Fictional Women and Our Favorite Literary Heroines

Summary

Podcast Summary: Book Talk, etc. – Episode: Fictional Women and Our Favorite Literary Heroines

Release Date: May 6, 2025
Hosts: Tina (@tbretc) and Hannah (@hanpickedbooks)

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I. Episode Overview

In this engaging episode of Book Talk, etc., hosts Tina and Hannah delve into the intricate world of literary heroines, exploring what makes a fictional woman compelling and memorable. Through heartfelt discussions, insightful critiques, and passionate recommendations, they navigate their preferences and frustrations with various tropes, offering listeners a comprehensive look into their perspectives on female protagonists in literature.

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II. Podcast Recommendations

A. High Roller Heist

[06:09] Unknown:
"In the early morning hours of December 14, 2010, Tony Carleo walks into the Bellagio Hotel and Casino on the Las Vegas Strip, adorned in a full motorcycle jumpsuit, gloves, and a helmet, and pulls a pistol, robbing a high-stakes craps table of $1.5 million in casino chips."

Tina introduces "High Roller Heist", an eight-episode true crime podcast that narrates the audacious heist committed by Tony Carleo. The unique aspect of this podcast is Tony himself, along with his friend from Pueblo, Colorado, who produces and interviews him. Tina praises Tony's charming personality, stating, "Tony's very funny and I was low key rooting for him, even though I shouldn't." The podcast offers a blend of humor and reflection, making it a refreshing take on the true crime genre without the usual graphic details. Tina recommends it for those seeking a well-produced and engaging true crime narrative that concludes satisfyingly without unnecessary spoilers.

B. Sweet Bobby: My Catfish Nightmare

[09:22] Hannah:
"Sweet Bobby, My Catfish Nightmare is a British true crime documentary that was filmed in October of 2024. It tells the story of Kirit Asai, who was deceived by someone in a very intricate catfishing scheme."

Hannah discusses "Sweet Bobby: My Catfish Nightmare", highlighting its transformation from a podcast series to a Netflix documentary. She emphasizes the shocking twists and emotional depth of the story, noting, "The twists and turns... left my jaw on the ground for several different reasons." Hannah recommends both the podcast and the documentary for a comprehensive understanding of the case, especially praising the serialization of the podcast for its depth and the documentary for its concise, impactful storytelling.

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III. Community Read Discussion

A. Say You'll Remember Me by Abby Jimenez

[14:29] Tina:
"There is no such thing as a perfect guy, but Xavier Rush comes disastrously close."

Tina and Hannah critique their community read, "Say You'll Remember Me", expressing mixed feelings about its portrayal of the heroine, Samantha. The hosts discuss the overly cutesy synopsis and how it contrasts with the deeper, more intense themes within the book. Hannah appreciates the author’s inclusion of content warnings, stating, "It's an evergreen conversation in the bookish space of people wanting them and not wanting them and not knowing how to toe that line." Both agree that while the book is easy to read, its characterization lacks depth, earning it a three and a half-star rating from Tina and a three-star rating from Hannah. They acknowledge Abby Jimenez's strengths in other works but feel this particular novel didn't resonate as strongly with them.

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IV. Discussing Literary Heroines

A. Qualities Hosts Look For

[24:08] Hannah:
"I really want them to have a really rich personality... bonus points if they are complex in some way or have flaws that make them more human."

Tina and Hannah explore what they value in literary heroines. Hannah emphasizes the importance of fully developed, complex characters who possess flaws that drive the narrative forward. Tina adds, "I like when heroines are able to react to situations... what would I do? How would I react?" They agree that compelling heroines elicit visceral reactions and allow readers to explore different facets of human behavior and decision-making.

B. Tropes They Dislike

[27:36] Tina:
"The woman with amnesia trope... It's tried and true in my psychological thriller space, but I am like, eek. Can we do something else?"

Both hosts express frustration with certain overused tropes, such as the amnesia trope in psychological thrillers, where female characters are often gaslit or manipulated, typically by male counterparts. Hannah further critiques Type A personalities in heroines, especially in romance genres, finding it difficult to connect with characters who are overly organized or perpetually rational. They advocate for more authentic and relatable characterizations that break away from clichéd portrayals.

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V. Book Recommendations

A. The Island of Sea Women by Lisa See

[33:10] Tina:
"This is a gorgeous story that spans many decades, following Mi Ja and Young Sook, two women from very different backgrounds."

Tina introduces "The Island of Sea Women", a historical fiction novel set on Jeju Island, South Korea. The story follows Mi Ja and Young Sook, exploring their strong female friendship amidst historical upheavals like Japanese colonialism and the Korean War. The book delves into themes of female camaraderie, resilience, and the societal pressures faced by women divers. Both hosts commend Lisa See for bringing this significant yet often overlooked part of history to life, highlighting the emotional depth and rich character development that make the novel a standout in historical fiction.

B. The Story She Left Behind by Patti Callahan Henry

[37:02] Hannah:
"This multi-point-of-view historical fiction novel with a mystery at its center... really takes the lead here with the plot."

Hannah discusses "The Story She Left Behind", a historical fiction novel intertwining a mystery with a deep mother-daughter relationship. Set between 1927 and 1952, the story follows Clara Harrington's quest to uncover the truth about her mother Bronwyn's disappearance. The novel explores themes of legacy, identity, and the complexities of maternal bonds. Hannah praises the book for its compelling narrative and strong character dynamics, making it a poignant read that resonates well with the episode's focus on literary heroines and motherhood.

C. Woodworking by Emily St. James

[42:56] Tina:
"This novel explores the idea of woodworking, where trans people who can pass decide to keep their identity hidden to avoid coming out."

"Woodworking" by Emily St. James is a debut novel that delves into the lives of Erica, a recently divorced trans woman, and Abigail, a trans high school student. The story examines their unlikely friendship as Abigail mentors Erica through her transition, set against the backdrop of a small, conservative town. The hosts commend the book for its emotional depth, humor, and nuanced portrayal of trans experiences, making it a vital addition to conversations about identity and self-acceptance in literary heroines.

D. Crossroads by Laurel Hightower

[48:10] Hannah:
"This horror novella explores how far a mother will go to bring back her lost son, navigating grief and supernatural elements."

Tina and Hannah recommend "Crossroads", a horror novella that follows Chris, a grieving mother who becomes entangled in a sinister quest to resurrect her deceased son. The story confronts themes of loss, maternal sacrifice, and the darker aspects of human emotion. While recognizing its heavy and graphic content, the hosts praise the book for its gripping narrative and emotional intensity, making it a powerful if challenging read for fans of dark, psychological horror.

E. Grotesque by Natsuo Carino

[54:44] Tina:
"This psychological noir novel weaves together the stories of beautiful Yuriko, her sister, and the awkward Kazue, exploring the pressures facing Japanese women."

"Grotesque" is lauded by the hosts for its intricate character development and exploration of societal expectations in Japan. Set in a prestigious high school, the novel investigates themes of ambition, beauty, and identity through the intertwined lives of its female protagonists. Tina appreciates the seamless narrative and emotional depth, calling it a "classic work of noir fiction."

F. Silver Elite by Danny Francis

[55:23] Hannah:
"A dystopian trilogy starter featuring Wren Darlington, a psychic rebel fighting a cruel government from within the enemy ranks."

Hannah introduces "Silver Elite", the first book in a new dystopian trilogy. The story centers on Wren Darlington, who possesses powerful psychic abilities and works covertly within the enemy's military structure to undermine a tyrannical regime. The hosts compare it to classics like The Hunger Games, noting its "enemies to lovers" trope and the intense internal conflict faced by the protagonist. While acknowledging the challenges of distinguishing it within a saturated genre, they express optimism about its potential appeal to fans of dystopian romance.

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VI. Conclusion

In this episode of Book Talk, etc., Tina and Hannah offer a thoughtful exploration of literary heroines, balancing their critiques of existing tropes with enthusiastic recommendations of nuanced and diverse female protagonists. From historical dramas and chilling horror novellas to groundbreaking transgender narratives, they provide a rich tapestry of books that highlight the strength, complexity, and resilience of fictional women. Their discussions not only guide listeners towards compelling reads but also inspire deeper reflections on what makes a heroine truly memorable.

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Notable Quotes:

• Tina [06:32]:
  "What I think is so interesting is that Tony is talking... he's making me laugh."

• Hannah [09:22]:
  "You don't hear people say that you're gonna feel good after listening to true crime very often."

• Hannah [24:08]:
  "I really want them to have a really rich personality... bonus points if they are complex in some way or have flaws that make them more human."

• Hannah [37:02]:
  "I really enjoyed the aspect that we're following this character who has a very complicated relationship with her own mother."

• Hannah [42:56]:
  "It is a celebration of womanhood and all its multifaceted joy."

• Hannah [48:10]:
  "This is a gripping and deeply emotional ride from its first sentence to its shattering finale."

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Connect with the Hosts:

• Tina: @tbretc | TBR Etc on Instagram
• Hannah: @hanpickedbooks | Hand Picked Books on Instagram

Support the Podcast:

Join their Patreon community for exclusive content and bonus episodes at patreon.com/booktalketc.

Follow and Subscribe:

Find Book Talk, etc. on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and your favorite podcast app. Leave a review to support the show!

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Remember, everything's better with books!

Transcript

[Tina]

Anyway, doesn't matter. But I was like it was sticking in my. In my craw, you know what I mean? Because I knew she had brought a true crime podcast in like the second episode.

[Hannah]

What does that mean? Is that. Is that a phrase?

[Unknown]

Something in my craw.

[Tina]

Great. Yeah. Stuck in my cross.

[Unknown]

An idiom.

[Tina]

It means something irritating or bothering someone.

[Hannah]

What's a craw though?

[Tina]

The crop of a bird.

[Unknown]

A pouch where food is stored before digestion, obviously.

[Tina]

Welcome to Book Talk Etc.

[Unknown]

A podcast bound to grow your tbr.

[Tina]

I'm Tina from TBR Etc.

[Hannah]

And I'm Hannah from Hand Picked Books.

[Tina]

And this is a conversational podcast about.

[Unknown]

Books and more from two Midwest Mood readers who are easily distracted by new.

[Tina]

Releases and today are talking about literary heroines.

[Hannah]

If you enjoy listening, we'd love for you to follow us on Apple Podcasts or your favorite podcast app. And if you have a quick minute, please consider leaving us a review on Apple Podcasts or sharing us on social media. It truly helps us connect with other book lovers.

[Tina]

Hey everyone. It is the start of a new.

[Unknown]

Month, so we wanted to take the.

[Tina]

Time to invite you to join us on Patreon. And this month's commercial is going to be a little bit different, so bear with me. But we wanted to take a minute to send a sincere thank you to everyone that is a paying member of our Patreon community. It is not lost on us that a small part of our income gets to come from talking about books.

[Unknown]

And believe me when I say we.

[Tina]

Could not do this show without their support. And we frequently get pitched to have ads on our show. And just yesterday we turned down a pretty big person in the book space who wanted to advertise on our show because it is important to us to remain ad free and to keep costs low for members who are able to support us. $5 a month might not seem like a lot, but when enough listeners support us at that level, it truly makes all the difference. It helps us cover costs and allows us to keep doing what we love.

[Unknown]

Bringing you thoughtful Book talk without any interruptions.

[Tina]

So if you would like to sign up, Please head to patreon.com booktalk etc. Don't sign up via the Apple app or the Patreon app because you might be charged an extra fee through Apple. So be sure to sign up on the It's a much better way to do it that way. The $5 is $5 and for that money each month you'll get access to two bonus episodes in one recorded live event as well as invites to our Discord Server Facebook Group. We also have spreadsheets of all the books mentioned on the show and the bonus episodes and our patrons five Star Reads for May we're very excited to bring you our Niche Novels episode where we recommend books that are related to a particular subgenre. And you know May is Summer Bonanza season so our bonus episode for May will be even more Summer Bonanza picks and our live event is our bookstore browse with Novelette booksellers in Nashville, Tennessee. Our community read is a mutual favorite.

[Unknown]

Author Chuck Wendig's the Staircase in the.

[Tina]

Woods and we'll discuss that through our Discord at the end of May. And again, if this sounds like something.

[Unknown]

You are interested in, we would love to have you as a part of our community. Head to patreon.com booktalk etc or look for the link in our show notes.

[Tina]

And thank you for your support.

[Hannah]

Hi Hannah, Hi Tina. Thank you for talking about all of that. Our community is really a special place and I also just wanted to give my personal thank you to everyone who has made the place really, really special.

[Tina]

I absolutely love it and it is.

[Unknown]

A special time for Booktok etc 21 because it's been about a year since you've been on the show.

[Tina]

I think last May is when you started.

[Hannah]

It's my one year anniversary this month.

[Unknown]

It's your one year anniversary this month and happy anniversary. And it is also our 200th episode.

[Tina]

Today which is yes, actually insane. That is so much content. And you know, if you've been, I think there definitely are some folks that.

[Unknown]

Have been here from the beginning which is amazing. Thank you to our listeners.

[Tina]

Honestly, it's just such a special thing that we do and I love getting to talk about books. I love I get to work with.

[Unknown]

My husband on this.

[Tina]

He works very hard on our YouTube. YouTube videos which I'm going to plug again.

[Unknown]

Head over there if you want to see us talking live.

[Tina]

It's actually kind of funny. I'll put it on myself. Just. Yeah, I'm curious and I'm like this is interesting. I like watching us. Yeah, exactly.

[Unknown]

But anyway, I just wanted to acknowledge.

[Tina]

Your anniversary with us as well as the 200th episode.

[Hannah]

I genuinely can't believe it's been a year. At the same time it also feels like I've been a part of it longer. You know, it's like, yeah, feels like longer. But also I can't believe it's been a year.

[Unknown]

I know, it's crazy.

[Hannah]

It's so fun.

[Tina]

Well, I It is very. I'm glad you think so because I think it's really fun. It's always the best part of my week, I swear. And sometimes it's just really a comedy.

[Unknown]

Of errors to get here, to be.

[Tina]

Able to record and find. This time yesterday, somebody in our neighborhood was getting something done and it was just like the loud saw right at.

[Unknown]

The time we were about to record.

[Tina]

And I was like, no. And it woke up the baby. So anyway, I had to run back upstairs.

[Unknown]

So now we're recording at a different time. But it's happy hour for me, so.

[Tina]

I'm kind of glad. So I'm having a Cruz Blanca chalada lime and sea salt tropical lager. And I'm happy because it's like after work. Yeah, it's pretty good, actually. It's not bad at all.

[Unknown]

Now I'm gonna roll right into our.

[Tina]

Loving latelies because I have a really good one. I've been on a mission to re.

[Unknown]

Up my loving lately.

[Tina]

You know, I brought a ton to the show. 200 episodes. You run through a lot of loving latelies. But I have a new podcast recommendation for you.

[Unknown]

Oh yeah, this is a true crime podcast now, I think you do you have a true crime podcast today too?

[Hannah]

Yes, I do.

[Tina]

Okay, not that one. That would be weird.

[Hannah]

But it's fun that we kind of have like a matching loving lately.

[Tina]

I know.

[Unknown]

And so mine is called the High Roller Heist.

[Tina]

And it is about this man named Tony Carleo.

[Unknown]

And in the early morning hours of December 14, 2010, Tony Carleo will walk into the Bellagio Hotel and Casino on the Las Vegas Strip, adorned in a.

[Tina]

Full motorcycle, jumpsuit, gloves and a helmet.

[Unknown]

And pull a pistol, robbing a high stakes craps table of $1.5 million in casino chips.

[Tina]

And this is his story.

[Unknown]

It is an eight episode short podcast, came out last year.

[Tina]

What I think is so interesting is that Tony is talking.

[Unknown]

He is on record.

[Tina]

It's him, like, and not only that.

[Unknown]

His buddy is the one producing it.

[Tina]

And interviewing him, essentially not somebody that.

[Unknown]

Was involved in the crime, but somebody that he knows from his hometown.

[Tina]

Like when I tell you I binge these over course of two days, I feel like I can tell you their entire town. Story starts in Pueblo, Colorado, heads over to Las Vegas. But Tony is oddly so charming. Like he. I'm just listening to him, I'm like.

[Unknown]

No, yeah, I totally get it.

[Tina]

Like, I see why you thought you could do this.

[Hannah]

And you know, he's talking on the podcast.

[Unknown]

Yes.

[Tina]

Tony's like, yeah, and so I walked in and here's what I did. And he's Italian and he just has this great personality. He's just making me laugh. So this is fun. Over the course of eight episodes, right? Over the course of eight episodes, he's.

[Unknown]

A sort of making his case.

[Tina]

And you do find out at the.

[Unknown]

Very end what happens to him.

[Tina]

And I'm not going to say it because of course that's a part of the fun, but it makes sense, you know, that he's participating in this. And he says that participating in this podcast was cathartic. After he acknowledges, too, I will say.

[Unknown]

It would be annoying to listen to.

[Tina]

Him if he was, like, bragging and.

[Unknown]

Like, had no accountability.

[Tina]

It's not that at all. He can reflect back and think about, like, oh, my God, this was a really bad decision. But it's also funny.

[Hannah]

That's a relief.

[Unknown]

He's justifying, like, well, yeah, of course.

[Tina]

If I had known, I wouldn't have done that. Guys, like, you know, and he's like.

[Unknown]

Reacting to some of the videos that.

[Tina]

They got of him. And like, anyway, it was really good. Now, I will say, if you like.

[Unknown]

True crime, but want to break from the overly graphic, this is a great option.

[Tina]

It's well produced. Tony's friend, who is, like, on mic.

[Unknown]

With him, has such a great podcast voice. I'm like, how funny that this is your buddy.

[Tina]

Like the guy that's producing the podcast. Literally, like, saw it on Good Morning America. Like, that's my friend. What's he doing? And so, oddly, again, Tony's very funny and I was low key rooting for him, even though I shouldn't.

[Unknown]

It's like, you're a thief.

[Hannah]

But also seems like a likable guy, especially if he's on the podcast.

[Unknown]

Right?

[Tina]

He's a very engaging one. Now, I will say nobody gets hurt in this. Like, there's not a bit he was able to do this and nobody got hurt. Which, again, I think is very interesting. He also does something after he gets.

[Unknown]

The chips that will shock you.

[Tina]

And I'm not going to tell you what because you don't need to know.

[Unknown]

Listen to the podcast.

[Tina]

But anyway, he is a funny, great storyteller.

[Unknown]

I loved the ending.

[Tina]

I feel like I got this really.

[Unknown]

Compact, nice story and I had, like.

[Tina]

A warm, fuzzy feeling in my heart when I finished. If you're somebody that likes Vegas or.

[Unknown]

If you have a trip to Vegas coming up, definitely listen to this.

[Tina]

Or even if you don't like those things, I still recommend that you listen to this.

[Unknown]

This is the podcast called the High Roller Heist.

[Hannah]

You don't hear people say that you're gonna feel good after listening to a true crime very often.

[Tina]

Right?

[Hannah]

So I am very intrigued by this story.

[Tina]

And they also had, like, not only.

[Unknown]

Did they have Tony, they also had.

[Tina]

The cop on there, and he's like, kind of laughing at the guy. They had one of the accomplices on there.

[Unknown]

Like, it was just interesting.

[Tina]

I'm like, how'd you get all these people to talk anyway? It was really good.

[Hannah]

But apparently you find out how you.

[Tina]

Got all these people to talk for sure do. I feel like I know. And like, they talk about the forensics and how he got caught, which I loved. I thought that was really a fun element to it. And what a good time I had.

[Hannah]

Listening to this and the Bellagio. I mean, like, people who've never been to Vegas or don't know anything about Vegas know what? The Bellagio is also exciting.

[Unknown]

This happened on December 14, 2010. I was in Vegas in December 2010. I just had to do the math.

[Tina]

Because I was like, maybe that was 20 2009. Actually, no, I just did it anyway. It does not matter. But I was like, wow. It's like, maybe in the same room is this guy. Anyway, I was very much into this book, and I thought it was a great. I mean, I was very much into.

[Unknown]

This podcast and I thought it was a great time.

[Tina]

It kind of reads like a book, frankly. You get the beginning, middle, end. There's highs, there's lows, and I felt good after listening.

[Hannah]

Yeah, I again, like, you don't listen to a lot of true crime where you're like, I feel really good after that. So very curious. I am also bringing true crime, like you mentioned, and while this one is similar in the fact that it doesn't involve murder, it is not similar in the fact that you're definitely not going to feel super good coming out of this one. And that is Sweet Bobby, My Catfish Nightmare. This is a podcast. The podcast is called Sweet Bobby. I believe it has six episodes. So it's a serial podcast, but there's also a Netflix documentary. And it's just one episode, or not episode, but one. It's like a film. It's considered a documentary. That's just one thing to watch. Sometimes they'll have, like, three episodes. This one is not. It's just one. It's about an hour and a half. So. Sweet Bobby, My Catfish Nightmare is a British true crime documentary that was filmed in October of 2024. After the success of the podcast, which was released from Tortoise Media around 2021, I want to say so the podcast came first, it's a little bit older. And then they made the documentary and it tells the story of Kirit asai, who was a woman who was deceived by someone in a very intricate catfishing scheme. And if you're like me and didn't know anything about this case, I recommend not Googling it or reading the full synopsis on Netflix or the podcast show. That's what I did. And I was shocked by the twists and turns. It says that it's a catfishing story, which seems kind of boring, but there are some twists and turns. You're gonna end up infuriated. It left my jaw on the ground for several different reasons. I also again, I mentioned I like that this wasn't a mini series, the actual documentary. It was just a 90 minute documentary that gave you the full story. But if you want more of a performance. I did like the serial podcast. I thought it was great and it gives you more of the full picture. So it kind of. Well, you could be like me and you do both. I listened to the podcast and watched the documentary. Cause I was so interested in the story. But if you want to just do one or the other, I would do the documentary. If you're more of a. I just want the high level and I would do the podcast if you want more of the performance and if you want more detail. Curate is in both the documentary and the podcast series. And she says more and has a little bit more to say in the podcast. So if you want more from her perspective also you can listen to the podcast. So. Yeah, but I really enjoyed both. I literally watched the documentary and listened to the entire podcast series in one day because that's how I am. And the documentary is available on Netflix. So if you have Netflix, you'll be able to watch it. That is sweet, Bobby. My catfish nightmare. It is a wild ride.

[Tina]

I frequently ask on my Instagram and other places for people to recommend true.

[Unknown]

Crime podcast to me.

[Tina]

And this one gets mentioned almost every time. I've never listened to it and I did not realize that the tagline or the subtitle is My Catfish Nightmare, which I quite like.

[Hannah]

Yeah, I like it too.

[Tina]

Yeah, I like that.

[Hannah]

Shall we talk about.

[Tina]

Okay.

[Hannah]

Our community read?

[Tina]

I think we shall. Okay. And I have a feeling this is going to be a loosely unpopular opinion.

[Unknown]

I don't know.

[Tina]

Yeah, I'm not sure. But our community read is say you'll Remember me by.

[Hannah]

What did you bring in the book.

[Tina]

I know, and it's even a library copy. I was able to put a hold on it.

[Unknown]

Look, who is. Who is an organized queen.

[Tina]

It's me now.

[Hannah]

Okay.

[Tina]

Okay.

[Unknown]

Well, here's the thing.

[Tina]

Let me tell you what the book is about. There is no such thing as a.

[Unknown]

Perfect guy, but Xavier Rush comes disastrously close. He is a gorgeous veterinarian giving Greek God vibes, all while cuddling a tiny kitten.

[Tina]

Immediate. Yes.

[Unknown]

That is, until Xavier opens his mouth and proves that even sculpted gods can say the absolute wrong thing. And there's nothing that Samantha loves more than proving a jerk wrong. Unless, of course, he can admit that he made a mistake. But after one incredible and seemingly endless date, Samantha is forced to admit the truth, that her family is in crisis and any kind of relationship would be impossible.

[Tina]

Samantha begs Xavier to forget her, to.

[Unknown]

Remember their night as a perfect moment.

[Tina]

As crushing as that may be.

[Unknown]

Only no amount of distance or time is enough to forget what's between them. And the only thing better than one single perfect memory is to make a.

[Tina]

Life and even a love, worth remembering.

[Unknown]

I've actually never read the synopsis before.

[Hannah]

I haven't either. And I was just about to say maybe I'm glad that I didn't before reading it, because I don't know if I would have picked it up.

[Tina]

I don't like it. I don't like the synopsis.

[Hannah]

It's a little too, like. Is kitschy the right word?

[Tina]

Yes.

[Hannah]

No. Is that.

[Unknown]

That fits.

[Tina]

It's, like, cutesy. It's like this part.

[Hannah]

Gods can make mistakes.

[Tina]

That one.

[Unknown]

And a tiny kitten.

[Tina]

Immediate. Yes. That's where I would have tapped out. And I would have had this not been our community read. I think for both of us.

[Unknown]

I think we landed at about three.

[Tina]

And a half stars.

[Hannah]

Three and a half.

[Tina]

Okay.

[Unknown]

And I am not. I've only read one other Abby Jimenez.

[Tina]

Book, and it was fine. No, no, I'm sorry.

[Unknown]

I did enjoy it. I did enjoy the one that I had read previously.

[Hannah]

Let me know The Happily Ever after playlist, Craig. Thank you.

[Unknown]

Yep. The Happily Ever after playlist.

[Tina]

I did enjoy that one. I didn't like this one that much. I don't think it was for me. I will let you talk and then I can react to that because I feel like I've been saying too much.

[Hannah]

No, I agree with what you said. This was not my favorite of hers. This was my least favorite of hers, actually, from all of the ones that I personally have read. And as you know, and many of our listeners know, I'm definitely an advocate for Abby Jimenez. I think that she is capable and has written like five star romance books. This one, we talked about the synopsis being very cutesy. A lot of the first part of this book was also very cutesy. And there were a lot of TikTok references and acotar references and things that, like, I don't mind that here and there, but it also felt a little bit weird, juxtaposed with the intensity of the other things in the book with her family being in crisis. And also, Xavier has a couple of things going on that are heavier and that, like, cutesy language and TikTok speak didn't seem to match with the other things that were going on. And that was one of the things that I didn't love about this one. And I think you and I also talked about this. I think you felt. Similarly, the characters didn't have a ton of personality, which seemed a little odd considering all of these other things that were going on in their lives. You would think that their personalities would show up and how they navigated those situations, but they didn't really agree.

[Tina]

100.

[Unknown]

And that was the strange thing to me.

[Tina]

The things that I know about Samantha.

[Unknown]

Is that she worked for a mustard.

[Tina]

Company and really loved her job. She got to make mean tweets or mean exes, like the Wendy's account does.

[Hannah]

Yes.

[Tina]

And I knew that she cared for her family and fought with her brother. Honestly, I can't tell you a single other thing. I'm like, she had no friends.

[Hannah]

Yeah.

[Tina]

And granted, she moved, but she didn't care. I'm like, what's this?

[Unknown]

What's going on here? He had some friends, which I gather.

[Tina]

Are going to be characters in the.

[Unknown]

Rest of this series, which, fair. Whatever that works.

[Tina]

But also the only defining factors for him are what happened to him in.

[Unknown]

His past, which you do find out.

[Tina]

And the fact that he works basically 24 7. So they were just sort of lacking.

[Unknown]

In characterization for me. Of course, they immediately loved each other.

[Tina]

After, like, the first, you know, kind of initial snarkiness, which I don't love snarkiness. Anyway. I think I text you. I was like, I don't think I love a grumpy character. And then I did warm to Xavier. Yeah.

[Hannah]

Because he's not grumpy forever.

[Tina]

He's not grumpy forever. I did not really warm to Samantha.

[Unknown]

I will say I applaud the author for including in the very beginning a.

[Tina]

Pretty complete list of content Warnings, because this is a rom com. She does tackle some serious themes. All of them are listed. For those of you that think it's kind of a spoiler, it does spoil some things in it. So I didn't read them, but I was looking back like, oh, yes, that makes sense.

[Unknown]

And I am glad that she included them.

[Hannah]

She does mention, too. So I listened to the audiobook and. Which I don't always do for romance. I thought the narrator did a pretty good job. But at the very beginning, when she's listing out those content warnings, she says these content warnings are spoilers. So if you don't want the content warnings, feel free to skip ahead. But I'm going to start them now.

[Tina]

Yeah.

[Hannah]

And then she goes into it. So she kind of gives you the opportunity to have both to either read the content warnings or not. Which I think is great, because that is kind of an evergreen conversation in the bookish space of people wanting them and not wanting them and not knowing how to kind of toe that line.

[Tina]

Exactly. I think that's so perfectly said. I think more books should do that, honestly. Because I think it's like a way to really, instead of putting all of the onus on the reader, like, sort of give some responsibility to the author's back and then readers can choose to.

[Unknown]

Read it or not.

[Tina]

I think we did. So we have done this one for our community read. We had that conversation two nights ago. And by and large, people enjoyed it. There were some people in our camp that were like, yeah, it was fine. There were others that loved it. And I love that.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Tina]

I will say I love that it.

[Unknown]

Was so easy to read. And I don't say that as a dig.

[Tina]

I just love that I would, like, turn this on, so to speak, or open my book at night in my Kindle and just read a few pages and all of a sudden I'm like, I'm 40% through. Like, I do appreciate that. Overall, I don't recommend this.

[Unknown]

I think she probably has stronger titles.

[Tina]

But I'm not mad that I read it. I like that she took a break from Minnesota. Most of this or not all of it, but a lot of it takes place in California. And I like some of the places that they went to in California. But, you know, overall, three and a half stars.

[Unknown]

It was fine.

[Hannah]

Agree. I echo your feelings and I give it three. I think I'm landing on three stars.

[Tina]

Yeah.

[Hannah]

I have gone back and forth. I almost even like bumped it up to four. And then after thinking about it, I was like, no, I think it's going to land at three. Yeah. There were just more things as I spent some time away from it that kind of annoyed me or bothered me. That said, I actually will continue in this series as well because I think I've had a more positive track record with her books than negative. And so I'm excited to see what she does, even with different tropes or different, like, plots.

[Tina]

Yeah.

[Hannah]

With a different trope and plot. I'm curious to see what she does. So I'll continue reading.

[Tina]

Yeah. And I'm curious for me, too.

[Unknown]

Okay.

[Tina]

I was saying three and a half because I for some reason thought that's where you landed. I think I gave it three as well.

[Unknown]

Doesn't matter, really. We're splitting hairs.

[Tina]

But I sort of agree. I think, anyway, it was fine. Well, I.

[Hannah]

It was mid.

[Unknown]

It was mid.

[Tina]

Will I continue it? Probably not, but that's okay. I'm glad that this exists, and I'm hopeful that it will find the right reader. And this book was say youy'll Remember.

[Unknown]

Me by Abby Jimenez.

[Hannah]

Good chat.

[Tina]

Good chat.

[Unknown]

See you later.

[Tina]

Now. It's actually really funny. And we didn't plan this, but our topic today are literary heroines.

[Unknown]

And I would not call this somebody.

[Tina]

That I liked to read as a heroine. Personally, I. I just didn't like Samantha. And I feel anti feminist, saying, oh.

[Hannah]

I see what you're saying.

[Tina]

Yeah. I think it's funny that we're talking about, like, our, you know, what do we like in a woman?

[Hannah]

What do we like in a heroine?

[Tina]

Mm. I guess it's good to have a foil and show you what I didn't care for.

[Unknown]

So when we're creating our episodes, we.

[Tina]

Have a big spreadsheet that we work from, and sometimes we tie it into.

[Unknown]

Holidays that are coming up or just different events that are coming up. And so for this one, we were.

[Tina]

Thinking about, you know, Mother's Day. Is that next weekend?

[Unknown]

It is next weekend, isn't it? Oh, gosh.

[Tina]

Okay. And so we were.

[Hannah]

It'll be the upcoming weekend when this episode drops.

[Tina]

Yeah. So it's this Sunday.

[Unknown]

Better get your flower orders placed now.

[Tina]

Or whatever it is that you do. But we wanted to do this episode because it got us thinking about heroin.

[Unknown]

That we like both mothers, not mothers.

[Tina]

And sort of what makes a compelling heroine. What do you think about that?

[Unknown]

What do you like to see in a heroine?

[Hannah]

I think for me, it definitely depends on the genre. And I would say, you know, we just talked about a romance book, and I'm thinking about the Things that I didn't like about Samantha, and that's just that she didn't really have much of a personality. I think universally across all genres, I really want my heroines to just be really fully developed. And I would say, like, for characters in general, but I think especially for women, for heroines specifically, I really want them to have a really rich personality. I think with romance, I'm still figuring out what I do and don't like. With my heroines, I honestly think I'm not super particular as to what their personality is like, so long as they actually have one. And I also bonus points if they are complex in some way or have flaws that make them more human or more lovable or even not lovable, but just richer in their character development, and especially if those flaws are a part of the plot and drive that plot along, I tend to really enjoy that.

[Tina]

I think you're.

[Unknown]

You're right.

[Tina]

It's almost difficult to describe what it is I like in a heroine, because it's one of those things. I'm like, oh, when I see it, I know it. And then when I don't see it, I'm like, no, I don't. I'm not.

[Unknown]

For me, I call it rooting for somebody.

[Tina]

I feel like, even if it's, like, wrongs that they're doing or bad things that they're doing, am I rooting for them? Am I. Did the author give them enough of.

[Unknown]

A backstory and give them enough of.

[Tina]

Like you say, a personality to get.

[Unknown]

Me to be invested in what they're.

[Tina]

Talking about and to want to see this outcome? Sometimes they're pretty flat, and that can be fine.

[Unknown]

Not every book has to have this compelling heroine.

[Tina]

And, you know, I think it was almost hard for maybe both of us.

[Unknown]

Certainly for me, to pick books for.

[Tina]

This, because I'm like, oh, what if.

[Unknown]

I start reading it and the heroine.

[Tina]

Is not somebody that I don't like and I don't like them?

[Hannah]

Exactly right.

[Tina]

And so that can.

[Unknown]

It can kind of get complicated.

[Tina]

I think that growing up, though, you know, if you think about some of.

[Unknown]

The books that you read, maybe when.

[Tina]

You were younger, there were plenty of.

[Unknown]

Literary heroines that you could be drawn to. I'm thinking of Anne of Green Gables. I did all of the Babysitter's Club books.

[Tina]

I did. I was thinking too, though. I was like, well, Fear Street. I don't know if the protagonists were the most compelling in those books, but.

[Unknown]

I really enjoyed them.

[Hannah]

I mean, if you really enjoyed them.

[Tina]

You know, I guess they're I guess they're some of my favorite protagonists, right? No, I think with the Fear Street.

[Unknown]

I just like the being scared and.

[Tina]

The crazy parts of it, you know?

[Hannah]

Yeah. I think that I don't necessarily have to root for my heroines. In fact, I'm bringing a book in this episode that is a motherhood story at its core. And she's very complicated, but because of those things that make her really complex and fleshed out, that's kind of what I found compelling about it in my horror and literary fiction. I absolutely love an unhinged character, female lead. That to me, even if they are being unhinged and making poor decisions, I almost am rooting for them. And then sometimes it makes me question myself. But I do love that in my horror and literary fiction, specifically, like when I brought Hot Air a couple of weeks ago by Marcy Germanski. None of those characters are likable in the book, but I appreciated that they brought out such interesting points of view in being a woman that do. I don't want to say make us unlikable, but just complicated. They're just complicated aspects of being a woman. And, yeah, they were highlighted in this negative way, but it also made you think about those things and be reflective. And so I can appreciate that as well.

[Tina]

Yeah, I think I agree with supporting women's wrongs, as it were. I love books like that that are able to do that. Well, when you're like, I know this is not somebody I should be rooting for, but here I am rooting for them. I. In my heroines, I like when they give me visceral reactions, when they're like.

[Unknown]

Something about the writing or their actions or whatever it is, like, really pulls me in.

[Tina]

I like when heroines are able to react to situations.

[Unknown]

I'm saying heroines, it's the authors, right, that create these heroines.

[Tina]

When they're able to create these scenes.

[Unknown]

And settings where it puts me in.

[Tina]

It, and I'm like, what would I do? How would I react? Or like, holy cow, I would never do that. But, like, also, what if I did do that? Like, I'm like, I'm liking that I get to explore that through these heroines.

[Hannah]

Like, what would I do? Situation, too.

[Tina]

I love that. And I think there are also some.

[Unknown]

Tropes that I don't love when I'm reading.

[Tina]

And when I come across it, I'm like, oh, okay. You know, one specifically, it's tried and true in my psychological thriller space. It's the woman with amnesia trope. Right. And she's so broken, and she doesn't know if it's real or not. And I say that I don't. Am not drawn to that. But at the same time, a lot.

[Unknown]

Of times I am drawn to those.

[Tina]

Stories because I think sometimes they could be really interesting and compelling and do really fun things. But that is one thing I will say that I'm like, eek.

[Unknown]

Can we do something else?

[Tina]

Like, sure. You know? And it's even worse when the woman's.

[Unknown]

Like, being gaslit by her husband.

[Tina]

I'm like, okay, we've done this, right?

[Hannah]

Yeah. Especially when it's the husband, which, as we know, is.

[Unknown]

It's always.

[Hannah]

So often it's always the husband.

[Tina]

Sometimes it's just ghosts, but a lot of times it's the husband.

[Hannah]

But either way, it's hard because an amnesia trope allows for more creativity in one sense, because there's a gap in memory. And so there's a lot that the author can play with in that. But I feel like so often they don't, and it's either supernatural or some other twist that feels cheaper than it could have been.

[Tina]

Yes.

[Hannah]

But I have seen it creatively done in the past before, too, I think. For me, I don't know if there are any tropes specifically with women that I am particularly bothered by. I do struggle with characters with heroines that are more type A personality. Not because I think there's anything wrong with that. I'm just so not that way that it can make it feel really hard for me to really connect with that character.

[Unknown]

That makes sense.

[Hannah]

And so it's not even necessarily a. Like, I don't like that, or I don't like these types of people. It's just so not in my wheelhouse that sometimes I have a hard time connecting with characters like that, especially in romance. I don't mind it as much in other genres, but earlier I was trying to think of what I didn't like in romance. But it's. Again, it's not something where it's like, I don't like type A people. It's just a lot of times when I read romance specifically, I want to feel really connected with that character. And it's very hard for me to do that when they're constantly, you know, organizing and making lists and wisely considering every decision they're gonna make.

[Tina]

Right. You're like, oh, well, that is.

[Hannah]

I'm like, just be with them. It's not that hard. Why are you being so smart?

[Tina]

Right. That is so rational of you. How Rational of you.

[Hannah]

Stop. You don't need to pack the diaper bag. You just need to, like, throw a diaper and a couple wipes in there.

[Tina]

And you're good to go, baby. Yeah, no, I'm like that, too. I am a type B gal myself. I think the types of heroines I.

[Unknown]

Am not drawn to are the ones.

[Tina]

That are like, I'm not like other girls. You know, Like, I'm just like.

[Hannah]

So that's just annoying.

[Tina]

It's not like other girls. Right. Or she's so beautiful, she didn't even know it. Like, that sort of thing. I'm like, oh, come on, give us something different.

[Hannah]

Or if the author just describes her as, like, mousy.

[Tina]

Oh, yeah, like the. What is that movie where they, like, give this obviously beautiful woman a makeover and then all of a sudden it's like, oh, she takes her glasses off, she's stunning. Do you know what I mean?

[Hannah]

She's all that.

[Tina]

She's all that. Yes.

[Hannah]

Freddie Prince. Not. Is that Freddie Prince Jr.

[Tina]

I. I think so.

[Unknown]

Rachel.

[Tina]

That one actress, Rachel something or another. She's in all those movies.

[Hannah]

She's an artist.

[Tina]

Exactly.

[Unknown]

And she's mousy. But then all of a sudden, like.

[Tina]

Oh, my gosh, she gets a makeover.

[Hannah]

It's. It's that movie where she's walking down the stairs.

[Tina]

Yes.

[Hannah]

This will be great, viewers. She's walking down the stairs and Kiss Me by Sixpence, none the Richer is playing and she's walking down the stairs and she's had her mousy makeover and Freddie Prinze Jr. Standing there like, wow, you're pretty now.

[Tina]

You are pretty now. Oh, my God. Gasp. Yeah, that. I can't. Those make me. Right. Fun, Fun side quest there. Yeah.

[Unknown]

That sort of character just. I'm over it.

[Tina]

I'm not into it. And I can't think of anything else.

[Unknown]

I think.

[Tina]

Is there any genre where you find the characters, where you tend to like.

[Unknown]

The characters the most, where you can.

[Tina]

Sort of say, I bet I'm going to pick this up and enjoy reading about her?

[Hannah]

Well, it's hard to know if I'm going to end up enjoying one of the characters in general. But I do think that I like family stories, and I think that in family stories, like, I'm thinking of, Claire Lombardo writes family stories like this, or even Ann Tyler, where probably one of the women I'm going to relate to a lot or I'm going to really appreciate their character. I feel like when you have family.

[Tina]

Stories, you get A lot of options.

[Hannah]

Yeah. They're so richly drawn, and there's usually complex drama. And it's really interesting to see how the different women navigate those hard situations. And they're usually so different. And so I feel like if I'm looking for a story that explores that, family stories are a great option.

[Tina]

Oh, that's so smart. I agree. And I also find that it's. And family stories can be hit or miss.

[Unknown]

For me, being an only child, sometimes.

[Tina]

I'm like, I don't get it. Just be friends, be nice to each other. But I was leading you because I.

[Unknown]

Was going to sort of lead us.

[Tina]

Into my first book. Because the genre in which I find I really gravitate toward a lot of.

[Unknown]

The main characters, the heroines are easy to root for, is in historical fiction.

[Tina]

I feel like that if I.

[Unknown]

If a historical fiction book gets me.

[Tina]

To root for the main character, I'm.

[Unknown]

Probably going to be interested.

[Tina]

But my first book that I brought.

[Unknown]

For this episode that I'm holding is the island of Sea Women by Lisa See.

[Tina]

So I've never read this author, and.

[Unknown]

Honestly, I've seen this book around. I didn't know much about it until Mood Reader Happy Hour, when one of our patrons, Melissa, said it was her favorite book of the year.

[Tina]

I was like, well, tell me more. And she also said that on this.

[Unknown]

Island, the women are the ones that go out and fish and work and do diving, and the men are the ones that stay at home with the children.

[Tina]

I thought, well, I am interested in that.

[Unknown]

And then I was walking the next day and I found it in a little free library.

[Tina]

And I thought, if that's not a sign, I don't know what is.

[Unknown]

Now, this one is set on the Korean island of Jeju, and it follows two characters, primarily Mi Ja and Young.

[Tina]

Sook, who are two girls from very different backgrounds as they begin working with.

[Unknown]

Their villages, all female diving collective. And over many decades, through the Japanese colonialism of the 1930s and 40s, World War II, the Korean War, all the way through the era of cell phones and wetsuits, the women divers, they all.

[Tina]

Develop these really, really strong bonds. Now, the women are the best of friends, but their differences become pretty important as they grow older.

[Unknown]

Because Mi Ja is the daughter of.

[Tina]

A Japanese coll forever marking her.

[Unknown]

And Young Sook was born into a long line of haenya, and she will inherit her mother's position leading the divers. After hundreds of dives and years of friendship, forces outside of their control will push their relationship to the breaking Point.

[Tina]

So this one, I'm looking at strong female heroines via the point of view of two women.

[Unknown]

Motherhood is also a huge theme in this one. And.

[Tina]

And female friendship is a really big theme. This is a gorgeous story that spans.

[Unknown]

Many decades, and it follows these women.

[Tina]

And kind of takes them through their lives together. And what I love is that while you're reading about this, you are sort of flashing forward to a day in.

[Unknown]

2008, and you're not quite sure in the beginning who you're talking about or.

[Tina]

Who is there in 2008. But you know that she survived. She's in her 80s and she has a long lineage. And so you're like, okay, who is this woman, woman? And why are we following her? You know?

[Unknown]

And then again, the story kind of goes back and then is told pretty.

[Tina]

Linearly through this story.

[Unknown]

This one really brought history to life. I will say this is not a light, fluffy read.

[Tina]

It is very devastating in lots of sections. And what I thought was interesting is that in the beginning, I thought the big thing was happening, and then another thing, big thing happened, and then another. So, like you, she did a really.

[Unknown]

Good job with pacing in this one. And there's a lot of reveals and there are a lot of shocking moments.

[Tina]

Where I'm like, what?

[Unknown]

But the big thing. I'm holding the book up to Hannah.

[Tina]

And you can see the big thing.

[Unknown]

I only have this much book left.

[Tina]

So it happens on page 250 where I'm like, how are we.

[Unknown]

How are we going to fix this? How are we going to come back from this?

[Tina]

So kudos to the author.

[Unknown]

They kept me engaged the entire time.

[Tina]

This has everything I like in historical fiction.

[Unknown]

Emotional depth, insight into the past, a story that sticks with you.

[Tina]

And I just love that.

[Unknown]

I learned about Jeju island, and I.

[Tina]

Had never really known much about that.

[Unknown]

Part of the world and about what happened during this time period. Again, you are much brought into the war, and the devastation is not just what happens between the two women.

[Tina]

It's not like interpersonal devastation. You're in wartime with them, right? Not exactly, because they're not fighting themselves, but they definitely, of course, are affected. The.

[Unknown]

The numbers are staggering.

[Tina]

When you and she shares this in the novel, like, how many lives were.

[Unknown]

Lost, how many people were made into refugees? I think if you enjoyed homegoing or.

[Tina]

Pachinko, that this one will resonate, I think. I don't know if a lot of people have read this.

[Unknown]

I just picked it up because of our patron.

[Tina]

But if you've not read this yet.

[Unknown]

And you like historical fiction. You like strong female characters, you like female friendship. And if you like stories that will.

[Tina]

Make you shed a tear or two, you should pick this one up.

[Unknown]

That is the island of Sea Women by Lisa.

[Hannah]

See, I'm really glad that you brought this one. It reminded me, while you were talking about it of a picture book. You know, I love my picture books for my kids. It's called the Ocean a Hanyeo Mermaid Story and it is set on Jeju Island.

[Unknown]

No way.

[Hannah]

It's about her and her, I want to say grandmother, but there's generations of these women in the story. It's a picture book. It's about diving. It's a story about bravery and, you know, learning how to do things on your own as a young girl. But if you want like a picture book to pair your reading experience with your kiddos and add a book to your kids collection, I recommend picking up that picture book as well. But that was my experience in learning about that part of history. Oh, I love that. And so hearing you talk about that book, I'm like, oh, I should read that one. Read the grown up version. Yeah.

[Tina]

Oh, how fun.

[Unknown]

All right, Good recommendation.

[Hannah]

Yeah, yours too. My first one is also historical fiction and it's funny because when you mentioned that, I was like, you're right. Historical fiction is such a great place to go to, especially to learn about women in history. And mine is the Story She Left behind by Patti Callahan. Henry. This is a pretty new release. This is a multi points of view historical fiction novel with a mystery at its center and a mother daughter story as well, which made me pick it and choose it for this episode. It really takes the lead here with the plot. It was inspired by a true literary mystery which also adds another fun element to the story. In 1927 we have 8 year old Clara Harrington. Her world is turned upside down when her mother, Bronwyn Newcastle, a literary prodigy who stunned the nation with a best selling book in a made up language, vanishes off the coast of South Carolina. She is left with only memories and the unfinished sequel to her mother's legendary work. Clara grows up yearning for answers that go beyond the public fascination with Bronwyn's disappearance. Parents. By 1952, Clara is an illustrator and now she is a mother herself. And a man in London has claimed to have found a dictionary of Bronwyn's lost language. Drawn by the chance to unravel the mystery, Clara and her daughter Winnie journey to England only to arrive during the deadly Great smog. As Winnie's health deteriorates, they seek refuge in the Lake District, where Clara must finally confront the truth about her mother, her legacy, and the story left. Left untold. So what I thought was really unique about this one is that although it's historical fiction, it almost read like a thriller at times. There was enough to this mystery and also enough to other aspects of the story that were moving at a really fast pace and some moments that actually had me like very anxious about what was going to happen to these characters, that it was really compelling. Not that that historical fiction is not compelling, but it doesn't often have that, oh my gosh, what is going to happen next? How are they going to get through this? Like some very intense moments and some very intense moments between this mother and this daughter. I also really enjoyed the aspect that we're following. This character who has a very complicated relationship with her own mother, who has disappeared from her life when she was a young child, and now she is mothering and parenting a young daughter who was the same age that she was when her mother disappeared. So some very interesting character dynamics, specifically with motherhood at its center. So it ended up being really perfect for this episode, especially with Mother's Day coming up, because that's such a big part of this story. But I really liked Clara as a character. I thought that she was a really strong lead here. There also was was some romance, which I love, and it definitely didn't take a front seat to this novel, but it was enough to have something else for me to be rooting for outside of the mystery and the overall plot. I really enjoyed this and when I was done reading it, I set it down and I was like, that was really great. Thumbs up. Not an all time favorite, but definitely a really compelling story with great character. I have since forgotten a little bit about it. It's a little bit fuzzy, so I don't know if that just speaks to season of my life that I'm in or how many books I'm consuming or if maybe it just wasn't a book that really stood out to me enough for it to be memorable. But I do remember when I was done with this one, really enjoyed it. I thought that it had great characters and a good mystery and I enjoyed my reading experience while I was reading it. So I think I would definitely recommend this one, even though it's not an all time favorite. And that is the story she Left behind by Patty Callahan. Henry.

[Tina]

I am excited you read that one. I. I heard really good things about that author's last book.

[Unknown]

And so I was curious.

[Tina]

I think it came through on one of our, like ALC's advanced listener through Libro. And so I was like, huh, wonder about this one.

[Hannah]

So that's how I listened to it. And the audio was great. So highly recommend.

[Unknown]

Excellent. Speaking of great audio, I am so excited to tell you all about my next book.

[Tina]

It is Woodworking.

[Hannah]

Oh, yay.

[Unknown]

By Emily St. James.

[Tina]

And I did a combo read with this one.

[Unknown]

The audio is fantastic.

[Tina]

The audio is really, really good.

[Unknown]

Okay, let me try and do this book justice.

[Tina]

And this book is about Erica.

[Unknown]

Erica's 35 years old, recently divorced and trans. Not that she's told anyone yet though, because she lives in Mitchell, South Dakota, and it's not exactly bursting with other trans women. Instead, she keeps to herself, teaches by.

[Tina]

Day and directs community theater by night, and doesn't really unpack things super well.

[Unknown]

Despite knowing what she knows. Until she meets Abigail hawks. Abigail is 17 and Mitchell High's resident political dissident and the only trans girl.

[Tina]

All capital letters. It is a role she plays faultlessly.

[Unknown]

Albeit a little reluctant.

[Tina]

Abigail is also annoyed by the idea.

[Unknown]

Of spending her senior year secretly guiding her English teacher through her transition.

[Tina]

But Abigail remembers how she felt when she first came out and decides to essentially serve as a mentor to her teacher. And they have this unlikely friendship that evolves. And the more that they spend time together, naturally, the more the community begins to question it.

[Unknown]

And both women and those closest to them will come to realize that sometimes there is nothing more radical than letting the world see who you really are.

[Tina]

This is a debut.

[Unknown]

This book does not read like a debut.

[Tina]

It is a coming of age story.

[Unknown]

About the awkwardness of growing up, about.

[Tina]

Finding your identity, and about having the.

[Unknown]

Courage to really be loud about who it is that you know that you are. It is a celebration of womanhood and all its multifaceted joy.

[Tina]

And I'm quoting on that last sentence now. At first, somebody, a bunch of patrons or listeners told me to read this one.

[Unknown]

And at first I was not super.

[Tina]

Into it because I was like, woodworking?

[Unknown]

What does that mean? Are they teaching shop?

[Tina]

Like, is it a shop class that we're in? But no, I'm actually really glad that.

[Unknown]

I learned about this because it. This novel explores the idea of woodworking, where trans people who can pass decide.

[Tina]

To keep their identity hidden to avoid coming out. And they essentially, quote, unquote, disappear into the woodwork. And I'm like, oh my gosh, I love that. I. I'm glad I knew that. I wish I would have known that.

[Unknown]

Before, but I had no idea what that term meant.

[Tina]

This book, talk about a character driven story with characters that you will love that are fully fleshed out now. You might not love them, you might not love all aspects of them, but.

[Unknown]

You will come to know them.

[Tina]

This book is very emotional but also funny. It's not a coming out story necessarily because this book, Erica knows who she is, Erica knows she's trans. It's just everyone else that doesn't know that. And I thought that was really interesting.

[Unknown]

It was very interesting to read about a character who is coming out later in life. She's 35, she's divorced.

[Tina]

And one thing that I was initially.

[Unknown]

Nervous about, that I think a lot of readers are going to be nervous.

[Tina]

About, is the relationship between Erika and Abigail.

[Unknown]

Let me be clear, there's no funny business here.

[Tina]

It is not that story at all. They are mentors, really. That's sort of what it feels like. And they're both great characters. Abigail is 17 and she very much reads like a 17 year old girl in this one. And what I love is that the sections with Erica, it's third person, and.

[Unknown]

Then the sections with Abigail, she's speaking.

[Tina]

To you readers because she's like, I know she's basically. I know you're gonna think this is dumb, but here's why I did it. And I just thought that was so funny.

[Unknown]

She is a snarky character and I.

[Tina]

Usually don't like snarky, but it works.

[Unknown]

With Abigail for sure.

[Tina]

Even though sometimes I was like, gosh, you're being a pill about this. But then I was like, you're a teenage girl. Like, yes, that makes sense. I had a such a surprising.

[Unknown]

There's such a surprising section in here with a third character.

[Tina]

I won't say who or what, but.

[Unknown]

My God, did it really illustrate the idea of woodworking and what it could.

[Tina]

Be if a person decides to completely leave their life and start anew? That section was incredible. I was fully SAT when I read that. Both characters are great.

[Unknown]

It's not just a coming out story. It's not just about queerness.

[Tina]

Although of course that's front and center. It's. They're putting on a play, they're talking about relationships, you know, they're talking about college.

[Unknown]

Should she go to college? Should she not? Should she go far away? Should she stay home?

[Tina]

It's a small town, they talk about.

[Unknown]

The election, there's politics, there's some politicians that are characters in this.

[Tina]

And gosh, I just, I loved it.

[Unknown]

This Book is really smart.

[Tina]

I think this book should have so many more eyes on it. I hope it gets buzzy because I.

[Unknown]

Think it's doing something really, really special.

[Tina]

And I would love more people to read it again.

[Unknown]

I did the audio. I love that there were trans readers.

[Tina]

For the the audiobook and you just really get this fully formed story. It's a type of story that I.

[Unknown]

Miss when I'm finished.

[Tina]

And the one of the authors on.

[Unknown]

The back is Shelby Van Pelt of Remarkably Bright Creatures.

[Tina]

And I totally get that. I think that is a really, really good comp.

[Hannah]

Overall.

[Unknown]

Highly recommend this one.

[Tina]

I definitely think you should get it on your list.

[Unknown]

That is woodworking by Emily St. James.

[Hannah]

Oh, you sold the heck out of that. And it has a gorgeous cover and apparently it's fantastic on audio. Like you would recommend the audio even over the print.

[Tina]

Yeah, I think so. I don't think. I did like a couple pages in print also too. It's like leading up to it sort of follows the narrative of a school year. So it starts I think in September, of course, because it's a teacher. Right.

[Unknown]

It starts in September when the school year starts.

[Tina]

And then it basically leads up, I think through the holiday season.

[Unknown]

And you sort of come to see.

[Tina]

What happened to the character years. Yep, mid December. This book is really good.

[Hannah]

Oh, I love that.

[Unknown]

It's excellent.

[Hannah]

What a special book. It sounds like very special. Okay, so my next read definitely doesn't have a super lovable mother, but it's definitely a motherhood book and that's why I wanted to bring it. It is Crossroads by Laurel Hightower. This is a very popular, dare I say, like buzzy, even though it's backlist horror novella in the horror space. I've seen it a lot on BookTube specifically and Book Talk specifically. This book really explores how far you would go to bring back someone that you love. We are following Chris, who is a mom. Her son dies in a tragic car crash and she is is devastated. And she is visiting her son's grave site leading up to the anniversary of his death. And one of these times she's visiting his gravesite and a drop of her blood falls from her hand onto her son's roadside memorial. And later that evening, Chris thinks that she has seen his ghost outside of her window. But really we think that it's not her son's ghost. It seems like it's something more sinister. And throughout a lot of the book you're trying to figure out what is going on. We're following Chris through This very dangerous game that she is playing, trying to get her son back and navigating her grief. That is all I'm going to say about it. Again, it's a short book, so you can't say a whole lot without giving a lot away. I will say this is very dark. This is one of the darker horror books I have read in a while. There is a lot of graphic violence and self harm in this one that was hard to read at times. And it's also really sad. So it's not just these horrific things that are happening, it's not just the body horror and it's also paired with this really intense grief that this mother is experiencing after dealing with the tragic loss of her son. So it was really challenging to read at times, but not in a bad way. It's just very gripping and I think the author did a really good job portraying that in the character and in the plot. I think that one thing that this book explored really well is just how much women will give to their relationships, how much mothers will give to their children. But I think that that extends to womanhood in general, how much we'll give to our relationships when we're not not saving a lot of energy or saving a lot of ourselves for. For us and for our own healing or recovery or just we're constantly being sacrificial instead of also taking the time to think about ourselves. And that is something that I think that this book explored in a really devastating way. But I thought that it was really well done. One of the blurbs on the back says that it is a gripping and deeply emotional ride from its first sentence to its shattering finale. And I co sign that this is definitely one of those books where you get to the end of it and you're like, okay, I am going to need a minute or a million to process that. And so it's one of those ones where I don't know if I would recommend it per se because it is heavy, it is a lot. And I would say to the right reader, I would highly recommend it just for the reflection that it will leave you with after. If you read horror, if you're okay with intense grief and definitely some graphic content, definitely try this one. It was Crossroads by Laurel Hightower.

[Unknown]

Wow.

[Tina]

Really well done. And I am not touching that book with a 10 foot pole. It's so great because on Sundays, every Sunday we put out a newsletter and I'm always like, good morning Hannah, what are you reading?

[Unknown]

And she sends over the most vile.

[Tina]

Like what are you reading? Oh, this one's about a camp where all the kids die. Oh, this one's about a mom who's, like, going through the grief of losing her child. And I'm like, good morning to you, too. Like, you know what I mean?

[Hannah]

But sometimes I'm reading really saccharine books like this one. It just always paired with something quite sinister.

[Tina]

You are a sour Patch kid.

[Unknown]

You know, most of the time you're.

[Tina]

Sweet in the center, but, like, some of it is very intense. Anyway, that was that you. You made it sound really good. But you did a good job, I think, selling that to the right readers, to the people that are for sure. Heck, yeah.

[Hannah]

Just with care. Handle with care.

[Unknown]

Handle with care.

[Tina]

Nothing wrong with that. All right, I will wrap it up now.

[Unknown]

Listen to me. I'm like, oh, you bring the most intense stuff.

[Tina]

Meanwhile, my book is Grotesque by Not. Not SUO Carino. And I thought Backlist. It is Backlist. Yes. That's a lot.

[Hannah]

Yeah. No, I know. I didn't know. Yeah, well, because this author has the same. Has a book coming up, but I didn't think that that was the title.

[Tina]

Yes, exactly.

[Unknown]

So this is Backlist.

[Tina]

I picked this up on our epic independent bookstore day.

[Unknown]

I grabbed it from Powell's in Chicago, and I will plug myself if you've not watched our vlog from our independent bookstore day on YouTube.

[Tina]

It was so fun. Jonathan and I and The Girls hit 10 bookstores in six hours, and it was in insane, but also the best time.

[Unknown]

However, this was one of the purchases that I made.

[Tina]

It's called Grotesque and again, Grotesque.

[Unknown]

And again, it's Natsuo Carino, and she.

[Tina]

Is the author of out, which is a book that I absolutely loved. And it's. That one is really jacked up. Now, this one takes place at the.

[Unknown]

Prestigious Q High School for young women in Tokyo. And it exists on a precise social access, a world of insiders and outsiders.

[Tina]

Of haves and haves not knots.

[Unknown]

Beautiful Yuriko and her unpopular unnamed sister exist in different spheres. The hopelessly awkward Kazue floats around them, trying to fit in.

[Tina]

And years later, Yukiro and Kazue are dead.

[Unknown]

Both have become sex workers and have been brutally murdered. She essentially, seamlessly weaves together the stories of these women's struggles within the conventions and restrictions of Japanese society. This is a psychological investigation of the pressures facing Japanese women in a classic work of noir fiction. It is a twisted novel of ambition.

[Tina]

Desire, beauty, cruelty, and identity.

[Unknown]

This is Grotesque by Natsuo Carino. I grabbed this one. They had two of her books. I wish I would have grabbed both.

[Tina]

Actually, but I wanted to read more by this author.

[Unknown]

And as Hannah said earlier, she does have a book coming out this fall.

[Tina]

And I will link it in the notes. I can't remember what it's called, but I'm excited.

[Hannah]

I can't remember either.

[Tina]

Yay.

[Hannah]

I'm glad that you brought that. When you were sharing your indie bookstore day, the level of committed I was to, like watching you make that happen. It got to be like 7:00, and you were only at 8. I know, which is impressive. But it was like. I know.

[Tina]

I'm like, 7:00.

[Hannah]

And I was like, oh, my gosh. Like, is she gonna make it? And she's gonna be so disappointed if she doesn't do it. Thank you. And. And. But you did. You made it. And then when I saw the you had put in your stories that you were at, like, the pub, eating dinner.

[Tina]

Literally at the pub.

[Hannah]

I was like, thank God that worked out. I was very invested. That's my version of watching sports.

[Tina]

It was so fun. It was so fun. And Jonathan is an angel for taking us. All.

[Unknown]

The girls had the best time and.

[Tina]

We had such a good day. We'll link to that video because it was really, really fun.

[Hannah]

Okay. My shelf edition is one that I think is probably on a lot of people lists as well, but I just got it in the mail from the publisher. Del Rey sent me a copy, and I was pretty excited. It is Silver Elite by Danny Francis. This is one that I think is going to end up being a really buzzy title this year. A couple of the early reviews that I saw on Goodreads were very much like, oh, yeah, y'all are gonna eat this one up. It is the first book of a new dystopian trilogy. We are following Wren Darlington as she hides her powerful psychic abilities while secretly working for a rebel group fighting against a cruel government. A mistake forces her into the ranks of the enemy's elite military unit, and she finds herself under the watch of Cross Redden, a frustratingly charming officer who doesn't trust her. A tension between them grows, the war intensifies, and Ren must keep her powers hidden and decide how far she is willing and to go to take the system down from within. Sounds very classic dystopian romance. Enemies to Lovers. And I am excited to see if I end up enjoying this one or not. I tend to be hit or miss on these, you know, popular romantasy slash dystopian books, but this one has promise I think. And that is Silver Elite by Danny Francis.

[Tina]

Yes, I saw that was a book of the month.

[Unknown]

I was gonna say a book talk.

[Tina]

Et cetera book, but it was a book of the month pick. And they had a really gorgeous, like, limited edition. And they also said it's Hunger Games for adults, which I don't know that that's. I didn't think the synopsis lined up with that.

[Hannah]

Almost sounded to me more like an ember in the ashes where you've got this military group and there are people within the enemy military group that actually are against the military group. And so again, they're trying to take down the system from within. Not exactly like that series based on people within this military group that are kind of trying to take it down also. That's what it sounded more like to me. But I've never read it. I haven't read it yet, so.

[Tina]

Okay.

[Hannah]

I don't know.

[Tina]

Right. Okay. Hey, that's it for today, right?

[Hannah]

All right, that's it for today. Okay.

[Tina]

Well, that's it for today. We thank you for spending a part of your day with us. Links to all the books mentioned can be found in the show notes. And if you enjoyed your today's episode, you can help us by following wherever you listen and by leaving a review on Apple Podcasts. It helps us get our show out.

[Unknown]

To new listeners and grows our audience.

[Tina]

And again, don't forget, if you'd like access to exclusive bonus content and community, you can join us for $5 a month on patreon.com booktalk Etc.

[Hannah]

If you'd like to connect with us, you can email us@booktalk etcmail.com you can also connect with us both at booktalk. Etc. On Instagram and YouTube. You can also connect with Tina at TBR Etc. And Hannah at HandpickedBooks. Talk to you next week. In the meantime, remember, everything's better with books.

[Tina]

Please and thank you. Gotta get the chickens.

[Hannah]

Gotta get the. Wait, you have chickens?

[Tina]

Oh, that's what I call the girls, the chickens.

[Hannah]

Oh, okay, good. Well, I knew I knew birds. Bird. But I didn't know. Yeah, I was like, you have chickens? Or is this another phrase that I don't know?

[Tina]

It's another phrase. Because of course, why wouldn't I have? Just thanks for putting up with my mania.