B (3:19)

Figuratively.

C (3:20)

Yeah, right.

A (3:21)

And.

C (3:21)

And I take care of it. But that's what the word caretaker for me means, is that it's my responsibility to shepherd it into an authentic provider of books for our community and one that celebrates not only the stories that are being published that I love, but the ones that others love and that. And the stories that come to us right on a daily basis, just the personal stories and the curiosities that lead people to want to read a book, which often can be just such a humbling and, and, and beautiful experience, to be invited into a time in a. Either a young person, a middle aged person, any. Anybody's life, when they need a story to carry them through a. A transition in their own life.

A (4:05)

How long have you been. How long? I. I don't know as much about the story. I know, Hannah. This is closer to you. How long have you been around?

C (4:12)

So we'll be celebrating our 18th anniversary as a operating bookstore, but our journey and our growth has been a unique one. We were founded as only bookstore, so Bookbug is our founding name. And we were founded on the heels of what is the Kalamazoo promise, which is a famous and groundbreaking promise that was made to all of the public school attending children in Kalamazoo that their higher education would be paid for. And my dream of opening a bookstore was inspired, inspired before that, but it certainly was fueled by a community saying to its young people, you matter. Your financial circumstances should not inhibit your goal to achieve higher education and your curiosities and your growth. We are invested in that. So I wanted to provide a space where children could see themselves, could find stories, could see in physical form the beauty of children's books especially. So our history is very much informed by my own passion for children's book and books and where I was at that point in my life. Our growth and our extension with this Is a Bookstore and in our broader space at this is a Bookstore with our cafe was an affirmation of what had always been my hope, too, to provide books for all readers, to provide a meaningful gathering place that could host author events and conversations around books, and could enable me to read both children's books in for Bookbug and my buying for Bookbug, and to read what I had always been reading alongside my life's journey, which is primarily contemporary fiction, narrative nonfiction that really met me where I was in my life. So that's the short, long answer to who we are and what our history is.

B (6:03)

No, I love that you did such a good job giving us an idea and setting that all up. I did not know that. That this is a bookstore and bookbug was kind of originally the foundation of that was the Kalamazoo Promise. I didn't know that. That's such a cool piece of historical information about your store.

A (6:21)

And also, Joanna, we. Hannah and I don't often do interviews, so, I mean, maybe it's obvious to you, but we are sort of also learning the ropes, too. Normally, it's just us cackling to one another. So if at some point we are pausing, it's because I'm like, okay, trying to make space for Hannah, you know, that sort of thing. So we are. Even though it's been five years of the podcast, I'm still learning how to do this. So in case you're like, what are they doing? It's us trying to get our cadence correct.

B (6:48)

A new segment to the show.

C (6:50)

So beautiful.

A (6:51)

I love it.

B (6:52)

Okay, good.

A (6:52)

Well, I appreciate you sharing that. Yes. And I had not heard of the Kalamazoo Promise. That's definitely something I want to look into. I'm in Chicago. We have so many great indies here. But this is a part of why we wanted to do this segment on our main show. It's something we had for our patrons all of last year. We've been talking to booksellers, and we really wanted to try and bring these special and unique stores nationwide and even, you know, worldwide. We have a lot of listeners that are not in the US as well, and I think it's just so great that we're able to give this exposure. And I actually really appreciate you all. You all DMed us. I don't know if it was you or your business partner. Do you remember how you heard about book talk, et cetera?

C (7:30)

So, Alice, who's A recent bookseller for us, but super avid reader and an avid listener of podcasts. Not just book talking podcasts, but science podcasts, all sorts of podcasts. And her energy is amazing, but she is a frequent listener to you all. She also is just a loving book talker, and she book talks regardless of whether she's in the store or in her, you know, her school PTO meetings or everywhere. I mean, she's just a book talker. So I think she's just. She's friends with you even if she doesn't know you. She feels this kinship to the conversations that you provide. And she's always, even as a bookseller, and that's what a true reader is, a true lover of books is somebody who's just like, I can never know enough. And I may never read enough either. But I love hearing people, what people are reading and what they're talking about. And I'm going to find my next great read via next great conversation.

A (8:31)

That is so great. And I was wondering, too. It's so funny. My daughter, the other day, she. She asked me, she's like, mom, why are you always talking about books? And I was like, great. I'm glad that that is your. She's five. I'm like, great. I'm glad that that is what is coming across. But also, there's worse things she could be asking, right? I'm like, that is what I think. You know, being a book talker is. Is really sort of having a conversation in all spaces, whether it's a bookstore, whether it's a podcast. But thanks for indulging me. I was curious. I'm like, I wonder how they heard of us. So. Hey, Alice, thanks for reach us.

B (9:00)

Yes.

A (9:01)

So we will kick things off as we always do with our loving lately. And I. I don't want folks to. Okay. So my loving lately is the dollar tree. Indeed. And I always feel like when I bring something like this, people are gonna be like, seriously, the dollar Tree. But I'm very serious when I say I have been so impressed with specifically their skincare lately. So I'm holding a couple products in my hand here. Dollar Tree, right? Everything's what, a $25? So these things are very comparable to what you would get at the drugstore or even at an ulta. You know, me, I'm a skincare aficionado, so I know what I'm talking about. Specifically the Hemp Dreams oil mist. I'm obsessed with this thing. It's basically a facial mist. And what I love is you can just Spray it on. It just makes your skin refreshed throughout the day. So I don't always have a demonstration, but since it's here I thought I would. I also love their eye serum. This eye serum, again, $25 better than some of the ones that are much more expensive and then I don't feel using a lot of it. I tend to be like somebody that likes to use up products. So this again, the eye serum that I'm showing, it's a red bottle by Be Pure. Fantastic. I've also really liked their vitamin C brightening jelly eye masks. These things. I always like the concept of a jelly eye mask that's disposable. But the Peter Thomas Roth ones that I think these are sort of a dupe of are very expensive and I could never bring myself to pay that much for them. But these, you, you. It comes with something like 20 pairs and I'm like, these are fantastic. My husband's been using it as well. My girls have tried to use it. But I'm like, it's a little early for you. But anyway, I just wanted to spotlight Dollar Tree and specifically their skincare aisle. But I feel like I'm a Dollar Tree lover. But I think their products have been, even have been getting better and better, which I think is so great because it's an affordable price point. So listeners, if you have a Dollar Tree in your area, I definitely recommend checking them out, checking out their skincare section and then obviously anything else. You know, they always have some sort of holiday or other good things going on. So my loving lately is the Dollar Tree skin care aisle.

B (11:08)

I love watching Dollar Tree Hauls on Tick Tock.

A (11:11)

Oh, same, same.

C (11:12)

I don't know why I think it's so great.

A (11:15)

And this is where I got the, the. Not this specifically this. I just came across on my own, this stuff. Nina Poole. Do you know who that is? Anyone know who Nina Poole is? They are a creator and they do a ton of Dupes videos and I had initially saw them talk about this and then it was a slippery slope. That's what brought me in. At any rate, I also recommend their channel as well.

B (11:36)

Nice. Love a creator recommendation as well.

A (11:40)

Yes, Joanna, I don't know if you have something that you've been loving lately, but the floor is yours if you want to share.

C (11:47)

So yeah, I'm going to. I am going to recommend a TV show that's streaming now on Netflix partly because right for me, TV either in complement to books and. Or in necessity during the winter months when we're freezing cold. TV is, is my comfort at the end of my day. And a lot of times a TV show for me needs to serve a couple purposes. It needs to keep my attention and keep me inform somewhat, but it just needs to be a little bit simple and playful and comforting. Maybe especially right now for several different reasons. But the one that I've been watching, the man on the Inside with Ted Danson, who is an aged actor now who I came of age with myself in the 80s. It's both quirky and curious and smart enough to keep me like guessing about who did what there, you know, he's part of this team of slap shot private investigators and he has all of these really clever lines and engagements with people that he's basically spying on. But it's really, it's playful, it's funny, it's weird, it's cinematically interesting, it's warm. Right there obviously is conflict, as with any great story, but it's not stressful for me, which I think for tv that's what I'm willing to take in. And I just really, I like his performance. I like the other actors in it. I think they're all just curious and funny. So the man on the Inside, streaming on Netflix right now, it is a perfect cap to your day along with a cup of hot coffee or chocolate. I do drink coffee at night. That's weird too.

B (13:39)

I do too.

C (13:39)

That's my favorite thing.

A (13:41)

Yes. That's like a sub loving lately is a cup of coffee at night, midnight coffee. I think that sounds perfect for exactly what you're describing where you're still entertained and it's, you know, got depth and nuance to it. But it's also you're not having to like wait, who's that person? Who's that person? And really like dial in when you're watching it. I love a good TV recommendation because I don't often watch tv so when, when people mention them I'm like, good. Because I know so many people are always looking for new shows.

B (14:08)

Yeah, I'd seen that one pitched to me on my Netflix profile, but I hadn't heard anybody talking about it. So I'm glad that I finally kind of have a little inside scoop as to what, what it's about and it does sound like something that I would enjoy watching. I am also going to bring a TV show. Ish. I'm going to bring a docu series that I recently watched all of this past. It's called Spy High and it's a documentary series on Prime Video is a four part true crime documentary series and it revisits a shocking real world surveillance scandal from 2010. It starts out with 15 year old Blake Robbins when he was accused in high school of selling drugs based on a photo that was taken in his own bedroom though. And this triggered a nationwide controversy. It turns out the school district had activated the webcams of the students who had school issued computers and they did this with hundreds of school issued laptops without students or parents knowledge. And they used this to track devices and they captured tens of thousands of images of students inside of their own homes. So the series unpacks the ensuing lawsuits, the privacy violations, there was racial profiling that happened during this whole scandal and just a lot of other broader ethical questions about digital surveillance in schools and also in other contexts and settings as well. What I found especially interesting about this particular docu series is how much it invites you to think about motivation. And that goes from both the school district and from the families that were involved in this investigation as well. It definitely raises a lot of real questions about why certain parents pushed forward and why certain parents were almost forced to not push forward with the investigation and how those family dynamics shaped the narrative. Really complicating what initially feels like a very clear cut privacy violation. It does get blurry and it was really interesting to think about those questions. And ultimately this was just a really messed up situation. It should have never happened. If I wanted to say one thing critical about the series is that I don't think it needed to be four parts. The story itself is really strong, it's very watchable, but it does feel stretched out and a little bit repetitive. But that said, the core reporting is really solid. The storytelling is really engaging enough to carry you through the whole thing. I think where this really succeeded is sparking timely conversations about privacy, about surveillance, systemic issues in school, around race, and other systemic problems in the public school system, like including power in the age of technology, especially when those systems are used on children. I thought that the questions it raised were really urgent and worth sitting with. So this was just a really interesting docu series, especially if you want true crime, but maybe true crime that doesn't involve like a homicide or something like that happening. I always think that it's interesting to bring more true crime podcasts, series, things like that that don't necessarily involve a murder or something like that. This was a totally different kind of crime that was taking place and it was interesting to follow along. And that was spy High. And that's a docu series. On Prime Video.

A (17:43)

My mouth was just agape when you were explaining this. And part of it's because, frankly, I've had people in my life who cover up their little cameras on their computer with like a post it. And I was always like, no one's getting in there. What are they gonna look for? And now I. Now do I. Boy, do I have egg on my face. Because that is crazy. I'm gonna have to watch that because I'm desperate to know how it. Like, what happens after that.

B (18:08)

Yeah, it was really interesting. And like I said, obviously the situation that happened was just not cool. But you do kind of find out some of the school's perspective too, and what was going on at the school. And while it obviously is not any justification or anything like that at all, it was definitely like, oh, I didn't, you know, like you just.

C (18:27)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

B (18:28)

Just some things were brought up that you wouldn't expect while watching it.

A (18:32)

Dang. Okay, well, I feel silly for mine now, but, you know, this is what we do for the silly. I got a new facial spray.

B (18:38)

I don't know about you guys, but not silly.

C (18:41)

I love it.

A (18:42)

I love it too. Right? We are multifaceted over here. All right, so I also wanted to tell you about my latest read. And I actually semi brought this with Joanna in mind, knowing that we're doing a bookstore browse episode, because the book that I brought largely takes place in a bookstore. So it is how to Read a Book by Monica Wood. And man, this one was. Okay, so this is what my in Person book club with my friends read this month. We're meeting later today, so I'm very excited to see what everybody thought about it. This is not something that I would typically rise to the top of my tbr, but I'm really happy that it did because I thought this was just excellent. So you're following three characters in it. Primarily you've got Violet, who is 22 from rural Abbott Falls, Maine, and she is being released from prison after serving 22 months for a drunk driving crash that killed a local kindergarten teacher. Harriet Larson is the second point of view, and she is a retired English teacher who runs the prison book club. And she is facing the prospect of an empty nest and is sort of looking for what's going to get her going in this next phase of life. And then you're following Frank, who is a retired machinist. And you do find out what that is while reading. And Frank, you find out that Frank was married to the woman who was killed by Violet. And these three have a chance encounter at the bookstore in Portland after Violet gets released from prison. Because she goes there essentially when she was about ready to be released. They were in the middle of a book. She was like, I. I want to finish it. So she went to this bookstore and explained her situation, and in doing so, ran into Harriet. Frank sees her, panics because obviously he recognizes her from the trial. So that's basically what you're following, is these are these three characters who are at all different, who are in all different phases of their life. And this is a story of found family. And I love a good found family story where you're spending time, you're spending your life with people that you wouldn't otherwise expect, but it ends up just being this situation that is really just makes you into who you are as a person. I thought this was very compelling too. And I will say, it starts off, you're in the prison system with Harriet and the other women inmates and the other women who are incarcerated. And I got hooked right away. I really, really like the voice that the author gave to the characters. She also stole. She also told this story with a lot of heart. So there was not judgment passed. You. You get a little bit of the backstory about the women in prison. And what I love is that she was able to give us that without blame. It was just sort of, here's what happened, here's how they know each other. And I just really appreciated that. If I had a critique, my only thing that I would say is, I wish that everyone who gets released from being incarcerated could get this second chance. And I know that's not often the case. And I was sort of like, I loved it, and it was this hopeful story. And I wish that was the case for more people. This is also about the power of book club. And they were having this conversation in the very beginning, a lot of the women. So Harriet is trying to, like, bring all these different books, like, maybe they'll like poetry, maybe they'll like this. And like, it was about one book they all hated, but they had said that that was their best discussion that they had. And I'm like, oh, my gosh, you put words to what I feel, right? It's always fun when there's a book that has a lot of divisive opinions. I loved Violet. I thought she was a great character. And there was sort of. There's action. It's a very character driven story. But you do get to follow these characters as they go on through the next. I want to say maybe a couple years of their life. I really enjoyed it. The ending was perfect. Excellent. And I highly recommend this book. This one is how to Read a Book by Monica Wood.

B (22:37)

I feel like based on that title, that is not the story that I would expect.

A (22:42)

Hate the title. No offense to anybody involved, but I'm like, how to read a book? Like I, I. Yes. And I don't like that, you know, but I will say it makes sense having read it, what they were doing and sort of the. After having read it. Yeah, but you're right. At first I'm like, is this a what? Is this a how to book? What's going on?

C (23:01)

Yeah, no, I, I love actually in book selling. Right. The title and marketing. Right. Yeah, yeah, but. Right. It can be problematic. It can be problematic to hand that book to somebody who can't get past the title and has some assumptions about it.

B (23:17)

Yeah.

A (23:17)

Yes.

B (23:18)

Oh, that's such a good point.

A (23:20)

I'm guilty of that.

B (23:21)

Joanna, do you want to share with us your latest read, a brief synopsis and then your thoughts about it?

C (23:28)

Sure. Currently I'm reading Theo of golden and the only reason I'm reading that is the frequency with which so many others were reading it towards the end of the holiday season and asking us for it and its journey, its unique journey from being a self published small story into this sort of blossoming phenomenon. I had some reservations about diving into it even when I first started reading it because Theo narrates it. He is a octogen. He's continuously calls himself an old man. He's this very gentle soul which makes him this comforting narrator. He moves to golden, which I believe is a fictional town in Carolina that. Right. Either north or South. It's really not that important to the story, but that he has never lived there. He finds a makeshift home in a cafe and which displays dozens and dozens of hand drawn portraits of various individuals. And he is quite taken by all of these portraits and makes it his mission to sort of gift the portraits back to the individuals who the artist made them for. So he had a long career and a successful life financially and has for several reasons that become slowly uncovered, chosen to move to a place where nobody quite knows him and where he can give back in some way that feels purposeful to him. And that way is his gentle connections and reaching out to these quiet and often marginalized and strange individuals who have had their portraits done by also this really unique artist who is wandering through life and really hasn't found commercial success through his art, but becomes needs to keep drawing and needs to keep looking at the world and looking at people. So the. The book is really a meditation on what makes a life purposeful and how do we measure a life. And it's. And I think because it's in the voice of this old man who keeps referring to himself as an old man and sort of deferring to the beauty that he sees around him, including in these individuals who he seeks out. It's. I feel like for the readers that I know who have needed it, it gives them both hope and the ability to say to themselves, a life is measured by seeing beauty and by giving yourself to others or offering yourself to others in really gentle and caring ways, which Theo really does. I think the critique that I would have of it and I. I do, I love it and I, I did it carried me through sort of what felt like a particularly dark few days of digesting real life stories in a very necessary and. And wonderful way. The critique I think I would have is that some readers who need plot to carry them or action or really like there are several moments of conflict and oddities that happen, but there isn't one dramatic moment of reckoning. I think for some readers, Theo will feel inauthentic not for a reason that they want it to. I think he will feel authentic. And he did absolutely feel authentic to me because I think the world that we live in right now doesn't permit us to behave the way that Theo does on so many levels. And we maybe want to. And we want to find something, somebody like Theo, and we can't quite believe that he exists for quite tragic reasons, in part because we don't have the freedom to. To seek out strangers and recognize their beauty or to maybe have the time and the privilege to be able to just witness life for its. Its wonder and its. Its many beauties. So some people might feel frustrated by that or feel like, who is this Theo? What.

B (27:40)

Who.

C (27:41)

Who is this writer? But clearly this writer has hit a nerve and he hit my nerve. And I do recommend Theo of Golden for any reader.

A (27:51)

Fantastic.

B (27:52)

Describe that so beautifully.

A (27:54)

I know we heard about it from some of our patrons who had recommended it. Like you said, a lot of people were reading it last year and I have a copy. And when it came in the mail talk speaking of book titles, I was like, what's this? Like, I don't know. You know, I didn't know what Theo of Golden was. And then I had been hurt. I had heard people recommending it, but the way you describe it sounds like it would Be something that I would enjoy. And I almost wonder. I feel like it would be a good pairing with how to Read a book by Monica Wood in that some of these. The chances that Violet was given made me think, gosh, I wish this was the way for everyone. Right. But so often people's privilege doesn't allow for that. But anyway, yeah, good recommendation.

B (28:35)

Do you feel like. Because the way I've heard you describe this book and a couple others, do you feel like this might be a good book for people who like. Like Fredrik Backman or something like that? Because I feel like his books tackle a lot of those topics. I don't know. That's just been something I've been thinking about. Okay, awesome. I love. I love Fredrik Backman.

C (28:55)

That's perfect. I think it's a perfect.

B (28:57)

Perfect. Okay. My latest read is Coffin Moon by Keith Rawson. And this is a completely different book.

C (29:05)

From both of the ones that we have read, talked about.

A (29:08)

It was, like, a little different, but a little different.

B (29:10)

I read a vampire horror novel, so we're gonna. We're gonna switch up the vibes a little bit. This is one of those books that grabbed me almost immediately and didn't let go. I'm so excited to talk about it. This story follows Duane, who is almost exclusively referred to by his last name in this story, which is Minor. And Minor is a Vietnam veteran who has recently returned home, and he is trying, sometimes barely, to stay sober. He runs the bar beneath his apartment, which is a bar owned by his wife's parents, but very much operated and lived in by him. And he shares the space with his wife Heidi and his niece Julia, who they have guardianship over from the start. There is this feeling of tension simmering underneath the surface. There's trauma, responsibility, addiction, and the weight of trying to keep everything together. And then things go completely sideways. Minor gets pulled into a very sticky and violent family situation tied to some kind of, like, gang deal or something of the like. And from there, the story spirals into a long and very brutal journey that is very much filled with violence and gore and also supernatural elements. And yes, this is a vampire novel. I don't always love vampire stories. I can be pretty picky about them. But this is genuinely one of the best vampire books I have read in a long time. And a huge part of that comes down to Rossen's writing. The action starts almost immediately. You are dropped straight into the chaos, and you get a very quick dose of violence and gore right away. But what really impressed me is how none of that comes at the expense of of the characters and their development. Even in the most intense and fast paced scenes, Rasen is still developing. These people, both the villains and our protagonists, you are inside their heads. You are learning who they are, you're learning what makes them tick, what they're afraid of, what they regret and what they're willing to sacrifice. All while these terrible and bloody and horrific things are happening all around them. I feel like that balance is really hard to pull off and I thought that Keith Rossen did it really well. This book is also doing a lot thematically. There is found family here, deeply so there is addiction and recovery, there is tenderness alongside brutality, there is lore and we definitely get to know why and how certain supernatural things are happening. But it never overwhelms the story. And there is also a coming of age element, in part because the book is told through the perspective of Julia Minor's niece watching the world through her eyes, especially as it becomes more violent and more supernatural, more scary. She's dealing with grief too, and that adds an emotional layer of the story that really stuck with me. If I have one critique of this story, it is the pacing. It is broken into chunks of time. And while I really appreciate that this is a 320 page standalone, I really wish we had more of those, especially in this genre. I actually think I might have loved an even longer version of this story, which I feel like I don't say very often. I would have liked to see some of those time jumps, maybe spread out a little bit more, letting certain relationships and consequences breathe a little bit. But that said, this is a small complaint in the grand scheme of things. There are moments in this book that are weird and tender. There are moments that are outright gruesome and brutal. There is a lot of excitement, a lot of emotional weight, and a very surprising amount of heart. And one thing I wanted to note is that I feel like this book begs to be adapted into a video game. The entire time I was reading it, I kept getting the Last of Us vibes. That protective, broken father figure with this young girl navigating a really terrifying world, just with vampires in this one instead of zombies. It was cinematic, it was atmospheric and incredibly visual. So in case you couldn't tell, I loved this book. And as soon as I finished it, I went straight to the storygraph to see what else Keith Rossen has written because I absolutely want to read more from him. If you are even remotely interested in vampire stories, or if you like character driven horror with emotional depth, then I think this book is worth your time and that is Coffin Moon by Keith Rawson.

A (33:50)

I immediately opened the story graph and added it to my TBR as I I tend to do that when we're recording. I'm like like oh I'm going to add this tag it as Hannah recommended. So if anyone follows me over there they probably can tell when we're recording because I always add at least one or two. But really good job on both of those books. I am excited that we have three winners too. Sometimes that doesn't always happen.

B (34:11)

They're not all winners.

A (34:12)

Yeah, not all winners. But that's okay. There's value to all types of book reviews. So I definitely though Joanna want to talk more about the store and the book selling process. So if you don't mind kick things off. You know the first question we usually ask is tell us about your store and what makes it special and unique. But we already got that very interesting backstory that's very unique and I would like to know a little bit more about your day to day and what it looks like sort of you know, as you run the store.

C (34:43)

Do you really want to know?

A (34:44)

I don't know.

C (34:44)

Do your listeners? This is what I always do. Right. I know and I I love and I and I keep wanting to do one of those tiktoks like the imagined exact experience of the bookseller reading and reviewing and engaging really beautifully with every customer and the reality of operating a bookstore and especially so our this is a bookstore location is close to 5,000 square retail space. Maintaining that space is no small job. Physically my day varies greatly and I always answer that question saying right like we so I never know what the priority might be. I always have my priorities right. I order every day. I generate restock orders orders every day. I love that dance. I love seeing what customers are are buying the day before and what has been bought many times before that and what is newly being bought. I love seeing that and get getting that peek into that story of my community and what is resonating with them. So generating orders is definitely something I do every day and is a priority. But that priority can get shift shifted back if we have a physical need that needs to be met, including an unexpected shipment that arrives that needs to sort of have my attention earlier rather than later. Even though certain booksellers are always receiving each weekday. I am yeah doing a lot of the marketing for the store so thinking about what is going in our next newsletter, what frontless titles we're needing to promote, how we are thinking about Scheduling our own book clubs and what titles are being chosen for those. So yeah, you know, day to day, honestly, but the physicality of it I can't underestimate for anybody who dreams of opening any kind of small business, honestly. But bookstores maybe especially I know we all as book lovers know that books don't weigh nothing. And the reality of having to take care of a place that at least pretends to organize them in a system that where they can be found easily, where they can be recognized easily, that also takes seriously its responsibility as an independent bookstore to platform those titles that aren't being platformed by millions of dollars of marketing budget from their publisher and or in the front windows of big box book retailers as a result of those millions of dollars that publishers. Right. So those kinds of things. Having my eyes on those things on our displays as do honestly all of our booksellers. So a big part of my role too as what I call myself, the caretaker, is caretaking to our staff and making sure our staff has what they need on a daily basis. That they are communicating with each other about the flow of their own work and what the expectations of that is that the right things like online orders are getting processed in the mornings early, before the flow of customers usually emerges later into the morning and then higher into the afternoon and certainly the after school crowds. So my days vary greatly. Still, my greatest joy, whether or not I am able to be all the time, is being on the floor and engaging honestly with with new, new people who I don't know and who don't know me. My favorite question that I get at the bookstore is do you work here? Despite the fact that I have worked there for 18 years and do everything I love when somebody doesn't recognize me and wants to ask me that question as a person who may be able to give them a recommendation or guide them towards their next great read or if they have an idea about some kind of gathering they want to have at the bookstore, which also is something that we quite intentionally built. This is a bookstore with the idea of the flexibility of the space, the ways that we can arrange conversations within the space, the ways that we can welcome musicians and or spoken word artists into our space is something really important to us. So I do. I also do a lot of the event planning, which is no small task for anyone who knows that how many messages back and forth to the parties involved and how much thought and clarity needs to go into inviting community to those kinds of gatherings. If that is your intention, you know, we're hosting Again, we expect and possibly even more this year to host grown up book fairs. We'll have one in February that is always sort of love themed or book love themed and. Right. Tapping into what at least my generation and millennials certainly feel for this deep love of the experience of having been invited to take some of the time away from their classroom and go to the book fair and see all of the great new books and get to choose some. And for those of us who are lucky enough to have parents who said there are restrictions on a lot of things, but maybe not books, we remember that fondly. And that experience that being allowed to browse books and choose the ones that you love and maybe as an adult have a grown up beverage, which we're lucky enough to be able to provide in our space also alongside a great shopping tote, which is always something we provide on those evenings also. And this year we'll be adding some trivia games and prizes to those evenings. So things like that occupy a lot of my brain space and some of my back room space. But yeah, I began by saying the physical stuff, right. There's never not a Florida mop, there's never not a bathroom to take a look at to restock the supplies of, and there's always books to be unpacked and vigilantly recorded and received. So that process. So I have become quite, quite slightly obsessed with it. It was not something that motivated me to be a business owner. I was actually quite intimidated by the idea of managing all of the, and being accountable to my inventory and watching it and watching the flow. Now it's actually, I love it. I do call it a dance. I love it's its own story and its own kind of empowering way to look at who our community is, what they're reading and what they care about.

A (41:17)

I love what you had said. I mean, one, yes, I do think that people can sometimes romanticize the life of being a bookstore owner. Right. You're, you're constantly, you know, reading and maybe you're doing some of that, of course, but there is a lot more to it. I love what you said though, that you platform books that don't have the millions of dollars behind them, the millions of marketing dollars behind them. I'm wondering in what ways are you able to do that?

C (41:43)

I mean, one is the agency. We have to make that decision, right? We're not answering to anybody. We don't have relationships with the publishers where we make any sort of agreements to put any book anywhere, right. So right now our front table happens to have a theme of self, purpose and peace. Right. Which is a theme that we interpret and that we bring many times small press titles onto and. Or books that we happen to read that really fueled us on that theme and that may not be recognized by others. Backlist titles that have. Right. Sort of settled into their presence like they're still in print, but they're not being platformed in any other way, but by a simple hand putting them into another simple hand, but also onto a front table at our store. Right? That's literally what I do talk about and what I was somewhat naive to when I entered the business and what, you know, big retail in America. The reality is that big retail answers to big industry, right? Including food industry. Right. Like where placements happen in grocery stores is largely dictated by agreements between big food corporations and large grocers. So the same thing is mimicked in the. In the publishing industry. And the freedom that we have as independents is literally, we own the space. Right? It's our space to get to say what we want. And I do take that responsibility seriously, to both reflect the identities within our bookstore. Right. And not apologize for my own identity and my own preferences and my own worldviews while still answering and honoring my community. When community members and readers come to me and say both I loved this book, you should bring it in. That's something I take very seriously. But when community members say this display seems to tell a story that is specific to the store, would you. Can we add. Would you be willing to add to the story on this display? And I think when I take those comments most to heart, it's when they come from readers and. Or people who have had a life experience that is different than mine and that is impacted by a display that represents a life experience that is also important, but also perhaps in conflict with what the perceived display is, I'm probably being a little bit vague about that, but that's just me saying that when I. Part of our store's mission and many independent booksellers, I think, is to in a bigger way, honor that experience of being seen and getting to have your story told. Because in our country and in our world, the systems of power do dictate that largely. And we see many ways in which people of privilege get to tell their stories and those who don't. And that's part of how privileged is defined, Right. And how history is defined. So that if we are truly curious readers and thinkers and lovers of story, why do we keep wanting to hear the same one? Right? Are the ones told by the voices who have always told the stories of history. Shouldn't we consider the fact that we will have a richer vantage on a fuller story of the human experience if we, if we seek out proactively the stories of those who have been marginalized? And I affirmatively say yes as a reader alone because it makes your awareness of the human experience so much richer and so much more entertaining and like just so much fundamentally better.

B (45:36)

Yeah, I mean, you hit the nail on the head of that's. I mean, why we read largely is to be able to hear about these other experiences that are so far outside our own. I've heard this phrase used here and there across several different book spaces. I don't know who coined it, but reading can be window and it can be a mirror and both are so important. And I love that you are making space for both in your store and that when people come to you and they say, hey, I have a window for you, that you, you know, allow space for other people to look through that window as well and make it a part of your store experience.

A (46:17)

Very well said. I love that it's basically, this is, you know, you're able to curate that. And yeah, that was just something that I was. That's why independent bookstores are so important. Right. Especially finding one that, you know, provides that sort of front table. Like you said, that is something that it sounds like serves your community.

B (46:36)

Okay, our next question. I love this question and love asking booksellers, what is the most popular hand sold book at your store?

C (46:49)

I know these questions about like the most popular. I did, I answered this question and this is a true answer based on both sales numbers and the number of booksellers we have at both of our booksellers who read and loved this book, despite the fact that this book had its own traction and was written by a relatively well known author. But the book itself is the Gals of November. It's a nonfiction narrative telling of the sinking of the Edmund Fitzgerald. But that is a vastly simplified summary of what is a remarkable investigation into both the science and the majesty of the Great Lakes and the danger of the Great Lakes and the underestimated sort of power and import, both historically and economically, of all the Great Lakes and also an intimate telling of what it was that built the Edmund Fitzgerald, this remarkable sea vessel that sailed on the Great Lakes and did very important work. And the story of the crew that was lost on this November day in 1975. And a horrible tragedy that is known in maritime history and was not known by me. At all, as somebody who grew up on the north side of Chicago, right not far away from where it took place. But the story of Edmond definitely has this mythical curiosity in Michigan especially, and it's one that I've known well since having lived in Michigan. But it's not that alone. Part of that makes it an easy handsaw for us, but it's the fact that this book did, for the first time, such an amazing job of telling the truth of this story, but also offering a peek into the broader stories all around the sinking of this particular ship. And it wasn't about the sinking itself, though the sinking and the the circumstances of the sinking were highly dramatic. And I've honestly never read in any story, fiction or non, anything as sort of heart racing and disquieting as the segment of explaining exactly how this ship ultimately sank and was devastated. So I don't know if that fits for your readers, but I do read a lot of nonfiction. I will say that the Gals in November by John EU Bacon is one of the best narrative nonfiction books I've read in the last five years. His pacing, his clarity, his care, his empathy all shine in this book, and I think that's why Part of what made it such a great hand sell was that booksellers could find a way to tap into any one of those things for any single reader and also recognized there was going to be a whole segment of people who were going to read this just by its tagline, but that that was nowhere near who deserved to read it, including me. I shouldn't even say this, that I was neither here nor there on the Edmund Fitzgerald. I really didn't know why I was supposed to care and I didn't know that I did, and now I really do.

B (50:10)

No, you can say that. You can say that I am local to Michigan and I have lived in southwest Michigan for most of my life and I have no I did not know about this story. So my interests are piqued. And I love when a book recommended by a bookseller by a bookstore owner is something that is so local but still has such a broad appeal. And it sounds like this is a perfect book for that. Anyone who really enjoys exciting narrative nonfiction will find something to enjoy here. It's great that it's so specific to this local area too.

A (50:48)

I was going to say you sold that so well because I was like, what? I don't know what this is about. And then I looked it up. I'm like, oh, I'm deeply interested. I want to know what Happened especially. I think you're right. Narrative nonfiction is a good entry point for folks that tend to read more fiction. But, yeah, that one is a great, like you said, local recommendation. Do you have any books that surprised you with how well they sold?

C (51:13)

I mean, there's always surprises. Yeah. So I. I have to say, the correspondent. Gosh, that's.

A (51:21)

Yeah.

C (51:21)

For as much as I knew that quietly. Many. And I can picture them all, and they are frequent customers. Many customers, sort of quietly were mentioning this book. I. I still thought of it as, as. As its own little bubble. Right. And I guess that's where you're always humbled in bookselling and in the bookstore experience. But that's where it was like, gosh, it was just this little bubble. It was just literally these women talking to each other. And I pretty sure it was just Lynn on her own in Kalamazoo. And I'm outing her right now, right. Like, telling five of her friends, which then became five more friends and five more friends. So I was convinced. I'm like, okay, it's gonna stop. Right? Like, it's. It's got its. It's done. Right?

A (52:08)

Yeah. Right.

C (52:08)

It done what it needed to do, and I couldn't keep up with it. I really couldn't. And I don't know that a lot of people could. But it did throw me for a loop during what I take pride in being a season of, like, I've got this. I can predict it. I can get out ahead of what I see as the need and the curiosity around this book. So. But that. And it continues. And that's where I was. And I think in part because the book, form of the book. Right. The letters, is not something that many readers of fiction, at least at the outset, are willing to take that kind of a form and be convinced that it's going to be a full story.

A (52:49)

Yes. Epistolary novels often give me pause, too, because I'm like, I don't know if I'll like this, but I'm very tempted by that one because that one, like you said, has been everywhere. And it's still. I still see it recommended often.

B (53:01)

That book got so much buzz this year, and I am so glad that it worked for so many people because I don't think that it was a book that at least I know in the spaces that I follow. I don't feel like I heard a lot of early buzz for that book. And then when it was published, it was like everybody was talking about it and loving it. Okay, my next question is, are there Any recent trends that have surprised you, whether that's, you know, any like, bookish tropes or authors that have, you know, popped up and gotten popular, or just any kind of like, bookish trends that have popped up that maybe you weren't expecting.

C (53:42)

You know, I can speak better on the kids book side for this, but. And maybe. Right. Capybaras all of a sudden are trending. That's so funny.

A (53:50)

They really are. I love this fact.

C (53:56)

Because some of those kinds of quirky trends don't translate with bookstores. But certainly we do have many kids not just writing to read the stories about copybaras are all of a sudden. Which we. I. Yeah. Shout out to authors and publishers. We need more. But like non fiction. Like, what, do they really behave that way? Do they really.

A (54:16)

Right.

C (54:16)

Pile on each other all these really sweet curiosities. So I mean, that's. That's a weird answer to that one, but I have to say I'm also kind of like, weirded out a little bit. But I have to give it a try. Further it by the ways in which streaming romance is igniting a fierce passion to read the stories. I guess in part because. And this again, me as my own reader, and I only watched episode one so far of the one that I know that, you know, I'm referencing, but I was like, this feels like a.

A (54:55)

Really rivalry, baby, underdeveloped story.

C (55:00)

And maybe that's why people are like, oh, right. Like it gets great eventually. I know it does. I believe it.

A (55:06)

And.

C (55:07)

But maybe people are needing to read the book so much because they want to get inside their heads a little bit more, which is how I felt very much when I watched episode one. I was like, I have no idea what either of you are thinking right now, and I need a little bit more information about this passion that's gonna blossom.

B (55:24)

Yeah.

C (55:24)

Right. So anyway, that. And keeping up with sort of the variety of readers. Because I think for us, at least as a store, we know our romance readers. And that's not to sort of typecast. That's to be like, we do literally know them. We know when they come in and what they're going to ask for and how to sort of guide them. And we're seeing a broader age range with heated rivalry. And we're also seeing a broader everything, which also is fantastic. I. I absolutely love that when sort of genre books that have their steady allies and their steady. Right. Readers broaden into this, like, okay, Uncle Larry's reading it now. Right.

A (56:14)

Good for you, Uncle Larry. Right. What?

C (56:18)

Oh, I love that.

A (56:19)

What are your. Okay. You know, your romance readers, what do they like to ask for?

C (56:23)

So a lot of our romance readers straddle right into fantasy.

A (56:28)

So.

C (56:29)

But they want a strong romantic narrative in that world building and sort of. Yeah. Mythical abilities and all of those things, but the romance and the satisfying romance. Right. And I was interested in some of the questions that. Or the stipulation some of your listeners made about what. What romance and how to, like, leave certain parts of that. But I think, at least for the ones that I know best, like the, the resolution and the satisfaction of either the conjoined romance or like the. The hero feeling really satisfied by the end is. Is largely important to my. To the. But, yeah. So they're asking me. A lot of them are asking, like, if I'm reading Emily Henry, who can I jump into? Right. But with more. More world building. Yeah, I guess. And for me. And this was one of my answers to your questions, too, for me, it's like that genre reader who's willing to take the lead into what is branded as literary fiction, but needs to know that there's going to be some intense, like, intimate scenes, which, you know, I love Sally Rooney for.

B (57:52)

Yeah.

A (57:53)

Yeah.

C (57:53)

Or Gabriel Zevin sometimes. So the ways that they asked me to sort of say, I really. I really love intimate scenes or I love relationship drama.

B (58:06)

Yeah.

C (58:07)

And I'm willing to. To jump into literary because that's what I tend to read a little bit more. Or contemporary. And.

A (58:15)

Yeah, that's me. I'm like, I want mess. I want mess. I don't know. Spice is okay. If it's there. Great. I want mess. But I'm not a romance reader. So that. Let me, Let me rephrase that. I don't need a traditional romance. I know romance readers have their. Hannah, what's the word? Not formula, but the.

B (58:33)

Yeah, I would call it a formula.

A (58:35)

A formula. Okay. The, you know, the, the happily ever after, that sort of thing.

B (58:40)

Yes. I'm a little bit more of the traditional romance reader, but I also love mess.

C (58:45)

So I'll do it.

B (58:47)

I'll do both.

A (58:48)

Right, right. Are there any books that are coming out in 2026 that you're very excited about?

C (58:55)

So the book coming out next week, Vigil by George Saunders, is something I cannot wait to get my hands on. It's one of the, you know, few big books that we did not get an arc on. And I, I love Saunders as a storyteller, as a writer, as a comfort. And I really. I did not think I was going to enjoy Lincoln and the Bardo. When I had been recommended it, I didn't think I was invested in the story of the death of Lincoln's son or anything about that period of history. It's not that it wasn't fascinating and pivotal, just didn't necessarily feel like something that Saunders, for me, needed to write about. And I really loved that story and the way it was told. So the fact that he is carrying on the tradition of that book with vigil and, and gifting us again with possibly very few words to tell a whole lot about ourselves as human beings and as Americans is one that I'm very much looking forward to. Emma Straub's American Fantasy is on my radar. Lindy West's Adult Braces is a nonfiction book that I. Right. Lindy, for me, has been somebody who consistently makes me believe that we as women matter. As flawed and effed up as our world is like, we get to say the way things are and we get to say it with humor and heart and get ready for somebody to tell us that we can't say it. I don't. I just really like her and I think Adult Braces is gonna we're going to see her a little bit more vulnerable than she's ever been with us. And I always appreciate that with authors. I know.

A (60:56)

Yeah, we're excited for Vigil too. That is we every month we have a book talk etc. Community read with our patrons where we discuss it on our discord. And that is our pick for February. And I cannot wait. I'm very excited about it. I also like that it's short. It's only 192 pages. So it's not, you know, but I just know it's going to be. You're going to want to sort of pay attention to every, every section in that one. All right, so we will wrap things up as we typically do with our shelf editions. And shelf editions are books that have made their way into our homes lately, whether we bought it or whether we had it sent to us. Now, Joanna, you, you may not have a specific shelf edition, given that you are receiving new books. I'm sure weekly. I will share, though, the book that I just grabbed as my recent shelf edition. I got It's Murder your Darlings by Jenna Bloom. I was in Florida this week and went to an indie there called Writer's Block in Winter Park, Florida. Anyway, I always like to, you know, visit a bookstore when I'm in a new place and make sure to buy something. And I'm so excited for this one because it taught one. It's a thriller, which is my sweet spot. But it also ties into an upcoming episode that we're doing because I think this is going to be romantic suspense. It is a contemporary suspenseful novel about love, loss and revenge in the world of books. So I'm like, yeah, sign me up. It sounds like a. An author meets this very famous author and things between them are not what they seem. There's a stalker involved and frankly I don't need much more than that. So I will be giving this one a shot very soon. And that's Murder your Darlings by Jenna Bloom.

B (62:35)

I haven't heard of that one.

A (62:37)

No. Oh, yes, no, I heard of it. I love the. Speaking of titles, I love the title of this one. Obviously there. That's a famous quote that they included in the top or you know, in the. In the opening of the book. But I just thought that sounded really interesting for us.

B (62:53)

It does sound really interesting. Joanna, do you have a shelf edition that you want to share with us? Maybe something that you even brought home from the store to read that you want to share with us or whatever you want to share?

C (63:08)

Yeah. And I guess. Right. And so it's not something that I have read yet, but it is on my radar and it is on my nightstand as an arc. And I'm. I don't. This is horrible of me. I don't know if it's released. I don't think it is yet, but we'll find out. Gosh, am I a bookseller or not? It's called Meet the Newmans and it is.

A (63:28)

Oh yes.

C (63:29)

Right. So I can check quickly if it's not yet released. It will.

A (63:36)

January now.

C (63:37)

Okay, so it's a new release. I still haven't read it, but it was one that was put in my hands by a trusted macmillan rep. And the premise of this mid century family who is the who performs literally as the ideal family and not just within the show that they broadcast, but in the lives that they literally pretend to have and the ones that they are guided towards when they speak to the press or when they engage even in their private conversations is fascinating and obviously ripe for conflict and trauma and anger. On behalf as I understand it, certainly the, the teenagers who are members of this family and who are coming of age in. In a time when perfection and. And household sort of family structure or the story of that is so important to maintain the appearances of. So the. Both the, the television show that they are on and the real life family that they are made to inhabit and that they that eventually implodes on several micro and then perhaps a macro level is curious to me. And I want to know if the feel of that book feels like Pleasantville or other stories that I like where the story of the making of a story on film or in TV also has a broader story that mimics the ways that we pretend to be the people we are in a broader social world.

B (65:31)

Yeah, that one sounds really interesting. My shelf edition is kind of similar ish to that one I'm bringing. Cruelty Free by Caroline Glenn. This is also I say similar because it's kind of set in this world of Hollywood and it's about Lila Devon who was a first year college student when she was kind of catapulted into Hollywood stardom and then her life shattered and fell apart when her daughter Josie was abducted and then presumed dead. And then we follow her a decade later post divorce, but she is still deeply struggling and she returns to LA to launch a cosmetics company with her magnetic friend Sylvie. Then their relationship deepens into romance and the women channel their shared grief and rage into calculated quest for revenge against all those who failed Josie or profited off of her disappearance. I just think that this sounds really interesting. I love a revenge story, a story on female rage and those conversations around Hollywood and stardom as well. So I also love the COVID of this one. I don't know you two can can see it, but it's just a really sharp cover that is really doing it for me. And that is Cruelty Free by Caroline Glenn. I just got that in the mail today.

A (67:04)

I just got it in the mail last week or who knows when it came. But yes, it's like this face that's smashed up on a Xerox machine, I think.

B (67:11)

Yep.

A (67:12)

Or up against a window or something. But anyway, it's really good and I'm interested in both of those novels. So we're gonna have to see what we end up doing. So we before we go, we are going to actually record A little bit Longer with Joanna on Patreon where she will be giving personalized book recommendations that were requested by our patrons. So if you've ever wanted a bookseller to basically hand sell you your next read, that's to your taste. That episode is for you. You can join us over on Patreon. We will have the link in our show notes while we wrap here. Listeners, if you would. If you are going to purchase any of the books that are mentioned today, we do ask that you purchase them from this is a bookstore and we will link to their website below. Joanna through your website directly. Is that the best way for our listeners to support you?

C (68:02)

It is to log into our our website. I also have the URL for my book list that I generated the curated book list to respond to the recommendations that I can share with you after the event. But I I can also link to it actively on our menu so that your listeners in the coming weeks can navigate directly to that book list of my recommendations for this show.

A (68:27)

Fantastic. That is so kind and we were complimenting your website before we started recording. It's really user friendly so listeners definitely be sure to head over there. We will link it down below. Joanna, thank you so much for spending time with us today. We really appreciate it. We loved getting to know a little bit about your store and about Kalamazoo and for your recommendation. So thank you so much for being here.

B (68:48)

Thank you so much.

A (68:50)

And that is it for today. We thank you listeners for spending a part of your day with us. Links to all the books mentioned can be found in the show notes and if you enjoyed today's episode, you can help us by following wherever you listen and by leaving a review on Apple Podcasts. It helps helps us get our show out to new listeners and grows our audience. And don't forget, if you'd like access to exclusive bonus content and community including Joanna's book list, you can join us for $5 a month on patreon.com booktalk Etc.

B (69:17)

If you'd like to connect with us, you can email us@booktalk etcmail.com you can also connect with us both at Booktok etc on Instagram and YouTube you can find Tina TBR etc and Hannahan Picked books. Talk to you next week. And in the meantime, remember everything's better with books.

A (69:37)

As a sorority girl myself, I will be reading this asap. I had it suspended on my holds list for Libby so I just went ahead and unsuspended it because I'm going to need to read that one as soon as possible.