B (3:37)

And.

A (3:37)

And I don't want to overstate it, but she might be my new bestie. What inspires you to write these women who are not likable or good?

B (3:46)

Because I don't believe women who are likable or good, to be honest with you. I mean, I myself lead a life of blameless purity. Of course, let's establish that.

A (3:54)

But me, too.

B (3:57)

Yes. Okay.

A (3:58)

Philippa is the woman behind over 50 historical fiction novels set across medieval and. And Tudor England. She is a researcher. I can't state that enough. A researcher. Deeply obsessed. Primary sources, dusty archives, the whole thing. And she transforms those public records into stories that feel so deeply and beautifully personal to women. She basically ushered in a whole new era of historical fiction where the women in the footnotes are instead at the center of the story.

B (4:30)

Story?

A (4:31)

I'm not kidding. She pulls receipts from 500 years ago. She'll take a character mentioned maybe twice in a history book and deep dive into research to build out her entire world, her inner life, her motivations, her complications. The woman who history dismissed in a single sentence gets 400 pages. It's no surprise that several of her books have been adapted for film and tv. Right. You might know the Other Boleyn Girl, which starred Natalie Portman and Scarlett Johansson. But Philippa doesn't think she's giving women from centuries ago a voice. She thinks she's giving us. You, me, everyone listening stories about ourselves. And she says she's doing it so we know where we come from and then maybe more importantly, where we can go. You are in the right place. Let's turn The Page with Philippa Gregory. Philippa, welcome to the club.

B (5:27)

Thank you so much. It's a pleasure to be with you.

A (5:29)

Well, you've really spent your whole career showing how women's private lives shape the public world, and you've written some very juicy, very complicated characters along the way. And with that in mind, who would be the worst dinner guest and who would secretly be the most fun?

B (5:49)

I think Anne Boleyn would be the worst dinner guest because she is on the record for poisoning Archbishop Fisherman. So you don't really want someone who is experiencing poisons at your dinner table.

A (6:01)

I feel like the Boleyn sisters would be so wild to be in a group chat with. For those who don't know as much about them, which notable celebrity would you compare each sister to?

B (6:13)

Oh, you've got the wrong person here. I'm so sorry. I don't know celebrities. If you spend your life in medieval and Tudor England, you're not really up to speed. Mary Boleyn, we know historically very, very little about her. Anne Boleyn is probably the best recorded woman in the Tudor world. So we know that she was ambitious, highly intelligent, very alluring, but not conventionally beautiful. And we know that Mary Boleyn was very pretty and very agreeable and more sexually permissive than her sister, unless she was coerced. But the problem with consent is, in the ancient world as today, is that it's very, very difficult to figure out who is asking what and who is saying what. And that's particularly important to me when I'm writing the lives of historical women.

A (7:03)

That comes through in nearly all of your work. One of the things I'm particularly interested in asking you is when you realize that the power often lives in the personal and not the public record. Because most historians and writers go straight to public record.

B (7:22)

Yes, but you have to then read the public record with a genuine curiosity and a genuine desire to know about women. Women are all over the public records, but they're mostly recorded for crime or for misbehaving in a way that the men who are the record keepers don't like. So we have lots of records of rioting women. We have lots of records of criminal women, and we have lots of records, for instance, of witchcraft. But we have to read the records and say, are these women really rioting, or are they taking place in a bit of social theater whereby they appear to threaten, say, bakers and corn merchants, and then they get the bread or the corn sold to them at the right price? That might be a very famous historian E.P. thompson said the political economy of theater, that, like, everybody knows this isn't a riot. Everybody knows this is a demonstration. And only the elite and the men who are frightened of these women call it a riot. Similarly with witchcraft. We believe now that most of the trials of witches were actually constructed out of male fear. And so there's plenty of women in the record. But you have to read the records to find the real women. You can't take them at face value.

A (8:42)

Can you help me understand your process more in that way? Like, how do you even dig into private records? Is it based on rumors and pass down stories? How do you get your information and your data?

B (8:55)

There's a tremendous amount which is literally not just written recorded, but it's now digitized. So I now research from my study. I'm in my study now. This is my research material. So a lot of it is simply written and published. It's not hard to find. There's a question of how you read it, which is really, really important. But there's a tremendous amount still untapp in records, in private records, or in libraries that people haven't bothered to read or in, you know, catalogues that people haven't gone through. Or I always say to people, you know, if you've got a chest in your attic with writing in it, have a look at it. Because it may well be a lost record, or it might be a record which hasn't even been lost. It might be your grandmother's diaries, and they are now history. So, you know, really, really respect the documents that you happen to have access to. And then when you read them, read them, what I say is, you read through them. You don't read the surface story. You read right the way through it and try and imagine the lives of the people who are often wrongly described.

A (10:00)

When you say read through, how does one do that? Are you picking up on context clues? What do you mean by that?

B (10:05)

I think it's bearing in mind that everybody is always an unreliable witness. You never, never trust anybody's word as a historian. It's almost like being a detective. So when I say, have the account of a riot, I know that it will be written by a man because the women who are rioting are probably illiterate. So you very rarely get a letter from a working class woman up until the 18th century. So I know that this is a man recording it. Then you read what he says, and he says they were, you know, a motley bunch in rags and terrifying to be seen, and they let out a terrifying yell and a scream. And they didn't have weapons, but they were absolutely terrifying. And if you're reading this carefully, you go like, okay, so they were poor, they were not well dressed, they were not well behaved. By your standard Mr. Man, whoever you are, Mr. Justice of the Peace, they don't have weapons, so they're not gone to kill anybody. They're not there armed for a fight. They are there doing, if you think of it sympathetically, peaceful civil disobedience. And what we see in our own world now as well as then, is the fact that the people who report it first are the ones who set, as it were, the prism on it. The way we see it is set by the people who report it. And up until the 19th century, that's always going to be the rich men. And so their report is always going to be on the side of rich men, which is always going to be against poor women.

A (11:41)

You know, Gloria Steinem often says that history is written by the winners. Oftentimes in these records, history is written by the rich men. How does this affect how you read other books, like when you read memoirs? Are you constantly asking yourself, is this a reliable witness? What does this story actually mean about their interior lives?

B (12:02)

I always start off saying, this is an unreliable witness. We are all unreliable witnesses. When I am even telling you things, there are things, naturally, which I am withholding. The days I can't be bothered to read carefully. The days when I take something at face value, the days when my own prejudices overcome me. We're all unreliable witnesses. I never believe anything anybody tells me anymore. And at the same time, I am naturally an optimist and I'm always hopeful. But one of the things that's really wonderful about looking at historical documents with immense skepticism is that sometimes what you read through them is a completely thrilling untold history. And for instance, in my new novel, the Boleyn Traitor, I suggest that Jane Boleyn, sister in law to Anne Boleyn, was working as a spy for Thomas Cromwell. There's nothing of that on the record in an absolutely clear way, except, you see, when she gets money and when she doesn't, when she gets position and she doesn't, when she gets position when nobody else gets position, are only when the times when Cromwell is in power and there's no, as it were, smoking gun there. There's just a suggestion that that's what's happening.

A (13:21)

So I was a trained journalist for years and I was taught in newsrooms to ask myself three questions. The first is, who wrote the story. The second is who's missing from the story, and the third is who benefits from the story? Are there any specific questions? I love that you're nodding your head.

B (13:38)

I mean, I'm nodding my head enthusiastically. I also trained as a journalist and I worked as a journalist, so for provincial press and also for the BBC. And one of the quotes that I remember really, really vividly is a very famous BBC man journalist, who said, why are the lying bastards lying to me? I love that. Not are they, but why are they? And I think you just have to always assume that when someone writes something down, it's for a reason. And even if they say it's just to record that it happened, why do they want to record that it happened? What is there about this that leads them to pen? And the same for your own journals and memoirs and, you know, diaries. There always is a reason for you wanting to record an event which, if you read it critically, takes you beyond the surface of the story.

A (14:32)

We're going to get into your background a little bit more because how you became a historian is actually quite funny to me. But I am curious about more of your process in terms of. You write fiction books, but they're rooted in history. So when do you decide that the history stops and the fiction starts? How do you determine this?

B (14:55)

I'm really interested that you describe it in those terms, because what people often say to me is, how much is fiction, how much is history? And that's impossible to describe. It's every book there's a different proportion, because for every book I have more facts or less facts about my two protagonists. But what you say is, how far, in a sense, how far into the narrative does it go before you turn to fiction? And quite often, if I have a lot of someone's biography, I can go a long, long, long way without ever not writing what is in a history book. So you could pick up the novel and you could pick up a history book. You could read them side by side and you would say, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. The difference between a fiction and a history, the difference between a historical fiction and a straight history, is that as a novelist, I am allowed, indeed, it is my job to talk about the inner life and to talk about the psychology of people and the feelings of people. When I'm writing as a historian, and I write history too, I'm not licensed to do that unless I have evidence for it. And up until about the middle of the 18th century, we have very, very, very few records of what women felt or what Women thought we have some records, not a great deal of what they did, but their inner lives are a closed book to us. So that's where fiction is so incredibly powerful. If you're talking about Tudor women, nobody knows why Elizabeth I did things. We don't have any diary from her saying, woke up this morning and really thought I'd take on the Spanish. That just doesn't happen. But as a novelist, I can look at what she does during the day, I can look at her consistent principles and I can say, this is a woman who feels this very strongly and very passionately, who's prepared to give up, for instance, the love of her life in order to be secure on the throne. That tells you a huge amount about her character. But if you did it as a historian, and lots of historians do do it, it's not proper history, it's fiction. So lots of historians write fiction, just as I, as a historical novelist, often write absolutely straight history.

A (17:15)

Have you ever started going down a rabbit hole and thought, oh, this story is just not worth telling

B (17:23)

all the time? I mean, it's more exciting than that to me. I often start with one character and myself led off to another one and go like, not, not. This story is not worth telling. But I'm either going to put the first story to one side and concentrate on the rabbit hole I've disappeared down, or I'm going to say, that's saved. And coming back to that, there'll be another novel, there'll be time for that another time. It happened to me literally last week when I was writing about one quite well known Tudor woman, woman at the Tudor court, at the court of Catherine Parr. And I discovered that her sister in law not only leaves her husband at a time where people think that divorce is marriage is insoluble, but she conspires with her lover to murder him and she goes to a criminal trial for murdering him. And I just went, I've never heard of this woman before. Nobody I know has ever mentioned this woman to me. I'm going to have to save her up and look at her later. Foreign.

A (18:28)

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B (23:59)

Yes, sometimes I do.

A (24:02)

And so how are you doing that? Because there's. I mean, you said there's a digital footprint, right? But there's not a ton of physical evidence.

B (24:14)

Well, sometimes it's just. Again, reading through the record. So the one that was most exciting to me was I wrote a novel about Queen Elizabeth I's lover, Robert Dudley, and his wife died suddenly at home. And what killed Amy Dudley has absorbed historians for years and years and years. And a lot of doctors have got involved in it as well and produce different theories. And the theory that was most prevalent when I was writing was a doctor who had written in the 1950s and said he thought that she had probably cancer, which had thinned her bones. So when she stepped off a shallow step in her house, she misstepped and her neck broke and she died. And I just thought that was so unlikely, so improbable, given that her husband was desperately in love with Elizabeth I and looked very, very likely to marry Elizabeth I. Given that Elizabeth I's advisor, William Cecil, was absolutely opposed to this marriage. And given that William Cecil had an enormous spy ring, I went, is it really, really likely that Robert Dudley's wife, the one thing that makes him respectable, drops dead at her home, which means that he is then suspected of her murder, which means that Elizabeth breaks off relationships with him for months and months and months, and when he does come back to her, they can never be married because this terrible scandal is over him. And I went, like, I just don't believe it. I think William Cecil killed her. So I wrote a novel, because I'm a novelist, I'm allowed to do that. I wrote a novel in which I made it pretty clear that she was murdered by somebody and that it was to the advantage of William Cecil, who therefore prevented Elizabeth marrying Robert Dudley. And months after I'd published, historian Chris Skinner discovered the post mortem of Amy Dudley that nobody had seen before. And she didn't die of a broken neck stepping off a step. She had what they described as two great dints in her head, as if someone had hit her with a hammer and she was murdered.

A (26:24)

You know, I know you. You are known and you call yourself a feminist historian, but as I'm listening to you share this story, I'm thinking you're like a secret feminist superhero. You're rewriting what really should have been in the history books that was missing for all these years. It's so fascinating.

B (26:42)

Well, that's what I tried to do. I published a year before last a book called normal women. 900 years of making history and that goes from 1066 up to pretty well the present day, in which I'm trying to restore women to the historical record and tracing how women make progress in these centuries and how they get pushed back. And that. I mean, that feels to me like my life's work. That feels to me like the most important thing I've ever done. I love the novels. The novels are, of course, what I mostly do. But to write a genuine history of England without any fiction in it which restores women to the record is the most important thing I've ever done, I think.

A (27:24)

What do you see as your role in the literary world?

B (27:28)

I mean, as you say, I'm in my seventh decade. I'm becoming a senior figure. I am certainly a role model to some writers, and I am certainly an exemplar to some publishers who say rather irritatingly, if you like Philippa Gregory, you'll love this on someone else's book. And I go like, well, yes, but, you know, I'm not quite finished yet. You could go on loving me. I don't know. Kind of help me with the question. What do you mean by that? What do you expect me to be?

A (28:03)

I don't have any expectations. I asked the question because as I'm listening to you speak, I'm seeing what a rarity you are. You really carved your own lane. And I can imagine early on in your career, like now, because Philippa Gregory is so successful, everyone wants a Philippa novel. But early on, I can imagine that was not easy to convince publishers. There really was no genre for what you were doing.

B (28:33)

No, bizarrely, I was extremely lucky in that you're right. There is now a Philippa Gregory brand. And you know what you're getting. When I started, I actually just occurred in the literary world at a time that publishers were really, really getting anxious about the death of the historical novel. There's a cohort of women who were writing post Second World War historical fiction, which was very solidly researched historical fiction, but which had the manners and the ethics and the beliefs of women of the 1950s. Because, of course, you write out of your own consciousness, you write historical fiction, but you're not really an 18th century woman or a 17th century woman. You're really the time you are. And all of those people who had been real fans of this sort of writing had either died off or had stopped buying them or stopped reading them, because there's a certain sameness about them. There's a certain conventionality about them. And they are very, very much saying, here's the king, here's the queen. She's the most beautiful woman in the world. He's really chivalrous. They were very deferential to their characters. And so publishers were going like, how can we possibly revive historical fiction? Because it's become very, very dull and old fashioned and conventional. And as it happened, this is the 80s. And I sent in my first novel I had ever written, which is unheard of. It was called Wideacre. It was set in 18th century England and it drew on everything that I had learned from seven years at university, three years during my BA, four years doing my PhD in which I had had the immense privilege of studying English, Marxism, feminism, radical thinking about history. And so there was nothing deferential in it at all. It was quite sexy. It was very sexy. It was very pacey. And it concerned a woman who would not accept that her brother inherited her family estate and who is absolutely determined to get it off him. And one of the puffs on the back of the book, somebody wrote, knock Scarlett o' Hara into short cotton socks. So she was a thoroughly bad woman. She was a bad woman. And there was no suggestion in my mind that I ought to write about a good woman. You know, she was ambitious, determined, greedy, sexually active, very, very wilful woman whose ambition led her to crime. She ended up murdering people. So it was very, very, very new and literally the publishers fell on it. I was just very lucky. So it was my first novel and it went to auction and it was bought in the UK by Penguin Books and in the States by HarperCollins. Wow.

A (31:33)

And your mention of a book Bad Woman, I think is so important to your work. It makes me think about your recent book, the Boleyn Traitor, because it explores the life of Jane Boleyn, who's Anne Boleyn's sister in law. And Jane is a very complicated character to be following for an entire book. She is not really. I do not know if I would call her a heroine. What inspires you to write these women who are not likable or good?

B (32:04)

Because I don't believe women who are likable or good, to be honest with you. I mean, I myself lead a life of blameless purity. Of course, let's establish that.

A (32:14)

Me too.

B (32:15)

Yes. Okay, so we'll establish that. But I do think if you look at women who are generally described as good women, I think you often see women who are repressed or ground down or performing a role, that they might be better off doing something else. And certainly in the historical context, you see the emergence of the idea of a good woman, we're not born with that. Society doesn't evolve with that. In 1066, nobody talks about good women. That comes out of the huge Puritan pressure in the 17th century, when the parliamentarians take control, and you have this idea that the home is supposed to be particularly pure and that women, as the keepers of the home, have to be particularly pure. And it runs right the way through the 18th century, through the Enlightenment, through the Romantic movement, to say that women are actually naturally pure and naturally sexually repressed and naturally the guardians of all that is good, and that men go out into the outside world and behave as they want sexually and make money and struggle with the outside world, and they must come home to somewhere that is secure and reassuring and pure, and that that is how the world is. And it's not how the world is, it's how it happens to be for an incredibly brief period of time. And it reaches its peak at about 1850, and it deteriorates after that because it's unlivable. But what we're left with is because all of us, when we think of the history, anyone who hasn't studied it, mostly thinks of the Victorians. We mostly think of about 1850. So we think that all historical women are either good women or they're bad women, like Scarlett o'. Hara. And in fact, of course, historical women, just like modern women today, are a mixture of abilities and desires and hopes and fears and capacities and the ability to sin as well.

A (34:21)

Do you find these bad women inspiring?

B (34:25)

Yes, when they are successful.

A (34:29)

What does that mean?

B (34:30)

I mean, I think personal freedom, especially for women, is a revolutionary choice, and I think every woman should make it her priority.

A (34:39)

That gave me chills when you said that. What in you is bubbling that you're writing these women?

B (34:45)

I think all my life, I would say, I have been conscious that individual freedom is one of the very few undiluted goods that you can hope for. I was raised by a widow. My mother lost a very beloved husband when she was very young. And so I was raised in a house of women. I had my mother and I had my older sister. And so I never had a man tell me what to do until I went to a newsroom. And you know how brutally instructed you are at that point. So the first time a man ever raised his voice to me, I was absolutely amazed. Nobody had ever. No man had ever raised his voice to me before. It was my news editor. He said, gregor, if you do that again, I'll push you out the window. Which in Those days was banter. In these days, now you're putting in a formal complaint. So, yes, the concept of personal freedom has become clearer and clearer to me, especially in a world where I thought that the major work of women's liberation had been done by women before me in the 60s. And as we discover today, there is still so much oppression and mistreatment of women. You know, I am appalled, like everybody is appalled, but I am extra appalled because I thought we had gone some way to improve. And actually I think we are as bad as the Victorians in terms of our double standards.

A (36:23)

Really?

B (36:24)

Yeah. I mean, in the Victorian period there's a famous experiment by a Victorian journalist who bought a girl a virgin 12 year old virgin for 10 shillings and then wrote about it and said there is sexual slavery and trafficking on the streets of London. And now we know there's sexual slavery and trafficking in every major city in the Western world. And I thought we had resolved that with the valuing of women and with the movement for women's rights and women's liberation turns out not.

A (37:02)

Do you feel so if the. If one of the major through lines is personal liberty, personal freedom, did you set out years ago trying to solve for that or asking yourself about that, or did that come through years of reading and writing?

B (37:22)

I think it's always been a theme for me because I think, as I was saying, if you're a 1950s woman, you write from the conventions of your time. You can't think yourself outside your time. You can, but it takes years and years and years. In the old days we used to talk about raising consciousness. You have to raise your own consciousness. So I think naturally, if you're a 1950s writer, you are naturally deferential. I started writing in the 1980s, writing fiction in the 1980s, and by which time a lot of that deference had disappeared and a lot of revolutionary and modern thinking was completely fashionable. That was how the young people thought, you know, this is post Rolling Stones. I mean, there's been a big movement of, in a sense, ideas of individual freedom becoming widespread as part of the climate that I grew up in. And therefore, of course, when I was writing about my historical characters, most all of whom are living their lives before the real crackdown on women's freedom of the 19th century. So naturally I was really akin to them because I happened to be post 19th century and they were pre 19th century. But we both had this idea that your individual consciousness and your individual abilities should be a matter of your own determining.

A (38:48)

You can't think your Way out of your own time is such a powerful statement.

B (38:53)

And whenever you read a bad historical novel, you see how true that is. Because people don't. They. They literally come at it and you go like, this is not a Tudor woman. This is a 21st century woman. But she's got a long dress on, you know, like, that's the worst thing.

A (39:09)

Oh, that is so interesting. You're right, because you can't place it, but you feel like, I just don't believe this character. I don't believe this. Is there anything you do? I mean, I know that now you are just. You're so entrenched in these times, but is there anything that you do specifically to put yourself in the headspace of an entirely different era?

B (39:31)

I think, as you say, having worked in it so often, you know, like, I know the layout of Henry VIII's palaces. I know them nearly as well as he did, you know, wow. Of course, because I've written about them for so very, very long. So I can tell you if you go in the front door at Hampton Court, what you see in front of you. It's an enormous portrait of Henry viii, by the way.

A (39:54)

Of course it is.

B (39:55)

Which he put up himself to overawe the visitor. So there's. There's decades of research which mean that I am very, very comfortable, but I am still very, very careful with my language. You don't realize until you start trying to write believable, say, 16th century dialogue, how much your own thinking and how much your own metaphors are modern. So nobody's touch is electric, of course, because they haven't got electricity yet. There's nothing about the blood rushing through your heart except how you feel it. Because they haven't discovered the circulation of the heart yet.

A (40:41)

Oh, my God, Philippa, that is so difficult.

B (40:45)

Yes, it's so interesting, isn't it? And touches magnetic. Because we haven't discovered magnets yet.

A (40:52)

We don't have that word.

B (40:54)

Yeah, yeah.

A (40:56)

Can you name a few more? I'm sorry to nerd out, but I just think this is so cool.

B (41:00)

I mean, you can't be sure about any metaphors for disease. So you don't have any suggestion that germ spread. There's no germ theory. So there's no thing like, you know, she caught his feelings like a fever. Obviously, you don't have any transport mechanisms. Like, nobody goes as fast as a jet plane or anything like that, but. So the fastest thing that anybody knows would be a galloping horse.

A (41:28)

I know you can see me smiling. Everybody listening. Can't see me grinning from ear to ear. But I find this so fascinating. Do you ever catch yourself or are you so versed?

B (41:39)

Yes, of course, of course. Because, you know, you tend to. You think, I read a really bad book the other day when it said Catherine Howard looked out the window and thought her thoughts. You go like, well, very good. So she should. But she breathed in the world. Yes, she did, absolutely. She thought who she would think. And then she thought, I'll think my thoughts. The thing is, of course, you are trapped in your own consciousness as well. So not only are you free in your own consciousness, but you're trapped in it. You're in your own time. You are a creature of your time. And the trick of one of the many tricks of writing historical fiction is to see what you can leave behind when you try and go into another world.

A (42:24)

I think your work makes people ask themselves questions and so you are leaving a trail for people to think of themselves differently.

B (42:35)

I hope so. Definitely. My intention is that they think of historical women differently, that they don't take the conventional view of them, that they examine what they know about them. And people have been very upset in the past if they think I'm not kind about someone that they like very much. And it's not that I ever think badly of anybody actually. I think everybody is generally doing the best they can in a difficult world. Someone like Anne Boleyn has a very difficult world. She has an impossible world to negotiate. And partly that's because her ambitions are entirely new in that world. She is a self made woman and that's a thrilling thing to record. But you also have to record the downsides of it. You have to be honest about what she sacrifices in herself to bring that gritty determination out and to be that remorseless in terms of what it's going to cost her. I mean, I think I would call her a heroine. I think she's terrific. But it doesn't mean to say that I love everything she does

A (43:46)

and that's to me what makes her real. Because we don't love every decision. I don't love every decision I've made.

B (43:55)

That's why I talk about bad women. When I talk about bad women, I always do air quotes. I cannot imagine a character who is undiluted bad. You know, it's just not part of a human condition. We are all mixtures and we all take half baked decisions and change our minds and revert back to them and want to be different and reform and fail. We're all doing that all the time. That's the human condition. There's no extreme of behavior that I have ever seen in any historical character. Henry VIII goes a long way to being, in my view, a wicked man. But that's at the end of his life when he's a young boy. He's absolutely adorable and so full of ambition, so full of hope, and so idealistic and so clever and so literally very, very charming. And that's one of the things about history, is it makes you really be aware of the passing of the years that young Henry is not the same person as old Henry. And different standards apply both to him. And you should apply different standards. As his biographer.

A (45:03)

I think it's very hard for humans to recognize what you just said. I find it often when people pass away that whether they are public figures or not, we paint them with such a broad stroke. I'll give you an example. My grandfather passed away. And the way my grandmother talks about him is he was the most incredible husband. And just all these beautiful words. And he was a wonderful person. And they fought so much, and he did some unkind things. And he was a complicated person, just like everybody else. Is one of my favorite definitions of wisdom is holding two opposite truths at one time.

B (45:46)

Yes, absolutely.

A (45:47)

And it's one of the things you do so well.

B (45:51)

Thank you. I mean, it's a very, very difficult thing to do. But I think when you're a novelist, what you're interested in most, the change of personality and development and growth. And when I was studying novels years and years and years ago as a PhD student, it seemed to me that when the novel was invented, when it became really the novel and stopped being just fairy tale stories, what characterized it was the fact that the reader met a character at a point of view, at what you'd now call an inciting incident, at a point of change or challenge, or something's about to happen, and then you follow them through it. And it's not just the things that happen. It's not just the events and the adventures, but it's how they change the personality. So at the end of it, the person is not just happy. They have not just found the person they love. They're not just going to marry and be rich. They have grown and they've developed and they have changed. And so whether you're a biographer, in which you're tracing someone from childhood to maturity, or whether you're a novelist, where you're tracing development, it's the same task. And that's why it seems to me that the novel is a wonderful way to write a biography because it requires you to step into the. In a private world which history is

A (47:22)

really forbidden from novel is a wonderful way to write a biography. I've never thought about it that way.

B (47:29)

Oh, I think about it that way all the time, of course, but that's because that's what I'm doing. I mean, I think it's a more interesting way to write a biography than straight biography. If you want to know about the real person inside or at any rate a version of them. I never say this is the real person. I say this is my person, this is my version of them.

A (47:54)

What does an average day look like for you when you are writing? I've heard you're very disciplined.

B (48:01)

I don't feel very disciplined. I feel extremely self indulgent. My average day these days is I wake up and I let my dog out and then she's allowed to come in and sit on my bed while I write and have a cup of tea. And I write in bed for a couple of hours before I even get up. Then I get up and I walk. Same beloved dog mostly. This is my dog's average day, really. And then I come into my study and I write for another couple of hours. And then I take a break at lunchtime and I do anything that I have to do around my house garden, which is very little housework. And then I work for a couple of hours in the afternoon. But that might be just reading. There's a limit, I believe. Well, I know for me there's a limit to how much creative writing I can do in a day without becoming, well, exhausted. But also, if I start dreaming about the characters or I start dreaming that I am one of the characters, then I know I've been working too hard, and I genuinely believe that my consciousness isn't sure where we are. So if I've spent six hours of the day in the Tudor court, then I think at nighttime when I come to dream, my brain is going like, we spent all day in the Tudor court. We'll dream about the Tudor court. And I go, that's not good, that's not good. My brain needs to know that I'm actually living in the modern world, in the real world, in my real house.

A (49:40)

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Learn more@wells fargo.com autographjourney terms apply okay, you've got a lot going on and choosing the right probiotic might not be at the top of your to do list. I get it, so let's make things simple. Garden of Life is the number one women's probiotic brand for a reason. It's specifically designed for women to support the immune system, vaginal health, and overall women's health. You can feel good knowing that this is the brand so many women trust for their gut health. Garden of Life transforms 16 diverse probiotic strains and 50 billion CFU to support digestive health and a flourishing gut flora. And if you're worried whether Garden of Life Women's once daily probiotic is the real deal, don't okay. They are certified non GMO and doctor formulated for women's unique needs. To put it simply, this is an easy way to prioritize your gut health. Garden of Life Formulas for Feeling Alive Available on Amazon Disclaimer Number 1 based on Circana 52 week multi outlet unit sales ending 113025 these statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease. Recently I went on a trip to Panama with my dad and we go on a trip every single year together. This year I had so much fun. We drank Panamanian coffee every morning. He took me on a little speedboat to the jungle and I got to see titi monkeys. We ate absolutely delicious food. I dragged him to all the best restaurants and we always pick a book to read together set in the city we're visiting. So we picked a Panamanian thriller and it was twisty. Trips like that are truly unforgettable. And what makes it even better is staying at a place on Airbnb. Now if you're planning any upcoming trips, you could be hosting your home on Airbnb. And with Airbnb Co Host Network, you could hire a local co host to handle everything okay, like creating your listing, managing reservations, guest communication, on site support, and even styling your space. So while you're making your own memories, your home can be helping another family make theirs and earning you extra cash. Find a co host@airbnb.com host I'm partnering with Simple Mills and I have now found a new Go to Snack. When I'm reading Simple Mills Almond Flour Crackers, I thought I'd review them book style because these crackers deserve it. Let's start with the premise. A snack that doesn't leave you feeling weighed down. Made with almond flour, sunflower seeds and flaxseeds. Nutrient dense ingredients your body can use with protein, vitamins and fiber, not just empty carbs. That's a solid foundation and just like a good premise needs great writing. Simple Mills Almond Flour Crackers also taste amazing. Classic flavors like fine ground sea salt, a crunchy texture and a light finish that leaves you feeling uplifted and energized. It's like a taste of sunshine in every bite. For a change in genre, try Pop' Ems Cheesy, Airy and Poppable crackers with an unexpected twist. They're packed with veggies. Here's my verdict. Simple Mills crackers are a snack staple you'll always want on your shelf. Okay, I've hit my metaphor quota for the year, but these crackers are worth it. Find Simple Mills at your grocery store. Apple Books is the best place to read, listen to, or discover the books you love without a subscription right on your iPhone. And now there's a very exciting heads up for listeners. Apple Books is the official audiobook and ebook home for Reese's Book Club, so it's easier than ever to explore each monthly book pick, plus author curated collections and more all in one place. Open the Apple Books app to explore a world of books and audiobooks. You can set goals and track your reading progress. Get great recommendations for your next read, or listen and enjoy it all on the go, wherever you are. You can even share your books with up to five family members at no cost. Again, no subscription required. Visit Apple Co reeseapplebooks to find out more. That's Apple co reeseapplebooks and read or listen to Reese's current Pick and browse past selections today on Apple Books. You know, it's funny to hear you speak about your day and how hard you work, because one thing I love about your story is that you've described yourself as kind of a rebel at school, I was reading that you got an E in your history, A level. So for Americans, it's based. An A level is like an AP course.

B (55:13)

It was the closest thing you can get to it and scrape through. Yeah. I wouldn't have gone to university on my grades that I came out of school with. I got into university as a professional because I got into journalism college, trained as a journalist, worked as a journalist and then got to university. They didn't teach history at my school, in my school days in a way that anybody would have any genuine interest in. It's military history, it's classical history, it's Roman history, it's mostly set in Europe. It could not have been further away from the 15 year old girl I was growing up in Bristol. It couldn't have been more remote. And one of the things that my life's work has been is to say to people, this history is your history. This is your mother's mother's. Mother's. Mother's, mother's. The way we think now is a result of the fact that we are at this stage in our history and therefore we are made by our history. And when we understand how much, for instance, our belief in the innate purity and caring and loving nature of women comes from the lectures that were given to women in the 17th century, then you go, like, I now know why I don't feel like I fit this mould. It's not that I'm wrong, it's that the image is that of a 17th century Puritan. Of course I don't fit it.

A (56:38)

But I've heard you say that you're not necessarily giving women back their voices. Oh, I am curious who you're writing

B (56:47)

for instead, because I think women have their voices. They have their voices loud and clear and all around the world they're speaking up. And that's, you know, it's not in my gift, it's not in anybody's gift. Your voice is your own gift, you know, you use it yourself. Yeah. I mean, I think what I am genuinely doing is I am giving women back their stories. And, you know, there's that famous thing that was at my school, they used to say, now, let us praise famous men and our fathers that begat us. And it's not a bad thing to say, let us praise famous women and our mothers that begat us. Because I am my mother's daughter, just as every woman in the world is. And because we have our descent of goods through the patrilineal line does not mean that Our mother's contribution is not hugely significant. Absolutely.

A (57:48)

What do you think the biggest lie history has told us about women?

B (57:52)

I think the biggest lie is that you're not in history and it's clearly not true, because if you look at the published histories, we are there. Not described fairly or accurately at all, but we are there. And the other thing is that that led to women onto thinking that they do not do historical acts or that their great, great, great great grandmothers did not do historical acts. In fact, women are in history and they do enormously interesting historical, historically recorded things in every century. But by having this kind of zoomed out worldview where you only see generals and politicians and kings, we then get a history, a very lazy history, which says women don't do historical acts, they just stay home and look after the babies.

A (58:42)

Presumably you've had such a great number of successes. I am curious what other stories you're feeling drawn to. What is next for you?

B (58:52)

Next on the list? I'm going to write a novel about Catherine Willoughby, who was the ward of Charles Brandon. Charles Brandon was Henry VIII's best friend ever and married Princess Mary, Henry VIII's sister. So she's right in that royal court area. And Charles Brandon marries her when she's 12. So it's a very, very, very big discrepancy of age. He's nearly 50. Wow. I'm interested in writing that and trying to withhold my modern judgment about that and trying to write it with a medieval view, but at the same time knowing that she thought that a very great discrepancy between a husband and wife and early marriage was bad for young women. So the management of my own feelings, that that's tantamount to abuse and Catherine Willoughby's absolute acceptance of it, but her belief that it isn't good for a young girl, I think that's a very. That's a very delicate balance. And done well. I think it will be quite insightful. So I'm working on her. I'm working on a play about Jacquetta Duchess Bedford, who is the heroine of my novel, lady of the Rivers. And I'm doing something which is absolutely a secret that I can't tell you about. But, like, I just want you to know I've got a secret, massive secret. So I'm not going to tell you about that. And what else, Philippa?

A (60:29)

That's like when people on Instagram say something's coming, but they don't tell us what's coming.

B (60:35)

I know. I have to. You have to invite me back. Oh, yes, I'll come back.

A (60:39)

You have. You have an open chair on this podcast.

B (60:43)

Thank you. All right. I'll come back when I'm ready to share my secret. It's like, it's pretty exciting to get to my stage of my career and still have a secret. You know, usually everybody knows everything about you.

A (60:55)

Yes. And I can see your face lit up when you shared it with me. So there's something brewing. And I do think that tension that you mentioned with Catherine Willoughby is fascinating. I immediately personalized it and thought of my own life in terms of what I accept, but also would not recommend for somebody else's life. I think we all have pieces of that.

B (61:17)

Yes. And I think also it's very timely, obviously, that we're very concerned about protecting the innocence of children, but that in itself is a historical development, that in the medieval world, there was no concept of the innocence of children that had to be protected at all. To think and work in that, as a feminist and very sensitively as a humanist, as someone who cares about people's feelings, I think that's going to be difficult to do, but very interesting to do as well.

A (61:49)

Philippa, every week I ask our guests what they've bookmarked, and it can be a fun fact or a quote or something you've saved on your Instagram or texted your best friend about. What has Philippa Gregory bookmarked this week?

B (62:04)

I was reading a book in order to recommend it. It's a new book, it's not published yet by Nandini Das. And it's called this Little A New History of Tudor and Stuart England. And actually it's about Tudor and Stuart migration into England. And it's very beautifully written. And the thing that really caught my eye, and I didn't bookmark it because I'm a hard copy reader, so I dog eared it, which people hate you doing. And I scribbled in the margin, and I can do that because it's my book and I don't care. And she's talking about immigrants. She says they appear in the archives not just as petitioners or defendants, but as neighbors, lenders, translators, wives and widows, friends and lovers. Their presence slowly became part of the civic and political life of the nation. Even those who vanished from the record left behind traces in the skills, tradition, and habits that have endured. They may be hard to follow, but we can see their presence woven through the fabric of the world. They helped to make every scrap of art and poetry from this time the way people thought about the world, the Fashions they wore, the food they ate, flowers they grew in their gardens. All of it pulses with the restless energy of that in between space.

A (63:27)

I feel like I just was at a front row at a Jon Bon Jovi concert. Like, I can't believe I got read to you read. I can't believe I sat through a live reading from you that was so beautiful. And I also deeply understand why that caught your eye. So much of that is woven into your work.

B (63:46)

Absolutely.

A (63:47)

Yeah.

B (63:48)

And the world we live in today. Yes.

A (63:52)

Okay, so before you come back and tell us your secret, hopefully in a few months, maybe a year, we'll see. You're nodding. How long do you think?

B (64:01)

I think six months, I should be able to tell you my secret.

A (64:04)

Okay, so in six months, you'll be back, but before you leave us, I want to do something called speed read with you, which is where we put 60 seconds on the clock and see how many rapid fire literary questions you can get through. Are you ready? Okay.

B (64:18)

I'm ready.

A (64:19)

Okay. What is one literary trope you would ban forever?

B (64:23)

Somebody starting a novel by saying, the baby's cry echoed through the cold corridors of the castle.

A (64:31)

And one that you'll defend with your life.

B (64:33)

Starting in the middle of a conversation.

A (64:35)

What's a book that you wish you had written? Will fall a favorite book to recommend?

B (64:40)

A history play by Rodney Bolt.

A (64:42)

What book do you wish you could read again for the first time?

B (64:46)

Rudyard Kipling.

A (64:48)

What is the first book that you stayed up all night to finish?

B (64:51)

Little Gray Rabbit.

A (64:53)

What's a book that shaped the way you see the world?

B (64:56)

Germaine Greer, the female eunuch who would

A (65:00)

narrate your memoir audiobook.

B (65:02)

Oh, Meryl Streep, please.

A (65:05)

The best book that you have never read.

B (65:08)

I won't say I've never read books, but the book that I couldn't finish was Ulysses. James Joyce.

A (65:14)

And my last one is the book you gift most often.

B (65:18)

Nigel Balkan, My own executioner.

A (65:22)

Philippa, I have savored every single second with you. And I love learning from you. I love reading your work. I'm so grateful that it exists. And I really think that you have had such an impact on our collective memory. So thank you for all of the hours of unseen research and difficulty that goes into each novel. I speak on behalf of so many people when I say we are so grateful for you.

B (65:52)

Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. Thank you.

A (65:58)

Okay, friends, before we wrap today's episode, I'm bringing back our monthly comfort segment from Cotton. It's called the Book Notes. As we ease into March and the start of spring, longer days, a little more light, maybe even that first warm breeze through an open window. It feels like the perfect time to talk about the small rituals that make reading feel just right. Cotton is at the heart of so many of these everyday comforts. Whether it's your favorite breathable tea layered under a sweater at the the airport, the soft scarf you travel with, or the crisp button down that somehow makes you feel put together even after a long flight. Cotton grounds us in comfort wherever we are, which makes it the perfect companion for a good book. Let's hear from another bookmark listener sharing their ideal reading setup.

B (66:51)

Hi Danielle hi Bookmarked this is Malia from Portland, Oregon, and my ideal reading

A (66:59)

setup is one that I think many people don't enjoy or wouldn't call their favorite, which is reading on a plane.

B (67:07)

I love getting into a book while I'm on a flight because I feel

A (67:12)

like I have no distractions besides my fellow travelers, and I can really lock in. And as a fast reader, I have often finished an entire book on a

B (67:22)

plane, so that's kind of why I love reading on the plane.

A (67:27)

Malia, I love this so much. There's something kind of magical about being suspended between places. Nowhere to be, no laundry to switch over, no emails to answer. Just you, your seat and a story. That feeling of buckling in, tucking your bag under the seat, wrapping up in its soft cotton layer and realizing you have a few uninterrupted hours to just read. Oh, that's a gift. And finishing the entire book before landing. Honestly, elite energy, I aspire to that level of focus. I think sometimes our perfect reading ritual isn't the Picturesque 1. Sometimes it's the one that simply works. A breathable cotton tee, a cozy sweatshirt, maybe a cotton eye mask once the cabin lights dim. Comfort that travels with you wherever you're headed this spring. So, friends, keep your ideal reading setups coming. Are you reading in a sunny park now that the weather's warming up on your porch? In a cotton sweater on a plane at 30,000ft like Malia, take me right into your perfect reading ritual. Leave me a voicemail at 501-291-3379 or email a voice memo to bookmark@reese's book club.com thanks to Cotton for bringing this segment to life and for reminding us that comfort and style can go hand in hand whether you're at home or in seat 14A. Don't forget to check the tag for Cotton. And if you want to learn more, head to thefabricofarlives.com. If you want a little bit more from us, come hang with us on socials. We're at Reese's Book Club on Instagram serving up books, vibes and behind the scenes magic. And I'm Danielle Robay. R O B A Y Come say hi and DM me. And if you want to go 90s on us, you can call us. Okay, so our phone line is open, so call us now at 501-291-3379. That's 501-291-3379. Share your literary hot takes your book recommendations.

B (69:25)

Ooh.

A (69:25)

Please share those and questions about the monthly pick or just let us know what you think of about the episode you just heard. And who knows, you might just hear yourself in our next episode. So don't be shy, give us a ring. And of course, make sure to follow Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your shows. Until then, see you in the next chapter. Bookmarked is a production of Hello Sunshine and iHeart podcasts. It's executive produced by Reese Witherspoon and me, Danielle Robay. Production is by Acast Creative Studios. Our producers are Maddy Foley, Brittany Martinez and Sarah Schleed. Our production assistant is Avery Loftus. Jenny Kaplan and Emily Rutter are the executive producers for Acast Creative Studios. Maureen Polo and Reese Witherspoon are the executive producers for hello Sunshine. Olga Kaminwa, Sarah Kernerman, Kristin Perla and Ashley Rapoport are associate producers for Reese's Book Club. Ali Perry and Lauren Hanson are the executive producers for iHeart podcasts. The Autograph Journey credit card from Wells Fargo is built for travel. You can earn rewards wherever you book, your favorite hotel site your go to airline and more. You get five times points with hotels, four times with airlines, three times on restaurants and other travel, and one point on other purchases. Whether it's a big vacation or a quick getaway, from booking your stay to that first meal when you arrive, you're turning your trips into rewards with the Autograph Journey card from Wells Fargo. Learn more at Wells Fargo.com autographjourney Terms apply. Today's episode is brought to you by Cotton. We spend a lot of time with stories, hours curled up with dynamic plots and characters who feel like friends. What if the story isn't just in your hands but also in the world around you, in the fabric that's holding you close? Cotton is that timeless companion. Soft sheets for a lazy weekend morning with a book. Breezy dresses for afternoons spent reading in the backyard. It's the fabric that can be tossed in the wash without fuss. It's about ease, comfort and caring for yourself and the planet. Just like books we cherish, cotton weaves meaning into everyday moments. Next time you settle in for a chapter, slip into something cotton. Not just to read the story, but to feel it. Cotton the fabric of our lives. Learn more@thefabricofourlives.com all the talk of probiotics can get confusing. Which to take? Why? What does it do? Let's make it easy. Garden of Life's Doctor Formulated Once Daily Women's Probiotic is the number one women's probiotic. Why should you take it? Well, Garden of Life transforms a range of probiotic strains to support digestive, immune and vaginal health. Plus, this doctor formulated non GMO formula is designed specifically for women. Simply put, this is an easy way to support your gut health. Garden of Formulas for Feeling Alive Available on Amazon Disclaimer Number 1 based on Circana 52 week multi outlet unit sales ending 113025 these statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease. I'm partnering with Simple Mills and I have now found a new go to reading snack. Simple Mills Almond Flour Crackers Think of this as a quick book style review because these crackers deserve it. The premise? A snack that feels light, not heavy. Made with almond flour, sunflower seeds and flaxseeds. Nutrient dense ingredients your body can use, not empty carbs and the taste crunchy classic flavors that leave you feeling energized. For a good plot twist, try Pop EMS Cheesy airy, poppable crackers packed with veggies. Final Verdict these are a shelf staple. Find simple meals at your grocery store. Apple Books is the best way to read or listen to the books you love. Without a subscription right on your iPhone and a heads up for listeners. Apple Books is the official audiobook and ebook home for Reese's Book Club so you can discover every exciting pick plus author curated collections and more all in one place. Open the Apple Books app to explore a world of books and audiobooks. You can set and track your reading goals and get great recommendations for your next read or listen again. No subscription required. Visit Apple Co Reese that's R E E S E Applebooks to find out more. This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.