"Well-Read" is Hard to Define. But Real.

Summary

Episode Summary: "Well-Read" is Hard to Define. But Real.

In this thought-provoking episode of Book Riot - The Podcast, hosts Jeff O’Neill and Rebecca Schinsky delve deep into the nuanced concept of being "well-read." Released on August 11, 2025, the episode navigates through definitions, societal perceptions, and the evolving landscape of literary canon, all while addressing contemporary issues within the publishing world.

1. Defining "Well-Read": Beyond the Binary

The conversation kicks off around the [08:00] mark when Rebecca Schinsky discusses her recent Instagram video about three essential books for being well-read. She acknowledges the contentious nature of defining well-readness, stating, “I believe in the idea of being well read, that it means having a grounded understanding of the literature in which you like to work and exist.” ([09:02] Rebecca Schinsky)

Jeff O’Neill supports this view by emphasizing that being well-read is a continuum, not a binary state. He notes, “There is no one out there punching a card that's giving you your well read license.” ([02:09] Jeff O'Neill) This perspective underscores that well-readness is about intentional and diverse reading practices rather than ticking off a checklist of books.

2. The Literary Canon and Its Evolution

A substantial portion of the discussion revolves around the traditional literary canon, with both hosts reflecting on foundational texts like Homer, the Bible, and Shakespeare. Rebecca Schinsky mentions, “I wanted to have more diversity on my list of three books.” ([11:57] Rebecca Schinsky), highlighting the need to expand beyond the predominantly white, male authors historically emphasized in well-read lists.

Jeff O’Neill concurs, stating, “I think the canon of 50 years ago is not my canon.” ([20:20] Jeff O'Neill) This sentiment reflects a broader movement within the literary community to diversify reading lists and include voices from various backgrounds, cultures, and genres.

3. Gender Bias in Children's Literature

At around [41:00], the hosts introduce a fascinating study from The Pudding examining gender bias in children's books through the lens of anthropomorphized animals. The study reveals stark disparities, with animals like foxes, wolves, and frogs predominantly coded as male characters, while only a few, such as cats and ducks, are represented as female.

Rebecca Schinsky articulates the implications of these findings, noting, “A lot of children's books have animal characters, and if you're reading children's books with animal characters, more often than not, you're reading characters that are coded as boys than as girls.” ([44:45] Rebecca Schinsky) This bias perpetuates traditional gender roles and influences young readers' perceptions from an early age.

4. National Association of Black Bookstores: A New Initiative

The episode also spotlights the formation of the National Association of Black Bookstores, founded by Kevin Johnson, owner of Underground Books in Sacramento. Rebecca Schinsky explains, “It’s an effort to pull together black booksellers and stores in an overarching organization that would not just advocate but also partner with other aspects of the industry.” ([38:48] Rebecca Schinsky)

Jeff O’Neill adds, “There's a surge in the number of black entrepreneurs. This makes a ton of sense to me.” ([39:42] Jeff O'Neill) The association aims to foster community, resource sharing, and mutual advocacy, addressing the unique challenges faced by black-owned bookstores in the publishing landscape.

5. The Role of Influencers in Modern Book Clubs

The hosts critique the scalability and depth of modern online book clubs, using Jack Edwards’ Inklings Book Club as a case study. With Jack Edwards boasting over 3.7 million followers on social media, Rebecca Schinsky expresses skepticism: “I don't think discussion does not scale.” ([29:12] Rebecca Schinsky) They argue that meaningful book discussions require a level of interaction and nuance that large, online formats struggle to provide.

Jeff O’Neill reflects on the influence of personalities like Oprah in shaping reading habits: “Oprah has done a lot for books and reading.” ([35:44] Jeff O'Neill) However, he voices concerns about the narrowness of such influencers’ recommendations, which often feature a limited demographic, thereby reinforcing existing biases within literary consumption.

6. Personal Reading Updates and Recommendations

Towards the end of the episode, both hosts share personal updates and book recommendations. Rebecca Schinsky discusses her progress with the book "Book of Alchemy" by Salika Jawad, highlighting its unique approach to creative writing prompts: “I just thought it might be interesting to just like shake it up.” ([49:01] Rebecca Schinsky)

Jeff O’Neill shares his experience with "Clam Down" by Anneliese Chen, an autobiographical work that intertwines personal narrative with metaphors drawn from mollusk behavior. He remarks, “I think it for me frankly it counts as a memoir.” ([54:00] Jeff O'Neill) Additionally, he mentions "How to Be a Living Thing" by Mari Andrew, critiquing its oversimplified advice: “I don't think you're, like, a good book to recommend.” ([57:02] Jeff O'Neill)

7. Concluding Thoughts: The Future of Being Well-Read

In wrapping up, Rebecca Schinsky emphasizes the importance of diverse and intentional reading practices, stating, “Books are one of the ways that I do that.” ([22:15] Rebecca Schinsky) Both hosts advocate for a broadened literary horizon that includes a variety of voices and genres, challenging listeners to expand their definitions of what it means to be well-read.

Jeff O’Neill finalizes the discussion by reinforcing that engagement with literature should be purposeful and enriching, rather than constituting a mere accumulation of titles: “What I get out of books is intimately what I want out of books, intimately related to the definition of well read.” ([17:41] Jeff O'Neill)

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This episode offers a comprehensive exploration of the complexities surrounding the notion of being well-read, advocating for a more inclusive and intentional approach to literature. By addressing gender biases, expanding the literary canon, and highlighting new initiatives like the National Association of Black Bookstores, Book Riot - The Podcast encourages listeners to thoughtfully engage with the evolving world of books.

Transcript

[Rebecca Schinsky]

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[Jeff O'Neill]

This is the Book Ride podcast. I'm Jeff o'. Neill.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

And I'm Rebecca Schinsky.

[Jeff O'Neill]

And Dog Days Rebecca.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Dog days.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Gonna be a little short of a show this week. Kind of picking over what thin gruel the bookish Internet has presented to us.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

What a compelling value proposition for right Stick around.

[Jeff O'Neill]

You don't even get to eat the gruel. You get to listen to someone pick it over. There's always a few things. Some of it's self made I guess. Before we get into that though, we are hiring a digital content specialist. If you like books and you know how say social media works and especially social video, you might consider it. We're building an inclusive workforce. Strongly encourage applications for women, people with disabilities, people of color. Apply by August 22nd, you can go to riotnewmedia.comcareers, that's riotnewmedia.comcareers to see all the stuff, including pay and all those kinds of benefits that sometimes don't appear. And you may listen to us. Maybe you know us. Maybe you know someone who works here. Not going to help you go. If you've got questions or anything else, there's information and contact details over there. We are not on the hiring committee. I believe for this I am. Maybe, maybe one of us is.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

But we cannot help you. That's an extra reason to do not reach out to me to get a leg up. It will do the opposite.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, so there's that. We are over on the Patreon. We're talking right after this about the Buried Giant by Kazu Ishiguro. Rebecca gets to get one closer to this is not your last to be a complete. You haven't don't have the unconsoled.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Did you have to do the unconsoled And I have to do A Pale View of the hills.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Oh, you did, you did. Artists in the Floating World. Okay, cool.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Oh, no, I didn't, man. I have more to go in my yeah, I have more to go in my Ishiguro completion journey than I thought. This is the last one. The very giant is the last one that I was like really excited.

[Jeff O'Neill]

The mature, fully, fully, fully armed Ishiguro there. Let's see what else is going. I guess that's it. Kind of slow. There's a couple. There's another cool thing over on Patreon that will be coming to the wider public sooner rather than later that is worth checking out if you're interested in this show.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

And I will say while we're in the dog days of summer and like there's not a lot especially happening in the world of books and reading. If you are thinking about joining the Patreon or you have been for a while, I think this is a great time to do it. You can do [e-mail] Book Riot podcast and when you do that you get access to the whole catalog of back content years now. So there's a ton. So we've got like book club episodes about specific reads. You get our seasonal drafts of things. We do the hottest book deals and like most interesting book deals of the quarter. Every quarter our hot list check in all sorts of fun stuff happens over there and there is now three years worth of it at the that $10 level. You unlock a whole lot. Plus you get all of these regular feed episodes ad free and early access to them so you hear them before they hit wherever you're listening to them right now.

[Jeff O'Neill]

All right, let's do our first sponsor break in. Get into it.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Today's episode is brought to you by Slow Burn, publisher of Kiss and Collide by Amanda Weaver A one night stand turns into a slow burn collision when PR pro Violet Harper learns her latest client is cocky Formula One driver Chase Navarro. She's all rules and he's all charm. When they land on the same F1 team, will they be able to handle the chemistry? Is the question. Now if you love enemies to lovers tension. Buckle up buttercup cuz this one night stand turns into a full blown workplace romance between a sharp tongued PR expert and a charming Formula one rookie driver. Set in the fast paced world of Formula One, Kiss and Collide scratches the sports romance itch. There's high heat banter and an enemies with benefits dynamic that will make you swoon. So make sure to check out Kiss and Collide by Amanda Weaver and thanks again to Slow Burn for sponsoring this episode. Foreign.

[Unknown]

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[Rebecca Schinsky]

This episode is sponsored by the Last Letter of Rachel Ellsworth by Barbara o'. Neill. Stick around after the show to hear an excerpt from the audiobook edition. After a sudden divorce, Veronica Barrington seeks a fresh start and answers an ad to be a travel companion. Her journey pairs her with Mariah Ellsworth, a former Olympian mourning the loss of her mother, a celebrated food writer. Guided by the mother's final letters, the two women embark on a culinary and emotional journey through London, Paris, Morocco and India. As they uncover clues, confront their grief, and embrace new possibilities, they discover healing, connection and the courage to step out of the past and into the light. If you love novels about food and travel, you're really going to love this one. It's rich with vibrant culture and stunning international settings. The unlikely friendship between Veronica and Mariah that evolves into a deep bond as they navigate unfamiliar places is also really wonderful. And at its core, this is a story about confronting loss and finding strength in the aftermath. Again, stick around after the show to hear an excerpt from the audiobook edition of the Last Letter of Rachel Ellsworth by Barbara o'. Neill.

[Jeff O'Neill]

So you did an Instagram video or a social video about three books to be well read. There was some conversation. I did a follow up. You did of. Well, I guess we'll start with the first one. I guess I'm not surprised that people arguing about individual books like if there is a list that you or a ticket you need to punch that has a list of books on it, be well read. Totally fair to debate that.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Totally. And I didn't say these are the only three books you have to read to be well read. I did say that some books are non negotiable for well readness. And I do believe that. I think that there are things that we need and I have not read all the books that I would think are necessary to be well read because that's all.

[Jeff O'Neill]

So you don't consider yourself well read?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

No, no. I think I'm like pretty well read. But there are.

[Jeff O'Neill]

So it's a continuum, not a binary.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I think it is a continuum, not a binary. And there are, there are just a ton. Like we're working on some projects related to some of these and I will be reading some of them for the first time. But this is a, this is a concept I believe is real. I believe in the idea of being well read, that it means having a grounded understanding of the literature in which you like work and exist. And so some of the comments on Instagram are like, well, can you be well read? If you only read in one language or if you only read authors from a particular time period, like I can only read in English, but I do read books that are in translation, that come from other cultures. I want to understand how today's literature is informed by previous books and how it's in conversation with them. I don't think you have to care about being well read. I don't think it's a should. I also said that in the video. Like I'm just saying if well, readness is a thing you're invested in, you can construct like a syllabus of sorts for yourself. And here are some of the books that I think belong on it. And you're right. Like the first response to any list of things on the Internet is what about X? This list is wrong. And that's fine. People had suggestions, people had thoughts. But the thing that I, I was surprised, as you were, as you stated in your video, by how many people were just like, well, readness doesn't exist, that's not a thing. Or that want to equate well read with. If you read books a lot and you like them, you are well read. And like I think that's a good thing. It's great to read a lot of books and I hope that you like them if you're spending a lot of your time doing that. But they wanted like to me, well, I don't even think it's. To me, I think objectively the word well implies a quality judgment.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Quality, yes.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

And just having done a thing a lot and liking it a lot doesn't make you good at that thing or well rounded or well, like, well read in this case. But like I am not well versed in music, whatever the music equivalent of that is. I love music, I listen to a lot of music. I can talk to you like down a rabbit hole about a couple albums. But I wouldn't claim that just because I have music constantly on in my house. Like I am. Well, totally agree.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I was going to use the same example, honestly, like, I love music, I listen to a lot of music. It is funny though, isn't it, that there's no equivalent phrase for other arts. Yeah, I think that's fascinating. I think that's fascinating. I think so. I was genuinely surprised how many. I was expecting quibbles with certainly specific books. You could have put the holy, the Mirpois, the Holy Trinity of Homer, the Bible and Shakespeare up first and people would have quibbled with that. And I am not interested in sort of a Platonic ideal of a well read. I'm interested in my own experience and like figuring out what it means for me.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I thought about doing the holy trinity of Homer, the Bible and Shakespeare. But I wanted to have more diversity on my list of three books.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Well even. Even some of the like and I understand why it's. It's a good. It's a welcome revolution and how we expand. It's not just dead white guys. But to throw Homer in with that shows how deterministic. Because he grew up off the coast of Turkey. Like it just. It's not neatly in our current binary. And that's one of the reasons you do stuff like this is you realize that your current epistemological categories are only that current and contingent and they can allide and break some of these other things that go on the Gospels, these are Middle, Middle Eastern. I don't know how you. How you square that stuff and that's okay. And I think part of hold what do we know? Well, I mean even though we don't. The authorship. Like probably yes. Just because who could read and write. But having said that, I think it shows some of the. The more recent critiques of the idea of a canon is what was being contested versus some sense of what those of us who think being well read is something we aspire to or we maintain is important and even that is, I consider myself pretty well read. I think it's a continuum night of binary. But it's also something that there's. It's like being a good person. There is no, you don't stay there. Right. It's an ongoing thing. Also you can't be perfect. Like you're never going to be able to do all of it.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

That like since you introduced the phrase like being a good person. Like I think we're both really careful to say I don't think being well read has anything to do with being a good person.

[Jeff O'Neill]

No, I don't think so either necessarily. Maybe a road to Rome, but it is not Rome.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah. Like reading can be an avenue for figuring out your moral.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Plenty of dicks have read a lot of books.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Right. Right. And I think that that's where some. Some of the rejection of the idea comes from. Is like that, that, that it's elitist to even suggest that the concept of being well read exists. Certainly there is privilege involved in getting to a place where that's a thing that you can care about. Like having a life that is set up in such a way that you can care about being well read. That you can spend A lot of time, like leisure time reading books. You can get access to books for free. The library exists. But having leisure time and the privilege to pursue this kind of thing, but because it's just a thing you care about. Like, that is. There are some pieces of class connected to that. And I agree. I don't think that that makes being well read or the pursuit of being well read a bad thing. Because I'm not saying you're locked out of being a good person if you're not well read, if you don't have access to those components of privilege that let you spend a lot of time reading. Okay, you have not read a lot of books. But the like sort of knee jerk response from, I want to say the Internet, but like the knee jerk response from the reading community in some ways that says, it seems to me that it comes from a place of saying, like, because this contains some element of privilege or because not everyone agrees on this thing, or you must be saying that people who do this are good and people who don't do this are bad. And I don't know how to say any more clearly than I said it at the top of that video. I genuinely don't care if anyone who doesn't live in my body cares about being well read. Like, I mean, I hope you do, Jeff, because it helps us do this job.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I was going to say we, we have some talking to do if that's not the truth. But like, and I, I don't want to psychologize, but here we go.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Podcasting. Hello and welcome.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I think one thing people bump up against with, there is no one out there punching a card that's giving you your well read license. That's not. That's. Even if there were 200 books there, there is no one to go to, right, to say you have passed the test that you get to do the thing. So forget about that a second. But I think as much protest as there was, I think there was some belief behind it that there is something different between reading a lot and reading intentionally reading widely, reading things that are difficult things you don't like, and engaging with them on some vector or continuum that's beyond like and dislike. Right? And so I think there is a sense that being asked if you want to be well read, that there are certain things that you should do or that get you closer that you don't want to do. People bristle against that. They do now. And I think it is related to elitism and classism of an earlier time. And I think some of that's changed. But I also think that if you've read, let's say there's a list of two. There's. There's a person that's read 200 books, category A and category B. I think those lists could be different enough that I would feel okay saying that person's more well read than that one. That's as simple as it gets. I'm willing to quibble about any individual argument or vector, but I think for me, that matters. And it matters to me, because what I get out of books is intimately what I want out of books, intimately related to the definition of well read. I want other experiences. I want to push myself. I want to be uncomfortable. I want to grow. And if you're doing those things, you're getting closer there. But part also is historical knowledge, historical awareness, artistic, intellectual, historical knowledge of tradition. And for me, that's part of my definition. And if that's part of your definition, then there are some things you're gonna have to. No one gets. I don't think any historian says, you know what? I just don't like ancient Rome, so I'm just gonna pretend it doesn't exist and not.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, and that's a great, like. That's a great entry point here. Like, Shakespeare is. Is ancient Rome of literature in a lot of ways that.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Well, ancient Rome is ancient Rome of literature.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah. So many phrases, so many, like, storytelling tropes and frames come to us through Shakespeare. That if you. You can read modern things and not know that you're missing references, but your reading experience is richer when you do have those references. You can love clueless. Like to go to Jane Austen. You can love clueless. Having never read Emma, I got to watch 10 Things I Hate about yout with two teenagers last week. And when I said, you know, this is based on Shakespeare. Right. They were like. They kind of ruffled up. Like, everybody sat up a little taller like it's Heath Ledger, and it's great. But also, like, this is based on Shakespeare, and I got to tell them about the Taming of the Shrew and that there are all of these modern versions of this story, and people have been retelling this story for centuries since Shakespeare wrote it. And you, again, you don't have to care about that. It does not have to be exciting to you. But there's a certain way of engaging with books and with culture that if you wish to be well versed and to come across as well versed, this is useful in certain rooms. It's useful in the Kind of work that we do. You got to do your homework. You know, like a couple film podcasts that I listen to will get similar questions like, what should I watch? Yes, if I want to understand modern film. And they do go back, they're like, you do, I'm sorry to tell you, you really do to go watch Citizen Kane. And I'm sure that they get angry emails about it as well. But I wonder if it really just is like so much sharper in the literary community because we have this term for it, that and this big idea of well readness that maybe people think carries value judgment or like moral quality.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Well, it's so related to education in class. I mean, that that is true there. I don't know that you can exist. It's very difficult at the very least to extricate it from a, I don't know, the Thomas Everett Pritchett book in Dead Poets Society. I think that's what people are railing against when they rail against this idea. And I rail against that too, I guess, to be honest. Like, the canon of 50 years ago is not my canon. Hashtag. I don't know if that's. Can we trend that? That's not a thing we should do. Not my canon. I think about it differently than Harold Bloom did. I don't claim to be an expert on Harold Bloom's level, but I think differently about it. Like, I think you to be well read. I want to have some graphic novels under my belt. I want current popular literature of a kind that has become phenomenon under my belt. Like, I don't think that's a different version of well read, but that's mine.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, I mean, and what's funny is that like when I do a follow up video that has, I don't know, sparkly vampires in it and talks about how that's essential for contemporary well readness, just an equally sized but different cohort of people are gonna be ma about that. Like, this is just one of those conversations that I don't need everybody to agree on. But I was, I thought there would be some disagreement. And you know, like, we make social videos and we want people to engage with them. And I'm not dumb. Like, I knew people would engage with this idea about well readness, but the insistence that that's not a thing and then some of the comments to your follow up was really the part that surprised me.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, I mean, it's, you know, choose email podcastookrat.com if you've got your own. I think I'm interested in if you don't think it's a thing? I don't really. I'm not interested in convincing you, nor am I really interested in you telling me why I'm wrong. I've adjudicated this personally. I think I'm pretty good on the whole with my own working definition and in life reading direction such as it is. But like how if, you know, I'd assume if you listen to this show, this is something you've at least thought about. You know, if you've picked up a book for some reason other than pleasure, I think you're reading directionally. Kind of like I'm thinking, right. You may have different evaluative criteria. But if you've picked up something, something for other than pleasure, you are using it as something other than leisure. And again, I'm not saying leisure is bad. I do, I, I don't. I do care and I, as an individual, I don't care what people do writ large. I would like if people read for things other than leisure. I guess I will cop to that. What a confession for me.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, she just a note what you were saying a few minutes ago that like if you are reading for reasons other than leisure, you're engaged often in some kind of work around figuring out how to exist in the world and you can do at work without books. Like I care that people do that. If you're able to do that through some other form of art, through volunteering.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Y fundraising, whatever your personal spiritual practices.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Whatever, like that is the thing I want from humans that I and I hope that we can agree that to some degree we owe each other and attempts to show up in the world in a better way. Books are one of the ways that I do that. But I care that people are pursuing that. If you pursue that through some avenue other than books and books are your fun, happy, like escapist space, that's a totally valid way to engage with reading. I'm not attacking you for doing that. I don't think you need to sit down and read the western canon. Like I never, I never said it. You know what I'm, what I'm remembering, Jeff, is that people on the Internet are always determined to misunderstand you and that arguing with them is.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I think, I think there is that. And you know, I think and we hear from people and I talk with people in my own life, that the modern world is as hostile as it's ever been to individual self directed, sustained engagement with difficult things.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah.

[Jeff O'Neill]

And I think being well read or I don't even Again, I don't think it's a binary of like wanting to read. Well, maybe is an interesting way of thinking about it is difficult. It's always been difficult. It's even more difficult when it's not structured or outside of a school or degree setting. And it's especially difficult with your attention. Cigarette, AKA your phone is always at your side.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, maybe I should have framed this as. If you want to resist capitalism and the structures and algorithm that are attempting to keep you married to your phone, the thing to do is try to engage deeply with a book. And here are some books to help your brain resist.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yes, very much so. I think that's right. I think that's right. I mean, even I don't know what my version of just reading for pleasure would be. My version of wanting something out of it in a different way and pleasure are so intermingled, I don't think I could extricate them. I would not be a happy reader if I was only reading the things that I turn the pages fastest on. I guess to define it that way. But I think it's also. I don't think it's unreasonable to ask people to think about their own relationship, whatever they do. Where do you meet resistance that you have to do something to overcome? Right. Because I think we expect that of exercise or saving for retirement or getting better. Interpersonal relationships is like there's a certain amount of discomfort. I think about this all this time when my dad was teaching my brothers and I had a ski. I may have heard this story on the show before. We got all our skis on, we're on the hill and the first thing he does is pushes us all down so we can get back up.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yep.

[Jeff O'Neill]

And we get up and he pushed us down again. Right. And then he said, you know, getting up is hard, but I want you to be comfortable getting up. Because if you're not falling down some while you're skiing, you're not getting any better.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, you're not learning. My skill says if you're not falling.

[Jeff O'Neill]

You'Re not learning, you're not falling, you're not learning. And that you don't like Shakespeare is beside the point in this endeavor. I mean, it certainly is. I'm not saying that you're wrong, but my definition of well read, and I think a lot of people too, even if they don't want to admit it to themselves, include some telescopic sense of historicity. Right. That there is some sense of this is a practice and a traditional, flawed though it may be. Compromised though it may be, incomplete though it may be, that has a future and a present and a past, and engaging with that past is part of the process for me. And I think a lot of people believe that, even if it's sort of uncomfortable and even if that thing is, you know, sometimes derided politically, and I think for right reasons. And I would do some of that derision myself, sure. But difficulty is a feature, not a bug.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah.

[Jeff O'Neill]

This world of which everything. If it's not easy and if I don't get it right away, it's wrong or bad, I'm gonna resist that with my dying. With my dying breath. I just.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

And insisting that works of art have value and importance outside of whether you like them or not.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Or potentiality for richness. Right. This is our old friend.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Right? That our personal, individual taste and enjoyment of something is a reflection of us just as much, if not more, than it is a reflection of that piece of work. And you go somewhere different when you start to wonder, what did the person who made this work want to do? What are they trying to say? Are they successful in saying it? How did they say it? What made them successful or not? What does this mean connected to other things? Are they drawing on other references? Like, spoiler. The Buried Giant has references to, like, five other important things in mythology. Someone is named Beatrice. Can you enjoy the Buried Giant with us on this Patreon episode?

[Jeff O'Neill]

If you've not read Arthur and Merlin, Right? If you've read.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

But if you haven't read Dante and you don't know that Beatrice is the person who takes you on a spiritual journey, you can enjoy your Ishiguru and enjoy your Berry Giant. But, like, I got more out of it when I opened to page one and someone was named Beatrice. And I thought, okay, I know where that's going. And a horse is named Horus, and that means something, too.

[Jeff O'Neill]

How are your ancient Roman poetry? You're more of a Catullus person, or Sappho.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I mean, I think I would lean more Sappho.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Catullus invented the love poem, so there you go. I don't know what to tell you. So anyway, yeah, we may be preaching to the choir here, but I found that especially fascinating, and I think it's actually an interesting transition to Jack Edwards Inklings Book Club. I'm of the opinion that you. This thing doesn't work. That he's trying to do a book club for thousands of people is not a book club. This is kind of where I've always been. Rebecca, is there anything to dissuade you that this is going to be different.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I mean, yeah, the things that we call book clubs, like Read with Jenna and Reese is just a celebrity recommendation. This is a celebrity telling you, here's a book that I've read that I think that you would read. And sometimes they make content around it that you can engage with. Jack Edwards, if you're not Familiar, is on TikTok. He's from the UK. He has like 3.7 million followers across the social media platforms. And so he's partnered with Fable to do an online book club. And Fable does let you do like chapter by chapter discussion, but thousands of people trying to talk chapter by chapter about anything. Yeah. They can't see you, but you're shaking your head so hard. I agree. I don't think discussion does not scale. And if you've been on the Internet for a little bit, you know that discussion doesn't scale like that.

[Jeff O'Neill]

There go the conversation we just had for 20.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Right. All nuance is lost. There's a reason that like if you are taking, if you're in a book club, those tend to work in person with like 6 to 12 people where everyone can hear everybody else and ask questions and engage with stuff. This is an interesting approach. Like the fact that his taste leans more literary and that he's bumped Dostoevsky up the UK bestseller list is like, that is fascinating. It's. That works kind of contra to some of the big, the other big book talk trends. But I think this will sell books and that is good for publishing to sell more books. I don't know. I, I don't know that there's much of a chance of like a rich, connected book club experience or conversational experience because that is, that is so hard to scale. And also I just need to point out now I'll get right up on my horse about this that we're having all of these hand wringing conversations about where are the young white men in.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Literary fiction and the person, the single most influential influencer. Right.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yes. Is a young white man talking about literary fiction.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Well, they're all hosting podcasts. That's my reading.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

They're all hosting. And, but also like most of his audience is probably not young white men. It's probably young women on booktok. And why are we investing a white, a young white man with all of the authority in this space about what is good to be read and what should be taken seriously that has, that's not his fault. But like it was notable to me this week.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Well, and He's a good. I mean he looks like a Jonas Brother. He's a good looking kid or a young man now at this point. And like the aesthetics of this stuff matters in this world. Like it would be foolish to allied or ignore that. That's an element of it here. I mean, you could use your power worse, I guess than what he's trying to do here. I don't know that you're democratizing and making it more meritocratic by recommending Murakami and Dostoevsky. Right. I mean, just spitballing here.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

And back to our previous conversation. One of the reasons that he likes the Fable platform is that it allows chapter by chap discussions so you can participate without completing the entire book. And like, no, if you want to talk about the book, you got to do the homework.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I can't get excited about that. Yeah, I mean this is the mo. I mean this, he is. If he's not the modern Oprah, he's close in terms of, in terms of a new medium. An unusual source. I'd be curious to know on a unit moving chart where he compares to the Reese Book Club or the Jenna Book Club. I don't know where those things are in relationship each other. Like our median result from a spotlight is maybe that's a Brenda Kalmer question. I don't even know how you attract that kind of a thing.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah.

[Jeff O'Neill]

But anyway, 3.7 million is not a joke.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

That is not a joke.

[Jeff O'Neill]

And it's a serious, serious situation.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah. And I do agree, like you, a person could use their platform for worse than try to elevate the literary conversation. He's sorry. Oh no, go ahead. He's just trying to exist outside of some of the other book talk trends.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I think Kelly wrote a post for us about Oprah's latest pick, the Richard Russo bridge of size.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Also a parade of white men.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah. And I'm sympathetic to that in, in a way, in a very true way, I guess with Oprah. I find myself feeling like Oprah's done more for reading people that aren't white than anyone who's existed in the last 30 years. This is an ultimate what have you done for me lately situation. And I think that's fair to some degree. But the person I'm not coming for right now myself and I'm not, you know, people can have whatever. I just found myself, not whatever night inside of me wanted to keep up on behalf of whatever I was like, you know, I know people are like, Oprah's at the Bezos thing. And I, my head understands that. But I was around in the 90s when Edwidge Dondicott was on daytime TV and Maya Angelou and Tony Morrison and William and then other people too is like, I just don't have the fight in me for this with Oprah.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I, I just say I'm mad at Oprah about other things. But the book club is lower on the list, I think is where I.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Don'T know if it matters that I like Richard Russo, which I do. And look, the perfect is the enemy of the good. But I just don't have it in me for Oprah to be like, I telling her what to pick. I just don't. She picked coats.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I think it's, I think it's important to continue like pointing it out and calling it out. And it remains important only because there are so few opportunities for books. Like, the Richard Russo book is also not new. This is a reissue. And so like, and no one cares, right? No one cares. But there's also like, there's this pressure inside publishing that there are so few spots and you have this huge platform, there are so few spots for new books to get publicized, for books by people who aren't older white men to get publicized, that the sort of parade of just like mid list literary fiction white guys is disappointing. Precisely.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Richard Rosso. How dare.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

No, not. But the culpability book is mid list. Like the last ones. One.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I would not smirch Richard Russo this way.

[Jeff O'Neill]

But it's, I, I just, I understand it. I'm not saying, I'm not even saying it's wrong. I just, my own reaction, I felt.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

It'S like, oh, I just don't have.

[Jeff O'Neill]

It in me for that for Oprah.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Well, and also like a lot of the folks who are in this conversation right now, though, don't have cultural memory. Like, a good mutual friend of ours who is a political content creator has told me that, like, one of her big experiences right now is saying things that seem obvious to people who have lived through several election cycles, but talking to folks who are 25 and either just voted in their first election or, you know, didn't get a good civics education.

[Jeff O'Neill]

And I've only been hooked up right, for like four years at this point. Their brain is only now hardened into something other than cottage cheese.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Some of that happening in the book space too. Like, we remember what Oprah did for books in the 90s and how significant it was to sell millions of copies of a book that is as difficult as Beloved is. And then she followed that up by recommending Faulkner, and people followed her down that path. Like every mom in the country at least bought Anna Karenina one summer. That's.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, that isn't.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Oprah has done a lot for books and reading. And maybe it also gets flattened in the Internet's lack of nuance that, like Oprah has done a lot for books and reading. And also this is not a great pattern. And also there are some reasons to be concerned about Oprah's current trajectory, but it doesn't negate the impact that she had in the past. I agree with that.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah. Anyway, I just. That was a late breaking. That was a cold take, like I just did. There was no takes in there. I checked.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I had to get on your steed and it just didn't work.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I just didn't have it. Anyway, there's that in August and we're.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Gonna get a lot of emails.

[Jeff O'Neill]

The Disney Plus Hulu HBO Max bundle plan starting at just 16.99amonth. Catch Limitless live, better now season one with Chris Hemsworth on Disney Plus. We got a lot of work to do. Alien Earth on Hulu. This Ship Collected Monsters and Final Destination Bloodlines on HBO Max.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Death is coming for our family.

[Jeff O'Neill]

The Disney Hulu HBO Max bundle plans starting at $16.99 a month. All these and more streaming soon. Visit Disney Hulu HBOMaxBundle.com for details.

[Unknown]

On WhatsApp. No one can see or hear your personal messages. Whether it's a voice call message or sending a password to WhatsApp, it's all just this. So whether you're sharing the streaming password in the family chat or trading those late night voice messages that could basically become a podcast, your personal messages stay between you, your friends and your family. No one else, not even us. WhatsApp message privately with everyone.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Jamie Lee Curtis and Lindsay Lohan are back to switch things up in Disney's Freakier Friday.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Totally.

[Jeff O'Neill]

It's an absolute and the only movie that can be described as so much.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Weirder than the last time.

[Jeff O'Neill]

What? Last time it's the Frequel.

[Unknown]

You ready?

[Jeff O'Neill]

We've been waiting for that.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Absolutely. Slays. What deeply out of touch old person came up with that? You did.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Wow. Don't miss the comedy event of the summer for all ages. Disney's Freakier Friday, now playing only in theaters. Get tickets now rated pg. Parental guidance suggested. I can't remember, but I thought the Obama production company already picked up King of Ashes. So this is another Cosby. They're picking up the second story.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yes, they're picking up all the sinners bleed.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Okay.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

And it's starting to be cast and it's going to be exciting. I don't. I think they should just make a first look, deal with SA Cosby and get it over with. Like, it seems like they're headed that way. Cosby's books have appeared on Obama's end of year lists several times.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Maybe what they have is good. Maybe. Do they have something in the can, do you think, for King of Ashes that makes them think they've got. I mean, I don't know.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

King of Ashes. So new. I still really want to see Black Top Wasteland. Yeah.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah. I'm just hearing what signal they're getting that they're ready to go ahead and sign another one when they've signed one and they haven't seen what it turns out to be.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I don't know. Pretty fascinating to see. Let's see. National association of Black Bookstores. I didn't get a lot of chance to think about this, but it seems at first blush like an interesting idea. Kind of surprised something like didn't exist already.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Me too.

[Jeff O'Neill]

It sort of advocacy group within an advocacy. It's not a part of aba. Doesn't seem like it's outside of aba, which maybe some people are, I don't know, feeling some kind of way about. I don't have a dog in that particular hunt. But it would make sense that knowledge sharing, resource sharing, cross promotion, mutual advocacy, community would make sense.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah. Was founded by Kevin Johnson, who owns Underground Books in Sacramento, happens to be a former professional basketball player and was the mayor of Sacramento for 2000 from 2008 to 2016. So really interesting career there. And the board is a mix of owners of historic black bookstores and younger booksellers who have opened up stores in recent years. And that, like cross generational, cross experience and expertise kind of sharing seems incredibly valuable.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah. An effort. There's a quote, an effort to pull together black booksellers and stores in an overarching organization that would not just advocate but also partner with other aspects of the industry. There's a surge in the number of black entre. This is not. This is the PW piece from. Is it, Jim? Oh, Claire Kirk. I don't know. That person's writing offered by the ABA serving the industry that these news bookstores might not know about. Right. I also wonder if on the sales side, on the publishing side, it might be useful to have an organization to, you know, get books by and about black folks into these stores in a Different way. That's easier than going hand by hand, going to their newsletter or a conference, these other kind of places. As the industry, I think mostly continues to care about this and finding new ways of getting books in front of people that might be interested them makes sense. This makes a ton of sense to me. I'd be interesting, like, what specific this is just voyeuristically, I'm not opening a bookstore, let alone a black bookstore, because I can't open one of those right now because the definition. But like, what would the. What were the learnings be like? How is it different for a black store owned by black folks to be in the world? I don't know. I'd be fascinated to see.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

If only we had podcast that we could invite them to come on and talk about this.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I'm podcasted out, right. I mean, I love what we do and I'm so grateful I get to do it. But today of all days, I'm like, I.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Well, we're recording shows in five hours.

[Jeff O'Neill]

It has to be a fall situation. First editions on a little impromptu hiatus. This was a. A piece I linked or I put in in our shared repository of interesting links from the Pudding, which is. I don't know anything about the Pudding. Every now and again they have a really cool feature for us and I realized, what is this? What is the Pudding?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

So I subscribed to it after one of their previous really cool features. And it's a website that does interesting data analysis and illustrations to go with that. Data analysis about all kinds of things.

[Jeff O'Neill]

All kinds of culture. So every now and again it's a book thing. Yeah.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Right. So they might do like, at what point does a series TV show jump the shark? And they will like map the episodes and be like, it's typically it happens in the fifth episode of season four or something like that. But this was this study looking at gender bias in children's books as or through the lens of anthropomorphized animals. So like Lee and Low. Very like well known does a study of children's book representation of the human characters in children's books. And we know that those modes of representation fall well behind current population levels. It's something. It's like 3% of all children's books have a character of color. It's something very low, even if it continues to slowly increase. But this looked at the animals in children's books and wondered how often are frogs referred to as he versus cats and dogs and rabbits and what's going on there? And there Were differences.

[Jeff O'Neill]

All right, so we're gonna. We've seen this. So. But I'm just gonna have the. The audience sort of. I'm gonna give them five seconds to think. There are three characters. Three. Oh, let's see. Three animals. Pardon me. What are there? 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. There's a Dungeness animal species represented on this chart. Three of them. Only three are represented more often as she, her, than him, he, him, three. Just think. Just think for yourself what you think they might be. And I'll give them an ascending order of she, herness. I guess in terms of representation, this is just whatever number three. And this looks like it. Like 55ish percent. Right. Of cats are hers.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Mm.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Okay, up next, 60ish percent. Ducks. Ducks. The number one most she. Her coded animals and children's books is just birds. I guess ducks are a subset of birds here. They broke out ducks.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

And the flip side, the most frequently coded are foxes at about. Looks like 70, maybe 80%.

[Jeff O'Neill]

80%.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Wolves and frogs at like 90%. So if you pick up a children's book with a frog in it, at least from this sample, there's a 90% chance it's going to be a boy. A boy frog.

[Jeff O'Neill]

And this good.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

It adds up to. Only three of these animals are more often represented as girls. So this adds up to. If you're reading children's books with animal characters, more often than not, by a pretty significant margin, you're reading characters that are coded as boys than as girls. And a lot of children's books have animal characters.

[Jeff O'Neill]

It's so many. What percentage of children's books are featuring animals? I. I'd say a lot. I. The. The macro finding of more often dudes. I guess I'm not surprised by. Because that's. I guess you're Bayesian.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Predictably disappointing.

[Jeff O'Neill]

The extent of it is surprising. I think. I also. I think I would have gotten wolf right if I was presented this. That the frog is more gender coded as a dude than the wolf. I've got no answer for.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I was surprised by that too.

[Jeff O'Neill]

And the birds and cats being more. Whatever. Whatever hegemony heteronormative I've sucked in. That makes sense to me. Air quoting here like, and the ones. Whatever inculcated gender dynamics.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Pigs are pretty close to 50. 50. Mice are just a little more coded male than female. I don't know what to do for us, but the pudding pulled this data and it is interesting and I wonder. I just. This seems to me like something people just aren't Paying attention to like that it probably hasn't occurred to writers or to publishers to think like, well, if I'm. If I'm talking about a frog, I should still consider whether the frog is a boy or a girl and, and how that might matter to readers and to representation.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Overall, 66% is it. You say the 66 and 33 is the. Is the break. Nothing about transgender. I should say here it does. It wasn't even a note in terms of.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, the.

[Jeff O'Neill]

So there's that.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

The other interesting piece of the study was that they also surveyed a bunch of just like normies and they gave them sentences that said like the frog jumped over the rock and then left it blank for the survey participant to fill in the rest. And then they took those as organic measures of how often did these participants fill in the blank that the frog was. And then he did this and then she did this. And the survey participants fell along similar gender bias that they more often than not coded these animals that would appear in stories as male than as female.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah, I believe. I mean essentially what I think that suggests is that the authors and editors of this who make the decisions have a similar gender sort of hierarchy chart, whatever. Like a taxonomy of fake animal genders.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Is like people who live in a patriarchy have absorbed the patriarchy.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Yeah. I wonder, I wonder if this is getting passed around in kids lit circles. I would imagine it is.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

If you have seen this in that context or had an interesting conversation about it. We'd like to know [e-mail] definitely.

[Jeff O'Neill]

All right, it's time for Thriftbooks because it's frontless foyer time. Thrift Books. Look, if you want to be well read or not, you can go to Thrift Books. I was looking. I may have had occasion to look up editions of the Great Gatsby. You can get a good copy cheap. You could even get say a 20th anniversary edition of Never Let me Go that has Ishiguro's wonderful introduction. Very inexpensive. I say that with no motivation. No, keep it straight. Because they have over 19 million books there and you can pick it up for a few bucks. You could get yourself. In the old days, you know, I used to do this zero to well read post. And the idea there was, okay, starting with zero, what hundred books would get you farthest down the road to well read? The. The oasis that always is in abeyance that we're never going to arrive at. You could probably get. For 500 books, you could. 500 bucks. You could get all of them through Thriftbooks, you know it's going to be a used copy. Maybe it'll be well loved copy but. And well if you spend 500 bucks you certainly get free shipping because you only need to spend 15 to get free shipping.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Not a bad deal.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Plus books of new the new variety, sometimes at a discount, sometimes cheaper than other places. You might buy books online plus DVD and Blu Ray and with every purchase you get close to a free reading reward once you join their reading rewards program. Read more, spend less. Thriftbooks.com Did I imagine that we talked about Book of Alchemy already? Are you done with it?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I'm not done with it. I think I told you that I had started it.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Oh okay. Do you want to give me your mid book update here?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, I'm like 20 days into it so for folks who haven't heard it's by it's curated edited by Salika Jawad, who's a lot a lifelong journaler. And this is short essays from 100 other writers and creative people that suggest writing prompts to help you develop a creative practice. Or I think it's even like a creative life is sort of how she gets into it. I know you listened to this and really liked it and sort of let them wash over you. This is the kind of book I would normally not pick up because I reject somebody telling me like what I need to do on any particular.

[Jeff O'Neill]

This is my seal of approval that you tried it, right?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I think it was, yeah.

[Jeff O'Neill]

That I was like, oh, how'd I do it?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Like you made it sound more interesting and complex than I thought it looked on first blush. And that's. That is true. Like I am a committed journaler. I part of my morning routine. But I was feeling a little bit just sort of like in the rut about how. How routine that really had become. And I'm working on a little creative writing for the first time in a while like outside of what we do at Book Riot. And I just thought it might be interesting to just like shake it up.

[Jeff O'Neill]

So you actually did some shit with it. You weren't like me who just drive by Reddit.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yes. Of the 20 that I've read through so far, I think I only skipped one. Oh really?

[Jeff O'Neill]

Good for you.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

And it's been very interesting to hear to get just a page and a half or so of someone's perspective or a story or a tool that's useful to them. How they use this tool in their writing and then the prompt is more a kind of exercise than it is the like, like the writing prompts I encountered, at least in school, which were like, imagine a story about xyz and like that is not a thing I'm interested in. But something like pick five images from your day yesterday and write all of the senses.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I was gonna say which one has been the most interesting to complete if you don't mind sharing.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

That one was really interesting. The like pick some images from your day yesterday and then if you were trying to say write an essay about an experience, you could pick images from that experience that you had and try to flesh them out with sensory details. There was one to set a timer for five minutes and write with your non dominant hand and just see what comes out when you have to go that slowly. One that was useful was start your entry with I don't want to write about X and then take yourself down the path. Some have been like. Some of them have resonated more for me than not. Like I'm a pretty verbal person. I'm not a big like imagery artistic person. And so the ones that have leaned.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Early discussion about art.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah, right. Yeah, those have been less. Less engaging for me. But I really do appreciate the variety of them and I think if you're interested like in some kind of writing practice in a journaling in having journaling be part of your life in some way. Like I find it a great way to organize my brain and now I feel like I'm just getting a few more interesting. Like there's a hundred of these and if I end up with three or five of them that I take out of the book and will use consistently into the future, that feels like a good hit rate. So good recommendation. Jeff o'. Neill.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Great. I'm glad, I'm so glad you're actually doing something with it. I feel like those books are kind of like cookbooks. Like I'd love to know if I could get to the court of truth what percent of people actually responded to a single prompt. Yeah, for those of you who I don't know how many people are like me, but I found just the explanations of how they got to the prompt interesting. So I didn't. Even if it didn't have the prompts, I would be just a much of an advocate for it. That's cool. I was in Pals yesterday. I saw two people picking it off the shelf. So I don't know.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

It's really thoughtful. I like it.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Really cool. I got two been doing some work related reading which people hear more about, but two that were just because clam down By Anneliese Chen. Have you heard of this book?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I have not.

[Jeff O'Neill]

So it's a. It's auto fiction. But the. The. I guess almost the prompt for this was this writer. She's a writer I think teaching at Columbia at the time of this book's creation. Going through a divorce. Things aren't going well. And her mom had a couple of times, I think this got this right. Had texted her to clam down when she meant calm down. A good typhoon that. That precipitated through. Through mechanisms in chronology. Don't remember. Sort of an interest in the idea of mollusks and clamming up and clams. Right. And she. It's auto fiction. So it's about her life and yet some things have been changed. It feels much more memoir than autofiction. To be honest though, I listened the end where she talks about what she's changed. I think it for me frankly it counts as a memoir. But then she writes about herself as the clam and kind of a weird third person and investigates what clams do and how they live and like the virtues of mollus. But also then as a metaphor for. In the virtue. And like you know, during COVID you might understand there was some clam like behavior we all engaged in. But then also her. It really became. The most interesting part to me is a third person portrait of her father who her parents came from Taiwan, immigrated and made a life. And he was a computer programmer and his. I don't remember the second word but his program he tried to make and it didn't be a success was called a shell program, interestingly so it also like these weird threads that she would find and that one chapter is written from the perspective of Asian clams which were a quote unquote invasive species in the Southwest brought over around the time of the gold rush by we think Chinese workers who brought stuff they wanted to eat and they out competed other clams. And so like. Like the racial coding of Asian clams is not something I'd ever thought about before. But it was in there. I liked it. I think, I don't know. This is now a thing where I have this hammer so everything is a nail. I don't think I needed the part where she's explicitly talking about how this book is not or not related to Kafka's Metamorphosis. Right. Like maybe this is going back to the well read thing. Maybe I give too much credence to people. Like someone turning into a cockroach is like turning into an animal and thinking about Themselves as a cockroach is a thing that's like, on the top. I mean, of the literary references you could make, even if people never read it. I think a lot of people know that there's a thing about. And maybe they even know it's Kaka. They may not as Gregor Samsa, but they mean. But like this idea that there is a famous short story novella. I don't know how you want to do this. Of someone turning into a bug. Right. And like, that's a thing. I didn't need that. Like, let me do my own. Is this or not? Like Kafka. I don't. So I don't like. There's a little more on strange of an idea. Yes.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Author strange.

[Jeff O'Neill]

An idea worth it. Like you. There's a little too much putting a hat on a hat. Just be weird. Write the weird book. I mean, I've picked up your book about writing from you as if you're not and a clam at the same time. But not. I don't need to be. Yeah, right. I don't need. Just let. I'm with you, man. I don't need to. But I enjoyed it. It was different. It was a bit of a whim read. So there's.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Where did you find this.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Catalog review?

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Okay.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I don't remember what. It's one world. I always pay attention to one world.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Yeah.

[Jeff O'Neill]

The other one I picked up is how to Be a Living Thing by Mari Andrew. And I really like the hook of this. This book didn't ultimately work for me very well. I think I've done too many animal behavior books, and I know kind of most of the anecdotes. And like, each one, it's like, a cool setup. I think of, like, using lessons from animal life to, like, be more of a human. Right. Like, shed some of the stuff civilization makes us or forces to do and engage your animal humanness. And, like, think about what. You know, orcas don't do very well in captivity, so get out of the house. This is a very oversimplification.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

I see.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Bears will rest. Her cat doesn't think about licking her butt. So why do you think so much about how your body looks in the world? Right.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Okay. Like, I was really concerned about where that was going.

[Jeff O'Neill]

I mean, listen, I'm always concerned. That's. That's. That's the problem. And on their own, each one was okay. I think what I needed is, like, more science than sort of observational stuff. It was okay. Not a huge demerit. I'm not going to go out and recommend it. I thought my my mom might have liked this, Ames might have liked this, but it's not going to move on to the recommendation itself. So that's how to Be a Living Thing by Mari Andrew Yeah, that's it. Bookright.com Listen choose an email podcastookright.com Be nice, generous, helpful, constructive.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

You can apply to be our Digital content specialist at riotnewmedia.com/careers. And as always, you can find all the titles we talked about in frontless [e-mail] BRpodcast and this podcast is a.

[Jeff O'Neill]

Proud member of the Airway Podcast Network. Until then, thanks, Rebecca. We'll talk to you all soon.

[Rebecca Schinsky]

Thanks so much for listening today. We hope you'll enjoy this audiobook Excerpt of the Last Letter of Rachel Ellsworth.

[Unknown]

By Barbara o' Neill On Thanksgiving night, Mariah Ellsworth ate chicken noodle soup and a grilled cheese sandwich. Her mother, a gourmet before the word foodie was invented, had hated the holiday. She'd said it was filled with overcooked meat, over sweetened everything, badly cooked vegetables and sloppy potatoes. She liked to skip it in protest, and whenever Mariah happened to be home, they'd spent it watching the rich historical dramas her mother loved. She was making tea in her mother's cavernous kitchen when her phone dinged with an email notification. It was on the table in the dining room, approximately 50 million steps away, so she'd just pick it up on her way through. The house was freezing. It was always freezing, a fact she'd complained about before, and now it was even worse. Her mother used to tell her to put on more clothes and stop complaining. For a snowboarder, you're awfully sensitive to cold. Her retort had always been that she had the right gear to stay warm on the slopes. A person shouldn't have to wear insulated pants inside a house. To counter the cold and the emptiness of the day, she'd built a fire in the sitting room. Now she hobbled through the hallway, leaning on her cane, tea in the other hand. All the lights downstairs still burned, but she couldn't be bothered to turn them off. Actually, the truth was, she never turned off most of the lights. Being alone in the house scared her. The noises, the dark rooms upstairs, her mother's bedroom barely touched since her death. A lamp burned beside the bed all the time, as if awaiting Rachel's imminent return. Now, settled by the crackling fire, her bad leg facing the nourishing flames, she opened the email app, her interest perked up when she saw that the subject line said LinkedIn from veronicabarringtonimelink.com 2mariawindsaathletes.com re LinkedIn travel companion I saw your job opening on LinkedIn and I would be very interested in the position. I haven't traveled extensively, but I am fluent in French and I have degrees in history and women's studies from cu and I love research. As for the physical requirements, while I'm not going to be running the Leadville 100 anytime soon or ever, I keep up a regular walking and hiking habit. Stairs are not a problem, and I'm well versed in the organizational challenges of packing. I'm currently at a bit of a crossroads and would especially love to be out of the country at Christmas. You can reach me at 303-555-7412 anytime, Veronica A little whip of excitement jolted her. She'd been sure she'd have to cancel the trip, that it would be impossible to find anyone on such short notice. Originally, her Aunt Jill had been planning to accompany Mariah, but three days ago her husband had suffered a serious heart attack. Understandably, Jill could not go. But understanding didn't dampen Mariah's devastation. There was no way she could manage the trip herself. Jill had been the one to suggest advertising on LinkedIn. She texted immediately, hi, Veronica, Mariah here. I got your email. The trip starts soon, so I'd like to meet with you tomorrow if you can. I don't drive, so you'd have to come to me in Cherry Creek. Is that possible? Yes. Name the time and I'll be there. I'm in Boulder, so I would rather set out after rush hour. Mariah typed in the address then. Awesome. I'll see you around 11. You have a current passport? Yep. Already checked the expiration. See you then. Thanks. Mariah dropped the phone on the table, then picked it up and texted her aunt, I have a lead on a person to go with me. How do I make sure she's right? And then how is Uncle Mike? No response. Mariah sipped her mint tea, remembering when she and her mother had visited Morocco the first time they'd drunk from small, beautiful glasses in a Riad that was covered ceiling to floor with blue tiles.