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- [00:00]
Danielle Robay
This is an iHeart podcast.
- [00:05]
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- [01:35]
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- [02:06]
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- [02:35]
Reese's Book Club Host
Today's episode is brought to you by Cotton. We spend a lot of time with stories, hours curled up with dynamic plots and characters who feel like friends. What if the story isn't just in your hands, but also in the world around you, in the fabric that's holding you close? Cotton is that timeless companion. Soft sheets for a lazy weekend morning with a book. Breezy dresses for afternoons spent reading in the backyard. It's the fabric that can be tossed in the wash without fuss. It's about ease, comfort, and caring for yourself and the planet. Just like books we cherish, cotton weaves meaning into everyday moments. Next time you settle in for a chapter, slip into something cotton. Not just to read the story, but to feel it. Cotton the fabric of our lives. Learn more at the fabric of our lives.com bookmarked by Reese's book Club is presented by Apple Books. Hi, I'm Danielle Robay.
- [03:27]
Danielle Robay
Welcome to Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club. Have you ever wanted something so badly but thought maybe it's too late? Yeah, I definitely have. Like learning Spanish or keeping a plant alive for more than three weeks. Kidding. Sort of. But this week we're talking with one of the most prolific fantasy writers of our time, Leigh Bardugo, the powerhouse behind Shadow and Bone, Six of Crows, and the Alex Stern trilogy. And she reminded me of something I didn't even realize I needed to hear. So I thought you might, too.
- [04:01]
Leigh Bardugo
I'm Elite Bloomer. Right? Published at 37. There are people who don't publish until they're in their 40s, in their 50s. And guess what? That doesn't change the success they have. Now. I know it feels urgent because our culture loves you youth. And it always has. It always has. Like, oh, we love the feeling that we've discovered a wunderkind. Oh, we found a gifted child. How fabulous. But if you have a story to tell, it's a story nobody else can tell. And the idea that that story is somehow less Valuable when you're 48 than when you're 18 is a game that culture plays on you. And we need to not fall for that. That's a con.
- [04:36]
Danielle Robay
Today, Lee pulls back the curtain. How she found her voice in her 30s after years of false starts. How a dark season pushed her toward her first novel. And how she built one of the most beloved fantasy universes by turning discomfort and failure and doubt into fuel. This isn't self help jargon. It's a brutally honest look at the messy process of making art and why the hard part is exactly where the magic lives. So if you've ever worried you're behind or wondered if you've missed your moment, then you're in the Right place. Let's turn the page with Leigh Bardugo.
- [05:18]
Reese's Book Club Host
Leigh Bardugo, welcome to the club.
- [05:21]
Leigh Bardugo
Thank you for having me here.
- [05:22]
Danielle Robay
I've interviewed some really brilliant people over the course of my career, but I'm going to embarrass you for a second. You might have the highest IQ of anybody that I've interviewed.
- [05:33]
Leigh Bardugo
How do you know what my IQ is?
- [05:35]
Danielle Robay
Well, you went to a school for gifted kids, which requires an IQ of over 138. And just for reference, for everyone listening, 130 is considered gifted. So Merman students are absolutely off the charts.
- [05:50]
Leigh Bardugo
I cannot believe you did this. Deep dive. I cannot beware of journalists. That's the message here.
- [05:57]
LG XBoom Advertiser (Alternate)
Wow.
- [05:59]
Leigh Bardugo
Well, okay.
- [06:00]
Danielle Robay
We try to be good at our jobs. I love it genuinely. Without embarrassing you too much. I'm truly curious what it was like to grow up being told that you were gifted. Was it empowering? Was it overwhelming?
- [06:14]
Leigh Bardugo
Oh, this is a good question. In general, I think the problem with praising kids around intellect in that way is that you get an idea in your head that you are special because you're young and smart. As in, you're doing something exceptional for your age. And there will be a point where you stop being the smartest and youngest person in the room. And the question is, how will you handle the world after that? I had very few experiences with failure in the sense that I was a kid who could cram for a test the night before and write a paper or the night before and still do well. Again, not in math and science, let's not talk about that. But that was what got me through even through college. Then you enter the real world, and the reality is that most things worth doing actually take small steps, small progress, and the willingness to fail regularly. I had no chops in that, and it took me a long time to develop them.
- [07:11]
Danielle Robay
Well, it's no surprise to me that you're one of the most prolific fantasy writers publishing right now. What was a little bit of a surprise to me is that I learned that before you were a writer, you were a makeup artist.
- [07:24]
Leigh Bardugo
I was. I was a makeup and effects artist. Yep. Not a very good one, but I did my best.
- [07:30]
Danielle Robay
Well, you spent 15 years sort of doing these different jobs that they were still sort of creative pursuits, but deep down you had always wanted to write. And I read that while you were doing makeup, you were sort of dreaming up this story in your head. What was it about the makeup process that allowed you to imagine these fantastic worlds in your books?
- [07:54]
Leigh Bardugo
Well, I think the truth of it is that when I was writing copy for a living, I found that I was sort of burned out. It was like you're using the same muscle that you're using to write a novel, or at least an adjacent muscle. I felt very burnt out by that in terms of creative impulse. And I didn't really even realize that until I was doing these makeup jobs where, you know, I would be on my feet for 10, 12 hours and sort of constantly moving, constantly working. But then I would come home from that, and I would still feel energized to begin this creative work. And I think it was just a question of letting that muscle rest. And also, I am a big believer in the subconscious doing work for you. So what I always tell people is, if you're a mom, if. If you're working full time, if you are caring for anyone and you have limited time to write, use your 15 minutes, use your 30 minutes. But end that with a question in mind for what you're going to do next, or an idea of what you're going to do next, because your subconscious will be working on it even if you're not consciously working on it. And that means you're not starting from zero when you sit down again. And I think I was embracing that practice without even realizing it when I was working in makeup. And I think there's also certain things with makeup and effects that hold true for fiction. You know, you are trying to create a seamless illusion. You're. You're. If. If somebody knows, if somebody can see the hand behind the art, then something has gone wrong.
- [09:16]
Danielle Robay
What's interesting to me is that there's so much lore around how you became an author. Like, there's not just lore about these worlds that you've created, but there's lore about you. And you set a deadline for your 35th birthday. What was it, what was going on in your life that made you want to finally start writing these adult fantasy novels that had been in your mind for so long?
- [09:42]
Leigh Bardugo
I mean, I had been trying to write a book since I was a teenager, really. I mean, if you really want to go back. I wanted to be a novelist from the time I was a kid and I would start. I was great at starting. I was great at first chapters, great at first acts, but I didn't know how to outline, and I didn't know what my process was. And so I would just hit a wal. Had kind of grown up on these visions of writing that we see in culture that are very much like, you get the idea. And then you just Roll right. The inspiration is with you, and that will drive you through to the end. I'm not that kind of writer. I need structure. I need it badly. That's my security blanket. So when I would start and lose momentum every time that happened, I would lose a little more faith in myself. And by the time I was in my 30s, I thought, well, this is it. The tombstones are going to read, had potential. This is like, oh, look, she went to a gifted school when she was a kid, and she went to a fancy colle. Good for me. What does that actually add up to in the end? Not a whole lot. And I felt very lost. I was in a very bad relationship. I had switched careers, and I wasn't really thriving as a makeup artist. And when I got the idea for Shadow and Bone, which was my first novel, I did not get up and think, okay, this is the one. I'm gonna write this. It's gonna be amazing. I actually put it aside because I thought, this is gonna be one more thing you try and fail at. And then I got on the phone with my friend Michelle, and she was saying, you need to apply to the mfa. You're supposed to be writing. Like, this is what you want. You should be pursuing that. And I remember standing in my closet, I was sort of organizing things in my closet and saying, I don't want to go to the mfa, and I can't afford to go to the mfa. But what I do want to do is write a book, and I am going to. To outline this. I don't know why. It had never occurred to me before, right? Like, it had never occurred to me. I had taken a screenwriting class when I was younger. Why did I not use this structure for a book? Right? It's right there in front of you, Lee. Like, if you put this in a movie or a book, people will be like, that lady's just. She's sad. She's a little dumb. So I thought, I'm gonna get off this phone call, and I'm gonna go outline this book, and I am gonna. I'm gonna finish it before I turn 35. And it took me a few months after that to actually get it into shape where I wanted to agents. But I just pushed myself through that first draft, or what I call the zero draft, the draft no one's gonna see. And I played a little game with myself because I used to when I. You know, when you work in the arts, you know, the first draft is usually garbage. But in my brain, I didn't really understand That I didn't understand how iterative art was. And so I would just think, this is terrible. This is bad. Why are you even trying? And I used to respond to that by being like, oh, well, it's not bad. It's great. Well, it wasn't great. It was bad. It's a first draft. And so instead I would say, you're so right, voice in my. But no one's ever gonna see this. This is just for me. I'm gonna learn how to write a book, and then the next one will be better. And that's what drove me through that first draft.
- [12:39]
Danielle Robay
Hearing you say that you almost put Shadow and Bone aside is so wild because the public numbers. And correct me if these numbers are off, but the public numbers are that this book alone has sold two and a half million copies in the English language editions, and the Grishaverse books have sold 20 million copies worldwide.
- [13:02]
Leigh Bardugo
Yeah, we're now up to 25, which is nice, but, yeah, that's actually for all my novels across the board, I believe. But I don't actually know what my English language sales are by book or anything like that, so.
- [13:15]
Danielle Robay
And you almost didn't do this. And thank God to that girlfriend of yours.
- [13:20]
Leigh Bardugo
I mean, that's my girl Mishi. We've been supporting each other since we were in college, and she was one of my first readers for Shadow and Bone. Her and my friend Josh, neither of them were novelists, but they were both writers and Are both writers. And I brought them this book and put it in their hands with a lot of vulnerability, and they gave me great notes. But none of us knew. We didn't know where this was going. I didn't know where the publishing market was. I had no idea. I was just desperate to do this thing I had wanted to do my whole life. I just wanted to finish a book. And then you finish and you're like, well, now I just want to get an agent, and then I just want to sell a book, and then I just want to sell the trilogy. So that goalpost moves and moves and moves.
- [14:01]
Danielle Robay
Now that the goalpost is so far on the other side of things, would you go back and do anything differently in your writing career?
- [14:10]
Leigh Bardugo
I mean, I would love to say I would start it earlier. You know, I think if I had known what the process was, understood how much I need an outline, how much I need structure, and if I had learned, you know, I've talked about this a lot recently, how important discomfort is to the process of art, I think I would have been in A different position. That said, I think that the jobs I worked, the experiences I had. This is easy to say, right? It's easy to say when you've arrived, it was all worth it. But I can't say anything else because those jobs, that scarcity, the fear that went along with all of those things of paying the rent and paying off loans and not knowing where I was going, I think that made me a better writer.
- [14:57]
Danielle Robay
I want to go back to something you said about art and discomfort because you actually just did a TED talk on that topic. One of my favorite questions to ask people at a party as an icebreaker, like if the conversation is getting boring, I'll throw out. If you were to get on stage right now and give a 10 minute TED talk, what are you talking to me about? What are you sharing?
- [15:20]
Leigh Bardugo
What a great question.
- [15:22]
Danielle Robay
Well, it's kind of fun because you get the inner workings of what's really on, what's important to somebody. But you chose discomfort and art. And I am dying to know why.
- [15:33]
Reese's Book Club Host
Out of all the things you could.
- [15:34]
Danielle Robay
Have shared, you're an expert in so many things. Why about like discomfort in art?
- [15:41]
Leigh Bardugo
Because if you look at my on paper, I look like exactly the kind of person who would become an author, right? She went to merman, she went to Yale. You know, I won a poetry contest, you know, like great. But I graduated in 1997 and I didn't publish until I was 37. That's, you know, takes a while once you sell the book to come out. That's 15 years. I think that's 15 years. Again, don't ask me to do math, but I wanted to know what had kept me from that for so long. And I remember being at my first book event ever. It was my own little signing that I organized the night before I was about to go on tour for Shadow and Bone for the first time. And I talked about how I was in a dark place, that I had been in the grips of a years long depression when I wrote Shadow and Bone, that this book and this shift was my way out of all of that. And someone in the audience was like, what made it possible? Like after all of these years, what made that possible? And I didn't have an answer. I didn't really have an answer. And so for me, understanding the role discomfort plays in art, excavating that and understanding it has been a fundamental part of how I work and how I communicate to new authors. And I wanted to talk about that. And I also think we are now living in a time where Discomfort has not just been erased from the making of art, but the consuming of art, the way our expectations of what we consume have changed, have shifted. And even in life, I think we shy away from discomfort, from conflict, from anything that takes us away from our sort of well worn treads. And I think that's a huge loss.
- [17:22]
Danielle Robay
I never thought about it in consuming art as well. I'm wondering how the discomfort shows up for you. How do you recognize it now?
- [17:30]
Leigh Bardugo
So I used to look at discomfort as it was like a red flag to me. Oh, no, I'm having this feeling I should step away from this. And I can say that this was most acute, of course, in the writing of my first book. And then you have to write your first sequel, which is its own terrifying tang. And then you have to conclude a trilogy for the first time. Also very scary. So there's always something new that is going to be scary for you. But when I was writing Six of Crows, which I think I can accurately say is the book that changed the trajectory of my career, I sold that book on Proposal. And I knew it was a great idea. I knew it was a great pitch. But while I was writing it, I just kept thinking, oh my God, somebody's smarter than I am should be writing this book. I don't have the chops. My first trilogy was all written in first person POV. Aside from the prologues and epilogues, this was third person. Five different POVs, flashbacks, cons, heists, you name it, I had packed it into this book. Great. I don't know how to do this. Well, the only way you learn is by doing and the only way out is through. So for me, I have to look back on that experience and see the way that shifted my career and say, oh, discomfort. When I experience that, when I have that feeling, instead of turning away from it, I'm going to open my arms and I'm going to turn toward it. I'm not putting my. I'm not going to pick up my phone. I'm not going to clean out my closet. I'm not going to shift to something that feels easier. No, no, no. I am going to acknowledge that. And I'm going to ask myself what is scary about this and how to walk towards that with some confidence. And that, I think, is the way interesting work gets done.
- [19:11]
Danielle Robay
There's a book called the Talent Code by Daniel Coyle. It's a very thin, short book. And he talks about deep practice and I'm not great with science, but he does talk about something that happens in Your brain with myelin. And the friction is actually what triggers the brain to grow. So there is scientific backing to everything you are talking about in terms of discomfort and art and practice.
- [19:37]
Leigh Bardugo
The analogy I always use is athletics. Or you could use this for musicians, too. You'd never see somebody who is a concert pianist or an athlete standing on a podium. You'd think, oh, I bet they got there never practicing. I bet they got there never experiencing discomfort. We know fundamental. We know in our bodies that to train is painful. To try a new skill is scary, right? But those things are fundamental to achieving something that other people can't do. If art were easy, everybody would do it, right? And now you have AI that comes along and says, oh, guess what? We'll make it easy. And Ted Chiang is one of my. My favorite people to. He's a wonderful author, but he's also just so brilliant on AI. And he. He used the analogy of using AI to write is like using AI to lift weights for you, like using a forklift to lift weights for you. The weight got lifted. Did you get any stronger? Did you get any better? And you know, within the writing community, we tend to talk about AI in terms of copyright theft. They've stolen our ip, They've stolen our copyright. It's unethical, yes, but they're also stealing the experience of writing, of creating from creators. You are missing out on the opportunity to wrestle with something and create something new. You are missing the satisfaction of that. And those good days that we have as writers, as artists, those good days are so fantastic. That feeling of flow is so spectacular. Well, guess what? You're never going to actually get that by using these tools that are supposed to make you smarter, better, faster, pretend to just. Just give you the easy way through.
- [21:13]
Danielle Robay
So well said. It's cheating on a test, cheating on a person. You're really cheating yourself. You're cheating yourself out of the hard conversation or the growth, all of it.
- [21:21]
Leigh Bardugo
And the deliciousness. Like, yes, I. We talk so much about the hard work of art, but art is fun to make. It's gratifying to make. It's when I'm having, like, a good writing week where I've been working every day, and I can feel the progress I make and I can see the shape of the story. It's like I'm on a high. Like, my husband can tell when I'm walking around the house. Like, I'm amazing. And it's not that every word I'm writing, writing is brilliant. It's that I am in the state of creating, and I am proving myself with every problem I overcome and every word I write. And that is so deeply satisfying. And I think it gives us a sense of purpose as artists. That, to me, is why we're in it.
- [22:07]
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- [22:39]
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- [23:38]
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- [24:32]
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- [25:04]
Reese's Book Club Host
Best place to read, listen to or discover the books you love without a subscription right on your iPhone. And now there's a very exciting heads up for listeners. Apple Books is the official audiobook and ebook home for Reese's Book Club. So it's easier than ever to explore each monthly book pick, plus author curated collections and more all in one place. Open the Apple Books app to explore a world of books and audiobooks. You can set goals and track your reading progress. Get great recommendations for your next read or listen and enjoy it all on the go, wherever you are. You can even share your books with up to five family members at no cost. Again, no subscription required. Visit Apple co reeseapplebooks to find out more. That's Apple co reeseapplebooks and read or listen to Reese's current Pick and browse past selections. Today on Apple Books.
- [26:13]
Danielle Robay
We at Bookmark sort of get a masterclass in Leigh Bardugo brilliance. So now that you've sold 25 million books, there are so many aspiring writers listening. How does somebody take the first step? What do you say to them?
- [26:27]
Leigh Bardugo
The first step is to finish a draft, okay. And to find your way through that draft so you will learn more from a flawed beginning, middle and end than you will learn from a thousand perfect beginnings or perfect paragraphs. Once you finish that draft, find readers you trust. That's the next hoop that you have to jump through. Because you will not be able to see problems in that draft that other people will or you need to. If you cannot find those things, if you don't have that community or you can't build that community, you step back, work on something else, let your brain recover from that so that you can sort of regain clarity when you come back to it. Because I call it going page blind like you. You literally can't see the patterns that are, that are in front of you. Then. Then there's the hoop of exposing yourself to critique, right? Exposing yourself to, to Criticism and to not being where you want to be. It's also, you need to get used to that, because guess what? You're gonna have to do that with agents, and then you're gonna have to do that with editors, and then you're gonna have to do that with readers and all the people online who want to tell you how you didn't write to write the book. So all of that is part of the process. But the most important thing I can say to aspiring writers is there is no expiration date on your talent. Okay, again, we live. I'm a late bloomer, right? Published at 37. There are people who don't publish until they're in their 40s, in their 50s, and guess what? That doesn't change the success they have now. I know it feels urgent because our culture loves youth, and it always has. It always has. Like, oh, we love the feeling that we've discovered a wunderkind. Oh, we found a gifted child. How fabulous. But if you have a story to tell, it's a story nobody else can tell. And the idea that that story is somehow less Valuable when you're 48 than when you're 18 is a game that culture plays on you, and we need to not fall for that. That's a con.
- [28:17]
Danielle Robay
One of the things I've noticed is that your aesthetic is as recognizable as your prose or your writing. Dare I say it's even very Stevie Nicks with, like, a gothic lean, dark lipstick, bold outfit, maybe. Love of all things Gothic. Really? How do fans describe your style?
- [28:36]
Leigh Bardugo
I mean, my favorite description has been Goth auntie. Like, that's. That's. That's where I like to live. And I always say I have two settings. I have pajama and drama. Like, I had to go to a meeting at Netflix once, and I was like, I literally have nothing to wear because I either am in, like, you know, a T shirt and. And jeans, or I'm decked out because I love. I love. I love clothes that feel like an event. This is probably because I had to wear uniforms when I was a kid. And now I'm like, I can. I can wear all of the lace and fringe that I wish to, but for me, that's always been an aesthetic that I love, and I always get happy when I. When I see people in all black in my line.
- [29:15]
Danielle Robay
You absolutely cannot go on booktok without seeing one of your titles. Recommended. Has there been any ele elements of stories or characters or ideas that you've actually incorporated into your books that came.
- [29:32]
Leigh Bardugo
From fans no, And I know that's probably not a popular answer because. And to be very clear, I have probably. I think. I mean, not that I'm biased, but I think I have an absolutely phenomenal fandom.
- [29:44]
Danielle Robay
You do.
- [29:45]
Leigh Bardugo
And they're sort of different fandoms. Like the fandom for Ninth House is considerably different from the. The fandom for Six of Crows. But I'm grateful to have anybody who wants to read my book. So. But for me as a writer, I don't want to be influenced by criticism or praise. Right. And this is, I think, something that has been lost in the age of social media. One of the things that I think is most important for writers and artists is to keep something special for yourself, to let an idea you know, I don't know if you garden at all, but if you take a seed and you expose it to sun too soon, it won't grow. It needs time in the dark. It needs time to gestate or. I don't actually know the right words. Science. Again, terrifying. But that's a fundamental part of the process, and I think we've lost that because people are so eager for likes and follows that they will put art out there before it's really ready and until they feel real ownership and certainty around it. So you get praised for one thing. You just keep reinforcing that. You're not going to try something new. You get criticized for something. You're going to shy away from that, as opposed to sort of asking yourself, okay, what's an interesting place? I can go with this. So I try really hard to shut those voices out. And it's why I struggle so much. It's kind of you to call me prolific, but I know there are many authors who are more prolific. And when I'm touring, when I'm doing a lot of podcasts, when I'm promoting a lot on social media, that is when I am at my least productive and creative. I have not learned how to do those things at the same time. That awareness of the public self really messes with my process.
- [31:24]
Danielle Robay
It's almost like there's an avatar of who you are that's online, but you are active on substack and on Instagram. So it is important to have this connection with your fans. Do you just think about it more so as Leigh Bardugo having that connection and less as, like entertaining ideas and fan theories?
- [31:47]
Leigh Bardugo
I think I think of it as. And again, this is something that I'm still trying to navigate, and I imagine you are, too. When I wrote the Familiar I was writing about a woman whose ambition makes her visible, right. And the danger that then comes with that visibility. And I think anybody who is trying to make something and put it out in the world has experienced this. I think it's particularly acute for women, this sense of the more visible become, the visible I become, the more popular I become, the greater, the bigger the target that's on my back. And that's something I've been sort of keenly aware of in the social media space. But to me, you know, Instagram is fundamentally a marketing tool. That said, we've been celebrating the Six of Crows 10th anniversary, and people have been posting their tattoos and their cosplay. And to me, that's like this beautiful reminder of. Of we don't know where our work will be in five years and 10 years. We don't know where we'll be in five years or 10 years. But seeing people take the time to do these things or to mark their bodies in this permanent way, to me, that's the most beautiful, positive side of all of this. And it's something we didn't get to see as writers and creators before social media existed. So I can't say that it's without purpose or beauty.
- [33:03]
Danielle Robay
I think so many of those tattoos and illustrations and fan work or fan artwork is because you have built these worlds that feel so real. How do you keep track of all the threads? What is your process? I kind of imagine it like as your office looking like this Charlie Day string map in that episode of all of the Time.
- [33:23]
Leigh Bardugo
There's a lot of truth to that, actually. Well, I always start with a new notebook, right where all the notes are going in. I use a program called Scrivener that I found incredibly useful for keeping track of research and ideas. But my attitude toward tools for writing and for tracking worlds is whatever works for you. I know people who do everything digitally. I know people who do everything analog. When I was writing Six of Crows, I even would. When I was building the heist, I would plug things into Google Calendar because I had to keep track of where everybody was at the same time. But I picked a year way out in advance. And so then, like two years later, I would get this notification like, Jesper and Wylan are on the roof. And I was like, okay, so for me, it's whatever it takes. I love a whiteboard. I literally have a character say in Ninth House that all whiteboards are magical, and they are because they're a way of finding clarity. But, yeah, I still, though I don't have a big bible somewhere with all of everything you need to know about this world in it. My publishers have an equivalent and after we did the adaptation for the show, that was kind of necessary because they needed that kind of resource for it. But I don't reread my work. I did reread the trilogy before I wrote the King of Scars Duology because I had been away from the Grishaverse for a long time and that was wise because I had made some errors that I needed to correct. And I also reread Ninth House in Hellbent in preparation for writing the third and final book in that series. Series, which is hopefully to come out in September of next year.
- [35:02]
Danielle Robay
There are a few people that I learned to ask questions from. Some in person, some virtually. Like who I consider great journalists who taught you how to world build. Was there anybody that you studied?
- [35:13]
Leigh Bardugo
I didn't study, I just read copiously. You know, I grew up reading a ton of science fiction and fantasy. But I'll also say, I think we tend to think of world building in terms of genre when the reality is that world building happens in every piece of fiction we read. So if you're reading a, a spy thriller set in dc, chances are you have, I, I, you know, maybe you haven't been to Washington D.C. and certainly you haven't worked in spycraft or, I don't know, industrial espionage or whatever it's going to be based on. You read about a murder in a small town. Okay, well maybe you grew up in the big city and all of these books. And when I'm telling people how to learn about world building, I'm like, pay attention to everything in genre and outside of genre. Because what you are doing is you're just trying to orient the reader. You're trying to give them a sense of how power operates in your world so that they can orient around that. And you're trying to give them a sense of place, the textures of this world, how economy works in this world. And all of those things start to merge together and then begin to feel like the actual world or the culture of the world. And so to me we can learn a lot more from non genre writers and genre writers and But I will say George R.R. martin was somebody who I discovered as an adult and who I think really taught me that geography was destiny. And it's that to me he writes squalor like nobody else. So I really enjoy the way he world builds. And I think that definitely had an impact on the way I thought about my world.
- [36:46]
Danielle Robay
I Read that you wrote 15 books in 15 years.
- [36:50]
Reese's Book Club Host
Is that true?
- [36:51]
Leigh Bardugo
I don't know. I'd have to look. I mean, not all of those. If that's true, not all of them were novels. I have a book of short stories. I have a book of Saints Lives. I have. So they're not all novels. So I don't know if I can say that, but I think it's a good sign that I've lost track.
- [37:15]
Danielle Robay
I appreciate your humility, but 15 books in 15 years, my brain cannot even process that level of productivity. Has your work and your word choice and your dialogue and plot, has it evolved over time? Would you say it's even improved?
- [37:32]
Leigh Bardugo
Yes, I hope it has. I've worked really hard on it. And I think if you read Shadow and Bone and then you read Six of Crows, or if you read Six of Crows and then you read Ninth House, or if you read Ninth House and the Familiar, like, you will see. I think I became a better writer when. When. Okay, I. Actually, I can point to. I became a better writer for, I think, two big reasons. Okay. One, I had an amazing editor on my first five books who was such a curmudgeon and so hard to impress. And so she pushed me. Like, if I was coming up with some, you know, frilly, fancy metaphor, she'd be like, what does this mean? What does it mean? Not quite there yet. Not sure. But when you got it, she would let you know, like, okay, okay, well done. Beautiful. And I am somebody. You know, I was a grade grabber, so I'm like, I'm gonna get that a. I don't care what I have to do. So she taught me to push harder and harder on the sentence level and on every paragraph and to really dig deep on the work. And I think that's so important. The other thing was I wrote short stories in between each book in the Shadow and Bone trilogy. And I think working in shorter form, working in short stories, working in poetry, even working in picture books, I think gives you an opportunity to pay much closer attention to language, and it forces you to be economical in a way that novels don't. A short story will not tolerate you wandering around in circles for a few chapters. It just will not. And so I think that made me a better.
- [39:06]
Danielle Robay
Neither do my Instagram caption.
- [39:08]
Leigh Bardugo
There you go. You're working in short form, but you're not wrong. You have a certain amount of space case to make a point, to have a beginning, a middle, and an end and to leave people with a strong impression. Like, these are important skills. And I found that really effective in becoming a better author. But I think, I don't know, like, you know, I'm always hesitant to say this because I know people will be like, well, I thought this book was my favorite book of yours or that book was your my favorite book of yours. And people, what's your favorite? And my answer is the last one I wrote. If it isn't, then I'm not doing this right. Then I'm not embracing. I am not approaching this career that I'm so lucky to have with the same degree of passion that I began it with. If I do not love the last book the best.
- [39:50]
Danielle Robay
You've now had two big page to screen adaptations, Shadow and Bone, which was a Netflix series, and more recently ninth House, which you're set to executive produce. What did you learn the first time around that you're going to be doing differently in this new adaptation?
- [40:06]
Leigh Bardugo
I think I learned how much I wanted to be involved and where I wanted to be involved. I was very fortunate to have a good adaptation experience with they took Shadow and Bone and Six of Crows and mushed them together to create the Shadow and Bone series. And I learned very quickly that I think the best lesson I can give to people who are potentially getting involved in adaptation is one, if you can get it in your contract that they have to keep the title the same do I didn't, but I got lucky. They probably won't let you unless you're a big superstar, but always something to ask for. And two, that you have to pick your partners wisely and then trust them to do what they do best. And sometimes that works well and you'll be happy with the results. And sometimes it doesn't, but you at least will continue to respect the people you're working with. And that I think is sort of the most important part of the process. But with ninth House, I wanted to be involved in co writing that pilot. That was important to me, but with the familiar we're working on that adaptation. And that was when I knew I needed to step back from because all the people who were interested in it were interested in it for tv. And that meant really expanding that story. And I was like, I know I'm too close to this. I'm too on the heels of writing it to see big picture potential here.
- [41:23]
Danielle Robay
Leigh, I love asking our guests what they've bookmarked. Bookmarked this week. It can be a weird fact, a fun quote, something you saved on Instagram, something you texted your best friend about. What have you Leigh Bardugo bookmarked this week.
- [41:40]
Leigh Bardugo
I just the other day sent a Yates quote to a friend because she was sort of being pressured to take a project public sooner than she felt it was ready. And it's a quote. It's one of my all time favorite quotes and it's be secret and exalt because of all things known that is most difficult. And to me that's sort of the heart of I believe the title of that poem is to an artist whose work has come to nothing or to a friend whose work has come to nothing. Which is not to say her work will. I think her work will do very well, but I think that that's so important Again, at a time when we seem to measure our worth in likes follows the number that's attached to your advance, the number of books that you sell, your slot on the bestseller list. To remember that, to know your why, and to know what you care about in the creative process so that you can hold tight to that when you don't get all the accolades and perks.
- [42:47]
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- [45:29]
Reese's Book Club Host
Best place to read, listen to or discover the books you love without a subscription right on your iPhone. And now there's a very exciting heads up for listeners. Apple Books is the official audiobook and ebook home for Reese's Book Club, so it's easier than ever to explore each monthly book page, plus author curated collections and more all in one place. Open the Apple Books app to explore a world of books and audiobooks. You can set goals and track your reading progress. Get great recommendations for your next read or listen and enjoy it all on the go, wherever you are. You can even share your books with up to five family members at no cost. Again, no subscription required. Visit Apple co reesapplebooks to find out more. That's Apple co reeseapplebooks and read or listen to Reese's current Pick and browse past selections today on Apple Books.
- [46:40]
Danielle Robay
Now the Alex Stern trilogy, which is Ninth House Hellbent, and the 2026 upcoming novel which you jokingly call Tokyo Drama Drift. It's all about secret societies and dark magic and murder set among the Ivy League elite. And you went to Yale and you were a member of the Wolf's Head secret society. The only thing I know about secret societies is from Gilmore Girls and that happened to be at Yale actually. So I'm dying to know what it's really like. Like why is it Secret. Is it just sort of like a marketing mechanism or is there really something dark and magical happen, happening at these Ivy Leagues?
- [47:21]
Leigh Bardugo
So if you go walk around the Yale campus, okay, and you can follow my map, all of the structures are real that I talk about in the book. And all of the tombs of these secret societies, they're called tombs, but they're really just clubhouses with no windows are littered across campus. So you can see the big Tudor mansion that Wolfshead lives in. You can see Skull and Bones, you know, home to many US Presidents and. And publishers and Secretaries of State. You name it, they've had them in that hall. It's built to look like an old Egyptian temple built out of red rock. It's right there on High Street. You can walk right by it. And these are what are known as the Ancient Eight or the Landed Societies. They're societies that have these big sort of glorious buildings and that have been around for a very long time. I think scroll and Key Wolf's Head and Skull and Bones were the first three, and they're very proud of that. But as a student going there, I was obsessed with these buildings and what they signified and this bizarre tension of, we're a secret, but we're going to build a giant temple in the middle of campus. So it has this vibe that's like, look at me, but don't look at me, look at me, but stay away. Like, it's this very coy game that is played by the societies. And they started as basically, Phi Beta Kappa did not start out as an academic honor society. Phi Beta Kappa started out as basically a drinking club, right? And these were. It was all dudes and mostly white dudes who were in. In university at the time, started out as a drinking club and they were secret. And then this thing happened in the United States where this guy published a book on the Masons. And all of a sudden there was this like really intense anti Masonic sentiment. Like, what are they doing in there? What conspiracies are they doing? Like what evil culty things are they're doing? And so all of these societies and clubs stepped away from secrecy. So Phi Beta Kappa comes to Yale and they're like, well, we're not going to be secret next year. And a bunch of guys were there like, we want to be secret. We've been so excited to be secret. We want our secret drinking club. And they were the people who founded Skull and Bones. So that's what it grew out of. Now there are, I think, hundreds of, quote, unquote secret societies are now called senior societies at Yale. Some of them have a room they meet in, an apartment they meet in. There's a thing they do where it's called personal histories, pHs or bios, where you essentially tell your life story to the group. I actually found it to be an incredibly positive thing. This forced me to hang out with a lot of very different people from different backgrounds, which I loved. When you spend hours listening to someone's story, you find places of commonality that are really beautiful. Now, is all of this in this book, in this series? No, it's about occult magic and economic influence, social influence, essentially. Magical influence just being one more thing that certain people get to hoard in elite spaces. So for me, those books were about hyper mystifying the world of the societies as opposed to demystifying them, which I think is really boring.
- [50:12]
Reese's Book Club Host
Yeah, that's the journalism of it.
- [50:16]
Danielle Robay
And you're building a fantasy world. I love that. I was reading and watching some of the tour celebrating Six of Crows, which has its 10th anniversary this year. And the book is in the Grishaverse, which comprises over 10 and novels. You've said that the world started with a map and a question. My one question for you that I'm hoping you will feel comfortable sharing is what was the question?
- [50:44]
Leigh Bardugo
What if darkness was a place? When I was working as a makeup artist around Halloween, you get real busy, right? Because all of your friends are suddenly like people you haven't talked to in forever. Like, I would like to be mystique. Will you paint me blue for free? The answer is no. But my solution to this was to run away and to leave town. And I got invited to a Halloween party in the Mammoth area up in the mountains. And when I arrived, I discovered that I would pay for this by doing makeup for not just the host, who I had happily volunteered for, but for a number of their guests as well. So my Halloween was sort of not a great one. And I was totally wiped out after that. And the next night, everybody went to dinner and I stayed home to read. And I don't remember what I was reading, but I fell asle. And when I woke up, the house was dark. And I mean, not city dark, country dark, where you can't see your hand in front of your face. And I was terrified. I was sure that, you know, the serial killers always wait for you to wake up, obviously. So I'm sure there's somebody in the house with me. I don't know where the light switches are. When I finally calm down, find the lights, et cetera. I'm getting ready for bed. I can't stop thinking about this. What if darkness was a place? What if the monsters you imagined there were real? What if you had to fight them on their own territory? There was just sort of question after question after question, and that was, what? What led to? I mean, because then the next question is, okay, well, there's a dark territory crawling with monsters. Why would you go in there? Like, maybe just don't go in there. End of story. And so then I had to come up with an idea of, okay, well, maybe this country has been torn in two, and this is the way they access their coastline and ports. And so that then led to the creation of the map, which is literally east and west in a line cutting down through it, which became the shot. But that's where a lot of ideas begin. They begin with something small and awkward and clumsy, but that excites you. The best ideas, I think, are the ideas that keep providing those questions and that you want to sort of stay up all night talking with.
- [52:45]
Danielle Robay
And you followed that thread. There was something. It was gnawing at you.
- [52:49]
Leigh Bardugo
I followed that thread. I think what I had to get used to was sometimes I wasn't going to know the answers to the question. But the important thing was to know the question and to then let your brain do that thing and to have the confidence to know that and look the thing that. An outline. The gift that gave me was, okay, I don't know what goes here. I'm gonna put a placeholder, or I'm gonna put the questions, and then I'm gonna move on to the next thing, and I'm gonna keep my momentum through this project, and I don't ever have to feel that feeling of running off the cliff and your little legs working, you know, to keep you afloat while you're trying to learn how to fly. Instead, it was, okay, I'm gonna build a brain bridge, goes from this spot to this spot to this spot. So I know where I'm headed, even if I don't know where every plank goes on this particular structure. And for me, that's the way I build. I have friends who revise as they go, right? They revise as they go. They write a chapter, then they revise it. They revise it. They revise it. They need to have those things really honed in order to move on to the next thing. Everybody's process is different, and you have to find yours.
- [53:52]
Danielle Robay
All right, now I want to do speed read with you, which means I'm putting 60 seconds on the clock, and we're gonna see just how many rapid fire literary questions you can get through your brain fires so quickly. I feel like you're gonna get through a lot. Are you ready?
- [54:05]
Leigh Bardugo
I should have had more coffee. Okay, let's do this. Okay.
- [54:09]
Danielle Robay
Three, two. Which one of your characters are you secretly the most like?
- [54:16]
Leigh Bardugo
Um, I mean, there's a little bit of me and everyone. I don't know. I'm occasionally megalomaniac, so maybe I'm secretly like the darkling.
- [54:27]
Danielle Robay
If you could live vicariously through one of your characters, who would it be?
- [54:33]
Leigh Bardugo
Oh, gosh, probably Darlington, because he's brilliant, he has a thousand skills, he lives in a crumbling mansion. Yeah. And he and I share very much the like. Surely magic is around the corner. Feeling like. I think I built my desperate love of a desperate need for magic into. Into him. Yeah.
- [54:56]
Danielle Robay
What book shaped the way you see the world?
- [54:59]
Leigh Bardugo
Oh, gosh. What book shaped honestly? Dune. Dune was like my high school survival guide. It was like, be prepared, be brave. It's full of all the instructions of his tutors. I think that that was really important to me. So maybe Dune. Yeah, it also. It was sort of the first world I fell into and did not want to come out of.
- [55:21]
Danielle Robay
That's a great statement, Lee. Thank you so much for joining us. You are as smart as you are funny, as you are insightful and sincere, and I really enjoyed this conversation.
- [55:34]
Leigh Bardugo
You are delightful and thank you for all the amazing questions. This was really fun and challenging. I like that out of the comfort zone. Yeah, I love that.
- [55:42]
Danielle Robay
Thank you. Yeah. We went through the discomfort together.
- [55:45]
Leigh Bardugo
We did, we did. And we ended up on the other side.
- [55:55]
Reese's Book Club Host
And if you want a little bit more from us, come hang with us on socials. We're at Reese's Book Club on Instagram, serving up books, vibes, and behind the scenes magic. And I'm Danielle Robay.
- [56:05]
Danielle Robay
R O B A Y.
- [56:06]
Reese's Book Club Host
Come say hi and DM me.
- [56:09]
Danielle Robay
And if you want to go 90s.
- [56:10]
Reese's Book Club Host
On us, call us.
- [56:12]
Danielle Robay
Okay.
- [56:13]
Reese's Book Club Host
Our phone line is open, so call now at 1-501291-3379. That's 1-501-291-3379.
- [56:26]
Danielle Robay
Share your literary hot takes, book recommendations.
- [56:29]
Reese's Book Club Host
Questions about the monthly pick or let us know what you think about the episode you just heard. And who knows, you might just hear yourself in our next episode. So don't be shy, give us a ring. And of course, make sure to follow. Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast or wherever you get your shows.
- [56:49]
Danielle Robay
Until then, see you in the next chapter.
- [56:53]
Reese's Book Club Host
Bookmarked is a production of hello Sunshine and iheart Podcast. It's executive produced by Reese Witherspoon and me, Danielle Robay.
- [57:01]
Danielle Robay
Production is by Acast Creative Studio. Our producers are Maddie Foley, Brittany Martinez, Sarah Schleed and Darby Masters. Our production assistant is Avery Loftus. Jenny Kaplan and Emily Rutter are the.
- [57:14]
Reese's Book Club Host
Executive producers for Acast Creative Studios. Maureen Polo and Reese Witherspoon are the executive producers for hello Sunshine. Olga Kaminwa, Kristin Perla, Kelly Turner and Ashley Rapoport are associate producers for Reese's Book Club.
- [57:30]
Danielle Robay
Ali Perry and Lauren Hanson are the executive producers for iHeart podcasts.
- [57:41]
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- [58:11]
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- [59:18]
Leigh Bardugo
Number.
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- [60:15]
Reese's Book Club Host
To you by Cotton Cotton we spend a lot of time with stories, hours curled up with dynamic plots and characters.
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Danielle Robay
Who feel like friends.
- [60:22]
Reese's Book Club Host
What if the story isn't just in your hands, but also in the world around you, in the fabric that's holding you close? Cotton is that timeless companion. Soft sheets for a lazy weekend morning with a book. Breezy dresses for afternoons spent reading in the backyard. It's the fabric that can be tossed in the wash without fuss. It's about ease, comfort, and caring for yourself and the plan. Just like books we cherish, cotton weaves meaning into everyday moments. Next time you settle in for a chapter, slip into something Cotton not just to read the story, but to feel it. Cotton the fabric of our lives. Learn more@thefabricofourlives.com this is an I Heart podcast.