← Book Riot - The Podcast
Book Riot - The Podcast
Talking Bibliotherapy with Emely Rumble
00:46:19
Rebecca talks with Emely Rumble, author of Bibliotherapy in the Bronx, about using books as a tool for individual and collective healing, social justice, and more
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- [00:00]
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- [00:58]
Rebecca Schinsky
Got air?
- [00:58]
Emily Rumble
Happy price Priceline.
- [01:02]
Rebecca Schinsky
This is the Book Riot Podcast. I'm Rebecca Schinsky and today we were going to have a two part episode but the interview that you're about to hear with Emily Rumble, the author of the forthcoming book Bibliotherapy in the Bronx, was so interesting and she was so lovely that we couldn't bear to cut it off. So we're gonna play you the whole thing and we will be back in your ears with the news on Monday. So without further ado, here is Emily Rumble discussing Bibliotherapy in the Bronx. You can pick it up April 29th. Okay, welcome back folks. I am joined, as I let you know, by Emily Rumble. She is a social worker and most relevant to our purposes today, a bibliotherapist with a new book out called Bibliotherapy in the Bronx. Emily, thanks so much for being here.
- [01:50]
Emily Rumble
Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited.
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Rebecca Schinsky
And your book is coming out later this month. We'll have a show note with all of the details so folks can pre order or pick it up for themselves. But let's I, I just want to jump right into it. I became aware of bibliotherapy I think about like 2012, 2010 or 2012 seems to be when it started to pick up some momentum online and my first awareness of it. I think a lot of folks in the book community, our first awareness of it was like, here's a nice person who will talk to you about your problems and recommend some books to you. And I remember that sort of raising my eyebrows, like, well, but there I'm. Therapy matters. I really believe in that. So one of the reasons I was drawn to your book was that you are working in the mental health field. And so I was wondering if you could tell us about your background and your training and how you conceive of what a meaningful experience with bibliotherapy might look like.
- [02:44]
Emily Rumble
Absolutely. Well, since I was a little girl, I've always been a library kid. So I grew up in the library, going to story times, getting book lists and recommendations from my school librarian and my public librarian. I learned to read in first grade. And my first grade teacher, Ms. Parkins, she's a huge part of this book. She is the reason why I gravitated towards books as, like, the foundation of my development. Ms. Parkins made reading so much fun in her classroom. We put on plays, we would make arts and crafts. There were so many different ways that as first graders who were learning how to read, we were encouraged to emotionally engage with texts and make texts come to life in the classroom. And so that's really like early childhood years. But I also attended the Greater Hartford Academy of the Performing Arts. I was a foster kid, so I moved around a lot after my grandmother passed away. But all that to say that being a student at the Greater Hartford Academy, I specialized in creative writing, and this was high school. So at this time, I am 16, 17 years old, and my mentor, Pamela Nomura, and her husband, Jonathan Gilman, may he rest in peace, they were bibliotherapists in my sight. They may not have called themselves that, but Pamela was the head of the creative writing department, and Jonathan was the head of the theater department and similar. We were encouraged to write and perform and engage with spoken word, and we were nurtured. And the environment was so rich that I felt like some of the foundation that I got in school and as a reader as a young girl was really, like, rooted in my high school experience. So when I went away to college, I went to Mount Holyoke and decided to major in English language and literature. And then my junior year, I got a scholarship to study abroad at the University of York in York, England. And that was really foundational to me because that's where I first learned about the work of prominent bibliotherapists like Ella Berthoud, Susan Elderkin, and I hadn't heard the term bibliotherapy yet. So when I get to England, I'm learning this term and I'm seeing that this is actually a practice that people are engaging in not just on the academic level, but on a social level, on a readership level. So this really fascinated me because I'm like, oh my goodness. Bibliotherapy. I've been doing this my whole life.
- [05:10]
Rebecca Schinsky
Amazing.
- [05:10]
Emily Rumble
So when I decided to, yeah, it just all clicked into place. And then I get into social work school. I attended Smith College School for Social Work. That was very like classically classic training, psychodynamic theory, kind of Freudian psychoanalysis. You learn the different psychodynamic modalities of doing psychotherapy. And so I think for me, this really was driven home by my first internship in grad school. I was placed at a day treatment facility for adults with schizophrenia. It was my second interns, actually. No, it was my first, actually. Wow. Sometimes I forget that that was my first internship because it was so life changing for me.
- [05:51]
Rebecca Schinsky
The story in the book where they're like, are you sure that you're up to this? It's a big. It's like a challenging. It's a really challenging position at all, but it's really challenging. First placement.
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Emily Rumble
Absolutely, absolutely. And I think there was a feeling when I said I'd do a poetry therapy group of how is that going to be engaging for folks who struggle with mental illness or who struggle with reality orientation? But I grew up with my maternal aunt who was diagnosed with parent schizophrenia. She was my babysitter. So I write a lot about that in bibliotherapy in the Bronx as well. So for me, working with such a high needs population, I was pretty comfortable and aware of like the risks and also the supports. Because working at the day treatment facility, we had wraparound services. So each client had a therapist, a social worker, a psychiatrist. There were programs built into their day to day schedules. So when I was asked to do a socialization component to get attendance up, I thought, well, let's do poetry therapy. Why? Because so many of the clients at the facility were also avid readers or former B boys, hip hop artists. And so to me, I've always thought of hip hop artists as poets and spoken word artists. So when I started my group, at first we had like a few rocky weeks, but people were coming and engaging and reading Walt Whitman and Sonia Sanchez. And it became a hit to the point where the director of the program was like, Emily, whatever you're doing, this should really be your course of study. Your specialty as A therapist, because you're really skilled at this. And I don't know how to go about training as a bibliotherapist, but whatever you need to do, do it kind of thing. So she kind of, like, planted that. And that was huge for me as a social worker, hearing the director program to an intern. Right. Like, to an intern. She doesn't talk to interns. So for her to say that to me really gave me an empowered sense of like, okay, I'm gonna do this.
- [07:46]
Rebecca Schinsky
So.
- [07:46]
Emily Rumble
And then, long story short, this is how I ended up here.
- [07:49]
Rebecca Schinsky
Yeah. What then does, like, what does training as a bibliotherapist look like? My civilian understanding is that it's not a regulated term. So kind of anybody could hang up a shingle and say, I'm a nice person who will recommend books to make you feel better. But I understand there are also training modules and ways that you. That you incorporate this into your professional works. Like, what does that look like? And what are the goals of a constructed bibliotherapy experience?
- [08:18]
Emily Rumble
Absolutely. That's a great question, because I know that it is really important when you're looking for a bibliotherapist to know their credentials and their training. So for me, I'm trained as a social worker. I'm licensed and board certified as a licensed clinical social worker, which means that I am licensed to not only diagnose, but also treat mental illness. And so my expertise in bibliotherapy comes from training that I've done at various institutions, but primarily the Institute for Bibliopoetry Therapy. And they have different tracks that you can take. I'm on a track to become a certified poetry therapist. Yeah. And so that credential is called cpt, but you can also train to become a poetry therapy facilitator. And there's different paths that you can take, of course, based on your profession, your education, and your previous credentials. Now, this gets tricky because, of course, we know that with credentialing programs, there can be many barriers, including for myself. I have two small children. My son is autistic and needs a lot of direct support. So I was thinking I'd complete this credential, like, five years ago, and I'm still working on it. So I do think that it's important to kind of just know that when you're working with someone, you know what their background is. So for me, my background is as a therapist, and my specialty has been training with IFBPT, and they have a website, fbpt.org where you can request information on credentialing. You have to first choose a certified mentor. So my certified mentor is Sherry Rider, phenomenal poetry therapist, also lcsw, a licensed clinical social worker from Brooklyn. I'm so grateful for Sherry because I've learned so much from her. She's also the founder of the Creative Writing Institute. Writing is spelled R I G H T I N G and so she provides continuing education courses to social workers through her program. And she's been a wonderful, beautiful mentor to me. So there's different paths you can take, but that's primarily been mine.
- [10:18]
Matthew Sullivan
Today's episode is brought to you by Midnight and Soap Lake by Matthew Sullivan, published by Hanover Square Press, an imprint of HarperCollins. There's a lake with mysterious properties, a town haunted by urban legend, and two women whose lives intersect in terrifying ways. Welcome to Soap Lake, a town to rival Twin Peaks in Stephen King's Castle Rock. Midnight in Soap Lake is a sweeping, decade spanning mystery brimming with quirky characters and puzzle hunt scenarios. It's a modern day Twin Peaks with a rich, expansive universe that readers will enter and never forget. So the mystery traverses the cross section of an eerie yet endearing northwest town that will cast a hypnotic pull on readers. We visit a lake that can heal ailments, apple orchards haunted by a mythic boogeyman named Treetop, a library with regulars who hold the town secrets and the surrounding desert where dangers lurk in plain s. Now, if you're not familiar, Matthew Sullivan's debut Midnight at the Bright Ideas Bookstore had a year girl, and this book might have a similar year it might be of the moment. Make sure to check it out. And thanks again to Hanover Square Press for sponsoring this episode. Today's episode is brought to you by 8th Note Press, publishers of to have and have More by Sanibel Derrymore Academy, circa 2007 is home to teenagers who have their eyebrows shaped and their sweet 16 tinted. It is here that Emory Hooper, adopted at birth into the country club set, thrives the one blight on her otherwise perfect life. Though Lila Chang, the Chinese American student, is the embarrassing epitome of every Asian stereotype Emery despises, Lila and Emery develop a complicated friendship, and as they speed toward graduation and Ivy League applications, they circle around a truth that still irrevocably separates them. With enough money, actions don't have consequences. So to have and have More is a dark comedy about hyper privileged boarding school kids and toxic elitism. It examines the rarefied world of prep school through the eyes of a Korean girl who is adopted into a wealthy white family. It has sad rich girl trauma. It observes casual racism, complicity. Girl, it has everything. Make sure to check it out. And thanks again to 8th Note Press for sponsoring this episode.
- [12:39]
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- [13:08]
Rebecca Schinsky
And so I come to you as a client. Let's say we're starting off and are you incorporating bibliotherapy with all of your clients? Or how do you recognize that this is a person where I might bring some bibliotherapy in? Once you see that, what, what does it look like? How does that even get started?
- [13:24]
Emily Rumble
Yeah, that's a great question. Because I have so many clients who are bibliophiles. Like they're reading as a care practice anyway, right? Long before they came to therapy. And so once I've identified that they're bibliophiles, a lot of times they'll bring the books to me, like, oh my goodness, I just finished. Did you read Elizabeth Acevedo's recent book? Well, let me tell you, I felt triggered because Fill in the blank. And so that's exciting because whenever there's an emotional reaction or whenever emotion gets elicited around reading, there's some juicy information in that for us. So sometimes it happens as natural as that, where a client will bring in some thoughts or reflections upon reading something that really brought up a lot for them. And then we can start having a therapeutic discussion around, wow, well, what do you think that that's about for you? Or who's the character that you love? Who's the character that you hated? How do you feel about the outcome of the story? Because I think in many ways stories are emotional containers that really allow us to have like a safe symbolic space to explore painful emotions. So sometimes it's that, sometimes it's me asking if something comes up or like naturally. A lot of times it will be, let's say, for example, a client's mother just passed away and she was an avid reader. And there's a book that my client remembers their mother would always read. So maybe I'll suggest, hey, maybe we should read the book, reread it together, right? It's a way to connect to mom's memory. Yeah, yeah.
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Rebecca Schinsky
So I hear that we in there. And one of the things that I really appreciated about the way you write about this experience is that it's not a one directional. You recommend the book to the client, the client goes home and reads it, they come back and give you their book report. But that it really is a collaboration between the two of you. What are you trying to draw out? Like what are the. I think at some point you state like four different goals of bibliotherapy in terms of activating insight and reality orientation. Would you talk about that a little bit for those of us who don't have the professional training there?
- [15:24]
Emily Rumble
Yeah. So in my book I share a lot of the history and the foundation of the modality of Books to Heal. And one of the main bibliotherapists, slash librarians who I share about is Arlene McCarty Hines. And she established the four clinical goals for bibliotherapy, which are to increase self understanding by helping the client value their personhood. Two, to improve the reality orientation of the client. Thirdly, to improve the capacity to respond by enriching internal images and helping feelings about those images to surface. So that's that emotional response that we just talked about. And then fourth, increasing awareness of interpersonal relationships. So those are the four ways that engaging emotionally with literature can help us to self reflect, to get curious about what's coming up for us, to support us as an emotional therapeutic tool. Right. Whether that be to process emotions like grief, trauma, life transitions. Right. Like sometimes I'm asked who is bibliotherapy best for? And we're not saying, hey, we're gonna cure schizophrenia with bibliotherapy. We're saying that bibliotherapy offers us a therapeutic tool to support our wellness, to support our self discovery, to engage in gaining deeper emotional insight. And so that's the whole, the whole purpose is once we gain those insights, then we can apply those insights to our lives to hopefully create some behavioral changes or perspective shifts. Ultimately, bibliotherapy's roots are stoic in nature. So there's a lot here around really looking at our thought life, reframing the narratives that we've inherited, re authoring our stories. So it can look very different. But I really appreciate you bringing up that I read with clients because I think for a lot of clients who think, well, I'm not a strong reader or bibliotherapy is not for me A lot of times, I'll just incorporate it into our sessions. Like, okay, read a poem, and next thing, you've got people reading and writing in response to what they're reading and reflecting on what they're reading. So I'm. I'm huge on both prescriptive and interactive bibliotherapy.
- [17:41]
Rebecca Schinsky
Oh, yeah. I had a therapist pull that on me one time, like, here's a. I love Mary Oliver. And my therapist at the time knew that and was like, I think there's a. I think there's a Mary Oliver poem that speaks to this and, like, pulled this moment on me. And I'm not sure that she would even think about herself as having engaged in bibliotherapy, but it really does, like, cut right to the heart of something or help you sort of get out of your own conscious mind when you're engaging with someone else's thoughts. And I think most folks listening to this show are passionate book lovers and have had that experience of reading something that makes you feel really seen or that helps you reframe or understand a thing in your life in a different way. And you have filled the book with case studies and, like, little looks that folks that you've worked with. Could we talk about one of those so that you can walk us through really, what that looks like in practice? I know we talked about Evelyn a little bit offline. Her story was really powerful to me.
- [18:36]
Emily Rumble
Yeah. Evelyn's story is so special to me because I worked with her for many years before she ever shared with me that her brother passed away when she was a kid. And this happens sometimes because therapy is really dependent on a close relationship with your therapist. Being able to cultivate a relationship where these painful memories can rise to the surface and be witnessed. And sometimes it does take time. And I think with Evelyn, she had. We were focusing so much on, like, the mother wound, her relationship with her mother, and some of the grief that she had around who her mother couldn't be to her, that we never really addressed the fact that her brother passed away when she was little and made that deeper connection. And so at some point, we were talking, and we were just talking about archetypes. I think that's how the conversation came up, because archetypes reflect our inner world. The orphan, the maiden, the mother, the crone. Right. The wise old woman, the trickster. And so we were just talking about archetype, and she brought up the fairy tale Hansel and Gretel. And so I'm thinking, oh, okay, we're just Gonna, like, talk about archetype in the context of this fairy tale. But what ended up coming up for her was how much she loves story and how much it reminded her of her brother. And so I'm like, oh, tell me about your brother. And then she just starts sobbing. And she told me the story that he had died in a really tragic accident. I get emotional talking about this. He died in a really tragic accident when she was young. But that so much of her ability to, like, navigate her mother's mental illness and how tense their household was growing up was how protected she felt because she was in it with her brother. And her mother could be very abusive. And so there's a way in which it's almost that metaphor, right, of, like, traversing the dark forest. But at least you're not alone. You have your brother. And there's so many threats in the forest. But she felt brave enough to face life down with courage because she had her brother, her older brother. And so after her brother passed away, it's just a tremendous loss that she never recovered from. And I wrote her case. When I asked her if I could write her case study, and she said yes, I was so happy because I felt like that was a foundational case study to help folks understand how deeply embedded grief is into the psyche, how much we deny and repress feeling it. Because so much of the grief journey is like learning how to go on living without the person here in the physical. And I've worked with clients who are deeply spiritual. And it's still hard, right, because you don't have your. You don't have your person here, like, with me every day. And so it was beautiful to learn how important her brother was to her, to her internal world, through this fairy tale. And it gave us a lot of rich material to work with, because now we're working with metaphor. And when things would come up or she'd get stuck, or she'd have a moment of feeling wordless, like she just couldn't express what she needed to say. I would, like, use that fairy tale to help her access language.
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Rebecca Schinsky
Powerful.
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Emily Rumble
Absolutely. It's like, okay, so today, where are we? In the forest, right? Like, are we at the edge of the forest? Can we see the light between the trees? Or do we feel like we're just stuck in the middle of the woods, girl. And she's like, girl, look. We are stuck in the middle of the woods. It is midnight. I am hungry, tired, cold, and this wishes after me. We need to talk about some coping strategies.
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Matthew Sullivan
Yeah.
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Rebecca Schinsky
I mean, what A. I think that just goes right to how. How books are uniquely magical in this way that you think you're having a conversation about one thing when someone says Hansel and Gretel, but there are so many other ways to read the story and so many individual ways to make meaning out of those stories, which I'm sure people do this with other. Other forms of art, with music and movies, but it seems to me that your sensibility around it, which feels true to me as well, is that books are uniquely powerful for accessing some of this stuff. And could you talk about maybe why that is or what your own personal theories of that are?
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Emily Rumble
Yeah. Well, I think it's also because we're storytelling beings, right? Like, as human beings, as divine beings. Architect, archetype, reflects our inner world since we're very, very little. Like, I teach bibliotherapy at Queens College, and it's so funny. One of my students was talking about how she loved the Little Mermaid. Growing up, she was terrified of Ursula. And, like, still to this day, when she's, like. When she watches the movie again or sees an image of Ursula, she has that, like, nervous system reaction of, like, deep fear. And that's fascinating to me because it's like, you're a grown woman. Ursula's not real. Right. But still, something about your inner child gets activated when you see Ursula, because there's something about what Ursula represents to you in your inner world that still activates your fear, and that speaks to how rich the human mind is, our creative imagination is. And we could go like, I'm not her therapist. I'm her professor, so I can't say I had such a. But I'm sure. And she's so funny. She was like, emily, okay, after this class, I need to speak to my therapist to incorporate some bibliotherapy into why Ursula is so triggering. But this is why it's so. I think literature is so unique because it's just transformative in a different way. Right. We're talking about an entry point that for us as human beings, in the way that we think and the way that we process things, like engaging with stories, with lyrical language, with creating a mindful space to engage with language, it promotes a different kind of experience. It's outside of the judgment of anybody else. I always say, like, when we're reading, we can have our full range of emotions without worrying about social consequences. I. I can experience my jealousy, my rage, my fear, my hatred, even when I'm reading. And it doesn't necessarily say anything about me as a person. Nobody's reading the thoughts going through my mind thinking, oh, you're such a bad person for having that thought or feeling that thing. And we can just be our full selves. And I think there's an authenticity that comes when we're reading and we're letting ourselves go on an emotional journey that's just for us, and that feels really comforting. And I always say books are the greatest companions because somebody wrote that story. That story came to life through the pen of another. So in a way, yes, it's just. You can say it's just a story, but I never believe it's just a story. Especially now after having written a book. And I know how much of myself and my life and my sweat and my tears I poured into the book, like you're sitting at the author's feet. And there's wisdom and there's gems that are being imparted to you as you're engaging with this story. It's an emotional journey. And I think that that speaks to us on a different level as well.
- [26:08]
Rebecca Schinsky
Yeah, I really love and appreciate all of that. And I love that you brought in the example about your student and how she's going to have to go home and do her own reflection and bibliotherapy about Ursula, because another of the things that you incorporate through the book are reflections that different people have done different bibliotherapy exercises about texts that they've engaged with. And one that caught my eye was somebody Reflecting on Long Division by Kiese Lehman, which is a book. But yes, what I mean, just wonderful. But I. I was looking at those reflections as I read and thinking about how for someone who's not in therapy currently, or for someone who's maybe not so sure yet that this is an avenue they want to explore. Those reflection exercises are look like a really good way to get your feet wet. Could you talk to listeners about sort of what that might look like for them if there's a. How would they know that a text they're engaging with is something that might be good fruit for a personal bibliotherapy reflection? And then what could that practice look like at home?
- [27:14]
Emily Rumble
Yeah. Yeah. So. Dr. Well, I'll put it this way. Arlene McCarty Hines breaks down the bibliotherapeutic process in four steps.
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Rebecca Schinsky
Okay.
- [27:23]
Emily Rumble
So the first step is recognition, where you actually are engaged by a text you want to keep reading. Because as readers, we know sometimes we read a book and it's just not resonating with us and we don't finish it. So the first thing is to like actually see yourself in the text or at least emotionally connect to the text. I have a student who also says like I have to give a crap to keep reading. And I'm like, absolutely, because you emotionally be engaged. Right? The second step is examination. So this is where a reader begins to examine a concept or a feeling after they've attached to a story. So usually this might happen where you start to have emotion comes to the surface, right? Either you can't stand a certain character or you're really invested in the well being of another character, or you're just lost about what the heck is this story about. But something about the plot has gripped you and you want to keep reading because you're trying to suspend disbelief. But you really want to know how this is going to end, right? The third step is juxtaposition. So this is where a reader places two impressions, experiences or ideas side by side. This is where Dr. Rudine Sims Bishop talks about books as mirrors, mirrors, windows or sliding glass doors. This is the juxtaposition where we kind of place these feelings, impressions side by side. And one example of that would be like when a character, a fictional character's struggles illuminates our own or when a fictional dilemma resonates with our own life experiences. Right now we're like thinking, oh, wow, my life compared to, to this character's life, my story compared to this story. It's kind of holding up a mirror in that way. And then the last step is application to self. So once we have this like emotional connection and we start to kind of consider what emotions are coming up for us and different ideas that we're engaging with in the storyline. We love a good hero's journey for this reason because typically there's some kind of conflict that needs to get resolved. Right now we're gonna gain some insight. This is where the reflection piece is so important and this is where it becomes more than bibliotherapy. Reading on your own, more of a way for a therapist to help you gain insights into yourself. Because therapists are trained to ask the right questions. So it's not simply I'm reading and I'm having an emotional experience. A bibliotherapist that's trained knows how to engage you in a discussion around your emotional experience so that you can gather those insights and go through step four of application to yourself. And application to self is really the integration of the insights that you've made as you Read. So this is where the reader reflects on their attitudes and their own behaviors. How are those affected by what they've read? Some of the key questions that I always tell my bibliotherapy students to ask themselves is how does the story apply to my life? How do I process the emotions that this story has brought up for me? Do I deny difficult feelings or do I see them them as steps towards growth? What do I need to do to integrate what I've learned after reading? Am I willing to change? Am I willing to do that? Right? You learn a lot about yourself as a reader. I think that's why a lot of readers are naturally drawn to literature because we are naturally very self reflective. Not everybody, but I think most people in my experience as a therapist who specializes in bibliotherapy, but I think that's really the harder McDonald's meets the Minecraft universe with one of six collectibles and your choice of a Big Mac or 10 piece McNuggets with spicy nether Flame sauce.
- [31:00]
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- [31:36]
Rebecca Schinsky
Yeah, this is making me wish that we had picked a poem in advance so we could like do a live little enact a moment of what that would look like together.
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Emily Rumble
Well, we, I actually if you. If halftime. I'm teaching my class tonight and we actually are doing poetry therapy.
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Rebecca Schinsky
Oh, fascinating.
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Emily Rumble
So one of the exercises that we are gonna do tonight, I'm gonna have the class read Dylan Thomas's Do Not Go Gentle into that Good Night.
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Rebecca Schinsky
Okay.
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Emily Rumble
And we are going to have a discussion around what they think about this poem. Like is it about enjoying life, embracing life, or resisting death? And the reason that I want them to kind of have a discussion around it is because it really talks about the importance of subjectivity. When we engage with literature and poems, we all come to the text differently based on our lived experiences. And Dylan was actually very depressed and suicidal. Not a lot of people know his story, but it will be interesting to see as we Read this poem. Who is aware of Dylan Thomas story? Who reads this poem as super optimistic and who reads this poem as very depressive?
- [33:00]
Rebecca Schinsky
Yeah.
- [33:00]
Emily Rumble
Because I'm hoping to have a rich, therapeutic discussion.
- [33:03]
Rebecca Schinsky
That's the rage. Rage against the dying of the light. Right? That.
- [33:07]
Emily Rumble
Yes.
- [33:08]
Rebecca Schinsky
That's so interesting. I didn't know much about Dylan's story, so I think my own reading of it would have been like insisting on life in as big and expansive a way as possible for as long as possible, but knowing a little bit more about him. From what you just explained, it seems like that might not be the place he's writing from. And it almost doesn't matter because it has its own meaning to me. And that's one of the. That's one of those things that makes literature so uniquely powerful to do this. Thank you for sharing that example. Before we wrap up, over the next couple of minutes, I was so happy to see that one of the angles that you take in writing about bibliotherapy is that it's a tool in social justice and in collective healing. And folks who have followed Book Riot know that that's a thing that we care about a whole lot. Could you talk to me about. About what this looks like inside a social justice context, how you see it as a tool here? And then we can maybe move into a little bit about how you're seeing book banning attempts affecting the populations that you serve and the tensions around bibliotherapy as well.
- [34:15]
Emily Rumble
Absolutely. Well, to go back to Rudine Sims Bishop's philosophy on books as windows, mirrors, and sliding doors, I think that this is crucial to the conversation on social justice because engaging with diverse stories really changes our attitudes towards difference and makes us more aware. Some of us are more aware than others based on our intersectional identities and our own personal experiences. But I'm really worried about the state of our society and the censorship that we're seeing. Book Manning has gotten out of control. I just read an article by Kelly Jensen, one of your writers, one of my favorite people to read. She literally. I like.
- [34:58]
Rebecca Schinsky
She's wonderful.
- [34:59]
Emily Rumble
She writes. I'm reading. But she wrote about a county in Alabama that has already defunded their public library.
- [35:07]
Rebecca Schinsky
Yes.
- [35:08]
Emily Rumble
And I literally was in Sears last night reading that, because I think after the last executive order that was signed by the president, I know that we've kind of been anticipating down the line that our public libraries might be at stake and that these things might happen. But to actually see it happening is dystopian in its truest form and terrifying. And I just. It's really hard for me to talk about because I'm very angry and very emotional about it and very afraid. But that's the heart of, of my philosophy on it, is that reading is a mental health intervention, that social justice and reading go hand in hand. Book banning is a social justice issue. And I'm just really hopeful that for those of us that are advocates for books and literature and free thinking, I know that if the public library was defunded on a whole scale tomorrow, many of us would be starting three little libraries. Doing book swaps like that gives me hope.
- [36:21]
Rebecca Schinsky
We're going full Fahrenheit 451. Everybody's memorizing.
- [36:25]
Emily Rumble
Yes.
- [36:26]
Rebecca Schinsky
And carrying it around. Yeah.
- [36:27]
Emily Rumble
Everybody. Yes. Yes. It's.
- [36:33]
Rebecca Schinsky
Yeah, yeah. It's really. It is really scary right now to think about what losing access to books and literary material and all of the things that it enables, including this kind of personal reflection and growth and collective healing might mean. And I just, I so appreciated that you took that angle. There are several books about bibliotherapy coming out this season, I'm sure you're aware. And one of the things that really drew me to your work and that I think is going to be so important for helping it resonate with our audience as well. Well, is that piece of the. It's about the individuals, but not just for our individual well being, but for how we show up in society and how we're able to contribute to these communities that we're a part of. To that end. Absolutely.
- [37:19]
Emily Rumble
Because being from. Oh, no, go ahead.
- [37:21]
Rebecca Schinsky
No, no, you go ahead.
- [37:23]
Emily Rumble
No, I just so appreciate you like calling that out because part of the reason why I held onto this manuscript for so long was that I really wanted my publisher to understand that, that this is like a social justice book. It's not a. Yes, there's some of my personal story. And it's a resource for therapists and healers and teachers and librarians alike. But at the heart of this story is it's a social justice book. And it's really a celebration of our public library, of the contributions of black librarians in particular. Because coming from the Bronx, the library isn't just a place to access literature, it's a place to access safety after school for kids here. Heat in the wintertime, air conditioning when it's 100 plus degrees outside. For me, I had both of my children back to back at the height of the COVID 19 pandemic. And the public library was our lifeline. Having Infant childish story time move to virtual story time was amazing for my mental health and for my children. So I can go on and on about all of the ways that it means a lot to me that you got the heart of the book as a social justice justice book, because that is what separates my work from the work of bibliotherapists prior. And this is really about, like our personal and collective liberation and the way that literacy enforces that. So thank you.
- [38:42]
Rebecca Schinsky
Oh, it's my pleasure. And to that end, you write about some of the other places that bibliotherapy has been applied in addition to sort of one on one therapy in your context. And you talk about uses of bibliotherapy in prison and in symbolic ceremony hip hop therapy as sort of a way to backdoor poetry therapy in for people I thought was especially interesting. And like Kendrick Lamar has a Pulitzer. So of course that makes sense. And I know that listeners of this show are also gonna be interested to hear about trauma informed romance as a part of bibliotherapy. So would you talk just a little bit about that one as well?
- [39:18]
Emily Rumble
Yeah, absolutely. So regarding trauma informed romance, I shouted out. I'm just gonna close this one here.
- [39:24]
Rebecca Schinsky
Okay.
- [39:24]
Emily Rumble
I shouted out Kennedy Rya because she is beloved in the book community. And I. She's the only author that I had an opportunity to facilitate live group bibliotherapy with her presence. And when I tell you that session, it was so cool and so healing. I mean, we. We cried a lot. We cried a lot.
- [39:45]
Rebecca Schinsky
Like, you've done a good job.
- [39:47]
Emily Rumble
That's how you know you've done a good job. And that's how you know that the literature is healing. Because not only is before I Let Go, a beautiful romance story on healing after loss, these two lovers lose their baby and end up getting a divorce. By the end of the book, they end up back together. I'm not gonna give the whole plot away, but that's the heart of it.
- [40:13]
Rebecca Schinsky
I mean, it's a romance. We know they're ending up together at the end.
- [40:16]
Emily Rumble
Yes, we know you know that. But I think. I think one thing that Kennedy Ryan understands and is masterful at as an author is she's not deluding us into thinking like life is going to knock us down, but everything will be okay. She's really great at writing trauma informed stories that are honest about the way that traumatic experiences fundamentally change who we are and that the way forward is not to cling on to the past and, you know, just keep Wishing that the traumatic event ever happened. The way forward is to accept that it happened, no matter how hard it is, no matter how long it takes. Trauma changes us. It changes our entire orientation, the way that we live, the way that we think, the way that we move. Right. And so how do I move on after the traumatic event? Adrian Rich writes about this, right? Like, we have to explore the wreck, gather the broken pieces in the words of Clarissa Pinkola Estes, right? Gather the bones and speak life into those bones and find a way forward. And I think that's what trauma informed literature does is that it doesn't paint a pretty picture. It does a really good job of offering us maybe I don't believe that all, all bibliotherapeutic texts have to offer narrative closure, but I do think that the narrative closure has to be emotionally honest about the way that trauma changes us and also offer us some hope. So that's how I personally define traumatic trauma informed literature, is that by the end of the story, we've got some tools to understand that survival is possible, healing is possible. It may not be pretty city, and it's gonna. We're gonna go through it, right? But it is possible. And, and our pain is survivable for the most part, right? Like, we can go on about societal ills that in fact are not survivable. And some of the violence that we're. We've seen and are seeing that's just like broadcasted right in our faces every day. It's heartbreaking. But I think with trauma informed literature, that's really the heart of it, is that it's just honest about the way trauma changes us, but the way that we can persist and still find beauty in the day to day.
- [42:45]
Rebecca Schinsky
It's a beautiful note for us to end on, I think. Is there anything that I didn't ask you about or that you want to make sure to say to our listeners before we go?
- [42:55]
Emily Rumble
I just hope that if y'all end up picking up Bibliotherapy in the Bronx, that it makes you feel seen and witnessed and celebrated. I've worked with so many people who have struggled to find a therapist that they can feel comfortable with or be themselves with or talk about their fictional boyfriends with. And so I wanted to write a book that made readers feel like their love of reading is a very important, very valid psychosocial support. And that's my hope for everyone who reads Bibliotherapy in the Bronx. And I hope that you all decide to read. Read it.
- [43:33]
Rebecca Schinsky
Thank you. So much. Emily Rumble again. The book is Bibliotherapy in the Bronx. It's out April 29th. Emily, where can folks find you online if they want to learn more about you and your work?
- [43:43]
Emily Rumble
Yeah, I'm on TikTok threads, Instagram, substack, Blue sky and my handle is the same. It's at Literary L I T E R A P y literapy underscore. NYC is my handle and my website is literally NYC. All1word.podiapodia.com and you can subscribe to my website. I have a monthly literary newsletter that I send out with some bookish goodies every month and that's the main way. And I also have virtual bibliotherapy sessions available for readers in the United States and that can also be booked through my website site.
- [44:28]
Rebecca Schinsky
Amazing. We'll have links to all of those in the show Notes. Thanks again Emily and best of luck with the book.
- [44:32]
Emily Rumble
Thank you. Thank you so much for having me.
- [44:42]
Dan Souza
Hey everyone, it's Dan Souza from America's Test Kitchen. I'm super excited to let you all know that we're launching a new video podcast that takes you behind the scenes into the messy, imperfect, but riveting day to day life right here in our Test kitchen. Not only do I get to talk to my colleagues about the latest taste.
- [44:58]
Emily Rumble
Test they attended, I just came from a tasting of salted caramel apple pie bars and then roasted garlic. So I apologize.
- [45:05]
Dan Souza
Or about a recipe they're developing.
- [45:07]
Rebecca Schinsky
The thing about this recipe is it's a secret. The restaurateur refuses to tell people what her secret ingredients are.
- [45:13]
Dan Souza
We also chat with amazing guests from the culinary world and beyond. The lamest joke I've ever said. I said to Marie, baby, great.
- [45:20]
Rebecca Schinsky
It's the great work.
- [45:21]
Emily Rumble
Thanks.
- [45:22]
Dan Souza
Make sure to subscribe to in the Test Kitchen so you don't miss an episode. You can watch in the Test Kitchen on YouTube and Spotify and listen to it wherever you get your podcasts. Can't wait to see you in the Test Kitchen.