The 2025 Holiday Recommendation Show, Part 1

Summary

Book Riot – The Podcast

Episode: The 2025 Holiday Recommendation Show, Part 1

Hosts: Jeff O’Neal & Rebecca Schinsky
Release Date: November 26, 2025

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Overview

In this annual holiday tradition, Jeff O’Neal and Rebecca Schinsky answer listener requests for gift book recommendations. Ranging from baby gifts to sci-fi blockbusters to deeply personal asks, the hosts dig into their personal reading histories and Book Riot’s wide-ranging backlist to help listeners find just the right book for everyone on their holiday list—including themselves. This episode features bookish banter, thoughtful reflection, offbeat humor, and the pair’s signature reading expertise, making it an invaluable resource for gift givers and book lovers alike.

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Key Discussion Points & Recommendations

1. Getting in the Holiday Spirit in Warm Climates

[01:07 – 03:38]

• Jeff jokes about trying to feel festive when it’s 72°F in Atlanta.
• Rebecca shares tricks: running the AC to create cold, lighting pine-scented candles, baking with cinnamon for holiday smells.
  • “The house needs to smell like cinnamon basically for the next five weeks.” – Rebecca [02:53]
• Both reflect on “faking winter” below the Mason Dixon line with cozy rituals.

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2. Introduction to the Holiday Recommendation Show

[03:44 – 04:46]

• Listeners send in specific, often challenging requests for book recommendations.
• This annual episode is a Book Riot tradition, distinct for its permission to dip into the entire backlist—not just new releases.
• Rebecca notes fewer “conversion” requests this year—i.e., “my friend likes X, make them like Y”—and is pleased people seem more accepting of divergent reading tastes.

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3. Recommendations Begin

a. Books to Gift a Friend’s Baby

[10:33 – 12:59]
Request from Beth: Gifts for a 6-month-old and future reads as the child grows
Jeff’s Picks:

• Little Blue Truck (Alice Schertle): “A modern classic... probably read more often than Dr. Seuss these days.” [11:17]
• Little Pea (Amy Rosenthal): “The pea will not eat her desserts, so they've got to feed her vegetables. Delightful.”
• I Love You, Stinky Face (Lisa McCourt): “The mother always says yes and it will make you tear up.”
  Bonus idea: Record yourself reading the books for a personal touch.

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b. Dad Who Loves Engaging Narratives & Big Stories

[12:59 – 18:53]
Request: Dad enjoyed Peter Heller and Tana French, loves upmarket but not hyper-literary, deep backlist ideal. Rebecca’s Picks:

• Wild Dark Shore (Charlotte McConaghey): Engaging, strong story, and McConaghey has a short but solid backlist.
• Real Americans (Rachel Khong): “Strong writing, engaging characters… Dad will like it.”
• A Marriage at Sea (Sophie Elmhurst): Real-life survival tale, “page turner… actually stayed married after 117 days stranded at sea.” [15:02] Jeff’s Picks:
• Jane Harper (series): “Wonderful upmarket crime novelist. Start with The Lost Man.”
• Attica Locke (series): Crime novels set in Texas/South, great for binge reading.
• Tilt (Emma Petit): “Riveting, natural disaster adventure, my recommendation of the year for crime/adventure lovers.” [17:33]

“The subtitle should just be ‘Hold onto your butts.’” – Rebecca on Tilt [18:27]

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c. Sci-Fi Fan Husband & Postpartum Mom Seeking Dark Academia

[19:09 – 22:30] Liz’s Request: Husband has read Hyperion, Malazan, Expanse; she’s after more “dark academia with some humor.” Jeff’s Picks:

• The Mountain in the Sea (Ray Naylor): “Octopus civilization… a recent and well-regarded sci-fi for nerds.” [20:10]
• Broken Earth Trilogy (N.K. Jemisin): “If somehow he hasn’t read it, must try.”
• Piranesi (Susanna Clarke): “Not dark academia, but weird university/fantasy—uncanny and enchanted.” Rebecca’s Picks:
• Special Topics in Calamity Physics (Marisha Pessl): “Storytelling gifts of Donna Tartt, suspense of Hitchcock. Really funny.”
• Katabasis: “Dark academia vibes, literary in-jokes, long and jam-packed.”

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d. Narrative Nonfiction for Buddy Reads

[22:30 – 28:07]
Courtney’s Request: Loved Say Nothing, dislikes Gladwell, wants something like Wright Brothers or Emperor of All Maladies
Jeff’s Pick:

• Wright Brothers (David McCullough): “Inventing, business, and American history in one.” Rebecca’s Pick:
• The Emperor of All Maladies (Siddhartha Mukherjee): “You don’t think you want to give someone a 500-page book about cancer, but I promise you do.” [25:40]
• A Marriage at Sea (see above): Excellent for nonfiction and book club.
• We the People (Jill Lepore): “A huge book on the Constitution, politics, history; probably a 50-hour audiobook.”
• Bad Blood (John Carreyrou): “Theranos fraud story, reads like a house on fire.” [26:35]
• It’s Only Drowning (David Litt): Memoir of a speechwriter learning to surf and family dynamics.

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e. Short & Weird Books for a Personal Gift

[28:13 – 33:52]
Emily’s Request: Loves “weird little books under 300 pages,” favorites include Wang, Millet, Offill, Otsuka, Kevin Wilson. Jeff’s Picks:

• The English Understand Wool (Helen DeWitt): “You’ll think about it, recommend it, they won’t read it—repeat.”
• Midnight Timetable (Bora Chung): “Severance meets short stories; haunting vignettes around abandoned research objects.” Rebecca’s Picks:
• Stonyard Devotional (Charlotte Wood): “Quiet, meditative, existential, diary of a woman in a convent-like setting.”
• Blah Blah (Maggie Sue): “Weirdest little book of 2025: girl finds a blob after drinking; hilarity and existential weirdness ensue.” Bonus: Jeff suggests Lauren Groff’s The Vaster Wilds and Matrix as “even weirder than Wang.”

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f. Early Reader Chapter Books with Diverse Themes

[33:52 – 36:29]
Margot’s Request: Six-year-old niece who loves unicorns and mermaids; wants books that introduce diversity and LGBTQ ideas. Jeff’s Pick:

• The Princess in Black (Shannon Hale): “Early chapter book with a princess crime fighter—overt but light on gender boundaries, fun, a great series.”

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g. Mysteries with Trans or Gender-Fluid Main Characters

[36:29 – 37:24]
Leigh Ann’s Request: Wants mysteries with gender-fluid/trans leads, preferably BIPOC. Rebecca’s Picks:

• Survivor’s Guilt (Robyn Gigl): Legal thriller with trans defense attorney at center.
• Jinkx Ballou series (Dharma Kelleher): Series led by a trans bounty hunter.

“These are hard to find—even with some digging, but these came highly reviewed!” [36:29]

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h. Literary Sci-Fi/Fantasy for a Gift Exchange

[37:26 – 41:20]
Jason’s Request: Brother-in-law exchange; emotional punch vs. thought-provoking; both liked Babel and Jemisin. Jeff’s Pick:

• How to Live Safely in a Science Fictional Universe (Charles Yu): “Inventive, father-son story, full of classic sci-fi references, but there’s real heart.” Rebecca’s Supports:
• Nick Harkaway (Angelmaker, The Gone-Away World): “Holds up; both thinking and feeling, clever references.”
• Audition (Katie Kitamura): “Quiet, thought-provoking, emotionally resonant”—also a mutual favorite this year.

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i. International Book Club Books, Not US-Centric

[43:34 – 47:47]
Anan’s Request: UK-based, international women’s book club; prefers short, fiction or nonfiction, not US-centric. Rebecca’s Picks:

• A Guardian and a Thief (Megha Majumdar): Near-future Kolkata; “climate refugees, subtle and devastating, great details.”
• Palaver (Bryan Washington): “Set in Tokyo, a black man and his estranged mother reconnect—lyrical, character-focused.” Jeff’s Picks:
• Everything I Never Told You (Celeste Ng): “Mixed-race Chinese family dealt a tragedy—transportable story.”
• The Bandit Queens (Parini Shroff): “Comic, sharp, about women who plot to rid themselves of troublesome husbands—fun, not as dark as the premise sounds.”

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j. Bleak, Realistic, or Funny Queer Christmas Reads

[47:58 – 53:09]
Mel’s Request: Wants “clear-eyed” Christmas/winter novels—queer, unsentimental, not Gift of the Magi. Jeff’s Pick:

• Mr. Ives’s Christmas (Oscar Hijuelos): “If you want a book that peels back the superficiality of the holiday, this is it… The protagonist’s son is killed on Christmas Day, leading to decades of reckoning.” [49:19] Rebecca’s Pick:
• The Corrections (Jonathan Franzen): “Exactly what you’re looking for—he’s writing about how the perfect family Christmas is a lie. The family gets together at Christmas and things do not go well. Sharp, cathartic, and unexpected.”

“Also, if you have not seen ‘The Fishes’ episode of The Bear, I think you’ll find it very cathartic.” – Rebecca [53:09]

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• “I think my quest over the last several years to be like don’t try to change people’s reading habits is maybe successful.” — Rebecca [05:06]
• “You don’t think you want to give someone a 500 page book about cancer, but I really, really promise that you do.” — Rebecca on The Emperor of All Maladies [25:40]
• “If you haven’t done the last two Lauren Groffs [Vaster Wilds and Matrix], I think that’s what you’re really looking for… 100% Matrix is a weirder book than Rental House.” — Jeff [33:28]
• “You will sound like you have had a stroke when you try to describe this book to friends.” — Rebecca on Blah Blah [32:12]
• “Jonathan Franzen is writing about how this is a lie. Like this lie you’ve described…” — Rebecca on The Corrections [51:52]

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Useful Timestamps for Key Requests

• [10:33] – Baby/young child gift book picks
• [12:59] – For dads who love upmarket story-driven novels
• [19:09] – Sci-fi husband & dark academia for new moms
• [22:30] – Narrative nonfiction for couples/book club
• [28:13] – Short, weird literary fiction
• [33:52] – Chapter books for young, diverse readers
• [36:29] – Mysteries with trans/gender-fluid protagonists
• [37:26] – Literary sci-fi/fantasy for brother-in-law gift exchange
• [43:34] – Book club picks, not US-centric
• [47:58] – Clear-eyed/bleak/funny Christmas books for queer listener

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Tone & Style

The episode is candid, warm, and full of readerly camaraderie. Jeff and Rebecca alternate between deep empathy for their listeners’ situations and sharp-witted banter. Intellectual yet accessible, their recommendations feel both carefully considered and infused with an irreverent, homey joy—making this episode particularly worthwhile for anyone looking to gift (or find!) their next favorite read.

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For shownotes and links to all recommended books, visit bookriot.com or email [e-mail].

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Happy holidays—and happy gifting!

Transcript

[Rebecca Schinsky]

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[Rebecca Schinsky]

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[Jeff O'Neill]

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[Rebecca Schinsky]

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[Jeff O'Neill]

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[Jeff O'Neill]

This is the Book Riot Podcast. I'm Jeff o'. Neill.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

And I'm Rebecca Schinsky.

[Jeff O'Neill]

It's time, Rebecca, for our. This is our only hallowed tradition, isn't it? I mean, we do preview drafts and it books, but this goes back to the beginning and speaks to the core of what we do.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

We do moms, dads, and grads in the spring. But these holiday recommendations, I think you're right. This is the thing that we have been doing since the very beginning of the Book Riot Podcast. It's. And it's fun. I look forward to this every year.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I do, too. I've got a question for you. How. How does one get into the holiday spirit south of the Mason Dixon Line? Because I find myself traveling Atlanta. It's 72 degrees outside. I'm like, sure. I don't know what sort of.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

It's a good question.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Just what, what happens here? How do you do this?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I am watching the weather report like a hawk the week before Thanksgiving. Because we have Thanksgivings, it's not uncommon for it to be like 70 degrees and all the windows are open. And that is not what my Midwestern heart is seeking. So I am delighted to tell you that the high is going to be 47 here on Thursday and I think like 46 on Friday, where we will be bundling up to go cut down a Christmas tree, which is the way that I want to acquire a Christmas tree. But I have also learned in the past that if it happens to be 75 degrees on the day after Thanksgiving. You do not force yourself to go cut down a tree and think that it's going, going to work because you're sweating and you're cranky and it's, it's just not right. So I feel like the stars have aligned this year and we're gonna have cold weather. But otherwise, I mean one of the things that we do is occasionally if it's really hot on Thanksgiving, I will run the air conditioner to make the house cold. Like make it cold. Light some candles. I really. You gotta rely on like the pine scented candles.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Olfactory, that's one you can do. There you go. Yeah.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

The visual cues of putting up a tree or like whatever holiday it is that you're sell putting up your accoutrement. And I like to bake a lot. The house needs to smell like cinnamon basically for the next five weeks. But there's kind of no getting over it if it's hot and you're just like Mariah Carey's playing and she has thawed all the way out. Like I don't know what to tell you.

[Jeff O'Neill]

We went to the quite lovely holiday lights at the Atlantic Atlanta Botanical Gardens last night which was, was quite fantastic even though it was 77 as a high. So we get there, it's like 6:30, it's dark, but it's like 64 degrees there. People bundle up, they're wearing all their Patagonia. It's like, okay, this is sort of a fake it till you make it. But for the winter season anyway, having.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

A lovely time over here. The puffer jackets come out if anytime it's below 60 and I kind of don't know what to do with it.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, that's okay. Anyway, so if this is your first time joining us, we've had folks write in with their holiday recommendation requests and we have done our best to answer them from our own recall. But then sometimes we get help and then sometimes the other one we know the other one is like this is your thing. Like I think the first one is me and the last one is just you. I will do about half now and then half in the next. The rest of the episodes we do go back to the. Well from time to time we'll try to limit ourselves. I did not see a Marilynne Robinson hit on here. So I'm sure we'll find a time to remember that's appropriate. But we do have some standards that we, that we go and recommend and since it's not really a new release Forward one we feel, you know, licensed to go into the backlist. In fact we could probably do it even more than we do. I was thinking about this. I tried to once I was kind of 45 minutes into my recommendation research like let me go back a little bit. So I started pulling some stuff out from the back a little bit. Other did you see any trends, Rebecca? Anything that you struck you as getting multiple requests for?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

There's a lot of Jeff core stuff in this round of I was thinking.

[Jeff O'Neill]

So I was hoping I wasn't just being completely solid. No, no.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

There's a lot of like history Sc my partner really loves like outdoorsy thrillers, that kind of thing. Lighter on the sometimes we get like self help advice, that kind of thing. Someone how do I give somebody a book that will like help them through a hard time or provide them with some support? This is maybe the first recommendation show where I'm not gonna talk to someone about Tiny Beautiful Things by Cheryl Strayed actually pretty pretty Jeff Heavy Fewer like buddy reads. There are some of those but we get often a lot of like I'm reading I need a book to read with friends or we're all going to gather around on Christmas Eve. And here's the needle I'm trying to thread for myself and three other people. Fewer of those. And I'm delighted that this year there is nary a request for a My friend or loved one likes to read X and I wish they read Y. How do I get them to read Y? I feel like my quest over the last several years to be like don't try to change people's reading habits is maybe successful.

[Jeff O'Neill]

And with that I guess programming notes go check out zero to well read. By the time this comes out our last title specific episode of the year will be out. That's Midnight's Children by Salman Rushdie which is its own reading experience. Very worthwhile but is not There's a lot to discuss Rebecca, as we found and more we could have done in the hour and a half we spent working on that. We're also going to have A Christmas Carol coming up in a week or two. Yeah maybe more like two weeks from now. And then a couple of non title things that if you haven't gone over to the zero to well read feed because like ah you know what? I don't really listen to them talk about a whole book for an hour and a half that I read or haven't read. We're going to do a couple of non title end of year beginning of The New Year. Things you might find interesting maybe principally among them is 10. Well we tried to come up with 10 books from 2025 that we think could be canon edition someday. The kind of book we might covered in zero to well read whether we got to 10 is. You know that's what we call leave them hanging. That's what we call a knowledge gap.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

You have to listen and find out.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Go listen, find out. But thanks for everyone for joining us over there. Do anything on the Patreon before the end of the year? I haven't looked at the schedule we're going to do.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

We are going to actually do the books that we missed this year right nearer to the end of December. We'll do the ones we actually didn't get to and we'll do the best of the rest which is all of the non book stuff that we have loved over the course of the year and that always is really wide ranging.

[Sponsor Announcer]

We've.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

We have food, hobbies, travel stuff. You did underwear one year. Like anything can happen on the Best of the Rest. Not underwear as a concept. Specific underwear.

[Jeff O'Neill]

What if I just invented the idea of underwear? It's like, you know what guys, have you tried wearing something under your jeans? Everyone's like, what are you talking about?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Letter of recommendation. Underwear.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Get. Get the intermediary. And with that we'll take our first sponsor break and get in the recommendations.

[Sponsor Announcer]

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[Jeff O'Neill]

This episode is brought to you by.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

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[Jeff O'Neill]

Right Rebecca, I guess probably you should read the first one since I'm going to try to tackle this one.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah. This question comes to us from Beth whose best friend has a six month old baby. Beth and the friend grew up reading together and they still read books that the other is enjoying all the time. Beth says. I've already bought the baby a few books that I liked as a kid but was hoping to get some suggestions as well. Book recs that Beth can buy and set aside for when this baby is a little bit older. And I cede the floor to the gentleman presently in Atlanta.

[Jeff O'Neill]

So I will say that these are three recommendations that went into an extremely similar gift package of books that we sent to my my my brother and sister in law on the occasion of their kid being born and he's to the age now where they're actually reading some of these. So and I can tell you which one were the hits. We actually did this this is also a fun thing. You could I don't know if we got affirmative consent here but you'll know who we are is we did audio recordings of us reading the books so that they could have those to spend some time with Little Blue Truck, the original is a modern classic. I think it's going to become, over time, the equivalent of one of the Dr. Seuss books. I think probably. It's probably read more often actually to kids these days. Very charming. Or hornwind. Beep, engine purred. Prettiest sound you ever heard is in my brain from now until my cerebral cortex starts to. Starts to soften and leak out of my ears. Another one I like is called Little P by Amy Rosenthal. And it is the conceit there is the pea will not eat her desserts, so they've got to feed her vegetables, right? All right, you got, you got. We need you to eat this dessert. You gotta eat this dessert before you have your vegetables. And then I love you, Stinky face by Lisa McCourt, in which the younger thing asked the mother, would you love me if I were these increasingly disgusting things? And of course, the mother always says yes and will make you tear up. And it's quite beautiful and fun to read over and over. So that's Little Blue Truck, which you can find anywhere. Little P by Amy Rosenthal. And then I love you, Stinky face by Lisa McCourt. Little blue truck. Also there's like a little brew truck extended universe. Now there's like Halloween and Christmas and whatever. You might enjoy those, but start with the original, original recipe, Little Blue Truck to start, and you can build out from there.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I love the idea you buried in there of doing readings, like recordings of yourselves reading those as part of the gift. That's really creative and sweet.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I mean, now that most of us have like, basically a movie and sound student in our pocket, like, Throw on your EarPods, you can record yourself the video or just the audio, and they can have it there. So I think as much as an archival research position is always also you could have loved ones do it. You've got grandparents. Send them a book, they can read it. Kind of a good time. Nary a dry eye in the house for that. Okay, I will do the next read. I totally knocked it out of the park last year for my dad. I recommended Peter Heller, Ba Bang, and Town of French Ba Boom, and he's blown through their entire backlist. Any ideas to help me keep the magic going? He likes engaging characters, a strong sense of story, and a good up and good upmarket writing. Not too literary, though. Bonus points for a deep backlist. Past favorites include Lonesome Dove. I'm unfamiliar with the work there. Ken Follett and Northwoods by Daniel Mason. Thank you for doing this every year. And thank you for an amazing show. Point of order, Rebecca. If your dad likes Northwoods, he can handle literary writing. I'm just putting that out there a hundred percent. Yeah.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah. I just watched Train Dreams last night.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Oh, how was it?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

It's so good. And I didn't text you because usually when I'm watching movies late at night, you're three hours behind me on Pacific time and I'm like, it's dinner time. I can text Jeff. That's fine. It was 10:30 here and you were in this time zone.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I've been in bed for two hours. Yeah, right.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

It's wonderful. I think Joel Edgerton is perfectly cast. I have not read Denis Johnson's novella, but I'm gonna be doing that with a quickness. I thought the film was. It's really wonderful. It's on Netflix now. But like something about the vibe of it reminded me of Northwoods. Yeah, I can see that there's not a small amount of time spent just sort of dwelling in beautiful scenery. Looking at this cabin in Idaho. Maybe pick up your dad some Train.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Dreams novella by Dennis Johnson. Very short, quite beautiful. Yeah, that's a great.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Occurred to me I was going to start this one actually with Wild Dark Shore from this year Rings all the Bells. Engaging characters, strong sense of story, and good upmarket writing by Charlotte McConaughey. But she has two previous books as well. So like not the deepest backlist, but they've all been well reviewed. People have liked them. Dad could do that. Rachel Kong also is coming into this pantheon for me of engaging characters, strong story, good strong writing. I see you nodding your head. You can start with any of them, but I think Real Americans is really terr. This last one is a standalone, but I just think your dad is going to like A Marriage at Sea by Sophie Elmhurst. Nonfiction, but the true story is engaging characters and a strong story and good upmarket writing by a terrific journalist about a really unbelievable but very true thing where this couple got stranded at sea in a tiny lifeboat for 117 days and not only did not kill each other, but actually stayed married by when they got home. Just a huge page turner. One of my favorite books of the year so far.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I think at Marriage at Sea this could be the idea for a show of in itself. But the most recommendable books of the year is another way of spinning. Do we do that already?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

We are doing the best gift books of the year in a way.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Okay. Very similar idea.

[Sponsor Announcer]

Yeah.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah. But I think this one is extraordinarily useful all the way around. It's a relationship book, it's a C book, it's a memoir, it's historical and it's quite beautiful. Great on audio and short, so really checks a lot of my boxes these days. Speaking of backlist, this is more of on the Tana French tip. But Jane Harper, I always have a reason. And I will say refer to Jane Hopper again as we go. A really wonderful upmarket crime writer. The Lost Man, I think is my favorite of those. But they're all quite good and you can blow through them. Also on the American side, Attica Locke has a wonderful series of crime novels set in Texas and the American South Southwest, and you can get through all those as well. You know, one book from 2025 that I guess I didn't. It didn't quite lock into me that I want to mark this as I think about the rest of a lot of all the recommendations here. I think Tilt by Emma Petit might be good for a lot of people here that Peter Heller.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yes.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Like you're going on a trip. And of course, this book you may have heard us talk about is set in the immediate aftermath of a major earthquake in Portland, Oregon. Again, it's speculative. Petit did a lot of research, she's a journalist about, you know, what would happen to specific buildings. It was a little uncanny insofar as the main character walks past my house very literally on the street where I live, to quote My Fair Lady. And that's a little unsettling. But I think as I've heard other people read it, you don't have to live in my house literally to find it compelling. Interesting. I know you appreciated what I was. Riveted. Extremely riveting. So I think there's a lot of crime, adventure kinds of people that like to get taken on a journey. Right. Like the patrony, the momentum of what's going on is compelling. I think Tilt is probably my recommendation of the year. Along those lines.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

That's such a good note. Like, I think that I. It fell through the cracks for me when I was thinking about Peter Heller because we. I was. You're thinking about like big nature, outdoors things, but this is natural disaster and it's an adventure story and the stakes are extremely high and it is, it is terribly compelling. That was a one sitting read for me where I was just like, I'm so nervous the whole time. Like the subtitle should just be hold onto your butts.

[Sponsor Announcer]

Yeah.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah. I think a lot of you that wrote in with questions that have some that connect to that somewhere, they love X, but they'll also read Y. If they'll also read wide, probably they're going to read something like Tilt. So that can go on our gold star, really good note. Swiss army recommendation there. Okay, I think you're ready.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Next question is from Liz, who's looking for something for her husband who loves sci fi but has read so much of it. Husband's favorite books include Hyperion, the Malazan series, the Expanse series, and he's also got some fantasy picks. Liz is also looking for a book for herself. Good job. Liz is one year postpartum and loved Gideon the ninth ninth House and alchemized the Secret History. Looking for more dark academia with some humor.

[Jeff O'Neill]

You know, in reading the Secret History, I don't know if you tried that episode of Zero to well read. Maybe that's my recommendation for you if you're looking for is to listen to us talk about it. But many have tried. Many have tried and I think Rebecca, you have I won't spoil it. I think you have the what is it they use on British Baking show if they can't use egg whites? Aquafaba. Right? You have the Aquafaba of the Secret History. It's a substitute, you know, it's not bad. It's good in a pinch. It's not the same as the the real McCoy. So I don't know. I'm we're looking for these. Can I say that? Shoot us an email [e-mail] so I look there but for the fella. The Mountain in the Sea by Ray Naylor came out two years ago. Octopuses Civilization. It was the hit for the sci fi nerds a couple years ago. I'm not good enough at sci fi to know if the things that came after the colon and favorite books include would be the kind of things where he knows already about the mountain and the sea. Or does he know already about the Broken earth Trilogy by N.K. jemisin? You'll have to let me know. But if he doesn't, those would be my two places to go on the the Ninth House. If you haven't read Piranesi by Susanna Clark. It's not really dark academia, but it's like fantasy academia. I would say it's like taking the the university or college setting and then getting weird, getting strange, getting supernatural. It's not doing the secret history thing, nor is it doing the ninth House thing, but it is I think it's embarking from a similar idea which these libraries and spaces about learning and knowledge and history can feel Uncanny and enchanted. And what if we took it that you open that door and there's a different kind of room there with that same premise. But that one I'd recommend too.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

All right. It's been a long time since I read this one, but I'm gonna go with first, Special Topics in Calamity Physics by Marisha Pessl. Which one? I remember the feeling of it. And when I pulled it up to look at the description, the blurb calls it a story that combines the storytelling gifts of Donna Tartt and the suspense of Al Hitchcock. Darkly hilarious coming of age tale and a richly plotted suspense. It's really funny and fun. I enjoyed that a lot. And if somehow Katabasis escaped you this year and you are like, it has dark academia vibes, it also is really funny, especially in the ways that it skewers academia. So I think Katabasis is worth a pickup there. It also has the same thing that Secret History had going for it, where it's just long. Like, there is a lot of Katabasis to read and a whole lot of literary references and historical references and things she's pulling from philosophy. And so if you liked how jam packed the Secret History is with, like, everything Donna Tartt had ever put into her brain, I think you'll like that part of Katapasis as well.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Let's see. I guess that takes us to my read next. My husband and I do buddy reads a few times a year, but we have very different reading preferences. We both enjoyed say Nothing for nonfiction, and I was hoping to find another narrative nonfiction that might work for us. We previously tried Malcolm Gladwell, which I didn't enjoy, but my husband loved, and the Devil in the White City, which neither of us enjoyed. That's a little interesting. I'm not saying you're wrong. I was. I would be surprised. That might be something we would have gone towards. I love books about politics and American history, and he likes Michael Lewis type books and business stories like Shoe Dog. I'm hoping for some recent release. I just realized that the best pick is Rebecca. Just in the middle of that sentence. Oh, no. Okay. To avoid books we've already read. I'm also hoping you can recommend some recent politics American history releases like John Meacham, Bob Woodward, so I can play the show and my husband can pick up gift ideas for me. Love your show, especially the holiday request show, and very much appreciate. Thank you. Thank you. Okay, Courtney, go ahead. Rebecca.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Well, you said you just realized what the best pick is, so you.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Well, you know what? It Was is the shoe dog The Business Story 1. And the American History Wright Brothers by David McCullough is, you know, inventing and it's American history at the same time. And it's really wonderful stuff. It's not very long, it's really good on audio, but the right, you know, the Orville and Wilbur Wright, like hanging out on Kitty Hawk, like camping and getting eaten by mosquitoes and like inventing heavier than air flight is really amazing stuff. It's really good. So I think that could be because it has the business angle. Like, you know, they were, they were bicycle makers and there's a real practical element too. But then if it's. Of course, it's McCullough and history and there's a great story that goes along with it. So I think that'd be my number one pick, now that I look at it that way.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Way, yeah.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Oh, you had an idea too. All right, while you type, I'll do mine.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Ring the bell for our one of our? Rst Elenes, the emperor of all maladies.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, we didn't have a place for it.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

By Siddhartha Mukherjee. Invention but of cures for things. Yes, it's a big biography of cancer. It is so compelling. Mukherjee is such a wonderful writer, writes with great affection for science and medicine and equally great affection for the people who have experienced and died of cancer, who have contributed to how we understand it. And so you get our evolving understanding of cancer alongside the roles that cancer has played in the culture and what it means to us and how different civilizations over time have thought of it and related to it. Just an incredibly smart, thoughtful, literary, surprisingly funny guy who is kind of like occasionally telling jokes in the text, referring to all kinds of other wonderful things that he's read. There's a lot about how did we come upon the treatments and the cures that we have for various things. And so that invention business kind of feeling is present, but also just really wonderful writing. I say it every year. You don't think you want to give someone a 500 page book about cancer, but I really, really promise that you do.

[Jeff O'Neill]

And there's a new edition with additional stuff out now, so you can go pick that up.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, it's just great. I think we A Marriage at Sea is also a good recommendation for the two of you. We're gonna just, as you said, refer to that one a whole bunch. And if you haven't seen we the People by Jill Lepore, it's a huge book this year about the Constitution, how it was created, how we Might be breaking it there. If you and your husband want to talk politics and history there, there's a lot to chew on with that. The audiobook is probably like 50 hours long. It's enormous.

[Jeff O'Neill]

One of the great narrative nonfiction viruses that tore through the book riot staff was Bad Blood by John Kerryou which is the story of Theranos, the Elizabeth Holmes fraudulent startup. And so maybe you already know the story, but I think it may be enough time has passed Rebecca that people have forgotten or didn't realize. Like she's now more of a cultural figure. But the actual. The actual fraud and charlatanism on display.

[Sponsor Announcer]

It's wild.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Still is wild and is a wonderful story in and Kerrio researches it and writes it with winning competitive economy. He sort of lets the story tell itself, gets out of the way but does a lot of work and it just reads like a house on fire. I was trying to think something that connected. I looked at Shoe dog and was like running shoes, whatever. And then the politics part and I came up with It's Only Drowning by David Litt, which I listened to this year, maybe heard me talk about on the show. David Litt was a speechwriter for Barack Obama in sort of an apparatchik within the Democratic party in the year since and over the course of COVID decided to take up surfing because his brother in law is a political enigma to him. And it's a story of him trying to get to know his brother, him trying to learn how to surf, but also looking to like be grounded and connected to something. It's really interesting. I love any kind of memoir about someone learning how to do something as an older person or as a complete neophyte, you know, like cork dork or any of those kinds of book. And this one happens to be outbound surfing but has this other layer of very light cultural inquiry. I will not call it commentary. I will warn you that no grand sweeping revelations are made. It is left to be. It's honest and true and it only can be the case because there's a real humans involved. But I thought it was really interesting and fun in its own way. So that's it's only Drowning by David Litt to go with Bad Blood by John Carry you.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I remember you talking about that one in front list foyer when you read it. And it sounds like a great pick.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

All right.

[Jeff O'Neill]

It's quite good.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Next question is from Emily looking for recommendations for herself. Emily's gonna come sit by us for a minute.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah. Weird little book people.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yes, a weird little book short, definitely under 300 pages and a dash of strange. Some that she's gotten to this year are Maggie Audition and Tilt. Ring three bells for all of us. Ye. Yeah. And some of Emily's favorite authors are Wakey Wang, Lydia Millet, Ginny Offal, Julie Otsuka, and Kevin Lumberjack Wilson. So Jeff is just pumping his fists right now. Any that I missed from this year or favorite backlist in this niche genre, thank you very much, Emily.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I get two immediately sprung to mind and I stopped there. I've talked about the English Understand Wool by Helen DeWitt several times. You can read this in one half of a football game if you're sitting around on Thanksgiving. I guess this is going to come out a little bit. Well, you may have a day if you get to this year, you know, a short commuter flight, you know, the Boston to D.C. shuttle. You will finish it. And like, dang, Jeff, you were right. That's a weird little book. And you'll think about it and you'll recommend it to other people who will not read it. And then the midnight excuse me, Midnight Timetable by Bora Chung, which I talked about recently on the show as well. This is the comps aren't exact, but it's the easiest shorthand, a severance. But of short stories, there's this abandoned research facility and there's this unnamed narrator sort of going through it in each vignette story, chapter whatever is focused on an object that's been left behind and gives you, you know, tells a bit of the story through that refracted slice represented by that object. It's 206 pages. So you could read these both in A Long Winter night and then, you know, be hungry for more. That's the problem with liking short little weird books. It's like saying your favorite fruit is Pringles because you're going to eat 700 of them and not be full and you need more. How about you, Rebecca? What do you have?

[Sponsor Announcer]

Let's see.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

For closer to the I'm doing a spectrum, so closer to the Jenny Awful. Just like sort of of quiet, meditative life is weird End of Things Stonyard Devotional by Charlotte Wood, which came out earlier this year. Certainly not under the radar by any measure of it, but I think she belongs alongside a lot of these names that you've listed, Emily. And it's, you know, this woman has, for reasons we never find out, left her successful life and moved into a convent of sorts in the outback of Australia, where a thing is happening and a person is coming to visit. But also there's a mouse infestation that they just have to deal with the daily ins and outs of and like all sorts of other stuff. And she's basically writing the book as her diary entries of living there. And it is like there's this quiet, almost repetitious rhythm to it that gives you what it might feel like to live in a place like that that does have a rhythm to the days and to hear her sort of. Of reflect on her life. But we don't get the full benefit of it because we don't know why she has left behind what she left behind and. And what that old life was. I just. I continue to think about this. I read it early in the year. I saw Charlotte Wood has a new book coming out next year. And I'm very excited about that. I'm trying not to know anything about it, but I just think she belongs on the list. And if you want to go full weird, you got to go to Blah Blah by Maggie sue, in which a young woman who's been out for a night drinking leaves the bar and finds a sentient blob on the ground by the dumpster outside the bar.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I've had days.

[Sponsor Announcer]

I know.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

And. And she picks it up and takes it home. And then it starts taking on shape and maybe becomes a facsimile of a pretty hot guy.

[Jeff O'Neill]

And.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

And. And maybe then it watches TV and develops some ideas of its own about being in captivity and wanting to be a free blob. It's. You will sound like you have had a stroke when you try to describe this book to friends. And it was. It's a very memorable reading experience. But nothing encapsulates Weird Little Book for me from 2025 better than that.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I love Stone Yard Devotional. It didn't spring to mind to me as a weird little book because it feels quite familiar if you read literary fiction. But I don't think you're wrong. I'm trying to figure out. I guess it's because you just don't get the backstory. I think what's unusual about it is there's not a bunch of. My mom died of cancer or I was canceled from my university job. It was more existential than specific. You kind of didn't need to know. We can just too easily imagine. Yeah, I can see why. So join the convent. Even though I don't believe in anything.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

And it's that existential quality that rings the bells of Wakey Wang and Jenny. Awful for me that they're both Writing, like, their stories are all, like, fully grounded in the real world. There's not magic or anything surreal or speculative that happens there, but life itself is weird, and I think they just get at that. And Charlotte Wood gets at that very well too.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Also, Emily, if you haven't done the last two, Lauren Groffs. I think that's what you're really looking for. Vaster Wilds and Matrix. Matrix. Because Matrix, I think those are both weirder than Wakey Wang books. I mean, I think Wakey Wang is interesting, but, like, 100% matrix is a weirder book than Rental House.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, Matrix is a weird book in a wonderful way. That's a great idea.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Are we about ready for a new Jenny Offel book? I don't like to put writers on the clock, but also, I'm Pringles, baby. I just talked about this.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

It's been too long. I'm always ready for a new Jenny Offal book. I'll read this next one because you're going to answer it. This is from Margot. Margot's niece is turning 6, and Margot's looking for good books to give. The niece loves unicorns and Mermaid. She likes reading, so a challenge is not a bad thing. We love to hear that her parents in school are more conservative but open to diverse and new ideas. So anything that introduces the world outside of rural North Carolina into LGBTQ ideas would be great.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I've recommended this before, and I've gotten farther away from. As my kids have gotten older, the sharpness of my vision for what kids read at what age has begun to blur. I used to be able to, like, carbon date kids within, like, six months, and I'm like, I have no idea how old anyone is.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Amazing.

[Jeff O'Neill]

The Princess in Black by Shannon Hale. So this is. I think my nomenclature here is fuzzy. I think it's like an early chapter book. There are chapters, but there's also quite large illustrations. The central idea here is there is a princess who has an alter ego who is the princess in black that fights crime at night. Right. Or. Or as you know, if a dragon's invading the kingdom, the princess in black appears to. To fight. So as you might imagine, it's very overt, but also light on the gender. Not fluidity necessary, but like boys and girls and everyone can be anything, right? Which is, I think if there's any one idea you want to get to a kid early, it's like there's. There's no circumscription to what you can be or think or feel. That's as simple as it should be. And this is a very black and pink rather than black and white dichotomy inversion. And they're all fun and there's a whole series of them. So that's my. That's the easiest one for me to pick out here. I think it's illustrated by someone else and I apologize to that illustrator. I just realized. I think it's one where the illustrator gets a credit. But if you Google the Prince Is Black by Shannon Hale, you will see all the salient details there. I'm up next. My daughter is gender fluid and their girlfriend is a trans woman. One of the ways I try to be an ally is to read as widely and diversely as I can. I'm currently looking for mystery books that have a gender fluid or trans main character. Extra points for biopic characters or author biopic. I think this might have meant bipoc maybe and they got translated. Is that what that looks right to you? Maybe, yeah. Characters or authors love everything you're all doing. I think. Rebecca, you did the research for us on this because I didn't have anything that jumped on.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I did, and I understand why you're writing in with this because this is. These are hard to find. Even in doing some digging, I found a lot of, you know, like lists of queer books or lists of queer mysteries. But it's uncommon to find them described as specifically as like gender fluid characters or trans main characters. So it did take a little digging, but I have done the scrolling for you, Leigh Ann. Couple of options. Survivor's Guilt by Robin I think it's Giggle G I G L is a legal thriller that's anchored by a trans defense attorney. I believe it's part of a series, so if you like that one, you'll have some others to try out as well. And then there is the Jinkx Ballou series by Dharma Kelleher, which is about a trans bounty hunter. Both of those sounded terrific, and Page Turney came with pretty good reviews, so I think those are good places to start. Maybe once you get those into your algorithms, you'll start to get some other similar recommendations generated.

[Jeff O'Neill]

All right, why don't you read the next?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

This one's coming from Jason. Every year my brother in law and I exchange books that we both read, and I could use a little help. I lean toward emotional punch and he prefers thought provoking. I feel like our preferred Colson Whitehead books get to this distinction. The Nickel Boys is my favorite and he prefers the Underground Railroad. You are speaking our language, Jason. Brother in law Likes science fiction and fantasy a bit more than I do, is a big fan of Ursula Kayla Gwynn and Isaac Asimov. I'd love to find something that exists in the literary sci fi or fantasy sort of space. Babel by R.F. kuang was a mutual hit, as was N.K. jemisin's Broken Earth series.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I think I got the right one here.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I think you do too.

[Jeff O'Neill]

And I always use this and every time I think of it in these recommendations. Oh, I think it's the right one because it's kind of like that IKEA hex key, like every other key doesn't really fit, but once you get it, boy, it's so yeah, that's the right hex key. And now I can mangle assembling this bookcase properly. It is Charles Yu's how to Live Safely in a Science Fictional Universe. It's a father and father son relationship which might be interesting for brotherly things to talk about and have some mutual, I don't know, bonding over. But the central character is called Charles Yu. This is a Charles Yu thing to do. And he is a technician. I don't think he invents the time machine, but I think he services them. And he lives in a time machine with his non existent dog. And there's a depressed sort of Martin like computer like from Hitchhiker and he visits Linus Skywalker who tried to kill his father. So anyway, you get what's going on here, right? Charles Yu knows all the references you and I know. But in a Percival Everett like unfolding series of sleight in hand that actually do add up to something, all the gimmicks and flourishes compound and you start peeling away the cores. And there is something at the core of it. A really singular read. Interior Chinatown is also really good by Charles Yu. If you like this one. I always look forward to what Charles Yu is doing and we'll look forward to the next one also as a gifting object. It has all of these like, I assume this is what the paperback like is too. I hope the powers that be didn't change from the hardcover that I have. But it's just a bunch of different like ray guns from science fiction just like lined up in a row. It's terrific. But that's how to Live Safely in a Science Fictional Universe by Charles Yu.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

That's a great recommendation. As you were talking, I was wondering if maybe these guys should also try some Nick Harkaway. Bob is undergoing a Nick Harkaway renaissance in our house. Yeah, angel maker, maybe angel maker in the gone away world. Those have both both gotten the it holds up review from the Sci fi reader here on Team Shinsky and there's both like heart and science stuff, both thinking and feeling in them and he's really funny. And also you're gonna get some of those sci fi references and allusions like you were listing for the Charles Yu. I think that might be it. Maybe some of the Kevin Wilson Perfect Little World is I think think one.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Of the weirder ones or Family Fang. I mean I don't know.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, Family Fang might be good Audition by Katie Kitamura I reached for first because it's our mutual favorite of the year but also rings that bell for me of thought provoking and quiet. It feels kind of close to the nickel boys spiritually. I don't know how to explain that except that it does. Maybe the Secret history too while we're talking about it. Like having recently read that and thought why do I read anything that's not like this book ever? Just there's plenty to talk about.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, that's true. Let's take a quick break and we'll do a few more before we wrap up this first installment. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Listening to this podcast Smart move Being financially savvy Smart move. Another smart move having State Farm help you create a competitive price when you choose to bundle home and auto bundling. Just another way to save with a personal price plan. Like a good neighbor. State Farm is there. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability, amount of discounts and savings and eligibility vary by state. We find Vecna. We end this once and for all together on November 26th. We have a plan. It's a bit insane. Everyone in he knows where we are.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Watch out. Get ready for one last adventure.

[Jeff O'Neill]

We stay true to ourselves, stay true to our friends.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

No matter the cost.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Found you Stranger Things. The final season begins November 26th only on Netflix. Extra value meals are back. That means 10 tender juicy McNuggets and medium fries and a drink are just doll only at McDonald's for a limited time only. Prices and participation may vary. Prices may be higher in Hawaii, Alaska and California. And for delivery. All right. Up next from Anan who's a she Book Club recommendations for an international group of women based in the uk. We enjoy both fiction and nonfiction, steering away from anything overtly US centric. You don't have to tell me, Anan. I tell you what. Preference for short books, preference for audio availability. That last one, I was like, I don't even think about that anymore more. Do you? I just assume most of the big True, 99% of the things are out. We were just at the Carter Library this morning, and a few of his books that Michelle wanted weren't available on audio. Just an interesting note there. Also, if you go to the Carter Library on a Monday, you have the place to yourself. You can go just spend as much time around Thanksgiving. Yeah, we pretty much have the run of any museum we want right now. But anyway, good hack. That's, that's a. That's a tangent that we don't need to go anywhere. All right, Rebecca, what'd you come up with?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I'm going to go with two of my relatively recent 2025 reads. A Guardian and a Thief by Megha Majumdar, set in Kolkata, India, in the near future, about a family who are preparing to come to the United States as climate refugees. This tells you something about what's happening in the near future. And a thief breaks into their house one night to steal food. His life becomes all tied up in theirs over the course of just that one week while they're preparing for their trip. And it's devastating, but in a quiet way that I really appreciate it. I think most of the times that I've talked about this book this year, I've said that I think a lot of climate fiction really hits readers over the head with, like, you don't get how bad things are, but it's like actually a good writer can convey how bad things are in really subtle details. Like that the doorknob burns someone's hand when they reach for it. But you, because it's so hot outside, that kind of stuff. Majumdar really gets that tons to talk about there. And I just read Palaver by Brian Washington.

[Jeff O'Neill]

You haven't mentioned this. When I saw this, I was so excited.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I just read it. Yeah. Set in Tokyo, about a black man and his mother who haven't seen each other in 10 years. And it opens as his mom has arrived in Tokyo to visit him pretty uninvited. And they are spending time in each other's orbits, but mostly not with each other. Like, he goes about his life and she goes about exploring his neighborhood and, like, ends up going on dates with a person who owns a restaurant down the street. And they're each kind of trying to construct and fill in the gaps of their understanding of the other one and of their relationship over the last decade, but they do it in a pretty circumspect way. It's beautifully written. There's a little like narrative distancing to it. The characters aren't, the main characters aren't named. She is just called the mother and he is just called the son. Everyone else has a given name. So you have to be down for a little some of that writerly. Brian Washington is a writerly writer, so you have to be down for that. If you're looking for more story, I would say A Guardian and a Thief, but they're both really wonderful.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I guess my book club and this is where I started to get into Backlist because I don't know what people have read and maybe these folks, especially if they're based in the uk have never heard of Celeste Ng and this first one is based in the us But I think it is certainly not US triumphalist. Rebecca. If anything, it's a story of a mixed race Chinese family and it is both a on the COVID but also a useful content advisory piece to know that the daughter in this family drowns and the things said, none said about that, but also about the wider family systems and their position in the world, in their community are seen through that lens. And it's, it's really, really good. And I think any place that has immigrants, that has racial and cultural dynamics that are not always the smoothest, which is frankly most places, but I know the UK has had their own experience with that too. That it said in the US is meaningful detail, but I think it's transportable and useful to think about for any kind of reader. And then Bandit Queens, it's a little more fun by Parini Shore, even though it is it's a comic novel, believe it or not, by a group of women. I can't remember if it's India or Pakistan. Off the top of my head. I should have looked this up. But these women who all have a reason to wish their husbands were gone dead, leave them alone, they start to band together to do not do threaten, faint. And I'll leave some of the reality of what happens, what doesn't to your imagination and to your reading experience. But I thought it was both sharp and light at the same time. A very difficult tone that she pulls off here, which it's not ridiculous where there's no stakes and it's not as dark and like Tarantino esque as this sort of prompt would sound. A really, really fascinating achievement. And I think she has another book out coming out soon that I'm looking forward to with great anticipation. So that's a banded Queens by Parini Shore for my second pick.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

That's a great one. I think I picked that up several years ago after you recommended it on one of these episodes.

[Jeff O'Neill]

That's a good one.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Really good pick. All right, this next one's me. This last one for the day.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, I think so. I think so.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

We'll end on this note on a downer. I appre we're only on a realist note.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Oh yeah, that's right.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Mel says hi. I've been depressed, depressed since I was 14 and I hate Christmas. It just feels like this white, heteronormative, perfect family lie where if you just get married to the perfect person of the opposite sex, give birth to 2.5 children, dress them and yourselves in matching outfits and go into debt buying these 800 things, then you too can be happy and coincidentally better than your neighbors and the people you sit next to at church. I want to like Christmas. I just can't seem to. Growing up queer in an evangelical charismatic church made it all seem like bs. Every kiss does not begin with K. Some of us couldn't even get legally engaged until about two minutes ago. I would appreciate books that take place at Christmas that are very clear eyed about it and maybe even a bit funny. A brief list of books that have scratched that itch for me include Small Things like these by Claire Keegan, We Are okay by Nina LaCour and Seven Days of Us by Francesca Hornack. Also improbably A Christmas Carol. Thank you in advance and I appreciate this last note. Mel says I should probably mention if either of you recommend that supposedly romantic, romantic O. Henry short story about a married couple who can't have an open and honest discussion, I will subscribe or unsubscribe immediately. And Mel, we would never do that to you. No gift of the Magi here.

[Jeff O'Neill]

So I haven't read this book for 20 years. So I have here a very tentatively suggesting Mr. Ives's Christmas by Oscar Huelos. Oscar Whale is best known for is I think Pulitzer Prize winning book the Mambo Kings play Songs of Love. Oh yeah, really interesting writer. I think shattered McMillan or someone is reissuing a bunch of his backlist. I'm sure you can buy find this used. The main character, Mr. Ives has had a wonderful life and I'm pretty sure this is on the jacket. But to get to the darker tone or at least the more complicated tone, I think you're looking for Mel. I'll tell you this. His son is killed on Christmas Day. So if that's not something you or someone else listening wants to engage with. I totally understand. I'm not sure I would pick this up today, being the person I am when where I'm in my own family journey. But. And it, as you might imagine, a crisis of confidence, a crisis of faith. And over the next several decades he tries to deal with it until it culminates in a bittersweet, provocative confrontation slash reckoning at the end of the book. I think I wasn't sure about it until I got to improbably A Christmas Carol. Because A Christmas Carol is not essentially misanthropic. What A Christmas Carol is, I think is what you're looking for is it is trying to peel back the layers of the superficiality of the quote unquote season to show and use it as an opportunity to reckon with what really matters and what could matters and how distinct that might be from dressing you and your family up in matching sweaters at the Atlanta Botanical Garden Gardens and walking around with your cardigans and your penny loafers and all looking miserable. I saw multiple families doing this.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I was about to ask if that's.

[Jeff O'Neill]

The social dynamics here of some of these people. I hope they're having a great time. I really hope everyone's happy and everything turns out great. But I had a little bit even of myself with my own two children in a white heteronormative relationship being like, ooh, booey, there is something going on there.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

It's a tough one.

[Jeff O'Neill]

But anyway, that's Mr. Ives's Christmas by Oscar Huelos.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Mel, if you have not read the Corrections by Jonathan Franzen, I think this is what you're looking for.

[Jeff O'Neill]

This book is not what people think it is.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

It's not because I. You're probably. Or you may be hearing this being like. But Jonathan Franzen is the heteronormative middle aged white guy novelist. And how is he going to. To know what I'm talking about? But Jonathan Franzen is.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Listen, we know, Mel, we know.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, we do know a lot.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Celebration.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Jonathan Franzen is writing about how this is a lie. Like this lie you've described of. If I just get married and have two and a half kids and we have our matching outfits, then everything's gonna be great. It starts on Christmas. The family are all back together, which like getting the band back together is a trope that we love here at the Book Riot podcast. And it does not go well. And people get into their shit and they have to excavate like layers of family history that are of weighted by the additional, like, pressure of the holiday season and this thing where it's supposed to be the most wonderful time of the year, but also you're supposed to produce the most wonderful time of the year and you're supposed to produce happiness and you're disappointed on Christmas. Well, it's just because you've been a disappointment for the last 25 years.

[Jeff O'Neill]

You didn't buy enough let it snow trash cans.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Right. And, like, would you like my scroll? Of all the ways in which you're disappointing, it's just, it is just so sharp. And so I just want to recommend it that if you have been avoiding Jonathan Franzen for all of the very understandable ways that he is presented, like in the discourse, I would encourage you to give it a shot. Also, if somehow you have not seen the Fishes episode of the Bear, I think you will find it to be very cathartic.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, very much so. All right. Thus Endeth Part one. For those of you listening in the US and around the world, of course. But have a great holiday weekend. I hope you can find some time for yourself to shop or read or do whatever it is that you'd like to do with a little downtime. We will be back in about five minutes. You and I will record the second half of this, but it'll be out the week after. Thanks everyone for writing in. You can find [e-mail] Listen, you can shoot us an email. We love to hear how our recommendations went over. We also love to hear as people want to do. And we do. This is not ironical. It's one of those things where you say this is not ironical, that there's no way to hear it other than ironical. After you say that. I do like to hear other recommendations, supplementary recommendations for the prompts. We do not take that to be anything other than a desire a reader, a good neighborly readerly desire to pitch in. Because we cannot have read all the things that you all have read. Certainly not as recently, even if the things that we have read. Shoot an email [e-mail] Sounds like there's a lot of Secret History fans over there. Go check out the Secret History episode of Zero to well read. It's the most popular one so far. We're getting a lot of good feedback about that one. And then if you're looking for the Christmas Carol that will be in the feed there as well, maybe you could drop it in this feed just for fun, for people listening. See what we're going to do there. Rebecca thank you. I'll talk to you in a few.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Happy holidays, y'.

[Jeff O'Neill]

All.