And I think she did a great job with it. I think it does have a little bit of the description of the love interest. Sounds a little bit like describing Fabio on a clinch cover. But, yeah, I had a great time. It was very fun.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

That sounds like a good balance to 10 incarnations of rebellion and your more serious reading choices. Yeah, you need a little.

[Danica Ellis]

You need some of that. And then the other one is the original by Nell Stevens, which is. I feel like it's a little bit of a gothic, but I guess it's. It's just historical fiction. And it is about Grace, who, when she was a kid. She was sent to live with her aunt and uncle because her parents were both institutionalized. And she's always been kind of an outsider in this household. And she also becomes an art forger. She loves to paint, but she can only really copy from existing paintings. So she starts doing that, and then there's sort of a family curse element, which is interesting. That's the beginning of the novel. And what happens is essentially all the male heirs start to die off, which would sort of leave her as the heir, essentially, which nobody else in the family wants. So one of the sons has disappeared at sea. Everyone thinks he's dead. And then I forget how much longer it is. 20 years later or something, he reappears, and he would be the heir, except people can't seem to agree if this is actually the same person or not.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Oh, okay.

[Danica Ellis]

And it's the whole book. It's kind of talking about the original and forgeries and copies and. And the main character has kind of face blindness, so she really can't tell if this is the same guy. Yeah, her cousin that she grew up with. So throughout the book, you're trying to untangle this because he does seem to know everything about him, but also there are some things that don't quite line up. And then meanwhile, the main character is also realizing that she's queer and trying to figure out how to deal with that in 1899. This is such an interesting book. I've been meaning to read Nell Stevens for a while. You know when you have authors where you're like, I feel like I'm really gonna like them, even though I haven't read anything of theirs. And now I have. Have. And I was right.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, it sounds great.

[Danica Ellis]

It's. Yeah, it's really. It's really enthralling. The reason I feel like it's a gothic is that it has that kind of building dread. You know, that's not. It's not fast paced, but it just draws you in because you're. You're just like, something's off.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Good wrap up there. Well, folks, these titles again are all [e-mail] bookripodc podcast. That's our show this week. All of the stories that we talked about will be linked in the show Notes, which you can find wherever you're listening to the show and [e-mail] listen. Join us on Patreon patreon.com bookriotpodcast and of course, you can always email [e-mail] have a good weekend. We'll see you next week.

[Danica Ellis]

Bye.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

What do you do when your toddler melts down or your teen shuts down? I want to introduce you to the Mindful Mama Podcast. I'm Hunter Clark Fields, author of Raising Good Humans and your host for the past 10 years. I used to be a yelling, overwhelmed mom until I found mindfulness and practical parenting tools that changed everything. Each week I bring you honest conversations and expert advice. Advice to help you regulate your emotions, manage your kids behavior with compassion, and break the cycle of reactive parenting. Whether you're raising toddlers or teens, you'll find real strategies for conscious parenting, screen time, adhd, and more. Listen to the Mindful Mama Podcast wherever you get your podcasts because you can raise kind, confident kids without losing your cool.