So, How's the Hamnet Adaptation?

Summary

Book Riot Podcast: "So, How’s the Hamnet Adaptation?" — Summary

Podcast: Book Riot – The Podcast
Episode: So, How’s the Hamnet Adaptation?
Date: December 10, 2025
Hosts: Rebecca Schinsky & Vanessa Diaz

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Episode Overview

Rebecca Schinsky and Vanessa Diaz dive deep into the film adaptation of Hamnet, based on Maggie O’Farrell’s acclaimed novel. They discuss how the adaptation stands on its own, compare it to the source material, unpack critical discourse around the film’s emotional impact, and reflect on casting, direction, and the music that underpins its power. Spoilers for both the book and film are present, as the conversation analyzes key differences and emotional beats.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Initial Impressions and Emotional Reactions

• Both Rebecca and Vanessa describe experiencing an intense emotional response to the movie, highlighting collective catharsis in audience reactions.
• Vanessa shares that seeing Hamnet before most people made it a solitary, raw experience:

  “We're all having feelings and don't know what to do with them right now because it was just such a big swell in particular at the end.” (06:08)

2. Background: The Story of Hamnet and Adaptation Approach

• Rebecca offers a concise summary of Hamnet’s historical background and explains the differences in how Agnes (aka Anne) and William Shakespeare are depicted in both the book and film.
• The adaptation chooses a linear timeline, contrasting the book’s time-hopping structure:

  “Where the book moves back and forth in time a whole lot, the movie is a pretty linear timeline.” (13:23)

• The movie starts with Agnes, establishing her mystical, natural persona, rather than focusing on Hamnet’s fever as in the novel.

3. Performance and Characterization

• Both hosts are sweepingly positive about Jessie Buckley’s performance as Agnes:

  “If you told me she actually gave birth to her child in that scene... I’d believe you.” (14:57)

• Paul Mescal’s turn as Shakespeare is noted for its restraint and complement to Buckley:

  “He’s the second fiddle to Agnes for most of the film and still, like, a very powerful second fiddle.” (15:25)

4. Visuals, Direction, and Sensory Experience

• Both hosts gush over the film’s lush visual language and Chloe Zhao’s literary, textured approach:

  “The whole thing is gorgeous, start to finish, and so carefully detailed and richly detailed.” (14:05)

• The chemistry between leads is given special mention—a scene-centric, visually intimate narrative.

5. Adaptation Choices: What’s Gained and Lost

• Missing from the film are much of Agnes’s “witchiness” and the interiority so vital to the book.
• Vanessa notes:

  “I wanted to see a lot more of Agnes witchiness fleshed out...but once I kind of settled into...relax and let the feelings just eventually kind of...see this for what it is I think I started to understand the genius of Chloe Zhao." (11:08)

• The film adds more direct references to Shakespeare and presents him more as a co-lead, a clear shift from the novel’s focus on the family, especially Agnes.

6. Invoking Shakespeare and Hollywood Additions

• The movie weaves in overt Shakespearean nods, such as lines from Romeo and Juliet, which Rebecca found Hollywood-esque:

  “There’s nothing in Maggie O’Farrell or history to tell us that he wrote Romeo and Juliet inspired by Agnes...I didn’t need that extra layer.” (25:13)

• The final act leans into Hamlet dramatization, possibly to ensure a broader audience connects the dots:

  “I wondered if that was a choice for folks who maybe weren’t going to make the connection.” (35:25)

7. Handling of Grief & Emotional Discourse

• The conversation pivots to the “grief porn” discussion, and both hosts robustly defend the film's emotional honesty:

  “I feel like this is really beautifully done in a way that I felt earned. And like, yeah, I cried like a baby, but I enjoyed it for lack of a better word.” — Vanessa (39:50) “The only thing...that really did not work for me...as Hamnet is dying, there are these shots of him on the other side of the veil...that was like a little much.” — Rebecca (32:20)

• They appreciate the historically-rooted, present treatment of death and grief, contrasting it with modern, more sterile depictions.

8. Music and Soundtrack

• Max Richter’s score is described as deeply affecting and integral. Vanessa shares background and personal impact:

  “If I hear that song, it doesn’t matter where I am, what I am doing, it will reduce me to a puddle of tears.” (47:03)

• Strategic use of music and silence is celebrated, especially the absence of score during Hamnet’s death.

9. Favorite Scenes and Notable Production Choices

• Improvised scene: The children's improvised “Macbeth witches” scene was done as a surprise for Jessie Buckley, enhancing authenticity (44:21).
• Chloe Zhao’s direction—intuitive, empathetic, visually lush—and the surprising casting backstory (originally Tom Holland was set to play Shakespeare).

10. Who Should (and Shouldn’t) See Hamnet?

• The hosts urge listeners to see Hamnet in a theater for full effect, emphasizing the collective experience.

  “Do not interrupt this movie...this is really intended to be two hours in the dark in a collective experience with other people.” (56:16)

• The film is recommended for those who “want to feel something,” fans of the book, Shakespeare enthusiasts, and anyone open to being deeply moved by art.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• On Jessie Buckley’s Performance:

  “She’s some kind of witch.” — Rebecca (06:06)

• On Emotional Impact:

  “As Jeff’s wonderful partner, Michelle, would lovingly put it, this is a five alarm snot bomb.” — Rebecca (19:03)

• On Chloe Zhao’s Direction:

  "Chloe Zhao has real range, and I feel like we're just beginning to understand what that actually means." — Rebecca (12:27)

• On the Power of Grief Depicted:

  “All art is trying to manipulate us.” — Vanessa (38:10)

• Describing the Ending’s Hope:

  “There is this beautiful understanding of, like, your grief is not my grief, but it is both grief. And I see you and you see me...I was sad, but it was also this really hopeful sadness.” — Vanessa (55:00)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [04:35] — Episode proper begins, Rebecca introduces Vanessa and jumps into Hamnet film discussion.
• [06:45] — Initial emotional responses; audience “sobbing in cars.”
• [08:05] — Brief on historical Shakespeare, Hamnet, and family backstory.
• [12:15] — Praise for Chloe Zhao’s direction and the film’s lush look.
• [14:05] — How the adaptation structures time and narrative.
• [14:57] — Jessie Buckley and Paul Mescal’s performances.
• [18:37] — The collective catharsis: audience responses and “tissue moments.”
• [24:37] — Hollywood additions: scenes referencing Shakespeare’s famous lines.
• [28:08] — Adaptation as interpretation: choices in focus and structure.
• [31:01] — Transition to discussing “grief porn” discourse.
• [39:50] — Art, emotional manipulation, and the realism/earnestness of grief in Hamnet.
• [44:21] — Favorite moments and production anecdotes.
• [47:03] — Max Richter’s music and impact.
• [52:51] — Who should see this film—a movie for the “feeling person.”
• [56:14] — Strong encouragement to see Hamnet in a theater.

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Final Thoughts

Rebecca and Vanessa conclude that the Hamnet adaptation is a rare and beautiful film—emotionally devastating but ultimately hopeful and healing. An example of how great art invokes real feeling, it is an experience best shared in the communal silence and collective catharsis of a darkened theater. The film is for fans of the book, lovers of Shakespeare, those interested in explorations of grief, and anyone seeking an immersive piece of cinematic art that is both lush and intimate.

Recommendation:
Go see Hamnet in a theater. Bring tissues. Let yourself feel it.

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Additional Resources Mentioned

• Even as a Shadow, Even as a Dream — Photobook by Agata Brzkowska, with lyrical contributions from Jessie Buckley and Chloe Zhao
• “Zero to Well Read” — Book Riot podcast feed with a Hamnet book deep-dive episode

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For more Book Riot Podcasts and content:
bookriot.com/listen
Patreon: patreon.com/bookriot

Transcript

[Rebecca Schinsky]

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This is the Book Riot Podcast. I'm Rebecca Schinsky and I'm joined today by Book Riot's Managing editor, Vanessa Diaz. We have both had the pleasure, privilege and sob fest experience of seeing the Hamnet adaptation. Thanks to friends at Focus Features for getting Vanessa access to a screening out in Portland and I was able to see it here in a theater in Richmond last week. And we are going to talk about the adaptation. We've done an episode of Hamnet specifically about the book over in the zero to well Read feed. If you want to take a deep dive into the book, you can hop over there, but we're going to get into the movie on its own. How is it as a work of adaptation, some key differences between the book and the movie, and some of the discourse that's been happening around the film. We'll wrap up with talking about who the movie is for, you know, what kind of viewer is going to like or appreciate the experience, and we'll try to start with some spoiler free stuff at the top, but before we jump in, we'll just take our first ad break.

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[Vanessa Diaz]

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[Rebecca Schinsky]

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[Vanessa Diaz]

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[Rebecca Schinsky]

Okay. Vanessa, thank you for being here.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Oh, this the spiritual preparation that went into this. I'm very happy to be here.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

You've had a little bit longer to sit with it. So tell me how you're feeling as you've had a couple of weeks now to reflect on Hamnet.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Yeah, it was interesting to have. I forgot, of course that's how movie screenings work. Is that I was going to have seen this film before there was anybody I could process with. And so it's funny, I knew, I mean, again, I read the book relatively recently before I even realized this was a thing we were going to do. It had just been one of those books that had been on my list for a very long time. Having also listened to the Zero to Woolworth episode, I'm also in the camp of people that was like, I don't think I. I don't think I was ready to read it in 2020 for all the misinformed reasons that had to do with, you know, plague stuff, which we'll talk about, or, like, pandemic. And then I read it because I just have, you know, end of year time to do so in my schedule. Like, my. My reading opens up a little bit with less professional obligations. Watched it, and I knew going in, I think I even said to a friend, like, oh, you know, brb, I'm gonna go have, like, a cathartic Shakespearean cry. Having read the book, I was like, there's no way that something's not gonna happen to me that will make me cry. I've heard wonderful things about Jessie Buckley. And then since having just nieces and nephews of my own, I feel like I'm a lot more sensitive to kid stuff than I might have been once upon a time. And then I watched it and have a brand new appreciation for Jessie Buckley. I want her to win all of this.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

She's some kind of witch.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Some kind of witch 100%. And I like, you know, I'm really interested to see where we each land on, like, the emotional punch of the movie. But I absolutely was almost the person that I. You jokingly rib.inzero to, well, read it. But, like, I almost recorded a video in my car. And it's funny because I kept seeing other people sitting in their cars also talking into their phones. I was like, we're all having feelings and don't know what to do with them right now because it was just such a big swell in particular at the end. So I. I thought it was beautiful. Taking some time to think on it. I'm really, yeah. Just jazzed to get into a discussion on, like, what emotional manipulation means to, like, different people, because I did. Really? Again, I don't know that. Yeah, I think I'm comfortable saying I love the film. But to say that you like this film that's ostensibly about something so achingly sad is a weird mouth feel. But, yeah, that's a little bit of where I've been.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I. I shared that feeling of, like, when. By the time I went to the screening, I knew that you and I were going to talk about it. And then the hard thing for the last, like, five days has been not.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Talking about it, not talking about it totally.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

And I, I, I felt that need to like, I made some voice notes when I got in my car right after of just like, these things are fresh. And here's stuff that I want to remember for talking about it for WR it just for folks who are tuning in, or maybe you have seen the trailers. I think that the marketing and the trailers for the film are doing a really good job of giving people a general overview of what happens in Hamnet. But if you're just jumping in the tldr is that before he was known widely as William Shakespeare, William Shakespeare was married to a woman named Agnes, or Anne Hathaway is how we've known her historically. But she is Agnes in her father's will, and so she is Agnes in Maggie o'. Farrell's. And in this adaptation that o' Farrell wrote with the director Chloe Zhao. And they had. First they had a daughter, and then they had a set of twins, one boy and one girl. When the twins were 11.

The boy died. In the historical record, there's no specification of how he died, but this is during the time where a plague season happens in most years, the way that we have flu season now. And so it has been widely believed that the boy whose name was Hamnet died of the plague. In Elizabethan English, Hamnet and Hamlet are the same thing, that N and L are transposable, interchangeable. And four years after Hamnet dies, William Shakespeare puts on Hamlet. That's the first production. And in that production, William Shakespeare plays the ghost, Hamlet's father. And that's kind of all we know about the real backstory here. The book is this lush and, like, really lovingly detailed, imaginative work that Maggie o' Farrell has created from the place of, like, what if? Like, who were these people and what was their life like spends a lot of time with Anges and, And like, I've seen, you know, some of the headlines being like, this is the backstory to Hamlet. And that's like, yes, but that's not. That's true. And it's also not the whole truth. But, yes, absolutely, by any stretch. So the book and the movie both give you how William and Anges meet each other, what their family life looks like, and then ultimately the death of Hamnet. And at the very end of the book, we see that Hamlet is coming out into the world. Let's just try to take the movie on its own, because the good rule of thumb with adaptations is way more people are going to see the movie than have read the book. What did you think about this just as a movie on its own. Let's talk about Hamnet that way worked for you. If anything didn't work. What didn't work for you?

[Vanessa Diaz]

Yeah, I definitely went into this cautiously for reasons that I keep referencing the podcast episode, but it was a great 1. About 0 to well read is that the book is so much about the interiority of the characters. There's not very much narrative that I definitely went in a little bit, like, how are they going to pull off? What to me is some of the beautiful intricacy of this book just being the interior stuff. And there is obviously there has to be more narrative. And I'm glad that I've had some time to reflect because I will say the beginning of the film, I was so braced for emotional impact that there was a piece of me that was like, oh, my gosh, we are missing some of that interiority. I'm not getting as much as what I wanted. I wanted to see a lot more of Agnes witchiness fleshed out. Some of the intricacies of her relationship with her stepmom or even with Shakespeare and his terrible father. Some of that I felt like I wasn't getting. And then I think the more I sat with it, I realized that Chloe was just what I. Chloe Zhao is Chloe. Like, I know her on a first name basis.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Your close personal friend.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Me and Chloe, Yeah. Chlo Zhao. No. Gosh, forgive me. If you ever listen to this.

The.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Earth is going to open up and swallow you whole for having done that.

[Vanessa Diaz]

It is. And then just stop talking now. You know why. But I felt like there was this really intentional build and that this. Yeah, the movie did try to give us much more like a family portrait. Because that, I think, is how you pull off the emotional gut punch that is this book without spending a bunch of time, like, just hearing somebody's inner monologue. So the scenery in particular, like, really blew me away. I thought it was really beautifully shot. Like, I just from.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

From like the very first moss looked so good on screen. The mossy, the ferns, the forest. It is silk.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Like this falcon, whatever. Yeah. Like, it's just that verdant beauty is so hard to look away from. Like, it's. It's just so stunning. And then between casting and then, you know, we won't do this now, but I have many, many feelings about the music and the score, all of which are mainly good. But once I kind of settled into, like, okay, relax and let the feelings just eventually kind of like, stop bracing and just like, see this for what it is I think I started to understand the genius of Chloe Zhao in a way that I'm not as familiar. I know of her work, but I have not spent time with her.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

It is an incredible thing that this movie comes from. A director who had her first really big break in the Marvel Cinematic Universe.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Yep. And that's the part that I had to keep coming back to. Like, huh? Yeah.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I mean, Chloe Zhao has real range, and I feel like we're just beginning to understand what that actually means and what it could mean for the future. I don't want to stray too much right now into book versus movie things, but I think it is helpful for folks going into the movie to know that the book starts off when Hamnet and Judith, his twin sister, are 11, and Judith has come down with the plague first. And we are looking through Hamnet's point of view as he's, like, searching for his mother and then running through town trying to find a doctor. He knows that his sister is sick, and he's trying to save her. And that's what I was curious, like, is the movie going to open this way? Will it do a lot of, like, grounding exposition about the world that we're living in first? And I think that Zhao and Ofarrel were really wise to flip it. And where the movie. Where the book moves back and forth in time a whole lot. The movie is a pretty linear timeline. So we start with Anges coming out of the forest with a kestrel on her arm and, like, twigs in her hair. And William, who, by the way, is not named in the book. He's never named. He's referred to as the son, the husband, the father, the tutor, the. Yeah, exactly right. In the movie, he's the not. Like, his name is not spoken aloud until very near the end when he's already become William Shakespeare. But we see them falling in. We see them meet, we see them fall in love. We see them have their first child and then her give birth to the twins. And it just. It moves through that progression right up to Hamnet's death and their grief over it. And it ends with the production of Hamlet, and they're in the Globe Theater. Like, it's. It just a. It's. The whole thing is gorgeous, start to finish, and so carefully detailed and richly detailed. I've. I used the word lush like, 25 times in a zero to well read episode because Ofarrel's descriptions of the world they live in are just so. Just complete. And I also, like you. I wondered, like, how will she Translate that onto film. How this, like, detailed interiority, how does it come across? But there's an intimacy to the book and an intimacy to the movie that I do think that they captured really beautifully. Jessie Buckley is a wonder.

[Vanessa Diaz]

I. I just want to be her friend. Like, I think I'm adding her to my list of, like, who do you want to have dinner with? Like, I think I would like to just talk to her. Like, she just. Yeah. Anyway, she's so, so wildly talented. And if you told me she is a new mother, newish mother herself. If you were like, by the way, she actually gave birth to her child in that scene. And also law. Like, I believe you. Like, she delivered it. So transcendent. Anyway. Yeah. Oh, I just. I transition too hard. Yeah.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Like, I think transcendent is a good word. There are truly transcendent moments in the film. And Paul Mescal as the husband, the father, the son. William Shakespeare is like, he's got so much star power. And I felt like he was masterful at dialing it back to, like, he's the second fiddle to Anges for most of the film and still, like, a very powerful second fiddle. But this is a story largely about her and about womanhood and motherhood through, like, that's a big through line. But he manages to just be, like, charming and a little bumbling. And it kind of captures that in real life, when they met, Shakespeare was 18 and Anges was in her mid-20s. And he just, like, does not know what he has gotten himself into. He is, like, way out kicked his coverage getting this woman. And he knows it and is just in awe of her. I thought their chemistry was beautiful. And there's scenes of them just, like, walking in the forest and sitting on roots of these giant, gorgeous trees while he tells her the story of Orpheus and Eurydice.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Oh, that scene. Which as, like, a little Easter egg, apparently the sound that we're getting at that particular part of the score is specifically using the. Oh, my gosh. It's like. It's a Kathara harp. Katar harp. But it is specifically meant to mimic the fact that the Orphist, he played the harp in Greek mythology. Just. There's so many little bits to this movie that are so thought out that I could go on for, like, two hours. If.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I think as a movie. It is really wonderful. There was sobbing all around me in the theater.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Readers or listeners, I should say, at some point it was thought that maybe Jeff and I. I should just say Jeff and I were both invited to this Greeting, I guess, is the easiest way to put it. For reasons of other obligations, Jeff was unable to join. And I honestly don't even know that this is a thing. I think he said he probably won't be able to see it because of what he knows it would do. I cannot imagine a more awkward experience than it would have been to be sitting next to and just like, are you okay? We're gonna talk about it on the podcast. Like, I am so thankful that that did not come to fruition.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Oh, yeah, that story does exist in book riot lore, but it was between our sales director, Jan, and a former employee here who got tickets to see a screening of Room.

[Vanessa Diaz]

And the two.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Of them went and just, like, sobbed their eyes out. And they still talk about it. That's fantastic. I didn't, I think, because the book was so fresh.

[Vanessa Diaz]

So fresh for you.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I went to see the screening, like, the day after we recorded the zero to well read episode. And I was watching, knowing we were going to talk about it. So I think the critical remove did me a favor with the emotional distance. I will watch it. I'll probably go see it again. I want to. Yeah, I expect to be. When I can really let myself sink into it, I expect to be, like, very moved. But as the lights came up at the end of my showing, the woman behind me had a whole, whole box of tissues on her lap. And I was like, that's how you do it.

[Vanessa Diaz]

I have heard multiple podcasts, recordings about this now because I was so desperate to, like, engage with some sort of discussion, and I couldn't because no one else had seen it. And that story repeats itself across pretty much everyone's experience. There was a, gosh, somebody on. Was it pop culture happy hour, I think, from NPR that said that he was sobbing so hard that a woman he did not know at one point, like, reached over and, like, grabbed his hand and was like, are you okay? Not really.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Like, I think it's one of those moments where the social divisions fall a little bit. Kind of like when you hit really bad turbulence on a plane and you're just holding hands with the person next to you. Yeah, I totally believe that that's happening in theaters all over the country now with him. It's, as Jeff's wonderful partner, Michelle would lovingly put it, this is a five alarm snot bomb. Parentheses, complimentary.

[Vanessa Diaz]

And it's not just, you know, if I'm getting ahead, you let me know here. But, you know, there's. There's. The plot itself is primed to, like, you know, you're probably gonna have a sob unless it's just terribly done in which it wasn't. A young. A mother losing a child, period, using this lung. Sorry, you. Losing a very young child, the way that the child dies. And because you think it's, you know, the. And again, if I'm getting ahead, you let me know. But essentially, it's this entire time, we think it's the other twin. It's Susannah, that is going to pass because. Sorry, Judith. Yeah, thank you.

Because she's the first one to have contracted it, but she's the one with the bubo. She's the one that Anges is trying so desperately to heal. And her twin, of course, is, like, spending all this time Hamnet and does this really beautiful thing where, you know, he wants to trick death. So you're just primed anyway, based on just the book material itself, that you're gonna have a reaction because it's just tragic. But again, Jessie Buckley, the way she portrayed grief, because it's not. You know, I can think of a million TV shows and movies right now that I'm like, yeah, that falls into the camp of emotional manipulation. There's this restraint in her reaction before she fully lets go in a way that feels bordering on feral and the way that I imagine you would feel if you were going through something like this. I don't know how you stand a chance, especially on a second watch, of not feeling that gut punch, because I definitely had to. Like, I was batting my eyes. And as I told her, I got you into the most awful piece of theater pizza I've ever had in my life. It was cardboard with sauce, and holding that in one hand, I had to set it down because I was actually moistening it with my tea. So bad. Yeah. It's just that that performance is something else. It's wild.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I mean, she's the front runner, I think, for the best actress situations now. And the film. Just yesterday, Golden Globe nominations came out. As we're recording, the film was nominated for best pict. It's gonna be up for all the things.

Okay. Was there anything that didn't work for you?

[Vanessa Diaz]

And I don't even know if you could say didn't work, because I imagine this is just a situation of having to make a lot of decisions about what to pack into this narrative. But I did like that the book and for. Well, one, this is a passage that I think you also talked about on the show. The fact that we weren't able to get some of those really beautiful passages about how the flea and all the interiority of how this treat, you know, fleet travel, the monkeys ship. Yeah, exactly. And I knew that, that we, I knew. Right. I don't, I don't know that there's a way you could have portrayed that that made sense for this film. And I also felt like we got a lot more of Anges's. Just her kind of the shape of who she is and how that was built around her own experience. And they do a little bit of it, of course with, you know, they do show the flashbacks to like her mother. But there was more of it in the book that I felt like really shaped her kind of witchy outlook that I would have liked. But I also cannot tell you that I know a. To have pulled that off while still moving the story along. So I don't. I don't even know if you could say didn't work so much as that. There's always going to be. When a book is this interior and this narrative not lacking so much as not not dependent on it, like you're always going to get some of that that's missing. But I don't even. I feel like she made up for it in other really beautiful ways with the casting. So, yeah, that's. I think I land on like it's mostly what I wanted.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah. I think for me there wasn't anything like the subtractions weren't a problem for me because as you're saying, there's always gonna be stuff that you can't get to the screen. The difference between a 300 page book and a two hour movie is pretty significant. Some of the additions were challenging for me, but I think that's personal idiosyncratic stuff. One of my personal resistances to reading the book, I hadn't until a couple of weeks ago was that I tend not do historical fiction about real people. And if I had known that the book is really not about William Shakespeare and is really also not about the backstory of Hamlet at all, that Hamlet happens in the very last scene and it still functions. The reveal that this is what Shakespeare has been writing and this is what it looks like. And here's the character. All of that functions to show Anya so what her husband has been feeling. If it brings them back together, they've been sort of in their silos of grief and having a hard time reaching each other. And some of that anger, like misdirected anger from the loss of their son gets pointed at each other and her seeing the play at the very end of the Book is kind of a, like, oh, a big moment. Yeah, yeah. This is, it's very powerful.

So that there were more nods to the Shakespeare of it all throughout the movie is a very Hollywood thing to do. And it makes total sense.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Yeah, that's what I was gonna say. Like, I think it makes sense, but. Yes, I know what you mean.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah. As a movie, it makes total sense that after they go for one of their lovely romantic walks in the woods, we see Paul Mescal up in his attic bedroom.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Right.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

We see him writing like, you know, Juliet is the son, you know, and it's. And like there's nothing in Maggie o' Farrell or history to tell us that he wrote Romeo and Juliet inspired by Agnes. He might have. Who knows? But that they sort of create that in. And then there are, there are other famous lines from Shakespeare that make their way in that I, like, I felt a little bit like, okay, I don't care that this guy is Shakespeare. I think that's one of the things that makes the story so powerful is that this is just such a human story about connection and loss and grief. It could be about anybody family. Right. That the, the layer of Shakespeare is additive and I guess I didn't need that extra layer. But I, I wouldn't say it doesn't work.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Yeah, I agree. I think if I didn't work, for me, I was gonna say, if I had to, like, my opinion there is that She, I think struck a nice balance between like the two camps of that. Right. Whereas, like, I'm gonna give it something because there's people who are going to be coming this fear for a little bit.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Like a Shakespeare in Love.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Yeah, exactly. So, like, here's your little nod. Here's Billy Shakes practicing the like beats of the iambic pentameter, you know, under the moonlight. And then they're the rest. Yeah, there's just enough of it, I feel like, to potentially appeal to those masses without leaning full blown into it. Like, I guess if you're going to strike a balance between those two tent poles, I think that's probably as good as you could do. But I, I agree with you. Like, I. There didn't need to be as much of it, but also it gave Paul Moscow the ability to kind of flex for a bit and I enjoyed that.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, yeah, that's true. Like the movie is much more of a two hander than the book is. There's a lot more of Will on the screen than there is on the page.

[Vanessa Diaz]

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[Rebecca Schinsky]

How did you feel about it as a work of adaptation? And we can stray now into the key differences between book and movie. So I don't know that we can really say that there are spoilers. Spoilers for this. Like you know what's going to happen in this movie when you go in the child dies. Yeah, there's not. Yeah, there's not a surprise twist. But this is our spoiler alert for if you don't want to hear the particulars that are different, this is probably a good time to jump out for a bit.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Yeah, I honestly think this works really beautifully as an adaptation. And of course in part that likely is due to the fact that Maggie o' Farrell co wrote the screenplay. So there is, you know, that. Which apparently she was really hesitant to do. She was pretty ready to move on and like do other stuff. But Chloe Zhao came a Colin and was like, no, but you gotta. And I don't remember if it was the casting that eventually like tipped her hand. But again, for all a person who went in with so much kind of like, oh, are they gonna get that interiority? I feel like you get it, even if it's in a different way. Like, this film does spend so much time just painting. And this is the part that at first I almost balked at. In moments that I feel unarty where I was like, okay, like, I don't, you know, let's get, get. Keep going. But no, I understood now why she spent so much time with the family. Portrait of it all just showing, like you said, first, them falling in love, getting it on in the apples, among the apples.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Although doing it in the apple cellar is so much funnier in the book.

[Vanessa Diaz]

So much funnier, especially with all the details of, like, no, the apple.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Like, yeah, like, it's beautiful and it's sexy in the movie, but the scene in the book is so funny.

[Vanessa Diaz]

I don't know why. I also was really tickled that in that scene, like, they talk about how the kestrel is, like, chilling in the corner with a hood on. And that just made me laugh. The bird is like, I didn't ask to be here. Yeah.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

In the book, that's the reveal that they're having sex is like, it's through the. Like, the bird is hearing sounds and breath picking up. And then. And then you're like, oh, there's a rhythm happening. Oh, the apples are all rolling around in their shelves.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Ah, got it, Got it.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Knocking boots.

[Vanessa Diaz]

So obviously there's pieces like that that you know you weren't going to get. But, like, spending time with them as they fall in love through the pregnancy with the family and the idea of watching Shakespeare and Agnes Hathaway just being parents is a thing I wasn't sure that I was going to be ready for if it was going to lean into the pat. But it didn't feel that way. It felt like it was like, we're going to paint a picture for you of how unexpected it feels when loss comes knocking because you've settled into this beautiful comfort of just love, companionship and parenthood and just having a family and finding ourselves. And so that the gut punch that you do eventually get when the thing that you knew all along was going to happen does happen, I thought was really well served by all of those little place sets because you almost forget for a second that it's going where it's going because you're just watching them be happy.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I love the way you put that. And I think that that will help us move into the. Is this grief porn discourse here? In a minute. Because to me, it feels really Earned. We understand their pass pain because we saw them fall in love. And also, not for nothing, we have seen that Anyas's family life was pretty miserable. She has an evil stepmother. Shakespeare's family life was very difficult. His father is emotionally and physically abusive of him and he's scared of that. Like up through his meeting Anas and they're starting a family and then he's worried that it's going to be redirected onto his son. Like they. That this happiness that they found with each other is so poignant because of the sadness that they've already experienced in their own lives and that you can know what's coming.

And it is still so effective.

Honestly, the only thing now that we're talking about knowing what's coming, the only thing that really did not work for me in the film was that as Hamnet is dying, there are these shots of him on the other side of the veil. Like literally shot through a gauzy, like, linen veil. And he's in this big empty room.

[Vanessa Diaz]

I had forgotten about that. I apparently blocked it out. Yeah.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

And we're like, we can understand that he's crossing over and that this space that we're seeing him in is death and he's sort of lingering there as his mother is holding him and crying over him. That was like a little much.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Yeah. I don't actually think we needed it either. Now that upon further again, I think I was probably like looking at this through tears of my own and almost forgot that it was the gauze of the film and not the gauze of like my contact lenses being fogged. But the book is already packing like again, such an emotional punch. To think I've said like 12 times now, but it is. I don't think we needed that little bit to like, be swept away by the feelings of it all. Like, we all understood that this is what was happening. I don't know that we needed to see Young Little. I forgot what his first name is. But yeah, the little boy, Jupe, I think is his last name in real life. Like, you know. Yeah. Officially leaving to the other. We didn't need that, but it's cool.

Yeah.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

And that just other key differences. Like there is a lot more Hamlet in the film. Like the last. What would you guess, 20 or 30 minutes maybe. Based on.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Yeah, I think so.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Where Anya hears that her husband is not in fact working on the comedy she thought he was working on. And it's. It's a tragedy and it's called Hamlet. And her evil stepmother is the One who gives her the playbill that informs her of this. So she goes off to London and goes to the Globe and sees the play.

Like, there's a really sizable chunk of Hamlet that we see on screen. Several scenes are acted out. We get to see Paul Mescal as the ghost. Doing a great job with Shakespeare. I don't know what his background with performing Shakespeare is, but, like, like, excellent.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Based on some interviews I've seen, he does seem to have a pretty good. I don't know if he's done stage production, but, like, he was able to answer some pretty specific questions about, like, Shakespeare and different plays. So I would like to think that he spent time with it.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, it seems like it. And that's. I mean, it's Hamlet. It's so compelling. And watching Jesse Buckley watch it is so compelling. And then my critical brain was like, this is a cheat code. Like, Hamlet is going to be moving and it's going to be riveting if it's done well. And it just felt like the movie is already so good that you don't need 20 minutes of Hamlet on screen. But I also wasn't really, like, mad at it.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Yeah.

But I walked away wondering from that because most of the people that I'm seeing watch it. Definitely seem to have a pretty good familiarity with the fact that this is an adaptation, etc. But then I heard a pop culture podcast the other day that, you know, nobody on the panel had, like, read the book and did not seem super, super familiar with Shakespeare enough in the way that everybody sort of is. Right. Like, you know, it's like, I see way. But I wondered if that was a choice for folks who maybe weren't going to make the connection, which I don't know how you don't make it.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

You know what? I hadn't thought about that, but I.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Totally, you know, like, if you are not as well versed, especially in, like, yeah, Language.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Here's what Hamlet is exactly.

[Vanessa Diaz]

And, like, what's happening in this scene, like, specific. Specifically what you are watching, that he is the ghost that he. You know, like. And so him spending all that time with the actor that plays Hamnet Hamlet and, you know, going. Making him repeat the sections, like, over and over. I felt like that was a little bit of the nod to, like, in case you're not gonna pick up on that, I need you to know that this is where he was going with it because he is injecting his grief and his feelings about his dead son into this, like, most famous place. Yeah. Which is another little detail I don't know if you clocked, because I only clocked it recently, that the actor who plays Hamlet.

Is the older brother of the little boy who plays Hanne.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

They look so much alike. I had not made that connection.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Yeah, apparently, like, the older one was good job first. Yeah. And they were like, talking about there's a whole beautiful interview with him where they're like, they're both on the panel. It's very cute because obviously the adult is like an adult. And then the little boy is sitting next to him, like, I'm just happy to be here. And apparently he was, like, handpicked by Chloe Zhao. Like, would your little brother want to do this? He's like, I'll give him a call. And it was also like a, you know, kind of. There was a chord that got struck there just because there really is an actual connection between the scenes. That's incredible that that was really smartly done. But, yeah, anyway, that's a long winded way of saying, I wonder if that's specifically what the purpose of those scenes played was. In case you're not up on your Elizabethan English. Yeah.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

And they do get in the to be or not to be soliloquy. But with William Shakespeare, like, standing on a ledge contemplating jumping into the river. He's depressed. It looks like maybe a moment of suicidal ideation. And he does the whole to be or not to be thing. And that was the one moment that I was like, all right, this is too much.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Why are we doing this? You're quite right.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

But it's Shakespeare and it's beautiful and Hollywood loves Shakespeare.

It doesn't by any means dampen the impact of. Of going to see it. You've talked a little about the, like, writing that's been done about emotional manipulation. There have been headlines about is Hamnet grief porn. I think that I'm hearing both of us say we don't think so, that our answer is no, but I'd like to hear your thoughts about that.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Yeah. I sat with this for a bit because I am famously amongst my friends anyway, a person who is, like, so deeply unsentimental about some things and then so much about others that I was like, you know, and I think I been contemplating for myself, I guess, like, how whether or not the discourse about emotional manipulation has now tipped too much into, like, anything that makes you feel an emotional. Anything is considered emotional, you know, like manipulation.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

All art is trying to manipulate us.

[Vanessa Diaz]

That is literally what I was about to say is, like, that is that's art. Like, it is trying to manipulate you. It is not a bad thing. It's my. The thing I default to a ton is just, does this feel realistic and does it feel earned? I kept thinking, my. My best friends, if they listen to this or I know what they're already thinking, which is that they've been trying for years to get me to watch the show. This is us. And I kept. No disrespect to any of the people on that lovely cast, but, like, Milo Ventimiglia has been cashing a check on that show for I don't even know how many seasons, and he is dead in episode one. Sorry if I spoiled that for you. But, like, he's a dead dad. Oh, my God. Shout out to the Scam Goddess podcast. Lacy Mosley, the comedian, constantly makes a reference to this where she. Like, they're like two seasons in at randomly, they'll just be like, my daddy died. Because they referenced the dead dad so.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Many times in A Dark Night of the Soul. I've marathoned this is Us during COVID Oh, my gosh.

[Vanessa Diaz]

That is so surprising to me, knowing who you are. I know. And.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

And I am here to say it is much closer to emotional manipulation in a bad way.

[Vanessa Diaz]

And it's not that it's not enjoyable. I have. I've watched several episodes of it. I was just like, hey, I can't have a nightly appointment to cry, like, I, you know, et cetera. So I say all that to say that this story that only feels super realistic, it is rooted in reality. Right? We do know that they lost this super young son and they know the tragedy that it would have been in the plague and just everything around it. And again, you spend so much time getting to that grief just seeing this family's sort of quotidian life in the lead up that I don't know that we can call that grief porn just because it makes you feel the grief. Like there is.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I think that's right.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Yeah. Like, that's where I land on it. And I feel like this is really beautifully done in a way that I felt earned. And like, yeah, I cried like a baby, but I enjoyed it for lack of it. Where I was like, yeah, I feel.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I really like your criteria of is it realistic and is it earned? And I think that rubric is very helpful here. Like, the joke I made on zero to well read was like, grief porn would be like if Nicholas Sparks had written this story, like, where it's played for the effect of being sad. And that's not what's happening here? This is a sad thing. They're portraying way. There was no way around that.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Exactly.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

And as I watched it, the thing that I thought was, like, they're so close to it, like, that Agnes is holding her son while he takes his really terrible last breaths. And then his body is in the home until the next day that she's washing it and they're. She's sewing his shroud and they are like, with. They are with death in a way that we are not with death anymore in 2025.

[Vanessa Diaz]

So smart. Yeah. And. Yeah.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

And that I. That I think is what might be behind this. Like, is this grief porn discourse? Like, it's. It's certainly not wallowed around in. In the book. I didn't think it was wallowed around in at all in the movie. But Zhao, like, sits in it.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Yeah.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

And. And I don't even. I'm hesitating to say lingers, because that. I don't think that there's any unnecessary time spent with the death, but there is time spent with the death. And I think it's that.

In media now and just in life, people die and they are immediately taken off screen or they die off screen. They die in a hospital, and they're just like, you have the moment, and then it's over. And someone else else cleans the body and someone else readies it for burial. And it was that presence that, like, this is. And this is not the first time the people in this family have experienced this. That Will's mother is with Anges when this happens. And she lost two children when they were young. She's done this before. And I found it to be really beautiful and almost inviting in a. Like, should we do it this way? Should we reclaim some of this? Like, maybe some of the sobbing is that none of us or very few of us have that experience in real life of. Of actually being with our loved one in that way as they pass. And that you get to. There is something cathartic about watching it happen.

[Vanessa Diaz]

That is something. So, you know, we'll get one to what you just said, not only was there all of that after, but there's so much of. And that Anges herself is this healer. Right. And this witchy person, and she has spent so much time trying to heal her child that she, you know, quote unquote, missed that it was the other one who was going. And, like, the emotional pact, like, yeah. Impact of that alone, I'm like, how do you not pull this particular. You'd have to have tried really hard, I feel like, for you not to have an emotional react, for you to be like, well, he's gone now. At least you got a spare. Like, that's weird. So that was always going to feel that way. And I thought a lot about. I spend a lot of time talking to other people about this, but that one of the things that I appreciate the most about the particular culture I come from, being a Mexican American, is that we do have a lot of ritual and celebration around death in a way that it has been really interesting to me to observe other people's capacity to grieve or not grieve or, like, how well they deal with loss because so much of that is at such a remove and it's not conversed and not, like, meditated upon that. I think it just feels different. And that obviously is very different. This is Elizabethan England. It's not the same thing. But that reminder that death has looked so different in the way that we process and deal with it. And then, of course, then by consequence, have to grieve. It was just so different. And it felt like every scene served a purpose. None of it felt like we were lingering just for the sake of it. Like, this is, in theory how this would have played out. And that is going to be emotionally heavy.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, I totally agree. I think, you know, like, the media landscape being what it is, people are looking for clicky headlines. I'm going to be mad about the grief porn clicky headline for a while. Like, this is a beautiful movie. Let's just let a beautiful movie be a beautiful movie. Like, we don't need to have a backlash.

[Vanessa Diaz]

No, like, oh, there's so many details about the way it was filmed. Like, I did, you know that one of my favorite scenes from this movie. If we are okay doing that right here, let's do it. The scene again, just painting the picture of, like, a happy family where Jesse Buckley is sitting on the steps of their home and, like, Paul Mezcal comes up from behind her and, like, covers her eyes. And it's because the kids are putting on essentially the three witches from Macbeth. And, like, fairness, pal, that scene was completely improvised. Like, Jessie Buckley didn't know what was happening. Paul literally did cover her eyes. And then the kids broke out into. Or, you know, improvised is maybe not the right word. And it was a secret from Jessie Buckley. That much I know. So her reaction, where she just busts out laughing and is, like, completely overtaken by how delighted she is by this performance and little, you know, Hamnet sneaking through the Grass and stuff. Like, all of that was authentic. Like, you got to see her reaction on screen. And I feel like those kinds of detail. Or like, the fact that Paul Mezcal apparently really did leave the set and was gone, like, during the scenes where Shakespeare leaves. So did he. So he was apart from the cast and from the kids and from the family for that time. So that it really did feel like when he was returning, that he was indeed returning and had been away and now it's time to leave. And, like, the tenderness of the scene with Hamda, he's like, but, you know, be brave. Oh, my God. I would, like, cry if I think about it too hard. So again, earned is the word I keep using. But, like, those little details are not, to me, like, emotionally manipulative in a bad way. They're just like, this is. This is what happens when you're super happy, and then a terrible thing happens to you, like, ugh, so hard.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

And this, like, refuge that they create with each other and with their kids from the world, but also from the. Yeah, from their own families that they. And their families of origin, the experiences they had growing up. That is. That is such a. Such a wonderful scene. I think the opening is my favorite. Like, so good. We open with, like, Anges curled up on the forest floor in the roots of this giant tree. And there's a Mary Oliver poem about, like, finally you have, like, done all you can, and you pull from the ground the muddy skirt of your roots. And I was just like, somebody over there is reading some Mary Oliver. I know it.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Yep. No, I. I can believe that.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

But them meeting and, like, that flirtation when she's got the kestrel and he gets really close to the bird, and they just have this electricity between them. And she's like, I'm not gonna tell you my name. And when he says, you'll tell me when we kiss, and you're like, ah, here it comes.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Yeah. So good.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

It's just wonderful, that chemistry, like, right from the get go, that they're just so drawn to each other. I'm gonna clear out now and give you a moment to talk about the music.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Oh, gosh. Okay. So I did not know anything about it going in because I just didn't do too much research about the film. I wanted to just, like, let it happen to me, as I said. And then, you know, flashing forward to the end, and I'm gonna work my way back during that last scene, which I also really love. And it is a scene where essentially, as Hamlet is being performed Jesse Buckley, as Agnes, kind of finally, like, understands, right? She understands that her husband has written this play out of grief and that. That this person playing essentially, who is her son, if he had lived and grown. And there's this whole griefy. Oh, like one. The ending monologue, apparently it is organic that she reached out and just put her hand out. Like, that was all Jesse. Like, she did it because she just felt it in the moment. And then a bunch of other people, all the extras also reached out their hands. And that's where you get that iconic scene. Like, it was not scripted. And the song that plays at that as that's about to happen is a song called on the Nature of Daylight by the brilliant Max Richter. That if I hear that song, song, it doesn't matter where I am, what I am doing it, it will reduce me to a puddle of tears. It is one of those pieces of music that. And I didn't even stumble upon it in media. It came on, like, my classical playlist while I was out for a walk. And I stopped at one point and put my hand on a tree to just, like, feel feelings. I was like, what is this heartbreakingly.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Beautiful feeling putting your hand on a tree to handle music? Feelings is perfect.

[Vanessa Diaz]

So. So me. But it is like. And I encourage you to go listen to it if you haven't. It is just this really beautiful, string heavy song that it starts really, really deep, Deep, like, basic tone. And the minute I heard it, I. I in the theater went, oh, no. Because I was like, oh, this is. This is the end. Like, I'm going to sob. It has played in iconic episodes of T. It was part of the Arrival soundtrack. It played in that really beautiful episode about Frank and Bill on the Last of Us. Like, it's just the song that a lot of people choose. You want to feel a thing. And that episode ruined me, right? For good reason. And that also plays there. So he ended up. He did the whole score. And the reason he was chosen for, or that that last song anyway, was chosen for that scene, which again, was not written that way, both musically or in its actual, like, text, was because Jessie Buckley was feeling a little frustrated after four days of filming and was driving when that song came on a podcast. And she says it cracked something open in her. And she was like, hey, Chloe Zhao, like, we need to include, like, I. I figured out how I'm gonna do this last seat. And everybody was like, yep, cool, let's do it. Let's rewrite the whole thing. And it is so beautiful. The whole Score, now that I know it's him, makes so much sense. Like that that particular song is from an album that he wrote in 2004 as a form of protest against the invasion of Iraq. And he was specifically wanted to write a song that used, like, really dark sounds and materials to make something light. He calls it like a palindrome. So, anyway, the music is really brilliant. And like, I think I mentioned earlier that he does include some Easter eggs where he uses that Kithara harp in the scene with Orpheus, Eurydice. He samples a lot of actual Elizabethan era instruments to kind of mirror what's going on. Including, I just love the names of them, the Hurdy Gurdy and the Nickel Harp, which were just fun to say. He used a lot of choral music that only had women's voices because he wanted that to sort of mirror the importance of the woman and, like, really tapping into, like, this is an Anya story, which it is. It just is. So all of that brilliant information, plus just the beauty of the work that he. And apparently he did a lot of it, just within 30 minutes of reading the script was like, oh, I know. I want to go with this is just really adds to the emotional gut punch in a way that, again, I heard that song, I was like, oh, no. Like, this is about to be so bad. But it was such a beautiful scene and I am going to go watch it just to feel something.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I mean, the score is remarkable. Like, I didn't know anything about Max Richter or the background of it, but I noticed just moments where I would pop a little bit outside myself while watching to be like, oh, wow, the music here is really excellent. And then then during. Like the. During Hamnet's death, there's no score. And I always appreciate that when filmmakers know when to pull back. Like, we don't need a soundtrack here. There would not have been a soundtrack in that room. It's just these people and their breath and, like, their screams and what is happening to them. And then when it picks back up, at some point, I noticed there was music again, but. But you don't notice that it's starting to happen. It's not jarring at all. It's just so. So masterfully done.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Yeah. The beginning of that song is literally just. Just like one single little, like, violin or, like, you know, bass, whatever. It's just this, like, hum and that. So it's. It's really brilliant because, like I said, it doesn't jar you out of the moment. It is very, like, let me guide you into this.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Spotify wrapped next year is really going to be something when you go back into the Max Richter zone.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Such a mess. I absolutely went down the, like, oh, I'm gonna go back and listen to. I literally have a playlist called I Just Want to Feel Something Something. And there's lots of Max Richer on there.

And he's brilliant. And, yeah. Knowing. I'm actually really glad that I didn't know he did the score because it allowed me just to get into it for fun and then realize, oh, yeah, that person that I already make a big fan of. Yeah, great job.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

That was just wonderful. The whole package is just so moving. Like, this is, I think, the way that I want art to function of. Like, you're going to feel something and it will be real and in your. To steal your rubric. It'll be realistic and it'll be earned and just remarkable to be able to translate a book that is so interior into a film that can feel both, like, epic and deeply intimate. On that note, Vanessa, who do you think this movie is for? Like, my original question in the notes is who will like it? But I'm not sure that like is the appropriate verb here. Who will appreciate it? I think you can love this movie.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Yes.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Just. Just like feels too, I don't know, light or superficial or just wrong to me for this. Like. But who's the audience for this film?

[Vanessa Diaz]

I mean, definitely, obviously, if you are a fan of the book and. And then Gray. I do think there is enough of a Shapes Shakespeare tap in here that, like, if that's a thing that you're interested in, it was not. It's not Shakespeare in Love. Right. It's not gonna do any of those things, but there is a little bit. Enough. Honestly, I think this could be for a lot of audiences, especially if you are in a place where you are either just looking for. Or art that will really, really move you and, like, make you think. And even if you're not, I say give this sort of thing a try. This reminded me so much of, like, the beauty of the theater experience and why I'm kind of mad I haven't spent more time in theaters for reasons that now feel kind of silly and were probably born from COVID But this could be beautiful for so many different kinds of audiences. I think you're going to be primed. If you are a person who likes an adaptation, who likes emotional stories, obviously motherhood, et cetera, is gonna be a weird angle for you, depending on, like, where you land. But anybody who is just eager to Watch a piece of art that will leave you walking away with like your hand on your chest. This is it. And I think that can be a lot of different types of people if they're just open to that experience.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

There was, as I was leaving the theater, you know, there's like the processional from the theater right to the bathroom.

[Vanessa Diaz]

And.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

And usually people start chattering.

[Vanessa Diaz]

I know what you're gonna say.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

And it was this like deep, almost sacred silence. Like we all just made our way into the ladies room and nobody talked.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Yep. That's essentially what happened to me. Yeah.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah. And I drove home from the theater in silence. Like, I made my voice notes and then I just drove home of like, let's just let it linger. And you want to. You don't want to stay in the sadness, but there's so much beauty. And you've. We've moved out of the sadness by the end of the film, you know, which maybe is also a piece of the grief porn discourse. Like, the point of this movie is not to feel sad.

[Vanessa Diaz]

No. I'm so glad you said that, cuz I don't know that we've spent enough time actually talking about that portion of it. Is it is this really, really just devastatingly sad thing that happens. But we come around and in the book it's even more beautiful in its own way. But it's. You still get to it in the movie just differently, that something has opened up between Anges and Will there. And I think Jeff said on the podcast, I don't know that we can call it like a, oh, everything's fine and they're gonna be super happy now and it's fixed. But there is this beautiful understanding of like, your grief is not my grief, but it is both grief. And I see you and you see me. And that like seeing of each other, et cetera, is like, I was sad, but it was also this really hopeful sadness. And that is what I walked away from. Oh, like, that is art. Let's go.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

And then we all know what's gonna happen after that. That, like there's Hamlet and then there's Shakespeare.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Shakespeare. Yeah.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

And we will continue to get decades of great and enduring work.

I think that's just really well put. A person who wants to feel something. I think this is a movie you go to the theater for.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Oh, please. Yes.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

You know, to your point about like habits born of COVID Like if you are thinking about seeing Hammer and you're. If you have even considered maybe I'll just wait until it's on Streaming. Do not do that.

[Vanessa Diaz]

No, don't.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Do not interrupt this movie with having to let your dog out or answering a text or your kid needing a snack or whatever it is. Just. This is really intended to be two hours in the dark in a collective experience with other people.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Yeah, like, you're absolutely right.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

There is something to. I mean, I love going to the movies. I love that collective experience, kind of. Even if the movie is just fine, like, laugh, you know, laughing with other people, whatever it is. But, like, in a film like this, when you're. When your eyes are welling up and the person next to you sniffles, you know, or when everybody gasps at the same time, it's just such an experience. Just go see this one in the theater. They did not pay me to say that.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Just. No, me neither.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

This is theater film. Just really go. Let it. Give it the justice it deserves, you know, like, it's the difference between looking at a Rothko in person and pulling up a photo of a Rothko on your phone.

[Vanessa Diaz]

I mean, Chloe Zhao built a globe. Like, she literally built a globe theater because they realized the logistics of filming in the globe were going to be really hard, as was paying 300 extras because of all the, like, period garb they would have had to make.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Oh, yeah.

[Vanessa Diaz]

So they made something that's like a quarter of the imprint, I think, like, of. And. But, like, again, she. They built a theater. Like, the sensorial experience of just, like, seeing all the care that went into it needs to be enjoyed on a really big screen in the dark with the collective vibration of other people's feelings.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I will shout out, since we're, like, very close to the holiday season here, too, that if you loved this or you're shopping for somebody who loved this, there was a photographer named Agata Brzkowska, I believe is how you say it. She's Polish, and I'm not doing that very well, but she's a war photographer who spent a lot of time on the set taking photos, and. And she collaborated on a book that Jessie Buckley and Chloe Zhao wrote little lines of, like, lyrical poetry for. The book is called Even as a Shadow, Even as a Dream. Rebecca. I know the publisher sent me one. I haven't been holding out on it.

[Vanessa Diaz]

You have my address is all I'm saying. Oh, my gosh. I have.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Rebecca, I haven't been holding out on you on purpose.

[Vanessa Diaz]

V. No, I'm writing that out.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

But it is this lovely book with, like, full color, beautiful photos, both like, scenes from the film, but also behind the scenes. My favorite is a shot of one of the extras in full Elizabethan garb smoking a cigarette on a break.

But there's also, like, Jessie Buckley on the forest floor with Chloe Zhao snuggled up against her while they're blocking the birthing scene. Oh, my gosh, it's really beautiful. So give that a Google, maybe I'll send you mine.

[Vanessa Diaz]

I've at least written it down. I'm just so glad I know it exists.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Any parting thoughts? Anything we didn't get to before we wrap up appear?

[Vanessa Diaz]

Just that I read something funny, like moments before we recorded. I knew this was originally supposed to be directed by Sam Mendes, but I did not know that the original.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

That's a totally different movie.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Such a different vibe. And the original casting of Shakespeare was going to be Tom Holland. And I was like, granted, I love me some Tom Holland, but I cannot see this film in my head without Paul Mezcal. And I'm not even like on the. I have no. I. I love Paul. Not like a fan girl in that way that some people are, but I just can't unsee him. Like, their chemistry, I think was so unreplicatable that I can't imagine that. And it was just funny to know how that could have been a vastly different film.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, this worked out the way it should have, I think. A beautiful film. I think you're hearing us recommend it. If you've listened to this far, just go see it. Go see Hamlet.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Please do.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

All right. Thanks, Vanessa. Show notes [e-mail] listen, you can find us over on the [e-mail] bookriot to get early ad, free episodes and bonus content, please check out 0to well read. We do have the Hamnet episode in the feed and a whole lot of other fun stuff going on over there. And as always, you can email us podcastookriot.com the Book Riot podcast is a proud member of the Airwave Podcast Network. We'll talk to you all soon.

[Vanessa Diaz]

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[Rebecca Schinsky]

Is that guy with the binoculars watching us.

[Vanessa Diaz]

Cut the camera. They see us.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

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