The 2025 Booker Longlist Is Here

Summary

Book Riot - The Podcast: The 2025 Booker Longlist Is Here

Release Date: August 4, 2025
Hosts: Jeff O’Neill and Rebecca Schinsky
Description: In this episode, Jeff and Rebecca delve into the newly announced 2025 Booker Prize longlist, exploring its implications for the literary world, discussing industry trends, and addressing the challenges faced by independent media and bookstores.

---

1. Unveiling the 2025 Booker Longlist

The episode kicks off with Jeff and Rebecca discussing the arrival of the 2025 Booker Prize longlist. They express both excitement and frustration over the eligibility window, which includes books published between October 1, 2024, and September 30, 2025. Jeff humorously laments the confusing dates:

Jeff O'Neill [35:50]: "That literally is in fear. That doesn't help anyone do anything."

Rebecca highlights notable inclusions, such as Katie Kitamura's "Audition," praising it as a favorite:

Rebecca Schinsky [37:17]: "Audition is one of the long listed titles. And good news for me too. Also my favorite book of the year."

---

2. Conflicts of Interest Within the Booker Prize

A significant portion of the discussion centers around potential conflicts of interest among the Booker Prize judges. The hosts critique Sarah Jessica Parker’s role as a judge given her imprint's previous involvement with longlisted books. Rebecca raises concerns about transparency and fairness:

Rebecca Schinsky [38:58]: "It really sucks for Claire Adams and for readers. Like, if the fact that one of the judges published your previous novel and is adapting your current novel is not a conflict of interest, that is disqualifying."

Jeff counters by questioning whether this conflict materially affects the integrity of the longlist:

Jeff O'Neill [42:36]: "I just don't think, frankly, it's in its shade on the idea of a Booker long list thing that getting nominated for an award has no bearing anymore if it ever did on the artistic or commercial success of your project."

---

3. The Influence of Algorithms on Literary Diversity

Jeff and Rebecca delve into how algorithms on platforms like Goodreads may be undermining diversity in popular book selections. They reference an alarming statistic where all top 50 books were authored by white writers, sparking a broader conversation about unconscious bias and algorithmic influence:

Jeff O'Neill [14:20]: "If you're not interrogating them, just, you know, unconscious bias and what the algorithm serves you."

Rebecca emphasizes the ethical and business imperatives for publishers to support diverse media outlets to foster a more inclusive literary environment:

Rebecca Schinsky [15:22]: "Support independent media for all the reasons... you need to support the kinds of outlets that cover a diverse array of books."

---

4. Sustaining Independent Media: Audience Support vs. Advertising

The hosts explore the financial sustainability of independent media, debating the merits and drawbacks of relying on audience support versus advertising revenue. Jeff outlines the necessity of diversifying income streams to maintain editorial independence:

Jeff O'Neill [16:47]: "There are virtually no audience-only supported book media company things. Everyone has advertising. All of them do, right?"

Rebecca discusses the shifting landscape where traditional advertising models are becoming unsustainable, advocating for a hybrid approach to funding:

Rebecca Schinsky [17:53]: "Having multiple modes of support and income makes you more sustainable and also gives you a greater defense if one of those modes becomes threatened."

---

5. The Resurgence of Independent Bookstores

A highlight of the episode is the remarkable 65% year-over-year growth of the independent bookstore, Bookshop. Jeff attributes this surge to increasing anti-Amazon sentiment and a shift in consumer behavior towards supporting local businesses:

Jeff O'Neill [51:34]: "It's an amazing 65% year over year growth in a year when book sales are down across the industry."

Rebecca corroborates this trend, noting that consumers are now making values-based purchasing decisions, especially as Amazon’s incentives become less compelling:

Rebecca Schinsky [56:09]: "Consumers know what it is. Now only 5% of their sales are ebooks. Which I thought was interesting, but that does give some... it raises the bar a little bit."

---

6. Book Recommendations and Discussions

Towards the end of the episode, Jeff and Rebecca share their latest book recommendations, discussing a mix of fiction and non-fiction titles that have caught their attention. Highlights include:

• "The Carpool Detectives" by Chuck Hogan: Jeff praises its addictive quality and engaging narrative.

• "Maggie" by Katie Yee: Rebecca describes it as a "great debut novel" that intricately explores middle-age challenges and personal growth.

• "The Feather Detective" by Chris Sweeney: Jeff lauds this non-fiction piece for its detailed portrayal of a pioneering forensic ornithologist.

---

7. Reflections on Modern Communication and Behavior

In a thoughtful exchange, Jeff and Rebecca contemplate the state of modern communication, particularly how algorithms and digital platforms impact language and human connection. They reference "Algospeak" by Adam Electric, discussing the limitations it imposes on nuanced conversations:

Rebecca Schinsky [27:14]: "They're going into automatic like AI driven filters that can't detect nuance in how the language is used."

Jeff draws parallels between current linguistic adaptations and historical shifts brought about by innovations like writing and the printing press:

Jeff O'Neill [26:08]: "Language is evolving, but it's contracting. We have fewer and fewer ways to express ourselves."

---

8. Conclusion: Navigating the Future of Literature and Media

Jeff and Rebecca wrap up the episode by reflecting on the interconnected challenges facing literature and independent media. They emphasize the importance of supporting diverse voices and sustainable media models to foster a rich and inclusive literary landscape. The hosts encourage listeners to engage with independent bookstores and supporter-supported media as essential steps toward a more vibrant and equitable book world.

---

Tune in next week for more insights, discussions, and recommendations from Book Riot's Jeff O’Neill and Rebecca Schinsky.

Transcript

[Sponsor Announcer]

This episode is sponsored by Incogni. You know how sometimes it feels like the Internet knows way too much about you? That might be because data brokers are collecting and selling your personal information. Incogni steps in to fix that. Incogni reaches out to data brokers on your behalf, requests your personal data to be removed, and handles any pushback from their side. And because many of these brokers keep trying to recollect your info, Incogni keeps working in the background, sending repeated removal requests to make sure your data stays off the market. The whole thing is fully automated, and that's why the yearly plan is such a great value. If you've ever wondered why robocalls just won't stop, it's because your number is being bought and sold. Some brokers even sell lists with names like Tough Start Young, Single Parents or Rural and Barely making it so companies can target disadvantaged people. It's real and it's really gross. I've personally been targeted online because of the work that I do, and Incogni has given me an easy way to push back and protect my personal information. And not only that, they handle handle it all for me. Use promo code Bookriot to get an exclusive 60% off an annual plan at incogni.com bookriot that's code bookriot at I n C o g n I.com bookriot on WhatsApp, no one can see or hear your personal messages.

[WhatsApp Announcer]

Whether it's a voice call message or.

[Sponsor Announcer]

Sending a password to WhatsApp, it's all just this. So whether you're sharing the streaming password in the family chat or trading those late night voice messages, that could basically become a podcast. Your personal messages stay between you, your friends and your family. No one else, not even us.

[WhatsApp Announcer]

WhatsApp message privately with everyone.

[Jeff O'Neill]

This is the Book Riot podcast. I'm Jeff o'. Neill. I'm Rebecca Schinsky in my dulcet baritone. I was coming through the wrong mic a second ago and I was joking that it didn't have that normal warmth that Rebecca is used to hearing. Because I was, you know, basically the tin can that's attached to my computer was picking it up versus my good.

[Sponsor Announcer]

It's wild. What a difference that makes. But now we're here, your dulcet baritone is in full effect.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Well, I don't know.

[Sponsor Announcer]

I'm full of sounds different when it's not coming just from yourself.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yes, it's true. Yeah, just talking into the wall. If this is the kind of vibe you're interested in being A part of. We are hiring, by the way, a.

[Sponsor Announcer]

Great pitch we're making for ourselves. You know what, though? You can listen to this show and know we don't take ourselves too seriously. At Riot New Media Group.

[Jeff O'Neill]

It's not the worst behind the scenes look.

[Sponsor Announcer]

It's a pretty good vibe.

[Jeff O'Neill]

We operate. Yeah.

[Sponsor Announcer]

Here we are hiring a digital. Yeah, we're hiring a digital content specialist. So if you love books and you know the ins and outs of social media strategy, we're looking for somebody who has proven experience and success, especially with social video. We would love to have you apply. We are committed, of course, to building an inclusive workforce. And so we strongly encourage applications from women, individuals with disabilities and people of color. You can find all the [e-mail] careers also a link in the show notes and apply by August 22nd. Cross your fingers. We'd love to meet you.

[Jeff O'Neill]

You could come work in independent media. And Rebecca's got a rebuttal. Rejoinder, amicus brief. I'm not sure where we're going here. In a second.

[Sponsor Announcer]

I'm co signing.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Okay, we'll go for that in a second. Just some programming notes. We will be continuing to do weekly new shows through August, but we're gonna take a couple of breaks for the. The midweek thing. Yeah, we have a little bit of time traveling.

[Sponsor Announcer]

Yeah, we'll be off on Wednesday the 6th and Wednesday the 13th. We need a little summer break, so we're gonna take one.

[Jeff O'Neill]

So are you gonna, like, just sit around sharpening knives? Is that what you do on your breaks? You just sharpen knives and get ready, Put fuel in the jetpack, get ready for the fall.

[Sponsor Announcer]

Yes, I know. I would love to put some fuel in my jetpack. I'm gon be, you know, probably just taking a little extra time to work on. We have two big projects we're spinning up. We do for the fall. Podcast listeners who are members of the Patreon can see what one of those big projects [e-mail] Book Riot podcast. And the other one, you'll just have to hang out and find out. It's not a podcast.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Not a podcast. That's. That's a good. You should tell people. It's like another one. Really? Really. Another podcast?

[Sponsor Announcer]

We have a second thing we're working on and it is not a podcast.

[Jeff O'Neill]

A secret third thing.

[Sponsor Announcer]

Yeah, work on, make some content. Maybe go into my cave a little bit.

[Jeff O'Neill]

All I have to say is the spreadsheets right now are just good dopamine.

[Sponsor Announcer]

I don't know that we ever have more fun at work than when it's a spreadsheet about a creative thing.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Shoot it into my face.

[Sponsor Announcer]

It's so good. I'm, like, leaning out of the shower yelling idea reminders at Siri right now. It's like, that's peak. It's peak brainstorm. And I could not be happier.

[Jeff O'Neill]

It really is. I would rather brainstorm about things than make things or than do the things. I think that's. This is universally true.

[Sponsor Announcer]

The ideas. The ideas are so fun. But the making. I like the beginning of the making. The things. Like getting. Yeah. Getting the thing off the ground. I'm stoked about these, actually. Both of these new projects, though, they'll.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Both be fun to work on, too. There are these design companies. Like, there's one called Ideo. I think I'm now off the top of the dome here. But essentially, you know, they're designers and they do all kinds of different kinds of projects. And think about it. And this is the kind of job I wish I knew existed when I was, like, 19. Right. Or like a think tank. Like, not. Not one of those kinds. Like a heritage. No, no, thank you. I don't want to really think about politics that much, but, like, I remember one of my roommates in college said, the job I want is just for people to ask my opinion on things. And I was like, what are you talking about?

[Sponsor Announcer]

Yeah, you want to have an incubator?

[Jeff O'Neill]

I was like, what are you talking about? And then now I'm like, oh, he knew. He knew that.

[Sponsor Announcer]

He did.

[Jeff O'Neill]

He knew at 19.

[Sponsor Announcer]

Right. Because this, like, the incubator thing did not. As a concept, when we were young people conceptualizing our careers, I really feel like that's a product of, like, this big startup wave and the Internet era. But I agree. I would. Maybe that's what we'll do. Like our. We're in 2.0 now. Like Shinsky, only two. Three.

[Jeff O'Neill]

We've only made it to two. Oh, my God. I've ever heard.

[Sponsor Announcer]

Okay, whatever it is. 5.0. What. What number would you.

[Jeff O'Neill]

This arbitrary number makes me feel better than you.

[Sponsor Announcer]

Yeah, this is what. Whatever calms you down. Right now that we'll have some kind of Creative Inc. Next. That sounds like a good time.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah. It's like Bell Labs, but then you actually had to knew how to do science, which is. That's not going to work for me.

[Sponsor Announcer]

Yeah, but we know how to do ideas.

[Jeff O'Neill]

We do. And also over the Patreon, if you're interested in reading along our Next book club selection over there is Kazuo Ishuguro's the Berry Giant on the occasion of his 10th anniversary. That's one you're going to check. That's a big 2025 checkbox for you as the Berry Giant.

[Sponsor Announcer]

It is. It is. Because I, you know, I'm not. It won't be my completion of the Ishiguro verse. There's a couple of the older ones I haven't read, but it's the last of the contemporary kind of beloved ones that I need to check off. And then you'll have to find something new to make fun of me for having not read.

[Jeff O'Neill]

That's not gonna be a challenge.

[Sponsor Announcer]

No, I was joking last night. We delayed that episode a couple of times just because of scheduling difficulties. And I was like, you know, we could just delay it again. It's kind of becoming a bit. That.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Just some bit within a bit. It's like a sub bit at this point.

[Sponsor Announcer]

We'll record the Buried Giant right after we do Lonesome Dove.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, I'll be curious to see because then as part of that conversation, we can do a mini issue guru ranking because I think. I think the top tier is pretty clear to me. Remains of the Day, Claire and the sun and Never Let Me Go. I don't think Barry Jeiner. The other ones are close there, I think. Didn't he do like a book of lyrics or something? Some other novelty thing that I've noticed.

[Sponsor Announcer]

I recently had occasion to go down the Ishiguro rabbit hole and he has written lyrics for.

[Jeff O'Neill]

That's what a jazz singer.

[Sponsor Announcer]

A jazz singer for decades and for many of her albums. And he just had a book, I think it was last year, a beautiful, like, hardcover book of lyrics from one of the albums. But I just. I first became aware that he did this last year when the book was coming out. And then in my rabbit hole last week, I discovered he's actually been working with her for quite a while. Interesting. Like, just an interesting guy. I also watched his Nobel speech and it is like the one thing I've ever seen on YouTube where all of the comments are lovely.

[Jeff O'Neill]

You've got to be a special kind of troll to roll on to a Nobel Prize in Literature comment section and.

[Sponsor Announcer]

But I mean, welcome to some racism or something. Like, I was just expecting there to be somebody as gross in all the. In every comment section on YouTube, right? Like, this is just a law of the Internet. And I was scrolling and I just kept clicking like, see more comments. And they were just all lovely. And I thought, you know, if anybody could pull that off, it's ishiguro.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I think one another place that I found the YouTube comments are good and I don't spend a lot of time on YouTube, but every now and again, I don't know, I get sucked into like music videos or live performances by artists or songs that I like. And generally those are pretty wholesome. They don't tend to be a lot of like, I don't know, nasty man cell, whatever we're trying to avoid, it doesn't tend to be those things. Okay with that? Let's do our first sponsor break.

[Sponsor Announcer]

This episode is sponsored by Harper Muse, publisher of Everything Is Probably Fine by Julia London. Stick around after the show to hear an excerpt from the audiobook. After a major misstep at work, driven and prickly, Lorna Lott is forced into a 30 day wellness program or she'll risk losing the promotion she's worked so hard for. To move forward, she must confront her complicated past, including the pain of her sister's addiction. With help from an unexpected friendship with a young neighbor and his dad, Lorna begins a journey of forgiveness, healing and second chances. Written by Julia London and narrated by Marnie Penning, Everything Is Probably Fine is a heartfelt story of growth, humor and hope. It shows it's never too late to reset your life, confront your past and change direction. This new audiobook edition gives a sharp and relatable take on burnout, ambition and the cost of chasing success at all costs with a unique genre of workplace pressure meets personal healing. Again, stick around after the show to hear an audiobook excerpt from Everything Is Probably Fine by Julia London.

[WhatsApp Announcer]

Today's episode is brought to you by SJP Litt, Publishers of I Am you by Victoria Redel. When Gerda is forced to live as a boy in 1660s Amsterdam, she meets Maria. Brilliant, beautiful and determined to conquer the male dominated art world, Gerda learns at Maria's side and soon their bond grows to something far more passionate. Fans of Portrait of a Lady on Fire will love this sensuous reimagining of the life of Dutch painter Maria von Oosterwijk. Coming September 30th Sarah Jessica Parker says IMU is quote, spellbinding, wonderfully atmospheric and impossible to forget. And Michael Cunningham, Pulitzer Prize winning author of Day and the Hours, says IMU is quote, a stunning accomplishment. While Maria rises in the ranks of society as a painting prodigy, Gerda makes herself invaluable in every way. Confidant, muse, lover. But as Gerda steps into her own talents. Their relationship fractures into a complex web of obsession and rivalry, and the secrets they keep threaten to unravel everything. Make sure to pick up I Am you by Victoria Rudle and thanks again to SJP lit for sponsoring this episode.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Today's episode is sponsored by Harlequin Publishers of let's Give Em Pumpkin to Talk about by Isabel Popp Textile artist Sadie Fox did not sign up for this when she agreed to come home to Pea Blossom, Indiana. It was to care for her father's beloved pumpkin patch. The deal was that just for the summer, she would grow a ginormous pumpkin, win the Indiana State Fair's pumpkin contest, and finally win back her father's grudging respect. Instead, a horde of wild hogs destroyed the entire patch. Which is precisely when the annoyingly sexy sunshiny next door neighbor shows up. Josh Thatcher is a tech millionaire who traded in the office for growing gourds including experimental squash hybrids. And for the life of her, Sadie can't understand what he sees in her sweary tattooed prickly self or why he's offering to help his biggest competitor. But a storm fueled kiss proves there's something growing between them. Maybe it's just an attraction. Maybe it's more. Whatever it is, it's already bigger than Sadie's fast growing pumpkin or the secret that Josh has been hiding. This is a spicy small town fall romance that you can read in one sitting. The perfect kind of read to transition from summer to fall. And this book is by one of our very own Book Riot contributors, Isabelle Popp. The book is available [e-mail] thank you once again to Harlequin for sponsoring today's show.

[Jeff O'Neill]

So is it do you have something more interesting to say than cosine? Like what else do you want to bring to this thing? My little mini half baked take monologue soapbox moment?

[Sponsor Announcer]

You know, mostly it is a cosine, but I've been thinking about it all week because I have now also seen the 1995 New York Times Best of the Year and there's oh, we haven't.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Talked about this on the show.

[Sponsor Announcer]

No, just the eye popping number of ads that were in it that sort of launched your proposal to Vanessa last week. About right. Is there a case for publisher to be made about publishers supporting independent media? And as I've thought about it, I mean I agree and I think it comes from both the business case side and the sort of ethics side of it. An audience building that if you want there to be places to advertise a diverse array of books. You need to support the kinds of outlets that cover a diverse array of books. That's the business case. But also then you will sell more of those diverse books and that builds your market and it allows those outlets to continue existing. And then you get a wonderful self perpetuating cycle because it feeds in so much to the conversation that we've been having recently about how we're both watching this sort of reversion to less diverse reading happening. You talked about how Danica had pointed out that all of the top 50 most popular books on Goodreads, which we.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Haven'T talked about on the show, we haven't talked about.

[Sponsor Announcer]

Oh, that was in Today in books, right?

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah.

[Sponsor Announcer]

That all 50 authors in the top 50 books on Goodreads one week were white. And it's been a while since we've seen that Goodreads tends to skew wider than a lot of the like, editorial curated places because it is reflecting mainstream reading. And mainstream reading preferences are driven by the same things that our preferences for everything else are driven by. If you're not interrogating them, just, you know, unconscious bias and what the algorithm serves you. And maybe it's also because I'm listening to Algo speak right now, which makes me want to walk into the sea and like. Or maybe at least just throw my phone into the sea of like, which you.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Which. Which is a phrase you picked up from the Internet. Right. So that's just part of it, man. There's no, there's no getting away from it.

[Sponsor Announcer]

Yeah, but just of how much we are shaped and how much our habits and preferences and buying patterns are being shaped by algorithms that have interest and are intended to do something other than what's good for us.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, that's right.

[Sponsor Announcer]

And so yes, support independent media for all the reasons.

[Jeff O'Neill]

You know, it's interesting. We, we have. So we have Book Riot All Access that's different than the Patreon membership, but the principle is the same, which is we have mostly free content, but some of it is paywalled and some of the stuff that used to be free on the site is now paywalled. I think 20% ish of our content is now behind a paywall. And the All Access membership is five bucks a month or fifty dollars a year, so you can get it down to four bucks. And I've seen a few comments on like Facebook posts and other things like, oh, darn paywall, whatever. These paywalls are driving me nuts. I am sympathetic to that. And on the other Hand, the money has to come from somewhere. I mean, there's only like three. Well, there's what, four places you can get money from for a media company. One is audience members. You charge them directly. Two is advertising. Three is the government. Right. You could get arts funding or you can get other non kind of nonprofit or patronage of some kind, you know, like the Atlantic or some other places or the Paris Review, which was founded by the CIA. Like the money has to come from somewhere. There is no secret third thing that is not advertising or those things. And all of them come with strings. There is no free lunch when you're choosing which one to do. We do really before like two years ago, three years ago, as I started the start of the Patreon Patreon three years ago.

[Sponsor Announcer]

Yeah.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Was all advertising based. And as you know, we are trying to grow and try other kinds of content that don't support themselves through advertising alone. Can you get them supported from reader stuff? And then you diversify so that if you have. If the publishing industry has a bad quarter or for whatever reason, you lose a client at one of the major firms, you have some buttressing there. But like there are virtually no. I can't think of any audience only supported book media company things. Everyone has advertising. All of them do, right?

[Sponsor Announcer]

Yeah. And it's a. I know paywalls, especially if you grew up on the free. Everything is free Internet are annoying and the economy is what it is. And it can be expensive, but it's. This was a very unusual period in media where content was just available for free because it had advertising in it. Historically, you paid for your subscription to the newspaper and the newspaper made money that way. And the newspaper made money because people paid to advertise from their classified ads.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Essentially, that's what the newspaper.

[Sponsor Announcer]

Back in 1995, I would have paid.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Dollars because we were born in the 1900s for that.

[Sponsor Announcer]

Yeah. In that 1995, I would have paid dollars to get the hard copy of the New York Times. And the publishers that put all of those ads into the Best Books of the Year issue would also have paid dollars to have them in there. The media company had multiple revenue streams and the sort of like web 2.0 expectation that content is free just because or should be free just because it has advertising in it has proven to be unsustainable. A lot of web companies that tried to just go that route have gone out of business because they either could not pay writers a sustainable wage to continue doing the work, or they just couldn't support business operations. So like, nobody likes the compromises that have to be made. But I think moving to a model that is both advertising supported and some in some way audience supported, like this is more of the traditional way that media has functioned and businesses do things for reasons and it's because having multiple modes of support and income makes you more sustainable and also gives you a greater defense if one of those modes becomes threatened. Like, I don't know, the day that we woke up and Facebook had instituted an algorithm that cut our traffic down to 16% of what it had been before.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah. And you know, as we're seeing with the current administration, if you get your money from one of these other sources, those can go over every night because of the capricious system of the people in charge.

[Sponsor Announcer]

Right.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I mean, that goes for the Ford foundation as well as the nea. I mean that's just true that it hasn't happened in a while doesn't mean it can't happen. So again, I'm sympathetic too. There's a lot of people with their hats out asking for money. I totally get that. If you consume media, especially the smaller the better. I'd say if you can throw the smaller the company is, your $5 mean actually more to them at that point. And the other thing is that small media companies like ours, or even media companies that don't participate in the algorithm, because that's maybe bringing it back to the algorithm. The algospeak thing is those are free for a reason and they have engineered with an inch of our collective consciousnesses the ways to keep most people on for as long as they can, to serve them as many as you can. And that's the anti pattern of advertising as your only model is you're going to do things that are not really in anyone's interests necessarily besides your own. One nice thing about a listener supported model, at least even partially, is you kind of need to make stuff people want to listen to or read. Whereas with TikTok and other things, it's like, I don't know, do people feel good about all the time they spend on those places? I don't think so. I like to think they say no, no. But when people are reading a newspaper or magazine or website that they like or a podcast that they like, I think most people enjoy and think of that time as spent differently than scroll, flip, swipe, like it is a different kind of attention and energy. So you know, this is, this is a thing. But also, just to go Back to the 1995 New York Times, could you Believe it though. Did you scroll all the way through? Did you see like. I thought it was kind of a joke at first. There were so many.

[Sponsor Announcer]

I know I came to it late because I was out when we got the email from our little birdie and then I saw the email exchange where you were basically just like, holy crap, I can't believe this.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I can't believe it. I subscribed to the print New York Times and I just was looking at the, the Sunday Book Review this morning. I think there was one ad for a book and it was for like a New York Times co thing with 10 Street Press. Like it was an. It was a New York Times joint.

[Sponsor Announcer]

You know. I think we should also point out this is a tough thing that publishers are dealing with. Like the fact that TikTok has, at least for a little while and in certain segments led to a boost in book sales is a huge surprise because TikTok's incentive is to just keep you on TikTok forever. And publishing is competing with that. It is competing with all of the other platforms and modes of media that wants your attention. Publishers have limited dollars as well and they're trying to maximize the impact of those dollars and get people's attention so that they can sell their books. And it must be difficult to try to hold that and get like the value per click that you need for book advertising. And also consider like if you are in a position where your business allows you to consider sort of the ethical implications of should I throw some of my advertising dollars to particular companies because of the kinds of work they do or the ways that they support books and reading? And I think rank and file publishing folks are really behind that and it's probably much more difficult to execute it at the decision making levels.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, I would think so. And the algorithm thing I wrote, I dedicated an entire Today in books send to the Goodreads thing and it was mostly woe is me. I ended it saying, I don't have a good answer. I'm not done thinking about it. I don't think anyone's done thinking about it. But it seems intransigent in a way that I've never really felt it was intransigent like this before, even in the darker days of 10 or 15 years ago. Maybe we should get someone on from we need diverse books to talk to us about what their thinking is at this point because they've been doing this at a much bigger scale and longer time than we have. What are their ideas? Because I. Fighting, fighting the algorithm seems like an idiotic thing to try to do. Like, is this just going to be what it is until this thing gets outlawed or there's an unmasked, like unsubscribe. Like I, that, that's the thing. So Adam Electric's book, I'll go speak. I interviewed him in First Edition. You're reading the book right now. Like it's brought home. And again, the ubiquity and the terrifying evolutionary force of these competitive dynamics that happen. I don't see a way out of it, Rebecca. I really don't. Yeah, that's that while these things are.

[Sponsor Announcer]

In ascendance, I don't either. And the thing that really has struck me about it is that, you know, he's, he's also an influencer. He's a linguist and an influencer. And so he's invested in participating in the algorithm, clearly understands it very well, is less critical than I would like somebody writing about this to be. But I understand how and why he might have arrived in that place. But that he talks about this is not the first time that there have been that technology has influenced the way that we see speak. Like we got writing, like writing became a thing. We haven't always had writing as humans and that gave us a new way to express language. And then we got the printing press and then we got the Internet and all of those things amplified writing and expanded how we use language and what TikTok, particularly TikTok, but all of the algorithms that we encounter. It feels to me like yes, language is evolving, but it's contracting. That we have fewer and fewer ways to express ourselves and that there are fewer and fewer subjects that we can freely talk about. Because so like Algo speak as he's writing the book about it is about all the language that we have had to evolve, like special terminology or weird spellings of things or uses of emojis in place of words in order to get around Internet censorship. And not just censorship of like we don't want you to talk about that subject but well intended censorship. We don't want people to use words that might be abusive. But because these platforms are so huge, they're going into automatic like AI driven filters that can't detect nuance in how the language is used. So you might use a word in an academic or informative or medical context, but, but the algorithm doesn't know that the, the filter does not know that you won't be able to distribute your content, you'll be suppressed. And that's upsetting to me. Like that's the thing I think we should be worried about that we keep having to like move into smaller and smaller circles because eventually the filters learn the new term that people are using and then we have to come up with another term to get around the thing. And there is the argument, I guess on the other side that yes, but we people continue to find ways to talk, to have these conversations and to get around these filters, but that not just how we speak, but what we can speak and connect with each other about is driven by trying to avoid Internet filtering. And also that also all of the technology that's driven by these algorithms is incentivized just to keep you on the platform as long as possible. It's not about what's actually good for us. It's not even about what's interesting. It's about what people can say, like the content that they can say and the manner in which they can say it. That just keeps you staring at your screen.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah. I mean, and thinking about that book more. I think the algorithm differs in degree and kind from other forms of language formation. And largely because of the point you just made, which is the externality of these algorithms optimizing for your engagement and also for not getting banned in certain countries and jurisdictions normally. My understanding is that normally language evolved to be more useful to the user. The pressure here is to be less useful, but still be possible. Right. It's kind of like when my kids were young and still sometimes too, if Michelle and I needed to have like even a momentary sensitive conversation. We kind of use euphemisms or winks or nods. Right. And we could get the gist of it, but the, the full complexity was less possible. We couldn't have a sophisticated, interesting conversation. It was very pragmatic, very utilitarian, and I think that's what the conversations happening now. I mean, maybe this is as simple. You just can't say the word racism.

[Sponsor Announcer]

Right, Right.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Just. Just an example. You just can't talk about it. I mean, you can use code words and sort of Tiktokology, Kremlin stuff, but the more those things get winnowed away to use codes or secret sort of emoji strings to get an idea across. Those ideas impoverished, those are less complex ideas rather than more complex ideas because you're spending all of your intellectual capital on trying to avoid the censor rather than moving the conversation forward or having an interesting conversation during even doing anything, thinking you have to come through sort of. It's almost like intellectual survival tactics rather than thriving tactics.

[Sponsor Announcer]

There's a quote from like an early Facebook engineer who says something like, I've seen the greatest minds of my generation wasted on trying to get people to click ads on the Internet. And I think the new version of that is something like I've seen the greatest minds of my generation wasted on figuring out how to get you to watch a TikTok for 1.5 seconds longer.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Right? And we know we've done some look ourselves. The difference is slight. The difference between something going it's like this, these little margins are quite possible. So anyway, that's a long way of saying, you know, don't Grinch about a company asking for five bucks a month if that's something you were grinching about. Thank you so much. Everybody subscribes to the Patreon and Book Ride. All Access Us.

[Sponsor Announcer]

We appreciate you. Uhhuh.

[Jeff O'Neill]

We do.

[WhatsApp Announcer]

Today's episode is brought to you by splashtide Publishing, llc, publishers of the Last Time I Killed him by April Savage now, if you're into broken hearts, curses and Vikings, I have something for you. Liv has to run. Eric has to hunt her. The curse makes them do both. After Liv's Viking village raids Iona Abbey In Scotland in 795 AD, Liv and Eric are afflicted with the curse of the heart that gives them immort. But this living curse doesn't want to die, and the matters of the heart make living without each other more painful than dying. Their hearts pull them together throughout the ages as the curse won't die and they are immortal. Liv and Eric must find relics to break the curse. A monk is forced to join their immortality to guide them. They have to use the aid of Coronian pirates to help her find the relics. It's just a whole bunch of stuff going on. This is a very unique, interesting premise. Historical, romantic, all those good things. Make sure to check out the Last Time I Killed him by April Savage and thanks again to splashtide Publishing LLC for sponsoring this episode.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Today's episode is brought to you by Kanopy. Stream Smarter Use your library card. We all know streaming is a little bit out of control these days. There's just so many different apps that you have to have to get all of the content that you want to watch. But on the Kanopy app you can stream thousands, thousands of movies or TV shows for free thanks to the generous support of your public library. A moment for libraries just they're the best. All you need is a library card to access popular movies and TV shows. Read alongs and kids programming on your smart TV tablet, phone or browser. Visit Kanopy.com to find a library near you and stream smarter for free. Today again, that is kanopy.com thank you once again to Kanopy for sponsoring today's show.

[Jeff O'Neill]

This Friday, Jamie Lee Curtis and Lindsay Lohan are back to switch things up in Disney's Freakier Friday.

[Sponsor Announcer]

Oh, yeah. Yes.

[Jeff O'Neill]

It's an absolute riot and the only movie that can be described as so.

[Sponsor Announcer]

Much weirder than the last time. What last time?

[Jeff O'Neill]

It's the Freequel.

[Sponsor Announcer]

You ready?

[Jeff O'Neill]

We've been waiting for that Absolutely.

[Sponsor Announcer]

Slays. What deeply out of touch old person came up with that?

[Narrator]

You did.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Wow. Don't miss the comedy event of the summer for all ages. Disney's Freakier Friday in theaters this Friday. Get tickets now. Rated pg. Parental guidance suggested. Breaking news this morning.

[Sponsor Announcer]

Yes.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Is there anything else about the Goodreads list that you wanted to say? I mean, no, I really am not. I really don't have much interesting to say about it. I really don't. I don't feel like I do.

[Sponsor Announcer]

I don't think there's anything new to say about it. Just this is where we are again.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah. Kamala publishing a memoir. We got the Biden news last week, which we didn't. Vanessa. I think it came out on a Friday after we'd already recorded the show. So the 2020 years are getting them checks. Is this anything? I also saw John Fetterman signed a book today. I think, of course, Biden is like this is what you do when you're president. You write one. It's kind of an interesting moment for Kamala to do a book like this. Rebecca.

[Sponsor Announcer]

It is. You know, this is today as we're recording, July 31st is the one year anniversary from when she announced her run for president. Yesterday she announced that she would not be running for governor of California in 2026. So it was the not running for governor announcement then. The book announ. The book is called 107 days, which was the length of her campaign last year. It's coming out from Simon and Schuster on September 23rd. So very soon she announced it in a video that's on all the places with all the algorithms where you can see videos and emphasize that it's not a campaign document, but it's a behind the scenes like personal account of the journey and of what she experienced. The most interesting thing to me about this is that details of the deal were not disclosed. We do not know how much this book deal was. I don't know what to make of that. It's not always announced, but like presidential memoirs, you tend to get the high profile numbers. So I don't. I don't know. I'm just thinking about the Biden announcement last week and the 10 million, which is not nothing, but it's also not the Obama level where I think Kamala might have landed. I think this probably big money. It's going to be very interesting, I think.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Probably so. The. The Biden deal was reportedly $10 million. And I don't know what the politics or the uses of leaking or not leaking that stuff. I don't know if the publisher slash publicity team, slash author agent teams would prefer the numbers be out there or not. I would assume not. I would assume that's someone wanting to get their name in page 6 or get a.

[Sponsor Announcer]

Get a maybe. The Obama deal was pretty historic and it was, you know, his two books and then she had books and there's like a whole. They have a whole media emp. I think they have some investment in the numbers being out there. This is going to come out well before Joe Biden's book does. So I think that one of the biggest questions will be about her experience finally becoming the nominee. The controversy over the fact that there was not an open convention, that she was just anointed by the party. Was that the problem in the primary or the lack of a primary? I don't know. My take is like. Like, if Joe Biden's book is not titled 107 Days, colon, I'm sorry I didn't drop out in 2022. Like, I'm not interested. So the sales of this, I think, are like how she compares to the Joe Biden sales ultimately will be interesting. But also, he is old and is still working on the book and. Well, I mean, will we.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Well, there's no particular hurry, I think, for his where I don't think there's.

[Sponsor Announcer]

Much hunger for it.

[Jeff O'Neill]

The question behind the question with this book and Fetterman's book too is like releasing books is something you do to keep your name in there, reset the narrative, have a reason to go do a media tour a year out from midterms in 2026 and there's another presidential race coming up.

[Sponsor Announcer]

Yeah, this could be a setup. Like, Kamala Harris has a previous memoir that is certainly a campaign document. It'll be interesting to see what this is. Does it feel like a resetting of the narrative? There were a lot of things that it seemed like she either didn't want to say or was told not to say. Or to talk about during the campaign. So how open will this be? Will it be critical of the Biden administration in any ways? Like, if this is a book where she creates a lot of distance between herself and the Biden administration, I think that will be an interesting hint that she might be planning a run for something again in 2028.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I mean you have. She has to be considered. I mean, I don't follow this on a date, but you have to at.

[Sponsor Announcer]

Least like there is going to be a lot of reading the tea Leave around. Around the contents of the book or like the contents of Fetterman. I think probably just trying to keep his name out there as well. I don't. We don't need to talk about John Fetterman at all here on the Book Riot podcast. And the Biden one I think will be a historical document because as you were saying, that's what you do after you are the president, is you write about your experience being the president.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah. And I mean and he has terms in the Obama administration and a long political. There's a lot. There's a lot to talk about there. Okay. We thought the big story of the week was going to be the Booker Prize long list because they certainly have the most sane application eligibility window which was. These are for books published between 1971 and 2003. No. What. What is this?

[Sponsor Announcer]

Their eligibility.

[Jeff O'Neill]

September to October.

[Sponsor Announcer]

What it is. I don't know why this is. This is the worst one.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Worst.

[Sponsor Announcer]

It is. So books eligible for the 2025 Booker Prize for Fiction were. Pub. October 1st of 2024 and September 30th of this year of 2020.

[Jeff O'Neill]

That is. That literally is in fear. That doesn't help anyone do anything.

[Sponsor Announcer]

No, I don't care what the reasons were for the original use of these dates. Please just. I am once again asking you to go.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Because of this.

[Sponsor Announcer]

Just all of it.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I'm not going the whole thing.

[Sponsor Announcer]

Really. Stick it to the man.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah. Come. This is. This is not. This is nonsensical.

[Sponsor Announcer]

It's so annoying. And I'm sure someone somewhere is like. But there's a reason it's. I don't care. There can't be a good one. What I mean, book awards should be on the calendar.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Do they have somebody hostage? Like, I don't know what a reason I would accept. Like someone literally. They. They lost a bet and some form triggered.

[Sponsor Announcer]

With somebody like, okay, we. We're gonna give the awards in October and so. Or in November. I don't even know when they're giving them, but like, I think it's given in November, so we need to cut it off in September and then we'll just roll backwards. Like, let us just do the calendar year. The National Book Award will be awarded in the fall around the same time as the booker, and it will be books for this whole calendar year. So it can be done.

[Jeff O'Neill]

And, and literally when we're doing like the power ranking episodes or like historical lookbacks, I kind of ignore the booker because I'm like, I don't know, one year.

[Sponsor Announcer]

Anything you have to do extra layers of research of like, was it published in the year that it won? Did it come out the year before?

[Jeff O'Neill]

And was it in English or was it in Google?

[Sponsor Announcer]

Granted, that's like one extra Google, but this is, it's very, this is very annoying. But the good news for you is that Audition by Katie Kitamura is one of the long listed titles. And good news for me too. Also my favorite book of the year, but you got it in our fantasy league draft, so all I've got to.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Say about that is pure taste. That's all. I mean, that's really the only comment I can provide.

[Sponsor Announcer]

Genuinely surprised I didn't get some kind of booyah text.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Well, I mean, not humbling, but I didn't. You know, I liked Flashlight by Susan Choi, but it would not have been on my list. But beyond that, there's a couple books I've heard of, but it's not a lot. There's not a lot of a daunt book's original, which I thought was interesting.

[Sponsor Announcer]

Yeah, I think misinterpreted by Lidiashoka. The only other one of the thirteen long listed titles besides Audition and Flashlight that I kind of perked up at was the Loneliness of Sonja and Sunny by Kieran Desai, which I think comes.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Out in the fall here.

[Sponsor Announcer]

Yes, yes, it's coming out in the fall here. Their previous book, Inheritance of Loss, I believe was well received, won some awards, and Desai kind of lives in a zone that could be book club friendly. So it's going to be interesting to see what that book does as well. Shortlist to be announced in September, I believe, and the winner will come out in November.

[Jeff O'Neill]

It's so funny then to look at the imprints because it feels like I'm looking at a movie about publishing where they have to change the names to avoid. Because it's like, like Kitamura is published by. What is it here? Fern Press. Sure. No idea what that is. That.

[Sponsor Announcer]

Is that a random here?

[Jeff O'Neill]

Well, Faber is A big deal in the uk. What the equivalent would be like fsg, I think. I think so, yeah, probably something like that. So anyway, I'll be very interested to not talk about this out of protest when they announce the short list.

[Sponsor Announcer]

I'm sure they'll change because they found.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Out that we're gonna, if somebody knows, literally podcast a book, maybe I should email them to ask like what, Why I don't have any. I'll tell you one thing, they really do a number on their photography. They spend money, they do have own publicity.

[Sponsor Announcer]

This have beautiful, unbelievably beautiful creative assets for it. So good job there. Other interesting Booker adjacent stuff is that Sarah Jessica Parker, famously bookish, she was on the judging panel for this year's Booker Prize, and the Guardian reported earlier this week that she has a conflict of interest. She disclosed it, but it's that there's actually kind of two conflicts of interest with the same author. Sarah Jessica Parker's imprint SJP for Hogarth released Claire Adams debut novel Golden Child in 2019. Adams's new novel, Love form, made the long list for the Booker and is currently in production with Sarah Jessica Parker's production company. And this Booker piece by Ella Creamer is like shruggy emoji about this because they interviewed the chief executive of the Booker foundation who says it's not uncommon. People in publishing know each other. We just ask all of the judges to disclose things. Sarah Jessica Parker disclosed the relationship. Nobody has been keeping this a secret. Like, they also have quotes from Claire Adams, Sarah Jessica Parker, and from the chief executive of Booker from earlier events this year acknowledging that these book deals are happening. Not the book deal, but the adaptation is happening. But it really, for me raised a question of like, okay, it's great that she disclosed this. And the Booker foundation says, you know, like, no book can make the longlist based on the support of just one judge. So Love form has earned its way onto the list, but we just have to take their word for it. And I think that really sucks for Claire Adams and for readers. Like, if the fact that one of the judges published your previous novel and is adapting your current novel is not a conflict of interest, that is disqualifying. What would be a conflict of interest? That's disqualifying. This is not like we were in the same MFA program or we have the same agent or they wrote me a blurb on my first.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Because you couldn't do. You couldn't do that if that was the thing, right?

[Sponsor Announcer]

And those are like, publishing is a Small world. Gabby Wood from the Booker foundation is not wrong. Like, and people do have those conflicts or like maybe I was their teacher in their MFA program, I could even see like that happening. But if a judge is not asked to recuse themselves over a conflict like this, what would be disqualifying? And I think it's a real disservice to readers and to the author. Like, because you want to know that a book made its way onto a list like this based on its own merits. I have not read this book. I'm sure that it's good. I believe, Gabby would that it had to have the support of multiple people to make it on the long list. But there are so few opportunities like this for authors. Making it onto a major award longlist is a big deal. And to have it tainted in any way or to put question marks around it in any way in readers minds is just unfortunate and I think really unnecessary.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, I mean, I hear you. I think structurally you are directionally you are correct. I think the difference for me is that I actually don't believe that Sarah Jessica Parker stands to benefit one iota from it. I don't think it matters to that production that this does anything. I mean the, I think the affinity, of course you'd be more affinity for. But in terms of having perverse incentives or something like that, I just don't think, frankly it's in its shade on the idea of a Booker long list thing that getting nominated for an award has no bearing anymore if it ever did on the artistic or commercial success of your project. It just doesn't have any bearing on it. The stranger one. It's not stranger. I think, I think it would make a lot of sense. I think it would garner a lot of good faith if Parker had recused herself and said, you know, of course I love this book, but y', all, you know, if we need to do, if we need to do 3 out of 5 normally we need to do 3 out of 4 this time for it to make the long list.

[Sponsor Announcer]

It's just an unnecessarily bad look.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Here's another strange one. Natasha Brown is nominated. She this year is charging, is chairing the judging panel for the International Book of this year. Speaking of conflicts of weird conflicts of interest and that that's just on the press release. That's just, that's not, you know, investigative reporting by the Guardian. They just put that on there. I mean, I don't know what else you're supposed to do.

[Sponsor Announcer]

She couldn't control that. She was Nominated. And maybe there's. That seems to me like there's less potential for, I don't know, shenanigans.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Just strange. It just shows how small these.

[Sponsor Announcer]

Publishing is such a small world.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Like, but maybe you shouldn't share one of the award communities in a year when you have a book out. But that would be easier said than done if anyone knew what your, your book was eligible for as a Booker Prize.

[Sponsor Announcer]

Right. Yeah. I was talking to a friend whose brother is trying to get a book published, is querying publishers, and we're talking about blurbing and does it matter or does it not? And when I. And this person has no experience in publishing, like, works in politics, it's not coming from the world of books. And when I was like, hand me anything on the bestseller list with blurbs, and I can tell you how that author got that blurb. Like, and I'm not exaggerating. Like, more times than not, I'm going to be able to say, like, oh, because they know each other from this thing, or they have the same agent, or, oh, that person had a debut novel out the same year and they blurbed you. They've been blurbing each other the whole time. Like, publishing is so small. And I understand that these conflicts happen, but this just was raised my eyebrows a little bit and just. It seems unnecessary. Certainly Sarah Jessica Parker doesn't need, like, the profile bump, whatever it might be, of being a Booker Prize judge.

[Jeff O'Neill]

No, no, I, I honestly believe she does this because she, she wants to.

[Sponsor Announcer]

Sure. She. I believe that she loves books. She's got her imprint. She has stayed dedicated to working on that for years, longer than, like anyone has paid attention to the fact that Sarah Jessica Parker has an imprint, seems to do interesting things.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Just should have stepped down, you know, it's. This is a, this is a tangent. It's gonna take me a while to loop back, but just give me three minutes.

[Sponsor Announcer]

Let me just settle in.

[Jeff O'Neill]

So I showed The Kids the 2003 version of Chicago the other night. We like musicals. No one's ever looked better than Catherine Zeta Jones in that movie. And the music's unbelievable. They were kind of blown away. Like, we rewatched some of the sections and we've been having the, the playlist on, but we were in the car listening to the Spotify version, and they have on that a couple of the cut songs. And I don't know. I actually don't know the original musical. There's this one called Class that's, I think, in the original musical, but. And there was A version of it with Latifah and at least Zellweger, or not Zellweger, Zeta Jones and Latifah singing it. And it's all about how like, no one has any manners anymore in those class anymore. And this is not about Sarah Jessica Parker. But all they're saying is like, the thing that struck me is I don't know if I've. I've never lived through a time where manners, forthrightness, just general. Like class has been at a lower point just online, everywhere, 100%. No one is interested in any accountability or any like, taking the high. The high road is available if anyone wants to take it. There's no traffic up there because you could, you can, you can. There's no cops, there's no speed limits right now. You can fly down the high. No one's taking the high road. You know what?

[Sponsor Announcer]

Not a lot of user engagement on the high road. That's what's happening.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Well, I think that's part of it, right? And you know, the current administration has done phenomenally, unexpectedly, shockingly, terrifyingly well, going under the low road and not even acknowledge the high road exists, thinking that's for suckers and losers and weak willed whatevers. But boy, could I use some class. And I think I'm transitioning a little bit to George Saunders here because when I think of class in the literary community, I do think of George Saunders both in terms of his artistic ability, his commitment to teaching. I read his newsletter and there's a thoroughgoing sense of humanity and forthrightness and wanting to do the right thing for its own sake and have interesting conversations and have interesting thoughts. That feels to me to be extraordinarily short supply, maybe shorter than I can ever remember it being.

[Sponsor Announcer]

I agree.

[Jeff O'Neill]

So there we go. That's my transition.

[Sponsor Announcer]

You texted me about this George Saunders new book announcement that happened when I was out on PTO and I had. I have the same feelings like Saunders always feels like a breath of fresh air to me. The books are wonderful, but the way that he shows up just to participate in the world seems like he cares about being.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I've heard wonderful things about him as a teacher, sort of secondhand from people.

[Sponsor Announcer]

There's a level of care and intention and attention and a class act, I think, in many of the senses. But the part that you had texted me. So Saunders has a new novel coming out in January.

[Jeff O'Neill]

This is it. This is the root. This is what I'm here for.

[Sponsor Announcer]

Yeah, it's called Vigil. Sort of a companion to Lincoln in the Bardo, which was his novel that came out in 2017, about Abraham Lincoln grieving the death of his son. And we've been talking about how authors are just hitting us over the head with the point of things lately. And Saunders wants to take our preferred path, saying, quote, we're starting with Chekhov, so, you know, it's going to be good.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I mean, it all starts with Chekhov.

[Sponsor Announcer]

With Sanders, it just like Chekhov said, art doesn't have to solve a problem, it just has to formulate it correctly. So instead of saying, here, world, here's my fully formed opinion, you end up taking yourself on a little trip in the direction of more complexity, more ambiguity, a deeper understanding. In this sense, the product is even more political because it's charged not only with opinion, possibly anger, but also with more sympathy. Just the slowest clap and the loudest Amen. That is all I want in my reading life is somebody who is interested in opening up the questions for us and saying, like, let's dwell in these. I mean, this is also why I'm stoked about reading Ishiguro next week, because he reliably does.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Our shared affection for audition, I think, is.

[Sponsor Announcer]

Yes.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Runs springs from the. Flows from the same.

[Sponsor Announcer]

Well, give us the ambiguity and the sympathy is an interesting word here. And I think Saunders is especially interested in sympathy and empathy, in truly understanding people and truly trying to feel with them and for them and not in a performative Internet, I'm an empath way. But, like, really, what does. What does human kind of. I'm sorry, what does human connection. Connection really mean? What are the things that make us human? Saunders is deeply interested in that. I think it's at the heart of all of his work. And I'm. I'm so ready. We got a murderer's row for early January. Now, SAUNDERS or early 2026, we have Saunders. There are new Lauren Groff short stories. Like, it's gonna be a good time, but yes.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yep. Look, I mean, don't give me your.

[Sponsor Announcer]

Yeah, don't tell me what to think about the book you have just written. Just use your book to ask me to think.

[Jeff O'Neill]

The cherry on the top is he's a weirdo. Like, his brain is weird. Such a wonderful weirdo. So, anyway, new George Saunders, we're really excited. I think his last book was a January release. I don't. I have that in my mind that.

[Sponsor Announcer]

It was a. Oh, the short stories. I think you're right. Also, January or early 2026 is the 10th anniversary of 10th of December, one of his wonderful novels. And so I just might be planning for us to revisit that.

[Jeff O'Neill]

It's a good idea. You know who's been doing well? Bookshop.

[Sponsor Announcer]

Love to see it.

[Jeff O'Neill]

60. I mean, I don't know 65 years ago.

[Sponsor Announcer]

How to make sense of this number.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Well, they've been doing quite well. Andy's one of the hardest working guys in the business and also I will say a class act. I know him.

[Sponsor Announcer]

Yes, that I, I totally agree. Yeah. Like I'm not surprised that bookshop is doing well. I'm surprised that the doing well is in the form of 65% year over year growth in a year when book sales are down across the industry, like between 1 and 2%.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I do think, even as I think the Amazon antipathy is higher than it's been in some time, especially amongst those who buy books. So maybe in the cat litter part of it. I think of it as two ways. There's the book world and then there's everything else Amazon does and I don't know anything else about that world. Right. They could be doing great for all I know. But on the book side world, there's all kinds of antipathy for Amazon. The best example is just very anecdotal, which is during prime days we posted about both the bookshop anti prime day free shipping on orders or there's another deal component as well. And we post about the Amazon. Here's what the best deals we could find for stuff here we're more agnostic. We want to tell people that you know what's going on. They choose. 60% of people are buying their books from Amazon. So to ignore that is as a sort of an part of what we do as a news gathering organization. I'm okay covering Amazon, but the engagement rate. The algorithm spoke.

[Sponsor Announcer]

Rebecca, the algorithm did.

[Jeff O'Neill]

The bookish algorithm spoke loudly about the affinity for bookshop. I think it was our best performing Instagram post of the quarter. It got shared all over the place. And then the comments on the Amazon one was, I can't believe you just posted to bookshop and you're doing this now. How could you? I was like, well, people buy books in both places. I don't know what to tell you. I think that's. I think that's real. I think that is absolutely real. And I think that more and more bookstores are in the ecosystem. People know what it is. Now only 5% of their sales are ebooks. Which I thought was interesting, but that does give some. That raises the bar a little bit. So I just think they're doing very well. Publishers and independent bookstores. And the soul of the American book world is with bookshop.

[Sponsor Announcer]

Totally. It just, yeah, I totally agree. This 65% is just a huge number. And when I saw the headline I thought, well, they launched ebooks in January and so maybe all of this growth is driven by E book, but really only like 5, 10% of their growth, if you're doing fuzzy math from this publisher's weekly piece, could be coming from the ebook launch. So it is coming from somewhere else and it's print books. And I think you're right that it's anti Amazon sentiment, that the book world has been against Amazon in many ways for a long time or a lot of readers have. But that hit a tipping point when Donald Trump took office again and Bezos is like fully in bed with this administration. And I think folk like that also, I think brought some folks into the Amazon anti Amazon movement that had not cared quite enough to stop buying their books from Amazon before. But I think that was a decision making point for a lot of people. Also, we had been noting for quite a while that Amazon's discounts were not as deep as they had once been, that the consumer incentive to buy from Amazon wasn't as compelling as it had been for a while. So the difference was between ordering your hardcover book from Amazon and from Bookshop is smaller than it used to be and Amazon's shipping times have gotten longer. And like I've personally been buying a bunch of bookshop books for one of our new projects and had to order something from Amazon that Bookshop didn't have in stock. But the Amazon books came at about the same time the bookshop books came. Like the timelines are pretty similar now. So you can, there is space to make a decision, a values based decision if you don't have to make a decision about price. And I think we're starting to see consumers do that.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I think that, I think those are all the stories even on that the algorithm, the affinity of the conventional wisdom of your user base on the algorithm is more towards Bookshop. I mean, Barnes and Noble has been the biggest beneficiary of the book talk boom. But I also have seen people, I saw some on Book Talk as well, you know, and the Amazon influencer program paid some book talkers to talk about Prime Day and they took some heat for it, man. They, they took like, that was the, I'm not going to say the high road because I'm talking about something different when I'm Talking about the high road. But the ethical mob was out for Amazon in that way that I think that's the only. That is what this number is about.

[Sponsor Announcer]

Yes. I think we're in a different place where like when Amazon first really started taking over book sales and the Internet started talking about it, the conversation was like, but you owe it to independent bookstores to support them. How dare anybody not support independent bookstores? You must be evil. And it was really about Amazon books versus independent bookstores. And why weren't you supporting this independent ecosystem? But the current political climate has made it so that it's not about for most consumers, I don't think anymore it's about should you be supporting one kind of bookstore or not. It's just purely, do you want your dollars going to Amazon in the same way that a lot of folks on the left like aren't going to Target anymore but are going to Costco And Target's feeling that squeeze as well. Like this is a, this is bigger than being about the book world. And I think Amazon is, we're just starting to see that reflected in how Amazon's competitors in the book world are getting a boost. But man, 65% growth year over year for anybody in any industry is a huge deal.

[Jeff O'Neill]

And especially a mature industry like bookshop.

[Sponsor Announcer]

Good job, Bookshop.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, good job for them. Let's do a sponsor break and then it's time for frontless foyer.

[Sponsor Announcer]

Abercrombie denim is everything right now.

[Narrator]

Denim should feel like this. Confident, easy, like your butt has never looked better.

[Sponsor Announcer]

If you didn't know, Abercrombie's Curve Love denim went viral in 2019 for eliminating waist gap. And it's still a game changer. Between that and their classic fits with a straighter line from waist to hip.

[Narrator]

The perfect denim does exist. Shop Abercrombie Denim in the app online and in store.

[Jeff O'Neill]

This episode is brought to you by State Farm.

[Sponsor Announcer]

Checking off the boxes on your to do list is a great feeling.

[Jeff O'Neill]

And when it comes to checking off.

[Sponsor Announcer]

Coverage, a State Farm agent can help you choose an option that's right for you.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Whether you prefer talking in person on.

[Sponsor Announcer]

The phone or using the award winning app, it's nice knowing you have help.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Finding coverage that best fits your needs.

[Sponsor Announcer]

Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Are you ready to dairy free your mind? This summer melts away your dairy free expectations with so delicious dairy free frozen desserts. Enjoy mind blowing flavors like salted caramel.

[Sponsor Announcer]

Cluster chocolate cookies and cream cookie dough and more.

[Jeff O'Neill]

For over 35 years, so delicious has been cranking up the flavor with show stopping products that are 100% dairy free, certified vegan by Vegan Action and are so unbelievably creamy your taste buds will do a double take. Dairy free your mind Visit so delicious. Dairy free.com thriftbooks 19 million books and counting Say you were going to read some classic backlist for no reason at all. Rebecca no, no. Say that was just, just, just no reason. You might want to do that. You wanted to go get a copy of something that you've been meaning to read that you and you're like, you know, there's some good, there's lots of interesting used editions I could go find. Thriftbooks is a great place that new as well. Books but also tv. You want to get a favorite TV show as a dvd you can do that. Physical media is back. I think that's another story. Rebecca is there might be a rising tide in terms of people wanting the physical thing and owning that in bookshelf is certainly a bookshop is certainly a beneficiary of that as well. Kindle and ebooks being paying the price for it. But it's nice to have on your shelf. And if you spend more than 15 bucks and you live in the US or at least your shipping address is going to somewhere in the US you can get free shipping on orders of over 15 bucks. And every purchase gets you closer to a free reading reward. And that reward is a book. Go to thriftbooks.com to check out what they've got. So you did so you did a couple things that I had done. So we already talked about Algospeak. I did a short form video about Carpool Detectives and I called it the most addictive audiobook of the year for me because I was doing the thing of like, I guess I will fold this laundry now. Maybe this pan needs a little extra scrubbing here. I need to spend a few extra minutes in the, in the with my headphones on while everyone's doing everything else. The Carpool Detectives by Chuck Hogan Rebecca speak on it for a second if you want to.

[Sponsor Announcer]

Man, it's great. I I love the citizen detective vibe that these four women who had already been pursuing new careers or trying to decide what their next career was going to be, find each other. And they have the time on their hands because it's Covid and they're so creative in how they go about trying to get information to solve this 15 year old cold case. And when you talked about it, you said like it's a process Story. This is not like the details of the grizzly true crime. And I'm here for the process story. I want to like follow you around while you knock on doors and turn rocks over and look for clues. And I really enjoyed it on audio. I think I would personally have liked it better on in print because there's so much recreation of like emails that they're sending and texts. And it's funny to me listening to a narrator be like. And then Jeff responded with hahaha. Fire emoji. Fire emoji. Fire emoji.

[Jeff O'Neill]

You know, I noted that but didn't bump on that if that makes sense. Like, like that's just how you. But I see what you're saying.

[Sponsor Announcer]

But I haven't seen the hardcover, so I'm curious too about like is it just quoted or have they done any sort of design around like what the text exchanges or emails might look like? It was just really fascinating. We talked on the IT books episode a little bit about all of the questions that it raises for how the story came to Chuck Hogan. Because the women's names, their real names are in it, but the names of the, the victims of the murder that they solved are masked. And then all the names of like everybody else are masked because it. It turns out that they got themselves. No, no, just unexpectedly into some danger by. By getting involved, trying to solve this crime and to protect themselves and a whole bunch of other people. Chuck Hogan had to change their name, had to change everybody else's names. But like how he got the story, how he got all this information from them and they decided to make it this book. And also why the hell there has not been an adaptation announcement yet is a big mystery. I really enjoyed it. I think this one can go on your list of like holiday recommendations.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Oh, it's gonna be showing up in our recommendation show. I've already. We already gonna have to quote it. We've got to like ration out our mentions of it.

[Sponsor Announcer]

It's not like, you know, not gory. Pretty close to a four quadrant. You could give it to just about anybody as a gift. I really enjoyed it. It was a great recommendation. I would not have just found my way to that one.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah. What else you got? A couple others here.

[Sponsor Announcer]

Yeah. I finished Maggie by Katie Yee, which I think I had mentioned a couple weeks ago when I was starting it. A great debut novel. Really makes me excited for whatever Katie Yee will do next. It feels to me like Jenny Awful meets Wakey Wang. Like Jenny Offal is high praise. So like but it's the vibe is in there about a woman, like early middle age. She and her husband have kids. He takes her out to dinner one night and tells her he's in love with somebody else and he's leaving her. Shortly after they separate, she gets diagnosed with breast cancer. The woman her husband has left her for is named Maggie. And so she names her tumor Maggie and starts to sort of have conversations with it. Her life is shaped by the two Maggies in this way, but just the very incisive sentences about that, this time of life, what it is to be sort of in middle age, what a marriage can feel like, how she goes about navigating this. She's a great, hilarious best friend that I really loved. Like, that's who you want riding along with you if your husband has come home and been like, I know this sucks, but she's just, she's 30 and she just really understands me. Like, yeah, you want this best friend in this book to be with you. It was so much fun. Really dug it and like, not a life changing read, but I expect to see it on a bunch of best of lists. It was very good. Kind of surprised it didn't get a book club pick, but it is a little artsy in the writing. The Jenny offal of it all might be like a little elevated, but I was really a fan and then I had really good fun. Brain candy time with Everyone is lying to you by Joe Piazza, which is about a journalist whose old friend from school has become a tradwife influencer. They haven't been in contact for like 15 years and the influencer friend contacts her and says, I have a big story that I think you're going to want to report. Let's get together at this big like influencer conference. That same weekend, the influencer's husband is murdered and of course the woman is the prime suspect. And there's other stuff going on and clearly Piazza did just like a ton of research about the influencer world and like what the politics of it are. The tradwife stuff where like all you.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Don'T think it's straightforward. It's not, it's not everything that's on the table.

[Sponsor Announcer]

No, I know it's not like, and I know, just go ahead and be surprised that like these women are performing this very, you know, traditional femininity, conservative domestic thing, but also they're making millions and millions of dollars in running very complex businesses and the like artifice around making their lives look a certain way when they're really a very different way.

[Jeff O'Neill]

No tomatoes actually look like that on a kitchen counter. No one wears that much linen. There's not that much linen in the.

[Sponsor Announcer]

Unit are like between each other in the influencer community but the politics in their marriages was really interesting. Like I kind of would rather have read Joe Piazza's investigative journalism about tradwife and influence.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I feel like we did a deals, deals, deals. I think there's a book about this coming out or something. Maybe there will be like what someone is going to do with to ML what to this MLMs a few years.

[Sponsor Announcer]

I'm ready for that. I'm ready for that. But it was juicy and a really fun read.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, sounds good.

[Sponsor Announcer]

What about you two?

[Jeff O'Neill]

To talk about my non fiction read the Brain at rest by Dr. Joseph Jabelli who is a sleep I think a neuroscientist but interested in rest and sleep. So this is pop science book in the vein of stuff we other talk about about how rest is good for you. And I know you're going to be shocked to hear based on the title that rest turns out to be very good for you.

[Sponsor Announcer]

Your brain needs it. Yes.

[Jeff O'Neill]

And it's not something I think about a lot in my own life, but I should. I don't know what else to say. The studies are compelling but even the thing I feel I've become a bit of a napper in the afternoon. Like a 20 to 30 minute nap.

[Sponsor Announcer]

Hell yeah.

[Jeff O'Neill]

And the thing I feel is also true and maybe I should take one of these like cognition tests before and after a nap. And like really I really think about moving my day around to where these things happen because I've gotten older. It used to be I felt sharpest in the morning but now I feel sharpest like 3 to 5 after I've had a 30 minute nap. After I've had a Diet Coke and a nap and a snack. And I've gotten the meetings out of the way. Like you know this is something I just. I'm always thinking about my own workflows and how I put my life together and I have a lot of flexibility. Not infinite flexibility, but I have quite a bit. There's a lot of stuff about working hours and PTO and I keep looking for the optimal pto. We've talked about this personally from an a sort of HR point of view. There's. There's nobody here. No one has it here. But just taking breaks routinely really can be helpful. His own story is fascinating. His parents are Iranian immigrants and his dad had a basically burnout breakdown that he Never recovered from, from overwork. And Jabelli has seen his mom, who was a, I think a primary educator, her own longitudinal health become compromised by long term stress. So it's not just like take a nap and you can grind be. It's not life hacking your day to make people click on ads. You know, it's like, it's also about longitudinal life stuff, which is really good. I thought it was, it was terrific. And I don't know that I learned anything, but I learned a lot. It didn't change my worldview except to reinforce this thing I know is important. And sometimes a book is. That's enough.

[Sponsor Announcer]

Yeah, sometimes you need that reminder. I think the last time you read a book about sleep, I learned that I should sleep with socks on in the winter to help me fall asleep faster. So if you just want to keep screening these books for us.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, I don't have a, here's the five, I don't have a five takeaways kind of a situation. Except as I also think we think about this at work sometime. And I try to do this where if I'm not in a period where I'm extremely busy, be okay, you know, don't fill it with a bunch of email outreach or not make work necessarily. But it's okay to take a breather. And I go through cycles of working quite a bit and then I can have a 30 hour week where it's August or there's not a lot going on or people are out and it's okay to exhale, it's okay to take a creative bake. And I wish I had. I guess what I wish I had is a better way of quantifying or tracking if this stuff works for me in the way that it works for a lot of people. Like because, you know, they say, well, they score better on this test if they do this. Do I send better emails? I'm not joking. Like, are my ideas better? Am I more creative or empathetic or open? Or do I communicate better? I don't know. I wish I could score it. So I don't. Maybe that's something to plug myself into some weird algorithmic doodad that can track whatever.

[Sponsor Announcer]

Well, there's, I think it's a Steven Pinker book about your chronotype. I can't remember what it's called, but there is, I think that's him. And there's a quiz there that I think gets at some of the things you're talking about of like what times of day do you feel these different things or like it wouldn't be able to tell you. Definitely your emails are better at noon than they are at 3pm, but it can tell you based on this, it sounds like you should be sending your emails at noon and you should be doing these other things at three. And I think often that aligns with our own experience of just what feels better at different times of day. But I read it, I mean, way back when it came out, it's probably 10 years old, but it was interesting to think about, like what time should I be going to bed rather than what time do I just typically go to bed and how do I feel that I ship things.

[Jeff O'Neill]

The other one to talk about today for me is the Feather Detective by Chris Sweeney. This is nonfiction. An interesting Perry with the Feather Thief, which is actually not about the same thing. That was great a few years ago. So I like bloodless true crime. And this is the story of a woman named Roxy Leyburn who became the first forensic ornithologist in the mid century. She was one of the only, I think maybe the only woman working in the Smithsonian in the, in the 60s and 70s where she developed expertise in bird identification based on feathers and other parts of birds, primarily driven by the rise of air travel and the FAA and airlines trying to figure out what birds were hitting all these planes and why. Oh, and then also then she started testifying in cases about, you know, sometimes trying to identify a perpetrator of a crime based on like the down that got torn out of their jacket as they. Oh my God, rolled out the window or something like that. Incredible. These like large scale poaching cases where she identified different kinds of endangered species to figure out all this stuff. But really it's a portrait of this really fascinating woman from North Carolina who grew up in a really, you know, working to maybe lower than working class background. The beginnings of opportunity, more opportunities for women in higher education writ large within, in the sciences. But also just a real character, a real salt of the earth kind of like would make an unbelievable. I don't, I don't think there's a movie about her necessarily. There's not like one big case that you could build a story around. But I would love to see her show up in Knives out. Like a character based on her showing like Knives out or like this really super competent brass tax. No. And she drove like a bat out of hell. All of her mentors and proteges were afraid to drive in her Porsche or whatever. Complicated family life as well, which is fascinating. But then also you get a big History of the Smithsonian too, which is one of the weirder institutions. I don't know if people know this, but this guy, Joseph Smith, who never visited America, left. He made a bunch of money. He was a. We don't use this word anymore, but a bastard. An illegitimate son of like a British royalty, minor British gentry or something. And in his will, he'd never married or had kids or anything. In his will, he stipulated that if his nephew did not have any heirs, that his fortune should go to the establishment of a institution of higher learning in the capital of the U.S. okay, and it was enough money and it sort of got. It picked up speed over time. But then it's also her collecting all these birds and spending hours and hours in a microscope so she could look at a cross section of a barbule from a ring belt gull and be able to tell it's that and not a turkey vulture or not a different gull to the point where she was advising on the American Air Force base in Turkey that kept hitting storks, the jets kept hitting storks. And like, what the hell's going on? This store should. Stork, shouldn't be there. So she rolls out there and so, yeah, these are storks. And finds out that for whatever reason, these specific kind of snails had started coming into the Air Force base that the storks like to eat. And that's why the storks were there. So all the airmen for like a year had to hand pick 250,000 snails off the tarmac to keep the storks away from it. So it's like all of this really cool stuff and then, you know, the size of a common loon that hits this jetliner and kills a pilot. You know, there wasn't regulation for the proto, like the window strength and like, what's reasonable. And as the jets flew higher and faster, there's more force of hitting these birds. And things got hit and even discoveries because like this one pilot got killed by a mallard flying at 21,000ft. No one could thought ducks would fly that high. And they needed Roxy to come say, yeah, that's actually. That's the duck.

[Sponsor Announcer]

I don't know what to tell you, Roxy. Can we just write her into Chicago?

[Jeff O'Neill]

We're going right back. That's what we call bringing it back around. But it was. It was really good. It's not quite. There's not one. They. They focus on a couple trials, which is interesting, but neither of them are. There's not a story about one of those trials enough so it's following her through her life, which is great, but it's not going to be a huge hit on the order of like Bad Blood or even the Feather Thief where it's like super strange. It's just her and her work, which is great, but the story is biography.

[Sponsor Announcer]

And more of a character profile.

[Jeff O'Neill]

More of a character. But I Enjoyed it by Chris Sounds great. Available now. Terrific. Awesome. All right, let's wrap up their [e-mail] especially if you are on the calendaring committee for the Booker Prize. You've got some splaining to do, as Ricky Ricardo used to say, because I was born in the 19. That's even old.

[Sponsor Announcer]

That's an old I'm from the 1900s.

[Jeff O'Neill]

From the 1900s. Go to bookright.com listen to find the show notes there. Please check out the Patreon and join us over there if you are so inclined. Rebecca until next time, thank you.

[Sponsor Announcer]

Thanks so much for listening today. We hope you'll enjoy this audiobook Excerpt from Everything Is Probably Fine by Julia London Narrated by Marnie Penning thanks again.

[Narrator]

To Harper Muse for sponsoring they called her King Kong. Not to her face, of course. In polite company, they said Lorna Lot was a hard nut to crack. One tough cookie, all business, no play. Behind her back, they said something else. Lorna knew this because she had a habit of striding into conversations around the proverbial water cooler. It didn't take a genius to know that when the conversation came to a dead halt just as you entered, you were the subject. But since she had a bit of genius in her, Lorna knew to slow her steps before entering the break room to catch the whispers and comments. As best she could tell, the King Kong moniker had popped up after the unfortunate incident during the quarterly sales conference. She'd broken the heel of her shoe by getting it stuck in a grate on the way to work, a classic romantic comedy maneuver. Without the requisite hunk to save her, no one in the office had or would admit to having a shoe that fit her size 10 dogs. So Lorna hobbled through several presentations, and apparently her hobble gave off a gorilla vibe. Well, she couldn't help her feet. They matched her 5 foot 9 body. Her late Uncle Chet used to say she was built like a farmer. Some of my favorite people are farmers, he'd add cheerfully. She also tended to scowl, which probably didn't help. I'm not telling you to smile, her boss whispered at the same sales conference. But could you look less mean? Lorna tried. She really did try. Anyway, they called her King Kong in the break room and she tried to laugh it off and tell herself that it didn't matter what they called her as long as they met their sales quotas. But she wasn't unaffected by the name. She was not an automaton. She had feelings and very much wanted to be liked, even in her role as a sales team leader. She just didn't know how to get people to like her. She'd been leaning into the awkward side of things most of her life, and now that she was in her 40s, it was clear she didn't know how to be un awkward. And there was the whole low key rage thing, the vague feeling that she needed to clock someone for no good reason. She didn't like that feeling, and she'd been working on developing a different mindset. She was a frequent visitor to the library, checking out self help books. Edward, her favorite librarian, had nodded along sympathetically as she explained she needed to learn how to be more likable, and he directed her to guides that advised her to smile more, ask questions, and soften her approach with humor. Then when she told Edward she needed to learn how to harness a killer instinct to make more sales, he showed her all the books designed to help her reach a million dollars in sales or climb the corporate ladder. Those advice books tended to be a little more aggressive in their approach. Work hard, know your product, don't give up. Persist, persist. Slay. She was very good at persisting. Anyway. She was a goal setter when she had the idea to learn how to row after watching one Summer Olympics. She did it right here in Austin on Lady Bird Lake. Create needle art. The angel on her cubicle wall was her own creation. Sing. She'd absolutely nailed it as an alto in the community choir until Jed Ferris took over and turned it into a show choir singing pop tunes. Lorna did not believe that choirs were meant to sing pop tunes. The point being, Lorna looked tough, acted tough, and knew how to achieve goals. Sure, she could be a little hard on her sales team when they lagged behind the quotas she set, but it was her job as team leader to light a fire under their butts. That she seemed mad or pissed was just their way of deflecting. Once a therapist had suggested she work on being more in the moment and aware of how snappish she could be. Snappish? That hardly seemed fair. Wasn't everyone snappish at times? Wasn't everyone subconsciously mad about something? Sure they were. Politics, gas prices, Extreme temperatures, tornadoes, wildfires, ice storms, barking dogs, social media, long queues, not enough cashiers, zoom calls, traffic, poverty, high heels, skinny jeans, more ice than soda, more bun than burger, more noodles than shrimp. There were any number of things on any given day to set off even the saintliest person. Such was the nature of modern times. But she was working on it, and in the meantime she was trying very hard to be likable. So when no one even made eye contact when she came back from lunch, Lorna thought through what might have upset them. It probably had something to do with the sales team meeting she'd convened yesterday. Their cubicles were built around a discussion pit made of couches that were too low to the ground and sprinkled with colorful pillows that smelled like mildew. In the center was a a scarred table for drinks and pastries. The pit sort of looked like a giant flower. Lorna had gathered everyone together to discuss quotas because, as she liked to say, quotas were set to be achieved, not waved at as they flew by. She'd indicated she didn't think they were working smart. She'd read that in a self help book. Work smart. What else had she said? It wasn't that bad, was it? She was pretty sure she'd said worse in the past and they'd all survived. Why this should put their panties in a twist, she couldn't say.

[WhatsApp Announcer]

Except.

[Narrator]

Except maybe she'd been a smidge harsh. Lorna was hard on herself, and sometimes she found it difficult to discern where her internal self flagellation ended and her inappropriate comments during pep talks began. They tended to be the same in theme and tone. Okay, she'd bring donuts tomorrow. People would forgive a multitude of sins if there were donuts, and even more if strawberry sprinkles were involved.