← Book Riot - The Podcast
Book Riot - The Podcast
TikTok's Publishing Imprint Folds, BookCon Returns, and More Book News
00:54:19
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- [00:01]
Rebecca Schinsky
This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Knowing you could be saving money for.
- [00:05]
Vanessa Diaz
The things you really want is a great feeling.
- [00:08]
Rebecca Schinsky
Talk to a State Farm agent today to learn how you can choose to.
- [00:11]
Vanessa Diaz
Bundle and save with the personal price plan.
- [00:13]
Rebecca Schinsky
Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.
- [00:16]
Vanessa Diaz
Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state.
- [00:18]
Rebecca Schinsky
Coverage options are selected by the customer.
- [00:21]
Vanessa Diaz
Availability, amount of discounts and savings and.
- [00:23]
Rebecca Schinsky
Eligibility vary by State. Shop 4th of July Savings at the Home Depot right now and get up to 40% off plus up to an extra $600 off select appliances with free delivery like Samsung from all in one washer dryers to smart refrigerators. Upgrade to tech you can trust with Samsung appliances. The Home Depot has what you need to simplify your routine. Don't miss 4th of July appliance savings at the Home Depot. Free delivery on appliance purchases of $396 or more offer valid June 18 through July 9 US only. See store or online for details. This is the Book Riot Podcast. I'm Rebecca Schinsky. I'm here with Vanessa Diaz this week while Jeff is running around somewhere on the east coast. And I think we're going to be up to our usual shenanigans. Vanessa, always a delight to have you.
- [01:13]
Jeff O'Neal
Thank you. I'm here for the Shannan and again it's great.
- [01:18]
Rebecca Schinsky
There is some TV show where the bar is called like Shannan again or something like that and I've just always thought that that would be.
- [01:24]
Jeff O'Neal
Oh yeah. One of my favorite pieces of random TikTok advice I ever got was that it about dating. But it was like if that man Shanann wants he will Shanann again. And that's the thing I say to people. So I had to work that in somehow.
- [01:34]
Rebecca Schinsky
I would just like to go down as a person who was always willing to Shanann again. Let this be my legacy.
- [01:41]
Jeff O'Neal
Your legacy. So yeah, gonna be up to our usual business around these parts.
- [01:45]
Rebecca Schinsky
Yeah, an interesting week in books. I think we're kind of in a like early mid summer news doldrum. There hasn't been a whole lot going on in publishing and then yesterday there was a big story and today there's. So we're just gonna see where the agenda takes us today. And I believe that we are introducing a new feature that you are calling Vanessa's social media Rabbit Hole Corner.
- [02:09]
Jeff O'Neal
We've done it a few times so I figured let's just keep it going. And it felt like cause it just served itself up on a platter to me this week and it is of interest, I think to book people. So yeah, we're gonna keep it going.
- [02:19]
Rebecca Schinsky
Might as well make it official. You know, you can be the social media correspondent. The shenanigans. The social media shenanigan correspondent, absolutely. Before we get into the news, just want to remind folks that we, well, you and I and Jeff will be at Powell's talking about the best books of the year so far on July 9th at 7pm Tickets are 10 bucks and that also gets you 10% off the purchases you make that night. We'll each be presenting five favorite books. We'll be joined by Powell's book buyer extraordinaire, Keith Mossman, who will be presenting five of his favorites. And then just like we did with our most recommendable books of the century so far, live show, if this there's time, we will invite folks who are hanging out and who want to share to share some of their favorites of the year as well. So click the link in the show notes. Come hang out with us on July 9th. We would love to meet you all in person. And again, we so appreciate the calls that we've gotten in response on social media for like, when are you going to come to la? When are you going to come to New York? We would love to explore those things. It helps to have a bookstore partnership or a great event space that we don't have to spend a million dollars for. So if you're connected to something like that or a book festival, a literary event where a Libra recording of the show would be a good addition to what you're doing, holler at us. Podcastookriot.com put something about live events in the subject line so that we know, you know, to prioritize that we get a whole lot of email. And speaking of email, the inbox is open for our summer Ask us anything can be life advice can be work stuff can be about books or movies or hobbies or whatever. Just don't make it weird again, that's podcastookriot.com and put mailbag in the subject line. If you're catching up on PA, you can join us there at patreon.com bookriotpodcast we've done some recent reading check ins. We've talked about recent big book deals and most recently Jeff and I talked about our shared love of Richard Linklater's before movie trilogy, which now I'm feeling like kind of ahead of the headlines on because I've seen some other big coverage coming out recently about Before Sunset particularly. So if you haven't seen those. Give It a Listen. If you have seen them and you want to quibble with us, give It a listen. There's always good stuff there. And I mean, that really sums it up. We will be talking about best, not best, but the books, like newsworthy books of the year so far in the feed later in this week. And then when Jeff returns, we'll get into the IT books of July and a reflection of how we did on IT books in the first six months of this year. So that's all the common attractions and let's take a quick sponsor break before we get into the news. If, like me, you love travel as much as you love books, you're into stories that sweep you away and stay with you like a favorite souvenir, Check out Strong Sense of Place. It's a podcast that explores the world one destination at a time. Think Morocco, Iceland, or New Orleans through five handpicked books that bring each setting vividly to life. You get culture, food, history, and the kind of texture that makes you want to buy a plane ticket on impulse and pack a bag. It's not just about geography, though. It's also about the atmosphere, the kind of storytelling that lets you hear the music from a street corner in Havana or smell the spices in a Thai market without ever having to leave the comfort of your couch. The hosts, Mel and Dave, are a writer photographer duo with great chemistry and a real curiosity about the world. They're in their seventh season now, with more than 60 episodes to dig into. So if your idea of a perfect escape is a great story in an unforgettable place, Strong Sense of Place might just be your new favorite. Listen, subscribe wherever you get your podcasts or head to strongsenseofplace.com.
- [06:10]
Jeff O'Neal
Today's episode is brought to you by Kanopy Stream Smarter. Use your library card. We all know streaming is a little bit out of control these days. There's just so many different apps that you have to have to get all of the content that you want to watch. But on the Kanopy app, you can stream thousands, thousands of movies or TV shows for free thanks to the generous support of your public library. A moment for libraries just they're the best. All you need is a library card to access popular movies and TV shows, read alongs, and kids programming on your smart TV, tablet, phone or browser. Visit Kanopy.com to find a library near you and stream Smarter for free. Today again, that is kanopy.com thank you once again to Kanopy for sponsoring today's show.
- [06:54]
Vanessa Diaz
Today's episode is brought to you by sourcebooks Landmark, publisher of the Ghostwriter by Julie Clark Ghostwriter Olivia Dumont has spent her life hiding the fact that she is the only child of legendary horror author Vincent Taylor, famous not only for his novels, but for being the prime suspect in the brutal slaying of his older brother and younger sister in 1975. Now, Olivia Miss Olivia is on the brink of financial ruin when she's called back to Ojai to ghostwrite her father's last book. With no other jobs on the horizon, Olivia accepts, assuming it's her father's next horror novel. Now, what she doesn't expect is that after 50 years of silence, Vincent Taylor is finally ready to talk. From instant New York Times bestselling author Julie Clark comes a dazzling thriller in which a struggling ghostwriter is hired to finish her legendary father's last book, a story that will finally force him to tell the truth about the murders that have haunted their family for 50 years. I'm intrigued. Make sure to check out the Ghost Writer by Julie Clark. And thanks again to Sourcebooks Landmark for sponsoring this episode.
- [08:01]
Rebecca Schinsky
Vanessa, where do you want to start?
- [08:03]
Jeff O'Neal
Oof. Wow. Let's. Well, let's start with some good news for the people at least. I know a lot of people have been clamoring for this sort of thing to happen and it is indeed and that is about a bookcon. I have never been to bookcon, but I know a lot of you love bookcon. And bookcon is back is the big news here. It was just announced that it will return in 2026 and it's going back to its stomping grounds over at the Javits center in New York City. It is scheduled for April 18th to 19th of 2026. I had to kind of brush up on this for myself because I was like wait, Book Expo, bookcon, which is which? And so Book Expo is much more the like trade version of this giant exposition. But bookcon is the consumer facing show and book lovers all around, at least according to my social media feeds, are rejoicing and just having a great old time about the fact that this is going to make its return because it was canceled once Covid made it a non reality back in 2020.
- [08:59]
Rebecca Schinsky
Yeah, so book Expo had been happening in one form or another in industry for decades. It initially began as the American Booksellers Association's annual conference where they, you know, did professional development, met up with publishers to hear about their big titles coming up for the year and then as the industry grew you know, media people started going, bloggers started going. It became bigger than just independent booksellers. And then I think for a couple of years like 2012 and 2013, Book Expo had allowed readers to just come in for some events that didn't go super well, like mixing in the fan convention elements with the professional conference elements. So in 2014 they launched a BookCon as a standalone event and it ran through 2019. Then as you said, in 2020, they canceled both BookCon and Book Expo. Reid Pop is the convention company, Reed Expositions or exhibitions that runs, you know, all of these, you know, big events. But they are bringing it back. I have to admit I was surprised to see the email land in my inbox just because like we haven't been talking about bookcon, but this makes a ton sense to me right now in the moment of TikTok content creation. Like my money is on a bunch of BookTok favorites, a bunch of photo friendly special editions, probably some like I hate to say the phrase, but influencer activations will happen. And I've even seen this already start to roll out. Like bookcon got influencers involved in announcing the launch of this. This is a huge expense for publishers to pay to participate to prod a bunch of swag that they're going to give away. We will get to see like the running of the bulls when the bookcon show floor opens and people I don't know compete to see how many free tote bags they can pick up in like Supermarket sweep style. It's going to be really interesting to see none of the programming has been announced yet, but if you're interested in attending, it's going to be April 18th and 19th next spring at the Javits center, as Vanessa was saying. And you can sign up at the bookcon website now to receive their email newsletter. With all of the future announce. Um, V. Are you. Are. Is this the thing you want to go to?
- [11:14]
Jeff O'Neal
I think I may not be the target audience for this anymore because I'm on the industry side of it. Like, and I say that again. I'm. I try to be team, like don't yuck people's Yelp. I think it's a really cool thing for people who have been looking for something like this. You know, I, in the piece that we'll link to, I did at first kind of side with the person who was like, oh, is this going to make like a meaningful because it is going to be like you said, a massive expense. I was like, is this going to be something that's going to move the needle forward meaningfully for, like, sales, et cetera. But I do think that we're in such a different place now with, like, influencer culture around books, that this is a good thing that people are going to, like, plan their lives around and, like, be really jazzed about in a way that I don't know that I am the target for anymore. Being a person who has access to all these books, et cetera. Like, it could be fun to fan out, but there is a portion of me that's like, let the people have this. Like, this may not be for me.
- [12:01]
Rebecca Schinsky
I agree.
- [12:01]
Jeff O'Neal
Yeah. Yeah. So I did want to point out, though, that two reasons why I'm very glad that it's me that's here today is even though the programming itself has not been announced, of course they gave just some, like, oh, we're going to have, like, book club meetings and book signings. And two of the things that I cackled out loud is that there's going to be a fantasy ball.
- [12:19]
Rebecca Schinsky
Oh, there is.
- [12:19]
Jeff O'Neal
I missed that detail and sprayed Edge workshops, otherwise known as spreadge workshops, and I was like, aha. It's just very.
- [12:28]
Rebecca Schinsky
Oh, well, Jeff will be very excited. Yes.
- [12:30]
Jeff O'Neal
But yeah. What are your thoughts on it?
- [12:32]
Rebecca Schinsky
I was just telling someone yesterday about the fyre fest of Booktok Balls and the existence of Shadow Daddy. Yes. I think this is really smart. It's a smart move. There are, and I mean, there are a lot of readers who their entire community around loving books exists online. So I imagine that this will be not just a cool opportunity to, like, get together and see an author speak that you love or do something like spray your own edges, but meet other people who are doing the same, you know, kind of fandom that you're doing. When I was early in my book blogging, it was really fun to get together with other folks who were, you know, creating content and excited about books in the same way. I think that that is very much going to be the target audience for this. And I wouldn't be surprised if, like, behind the scenes, there are some metrics around what kind of online exposure bookcon and Reed Expo and the publishers buying in are hoping to get from it. It's this all. It seems like they're trying to throw in everything and the kitchen sink. And I worry about that with any event, especially when it's coming back for the first time, like trying to make absolutely everybody happy. But if, like, Javits is huge. So there's no reason that they can't have a fant Ball and then a spreadsh workshop in the next room and then a book club meetup and then a panel. So it'll be, I think, interesting to just watch who's excited about this. And the thing that I'm particularly curious about will be once they start rolling out the list of books and authors that are going to be there, I think that will give us some insight into what publishers are prioritizing and also how publishers are conceiving of what they think readers are interested in and excited about right now. Whether those are the things that readers actually are interested in and excited about, or they're the things that publishers wish readers would be interested and excited about. It's sort of always the question with a big advertising opportunity like this, but I'm going to be paying attention to that one pretty closely.
- [14:23]
Jeff O'Neal
Absolutely.
- [14:25]
Rebecca Schinsky
All right, so bookcon next April. Let us know if that's a thing you'll be going to. And we will continue to, you know, just pay attention as the news rolls out. While we're talking about influencers, pretty big news is just sort of creeping out this week that ByteDance appears to be closing 8th Note Press, which is the publishing imprint that they launched in 2023. ByteDance is, of course, the owner of TikTok. And this was a huge deal when they announced it because, of course, TikTok moves a ton of units. And shortly before the announcement about 8th Note Press came out, TikTok had admitted to, I think it was Forbes that originally reported it, that they basically had a button they could press to decide would go viral. So, like when booktok is selling a ton of units and you know that they can change what the algorithm is serving to people. Why wouldn't you want a shot at like an inside track on that? 8th Note Press was built around a philosophy that they called building backwards, where they were selecting titles to publish based on what was already trending. They had acquired more than 30 novels. And now it the bookseller, which we'll have a link in the show Notes, has information that authors and agents are negotiating the return of rights to titles that the publisher acquired. They've also noticed that all of the Digital presence for 8th Note Press has been quietly deleted. Nobody from 8th Note Press or ByteDance or TikTok has confirmed any of this on the record to the bookseller. Jane Friedman is covering it as well. She's been linking in her newsletter, which is paywalled and is worth the money if you're in the industry, to stories from authors about the lack of support they received and about how this is going. So really unfortunate to see that happen to authors who thought that they were getting in on something that might be a huge advantage. Some of them were self published and had quite a track record of success. And now this has really derailed their careers. But also the bigger note of not even a company that has an inside track on the TikTok algorithm can make a successful go of this. The postmortem here is going to be fascinating.
- [16:40]
Jeff O'Neal
That's what I was going to say is like, I would really, really love to be around for some kind of debrief that I will never get access to because yeah, knowing that you have the power to do the virality thing and yet still not being able. Not once, like, not even once, according to the piece, and not that I've noticed in my. Because I do spend a fair amount of time on TikTok. How were they able to replicate any of that virality, let alone actual success with any of their titles? It's just like proof that this backwards engineering doesn't necessarily work out the way you think it's going to. At least not at this kind of investment. Um, but I would love to know. Yeah. The inside baseball here that I. Like I said, I don't think I'm ever going to get. I really feel bad for all of those authors who had so much invested in this that are now like, well, we're waiting to hear what's going to happen with our stuff. Yeah.
- [17:24]
Rebecca Schinsky
I would imagine the NDAs from the employee side are pretty ironclad. The bookseller noticed that the person who had been the senior editor for 8th Note Press, according to their LinkedIn page, left that position in April and has moved on somewhere else. So it does seem that these changes are afoot. Someone will confirm something at some point.
- [17:44]
Jeff O'Neal
Yeah.
- [17:45]
Rebecca Schinsky
But what that is or how juicy.
- [17:48]
Jeff O'Neal
How juicy.
- [17:48]
Rebecca Schinsky
Yeah, yeah, it'll be remains to be seen. I think a real note of caution about the appeal of trying to like ride the dragon of the algorithm or try to get an inside edge on something that is controlled by people you don't know who don't have your best interests at heart. They have their own company's best interest at heart. So. So a word. Man, that's a complicated one. I really hate it for the authors who were involved. I totally understand how if you were, you know, self published and choosing between a couple different traditional publishing options, like, you know, going with one of the big five or going with the new outfit that had an inside line on TikTok, supposedly would have been really compelling.
- [18:32]
Jeff O'Neal
Yeah. Especially when you're seeing the virality of, like, so many other. I can't imagine that wasn't tempting. And so I don't put it on them in any way. But that's why it feels so awful to, like, now know that they're stuck because they're the ones that are. I mean, everybody's losing on this, but they really are. So.
- [18:46]
Rebecca Schinsky
Yeah. Do you want to take us down social media rabbit hole corner while we were talking about TikTok?
- [18:50]
Jeff O'Neal
May as well, because we're here. So I admit I've never read Ali Hazelwood, but she's an author that, like, I notice a lot of my favorite authors really, really ride hard for. She, of course, writes this very, like, STEM informed romance. She herself is a scientist. And this news was starting to percolate. All I saw initially was just a bunch of tweets or whatever the threads versions are called, that were like, look like, Ali Hazelwood is my girl and y' all need to, like, go touch grass. So I' of course, like, well, let me click on this.
- [19:18]
Rebecca Schinsky
I don't know anything about this. I'm so chin hands right now.
- [19:21]
Jeff O'Neal
Great. Because it's ridiculous. Because it is all about shipping Peeta vs Gale with Katniss in the Hunger Games. So you heard me right? This was because Ali Hazelwood expressed, like, a total throwaway and, like, funny meant to be funny opinion about the Hunger Games, a book that was published in 2008.
- [19:40]
Rebecca Schinsky
So this is a social media controversy from, like, 2010, except that it's current.
- [19:46]
Jeff O'Neal
In the fact that it. So, okay, so what happened is Ali Hazelwood was one of a couple different authors at a panel at the Los Angeles Times Festival of Books at USC back in. I think this was in April. And somebody recently, though, uploaded a clip of that panel where she was with Taylor Capozola, I think, was the moderator. And then the other authors were, I think, Megan Quinn and, like, Nana Malone. And I don't. I didn't see the whole, you know, chunks, because only this chunk, this little piece was uploaded. But effectively, somehow the conversations had drifted to discussions of the Hunger Games. And the moderator was saying how she's Team Peeta and she doesn't understand how anybody could not be team Peeta in 2025. And Allie was like, sorry, but, like, PETA was useless. Team Gail, like, all day kind of thing. And maybe says, like, one other sentence about it, but they're all laughing, right? Like, it's clear that everybody's having a good time. Taylor, the moderator does say at one point, okay, guys, I need y' all to start like a cancel Ali Hazelwood hashtag. Like I'm going to be out here creating lots of fake accounts. But it's very clear that this is all like hyperbolic good fun. Well, this clip gets uploaded again, I think something like 8 days ago at this point, maybe more. And people lost their ever loving minds. There is a whole sub threaded that like or subreddit, pardon me, that erupted with people just ripping Ali to shreds. And then they took it to Instagram and started commenting on a post that was really just. It's like a collaborative post between Ali and somebody else for an upcoming, I think Kauai based writers conference where people were like just doing everything, you know, people who have not indeed touched grass in a very long time to do about. Like, how could you fundamentally don't understand the books. How dare you choose him over her? Don't you know? I mean, it was just. Well, so wow. The long and short of it is that it ended up running Ali Hazelwood off of Instagram, at least in theory. The like update has been that Ally was so inundated by the comments and which unfortunately this is not the first time she goes through something like this.
- [21:29]
Rebecca Schinsky
Yeah.
- [21:30]
Jeff O'Neal
But that she just didn't. She meant to hit like the like close comments button and instead deleted the or deactivated it. But that it wasn't her intention. At least that's what a friend of hers has come forward to say in the aftermath. That she's fine, but that it was like too much.
- [21:44]
Rebecca Schinsky
Yeah.
- [21:45]
Jeff O'Neal
So that's where we're at. People just losing their mind because of this. Again, just like fun little exchange.
- [21:51]
Rebecca Schinsky
Let's call this what it is. Like that's harassment and cyberbullying.
- [21:55]
Jeff O'Neal
Correct. That's all it is. And it was. I don't, I won't repeat some of the things I saw, but it was, it is the biggest case I've seen for Go Touch Grass in a very long time. Yeah.
- [22:02]
Rebecca Schinsky
For someone having an opinion about a.
- [22:05]
Jeff O'Neal
Book, about a book that came out when I was, you know, like fresh out of college, like, what are we doing?
- [22:11]
Rebecca Schinsky
We need to really come back to first principles that people having opinions that are different from yours is not an.
- [22:17]
Jeff O'Neal
Attack on you, on you, on books, on the book, on anything. It was just again, if you watch the clip, it is such just like a clear exchange of, you know, authors having a good time on a panel.
- [22:27]
Rebecca Schinsky
And people made it weird, you know, being a little bit critical of things. Like people are allowed to have opinions.
- [22:33]
Jeff O'Neal
And it's the way this goes.
- [22:35]
Rebecca Schinsky
People are allowed to have opinions, period. This is so shitty and unfortunate. I'm so sorry that that happened to her. And over something completely absurd.
- [22:45]
Jeff O'Neal
Yeah, that's the part that really just takes me out. Because again, unfortunately, people have come for her for a variety of reasons that I'm not grasping onto the specifics of right now. But I know that she's not new to online harassment because sometimes people are awful. But this time, you know, again, when I saw people coming for her, I thought, okay, like, it's gonna be something really divisive or, you know, and I don't know what I. When I saw Peeta and Gail, I was like, there's no way. There's no way. There's no way. But there was a way.
- [23:10]
Rebecca Schinsky
Yeah. You don't just need to like, touch grass if you're participating in something like this. You need to have your Internet taken away.
- [23:16]
Jeff O'Neal
Correct. Privileges are.
- [23:17]
Rebecca Schinsky
We've gone around the bend.
- [23:19]
Jeff O'Neal
Yeah. So that is what's been happening. It has inspired me to go and buy some Ali Hazelwood books to like finally go read for stories.
- [23:26]
Rebecca Schinsky
Yes, let's do that. Support Ali Hazelwood because people are allowed to have opinions about books and not be weird.
- [23:33]
Jeff O'Neal
But yeah, that's Vanessa's social media around the whole corner. And she does appear to be some of your favorite author's. Favorite author. So again, she seems like an all around cool human from what I could tell, and writes again, really cool, like steamy stem romance.
- [23:45]
Rebecca Schinsky
I've been meaning to read her forever. I know Jeff's partner, Michelle is a huge Ali Hazelwood fan.
- [23:49]
Jeff O'Neal
Oh, I want to know that.
- [23:50]
Rebecca Schinsky
Yeah, I'm gonna have to. I have been intending to get a rec from her about which one to start with, so maybe we can loop in a real expert. Yeah, like we just need to have a conversation about the. This as the bookish community in general that like, people are allowed to have opinions and expressing an opinion is not an attack. And also, like, having a critical or a negative opinion is a thing that's acceptable.
- [24:15]
Jeff O'Neal
And actually, really, I don't want to spend too much more time on this, but the piece that I linked in our agenda that I hope will make it to the notes here, that's originally about what happened. It's actually a piece from Smart Bitches Trashy Books, which I love. And it's a piece that like resonated a ton with me, which is that like the. The authors of the actual post are talking about how hard they relate to what happened and how it has made Internet discourse feel so scary that so many. And I'll confess that I'm in the same camp that sometimes I feel like I am holding back how I feel about a thing. Or like just I'm afraid to engage in certain kinds of discourse because of that fear that something I say, however well intentioned, will be so misconstrued that this would happen.
- [24:54]
Rebecca Schinsky
Right. And we're not talking about like, that you're holding back what you know to be like spicy political opinions or something. We're talking about books here.
- [25:01]
Jeff O'Neal
Books. And that' part that I thought that when like, again, because I have no problem saying how. I mean, if you read any of my content, you'll be very clear about how I feel about stuff. But it's silly how something like this is what I will sometimes hold back on because it just feels like all you have to do is again, come out in favor of like a love interest in a dystopian YA book between imaginary people.
- [25:21]
Rebecca Schinsky
Yes.
- [25:21]
Jeff O'Neal
Like to suddenly have people launching for like, you to cut off your head. Like, what are we doing?
- [25:25]
Rebecca Schinsky
Yeah, this is not. The kids are not okay. I'm concerned and I feel the same way. I'm looking forward to reading this Smart Bitches trashy books piece. Like, last week, in one of the social videos that I made for Book Riot, I mentioned Kevin Wilson's new book, Run for the Hills, which Jeff and Sharifah and I had a detailed conversation about here in this feed where we liked it but didn't love it. And that's basically what I said. Like I said, I usually love him. This one didn't quite deliver for me. Like. Like, that is almost verbatim the content of it. And there were a couple folks who were really upset about, like, how dare I tear someone down? Like, I would like for you to.
- [26:05]
Jeff O'Neal
Be present for an actual tear down of mine in Spanish. Not a tear down.
- [26:10]
Rebecca Schinsky
If you want a tear down. I invite you to read Katie Waldman's review of the new James Frey in the New Yorker this week.
- [26:19]
Jeff O'Neal
That's a real fun.
- [26:21]
Rebecca Schinsky
It's a real thing of beauty. It seems that the new James Frey book is quite bad and Katie Waldman did us all a public service by reading and reviewing it. But she also seems to have had a good time doing that.
- [26:33]
Jeff O'Neal
Correct.
- [26:34]
Rebecca Schinsky
And you know what? She's allowed to have that opinion and she's not doing something mean to James Fray. Criticism is acceptable. You know, one of the things Jeff was responding to folks on Instagram and was saying, like some people do want to know, like when we don't like something. There's a bunch of us here, people know if they, if their taste aligns with yours or mine or Jeff's or Sharifa's, and it's helpful to hear when someone doesn't like something just as much as when they do. Also, like, we are not so powerful that me saying Kevin Wilson's new book didn't quite deliver for me is going to do anything to Kevin Wilson. Like, he has a great career, he's doing just fine. We don't really do it about like debut novels, but that's more of an etiquette thing than a concern that will tank somebody's career. But, like, this is a conversation I just don't have any room for at this point. Like if you're coming to the Internet to talk to about a piece of media, a book, a TV show, a movie, an album, whatever, and you cannot stand anyone's expression that they just happen to not like that thing and they have reasons for not liking that thing. That doesn't mean they think you're bad or they that they think about you at all. I don't care if you like Kevin Wilson's new book. Like, I'm happy for you. Go to town. But this should not be happening to people. People should not be. Ali Hazelwood should still be on Instagram. Good lord.
- [27:48]
Jeff O'Neal
Like, look what you did.
- [27:51]
Rebecca Schinsky
Look what you did look like.
- [27:53]
Jeff O'Neal
So cranky. So yeah, do something better with your time. Again, those people definitely need to be put on Internet timeout, although I doubt that will happen. But around these days, in the court.
- [28:01]
Rebecca Schinsky
Of rightness, they would be on Internet timeout, correct? Let's man, let's take a little break, a little ad break here and we'll recover.
- [28:11]
Vanessa Diaz
Today's episode is brought to you by Bloomsbury Publishing, Publishers of House of Flame and Shadow By Sarah J. Matthew Moss Bryce never expected to see a world other than Midgard. But now that she has, all she wants is to get back. Everything she loves is there. Her family, her friends, her mate. After a few brief months with everything he ever wanted, Hunt is in the Asteris dungeons again, stripped of his freedom and without a clue as to Bryce's fate. Now in paperback, House of Flame and Shadow is the third book in the super sexy, action packed Crescent City series from Sarah J. Maas, which reaches new heights as Bryce and Hunt's world is brought to the brink of collapse with its future resting resting on their shoulders. Like I said before, this is the third book in this super sexy, action packed Crescent City series. And it is like if you're into Romantasy girl, you haven't read this. See what everyone's talking about. It's super best selling, it's a global phenomenon and it's now available in paperback. So get into it. Make sure to check out House of Flame and Shadow by Sarah J. Maas. And thanks again to Bloomsbury Publishing for sponsoring this episode.
- [29:17]
Rebecca Schinsky
The Disney plus Hulu Max Bundle it's the ultimate bundle for an unbelievable price plan starting at 16.99amonth. Get it and watch Marvel Television's Ironheart on Disney Plus. I want to build something iconic. A new season of the Bear on Hulu. We can make people happy. And the epic A Minecraft movie on Max.
- [29:36]
Jeff O'Neal
Anything you can imagine is possible.
- [29:38]
Rebecca Schinsky
The Disney Plus Hulu Max bundle plants don't get 1690. All these and more streaming soon.
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Jeff O'Neal
Terms apply.
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Rebecca Schinsky
Visit disneyhulumaxmondle.com for details. When you hear Lululemon, you probably think of aligned yoga pants. Weightlessly soft, like you're wearing next to nothing. That's why you see them in class, at the grocery store and in the park. But did you know about skirts with built in liner shorts so you can still jump for the Frisbee and tanks and bodysuits? With the line's iconic stretch, you won't.
- [30:09]
Jeff O'Neal
Want to take it off. And with endless style options, you don't.
- [30:12]
Rebecca Schinsky
Have to shop in store or online@lululemon.com okay, how about some good news from the fight against book banning because we gotta take our wins where we can get them. This week, voters in Huntington Beach, California, which has an all MAGA city council, they call themselves the Magnificent Magnificent Seven.
- [30:35]
Jeff O'Neal
I hate that so much.
- [30:36]
Rebecca Schinsky
That is really a thing that is happening. But voters outvoted them to the tune of almost 60% of voters. Repealing a community review board that has been allowed to decide which children's books are appropriate for the city's libraries and which are not. And then they also voted against a city council proposal that would have allowed the city to privatize and sell the public library. Big wins. There are still some votes remaining to be counted, but it's not enough that could sway the decision into any kind of different direction. So as soon as the results are official, that community review board will be repealed and librarians will once again be responsible for determining what books go on to public library shelves.
- [31:27]
Jeff O'Neal
Novel idea. Oh, I cannot believe they're referred to as the Magnificent Seven. I was vomited when I read that.
- [31:33]
Rebecca Schinsky
There'S like a photo of them all wearing their red hats and posing. This is, it's not just like a moniker from the local paper. They are, they are proud of this.
- [31:42]
Jeff O'Neal
It's a thing.
- [31:42]
Rebecca Schinsky
But yes, yeah, it's.
- [31:47]
Jeff O'Neal
Sorry, go ahead, make a very. No, I was like, what I was gonna say was not very charitable. But I'm, I am glad that both of these measures were passed. I do love that they straight up were like, no, we would like to dissolve everything that you're doing.
- [31:59]
Rebecca Schinsky
Like, that is like a real majority, almost 60%. Like, that's pretty close to having a mandate, I would say. And this is, I also just want to call attention to it because there has been a lot of like, oh my God, elections are over in the wake of the Trump administration. So let's notice that, you know, elections still happen. Most of our elections are administered at the city and state level. You know, the Trump administration can't do that much about them. And that these kinds of MAGA focused initiatives, especially book banning initiatives, continue to be deeply unpopular even with conservative voters and even in conservative areas. Areas. There's been a lot of data, Kelly Jensen has reported on over the last five years that the vast majority of citizens, the vast majority of parents don't support book bans. And so if you need to put some data onto your political panic, this is a good place to start.
- [32:51]
Jeff O'Neal
It's a great place to start. What I was going to say, but in a more charitable, tamped down way, is that as a resident of California or a former, I should say resident of Southern California, you know, there is some perception, depending on, on folks level of being informed that like it's completely blue everywhere you go. And that is very much not the case specifically in these kinds of pockets of like Orange county and even like south or like certain beach cities in LA even. And so it's important to like not feel like just because you live in a blue state that everywhere is safe. And it's really important to show up to these local elections because there's plenty of MAGA influence, especially in places like Orange County. And it's important to show up for that stuff to make those impacts, that they're just, they're monumental. Like, they start small, but this is a huge deal that this entire thing was, you know, dissolved and they won't have the ability to control books that are in public libraries. Like, that is hugely important. We talk about that. You know, Kelly talks about that all the time, the importance of these local elections. So again, it's you're not safe just because you're in a blue state per se. Like, please show up to this kind of thing and make your vote heard. Elections are happening all the time.
- [33:58]
Rebecca Schinsky
Yes, elections are happening all the time. And you're vote still matters. This was like 62,000 votes total. Something like that.
- [34:05]
Jeff O'Neal
Yeah.
- [34:06]
Rebecca Schinsky
So show up, pay attention to what's on the ballot, because I guarantee you the other side is doing that as well.
- [34:12]
Jeff O'Neal
Sure.
- [34:13]
Rebecca Schinsky
Let's talk about Reese Witherspoon. She's been making moves this week. The Reese's Book Club just turned eight this year. And it was announced earlier this week that hello, Sunshine has partnered with iHeartMedia to launch a companion podcast. Witherspoon won't be hosting it herself. She will be one of the executive producers. But the weekly show, which is going to be an iHeart podcast production, is called Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club. It's gonna be anchored by journalist and TV host Danielle Robay. It'll bring together celebrities, tastemakers, influencers, and of course, authors that have been featured on Reese's Book Club to talk about books. The first one comes out next week on the 24th or this week as most of you are listening to it and will feature Queen of the Rom com, Emily Henry and Yulin Kuang, who also has a rom com book out and directing the adaptation of one of Emily Henry's books. So that's. Yeah, that should be pretty interesting. What do you think about this? Eight years in to the Rhys Journey.
- [35:16]
Jeff O'Neal
I've been sitting with this one for a couple days now. So obviously we are in the business of book podcasts and I know what it takes to make a podcast and like, how to keep it interesting and how so many of your efforts that you put into a thing may or may not translate. Obviously she's got quite the machine. I mean, this is a giant, you know. Hello. Sunshine and Reese Witherspoon in general are just like, very much a household name. So I'm interested to see how popular this ends up being and what people's appetite is. Because obviously, like the stuff, the ingredients are there, right? She's got all of these huge names. She's got the backing of the fact that she's been around for so long and the popularity of the book club. Really cool people participating. I just, I'm interested to see if that translates in the same way to podcasts. It would be great if it does, but I have questions.
- [36:02]
Rebecca Schinsky
Yeah, I mean, always good for books and reading. When someone with this high of a profile Wants to launch a book. Big new thing. I think my primary question is similar to yours. Like, the kinds of authors that get featured in Reese's Book Club are not generally hurting for exposure.
- [36:19]
Jeff O'Neal
Exactly.
- [36:20]
Rebecca Schinsky
Like, if you want to hear a conversation with Emily Henry, you can find a billion of those online already. So whether this is just an easiest, easier place for folks to go, like, they can just find them directly in the Reese's Book Club feed or bookmarked feed. Maybe that is the idea here. I'm sure publishers are stoked, of course.
- [36:43]
Jeff O'Neal
Yeah. No, I mean, again, on paper, this is like a great idea. I just really do hope that at some point, like, I understand why you would open with, like, this banger of combo, right. Of like, Emily and Ring y Lin Kuang. I hope at some point that they were to translate all of that book power they have into potentially highlighting some new voices, which, in theory, is what, hello Sunshine has been like, trying to do. Maybe, you know, like, it would be great to see that because in theory, the audience is like, semi vague.
- [37:05]
Rebecca Schinsky
And, you know, I'm always curious about really how much appetite readers have for the like.
- [37:11]
Jeff O'Neal
Yes.
- [37:11]
Rebecca Schinsky
Where do you get your ideas from? Flavor of author interview Publishers have tried to launch or have launched a bunch of author interview podcasts that are intended to do a similar kind of thing. You know, promote authors new books, give them platforms for those. And to me, they always feel like just a canned version of what you would get if you went to the author's event in a bookstore. Like. Like most author events are fine. Very few author events are, like, really great or interesting. It's hard to do that well. And I think it's hard to do a good, consistently engaging author interview podcast. So I don't know anything about Danielle Robay, but she's had a pretty colorful and long career. She hosts some other shows for iHeart podcast already and. And, you know, has a lot of experience, so probably a good bet for somebody who could attempt that. But the programming, I think, could be really challenging here. So I'm. I'm going to be with you following what they do and how it goes. May their efforts succeed. Books to keep doing well, more book than always. Yes. Okay, we got to talk about this right wing. See you at the library event.
- [38:23]
Jeff O'Neal
I'm sorry, I just need a moment to barf again. But yeah, fine.
- [38:27]
Rebecca Schinsky
I did make you say Magnificent Seven, so I'll. I'll cover this one as well.
- [38:34]
Jeff O'Neal
I will chime in, I promise.
- [38:37]
Rebecca Schinsky
An organization. Yeah. Kirk Cameron, an organization called Brave Books is hosting their Third See youe at the Library event. It will be on Saturday, August 16th. Now this is an annual thing. It includes readings from pro from quote, Pro God, Pro America Books. It's a nationwide story hour that the right wing publisher hosts at local public libraries. Kirk Cameron, as you just mentioned, and other Brave Books authors have been the face of the event since it started in 2023. But this year there's a twist. The U.S. department of Education at the Library of Congress has partnered with the event at this time. There is no event scheduled at the actual Library of Congress. Also, the Department of Education is not part of the Library of Congress and it doesn' have authority over the Library of Congress. As we have said recently, repeatedly on this show, the Library of Congress is not a lit lending library that deals with like publicly available books.
- [39:42]
Jeff O'Neal
Rebecca I just in my soul feel this is a Four Seasons Landscaping shit 100%. But that somebody was like, dude, we're going to have a reading at the Library of yeah, yeah, do that, do that. And then somebody at some point was like. And it was too late.
- [39:58]
Rebecca Schinsky
Like they really don't know that that's not what the Library of Con does.
- [40:04]
Jeff O'Neal
Yeah, it's. There really isn't. And if you look at the website, of course it's all super, super vague. Like the involvement is quite. And it's intentional as Kelly points out in this piece here. But it's, there's, there's no, you know, there can't be any readings. There can't be story times in the Library of Congress or anywhere in D.C. apparently.
- [40:19]
Rebecca Schinsky
Yeah, I mean like it's, you know, not out of the question that they will roll some out. There aren't any currently listed, but the Trump administration has taken over and really gutted the Department of Education. The press release of about this includes quotes from Moms for Liberty who, as Kelly notes in this piece, were especially excited about the DEI snitch line that was intended to intimidate educators from doing their jobs. And the Department of Education social media presence hosts currently a lot of conspiracy theories and right wing partisan junk. Just two years ago, you know, when it was still under Biden, Brave Books was claiming that the Department of Education public had funded public school transitioning programs, which it absolutely does not, did not do. Yeah. So if you wish to like, you know, see where these are happening locally for you and protest or contact the organizations that are hosting them, maybe there are local businesses that are hosting them. This certainly an activism opportunity. You know, First Amendment rights apply here and they can host these events. But they can also reap the consequences of it.
- [41:34]
Jeff O'Neal
The piece also say does give a pretty good primer for folks who work in the libraries as well as, like Rebecca just said, ways to get involved. But like the one of the bigger issues here is that because they're so loud and proud and have been really vocal about breaking into lots of different public library spaces for the public, especially if you're not as well informed about it, it looks very much like these libraries are co signing and like are in partnership with these events where that is very much not the case. It's these, you know, brave books going out and like essentially demanding because of their First Amendment rights access to their rooms, like to rent them for this. And it's not they're not in cahoots in that way, but it looks that way. So anyway, there's a lot of really good primers in the piece for like how to prepare if you are the person working at the library that day or just in general or getting questions or like how to yourself, go interrogate why this is happening at your library. So as always, Kelly loves to give us, you know, all the juice and the meat about the story and then resources for how to potentially get involved. So go check out that piece.
- [42:24]
Rebecca Schinsky
Yes, links will be included. And I'll just say again and at every possible opportunity, if you're not subscribed to our literary activism newsletter that Kelly has heads up that is just such an a consistently incredible resource for staying on top of the news and really understanding what is happening, especially when a lot of misinformation tends to fly around the bookish Internet about these things. All right, I think that's the news this week, Vanessa.
- [42:50]
Jeff O'Neal
I think we did kind of.
- [42:52]
Rebecca Schinsky
We're all over the map. Let's take a little journey into front List Foyer, which is brought to us by Thriftbooks, which you all know at this point has an endless selection of books and videos, music, gifts, games, and they're all available at prices that fill your imagination and your library. Childhood Classics, New Worlds of Adventure There is something for everyone and every budget. And with the Thriftbooks Reading Rewards program, every purchase gets you closer to free book rewards. Read More, Spend Less at Thriftbooks for free shipping in the US of books over or of book orders over $15. And you can visit thriftbook books.comBRpodcast to see a running list of the titles that we talk about on the show. What have you been reading and how many of them are about the Golden Girls this week?
- [43:41]
Jeff O'Neal
I am not kidding I had a different pick that I hadn't finished, so I didn't feel. And then I was like, wait. I recently read an old Lady Sleuth book. I have to keep the train going. And so I put it back in. And anyway, so I'm gonna start with my other pick first, which is the Bewitching by Silvia Moreno Garcia, which I think comes out the week that this show goes live. I think it's the 25th. Yeah. Anyway, it's soon. You won't have to wait too long. She's one of my auto reads. I love me some Cilia Bueno Garcia, especially because she appears to have a genre wheel that she just spins and then wherever it lands. Like, I'm gonna write that now.
- [44:11]
Rebecca Schinsky
Seriously. She does all kinds of things.
- [44:14]
Jeff O'Neal
All kinds. And this one is catnip for me. It's called again, the Bewitching. So we know it's a little witchy. And it is a story of a college student who is. She's kind of an obsession, a healthy one, but still with this kind of obscure horror writer whose best friend went missing from the very school that she now attends. And so she's trying to kind of do her. Not her PhD, her big project, her thesis, I believe, about this author and is like running into issues. The side note to that, and it's another timeline that we're also getting in the story is that this person's grandmother was very much well versed in like, Brujeria and witchcraft. And at first you don't see how those two stories are connecting. And then slowly they do in a really interesting, juicy way. That's a little bit witchy. It's a little bit. It's obviously got historical fiction in there. It's got academia. It's a mystery. Like, it's a little bit paranormal. Like, there's just a whole lot going on in a way that Silvia Moreno Garcia, like, knows. She just does this stuff so well. And it was a great time. I. I had a really good time with this read. So if you're craving a little bit of that, yeah, witchy academia stuff, I think that's a home run. And then going to my old lady Sleuth corner or elderly A nerd occurring.
- [45:25]
Rebecca Schinsky
Segment here on the.
- [45:26]
Jeff O'Neal
The two things that can be confidently relied upon. A Murder for Miss Hortense by Mel Pennant, which is basically a cozy. That is set in the. Gosh, is it the 2000s in England? But the cool part about it really is that it's set. It also flashes back to the 60s, and it's the person, the mate, Ms. Hortense, is of the Windrush generation, which is a term I know I had heard a lot, but I don't think I had quite known the definition of. Yeah, it is a. Essentially in the 19, late 1940s. So after World War II, the British nationality act gave people from the colonies the right to live and work in Britain, which was basically their way of being like, oh, we had done all these wars and colonized all these places. Come, come help rebuild our economy. And so a whole bunch of Caribbean people ended up in the UK by the nature of this act. There's even, like, a giant boat. One of the ships was called the Wind, and that's why they're labeled that. But so this person is of the Windrush generation and is solving a crime that has to do with, like, this investor group that she was once a part of in her community. An investor group that looked to rebuild this community of migrants and of just people of color when it was clear that no one else was going to. And in the many years that have passed, something shady has gone down. There is as much as I think I want to say about the plot, but it's really, really great on audio. The person who does this narration is fantastic. Just this really great mixture of accents that are both Caribbean and English. And it's just. It's a good time. And I haven't read this flavor of cozy in a bit that. Yeah, it was. It was just a really fun time. And again, the person is of a certain age, and I. That's what I like to read in mysteries these days. So, yeah, you'll learn a lot about the Windrush generation, about British colonial practices, and just have a good mystery. So, yeah, that's a murder for Ms. Hortense.
- [47:11]
Rebecca Schinsky
I'm delighted that you had a good experience with author accents on audio after what happened for your experience with Bury Our Bones in the Midnight Soil.
- [47:20]
Jeff O'Neal
Yeah, I had a great time, but somebody sent me with Danica, actually, a screenshot that somebody was like, gosh, audio performance A. And I was like, I mean, granted, again, they did a great job in the parts that were not a Spanish accent. But anyway, this one is great. This one is a lot of fantastic, again, like, Caribbean accents that were just super fun. It's a great time.
- [47:38]
Rebecca Schinsky
I love that for you. I've been on a pretty good role, too. I just read Bed and Breakup by Susie Dumond. Book Riot's own Susie Dumond. She writes great Queer Romance. This one is Coming out in early July. It's about two women who were married, are technically still married to each other. But it's been like seven years since they broke up. They just haven't actually gotten divorced. They used to own a bed and breakfast in a charming little town called Eureka Springs, Arkansas, which, like, is a delightfully queer place in a really red state. And it really is that way in real life life. Yeah. One of them is kind of has become a celebrity chef. The other one is an artist. And for different reasons, each of them decides at, you know, very coincidentally the same time that the thing that they should do at this crossroads they've each found in their lives is go back to the bed and breakfast. Because they. They still own it, but they have been working with a management company who's been running it. And they're just going to. Each one of them thinks that they're going to. To spend the summer, like, having some time alone to figure out the next part of their life living in this building. But of course, one gets there and the other one is already there, and it's like, what are you doing here? We kind of hate each other. It's a second chance romance. They eventually find their way back to each other, but not without some bumps and bruises. They do some processing of things. It's charming. It's funny. It's really sweet. The pages turn. I loved spending time in this fictional version of Eureka Springs. I've never been there, but I've heard wonderful things about it. And, like, only Susie Dumond could make me want to go to Arkansas for fun.
- [49:25]
Jeff O'Neal
And apparently she went and stayed there. I mean, obviously she's familiar with it anyway, but, like, went and did, you know, research and, like, was that. Went there again and stayed at it. Yeah. So I thought she's.
- [49:33]
Rebecca Schinsky
Yeah, she's shown some pictures, pictures of like, some of the real B&BS that. That are there. Just really delightful. I thoroughly enjoyed it. Look forward to this in July. And then I am almost finished with Great Black Hope by Rob Franklin, which is one of the big debut novels of summer. It's about a queer black man in his, I think early mid-20s, from an affluent family. He's been palling around with, you know, kind of influencer types, like, glamorous sort of crowd, and he gets caught one night with cocaine, gets arrested, and what is going to happen in his life after that? This sends him into kind of a satirical experience with both the justice system and also rehab groups. But not completely satirical. Like, the character is trying to unearth what has happened not so long ago, before this incident with cocaine, his best friend was murdered and he is still processing that and like trying to figure out does he have an issue with substances? What is he going to do with his future? What's going to happen? As people try to like investigate the story of what happened to his friend, there's a section of the book where he goes home and spends time with his parents and like back in his original community in Atlanta. And for me, that was the most enjoyable part of the book. Like, there's just something really sharp about the way that Franklin writes those family dynamics. But the satire around this very glossy kind of glamorous group of people that the character's name is Smith that he's been running with in New York is also really fun and satisfying. It has some what we would call debut novel problems. The book is really, really ambitious and Franklin is doing a ton of things. I think my experience of it would have been better if he had done a couple fewer things. It could have just been a little bit tighter. But I really enjoyed it. I wouldn't be surprised if we see this get nominated for some stuff. Like there are some really stellar sentences just on the language level. The book is a real pleasure and you'll be cruising along in an elaborate description of some scene and then there's a really sharp, really funny observation about bitingly funny observation about this person that the character is in front of or what kind of people he's interacting. I will certainly be paying attention to Rob Franklin's career whatever happens after Great Black Hope. I think this is a really solid debut and it is out in the next week or so. I've lost track of where we are in pub dates. It might be out already. I'll have to go back and double check. But I would definitely recommend it if you're paying attention to those that kind of fiction, but also looking at debut writers and some new voices on the scene. Okay, that's our show this week. Vanessa, thanks as always for hopping in the sidecar and taking us down the rabbit holes.
- [52:26]
Jeff O'Neal
Happy to be the reporter from the fridge.
- [52:30]
Rebecca Schinsky
You can send your questions for the mailbag episode to podcastookriot.com or anything else you want to tell us about. That's our email address. Podcastookriot.com show notes will be@bookriot.com Listen join us on the Patreon Patreon to find all of our bonus content. And of course we hope to see you at Powell's on July 9 at 7pm Talking about the best books of the year so far. Have a good one. Thanks, Vanessa.
- [52:57]
Jeff O'Neal
Yeah, of course. Bye. Hey JJ Virgin here on my podcast.
- [53:09]
Rebecca Schinsky
Well beyond 40, we ditch the the.
- [53:11]
Jeff O'Neal
Idea of aging gracefully and go all in on aging powerfully. Every week I host powerful experts who can give you powerful insights on building muscle, boosting your energy, and feeling amazing no matter what your age.
- [53:26]
Rebecca Schinsky
This is your one life.
- [53:27]
Jeff O'Neal
And trust me, being smarter and stronger.
- [53:30]
Rebecca Schinsky
Are superpowers that can turn lifespan into strength span.
- [53:35]
Jeff O'Neal
Listen to well beyond 40 wherever you get your podcasts.