B (3:25)

It's called the Fine Art of Lying by Alexander Andrews. From the very first page, this book just is a crazy train between the

A (3:35)

Upper east side drama, the behind the scenes look at the art world, and

B (3:39)

a murder mystery that only the main character, Claire, can uncover. It's impossible to not keep turning these pages. I hope you guys love this thriller

A (3:48)

as much as I did. I cannot wait to hear your thoughts. So pick up a copy.

B (3:52)

It's the Mae Reese's Book Club pick. It's called the Fine Art of Lying. You're gonna really like this one. Wait, will you? I mean, only if you like, like murder and lying and fancy people all getting in a lot of trouble, then you're gonna like it a lot.

A (4:08)

And don't forget to come back at the end of the month for a whole episode about her book. Today, Cindy and I are talking about it all. Her evolution from reader to reviewer to writer, how years of critiquing books has shaped her own storytelling, and her unapologetic love of flowery prose. So if you've ever wanted to read and roast with Cindy, you're in the right place. Let's turn the page with Cindy Pham. Cindy, welcome to the club. Hi.

B (4:41)

Thanks for having me.

A (4:42)

Oh, man, I'm so happy to have you here. I feel like you are book club and booktube royalty.

B (4:49)

Oh, my gosh. I don't know if I would go that far.

A (4:52)

No, it's true. I want to talk about you because there's so much to debrief on and also celebrate. I think you're known to a lot of our listeners as one of the more popular BookTube girlies. And I think it only seems right to start the interview off with what's in your TBR pile right now. What are you loving?

B (5:10)

I happen to be halfway through let's see, Lady Tremaine, which is one of Reese's Book Club picks.

A (5:17)

Yes, Rachel Hochauser.

B (5:19)

And I am just really loving this character exploration of this person and the emphasis on motherhood and everything that she was going through. And now that I'm seeing her perspective, I'm like, yeah, Cinderella is being annoying. Like, do your chores already. So I'm really loving this book so far.

A (5:37)

I think it's so cool that you mentioned that because you have been doing reviews on BookTube for so long. And I also think so emphatically like people really follow you partly for your reviews. Were you always like that as a kid? Is that how you viewed the world?

B (5:54)

When I was casually reading before I started a BookTube channel, I would say that my impressions of books were much more surface level. It was either I liked it, I didn't care for it, but I think the nice thing about starting my BookTube channel and becoming a more prominent figure in the online space is that it really does force you to articulate why you liked or didn't like a book just for the sake of actually having something to say. And so I think that actually fed into a lot of the writing decisions I made as an author. I don't think that being an avid reader or reviewer makes you necessarily a better writer, but I think it makes you a more purposeful writer because you get a sense of what you do like in a story. And I realized just for my reading taste and all the years of my self giving opinions very candidly, that I really love stories that have very flawed characters. I love concepts that play around with time. And I really like writing that is flowery prose. I love indulging in that. It's not everyone's taste, but I love it. And I love writing that is ruminating and reflective, even at the expense of being slow paced and depressing. And so I feel like I have incorporated a lot of that into my book and and it's something that I know it's not to everyone's taste, but I know that it's to my taste. And being such an avid reader only strengthened me to become the kind of writer that my younger self would have wanted to read.

A (7:35)

I am so interested in the last two things that you just said when you said you like flowery prose and writing that ruminates, because I think people would look at you and say, you know, she's young, she's Gen Z. She probably likes things short and staccato. Why do you think you love this flowery prose? Was there someone you read early on that wrote like that?

B (8:01)

Oh, a book that comes to mind for me is this Is how youw Lose the Time War. It's a novella that is about two time travel agents that write love letters to each other. And the writing is very flowery and detailed and metaphorical. And it was the kind of prose that would make me reread the chapter after I just finished that chapter because I wanted to experience it all over again. And I would never say that my writing is anything like that, but it just made me realize that I love indulging in that kind of thing, you

A (8:37)

know, Cindy, you're sort of giving me an exhale as I'm listening to you because it feels sometimes like there is one way to write. There is one way to. To be elegant, to do the right thing when you're writing a book. And I love that you are debunking that. I think that's wonderful.

B (8:56)

The nice thing about now getting into the author space of things is that I'm both more critical of the books I read because I've been in that editing space, but I'm also more empathetic of authors that have chosen to pursue a type of story that maybe might not be to my liking, but I know that they must resonate with this type of writing or this type of theme in their own way. Because I think when you have the privilege to publish something, you should seize that opportunity to again, fully indulge and experiment and play around with things. And I think that's what makes art a lot of fun.

A (9:39)

Yep. And there's readership for. For every different type of writing. Now I want to go back, actually. I want to kind of start from the beginning because the BookTube lore runs really deep. I think a lot of people are familiar with BookTok, obviously, but book two happened before BookTok, right?

B (9:59)

Mm. Yeah. I think it was the OG in terms of bookish expression on social media. And I'm pretty active on both BookTube and BookTok. But BookTube will always have my heart because the format just gives so much space for long form videos, which is really beneficial to go in depth with discussions and analyses of books. And I think, you know, like, we are kind of gravitating towards more short bite sized content. And sometimes when it comes to literature, I think you do need the time and space to really sit with something. Or in my case, if I read a wacky book and I want to do an hour long rant about it, people watching BookTube will wholeheartedly embrace that and have the attention span for that. And I love that we can discuss things that are both serious and silly at such length.

A (10:50)

I mean and girl you really do it. Sometimes you will do an hour and people will watch from beginning to end. Can you explain to me what BookTube looked like before BookTok existed? Was there a difference? Has it changed?

B (11:04)

There's like some generations of BookTube and I would say the OG generation like before I joined was I think it was very like bright eyed and bushy tailed. It was just joy and fangirlishness over books. Around the time that I joined I wanted to do like rant videos because part of what I like when I consume any media, even if I like the story and the media I'm consuming, I just think it's fun to like poke fun at the characters and some of the story choices. For me that's like another fun way of consuming media. So I enjoyed doing more ranty videos

A (11:43)

and I think is that how you found your niche? Because did you were just creating what you wanted to consume?

B (11:49)

Yes. And I think, I mean that's kind of like how I'm trying to navigate content creation and writing as well. I want to just base it on this is what I'm interested in. So I'm just going to post what I'm thinking about, what I am enjoying so far or what I'm not enjoying and I want to rant about it. And people who want to tune in can tune in if they want to.

A (12:12)

How would you describe a Cindy Pham review video?

B (12:16)

I think it depends. I have like my standard monthly wrap ups. They're not as crude as like my rant videos for example, but naturally people love their rant videos and that will be kind of like the hour long dissection of a book that has a series of events that I think are just so zany and wild and nonsensical that I have to tell people about it so that I can be like are you reading what I'm reading right now? Like this is crazy.

A (12:47)

Yeah.

B (12:48)

And I definitely plan on making my own rant video for my book as well. Just because. No way.

A (12:54)

Yeah.

B (12:55)

I mean I feel like it's only fair, you know, it's hilarious.

A (12:59)

You've hit, like, this nuanced sweet spot in my mind, because you really do give your opinion. Like, you're quite honest. And my next question for you is, honestly, like, have you ever had authors upset with you or message you about your reviews? But by the same token, you're not cruel. You're just really giving your experience with the book. So am I hearing you say that? That's actually the magic is that you're not critiquing the writing. You're just sharing how the book made you feel.

B (13:30)

I have not had, you know, anyone complain to me about me talking about their book that way. Or, you know, like, no one at bookcon shanked me in an alleyway, like, for talking about their book like that. So it's. It's fine. I really think that, you know, authors are more professional than you would expect with these things. I think generally people understand that everyone will have all kinds of opinions about your book, and that's not something that you can control. And also, with these types of reviews or videos, it's not for the author. It's for other readers. Sometimes, like, I'll rant about a book, and people will be like, I want to check this out, because this actually sounds really fun.

A (14:14)

I was just going to say it's sort of a compliment when you review somebody's book. It's definitely dredging up a lot more attention. Now, when I was on Goodreads, I saw a lot of people mention your Acotar Rose series. Uh, I saw the X's and O's video mentioned quite a bit. Are there any videos that you've done that are really close to your heart or that stand out to you?

B (14:36)

Oh, my gosh. I feel like Acotar will always have a place in my heart because I think that's how people found me. And the only reason why I started reading that book series is because one of my subscribers had sent me the box set of the book. So I was like, okay, I'll check it out. And I read it, and I was like, why are these characters being this way? And then I posted, you know, videos about it and kind of spiraled from there. Even the references have been, like, pervasive. Like, sometimes, you know, if I read another book and a character is written in a way that is trying too hard to be feminist, in a way that's kind of like, overcompensating. Like, oh, she made her own choice by doing this, and that. That's what makes her powerful. She wanted the D, and that's what Makes her a feminist. Like, people will be like, oh, yeah, that's because Rhysand invented feminism. So it's nice to kind of like, make references to those jokes from before.

A (15:34)

Yeah, absolutely. Do you find yourself watching certain BookTube creators that don't get seen as much on BookTok? Are there any ones that you think we should look out for?

B (15:44)

If you go on my socials, Basically, on my YouTube channel, in my playlist, there is definitely a playlist for Booktubers, but that will have, like, 1,000 subscribers or less.

A (15:54)

That's so generous, Cindy.

B (15:57)

Yeah, I feel like I want to pay it forward in some aspect. And I think also just to show people that, like, you know, there's more people out there that's not just having the kind of content that I have. So even if you don't like my content or my opinions or my voice, there's so many other great creators out there. And similarly, there's so many great, great authors out there. So, like, on my Instagram and on my videos, I'll also shout out, like, other, for example, debut authors are coming out this year that have not been as lucky to have had the same marketing budget as I have. And I think that's just, like, a nice way to try, like, build community and report. Especially because I think social media tends to force people to feel bad about themselves or compare themselves to each other. And I think that one of the ways that we can combat that is by supporting one another instead of, you know, trying to let insecurities get in the way of that.

A (17:03)

What is your sign, Cindy?

B (17:04)

I'm a Libra. Does that make any sense to you or. I. I don't know anything about astrology.

A (17:09)

You have this, like, very interesting mix of kindness and critique. It's very hard to strike that balance.

B (17:18)

I. I'm glad that you think so. Would like to think that people don't think I'm mean just because I make Rambo. No, Yeah.

A (17:27)

I.

B (17:28)

It's already too difficult to be existing in this world. There's no need to make it, you know, more difficult than it already is.

A (17:35)

I agree. What is something that you are so obsessed with that you could write a book about right now, but you probably won't?

B (17:43)

Oh, okay. I am really into trashy reality dating TV shows.

A (17:48)

Yes, name them all, Cindy.

B (17:51)

Okay, so 90 Day Fiance is the OG. I find that so interesting from a psychological perspective, because I'm like, why would you do all of this for someone that you barely know? Or you don't even speak the same language? And I Also watch Love is Blind Ultimatum but the Queer Season specifically because when you put Sapphic women that's going to be the messiest and it was definitely the most thought provoking.

A (18:20)

Foreign. Excited for my upcoming trip to Atlanta? I'm taking my mom to celebrate her birthday. She's never been and I'm gonna take her to eat all the best food, see the best jazz music and I'm gonna have to sneak in a museum or two. Trips like that are truly unforgettable and what makes it even better is staying at a place on Airbnb. Now if you're planning any upcoming trips, you could be hosting your home on Airbnb. And with Airbnb Co host network you could hire a local co host to handle everything like creating your listing, managing reservations, guest communication on site support, and even styling your space. So while you're making your own memories, your home can be helping another family make theirs and earning you extra cash. Find a co host@airbnb.com host when you're planning a trip, it helps to have a credit card that rewards you no matter where you like to book. That's the Autograph Journey credit card from Wells Fargo. What makes a difference is how flexible it is. You can earn rewards where you like to book travel. If you like going straight to the airline or hunting down a deal on a hotel site, this card is designed to keep rewarding you. Here's how the points stack up. You get five times points with hotels, four times with airlines, three times on restaurants and other travel, and one point on other purchases. So picture booking that hotel in the neighborhood you've always wanted to stay in. That's earning points, grabbing flights for a last minute getaway. That's earning sitting down for that first dinner when you land still earning. Even the everyday stuff between trips can help toward your next journey. The autographed Journey card from Wells Fargo helps turn the way you already travel, eat and explore into rewards. Learn more@wells fargo.com autographjourney terms apply. Apple Books is the best place to read, listen to or discover the books you love without a subscription right on your iPhone. And now there's a very exciting heads up for listeners. Apple Books is the official audiobook and ebook home for Reese's Book Club, so it's easier than ever to explore each monthly book pick, plus author curated collections and more all in one place. Open the Apple Books app to explore a world of books and audiobooks. You can set goals and track your reading progress. Get great recommendations for your next read or listen and enjoy it all on the go, wherever you are. You can even share your books with up to five family members at no cost. Again, no subscription required. Visit Apple Co reeseapplebooks to find out more. That's Apple Co reeseapplebooks and read or listen to Reese's current Pick and browse past selections today on Apple Books. Today's episode is brought to you by Cotton we spend a lot of time with stories, hours curled up with dynamic plots and with characters who feel like friends. What if the story isn't just in your hands but also in the world around you, in the fabric that's holding you close? Cotton is that timeless companion. Soft sheets for lazy weekend mornings with a book. Breezy dresses for afternoons spent reading in the backyard. It's the fabric that can be tossed in the wash without fuss. It's about ease, comfort and caring for yourself and the planet. Just like the books we cherish, cotton weaves meaning into our everyday moments. Moments like following four adult daughters as they navigate love, loss and the legacy in the Most Fun We Ever had by Claire Lombardo, all while curled up in soft cotton joggers or sinking into the island of Missing Trees by Elif Shafak. A story that spans generations. Forbidden love and a fig tree that remembers everything wrapped in a hand stitched quilt, each thread holding its own kind of memory. Next time you settle in for a chapter, slip into something cotton. Not just to read the story, but to feel it. Cotton the fabric of our lives. Learn more@thefabricofourlives.com you know how there's so many book micro trends nowadays? Do you love queer hockey romance? Is that your micro trend?

B (22:28)

Oh okay. So I haven't read queer hockey books. I know that's a big thing right now and my girlfriend loves it. Like she is eating that up so hard. So in a way I'm kind of like getting a secondhand from her. Yeah, I think a lot of times whatever I'm not into she might be eating it up and vice versa. So I feel like we kind of like complete each other in that sense.

A (22:52)

You are true book soulmates. Wait, what is your micro trend? What are you obsessed with right now?

B (22:56)

Oh you know what, I want to start something where instead of romantasy is traumatasy because I think that's my book. It's not a romance focused fantasy at all. There's barely any romance because the characters are too busy being traumatized. But the fantasy elements reflect their interiority because they are in the dream world. But I think in general you know, genres like fantasy provide such an interesting backdrop to exploring, like, real human emotions that can parallel, you know, a lot of the things that we experience or a lot of the systemic issues that we have in the real world. I think it would be a very cathartic way of understanding the world around us and the emotions and feelings that we're processing, but in the space of a fictional fantasy setting. So it's not too depressing one to one, but you have that fictional space to explore it in, like, a safe way.

A (23:55)

I want to run something by you that I learned at bookcon, because you and I just missed each other. You were there Saturday doing signings, and I was there on Sunday. I interviewed Leigh Bardugo. I was so sad to miss you. But I learned about Femgore. Have you heard about this? It's like, weird girl horror.

B (24:11)

Yeah, I. I'm all for it. And I think, like, I think there's something really interesting about that contrast of femininity with kind of like, the rawness and vulgarity of horror.

A (24:26)

Me too. There's another trend that I'm seeing, which is trad wife influencer novels. I just read Carol Clare Burke's Yesteryear. It is so good. I think you will love it, especially with your takes on femininity and culture. I like. I need to debrief with you afterwards.

B (24:43)

Yeah, yeah, that's definitely on my list. I think it is very much reflective of kind of, like, the way that our society is leaning towards now, where there is a lot more of an influx of tradwype content. And what does that say about, you know, our politics and the way that we're viewing women or expecting women to behave? And so I would love to see how the book tackles that. So I'm very, very excited to check it out. And I saw Anne Hathaway is gonna produce it, and I'll watch anything that she's in. So it's a win. Win.

A (25:14)

She bought the rights. Okay, so you said yours falls under tromantacy. Is that. That feels accurate?

B (25:20)

Yes.

A (25:21)

So obviously gonna be really strong opinions online because you've put strong opinions online. And your novel comes out next month, the Secret World of Briar Rose. How is it gonna affect how you review books moving forward?

B (25:36)

I would still love to share my opinions about books, and I think that just because you are an author doesn't mean that you're not allowed to share any opinion ever.

A (25:46)

But did it change how you review? Because I'm putting myself in your head right now. And once you write Your own book like you have, I'm sure, so much understanding for why writers did certain things. Did you find yourself being critical while you were writing? Were you thinking like a reviewer?

B (26:04)

I definitely applied the same kind of critical nitpickiness that I have to books with my own writing as well. And that's why I think it'd be so fun to do a rant video, because I got so many things to say as well. But I think in terms of, like, you know, how differently I approach talking about books now. I'll still share my opinions about books on Goodreads, but I won't rate them anymore. And that's because I've realized how much ratings matter to authors. And for me, I kind of view ratings as, like, an arbitrary thing. So I would rather just write my opinion but keep their ratings out of it. And so my hope is that if I kind of normalize, like, a casual manner of reviewing, that hopefully people will not view what I say as some official endorsement or denouncement of any book.

A (26:59)

Smart.

B (27:00)

And I think another way that I've kind of kept the middle ground is that, you know, I'm still sharing, like, my thoughts in my book wrap up videos. I might be a little bit softer now on certain books because I think I can't help but have more empathy for the authors. But at the same time, I think a lot of people and I have enjoyment in the rant videos, so I'll still do that as well. I would never have any desire to do, like, a rant video about, like, a smaller author or an indie author or, like, a person of color or anything like that. Like, I feel like any kind of rant videos I do make has always been about books that are very. They're doing very well commercially. They're on bestsellers list. They have movie adaptations that I think a random YouTube video from, like, a smaller author would not really impact them in any way.

A (27:59)

Cindy, I'm gonna ask you the hardest question of this entire interview. I'm putting you on the spot, but I'm warning you. Okay. You said that you were gonna do a rant video for your own book.

B (28:10)

Mm.

A (28:11)

Our listeners love a spoiler. Would you indulge us and give us a little preview of the rant video? Even just a few sentences. What are we saying?

B (28:21)

I definitely want to poke fun at the main character, Corrine, because she is such a miserable person that, like, she is so angsty to the next level. And she has, like, absolutely no, like, the nickname that I've called her. Is Crash Out Corinne, because she. She crashes out, like, in every chapter that she's in, and that's hilarious. And she is very much like a punching bag in the book, and she has her own character arc and everything. But again, part of my enjoyment in books is poking fun at the characters. So even though I do have love for these characters, sometimes they're really doing too much and they really need to settle down. So I think Corinne will be the main target for that as well, because she's constantly crashing out.

A (29:12)

You know, I want to actually drill into this a little bit further because I was really interested to learn that you actually wrote this story as a teenager.

B (29:20)

Yes. So I wrote the first draft when I was a senior in high school, and I didn't touch that draft for several years because after that I went to college and I wanted to focus on my design career. And it wasn't until I would say, maybe five or six years later, when I was a proper adult and I developed, like, a frontal lobe, I decided to revisit that first draft again and consider taking writing more seriously and making this a novel that would hopefully be worthy of getting published. So there was a big stretch of time between that first draft and my adulthood where I grew a lot and I think expanded my mind a lot with just not just like, for my own mental health journey, with all the years of therapy I've had, because that fed into the book as well, due to it being based in my mental health and depression, but also just what I've learned about the world and everything going on around me. I think it made me a more thoughtful reader and writer in a way that I'm glad that I took so long to write the book so that I was able to kind of grow into it and let that book grow alongside me too.

A (30:43)

So I can imagine as your booktube and booktok presence grows, you're probably getting reached out to by agents. Right? Because all those. That community really helps in book sales. And you could have written a lot of different books. Why dive back into this story instead of writing a different one? Like, what was it about this specifically that you had to get out of your body and onto the page?

B (31:11)

This book is pretty much like the most personal story to me just because it is directly inspired by my experience with depression and suicidal ideation. Using the tale of Sleeping Beauty as an allegory for those things that desire to sleep forever and never wake up, and the passivity of that character as well, I think is such a prominent feature or symptom. Of depression, where, you know, it's a lot harder to be brave or have agency when you don't even want to save yourself. And so, I think was definitely the book that I wanted to pursue as my debut because I just couldn't stop thinking about it. Even when I was not writing anymore, I still thought about it. And if I didn't get back into it, it would haunt me forever in my mind, like, I needed to get it out of my system. But I think another thing is that I am aware that with my platform, it pretty much guarantees a publishing deal, or at least it gives me, like, very strong advantages for that. And I want to view this opportunity and privilege as a way to really focus on writing something that I want to write, rather than something that the market wants or what is expected from, like, publishing trends or anything like that. Yeah, I think that's kind of like my motto for being, like, an author, too. I don't want to publish a book for the sake of publishing it. I want to publish because I feel like I have a story to tell or a story that I'm interested in. And so I'm comfortable, you know, taking my time with doing that, even if it's several years, like it was with this one.

A (33:00)

And how old were you when you wrote the first draft?

B (33:02)

I think I was 18 when I. Yeah, yeah. And so by the time I revisited it, I believe I was in my mid-20s at the time. So, yeah, a lot has changed. Again, I developed a frontal lobe. I also became less heteronormative because I was very straight when I wrote that first draft. And now I am very queer. And so the story really transformed a lot compared to that original conception. But I think the heart of it remains the same, with it being about mental health and grief and depression and forgiveness.

A (33:38)

What did it feel like for you to return to that story in your mid-20s? Do you remember reading that first draft for the first time and what you felt?

B (33:47)

I knew I just would have to rewrite it altogether. But I think that's how I approach writing in the first place, where the first draft, you get it over with, and then the second draft, for me, is rewriting from scratch now that I have some sense of cohesion with how I want the story to go, Whereas the previous part, I think that was me letting my juvenile imaginative brain just throw stuff at the wall and see what sticks. And I kind of kept the pieces of it that I wanted to remain as in, like, the core themes of it and figured out how to dress it up. In a better way.

A (34:24)

I recently started looking back at some of my old writing from college, from my early 20s. And similar to what you said, the writing is not great, but I still see seeds of myself in there.

B (34:39)

Yes. And I think that's what's important, right? Like, if it comes from a true place of yourself, that's something that you can still carry over. Except now that you're older and hopefully wiser, you can take the tools that you've learned from, like reading or writing or just observing the world and making it a more well rounded piece of art that hopefully reflects the idea that you're trying to convey.

A (35:04)

I had this very funny experience. I was reading writing from my sophomore year of college, okay. And I was dealing with heartbreak for the first time in a major way. And this guy that I liked so much in college was, like, not so great to me. And I'm rereading all this writing and I'm thinking to myself, danielle, he sucks. Like, what are you. Why are you so upset? And what are you toiling over? And how did he cut you that deeply? Like, how did you not see it? Because in hindsight, I see it all right? Like, zoomed out it. Your life feels like a play and you're yelling at the main character, turn left, don't turn right. Like, you know, same. The topics that you were covering were heart wrenching. I mean, they're guttural. They're so. They're fundamental to your soul. What was it like for you to read that and think, like, oh, little Cindy.

B (36:07)

I think the feelings that were there in the original remained in the final work, but it was just hopefully written in a better way to convey that. And I also think that because I was focused on improving my mental health by, you know, seeking therapy, seeking medication, doing the work of identifying, like, cognitive dissonance, all of that kind of stuff, I think it helped make me understand sort of the psyche of the characters more because they represent different facets of the depression that I have experienced. And so a lot of times, like, throughout the book, they're running away from something, and I think uncovering what it is they're running away from and how they have coped with that was very much something that I have taken from my own mental health journey and my own, like, therapy sessions and what I've learned from there.

A (37:18)

Right now I'm super excited for my upcoming trip to Atlanta. I'm taking my mom to celebrate her birthday. She's never been. And I'm going to take her to eat. All the best food, see the best jazz music, and I'm going to have to sneak in a museum or two. Trips like that are truly unforgettable, and what makes it even better is staying at a place on Airbnb. Now if you're planning any upcoming trips, you could be hosting your home on Airbnb. And with Airbnb co host network, you could hire a local co host to handle everything like creating your listing, managing reservations, guest communication on site support, and even styling your space. So while you're making your own memories, your home can be helping another family make theirs and earning you extra cash. Find a co host@airbnb.com host when you're planning a trip, it helps to have a credit card that rewards you no matter where you like to book. That's the Autograph Journey credit card from Wells Fargo. What makes a difference is how flexible it is. You can earn rewards where you like to book travel. If you like going straight to the airline or hunting down a deal on a hotel site, this card is designed to keep rewarding you. Here's how the points stack up. You get five times points with hotels, four times with airlines, three times on restaurants and other travel, and one point on other purchases. So picture booking that hotel in the neighborhood you've always wanted to stay in, that's earning points. Grabbing flights for a last minute getaway, that's earning sitting down for that first dinner when you land. Still earning. Even the everyday stuff between trips can help toward your next journey. The autographed Journey card from Wells Fargo helps turn the way you already travel, eat and explore into rewards. Learn more@wells fargo.com autographjourney terms apply. Apple Books is the best place to read, listen to or discover the books you love without a subscription right on your iPhone. And now there's a very exciting heads up for listeners. Apple Books is the official audiobook and ebook home for Reese's Book Club, so it's easier than ever to explore each monthly book pick, plus author curated collections and more all in one place. Open the Apple Books app to explore a world of books and audiobooks. You can set goals and track your reading progress. Book get great recommendations for your next read or listen and enjoy it all on the go wherever you are. You can even share your books with up to five family members at no cost. Again, no subscription required. Visit Apple Co reeseapplebooks to find out more. That's Apple Co reeseapplebooks and read or listen to Reese's current Pick and browse past selections and today on Apple Books. Today's episode is brought to you by Cotton we spend a lot of time with stories, hours curled up with dynamic plots and with characters who feel like friends. What if the story isn't just in your hands but also in the world around you, in the fabric that's holding you close? Cotton is that timeless companion. Soft sheets for lazy weekend mornings with a book. Breezy dresses for afternoons spent reading in the backyard. It's the fabric that can be tossed in the wash without fuss. It's about ease, comfort, and caring for yourself and the planet. Just like the books we cherish, cotton weaves meaning into our everyday moments. Moments like following four adult daughters as they navigate love, loss, and the legacy in the Most Fun We Ever had by Claire Lombardo, all while curled up in soft cotton. Joggers or Sinking into the island of Missing Trees by Elif Shafak. A story that spans generations, Forbidden love and a fig tree that remembers everything, wrapped in a hand stitched quilt, each thread holding its own kind of memory. Next time you settle in for a chapter, slip into something cotton. Not just to read the story, but to feel it. Cotton the fabric of our lives. Learn more@thefabricofourlives.com so you rewrote both main characters as queer to represent your evolution. Obviously. I thought it was cool that you brought readers along with you every step of the way. You've been very transparent. You read your query letter in one video, you showed the form that your publisher had you fill out during the development of the COVID art in another video. And you've also made it clear that your experience as an influencer affected your ability to get to get an agent in this conversation. Why make all these sort of how to videos?

B (41:44)

I try to disclaim that this is not like a guide to getting published because my situation is so specific and different. But I think my channel is very much a place for me to share videos of what I'm experiencing and what I'm interested in. And so I'm happy to share the publishing process because it was something that I was deeply entrenched in. I think it's interesting to share and read query letters and even rejections and share the COVID art process because it's so much fun. Like I really enjoyed getting involved in the COVID art and I like that was something I was proud to share. I also enjoyed reading out loud my rejections because I think that it sheds light to what the process was like for me. It also sheds light of what I'm learning about publishing too. It was super interesting to see different reasons for why a book might not be working. Whether that's because the young adult market is weak right now or the book was considered too depressing for this kind of genre. It was everything that I was learning, experiencing, and I'm more than happy to share that with an audience because I've. I'm so used to sharing already what I'm interested in on my channel. That's been like the basis of all

A (43:06)

the content you mentioned. Your cover art, your cover artist, your editor, your agent, your book designers. They're all women and they are all women from the Asian diaspora. Why was that so important to you?

B (43:19)

You know, that was actually a very cool coincidence. I'm so fortunate that that has been the case because I think it is quite rare to have a team of exclusively south or Southeast Asian women or non binary people. Like, not just in publishing, but any industry. I've never experienced something like that. Like I work in tech and advertising, never experienced anything like that. But I feel like that has helped inform all the love and passion that gets put into this book. And I think it makes me want to be more of an advocate for my book because it is not just a reflection of. It's not just my quote unquote product. It is something that other people have worked hard on. My hope is that it could open the door just a little bit wider for, you know, other women of color, other Asian women to have more of a role in the publishing industry.

A (44:20)

This is obviously an important question year round, but we're currently in the middle of AAPI Month. Are there any titles or authors that you want to give a shout out to?

B (44:28)

I am so lucky to have become friends with this one author, Rachel Fan. She is publishing later this year a series of essays about being an Asian woman in a very whitewashed town where she's from and like her experiences being an Asian woman in publishing and navigating the world and also being someone who is not like a very well behaved Asian woman. And like, how does that, you know, affect her and how people view her? You know, speaking of queer sports, it's called Just Between Us and it's a graphic novel between two rival ice skating players and they're both women. And I am so into like the art style and the storytelling and how much yearning there is. And then another book that is coming up that I haven't read yet, but it's on my list. It's called Strange Familiars and it's about two rival magical veterinary students and they have to like team up to investigate these magical surges going on. It's a Romantasy in a dark academia setting. Those are, like, the three off the top of my head. I could go on and on, but I definitely, at some point, like, I want to post a video that shouts out more Asian authors, and so I need to, like, consolidate my notes for that.

A (45:49)

Well, as someone who's so tapped into the reading community, do you see any trends popping up? Is there anything that readers are really craving right now that you see?

B (45:59)

Mm, I think people are craving a lot of romantasy and cozy fantasy. I think people are more into the escapism aspect of that, maybe because the world is already so depressing as it is, But I think from a broader level, some part of me wonders if there are also people who are craving for things that are beyond what publishing is pushing, because I think Romantasy is having, like, a very hot moment right now where that's been, like, the majority of the books that you see on the bookshelves. And even at bookcon, I had seen people say that it was mostly romantic leading, and they wish that there were other genres out there, like horror, sci fi, non fic. And so I think people are wanting diversity, not just in race or sexual orientation, but just, like, genre diversity. We want a variety of art to be out there, and we want the choice to be able to have that variety of art. I remember I was warning someone at bookcon that my book is a fantasy, but it's not romance focused, even though the characters are queer. And she said that that actually made her want to pick it up even more.

A (47:17)

I love hearing that. I actually felt the same way at bookcon. I was wanting more diverse genres, but I think it was back for the first time, you know, in years. And so hopefully in the coming years, it. It'll be like that a little bit more.

B (47:31)

So, yeah, I definitely think so too.

A (47:33)

I also think you're a total Libra because you are very deep and very analytical. So I do think it matches up. Cindy.

B (47:40)

Okay. I. I'm also very indecisive, which I heard is a Libra quality.

A (47:45)

Okay, I want to play a little game with you. We're gonna do something called March Madness, but it's the battle of the book style. So I'm gonna give you two titles. They're all books that I know that you've loved, and I want you to pick one. Okay. And then only one title is going to come out on top.

B (48:01)

Okay.

A (48:02)

So I guess this is not good for your indecisive Libra Trait. But we're going to try.

B (48:06)

We'll see. I feel like I might end up picking the same book over and over because there are just some books that are like anotherly. But we'll see. We'll see how it goes.

A (48:12)

Okay, perfect. What My Bones Know by Stephanie Fu or Keeping House While Drowning by Casey Davis.

B (48:19)

What My Bones Now.

A (48:20)

What My Bones Know or I'm Glad My mom died by Jeanette McCurdy.

B (48:25)

What my bones Know.

A (48:26)

What My Bones Know or the Dream Hotel by Laila Lalami.

B (48:30)

What My Bones Now. I feel like I'm gonna say that, like, constantly, but there might be a book that beats it. We'll see if you bring that up.

A (48:37)

Okay. What My Bones Know or Book Lovers by Emily Henry.

B (48:41)

What My Bones Know.

A (48:43)

What My Bones Know are the Invocations by Kristen Sutherland.

B (48:47)

What My Bones Know.

A (48:49)

Okay, final matchup. No, this is good. What My Bones Know or the River Drags her down by Jiyoun Yoon.

B (48:56)

What My Bones.

A (48:58)

What My Bones Now. Okay, we have a winner. Ding, ding, ding.

B (49:01)

But I feel like the book that would have been in it is Know My Name by Chanel Miller. Yeah, but they're both so good. And all the books that you listed are so good.

A (49:12)

She's a wonderful aap.

B (49:14)

Yeah. And I think I keep on picking what My Bones Know just because it's such like a raw, visceral depiction of cptsd and it's just done so well.

A (49:26)

Cindy, I'm so excited for your new transition and this new era for you as an author. I'm wishing you the best of luck.

B (49:33)

Yeah, thank you so much. This was such a great conversation.

A (49:37)

That's it for this episode of bookmarked by Reese's Book Club. Our phone line is now open, so if you want to go 90s on us, give us a call at 1501-291-3379. That's 1-501-291-3379. Share your literary hot takes, your book recommendations, questions about the monthly pick or let us know what you think about the episode you just heard. And who knows, you might just hear yourself in our next episode. So don't overthink it. Give us a ring and if you want more, come hang with us. Reese's book club is on Instagram serving up books. Can you good vibes and all the behind the scenes stuff you love. And I'm R O B A Y so come say hi and please seriously DM me because I actually read them and I love hearing what you think about the episodes and don't forget to follow Bookmarked by Reese's Book club on the iHeartRadio app. Apple Podcasts are wherever you listen. We'll see you in the next chapter. Bookmarked as a production of Hello Sunshine and iHeart podcasts. Executive produced by Reese Witherspoon and me, Danielle Robay production by Acast Creative Studios. Our producers are Maddie Foley, Brittany Martinez and Sarah Schlied. Our editor is Carmen Borca Carrillo. Our production assistant is Avery Loftus. Jenny Kaplan and Emily Rutter are executive producers for Acast Creative Studios. Maureen Polo and Reese Witherspoon are executive producers for hello Sunshine. Olga Kaminwa, Kristin Perla, Ashley Rapaport and Sarah Kernerman are associate producers for Reese's Book Club and Ali Perry is executive producer for iHeart Podcasts. Today's episode is brought to you by Cotton we spend a lot of time with stories, hours curled up with dynamic plots and characters who feel like friends. What if the story isn't just in your hands but also in the world around you? In the fabric that's holding you close? Cotton is that timeless companion. Soft sheets for a lazy weekend morning with a book. Breezy dresses for afternoons spent reading in the backyard. It's the fabric that can be tossed in the wash without fuss. It's about ease, comfort and caring for yourself and the planet. Just like books we cherish, cotton leaves meaning into everyday moments. Next time you settle in for a chapter, slip into something cotton not just to read the story, but to feel it. Cotton the fabric of our lives. Learn more at thefabricofourlives.com the autograph journey credit card from Wells Fargo is built for travel. You can earn rewards wherever you book your favorite hotel site your go to airline and more. You get five times points with hotels, four times with airlines, three times on restaurants and other travel, and one point on other purchases. Whether it's a big vacation or a quick getaway from booking your stay to that first meal when you arrive, you're turning your trips into rewards with the Autograph Journey Card from Wells Fargo. Learn more at Wells Fargo.com autographjourney Terms apply. Apple Books is the best way to read or listen to the books you love without a subscription right on your iPhone and a heads up for listeners. Apple Books is the official audiobook and ebook home for Reese's Book Club so you can discover every exciting pick plus author curated collections and more all in one place. Open the Apple Books app to explore a world of books and audiobooks. You can Set and track your reading goals and get great recommendations for your next read or listen again. No subscription required. Visit Apple Co Reese. That's R E E S e Applebooks to find out more. I'm partnering with Simple Mills and I have now found a new go to reading snack. Simple Mills Almond Flour Crackers Think of this as a quick book style review because these crackers deserve it. A snack that feels light, not heavy. Made with almond flour, sunflower seeds and flaxseeds. Nutrient dense ingredients your body can use. Not empty carbs and the taste crunchy classic flavors that leave you feeling energized. For a good plot twist, try Pop' Ems. Cheesy, airy, poppable crackers packed with veggies. Final Verdict these are a shelf staple. Find Simple Meals at your grocery store. This is an I heart podcast. Guaranteed human.