UPDATED The Audiobook Wars Rage On, Big ACOTAR Announcement, and More

Summary

Book Riot - The Podcast

Episode: "UPDATED The Audiobook Wars Rage On, Big ACOTAR Announcement, and More"

Hosts: Jeff O’Neill and Rebecca Schinsky
Release Date: March 9, 2026

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Episode Overview

This week, Jeff and Rebecca tackle a lively, wide-ranging batch of book and publishing industry news. Topics include digital distractions and reading habits, a major ACOTAR book announcement, the latest twists in the streaming audiobook wars, recent book sales trends, new book bans, the state of Black-owned bookstores, and personal reading recommendations. All delivered in signature Book Riot fashion: insightful, irreverent, and reader-first.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Challenge of "Screen Time" and Digital Distraction ([08:00]–[19:15])

• Discussion centers on a piece by Carlo Iacona, “Books and Screens," about how attention fragmentation is less about screens and more about how apps are intentionally designed to interrupt and monetize our attention.

  • Jeff’s Summary: "The central argument... is that it's not exactly [about] the medium necessarily, but rather the mode of interacting with these devices..." ([08:37])
  • Rebecca’s Take: Highlights the difference between "shallow content" (always existed) and "architectures actively engineered to prevent the kind of attention that serious thought requires” ([09:37]).
  • Both agree regulation isn’t coming soon, so personal boundaries & cultural shifts (e.g., “no-phone zones” at dinner) are more actionable:
    • Jeff: “Make it gauche to be sitting with other people in public and both be looking at your phones... Be the change you want to see in the world when it comes to your phone.” ([16:58])
    • Rebecca: “We don’t like that feeling that our time together... can be so easily redirected. So... practice with each other: if one of us is going to the restroom, the other one is not getting their phone out.” ([16:52])

• Memorable Moment: Jeff proposes a “ban on talking about things you just saw online” in real-life conversations ([19:08]).

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2. Big ACOTAR Announcement—Sarah J. Maas Drops News on "Call Her Daddy" ([21:10]–[26:13])

• Sarah J. Maas revealed, during a live two-hour "Call Her Daddy" podcast (166k live viewers!), that there will be two more books in her A Court of Thorns and Roses series.

  • Book 6 drops Oct 27, Book 7 lands Jan 12, released only ~3 months apart.
  • No titles yet, but the manuscripts are done.

• Jeff is fascinated by the “media moment”:

  “Announced at the end of a two-hour long Call Her Daddy podcast... put it in the Louvre for media history.” ([21:17])

• Meta-Industry Interest:

  • Publishing is abuzz about dropping two blockbuster books so close together, especially with a lull in other Romantasy series.

• Rebecca: “No one else has cracked that ball. Yarrow and Maas are it.” ([24:16])

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3. Audiobook Wars: Audible Drops Price, Spotify Competition Heats Up ([34:52]–[38:34])

• Audible has dropped its single credit monthly membership from $14.99 to $8.99—a major shift in response to competition from Spotify and other services.

  • Jeff: “This is a bigger deal than maybe a civilian might think. Am I wrong?”
  • Rebecca: “No, I think this is a big deal... Spotify has been successful in eating into Audible’s market share of audiobooks and Audible is having to respond.” ([35:46])

• User Experience:

  • The new lower price makes Audible’s one-credit model competitive with Spotify Premium (which includes music, podcasts, and a monthly 15-hour audiobook allowance).
  • Audible’s new 8.99 plan is "use it or lose it"—credits don’t roll over, which mimics Spotify’s model.

• Industry Impact:

  • Rebecca hopes this competition will pressure the industry on ebook pricing:

    “Can we do ebook pricing next, please?” ([38:17])

• Half-Baked Idea: Jeff floats the idea of The New York Times offering a curated free ebook per month as a member benefit, similar to what Spotify is doing with audiobooks. ([38:34])

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4. Book Sales Trends & Industry Data ([29:19]–[33:36])

• Recap of Winter Institute’s report (via Brenna Connor):
  • Trends: Dark romance, escapist fiction, dystopias ("Orwell was among the top 20 fiction creators in 2025"), and cozy nonfiction (think comfort cooking, crafting) are most resilient.
    • Rebecca: “Cozy and dark is not two different veins of consumption—it’s the same consumer. All of it operates in escapism.” ([30:00])
  • Indie bookstores are outperforming the overall market, with higher intent to “shop local.”
  • Bible sales: Hit a 21-year high (19 million sold)—suggesting “the people who are Christian are leaning into it more.” ([31:24])
  • Store innovation: Suggestion for bookstores to create “analog living” or “cozy living” sections.

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5. Audie Award Winners & Audiobook Narrator Economics ([41:54]–[47:55])

• Quick highlights from this year’s Audie Awards:
  • Audiobook of the Year: Sunrise on the Reaping by Suzanne Collins.
  • Nonfiction, performance, and full-cast categories mentioned.
• The hosts note the booming trend of celebrity narrators (e.g. Greta Lee, Michelle Williams, Blair Underwood).
  • Jeff: “I am unmoved by all of these audio awards. Have you ever picked up something because it won an Audie Award, Rebecca?” ([43:38])
  • Rebecca (on Britney memoir): “Finding out Michelle Williams was narrating it pushed me into I will definitely do this on audio.” ([47:05])
• Q: Do celebrity narrators drive audiobook sales, or just format choice? The hosts remain skeptical but curious.

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6. Book Bans, Industry Diversity, and Black-Owned Bookstore Report ([48:33]–[52:51])

• Utah Bans Four More Books in Schools:

  • New bans: Bag of Bones (King), Breathless (Niven), The Carnival at Bray (Foley), The Handmaid’s Tale graphic novel, Red Hood (Arnold). ([49:04])
  • Ongoing trend: conservative states broadly banning controversial/diverse books.

• Lee & Low Diversity Survey Paused:

  • Instead, publisher is focusing resources on combating book bans and censorship.
  • Rebecca: “There does need to be a hierarchy of needs ... we’ve got to maintain the right to read and share ideas so we can have a publishing industry to worry about not making it diverse enough.” ([51:42])

• State of Black-Owned Bookstores:

  • National Association of Black Bookstores report reveals:
    • 306 Black-owned bookstores (about 8% of indies).
    • 14 states have none.
    • Most report under $250k annual revenue.
    • Black-authored book sales down 14%.
  • Rebecca: “Cool to see data collection, activism and advocacy... you can really go on a much deeper dive into the data.” ([52:51])

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7. Frontlist Foyer: What Jeff & Rebecca Are Reading ([53:27]–[67:37])

• On Morrison by Namwali Serpell

  • Literary criticism focused on Toni Morrison’s novels, their “difficulty,” and resisting “saint” narratives.
  • Rebecca: “This is exactly what I want literary criticism to be. If more literary criticism were like this book, people would be less afraid of it.” ([54:30])
  • Jeff: “Liberating that the specificity of these great authors... we retain their idiosyncrasy and humanity.” ([56:11])

• So Old, So Young by Grant Ginder

  • A multi-decade, millennial twist on The Big Chill: friends, messiness, funerals, life snapshots.
  • Rebecca: “It really did deliver on Big Chill but for the millennial generation... set the bar high.” ([58:58])

• Heart to Lover by Lily King

  • A campus-to-adult-life story spanning years, centered on friendship, love, and growth.
  • Jeff: “It went down like a hot steaming cup of chamomile tea... true and tender... the kind of story about relationship and love I’m interested in reading.” ([61:22])

• Liturgies of the Wild by Martin Shaw (audiobook)

  • Mythologist’s incantatory blend of ritual, myth, religion & nature.
  • Jeff: “I am not sure I believed a minute of it... But I found existing in this mode did something to me.” ([65:51])

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• 00:00–01:13 — Pre-Show Ads & Banter
• 01:13 — Show proper starts
• 08:00–19:15 — "Books and Screens" & Digital Distraction Discussion
• 21:10–26:13 — ACOTAR Major Announcement
• 29:19–33:36 — Book Sales Trends & “Analog Living”
• 34:52–38:34 — Audible vs. Spotify Audiobook War
• 41:54–47:55 — Audie Awards & Narrator Economics
• 48:33–52:51 — Book Bans, Diversity, Black-Owned Bookstores
• 53:27–67:37 — Reading Recommendations (Frontlist Foyer)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On phone habits and culture:

  “Make it gauche to be sitting with other people in public and both be looking at your phones... Be the change you want to see in the world.”
  —Jeff O’Neill ([16:58])

• On the ACOTAR reveal:

  “Announced at the end of a two-hour long Call Her Daddy podcast... put it in the Louvre for media history.”
  —Jeff O’Neill ([21:17])

• On industry trends:

  “Cozy and dark is not two different veins of consumption... all of it operates in escapism.”
  —Rebecca Schinsky ([30:00])

• On audiobook pricing war:

  “Audible is having to respond. That market pressure is real and it’s good for consumers...”
  —Rebecca Schinsky ([35:46])

• On Morrison/criticism:

  “This is exactly what I want literary criticism to be.”
  —Rebecca Schinsky ([54:30])

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Tone & Language

Jeff and Rebecca mix sharp industry analysis with playful self-deprecation, wide-ranging curiosity, cultural commentary, and passionate advocacy for readers and bookstores. The conversation is brisk, sometimes irreverent, always deeply engaged with the material.

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For more, visit Book Riot's Podcast feed, join their Zero to Well-Read series, or check out their newsletter and Patreon for deep dives.

Transcript

[Rebecca Schinsky]

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[Jeff O'Neill]

Suddenly, out of the dark, it's appeared Bin Laden.

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[Jeff O'Neill]

Takui here and I'm Gabby and we

[Rebecca Schinsky]

are the hosts of History of Everything. A podcast which you can probably guess by the name is. Well, it's about Everything. Do you want to know why people thought potatoes were evil and would give you syphilis? Are you curious about all the stories of the terrible and stupid ways that people have kicked the bucket over the years? Do you want to hear tales about all of the different badasses of history and the lives of that they had brought to life? Well, if so, then look no further. History of Everything is just the right podcast for you. It's available on Spotify, Pandora, and anywhere else that you get your podcast from. Join us for some fun and just see how weird and wacky history can be.

[Jeff O'Neill]

This is the Book Riot Podcast. I'm Jeff o'. Neill.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

And I'm Rebecca Schinsky.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Regular old Newsweek Rebecca, we're back in the saddle. It feels like a lot of news this week. Was it just me?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

No, it does. I was looking at our agenda has a lot of items. Many of them have like real substance to get into. There was no like one big dominating news story of the week. But it feels like we are really like in the swing. The year has finally sprung, I think, and things are happening over on the

[Jeff O'Neill]

zero to well read feed. You can hear us talk about the book, not the movie because it's not out yet. Project Hail Mary by Andy Weir had a lot of fun talking about a book that we really like and an author that feels close to our hearts because we were there at the beginning when the Martian really took off and a lot of fun stuff gone over there. My local movie theater, Rebecca is playing Project Hail Mary. They just. It's an old timey one, don't be creepy. The Baghdad Theater and on Hawthorne here in Portland and they've got an old timey marquee where they like to hand change the letters and the person was out there with like the long stick thing and I drove past it this morning and it said March 9th, but I think that's wrong because that is till March 20th, so maybe they forgot the one, do you think they said March 19th for like a midnight.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yes.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I don't know what's happening.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Sometimes theaters do get like Wednesday or Thursday showings of things when they're really officially debuting on Fridays. That's how I saw Wuthering Heights. It's how I've seen a Colleen Hoover movie for this podcast. I'm going to guess that they forgot the one or we have reason to get. I know, get very excited.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I got very excited for a couple reasons. One, it's just sooner.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah.

[Jeff O'Neill]

But two, my birthday's on the 11th and I was like, I could skip the afternoon and go to a matinee of Project Hail Mary by myself.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I love this for you.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I started floating like Ryan Gosling in zero G. I got. It was so visceral, I got motion sick.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Did you know? Speaking of this, we'll talk more about it once the movie comes out, but there's not a single green screen shot in this movie. Speaking of the zero G and C, like they're cgi, but they didn't do any green screen. Lord and Miller really have some tricks up their sleeves. I have my tickets to see it in imax on the 21st with some friends and then I should be visiting my parents like the week after. My dad loves the Martian.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I mean, of course we all got together and said it's approved.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah. He has a story about having been in the hospital and like being awake in the middle of the night and that the Martian came on like he's, you know, channel surfing at 3am and sees that the Martian is on. He's like, it was so, so great. That's exactly what you want to watch and, and feel absorbed. So I think I'm going to get to see it twice in close succession.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I'm going to take my dad anytime. It could be in the old West. I don't think they existed in ancient Rome. In space, if anyone gets out a wrench to fix something, the dads, we all feel something on our neck.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

It's like the bat signal. But you just, you awaken just everyone.

[Jeff O'Neill]

There's some sort of hand tool has been operated and you got its own close up shot of someone touching, tightening or loosening or something. And I'm not even that much of a handy person.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

And it's still just MacGyvering has occurred. And now we're all dialed in. I'm ready for it.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Speaking of other special events, Kelly Jensen, who is an editor here, senior editor here, has an interview that's going to be coming up next week in this feed, I believe on the 11th. Actually, as part of Is that the whole episode or just part of that episode?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I think it's going to be the whole episode. She's speaking with Markus Zusak, who's the author of the Book thief, on the 20th anniversary of the book coming out. And so as you're listening to this on probably Monday, Kelly will be in the feed on Wednesday.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Zusek really ahead of the game of book related World War II historical fiction that has been mined and over mined, strip mined even to this point. A huge book, really. That's another thing where BR was getting started. Speaking of Andy Weir and the Martian, that the Book Thief was everywhere.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

It was, yeah. And it had been everywhere for like five years by the time book riot started. It was really incredible staying power on that one.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I'm really looking forward to that interview. Listening to myself, I don't know the story of how that book became.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Me neither.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Such a thing. All right, we're gonna take a quick break and then get into the news.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

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[Jeff O'Neill]

I knew how to pronounce this because there's a diphthong at the beginning of aon. I believe it's aeon A E O N co which is in kind of an arts and letters sciences website. They do longer form things. This got circulated in our company chat today an article by books called Books and Screens by Carlo Iacona, who is a University of librarian in New South Wales. So shouts to the Australians Got a nice email from an Australian. I'll share here in a little bit about something different. The title is Books and Screen and I'm going to try to summarize the nut of this and you tell me how close I got, which is essentially something like the following that people say screen time. Screen time has become this catch all phrase to describe our relationship with technology, personal technology. And the central argument here is like that is not exactly what really what we mean we're talking about not the medium necessarily, but I'm paraphrasing here and using my own language, but rather the mode of interacting with these devices, which is not only are you constantly interrupted by notifications or texts or other things that get you into and out of whatever you're looking at, but many of the platforms and apps we are engaging with are themselves designed to keep you from focusing on staying on any one thing for a long time because that is not the best way to monetize your time and attention. And one cool thing that Iacona does here is go back to earlier panics about reading penny dreadfuls and some other things to talk about how this is different than that and thus may need a different kind intervention. Rebecca Schinsky, I submit to you, how well did I do there?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I think you did very well. The paragraph that I highlighted as I was reading it says what's different now isn't the existence of shallow content, which has always been abundant. What's different is the existence of delivery mechanisms actively engineered to prevent the kind of attention that serious thought requires. And it's a really wonderful conversation in this piece about like it's not throw your phone into the sea and it is have architecture and maybe regulations around how these apps are built that allow us to have relationships to our phones and to technology where we can be literate in those forms. Makes the point that there are people who can't focus to read a book for more than three minutes, but they will listen or watch a three hour long podcast about a subject that they're interested in. So there is attention available to be used in a deep way. But it has to be that attention has to be turned on in a place where it's not constantly interrupted by the technology. And that if our technology were designed in ways to support paying attention rather than interrupting attention, or if we could build the architecture ourselves to do that, that's the way to think about it. I I really appreciate, I mean most of the time I as a human really appreciate a like it's not that the sky is falling take it's a that we need to reconsider how we've talked about these things and this jives with my own feelings about it.

[Jeff O'Neill]

That brick baby.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah that like the the app developers aren't going to make these apps any less addictive. And the phone people want you to have all of your notifications on all the time, but you can control that. And I thought the author of this piece did a nice job talking about how that's really the dividing line is people who have figured out architecture and structure for managing their technology and people who haven't and that it's not a moral failing if you haven't. There are all kinds of reasons that that's more difficult for some people than others, but that the thing that follows from it is not oh now we're in a post literate society and it's inevitable because technology is doing its thing. So just throw up your hands and allow the post literate world to happen to you. But like, let's have some agency and have an active conversation about how to manage it.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, I, I kind of went all the way. I horseshoe theory myself on this where I was like, yeah, I'm totally into this. But then I came back to throwing phones into the ocean for the following reason. No matter what you do, as long as you can switch between apps on your phone, this is going to be a problem. Now it may not be as big of a problem, but for me, I don't spend time scrolling what I do spend time. If I find myself sucked into a vortex of my own making, it is email to text thread to New York Times, app to something to ESPN.com like basically a desktop experience like 2002 style on the phone. And I agree that there could be something done about legislation. I would also encourage all of us to think about the reality of that anytime soon happening. Really. And I mean there is how to solve the world and there's how to solve yourself. You have a lot more control over your own self in your own world than you do about what kids in Iowa are doing right now. So I do think that contents collapse is one thing we all could use to put ourselves on the right hook at the right time. And the right hook for me is I don't see a way out of my phone being a temptation to bounce into something else anytime soon. So my strategy is put the phone aside. That's really what it is for me because there's too much interesting stuff on there. I don't even, I don't even need TikTok. Right. I can distract myself, baby. I don't need the algorithm to do it to me. I can do this shit to myself. So I come back around to anything that makes it easy for me to check on something else that I might find interesting or that is updated. I'm. That's a me problem. I don't think that's a technology, but the technology allows that to be possible. That's a me problem that no amount of legislation is going to change.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, I mean, the piece also makes reference to like there were people who have figured out how to like watch documentaries with a notebook next to them and people who read a paper book with a pen in their hand and like that. This is, you know, you got to put your some, you got to put your phone in another room or like, use the brick. Like you could get your plate, your phone, to the place where it really is just a utility to send messages to people you need to send them to with enough brick settings. But leaving, if you can, leave it in a drawer, Leave it in a drawer if you can. Forget where it is. Forget where it is. Like, I think it's just as you're saying, it's unrealistic to think about legislation. I think like, as much as I would love for us all to throw our phones into the sea, that's not going to happen either. So putting them aside, using tools to manage them, like building the architecture around it, and I love that that's really the thing that this piece drives to. But then how do we have a bigger cultural conversation about that architecture? Like, parents do this with their kids in many cases. Like every parent that I know has some policy with their kids about where the phones live in the house, how much time you can spend on the phone, what you can do during that time on the phone. And adults need to be creating those same policies and practices for ourselves with it.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I mean, I've used this metaphor for multiple years at this point, but they're attention cigarettes. And some people can smoke one cig on Saturday night with their gin and tonic and be cool. But for most people, the nature of cigarettes are not going to engender that kind of use case. So some people can have their phone and sort of interact with it in a way that's sustainable and ultimately sort of non harmful. But I think the median user of a modern smartphone is going to be like the median user of a cigarette. And they're going to have to marshal whatever forces they have at their disposal to put boundaries around that relationship. Right. Think of this as being a relationship with yourself, not just with your phone. What do you want to be doing with yourself and your time? Most of us don't want to be doing most of the stuff we're doing on our phone most of the time. I think that's generally true to a first approximation. And there's a temptation to say, well, you can't do anything about it. And that's just the way this and these are the end times. I think there's something between that and everyone should be, I don't know, monk like, and just be able to put it to the side and just sit there next to their phone and not touch it. There's some other way of being in the world that's more complicated than that. And I think that's where most of Us are going to have to live in that messy middle. And that's true of most things, not just our phones.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah. I mean, with my group of friends, we're having. We've had really recent conversations about it. We're like, phones aren't on the table when we all go to dinner together. The phone does not come to the dinner table in my household. But with a couple of friends, we noticed that, like, if one of us gets up to go to the bathroom and, like, the conversation gets interrupted, somebody might reach for the phone.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Oh, yeah, you're like Doc Holliday. Yeah. You can holster those days.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

But then. But then when the group dynamic returns, you can be redirected. It can be like instead of we're all dropping back into the thing that we were talking about, it's. The conversation is redirected into that article that somebody saw or the text that they received when they picked up their phone. And I was having this conversation with a few friends. Like, we don't like that feeling that our time together that we want to be intentional can be so easily redirected. So the thing to do is practice with each other. Like, if one of us is going to the restroom, the other one is not getting their phone out. Like, you know, look around and watch people in the restaurant for a couple minutes.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Watch the people on their phones and shame them. That's what will work.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Feel superior for a couple minutes. It's a good drug.

[Jeff O'Neill]

It's a good. It's really. I actually think that's more. That's a smaller example of what I think might be more powerful than Congress doing something. Because the practicality of that is the. The. Make it gauche, man. Make it gauche to be sitting with other people in public and both be looking at your phones. Like, start with you. Maybe be the change you want to see in the world when it comes to your phone. I actually have much more. I don't know if confidence is the right thing. I would put more stock in that as being powerful, culturally powerful, rather than legislatively powerful. Because legislation tends to follow culture. Right. It was a long time after we knew cigarettes were super bad for you, that you couldn't smoke on an airplane anymore. But people stopped smoking on airplanes. And then there were sections. It'll be like kind of a stage thing. I would be super interested to see, like, no phone zones and restaurants. You don't get to use your, like, you know, your coffee. I've seen some in coffee shops. There's some coffee shops in Portland which, depending on your Political perspasion might be the vanguard of nothing you want to be a part of, but they're laptop free environments. No tech, gotta sit there and do something else. But I think you're, I think you and your friend group are spiritually on the path that makes the most sense to me is that it is now the class to be on your phone, zombie, on your phone in public. Just. We're not going to do that anymore.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, I agree. Let's positive peer pressure each other and, and I think talk. Just talking about the strategies and like talking about what your own structures are. Because we don't have structures come available to us from, you know, big picture, from big tech, from legislation. It felt like liberating but like a little bit scary with my friends to be like, you know, it is like it does feel like you get distract. Like I come back from the bathroom and all of a sudden we're talking about like that comment somebody left instead of the actually meaningful thing that we were talking about before and nobody wants that. But until somebody named it that, that was the thing that was happening and we started unpacking it. It just felt like that was the inevitable dynamic. Like the thing you do is pick up your phone while you're waiting for your person to come back from the bathroom and it doesn't have to be that way.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Can I try something else on you? I'd be curious. You can take this back to the friend group and see what they think about this. Could I, could I offer a writer to this legislation of nine or whatever that you're talking about, like you know, your little cabal of the right thinking and right behaving. Can we also institute a ban on talking about things you just saw online?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Oh my God, yes, please.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Now if you read the full New Yorker piece or the full New York Times things on your phone. I'm not talking about that, Rebecca. I'm talking about I saw this thing on Instagram. I don't want to hear about it. I really. If that's all you've got. No, I don't want that I feel

[Rebecca Schinsky]

the way about this that I feel about people describing their dreams to me. Let's not.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Totally agree. Yeah, I prefer your dreams at that point. And friends, when I say that it's gotten very bad.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yes. Yeah, I, I wholeheartedly second this emotion.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Let's, I've even.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Go ahead, let's just not. I don't, I don't need to, I don't need to hear it.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I also would suggest this if you Want to perform the change. You want to be in the world, don't be interested in it. If they bring it up and if you have seen in it, lie, say you haven't. You're not interested. I saw the squirrel eating a watermelon. Sure, I enjoyed that. But I don't want to talk about that because there's nothing to say. There's no idea there. That's nothing true.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

And it's, you know, it's just harder with your own peer group. Like my parents tell me about things they saw on the Today show or somebody that they saw on Facebook. And I don't watch the Today show. I'm never going to watch daytime tv. I haven't been on Facebook in like eight years. So I'm just like, I didn't see it. I don't care. I didn't see it. I don't care. Just like on a loop. I didn't see it. I don't care. I didn't see it. I don't care. I don't pay attention to those things. Yeah, just. Let's do it. We don't need to talk about the memes. We don't need to talk about the. Did you, did you see the whatevers.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I don't need the clip of Benedict Cumberbatch talking about his. I mean, again, if you enjoy that, that's fine, but that is. Let's bring conversation back. Rebecca, that, that is not conversation. Boy, that is not something humans talk about.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Good luck for you. Good news for you about the things we've chosen to do with our professional lives.

[Jeff O'Neill]

This is it.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Rebecca back.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, we bring things from the Internet to people to talk about.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

We have read these articles.

[Jeff O'Neill]

We have read these articles. Anyway, speaking of, well, news, I mean, that we get our news differently is a separate kind of conversation. At the same time, the big book news this week is fascinating on a couple of levels. The headline is that Sarah J. Maas announced. I'm fascinated in the meta media story about this. At the end of a two hour long Call Her Daddy podcast is where she announces this. Now, I know that's a huge show, but I think Sarah J. Maas revealing this at the end of that show put it in the Louvre for media history. That's just a moment and I don't want to comment anymore about that, but I just find that very interesting.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

It is very interesting. Like Sarah J. Maas has been sort of out of the publicity cycle for a little while because there haven't been, there hasn't been book news. But she's got two new books coming in the Acotar series. It'll be the sixth and seventh book. One is coming October 27th and then the next one will be out on January 12th. So they're also coming close together and we don't have titles for them. But she revealed this. Yes. And at the end of the two hour episode, Just wild. I think they were recording it live. This piece in the Times from Hannah Ziegler notes that there were 166,000 people watching. So I think Alex Cooper's audience has a significant overlap with the acotar.

[Jeff O'Neill]

No, I agree. I think that's not a. I wouldn't have guessed this, but once I saw it, it wasn't a surprise, I guess is what I'm trying to catch.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Maybe the most interesting thing is that Sarah J. Maas wasn't on Call Her Daddy Sooner like that. We're this far, you know, into the cycle of the Romantasy TikTok. Boom. But yeah, there's. She didn't have news to drop, so maybe they waited until they had the news to drop there. But Acotar fans can rejoice. The most interesting thing about this to me is what it does in the horse race between Acotar and the.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I was thinking that was. I have several bullet points. That was one there. Thank you for getting your divining rod out to locate that two is they're coming out within like four months of each other. October, three months.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

October and January.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Just flipping the calendar. So these are done. Apparently she had done some soc earlier saying that the. The manuscripts were done. Rebecca, I swear on my children, if you had asked me if this series was over, I would have said yes very confidently because she was doing other series. And I. I am still. I was born in the 1900s, as my kids like to say that. Borrowing the Nate Bargettes a bit. I'm old enough to remember that person did one series at a time. And so if you were working on another series, it de facto meant you were done with what you were doing. George R.R. martin being the huge exception in many different ways. So I was genuinely shocked when I saw. Wait, there's more of these. Because she's doing the Crescent City and everything else. So that was my other. That was one of my other takeaways.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, I knew that she was not done with the series, but we hadn't heard anything about it. So, like, I don't think we knew that there were gonna be. If we did know that there were gonna be seven. I did not know there were gonna be seven books.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Only five have come out so far. Dropping six and seven so close together is a really interesting strategy. And I wonder how much of that is driven by, like the fact that we are in a Rebecca Y lull right now that the third book came out. There's no news about when the fourth one can be expected because she had so much difficulty writing the third one and it really threatened her health in multiple ways. And this. It's fallow period. There will be available attention for a big romantasy. Because we haven't had a big romantasy in a while and it's still just Yarrows and Mass that have actually accumulated this kind of concentrated attention for a romanecy series. No one else has cracked that ball.

[Jeff O'Neill]

That's a great point. There's really no. There's no third, third, or fourth faces on the Mount Rushmore that would get a story like this that we would talk about in this space.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

So. And a good book new like this is good news for the publishing industry for fall.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Have to be thrilled. P and L is just stretching its arms. Sales bump in October.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah. And then another sales bump to start the year in January.

[Jeff O'Neill]

The whole series, people. I'm sure there'll be special editions and the whole thing. I think that then my last bullet point for this is zero to well read. Book 1, October 2026. I think we have to.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Okay.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Don't you think?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I was gonna wait until the last book came out, but I'm.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I'm an aging person. Rebecca. We can't do this. You haven't seen. You haven't seen my cholesterol levels. You don't know. You don't know what we're dealing with.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I think that we will have to have some conversations about the balance of pop culture phenomena in the fall season of Zero to well read.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Because what else is there? I don't. You've been doing the.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

We also have a new Hunger Games movie. We have a Chronicle of Narnia movie.

[Jeff O'Neill]

They come out IP Month.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

IP Week apart. Maybe we will just have IP Month.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Also known as Hollywood. Sorry. Sorry, guys. Sorry.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Hollywood. So.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah. Oh. Back to Project Hail Mary for just a second. That. That jog. Something I was gonna text you. The budget for Project Hail Mary is north of $200 million, making it the biggest budget standalone sci fi movie since Tenet.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Oh.

[Jeff O'Neill]

By Christopher Nolan.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

It's bigger than. Never mind.

[Jeff O'Neill]

It's a series. Yeah. It's kind of a lot of qualifiers, but, like, it's a big bet on

[Rebecca Schinsky]

it is a big bet. I think it's gonna do just fine.

[Jeff O'Neill]

We haven't yet for zero to well read done a lot of audience participation, listener participation. We have this this is idea we're going to have. I think you've got some ideas for it. Maybe this is pick the IP you want us to cover. We give them Hunger Games. We give them Court of Thorn of Roses Narnia we might have to do but I I'm not going to let Narnia lose. Don't you think of the three isn't the one you want to do or am I wrong?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Oh yeah. I think Narnia is the one that I would put in for sure because Hunger Games Susan we haven't had any indication that Suzanne Collins is done with those. So I feel like we'll have we can just do the Hunger Games when we yeah, we can just do the Hunger Games sometimes when we feel like it or there will be continuing I think we're going to see continuing stories from the Hunger Games universe and we'd have another opportunity.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah. Anyway. So maybe we'll do something like that. O' Neill's Razor would like to raise its hand and just say how many Court of Thorns and roses are there? Do we have any?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I need to know. Like I'm more open to doing Acotar when when it's the last book and the series is complete.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Boy 2 and four months is awfully tasty though.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

We'll talk about it. This episode is brought to you by Peloton Break through the busiest time of year with the brand new Peloton Cross Training Tread plus. Powered by Peloton iq. With real time guidance and endless ways to move, you can personalize your workouts and train with confidence, helping you reach your goals in less time. Let yourself run, lift, sculpt, push and go. Explore the new peloton cross training Tread [e-mail] Spring is here and there's a whole new way to chai at Starbucks that's made perfect for you. Choose your sweetness, dial it up or keep things light. Add a touch of pistachio, a hint of strawberry or vanilla. Or make it a spring classic with lavender. Because this season there's endless ways to chai at Starbucks.

[Jeff O'Neill]

It's the Paradise Podcast. I am your host, Ryan Michele Bathe

[Rebecca Schinsky]

with my husband Sterling.

[Jeff O'Neill]

What's up?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Join us here on Hulu and Hulu

[Jeff O'Neill]

on Disney, where we'll discuss each episode

[Rebecca Schinsky]

with the cast and crew of Paradise.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I'll be getting all the secrets from

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Dan Fogelman, James Marsden, Shailene Woodley, Julianne Nicholson and Sterling Kelby Brown. Paradise. The official podcast is now streaming and

[Jeff O'Neill]

stream paradise on Hulu and Hulu on Disney. All right. Speaking of book sales market trends, a friend of the show, Brenna Connor, gave a stand up at Winter Institute about trends in book sales. Lot of interesting stuff here. Rebecca, what jumped out to you?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I mean, dark romance and escapist fiction are what's keeping fiction stable, right? Dystopias are doing well too. Interesting. George Orwell was among the top 20 fiction creators in 2025. And that I bumped on that language fiction creators. I think George Orwell would raise an eyebrow at that as well. But for Orwell to be in the top 20 right now. We talked about that on the 1984 episode of Zero to well Read recently. And then also sort of the companion to People are reading really dark stuff is that there's all this energy around cozy about cozy.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Right.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Comforting cooking. And I don't know, do you think these are. Are these the same consumers? Like reading a dark romance. Yeah. And picking up a cozy something. Because I think that's been my sense too, is that it's not two different veins of consumption, it's the same consumer. Because all of it operates in escapism. And you can move between really dark dystopia and then you're comforting whatever, but it's people using books for the same purpose.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I'm not even sure what else cozy nonfiction could do. Right. Because if, if, if the thread, and I think I agree with you that the thread here is escapism. Well, fiction, you can escape and go lots of different places. That makes sense. The further away the better. So the more genres you stack on top of each other, as Brenna says, the further you kind of are from real life. But for nonfiction, you've got to lean into the parts of real life that are quiet, that are insulated, that are not really part of news cycles or really have much to do with ideas at all. Because that could very quickly verge onto any number of things. But cooking and crafting, they are loaded with politics and ideas, as all things are. But you've got to really dig a few layers deeper than you do in a lot of other kinds of things. So I'm not surprised by this at all. I think there's a lot of people who like to knit while listening to Acotar. I just, I think that's a great point. A thing at all. That's not a stretch of my imagination at all to get There.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah. Other interesting note, bibles hit a 21 year high. 19 million units were sold and this piece from Natalie Opdebeck at PW notes that that's interesting because Pew research is showing that there's a flattening Christian affiliation in the US like Christian faith is not gaining followers. So the speculation here is maybe that the people who are Christian are are leaning into it more buying more Bibles and certainly there was a rise in mainstream Christian rhetoric in the media last year. So interesting to see that. But a 21 year high. Okay.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Indie bookstores outperform the total market which is flat high intent for people to shop at local indies. I think that's fascinating too. Brenna. I'm sorry Brent. I'm using your first name. Connor. That sounds more fish. Recommended that bookstores quote consider building analog living sections into your stores. Thought that was fascinating. Is you know can you make a little place where I don't maybe you have not just a non fiction section but cozy living or I mean analog living. Maybe that's a hashtag that's existing on TikTok that people are recognizing they're not.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah.

[Jeff O'Neill]

47 year old men like me.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

But you're gardening the same things you're knitting cookbooks. Yeah, all of that stuff.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Neither of us are really crafters. You do some cooking. If you had to pick up one craft oh what do you think you would pick?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I have attempted some and just concluded that that is not my journey life. I learned to knit really badly. I think this is not a direct answer. Like I would like to revisit learning to play the piano like that. Oh I played the piano as a kid but I quit when I was like 10 or 12. But I think that would serve the same role in my life of an analog activity. You can't be on your phone while you're doing it. It's creative and generative and occupies a different uses a different part of your brain. That's where I would go. But realistically it's probably learning to bake some other complicated thing. That's my daily zone. What would you do?

[Jeff O'Neill]

I have no answer. I just wanted to hear you say something. I have nothing.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I was waiting for you to be like cross stitching and be like please,

[Jeff O'Neill]

my eyes are bad and I've got giant hands. So any of the micro arts are not something for me.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

But I feel like if you learned it you could stream it and it would be the equivalent of like Nick Offerman just sitting by a fire sipping whiskey. It's like here's Jeff o'.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Neill.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Just cross stitching. You could just be monologuing about, like whatever you've been learning about.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Well, if I get to barking people now, that's a different hobby. I already have that hobby. You're listening to it right now, Rebecca. Which is telling people about stuff. Anyway, let's move along. I used to draw and I played the piano too. I was bad, but enjoyed both of them as a teenager. Yeah, I never just good to do

[Rebecca Schinsky]

a thing you enjoy but are bad at.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah. My piano I only ever got is like rhythmic typing. Right. Like I just kind of like got it. And my brother, who's an extremely accomplished musician, when he. He's six years younger than I am and when he first started playing, I was like, oh, oh, that's what it's supposed to be. Who has a predilection for it? It just came so much. I don't want to say easier because he put a lot of work into it. It came differently into him. So. All right. Oh, I'm so excited by this next. This is the most excited I've ever been about A$3 a month price drop in a product of all time. Yeah.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Multiple exclamation points from you about this

[Jeff O'Neill]

in the last couple weeks because we have been talking about the war for your ears that's largely being waged right now between Spotify and Audible. And I think I was not talking to you about this, though I may have floated it before where I wondered aloud to someone in a meeting in New York when we're talking about audiobooks. Like I wondered about Audible's interest in possibly dropping the price of their single credit audiobook selection just because it wasn't really competitive with. Why would someone pick that versus Spotify Premium? For all intents and purposes, that was my thought. And Rebecca, I think maybe I was on to something because they have dropped the price of their single credit audiobook to not just below $10 but 8.99. And I think this is a bigger deal than maybe a civilian might think. Am I wrong? What do you think about this?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

No, I think this is a big deal. And it does seem, speak to or implied in here is how well Spotify has been doing with this. That Spotify still is secondary to Audible. Audible has a ton of the market, but Spotify has been successful in eating into Audible's market share of audiobooks and Audible is having to respond like that. Market pressure is real and it's good for consumers. Market pressure is good for consumers. You know, competition is good for consumers. And dropping to 8.99 where you just get the one audiobook you can access podcast. You can download the titles that are in your library. You can also purchase additional things like it makes it more competitive with the Spotify Premium model where you get music and podcasts and 15 hours a month of audiobook listening and sort of, you know, that whole package. I don't know if Audible is getting new users like if someone sits down to choose between Audible and Spotify unless they already have an established like music catalog somewhere else. But this probably is a shore up against people abandoning Audible. If I'm Audible, I would have been really scared the last couple years about people doing exactly what I've done, which is abandoned Audible because I listen to about one audiobook a month and I can do it on Spotify.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yep. I also think it re establishes the buy your morals versus doing like Libro FM which is 14.99 for one credit per month. Of course, as as people know that can be a part of supporting your local bookstore. If you go through the hoop jumping that goes into it over there. It should be said on the Audible front that this 899the credit does not roll over. It's been a while since I was a standard member, so it's a user loser situation. Though frankly to be perfectly comparable, that's de facto what happens with The Spotify Premium. 15 hours. You don't roll over any unused hours there. I also wonder if they're thinking about some people that maybe are our Spotify listeners that use their 15 but want to do one more. Maybe they're a one plus ish person and this is cheaper than topping off your Spotify Premium for another audiobook.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah. And it's interesting to see these two services now are like trying to carve into each other's, you know, side offerings rather than just the primary menu choice here. It's. I'm so gl to see this. Like let's. Can we. Can we do ebook pricing next, please?

[Jeff O'Neill]

Who could even. Who would do the do that?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I don't know. Ebook pricing just has been out of control for years and I'm not sure.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I had an idea that's sort of related that was for half baked ideas. Would you like to hear it right now?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Always.

[Jeff O'Neill]

So you know how with this you get. I was thinking in terms of Spotify and I'm like what's the text version of Spotify? That was my thought of this half baked idea because what I wanted to do is someone to pack in ebooks like if and my thought was this. What if the New York Times offered you one free ebook a month from us from a curated library that you could read in the New York Times.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Well I love this and they could

[Jeff O'Neill]

get it sponsored they can get a cut of whatever but people they they're really good at digital experiences. The reading would be they they have a bunch of content they could do around it. I kind of if I'm in the New York Times I like this idea even though even despite me having it which you should discount your own ideas. But I thought this was kind of an interesting play on the Spotify audiobook thing.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah I mean the only knock on it for me is that I don't want to have to read in any more apps that I'm already reading in and like I read the news in the New York Times app but if it was there's a tab right If I were right if I were a normie reader who's reading maybe a book maybe a book a month and the New York Times had access to it like this would all the curated part of this is the way that you would sell it because publishers are not going to sign up for the all you can eat like stream your ebooks model. We tried that about 10, 15 years ago and rip to oyster we still miss it but that's we're just not going to see it. But I think a curated selection that you could read and that would almost function like Libby does like you have access to this ebook for a certain amount of time would be that's a. I like this idea a lot. I think it would serve a lot of rank and file readers. We're weirdos like this is not for me but no this wouldn't be fair. It would serve a lot of readers.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah well I was thinking it because one thing we have seen over time and shout out book riot deals newsletter you can sign up if you want where we curate we it's really Vanessa and some of the other editors we used to do it I used to do it a long time ago what the available you know kind of the best of the days down priced e books are and you can get really good books for A$99 in most of the e book places you want to get it you have to find it there we link to Amazon because that's where 90% of the people do and our technology set up to do that and then you can find it other places but one reason they do that sometimes is if there's a new book about by that author coming out or there's a new thing in that series or some sometimes they use that down pricing thing not just to make money, but to get people to pay attention to that author of that series so they'll go buy the new one. So I could very much imagine, say, the New York Times for September, Pachinko by Min Jin Lee is available to New York Times subscribers in addition. And that's really promoting American Hagwon coming out or something like that.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Or yeah, James Everett, like that's coming out in paperback next month. Maybe you do some promotion around it in the New York Times in the run up or some of the other Percival Everett titles that are a good companion read. There's I like this idea.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yes. So I know a good business practice is to give people you compete with both for mindshare and dollars, ideas that only they can enact. So that's why they call me Jeff Sue. The Art of the Art of War by Jeff sue okay, let's move along. What to say about the Audie Award winners?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Anything, mostly, I think just to shout out that they happened. The audio awards were given out this week for audiobooks that came out in 2025. The audiobook of the year was Sunrise on the Reaping by Suzanne Collins, narrated by Jefferson White. Other finalists included the Devil Reach Toward the Sky by Garrett M. Graff, King of Ashes by SA Cosby, Pride and Prejudice by Jane Austen, narrated by Lulu Raschka, Shield of Sparrows, Book One by Devnee Perry and Wild Dark Shore by Charlotte McConaughey. And then there are a ton of other categories, so you can look at adaptations and original work. Autobiography, memoir, Matriarch by Tina Knowles won that one. We didn't see a lot of action around Matriarch in print, but the audiobook did sound quite good. Best fiction narrator Then you get, you know, a bunch of finalists. Best nonfiction narrator, Blair Underwood narrated Lionel Richie's memoir called True Love.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Unbelievable.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, that's got to be a great experience, you know, business and personal development, ensemble performance, which we love, a full cast audiobook. And this went to the Correspondent by Virginia Evans. And there are like 15 narrators listed. So if you have not picked up the Correspondent yet, as I haven't, I think that might be the way to do it, especially the epistolary structure. What do you think? I know you just recently read it.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I think it could be cool. Very cool. I. I find myself drawn to. I was just looking at the production and sound design winners and finals. Like what? Besides a good narration by one or even multiple people would get me to try something. Like, I am unmoved by all of these audio awards. Have you ever picked up something because it won an audio award? Rebecca?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I have not. But I don't listen to that many audiobooks. Like, the reason I'm picking up an audiobook is usually it's nonfiction. And that's how I. That's one of the ways I really like to engage with nonfiction. Or it's a like, celebrity memoir and I want to hear them doing it right.

[Jeff O'Neill]

So I find myself interested that. But I also have never picked up something just because it was here. But I was looking at the production and sound design winner, and this goes back to an old Jeff Hobby horses. Hobby horse, which is how much do people get paid for this? Because the winner in the production sound design was a book called Dragon Day by Bob Prole, which is an Audible original, which looks like some sort of Paranobel Game of Thrones. But it's also Grand Theft Auto, which is a good idea for a book. I hope that's what it is and everyone enjoys it. But it's narrated by Greta Lee and Haley Atwell and Michael Chiklis. Like, what has happened?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, there's. We still don't know what the celebrities get paid to narrate it. Like several months ago, and we even talked about it on the show. Anne Helen Peterson interviewed an audiobook narrator for her culture study podcast and newsletter. And that person was a freelancer. Freelancer. And she broke down like a week in the life of an audiobook narrator and how much time she spends preparing and how much time she spends recording. Sort of roughly what the economics were. But that's a different. I would assume a different business model for a production company than you're bringing celebrities in to narrate. And we still have no idea what that is. Or like Tom Hanks narrating Ann Patchett novels. What. Like, just tell us, please.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Well, that one seems to be like a friend network. I don't.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

But surely he got paid for it.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Sure. Scale union. I don't know. Are these unionized, too, by the way? I don't know how that works. So I guess this is the free thing I want the New York Times to do. Elizabeth Harris, Alexandra Alter. Can you do a. What does. What's going on with these? What's going on with these? Because I know there's a lot of money being made. I still do not understand how this happens. This is also circling back to, I think the first time this really struck me like A bolt of lightning is seeing that Rosario Dawson. Rosario Dawson was doing the narration for Andy Weir's Artemis. So it's been a while, but that was the first like, what. What does one get paid for something? Like. And there was like pencil out.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Kate Winslet did what Pride and Prejudice or one of Kate Winslet did one of the big classics a few years back. Yeah, yeah.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I also have a question of does it matter for the sales? Oh, like, what's the marginal value of this?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, where the like the die hard audiobook people, they know the names of their narrators that they're into. I just did a piece in our flagship newsletter a couple of weeks ago about sort of narrator, the Audible Narrator hall of Fame. And one of the people being inducted into it had narrated like 800 audiobooks, which is just incredible. And those they have followers like these folks who aren't celebrities or they don't start off as celebrities, become celebrities within the audiobook community for their performances. And I think in those cases it's kind of like you're a deadhead. You're going to go to whatever show there. There are people picking up audiobooks that they wouldn't have ordinarily picked up because there's a narrator that they know and like. But I don't know how much that transfers from a celebrity.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I wonder what percent shoot us an email podcast book riot.com if you're the kind of person that has a. It will move the needle for you that Y is narrating something over Z.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Oh, you know what?

[Jeff O'Neill]

I'll follow the narrator.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I have one example that I can think of. I was going to read the Britney Spears memoir no matter what, but finding out that Michelle Williams was narrating it pushed me into I will definitely do this on audio.

[Jeff O'Neill]

So if it would have been generic, good audiobook reader that you didn't recognize, you would have just done it in print.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, if Britney had read it herself, I would have done it on audio. And if it had been like a voice that I recognized, like Michelle Williams, I would have done it on audio. But otherwise I was going to do it in print like that. Like the point of the audio experience for me in a celebrity. Well, in a celebrity memoir, like, is to either hear directly from the celebrity or have like a big performance.

[Jeff O'Neill]

And I think this is more confounding from the publisher's point of view because what you're saying is you are going to buy the book anyway. It's just. So do they care?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, maybe they don't.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Well, I also know that some audio departments and print departments have separate P and L. So, like, they could have won the business from the other part of the company and it showed up on one person's piano versus the other. And they went to the expense of hiring Michelle Williams where the company would have gotten the same number of dollars anyway. That's a whole other.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

For me. Yeah.

[Jeff O'Neill]

From you. Yeah. I just. I don't know. And books are so different. We've talked about this a million times. Each individual book is so hard to put into a data set because the data is not. It's all lumpy. Right. There are. No, they're not. A thousand Britney Spears memoirs. We could put into a double blind

[Rebecca Schinsky]

study and see if there were.

[Jeff O'Neill]

She. I think she's got another. She's got another volume in her. Did you see the news today about Britney Spears?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Is there Britney Spears news today?

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, she got arrested on the highway.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Oh, no.

[Jeff O'Neill]

And one of her representatives, like, I hope this begins the chapter of some needed changes. Like, oh, there's still Britney. There's still some shelves written there. Yeah, I hope so, too. We have a troika of. No, I guess only two of them are really related, but Utah's banned additional four more books from all public schools. I don't know. You want to list the. I guess maybe we'll list the titles for people there. And this is just something that's been happening across the country. But Utah seems to be more unilateral than others.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

You know what, Kelly? I think just Kelly Jensen, who wrote this piece. It contains the list of all 27 titles. The four. No, the four new ones are Bag of Bones by Stephen King. Breathless by Jennifer Niven. The Carnival at Bray by Jesse Ann Foley. The Handmaid's Tale, the graphic novel edition.

[Jeff O'Neill]

You gotta get all the editions. All the editions of the Handmaid's themselves. Gots to go.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah. Oh, and Red Hood by Ilana K. Arnold. So those are the new ones related to Margaret Atwood. The trailer for Hulu's adaptation of the Testaments is out today. The show premieres next month. And Chase Infinity, from One battle after Another, is one of the stars. I'm not gonna watch this, but if I were going to, it would solely be because of Chase Infinity.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, so there's that. Lee and Lowe, which has for a long time published a diversity survey. This has been an important. We've. We've talked about this survey every time it comes out. We've talked about a lot. Really? It came out in 2015. Right. When we're getting the show kind of started and we're the COVID The beats we were interested in, we realized we were shared, you know, concerns were going forward and they have, you know, they have limited resources and they are taking the resources that usually go to that baseline survey towards fighting, covering, book bans and censorship. They are a large multicultural children's book publisher. So they are, as you might imagine, extremely interested in book bands in schools because so much of them have been around diversity of all kinds. Racial, gender, national, religious, experiential of all kinds. I am sad they have to do this. I will miss that diversity baseline report. But I totally understand it probably makes. I want them to exist. So whatever they think they need to do to stick around, they should be doing.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah. In the statement from Jason Lowe, he says that as far as books for children go, the diversity movement is by and large in limbo in the face of extreme censorship that targets diverse authors and titles. Our first priority as publishers must shift toward continuing to publish and sell diverse books for children in contentious times. The second priority is to redirect the time and effort that we've spent on the diversity baseline study and channel it toward the fight of book bans. Makes a lot of sense to me. And you do just do have limited time and resources. And like, we cannot focus on like there does need to be a hierarchy of, like a hierarchy of needs at some point. And we've got to make sure that we maintain the right to read and share ideas so that we can have a publishing industry that we can worry about not making it diverse enough.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yep. Speaking of diversity, we're not going to spend a lot of time on this, but we wanted to point this out to listeners. This is a survey on the state of black owned bookstores in the United States, how many there are, what states have them, which don't. I encourage you to look through this. This is brought to us by.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Oh, I just navigated the national association of Black Bookstores.

[Jeff O'Neill]

That would be a reasonable organization to gather and promote and distribute this information. There's at the same time they note a couple of interesting things in the highlights. Sales of books by Black authors declined 14%. I don't have a time unit described there. I'm sure that's put somewhere else lower. 14 states currently have no black owned bookstores. Major geographic gaps across the country. 90% of these stores report annual revenue of under $250,000. So meaning these are not doing huge numbers. It's a PDF that you have to, that you get to download if you would like to download it that way just makes it a little harder to navigate on the web. Really beautiful presentation though.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Great information. Yeah. I was happy to see 306 black owned bookstores in the US which still only accounts for about 8% of independent bookstores. We have a lot of independent bookstores and the national association of Black Bookstores is relatively new. It's cool to see data collection, activism and advocacy coming out for them. So do check it out. You can really go on a much deeper dive into the data.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Mm, we look forward to seeing that. Good job. Check it out, send it along. It's time for Frontless foia. We both have a couple of picks here. Why don't you kick us off, Rebecca?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Okay. I am so delighted to talk about On Morrison by Namwali Serpell. I have, I will say I haven't read all of it, but it is organized by Morrison's novels and I have read a few of the big pieces. But then I had this realization of like, oh, what I actually want to do is go on a Toni Morrison rereading project.

[Jeff O'Neill]

You've already done this. You're doing this again.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

But it's been like 10 years, every 10 years, like a decade since I did my big Morrison reread. I don't know how realistic it is to do it in a compressed time period given the professional commitments that we have right now. But the the opening essay that Serpell writes is called On Difficulty or On Being Difficult, I can't remember which. And it's about both the difficulty of Morrison's work but her willingness to be a difficult person and to exist like she was known as being kind of haughty or salty at times. Some of that is fair. Some of it is the kind of criticism that's leveled at black women who take up up space in cultural places.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Whereas Norma Millie could just punch you in the face. And that was cool back in the day. Right.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

But Morrison did like insist on taking up space in a way that was really admirable and inspiring. And Serpell writes about that and how it's connected to her willingness to let her work be difficult and to let it not be self explanatory sometimes. And Serpell ties it to her own experiences in both in arts and letters and in the academy. The essay on the Bluest Eye is just stunning. The essay on Sula, like, they're all these are such wonderful, deep readings. This is exactly what I want literary criticism to be. And I think if more literary criticism were like this book, people would be less afraid of it. Like, that's. I kind of just wanted to go, like, high fiving Namwali Serpell for threading a really difficult needle. Like, Morrison's a hard author to read. There's a huge aura around how we think of her work. And then to. To go into these books that are hard and talk about the things that are hard and talk about the things that aren't perfect about them. Like, there's been a real surge in Toni Morrison. I don't know. Nostalgia and admiration.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Geography. Saint Morrison. Yes.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yes. Yeah. As the book has come out, Wesley Morris has a great piece for the New York Times about not making a saint out of Tony Morrison. Like, she was not and never wanted to be seen that way. But I just. I appreciated the setup that Serpell brings, the framing that she's offering for this book, the spirit in which she engages in this criticism, and then she just executes it like nobody's business. This is going to be like, I will look forward to getting to come back to these essays, which is really high, like, the highest praise that I can offer for literary criticism.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I read the first essay. I have a copy, and I will get to. In due course. I think I maybe will read Morrison again over the course of my life and pick it back up as I approach each one. But I really did appreciate that first one on difficulty. I've told you this story. I'm not going to tell the details of it, but I had a personal interaction with Toni Morrison that I wouldn't categorize as negative, but it's in line with the Morrison presented here. And I find it refreshing, useful, and frankly, kind of liberating that the specificity of these great authors and iconic people, we retain their idiosyncrasy and humanity. I think that's good for art. I think that's good for our understanding. It's good for our own empathy to realize that these are not saints, they're not perfect people. They shouldn't be perfect. And even in their goodness, they are specific and difficult to understand, as anyone you know is. Right. Why would Morrison be easier to understand than, like, your aunt?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Right.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Right. There's no. There's no reason that would be the case. And maybe you and I are also both in the. Let's us. Let's hold some space for the reader being asking something of the reader, the reader contributing something to a discourse. I'm thrilled by that proposition. I think it was a welcome corrective to the sainting of Morrison because She. I mean, Serpell knows better than I. She's had, you know, much more. I just had one. But I've the reading experience. I've known people who have known her. And I like the word formidable. And I think that's a useful versus nice versus not nice. Formidable is its own kind of word. And it's sort of beyond good and evil in that particular way. That's cool. You can find. If you wanted all Morrison's back catalog on thriftbooks.com you can find it 19 million other new and used books in addition to books, games. Any other things you can find there, Rebecca? Probably there are. We did this reservoir. There's a Bunch of Bluest Eyes. Beloved has the most editions. I looked at this quite a bit recently. You know, it's funny as the Bluest Eye and Beloved have become, I think because one is shorter. And I don't want to say it's approachable, but it's more approachable than some of the others. And then Beloved is the apex. I find it interesting that Song of Solomon, which, when I was a teenager, that stood right next to Beloved on Morrison Mountain. And I feel like it's. And you can tell by the number of editions, the number available. That's not the case anymore. So that kind of fun stuff you can do on thriftbooks.com, free shipping on orders of over $15. I just interleave that in there. I mixed it up a little bit. Not rather than the top. Yeah.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Nice little segue there. I did like it. My next front list, Foyer, is a newer book. They probably also have it at Thrift Books. So Old, so Young by Grant Ginder. This is pitched as the Big Chill meets Four Weddings in a few hours.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I remember this. Yes.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

And Jeff o'. Neill. I'm so happy to tell you it delivers.

[Jeff O'Neill]

We're back. I'm so excited.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Are back. This is a group of friends that we see across. Like, it opens in present day. We know one of them is traveling on her way to a funeral. We don't know who has died. And then we rewind Back to like 30 years prior when they're all in college. They haven't even all met each other yet. And it's New Year's Eve and we go to a New Year's Eve party and we start to get to know people. And then we hop up like 10 years later to another big event. And then 10 years after that to another big event. And then we see them all getting together at somebody's house, like on Long island one summer. And they have struggled through early adulthood. Some people are established in their careers. Some of them are having kids, some of them are having affairs. It's messy as hell. It is like, I read this on a plane. It is the perfect vacation book. And it really did deliver on Big Chill. But for the millennial generation, it's. It was wonderful. And this is my first experience with Grant Gender. I know you enjoyed his previous novel.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I did enjoy.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah. But this is like get the Gang Back Together, just Apex Mountain. It's great.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I've got a thought for you. I know, you know, a lot of people play the game of, like, what would you do if you won the lottery and had a whole bunch of money? I think I would be amenable to the following. I would buy some giant house on Long island in Montauk or the Hamptons somewhere. And I would make it available to groups of friends who haven't seen each other in 20 years. And I don't need to be there. I just want to be there the Monday after with one person who's delegated to sit over with a cup of coffee and just tell me what the. What?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, just get the debrief.

[Jeff O'Neill]

They're just. I just want to hear all the stories, all the micro dramas. I just, I don't need, like to actually see. I don't need a relational glory hole in the thing. I just want an after action report about what's going on.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Relational glory.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I. I find these dynamics, as you and I both find these dynamics extraordinarily interesting.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yes. Yeah. And interestingly, I rolled off of that into Brawler by Lauren Groff, which we're going to talk about in detail for the Patreon.

[Jeff O'Neill]

We should have said that at the top of the show, but yeah, we're.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

But there is a story in there as well about, you know, women who haven't seen each other since high school getting back together. Like, I'm, I am so here for this. I'm glad our generation are getting these stories. I will read every one of them that gets good reviews. But so old, so young. Set the bar high.

[Jeff O'Neill]

That's cool. I'm very excited about that. That might be a summer read for me at this point. I've got a couple to talk about. I'm very excited to tell you about both of them, I have to say.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Okay.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I read Heart to Lover by Lily King. You know, I love a college book and I love a long term relation book and I really like writers and lovers, and this one went down Like a hot steaming cup of chamomile tea.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I'm so glad to hear it.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah. So for those of you who don't know, it's a young point of view from a young woman, starting when she goes to college, kind of a loner already. Loner at a private liberal arts school or. No, it's. I think it's Wake Forest, actually. It's Hardy. I'm getting my. I think it's supposed to be Wake Forest. I context clues about universities in the ACC that have a Catholic bent. Anyway, she gets involved with a guy and that doesn't go super well, though. I mean, it's not abusive or anything. It just ends kind of ugly. But in the course of the relationship with that person, she meets this other person, Yash, who they have the kind of relationship you want to see in a book like this where it feels affirming and they're friends to lovers and they don't really know they like each other until they do. But then, I don't want to spoil it. Life intervenes and we flash forward to quite a. Quite a long time later in which they have the opportunity to reckon, reconnect, reconcile and sort of triage their lives and what's happened to them. I thought it was quite beautiful and lovely and moving and I think the kind of story about relationship and love I'm interested in reading. It doesn't have to be a romance. I'm not going to say if it happened, if it ends happily or not, which means it's not a romance. Right. That's the weird sort of. Of feedback loop of that. But I like to read stories about relationships and I didn't know necessarily where this one was going to go. And it wasn't like a. It wasn't surprising, but it felt true and tender.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah. From the heart, maybe not surprising, but I also didn't find it to be predictable.

[Jeff O'Neill]

No, I don't want it to be predictable. But by the end, it wasn't like. And then he turned out to be a werewolf or something, or an alien or something. Very strange.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

It's very grounded. Yeah.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah. So, yeah, I really recommend Heart the Lover.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

As I try to.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I try to mop up some of these books. Like people like this book of commercial upmarket literary fiction. It turns out I will like it too.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

People. And people are still liking Heart the Lover and talking about it. Someone I know. Sorry, I'm about to tell you a thing I saw on the Internet, but someone that I follow, who's not in books, asked for book recommendations this week and then started reposting all of the recommendations that their pretty large audience was giving them and heart. The lover showed up a bunch of times.

[Jeff O'Neill]

And I mean it has this many people have read that.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

It's great.

[Jeff O'Neill]

This next one was a complete dart board throw. I had occasion to drive up to Seattle and back and that is a. It's like a seven hour to eight hour drive there and back. And I often I do that enough where it's like I want to do one audiobook there and back. So I find something that's seven or eight hours long and something that I know I wouldn't necessarily pick up otherwise because I'm trapped. I've trapped myself. It's the audiobook version of bricking myself. Like I'm going to listen to this audiobook. And the book I picked up is called Liturgies of the Wild, which is an unbelievable name. The Myth that make Us by Martin Shaw. It's out from one of the Random House imprints. Good job Random House. And your display pages where I can't tell people where it is because I have to go through other menus. Martin Shaw, I don't know what to call him. A mythographer and storyteller who has spent his life making a career out of getting people to connect to nature. It sounds like. And this one is about going into nature, having relationship with nature and myth that are sustaining and then how those myths are to put together. And it detoured more than I was expecting into Christian stuff which is not. It wasn't evangelical. But he had a later in life return to the church, but an older version of the church. And it's very expansive in its understanding of this. But I, you know, drawing they call, he calls them ancient technologies of myth, ritual and initiation rites. I found it transporting, incantatory and strange. And I don't think in no small part as I was driving through fog. I'm not kidding, Rebecca. Yeah, I was driving through Pacific Northwest fog most of the way there and back. But I found it very, very fascinating. Like he does stuff like spends 101 nights in this particular forest just like by himself.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

The dream it just.

[Jeff O'Neill]

And then taking groups and teaching classes and thinking about myths and his own relationships and deaths in his own life connecting to stories about death and transition. I am not sure I believed a minute of it like in any particular way, but I found existing for a little while in this mode to do something to me. So is that a recommendation, Rebecca? I don't know. But I'm beyond ready made boundaries here.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

It makes me want to listen to it. Like, if I win the lottery, I won't tell anyone, but there will be signs and the sign will be she

[Jeff O'Neill]

just went and spent that. You're wearing a moss robe, coming out with a crow on your shoulder when

[Rebecca Schinsky]

100% liturgies of the Wild sounds like a Mary Oliver title. Like I was in from the title.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I would. I'm not going to wreck it to you directly because as you can tell, I'm feeling some kind of fuzziness about my own relationship to it. But I will say this. I would find your own relationship to it fascinating. I would love to know what you think of this book. And was I high on gas that was getting put back into my car

[Rebecca Schinsky]

somehow that I didn't realize or just high on nature? That's a thing.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah. Was I. Was I Kia boxing myself with carbon monoxide all the way because it was really cool, but by the end of it I was like, that could all be garbage because it's like essentially his own close readings of myths, which is cool, but presented as being the quote, unquote true. Yeah, I don't know, Rebecca. I don't know.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

That raises a little skepticism from us here, but I'm interested.

[Jeff O'Neill]

But what I took from it is I can be skeptical and also got something out of it. And I was totally locked in and thinking about it the whole time. So I think that's worth saying.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I love to hear that. Liturgies of the Wild. What a good book title.

[Jeff O'Neill]

It's an unbelievable title. Good job. Martin Shaw and the the marketing folks over there at some imprint of PRH that shall remain nameless. With that, we come to the end of our show. Rebecca, you can find the [e-mail] listen or in the podcast player right there in the episode information. Check us out on zero to well read. Project Hail Mary is out now. There'll be another one coming next week. Quite a bit different than Project Hail Mary, but a contemporary classic in its own regard. The Patreon this week we're doing a bonus episode and we're going to discuss Brawler by Lauren Groff, her new book, and it's a collection of short stories. There's a lot to talk about there. You can choose email podcasting. Thanks to Thriftbooks.com for sponsoring Frontless Void and be a good partner for many things we do over here at Book Riot. And as always, Book Riot's a proud member of the Airwave Podcast Network. Rebecca, thank you so much.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

We'll talk to you soon.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I'm Micah Sargent, Co host of iOS today alongside Rosemary Orchard, and we help you get more from your iPhone, from your iPad, from your Apple watch, from your Apple tv. All of it, apps, tips, clever tricks and the updates you should know about. It's informative, it's fun, it's full of things you'll want to try right after the show and have a few laughs about as well. Check it out at TWiT TV iOS. That's TWiT TV iOS.