← Book Riot - The Podcast
Loading summary
Transcript163 lines
- [00:02]
Rebecca Schinsky
This episode is sponsored by Incogni. You know how sometimes it feels like the Internet knows way too much about you? That might be because data brokers are collecting and selling your personal information. Incogni steps in to fix that. Incogni reaches out to data brokers on your behalf, requests your personal data to be removed, and handles any pushback from their side. And because many of these brokers keep trying to recollect your info, Incogni keeps working in the background, sending repeated removal requests to make sure your data stays off the market. The whole thing is fully automated, and that's why the yearly plan is such a great value. If you've ever wondered why robocalls just won't stop, it's because your number is being bought and sold. Some brokers even sell lists with names like Tough Start Young, Single Parents or Rural and Barely making it so companies can target disadvantaged people. It's real and it's really gross. I've personally been targeted online because of the work that I do, and Incogni has given me an easy way to push back and protect my personal information. And not only that, they handle handle it all for me. Use promo code Bookriot to get an exclusive 60% off an annual plan at incogni.com bookriot that's code bookriot at I n c O-G-N-I.com bookriot Abercrombie Denim is everything right now. Denim should feel like this. Confident, easy, like your butt has never looked better. If you didn't know, Abercrombie's Curve Love denim went viral in 2019 for eliminating waist gap, and it's still a game changer. Between that and their classic fits with a straighter line from waist to hip, the perfect denim does exist. Shop Abercrombie Denim in the app, online and in store.
- [01:49]
Jeff O'Neill
This is the Book Riot Podcast. I'm Jeff o'. Neill.
- [01:51]
Rebecca Schinsky
And I'm Rebecca Schinsky and we're scrambling.
- [01:53]
Jeff O'Neill
Like a bunch of squirrels today. Rebecca.
- [01:56]
Rebecca Schinsky
It's a really good, fun scramble. We both love to be in startup mode on a thing. I know longtime listeners have heard us talk about having the Don Draper you like the beginnings of things. I don't know if it's a disease, it's a condition and I really like it. But we are just about to launch two big things that we've been working on.
- [02:17]
Jeff O'Neill
Whose idea was this?
- [02:18]
Rebecca Schinsky
For months. It just happened that way.
- [02:22]
Jeff O'Neill
Sure.
- [02:24]
Rebecca Schinsky
We have been. I mean, our shared project. The first, the big launch, is called Zero to. Well, read it's a new podcast that launches on the 9th. You'll be able to find it wherever you get your podcasts, and it's kind of what it sounds like. But we also have a big flagship newsletter for Book Riot that we've been working on that will launch on the 9th and come out every Tuesday and Thursday. So we can talk about those a little bit here. But we are fully in spin up mode.
- [02:49]
Jeff O'Neill
Yeah. And I'm getting ready to go to New York for a bunch of work meetings. I'm looking at my calendar and like getting Vertigo already. It's going to be a little wild, but I get to show off and talk about new things. We haven't talked about either of these things in the main feed. Right. We did the pilot episode for Zero to well read in the Patreon. That's some of the cool things you get if you sign up for the Patreon, as you get previews and sneak peeks and all the things there. Have we said nothing here? We've said nothing about?
- [03:11]
Rebecca Schinsky
I believe that we have. You know, I think folks who have been paying attention have noticed that the idea of being well read, the importance of engaging deeply with texts and how that is a form of resistance to technology and dopamine addiction, those things have been top of mind for us. And it's not just because we're cranky.
- [03:31]
Jeff O'Neill
Not only because we're cranky. Right. Necessary but not sufficient. And the idea here is each episode we take on one of the books that generally people think of a pebble you could put in your well read jar. Is that a way of putting it?
- [03:45]
Rebecca Schinsky
Yeah, sure.
- [03:46]
Jeff O'Neill
Yeah. And then we get into it. We read. We of course will have read the books. We've done some research, we have talking points. We get into why it's important or why it goes into the well read jar. We give background on the author, the time period in which it's from. We talk about flaws, foibles, but also it's it's importance in what's nourishing or what's. What's interesting about it. And we've got what, five in the can so far?
- [04:10]
Rebecca Schinsky
Yes. We're going to do 12 this season.
- [04:13]
Jeff O'Neill
12 this season. And the episodes are looking like they're about an hour and 15 minutes. We didn't really have a time that we were going for, but we can kind of COVID what we need to cover an hour, 15 to go much longer. You'd have to get much more weedsy than we intend this to be at this point.
- [04:27]
Rebecca Schinsky
Yeah, the Pitch for the show is everything you need to know about the books that you wish you'd read, which is a great logline. But these can also be books that you read a long time ago and that you want to revisit, or as in the case of the launch episode, the Great Gatsby books that you were too young to. To really appreciate when you read them. I think high school is just not the right point for most people to be able to relate to it. And going back to Gatsby as an adult was a really interesting and satisfying experience. We kind of have been talking about it as like the literary dinner party of your dreams, and nobody is going to ask your opinion about Chekhov.
- [05:01]
Jeff O'Neill
Yeah. And, you know, the intent is like, if you have read the book, you'll get something from the episode. If you're interested in reading the book, it may help you decide whether you want to. And if you have no intention of ever reading the book, you'll at least be entertained for a little while and know something about and get. So I hope it gets all three of those principal audiences. And we do stuff like what our favorite quotes are. We're evolving as we go already. And we've added some segments, I think not in the first one, but in the second or third. I introduced something called the zero to well read score. We have our hot Take section. We have for the most recent one, I added the. Could you get basically the gist if you just watched the movie? I'm not going to give away what that may or may not be about. And I think the answer that one was, oh, maybe we had a resident movie expert there talk to us about.
- [05:47]
Rebecca Schinsky
That for that one. It was. And we've taken the book riot approach to what it means to be well read. So there are classics, there are English class staples, but there are also contemporary hits. We've got some books that are celebrating, like 20th or 30th anniversaries, and we're doing some pop culture smashes, things that a person who cares about knowing what's going on in the books, in the world of books and reading needs to have read or at least to be familiar with in order to be conversant. So if that's a thing you care about, we hope to help you ring all of those bells. If you don't care about that at all, that's probably not the podcast for.
- [06:22]
Jeff O'Neill
You, probably not the show for you.
- [06:23]
Rebecca Schinsky
And so it also. That's also one of the reasons that it's a separate feed. So you'll need to go in your podcatcher of choice to find zero to well read under the Book Riot podcasts subscribe to that feed. If you like the show, please do rate and review it. Tell your book nerdy friends and we of course will be open to feedback for that. The show has its own dedicated email, but y' all know where to find us@podcastriot.com as well.
- [06:46]
Jeff O'Neill
You can find a link in the show Notes to the but it won't quite be out yet on Monday. Certainly not for the Patreon folks that get this early tomorrow or even later today if I get to it. But you can subscribe and so that first episode will be piping hot and then it's weekly for a while and we take a break.
- [07:01]
Rebecca Schinsky
It's weekly for 12 weeks. We'll be running through mid November. We'll stop episodes right before Thanksgiving here in the States and then we'll pick back up in mid late January. Give ourselves some time to rest and to catch up on reading. We'll do 12 episodes with a two week spring break in the spring and then assuming it goes well, we're going to have hot Greek summer next year.
- [07:23]
Jeff O'Neill
We it's been fun. It's been fun.
- [07:25]
Rebecca Schinsky
It's been a really good time. This is the most fun that I've had working on a project in a long time. It's been really satisfying.
- [07:31]
Jeff O'Neill
The other big thing coming on Tuesday, it's a new our Book Riot's new flagship newsletter called the Book Riot Newsletter. Rebecca and I are also spearheading that because we're masochists.
- [07:41]
Rebecca Schinsky
Who needs sleep.
- [07:42]
Jeff O'Neill
Initially it's going to be Tuesdays and Thursdays, but we have designs ongoing more frequently as we scale up our our ability to do it. We understand and it is a meant to be Book Riots flagship newsletter. And it's in the vein of newsletters you might know like 1440 or the skim or Morning Brew, which is an overview of the day in books and reading. For us, that's not what those other things do, but you get links, you get commentary, you get coverage on the stories that matter. We really think of it as almost like evolving the homepage to bookriot.com especially as algorithms and search traffics and everything has sort of dried up, moved away and shifted. This is something that appears in people's newsletter email. They're not subject to the algorithm finding it out. It's going to be skimmable. You know, you can, you can browse it. There's going to be stuff we can engage deeper if you want to click through or do further reading. But it's also like you can get an overview, you can get a sense of what's new that day. You know it's going to be new releases and recommendations and we have some interviews and QAs and cover reveals and quotes and trivia and all this stuff that goes into it. And I really hope it becomes for a lot of people their sort of principal point of entry into what's going on in the world of books, reading and figuring out. So even if you don't have time to pick up your book that day, you can spend five minutes reading about, reading about books or reading about books in that particular way. And we've got lots of ideas there. Kind of a whole company has been involved in putting the pieces together and we're really excited for that as well. There will be a link to sign up if you've signed up for one of our general interest newsletters, New Books Today in Books, Book Riot deals, giveaways, you're going to be on that list automatically. If you only get one of our genre things like if you only get the romance or you only get thrillers or horror or anything like that, you will not be automatic. So we're trying to be within the spirit and letter of the law for people signing up for newsletters. It's a general purpose one. But if you're only signed up for something else with us and you're interested, go to the link in the show notes bookride.com listen to a sign up page there. Also forward on to friends, family members, fellow librarians, people who work in the industry, teachers. We really think there's something here for most people who care about books at all. Rebecca, did I miss anything?
- [09:57]
Rebecca Schinsky
No. That's a great pitch. You did a good job.
- [09:59]
Jeff O'Neill
Oh thank you so much. I appreciate that. And with that huge ad for things we do, we're going to take a break for people to tell you about other things we don't do that we get money for.
- [10:11]
Sponsor/Ad Reader
Today's episode is brought to you by Poisoned Pin Press, publishers of Breathe In, Bleed out by Brian McAuley. Now Hannah has been running from her demons ever since she emerged from a harrowing wilderness trip without her fiance. No one knows what happened the day Ben died, and his ghost still haunts her with waking nightmares. So when she is invited to a spiritual retreat, Hannah believes it could be the fresh start she needs. But the peaceful journey of self discovery quickly descends into a fight for sur when a killer starts picking off attendees in increasingly gruesome ways. As the body count rises in Hannah's sanity phrase, she'll have to confront her past and uncover a monster hell bent on killing her vibe for good. This ultra cinematic thrill ride comes from author Brian McCauley, a WGA screenwriter who has written everything from family sitcoms like Fuller House to psychological thriller films like Dismissed. Make sure to pick up Breathe In, Bleed Out. We love a punny title by Brian McAuley and thanks again to Poison Pen Press for sponsoring this episode. Today's episode is brought to you by North South Books, publishers of Buzz Boom, the Book of Sounds. Written and illustrated by Benjamin Gottwald, this brand new kind of interactive picture book invites you to make the sounds you see and inspires endless fun. Buzz Boom. The Book of Sounds by Benjamin Gottwald is meant to be read aloud. You crash, caw, whoosh, yawn, moo and roar. Can you purr? Can you caw.
- [11:45]
Jeff O'Neill
Caw.
- [11:45]
Sponsor/Ad Reader
This is perfect for readers ages 4 to 94. I'm having fun telling you about it, okay? Children's literature calls this zany, wordless book a joyous celebration of sound, movement and imagination. It features 168 pages of full color illustrations and no words at all. The illustrations inspire all sorts of sounds, from animals to echoes to I'll be honest with you. To flatulence. You know, we had to take it there. This is perfect for children just learning how to read and for children learning how to make different sounds and phonemes. Make sure to pick up Buzz Boom. Bang. By Benjamin Gottwald. And thanks again to North South Books for sponsoring this episode. Today's episode is brought to you by Slow Burn, a Xando Imprint, publishers of Lights out by Nevesa Allen, a number one New York Times bestseller with 1.5 million satisfied readers. Lights out by Nevesa Allen is unlike anything you've ever read. Together, Ally and Josh are living out their darkest fantasies, unaware that Ally has captured the attention of someone else. Someone with far more sinister intentions than a little light stalking. As Josh turns from predator to protector and the stakes heighten, he must ask himself how far he's willing to go for the woman he's obsessed with. Come Join the Fun. Fun is in quotation marks. Here, friend. Come join the fun with Lights out, the dark rom com that will have you reading all night long. It's available in paperback, ebook, and audio wherever books are sold. You know you need to get this messy, dark romance fix. Make sure to check out Lights out by Nevesa Allen. And thanks again to Slow Burn, a Xando imprint for sponsoring this episode.
- [13:33]
Jeff O'Neill
Speaking of getting money for things.
- [13:35]
Rebecca Schinsky
Nice segue. Look at that.
- [13:36]
Jeff O'Neill
Yeah, the old boy still got it. We don't know how much money. Rebecca Anthropic has settled in an AI copyright infringement case over book piracy. I was frankly quite surprised to see this. Were you as surprised as I was to see a settlement for this?
- [13:55]
Rebecca Schinsky
I was interested. I don't know that I was that surprised. I think it's more that I hadn't spent that much time thinking about what was going to happen after the initial court case. So this is a follow up on a case that was. There was a decision for it in July where the judge said that in this case with Anthropic, it was fair use that they took copyrighted materials without getting authors permission to train their LLMs. As long as the books were acquired legally, that is like you had to buy a copy of the book and then you could do what, in this judge's reading, you could do whatever you wanted with it because feeding it into an LLM was sufficiently transformative to be fair use of the material. But if you did not acquire the material legally, that was a problem. And Anthropic had already admitted that they pirated a whole bunch of the books that they fed in when they were making Claude. So this was a class action lawsuit brought by a bunch of authors who believed that their books had been pirated in order to go into Claude. And I'm guessing that this settlement was the fee that Anthropic decided to pay to avoid having to go to discovery.
- [15:03]
Jeff O'Neill
Oh, that's interesting. Yeah. I also wonder if the nature of the ruling suggested to the authors that further litigation wasn't going to get them, at least in this trial, the big prize. What they, I think what they wanted, which is the ruling that it is not transformative work, that they actually. This is not a fair use sort of situation for even something that you bought. Like, if you think of the mental model as more like a human, where if I go by, I don't know, Grand Union by Zadie Smith and I reference it while I'm writing my own short story collection. I'm not copying it, but I'm like, oh, you know, look at how she does this. I'm going to use that. My thing, that's fine because I bought that book. You would never know this if, I guess if I stole that book, no one have any idea. But the case here is it can be proven that you didn't actually pay for the work in question and that maybe Left open a window in which a number could be arrived at that both parties would agree is like, okay, we're not going to get the punitive damage. You really didn't do it. We're going to get all the money thing from the authors. And rather than continue the legal stuff because this is not inexpensive to do, let's take what we can get now.
- [16:06]
Rebecca Schinsky
Maybe so. And I mean, one of the things that I've seen going around the Internet in interpretation of this that I really think is important to clear up is this. This lawsuit settlement does not mean that going forward, AI companies have to pay licensing fees. No, it just means they have to have legally acquired the book so they can buy. To stick with your example, one copy of Grand Union by Zadie Smith they can feed it into. And they've already done it.
- [16:34]
Jeff O'Neill
Oh, yeah, they've done it.
- [16:35]
Rebecca Schinsky
It's already in, definitely, but they can do that. So this was a win for these authors, but it's a narrow win. I think it's a possible road to progress. I said at the time the original judgment came down that it felt to me, reading that judgment, like the judge in the case was laying breadcrumbs for future lawsuits. If you want to be more successful, you need to make this about the theft and you need to have more evidence that the material was taken from you. Stop trying to make it about fair use and whether it's sufficiently transformative, at least in that judge's reading. So we'll interesting to continue seeing this. I know there is still some time, I believe, for authors to try to join the class. So if you're an author and you're listening to this and you believe your books have been pirated to be used in one of Anthropic's models, you can look into information about that. We will not know until later this month when the settlement is finalized how much it was for.
- [17:30]
Jeff O'Neill
Yeah, a few weeks. This is a piece in the Verge that I'm referencing by Emma Roth and she references a piece in Wired in terms of what the scope could have been for penalties here in the piracy claims, which is sort of billions of a trillion dollars. I'm guessing it's not a trillion. I'm guessing if it was a trillion, they would have kept going in the court case. I don't think it was like, you know what, let's just give a trillion dollars. Anthropic doesn't have a trillion.
- [17:53]
Rebecca Schinsky
It's been a while since I've. Yeah, Anthropic. Not as big as, you know, Open AI. And I'm not sure that anybody in the game really.
- [17:59]
Jeff O'Neill
I mean, that'd be like you get half of Apples for a trillion, you get half of Apple's market cap. I will be very, very interested to see what the settlement is here. And I guess for those of us who are interested in this in a macro sense, really we're going to know is when one of these cases about the transformative question hits the Supreme Court, it's we're going to have to wait that long because one of these will make it to the Supreme Court. One of these plaintiffs is going to fight to the end and keep appealing and keep appealing, or both cases, Frank. Frankly, both sides are going to appeal and appeal because they can't hear more because there's too much on the line. There's too much on the line for authors or other creators. I'm not sure we are on illustrators and videographers and other sort of media inputs to these systems. We've been following the author's point. But this is going to keep going and keep going until there is a Supreme Court ruling or law or something else that happens that settles this affinity because this is not a Supreme Court.
- [18:55]
Rebecca Schinsky
We need some kind of settled law.
- [18:57]
Jeff O'Neill
Around this, some kind of settled law. Jonathan Karp has settled. He's decided.
- [19:03]
Rebecca Schinsky
He's had a busy couple years.
- [19:04]
Jeff O'Neill
Look, I've, I've had days at conferences where I'm tired, but I've never had one so busy that causes me to like, step down from my position. Now, I have not been the CEO of a publisher at the Frankfurt Book Fair. And Jonathan Carp, we're joking here, but we also kind of admire, I kind of admire this move that Jonathan Carp.
- [19:23]
Rebecca Schinsky
She had to shepherd Simon and Schuster through the failed merger and like the.
- [19:28]
Jeff O'Neill
Whole situation with acquisition by private equity. And it was a show floor day.
- [19:33]
Rebecca Schinsky
That did the guy right by the doj. He. And he is stepping down from his position as CEO of Simon and Schuster, but he's going to head up a new imprint called Simon Six that will publish six books per year. And this is, I think makes a lot of sense for how Jonathan Karp presents himself within the industry. He was not a business guy. He is a books guy. And he wants to get back into the making of the books, the creative part of the job. Probably having to have led that company through the tour, the two big years that he led them through, that would make anybody be like, you know what, can I just go back to manuscript?
- [20:15]
Jeff O'Neill
Can I just nestle myself in the bosom of the mid list just hit.
- [20:19]
Rebecca Schinsky
Me with the slush pile baby.
- [20:21]
Jeff O'Neill
Like I know. So I, I look forward to seeing what he publishes. I had an occasion, an interview. I'm not going to say now. I talked to a CEO of another Big 5 publisher who's also not, it's not Jonathan Carr, but comes from a book background. And one of the things I don't think that this person said it directly but it was implied is when you're this high on the ladder, you are pretty far from individual books.
- [20:44]
Rebecca Schinsky
Oh, I would imagine so.
- [20:45]
Jeff O'Neill
And if you get started in editorial capacity, you know a lot of these people in publishing, as they climb the executive ladder, they could go to other entities and make a lot more money in a growing industry. People here are generally, this is not universally true there because they care about books in some capacity and maybe they get comfortable or maybe it's maybe more difficult. But this was pretty refreshing. This isn't, I'm going to go spend more time with my family. This is, I'm not retiring. This isn't, I'm not going to take a VP of whatever just sort of of coast on board. This is like I want to get closer to the medal. And I found this pretty heartening in a way. I guess maybe he got to make his own deal. I wonder if like did who presented whom with what proposal for the Simon six?
- [21:29]
Rebecca Schinsky
The unanswerable question is did it? Who initiated this? Was, was Jonathan Karp the one who said I'm tired and I'd like to get back to the books or was it maybe suggested to him that it was time to step down? But we'd love to have you, you still involved and would you like to go back to the creative side? But it'll be very interesting to see him do it. I can't imagine how stressful his job has been and to be in a position like that. As you were saying as somebody who started from the space of really loving books, like even our jobs running this company of 15 people are pretty removed from most of the creative aspects we.
- [22:04]
Jeff O'Neill
Have to bare knuckle fight to get chances to talk about.
- [22:08]
Rebecca Schinsky
The company is still small enough and we are high enough ranking that we can insist on having creative projects that keep us interested. But there's a point where if you're like the CEO of Simon and Schuster, you can't be like, I'm going to do my whole job and be an editor on the side here. The company's not going to invest in that. And I'm curious to see what he'll put out. I don't have any sense of him as a reader.
- [22:30]
Jeff O'Neill
No, there is. I'm trying to see here. He probably has a lot of connections, and I don't know what else is going to happen. He'll be partnering with other imprints. It's very fascinating to see how these. I still have very little insight, and I know it varies from imprint to imprint and house to house of how imprints work or don't work together. And it seems very strange to me on the whole. One of the oddities of the publishing industry is you have these fiefdoms that putatively could compete with each other because there's overlap in the kind of books they could be interested in. In. Because a lot of the. A lot of the kinds of books we read. What's the difference between Ballantine and Put Putnam again, Rebecca, in terms of their editorial mission? You know what I'm saying?
- [23:14]
Rebecca Schinsky
Yeah, I couldn't tell you that.
- [23:16]
Jeff O'Neill
Yeah, sorry. And the lines between some of them are brighter than others, but some of them are pretty damn blurry at that size, so. Okay, moving on. On the one hand, we are getting. We are starting to get prize stuff from 2025. But is this a 2025 prize? It is, but is it, though?
- [23:38]
Rebecca Schinsky
Well, mostly. It's mostly a 2025.
- [23:41]
Jeff O'Neill
Mostly dead, like Miracle Max says is a mostly a 20, but not all. There's a big difference between all and mostly.
- [23:46]
Rebecca Schinsky
I think I ranted about this on Wednesday's It Books episode. I'm not sure how it came.
- [23:50]
Jeff O'Neill
Is that where that was? I don't know. I just assume. We rant about it from time to time.
- [23:54]
Rebecca Schinsky
We had a. Oh, yeah, we were talking about. Yeah, we had a sidebar about the Kirkus Prize because the eligibility window for it is November 1st to the following October 31st. So the finalists for this year's Kirkus Prize can have been published anytime between November 1st of last year, 2024, and then October 31st of this year. A great list of finalists, including the Loneliness of Sonia and Sunny by Kiran Desai, which is getting a lot of heat, coming out later this month. The Wilderness by Angela Flournoy, also coming out later this month. I'm halfway through it, and it's really good so far.
- [24:29]
Jeff O'Neill
Excellent.
- [24:30]
Rebecca Schinsky
Isola by Allegra Goodman, A Guardian and A Thief by Megha Majumdar. And that's a new one to me, and I'm starting to see it pop up places.
- [24:37]
Jeff O'Neill
I don't think it's out yet.
- [24:39]
Rebecca Schinsky
Yeah, it's later this fall. The Slip by Lucas Schaeffer and Flesh by David Zolleh, which a couple of those are from late last year. So just to recap, to qualify for the Kirkus Prize, you have to have gotten a starred review in Kirkus. So in addition to their eligibility window, you have to get a starred review. And only 10% of the titles that they review in a given eligibility period get that star. There were more than like 2000, maybe close to 3000 titles that were reviewed in that period. So a couple hundred that contended for these. And the finalists will be out later this. Well, these are the finalists. The award winners are out later this month or early October.
- [25:23]
Jeff O'Neill
Do you have a pick?
- [25:25]
Rebecca Schinsky
I have.
- [25:26]
Jeff O'Neill
I read any of these. What have I read here?
- [25:28]
Rebecca Schinsky
Yeah, I don't know if I have a pick.
- [25:30]
Jeff O'Neill
I haven't read any of these yet. So there we go. On the fiction side, I'm nonfiction. I've done A Marriage at Sea and I've done Baldwin.
- [25:36]
Rebecca Schinsky
Yeah. So I think A Marriage at Sea might have a nice little run during.
- [25:41]
Jeff O'Neill
Book awards to the Obama Pixel ticket in a minute. I don't know that there's enough there. I really don't like.
- [25:45]
Rebecca Schinsky
It's not as literary as the book awards tend to be. So maybe a bunch of. Maybe a bunch of nominations for it.
- [25:51]
Jeff O'Neill
Or substantial as like a history. Right. Like. Or as revealing as a memoir. Like it's a weird in between book and I think that's frankly it's a readerly virtue.
- [26:00]
Rebecca Schinsky
But an award vibes based of the non fiction finalists. I would guess we'd see it go to either Baldwin A Love Story by Nicholas Boggs or maybe Black and Blues by Imani Perry. There's a lot of those two for that when it first came out. Kirkus can be a little bit of a like left turn in their award winners. It's not always a big popular book or the ones you think it might be. So I don't know I'm ready for this surprise.
- [26:26]
Jeff O'Neill
Here is our generous reading of this stupid calendar thing. Is it that de facto the books that are the best books of a year don't come out in November and December so that we don't need to worry about them. Is that de facto what's being said here?
- [26:43]
Rebecca Schinsky
I don't know. I really don't know how to guess about it.
- [26:46]
Jeff O'Neill
Like that would be the case. You'd say we only take it from 10 months. You wouldn't offset it because you're still considering November and December books. It's just for the next calendar.
- [26:55]
Rebecca Schinsky
It's just for the next cycle. Are you still considering November and December books? Like I would imagine Kirk's editorial calendar probably is done pretty far in advance.
- [27:04]
Jeff O'Neill
Well, I mean they're. They're showing up starved. Reviews for things are coming out in a couple months. Right. Edelweiss.
- [27:09]
Rebecca Schinsky
They've read whatever books they know what's gonna have a star in December.
- [27:14]
Jeff O'Neill
So why I'm really trying here podcast.
- [27:17]
Rebecca Schinsky
Bookrat.Com it's not the only book award that has this eligibility window like the ones that have the off kilter ones. I think it is this November 1st to October 31st thing and I, I would really. I believe there is a reason. I would love to know what it is.
- [27:32]
Jeff O'Neill
Yeah, it's in a reason, not an excuse. Because what it would be difficult to me as a consumer of maybe one. I have to be in the top 1% of consumers of book award information list and other information. The idea that looking one of the purposes of words like this, at least what I would want from words like this is a way to look back historically and see what books were valorized in their moment. And this thing where you're not sure what year a book came out and it could be multiple years that it covers an award is wild to me. It's why it just is generally wild to me. I don't care if it means you've got to do the Hollywood thing where like limited release on Christmas day so it can be eligible for the next year awards people just. Let's just figure this out.
- [28:28]
Rebecca Schinsky
Well, you know, it's possible like the Pulitzers are solving for a lot of things that aren't books. And so they're waiting for all of the journalism of a given year to come out and all of the music to come out. And like all of the things that they can't get. You can't really get previews of the journalism that's going to come out. So we don't get the announcement of the Pulitzers until the spring because I imagine it they're collecting Oscars till the spring, they're collecting clips throughout the year and publications are deciding what they want to put forth. Then the Pulitzer people have time to consider it and they come out with the awards in the spring. But the flip side is that the National Book Award does consider all of the books that come out in a given calendar year and they manage to give their awards in October. Galleys exist. Like I just. In a world where galleys exist and you can either do it early or you can pull a Pulitzer and not give the award until the following calendar year, but still be considering the entire previous one. I don't know what we're doing with this, these off kilter eligibility windows.
- [29:27]
Jeff O'Neill
Yeah, I understand why they might want to give the award at the end of the year in which the books have come out because of the buying season. The buying season for books is so skewed towards the fall. You really want to have your name out there for awarding the prize in October, November so that people can buy it for Christmas, another book buying season in the winter. Whereas if you know, in the Pulitzer's case, you know, the Kirkus Prize, it's a good one, but it does not have the weight. It doesn't have historical import of the Pulitzer. And so it can't sort of exist by itself or it has less weight. Right. Because by the time you award in April, you're starting to compete with summer books coming out or things have come out already and some of these books will have been out a year by then. The movies, they just live with that. I guess they just live with. Some of the movies are no longer in theaters and you've got to pick them up somewhere else. That's just the way that goes because the Oscars have such clout and the.
- [30:16]
Rebecca Schinsky
Emmys do a really weird eligibility window.
- [30:18]
Jeff O'Neill
The Emmys calendar on that. I don't. So I don't know. This is not number one on our list of if we were czar of books, that would be let's not all read white.
- [30:28]
Rebecca Schinsky
But it's on the list.
- [30:28]
Jeff O'Neill
I'm good reads, but it's up there. You know, it's a. It's not, it's in our first hundred days, but it's not our first executive order to do there. So there we go.
- [30:38]
Sponsor/Ad Reader
Today's episode is brought to you by Random House Children's Books, publishers of When We Were Monsters by Jennifer Niven. Now, if you are a darkademia lover, if you like a little gothic in your dark academia, if you like the Secret History, this one is for you. This is a simmering psychological thriller about a dead teacher at an elite boarding school, the students who had every reason to want her gone, and the tangled web of rivalry and romance concealing the truth from the number one New York Times bestselling author of all the Bright Places. Now this is perfect for fans of E. Lockhart, Courtney Summers, Karen McManus and fans of books like, as I mentioned before, the Secret History, the God of the Woods. And I have some questions for you. I don't have questions for you. That's just the name of the book. This is a must read, slow bleed, dark academia thriller. It's perfect for the fall. It's filled with trauma bonding, a high stakes writing competition, forced proximity, exes and a mysterious boarding school ritual. Make sure to pick up When We Were Monsters by Jennifer Niven and thanks again to Random House Children's Books for sponsoring this episode. Today's episode is brought to you by underlined publishers of An Embroidery of Souls by Ruby Martinez. Jade can manipulate souls with the tug of a thread. It's up to her and a boy with a soul as bright as the universe to stop a creature on the loose before it claims its next victim. That is, if they can work past their mistrustful alliance. In her lush, spellbinding debut, Ruby Martinez weaves a wildly romantic, heart pounding mystery set against the backdrop of Mexican and German lore. It's a young adult fantasy debut filled with magic, romance and mental health representation that's through a protagonist who grows to recognize her strength and also grapples with anxiety. It's a great read for anyone interested in a unique magic system, a murder mystery mixed with magic, adventure and romance, and rich world building and gorgeous prose. So pick up An Embroidery of Souls by Ruby Martinez for all the things basically that you would look for in a good book. Just saying. And thanks again to Underlined for sponsoring this episode.
- [33:02]
Rebecca Schinsky
This episode is sponsored by Harper Muse, publisher of Bees in June by Elizabeth Bass Parman. Stick around after the show to hear an excerpt from the audiobook edition. Uncle Dixon always told Rennie to tell the bees everything, but somewhere along the way Rennie forgot. Now, with her life at its lowest, she begins to see the bees in a new light. Will she believe again in the magic of the hives? And will she listen as the bees try to guide her home? Bees in June is perfect for fans of Sarah Addison Allen, Margaret Wrinkle and Rachel Linden. Featuring a full cast of narrators, the audiobook of Bees in June is the ideal listen to end summer with. It's hopeful and infused with magical realism. And you can listen to or read Bees in June everywhere you get your books today. Again, stick around after the show to hear an excerpt from the audiobook edition of Bees in June by Elisabeth Bass Parman. Thanks so much to Harper Muse for sponsoring this episode.
- [33:55]
Jeff O'Neill
I wrote about this today in Today in Books. Breaking news Yesterday? No, this morning. No, it was yesterday. I got the email a press release from Barnes and Noble yesterday that I I had Rebecca this Is we wondered last year when Barnes and Noble picked up the moldering carcass of Tattered covered Books, which had really had a hard time and was in financial distress, what that portended for.
- [34:19]
Rebecca Schinsky
That was two years ago. That was 22 years ago.
- [34:21]
Jeff O'Neill
Pardon me. If that portended anything. Is this. They're going to give this a whirl? Is this a unique situation that they couldn't pass up? You know, James Dunt is like, he comes from the world of indie bookstores over in the uk, couldn't help themselves. And then how was it gonna go? And I think you and I talked about, is there a world in which, if this goes well, Barnes and Noble decides to keep doing this because it seemed the time, like it seemed like a lot of hassle to be a one off. And it's not a one off, Rebecca.
- [34:55]
Rebecca Schinsky
Because it's apparently not.
- [34:57]
Jeff O'Neill
Barnes and Noble is acquiring Books Incorporated, which is a venerable local group of independent. It's an independent group, but they have multiple locations in the Bay Area. There's eight bookstores and then two more locations in the San Francisco airport. It's been around for 174 years. Not all of the locations.
- [35:15]
Rebecca Schinsky
The oldest independently owned and operated bookstore in the Western U.S. that's.
- [35:20]
Jeff O'Neill
That's what I should have made the headline like, Barnes Noble acquires the oldest. This bookstore west of the Rockies. But I didn't. I wasn't clickbaity enough for that. I didn't have my glasses on yet. Books Incorporate has fallen on hard financial times, much like Tattered Cover filed for Chapter 11 earlier this year. This still has some court approval things to go through, but I suspect that it will go through like the other one did. And Rebecca, we have ourselves a ball game.
- [35:46]
Rebecca Schinsky
I think we do.
- [35:47]
Jeff O'Neill
Points makes a line. We have ourselves a ball game.
- [35:49]
Rebecca Schinsky
And. And Barnes and Noble intends to keep most of these locations open to have it maintain, as they did with the Tattered Cover, maintain the spirit of the store. They won't be transforming these locations into Barnes and Noble locations. They'll continue to function as independent bookstores. But with Barnes and Noble's financial backing, I don't think that there's been any like, major upheaval in the two years since the takeover of Tattered Coverage.
- [36:17]
Jeff O'Neill
Where I've heard or seen nary work doesn't mean it's not. But I have not seen anything.
- [36:21]
Rebecca Schinsky
Yeah, no, major. I'm sure there were some bumps along the way, especially for folks that were involved in that or felt they did.
- [36:27]
Jeff O'Neill
Close three of those stores right here. They're saying they're not throwing, they're not closing any of this. The Books Incorporated, at least that's what they're closing.
- [36:34]
Rebecca Schinsky
They're keeping nine of the 10. They have a small store in San Leandro that's not going to stay open. So they're keeping most of them. They'll be keeping most of the employees. Like hopefully that is a smooth transition for everybody. This is the thing I want James Daunt to come out and talk about. Like he's been on the media tour.
- [36:52]
Jeff O'Neill
No James Daunt quotes in these press releases.
- [36:55]
Rebecca Schinsky
Yeah, we had the James Daunt media tour last year of the like, look at the way we've turned around Barnes and Noble. The ship is headed in the right direction again. Barnes and Noble is back and Daunt was everywhere. This is a really interesting strategy. Barnes and Noble clearly sees value in these stores because they're giving them $3.25 million. Like that's not a big amount of money if you're Barnes and Noble. But it's not nothing. And also if you're thinking about the value of a bunch of independent bookstores, 3.25 million for nine stores they're going.
- [37:25]
Jeff O'Neill
To continue operating and probably the inventory they're in, I mean, I guess they're returnable.
- [37:29]
Rebecca Schinsky
So think about what that then says about the value of one of these stores. There's maybe there's some kind of strategy here beyond the financial piece of it. Books are a low margin business to begin with. Is this shoring up the whole industry against Amazon? Saving nine independent bookstores doesn't really do that. Is it Goodwill? Do you just have $3.25 million in goodwill lying around?
- [37:57]
Jeff O'Neill
Well, I think what it might be, as simple as anything, is what is more expedient if you're growing your percentage of physical books bookstore in retail locations in the U.S. it would take a long time to open nine new Barnes and Noble stores in the San Francisco Bay area. They just would.
- [38:15]
Rebecca Schinsky
Yeah. Find all the real estate, do all the legwork. That's a great point.
- [38:18]
Jeff O'Neill
And I wonder if the keeping of the identity is a feature or a bug. It may be a bug of, well, we can do this, but it's not going to work. If we rebrand these Barnes and Nobles, we're going to lose the business. And, and these stores aren't set up to sort of be integrated directly in. We want to keep the goodwill and associations that these places have with Books Incorporated. Because here's another data that we can never know is that once this transition is Done. And they're fully integrated into the Barnes and Noble board, whatever that looks like. What percentage of people walking into Books Incorporated will have any idea that it's owned by Barnes and Noble?
- [38:57]
Rebecca Schinsky
I would guess this will be loud in like an email newsletter to the Book Books Inc. Email list. But what percentage of people who shop there, especially as place a place as busy as the Bay Area, are signed up for the store's email list and are opening it regularly and paying attention to like, we're under new ownership. And here's how it's all going to work. If I had to guess, there's probably a very small percentage of the Books Inc. Customers who will be dialed into this, and a portion of those people will be upset about it. And to them, I guess I will say the same things that I said when Tattered Cover was acquired, and that's, you can either have your city without these bookstores at all, or you can maintain the bookstores and they will be under new management. And I think if you, if you consider the new management a lesser of two evils, you take the lesser of the evils. I don't consider this to be an evil at all.
- [39:44]
Jeff O'Neill
No.
- [39:45]
Rebecca Schinsky
I mean, to keep nine bookstores, I.
- [39:47]
Jeff O'Neill
Think it would, if I had my way, it would be they get to keep operating independently. But when you're involuntary chapter 11 and. And you're hemorrhaging cash, that's like magical thinking.
- [39:57]
Rebecca Schinsky
Yeah.
- [39:57]
Jeff O'Neill
To go that route. I wonder. I don't know. I had not heard of Books Incorporated myself. I had heard of Tattered Cover. They're just in order for this to be a real thing. I just don't know how many groups of five to ten stores in major metropolitan area are even exist. Right. If you wait for them to fall in chapter 11, like this is. Seems to be very. Not. Not predatory, but opportunistic. I don't think this is a strategy you can pursue at scale. Right. You can't say, okay, we're going to open up 100 new stores the next five years by buying the local chains in the top 50 metro, you know, metropolitan areas. You just can't do it.
- [40:34]
Rebecca Schinsky
You can't do it with chains. But this two is not quite a pattern, but two is a thing. Now that they've done it with Tattered Cover and they've done it with this, this establishes for other independent bookstores that might find themselves in similar situations or cruising toward a similar situation, that Barnes and Noble is open to a conversation about these things. And maybe you think, I want my city to continue to have this bookstore but the way we're running it, it's not working. Maybe Barnes and Noble can make that happen and you approach about an acquisition, you find a way to get out. I'll be really, really curious over the next couple of years if we see this happen with some standalones with some like onesie twosie independent.
- [41:15]
Jeff O'Neill
I just don't see how. I mean everything about the five applies times 10 to the onesie twosies. It just doesn't seem like it would make sense, you know, like there are chains, I guess. Like there's politics and pros. I mean there's not. I mean palace has a few locations. I mean that's never coming up for sale.
- [41:30]
Rebecca Schinsky
Yeah.
- [41:31]
Jeff O'Neill
I guess maybe more metropolitan areas has a local chain than not. It's not a chain. A group of stores that are more minimal. I guess if you were shopping in politics and pros you may run in to one former president Barack Obama shopping.
- [41:45]
Rebecca Schinsky
Really on the segue game today he.
- [41:48]
Jeff O'Neill
Released his this happened a couple weeks ago I think August 27th. We're mid we were out last week for a. Yeah. For holiday. Oh summer reads. And we now are looking at these lists instrumentally because we have there's glory at stake. Rebecca and there's some a little something for all of us that weren't Sharifa.
- [42:08]
Rebecca Schinsky
Yeah, that's right. Yeah. So we've got our fantasy league running that you can track in the Patreon. We'll be doing our final picks for those in a couple of weeks. But one of them, the summer reads don't count. But if you get some of your titles onto Obama's best of the year list you can get some glory.
- [42:24]
Jeff O'Neill
And last year they didn't overlap. Right. Like there's a way in which if you get on the summer you probably aren't on the end because last year.
- [42:30]
Rebecca Schinsky
Sometimes they overlap and sometimes they don't. Like sometimes the summer reads are a preview of what's going to be on best of the year and sometimes there's not any difference. But this looks like a ready to order Obama summer reading list. We've got Mark Twain by Ron Chernow. You got the Book of Records by Madeline Tienne. So like a little bit more obscure of a literary pick but it was out there and highly praised Abundance by Ezra Klein and Derek Thompson. King of Ashes by SA Cosby. Which which if there's an essay Cosby book out it's gonna be on I.
- [43:01]
Jeff O'Neill
Mean the three no brainers were the Twain abundance in the Cosby.
- [43:04]
Rebecca Schinsky
Right.
- [43:04]
Jeff O'Neill
Like if you were drafting not for.
- [43:06]
Rebecca Schinsky
Nothing like the Obamas have the rights to the SA Cosby books for adaptation, maybe the biggest surprise was Rosarita by Anita Desai, the Buffalo Hunter X Hunter by Stephen Graham Jones, A Marriage at Sea. Yes, I took that one. Sophie Elmhurst, our shared fave, but you got it in the Fantasy League Audition by Katie Kitamura, who is Government by Michael Lewis, and the Sirens Call by Chris Hayes. So a mix of you got your big dad nonfiction history, you get some literary fiction, you get a little crime thriller with King of Ashes, you're getting narrative nonfiction, and you get your not too spicy public policy, social science, government related stuff.
- [43:47]
Jeff O'Neill
And looking at the comments both on this post and others that I've seen, it seems like the reader reaction was most excited to see the Buffalo Hunter Hunter by Stephen Graham Jones on the list. That book is really having a year for a horror title that's not, you know, by a Stephen King or Grady Hendrix. Frankly, Graham Jones has had a long career. I got to talk to him earlier this year for First Edition. Had a wonderful conversation here. But this is, this is no longer sort of a dark horse. Like this is one of the books of the year.
- [44:14]
Rebecca Schinsky
Buffalo Horse. I have it in the Fantasy league and I feel great about that pick.
- [44:18]
Jeff O'Neill
I don't know that any of us have abundance and I think that is going to be hotly contested in our final trade swap, draft waiver wire episode that we're going to do a little bit later. Yeah, a good list. Very Obama list. I don't see anything here that blows my hair back. We've been tracking this a while. We have some sense of what the guy likes to recommend, so it shouldn't be a surprise to anybody there. We have our own books to recommend because it's time for Frontless Foyer brought to you by Thriftbook. Over 19 million things. Books, movies, DVDs, gifts, games. And if you buy something from Thriftbooks, you get free shipping in the US if it costs more than $15. And sometimes you may need to have a few things because you can find copies of books that you want to read, maybe even some things that are going to appear on Zero to well Read for four or five bucks in good condition, get three of them, 15 bucks free shipping. And not only that, if you do that, that purchase gets you closer to a free book as part of the reading rewards program. You can go sign up@thriftbooks.com thanks for them for sponsoring Front List FOIA. You have a little bit of three on a theme here because it's Memoir Corner.
- [45:23]
Rebecca Schinsky
I have been in Memoir Corner and it's a really interesting, like kind of dissonant trifecta. So I've got a truce that is not Peace by Miriam Toews, which is spelled T O E. I've never known to pronounce that.
- [45:36]
Jeff O'Neill
I can't remember it. It just doesn't stick in my brain.
- [45:38]
Rebecca Schinsky
I think I learned that when Women Talking when the film adaptation came out and she was, she wrote the book that it was based on and I heard it, I was like, oh, one of those. This is a kind of hard to describe book. It's a memoir that is about. It's her reckoning with the fact that her sister and her father both died by suicide. And she. She's thinking about that, thinking about her own mental health history, thinking about the choices that her family members have made, but she's also thinking about writing. And she's also really funny. Like a lot of it is just memories of stuff that happened in her family life. And those moments are really lovely and light. There are some genuine laugh out loud points. When she is six years old, her older sister gets her period and Miriam is the only one home. And her sister is just like, you have to go to the store, you have to buy pads. And Miriam has. She describes herself as this like 6 year old biking as fast, like Wicked witch style, just as fast as she can go and like sweat's pouring down her face and she's so on this mission and just like singing herself the Scooby Doo theme song in her head while it happens. It's so charming. And you get like kind of lulled into this, this sense of like these lovely memories that she's having. And then we take turns into reflections on her sister's suicide and her father's suicide and how those impacted her and sort of this bigger family history. But also the function of writing. Talk about a book that is overtly about art and writing. Why does she write? What does writing mean to her? How is it connected to these decisions and to her family's history? It's short, it packs a powerful punch. It's a Miriam Toews book, so it doesn't move in a linear fashion. I really appreciate how she weaves in and out. It's kind of a discursive style. I really enjoyed it. I guess I would not be surprised to see this like hit some best of lists, maybe not favorites. Like, it's tough to talk about and it's kind of tough to sit with, but it's really good. I listened to this American Woman by Zarna Garg based on your recommendation and I like got the kick in the pants to finally do it after I heard her interviewed on Amy Pont Poehler's podcast. It's as funny and just delightful, but also insightful and uplifting as you said it would be. A person who ran away from home at the age of 14 in India because her mother had died and her dad was trying to like shoo her off into an arranged marriage and she did not want that life for herself and just exactly how bleak and scary and dangerous that was and what it meant to come to the States to be with her siblings, to have people who took care of her and to get an education and to find independence and find a partner and raise a family. And then in her 40s to discover that she's really funny and to go into stand up comedy. And like in a matter of three or four years, she's gone from just do like anonymous open mic nights in New York City to she had a special on Amazon prime and I think there's a new one on Hulu. And she toured for part of Polar and Teeny Tay.
- [48:43]
Jeff O'Neill
That's right for Sarah. She opened for Polar and Faye in Portland in a she.
- [48:47]
Rebecca Schinsky
And she was terrific, gutsy. Like she just called her agent one day and was like, do Tina Fey and Amy Poehler need somebody to open on their tour? Because I should. And then they said yes, love it. It was really fun. I found myself like, you know, taking extra long walks and not minding that I was doing the dishes to listening to listen to it. And she also, I think, threads that needle like she's talking about really heavy stuff sometimes. And there's a point where it sounds like she's crying in the audiobook narration that really got me. But also just so funny and sees life through such a unique lens. And then I talked about it a little on the books episode, but I have finished it. I finished all the Way to the river by Elizabeth Gilbert, the new memoir about her relationship with a woman named Raya Elias, who was her best friend for decades. And then near the end of Raya's life, they were lovers. It is a. It's a love story. It is an addiction memoir. It is also a recovery memoir. I am kind of in awe of how Elizabeth Gilbert does this. Like it. There are parts of the book that are so terribly beautiful and then there are parts that are heartbreaking and then there are parts where it's like she has either found the answers to the universe, or she has gone completely round the bend. And maybe it's both.
- [50:02]
Jeff O'Neill
Like, she's tasting colors and, like, she.
- [50:06]
Rebecca Schinsky
Talks about having done a lot of psychedelics. And if you have ever spent time around people who have done a lot of psychedelics, some of this will feel familiar. Like, I've been in the yoga world long enough to, like, I call it crossing the mushroom meridian. Like, somebody who has done enough psychedelics that, like, something has permanently happened to the way that they see life and the world and the way that they interpret things. And I think Gilbert has done that. Part of the mission of the book is to encourage more open discussion, especially among women about love and sex addiction, to talk about recovery frameworks. But also, like, Liz, Gilbert is very smart and very aware of her public presentation. So I find the whole thing fascinating. Like, I completely believe that her reasons for wanting to tell this story are earnest and also that she's very smart for having those earnest reasons to tell this story. And the book is packaged in a really interesting way. People are going to talk about it. Like, I spent most of my reading of this as just like, the full eyeballs emoji.
- [51:09]
Jeff O'Neill
You know, I have not read it yet. I think that I probably will listen to it eventually. But I feel about this book kind of like I feel about those personal essays in the cut or like some completely bananas life experience story thing. I'm like, where is the line, if there is a line between some kind of cross sympathy, identification, learning as a reader, as a reader, not from. I'm not thinking about the author's point of view and just straight up voyeurism. And I. I've always found that to be an interesting kind of line. Is there such a thing as literary voyager where you're just there for the mess? And it's titillating. Kind of like watching Real Housewives. Like, it's the. It's the elevated version of watching Real Housewives of Dubuque, Iowa, or whatever you're doing. I just. I'm always interested in this.
- [51:58]
Rebecca Schinsky
It is interesting. This book doesn't feel voyeuristic to me because Gilbert is so good at being like, here's a really extreme thing that I did. But it was driven by an extreme version of these feelings and desires that everybody has. And she can ground the reader well enough in everybody wants to be seen, Everybody wants to be loved, Everybody wants to be taken care of. But her version of it was so, so desperate and so just, like, far end of the spectrum that she acts out in very extreme and often dangerous ways. But I think also because she's so in touch with how, like she says on the page, like, I was in my sickness, I was insane. I was being crazy. Like she's in touch with what that is like. So it doesn't put us in a position of. It doesn't feel Looky Lou to me. But there were, there just were some moments where I was like, I genuinely don't know, like what to do with the idea that when Raya was having a special birthday, Liz Gilbert believes that Raya's dead mother spirit inhabited her body. Yeah, I don't know what to do with it.
- [53:06]
Jeff O'Neill
That's just bananas. Like, I don't know something that's just bananas.
- [53:09]
Rebecca Schinsky
Right. And that it's presented like I, I totally believe Liz Gilbert that she believes that happened to her and I don't know what to do with that.
- [53:15]
Jeff O'Neill
Yeah, people brains are weird, I guess. News at 11. Two for me. Both of them will be appearing on First Edition before too long. A memoir. First up, debut memoir, the Water Bears by Sacha Bonet, coming out next week. Neither of them are yet. I'm sorry, you can go find them. You can google them. It is interesting. It is. It is a memoir, but also a family history. Matrilinear, mostly. Her mother, grandmother, and then to some degree her great grandmother. She calls them the water bearers. Black women who have carried the water and all that means in tradition, survival, the load bearingness of it, the weariness of it, and the complications and compromises thereof. The family story is remarkable. It's quite a. Quite an achievement as a book. It's unusually structured because it's from different people's points of view over time. And then Bonet's own synthesization of that experience into her own. But then also how she decides to be a mother, how she understands her own figureness as a mother and daughter. Quite wonderful. I got to talk to her. She refers to Toni Morrison as Mother Morrison at one point. So I immediately picked up on that for my interview in First Edition. Sounds like a remarkable group of people in and around Houston really, you know, for all of the 20th century. And going into a little bit before in Kaplan's Plot by Jason diamond, his first novel, someone. You and I both have a lot of affection for a writer critic, one of the. One of the good folk of the literary Internet. The setup here is it's set in the present ish day and the main character is coming back after burning out in a sort of a high tech job. His mother has been. It's a novel, I know if I said that his mother has been recently diagnosed with a terminal disease and they're trying to sort of reconcile at the end. But also as part of that reconciliation, he finds out that the family has this weird plot of land in Chicago. The main character has been living in San Francisco and he's come back and in trying to figure out what's going on with this plot of land and what to do with it. It's exploration of family history of this family of Jews that came over initially from Odessa at the early part of the 20th century and sort of all the way through. It's a food book. It's a Chicago book. It's a book about being a certain kind of American Jew. It's also a mob book because we find out that this family has been on the other side of the law to some degree. I really enjoyed it and I had a really good conversation with Jason. So I both hope everyone will check out those books, but also when the first edition interview comes out, take a look over there. So that's the Water Bearers by Sacha Bonet and Kaplan's Plot by Jason diamond on my list.
- [55:59]
Rebecca Schinsky
Good weekend books.
- [56:00]
Jeff O'Neill
Yeah, we're in it.
- [56:01]
Rebecca Schinsky
You're in the season.
- [56:02]
Jeff O'Neill
Yeah. God, are we ever. We are just getting ready to record our fall draft, which will appear on the Patreon next week sometime. Check that out over there you can. And shoot us an email podcastookriot.com also at the show notes@bookriot.com listen you can find a place to subscribe to zero to well, read. Subscribe to the new flagship Book Riot Newsletter and the Book Riot Podcast is a proud member of the Airwave Podcast Network. Rebecca, thanks so much.
- [56:38]
Rebecca Schinsky
Thanks so much for listening today. We hope you'll enjoy this audiobook excerpt from Bees in June by Elizabeth Bass Parman, provided by our sponsors at Harper Muse. Uncle Dixon.
- [56:50]
Narrator/Character in Audiobook Excerpt
Rennie cried as she rushed to his still frame. Kneeling beside him, she gently touched his face. What happened? The man slowly opened his eyes. I knew they'd tell you, he whispered.
- [57:05]
Jeff O'Neill
Who?
- [57:06]
Narrator/Character in Audiobook Excerpt
Rennie asked. The bees. They know I love you. He said his head and isn't making sense. I love you too, Uncle Dixon. Are you able to move? Pressing his arm against the soft grass, he struggled to sit up. Do you think you can get me over there? He nodded to the small iron bench about four feet away, crafted with intertwined vines and flowers. A central medallion that resembled a rose bloomed across the back. I just need a minute to collect myself. Rennie slid her arms beneath his body and tried to raise him to a standing position. I can't, she panted. I'm too weak. Let's both rest here a minute, then I bet we can do it. A few deep breaths will help. Soft wind brushed their cheeks as they sat in silence. A bed of yellow trout lilies basked in the sun, while in the distance Rennie spied pink coral bells bobbing in a wooded thicket. So peaceful, she thought, watching bees buzzing near hives that seemed to pulse with encouragement. I could stay here forever. I think I'm ready. Are you? Rennie asked. After he nodded, she was able to lift her uncle to his feet. She had a good grip on his arm, which felt as skinny as a twig in her hand. He had worked his 50 acre farm for decades, doing back breaking work every day. Although he seemed so frail, it was easy for Rennie to remember her uncle being strong and healthy enough to hoe the rose, strip the stalks, lift the bundles of leaves into the barn rafters, and manage the thousand other physical tasks a tobacco farmer had to perform. She could sense a vibrant man was still in there somewhere, just not where you could see with your eyes. If you looked with your heart, though, you could see the dashing man her aunt Eugenia had fallen in love with all those years ago in the foothills of Kentucky. Gingerly, he lowered his body onto the seat and gently patted the rose medallion as if greeting an old friend. Eugenia loved this bench, and so do I. Gesturing for Rennie to sit beside him, he said, I came down here to tell the bees something and lost my balance when I raised my hand to knock on their roof. He looked at his niece. I should probably tell you too. He paused to observe bees resting on the landing board at the base of one of the hives. A while back I had a stroke. Rennie gasped.
- [60:02]
Rebecca Schinsky
What?
- [60:03]
Narrator/Character in Audiobook Excerpt
I had no idea when. His voice was soft. You were in the hospital with Gabriel? Rennie flinched at the memory of the day that she both birthed and lost her only child. I was sitting on the porch with my new neighbor, Ambrose Beckett, and he noticed I was slurring my words and looked kind of funny. He chuckled. More funny than usual. I mean, he got me to the hospital in Nashville and the doctors did a bunch of tests, kept me there too long for my liking and sent me home. Said the stroke was mild, that I should be mostly okay. I wish you had told me. I could have helped you. You had your own life to deal with. He patted her hand. And Ambrose has been coming by to see about me yesterday afternoon. I asked him to take care of the bees and he said he would. Hearing Ambrose Beckett's name for the second time that day gave her pause. Both Nadine and her uncle thought a lot of the newcomer, but she made a mental note to learn more about this man. Her uncle had managed on his own for years, but now the independence she had always admired had shifted to vulnerability, and she needed to make sure this Ambrose Beckett could be trusted to be a part of her uncle's life, caring for what he held most dear. His bees. Her uncle added, I can still look after myself. Just need to get a little stronger. He studied her face. Something we can work on together as you go on without your Gabriel. After a moment, he said, I hope you know how much he loved you and cherished being your son. Her uncle had a well deserved reputation for telling the truth, no matter the topic. She had cried for so many things since her son's passing, and hearing from him that Gabriel was aware she was his mother and felt their bond, however brief, was a balm to her soul. Rennie lifted her face toward the sky, relishing the warmth caressing her skin before a cloud crossed the sun, instantly chilling her. I'll never understand why I was given what I desired most in the world, only to have him taken from me so quickly. She bowed her head and added, tiny says it was my fault, that I must have done something wrong to go into labor so early. There's a lot in this world we aren't meant to understand. At least not yet. His voice took on a flinty edge. But let me tell you one thing I do know. You were not responsible for your baby coming too early. Tiny is wrong to blame you and cruel to tell you so. He patted her hand. You know what I'm grateful for? All Gabriel ever knew was love. Think about how you both lived in those few hours. That perfection was something you needed to see. The bees and I agreed on that. He wrung his hands. It's so important that I tell them my news.