How Hamnet Made the Whole Word Cry with Paul Mescal, Maggie O'Farrell, and Chloé Zhao

Summary

Podcast Summary: Bookmarked by Reese’s Book Club

Episode: How Hamnet Made the Whole World Cry

Guests: Maggie O’Farrell (author), Chloé Zhao (director), Paul Mescal (actor)
Host: Danielle Robay
Air Date: January 20, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode brings together Maggie O’Farrell (author of Hamnet), Chloé Zhao (director and co-writer of the acclaimed film adaptation), and Paul Mescal (who plays Shakespeare in the film). Fresh from the Hamnet movie’s Best Picture win at the Golden Globes, the conversation navigates the journey of Hamnet from page to screen—exploring creativity, spirituality, synchronicity, grief, and bravery in storytelling. The group also delves into artistic process, adaptation, actor-director dynamics, and even playfully envisions “Shakespeare in outer space.”

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Origins: From Novel to Phenomenon

[05:08] Maggie O’Farrell on Film Rights and Early Hopes

• The adaptation began quietly: "It had been a kind of slow burn… But I do remember when Liza [Marshall] called me and said, Chloé Zhao is interested. And I just felt this kind of quickening in my heartbeat because… I knew she was never going to make a kind of conventional, costumey costume drama."
• O’Farrell wanted the film to center on Hamnet’s family instead of Shakespeare: "I wanted this one where the boy and his sisters and the mother were going to be front and center."
  [06:44] Chloé Zhao’s Director Perspective
• Zhao was drawn to the embodiment and rawness of the story: “In my films, Maggie could see that I’m all about the body… I’m working to get myself out of my head into my body. The book just archetypally serves as such an incredible container for that heart-mind connection…”

2. Synchronicity and Art Birthed in the Pandemic

[09:31] Chloé Zhao & Maggie O’Farrell
Both Hamnet (the novel) and Nomadland (Zhao’s previous film) debuted during the pandemic, giving their work unexpected resonance:

• O’Farrell: “The experience of the pandemic is casting long, long effects into everybody’s lives. It’s always going to be part of us, I think.”
• Mescal observes that both his rise (Normal People) and Zhao & O’Farrell’s works happened then, connecting their creative journeys.

3. Casting & Adaptation Serendipity

[11:25] Paul Mescal & Chloé Zhao on Hamlet, Shakespeare, and Chemistry

• Mescal recounts how he nudged Zhao to read Hamnet, sensing they would work well together:

  “I was a huge fan of the book … I really want to work with Chloe. … I thought she was going to be doing Hamnet, but she didn't bring it up for like an hour… and then [she asked] ‘Have you ever thought about playing William Shakespeare?’”

• Zhao admits she hadn’t read the book before considering the project; once she did, she realized its emotional depth went well beyond the expected Shakespeare lens.

4. Portraying the Unnamed: Shakespeare as Character

[15:50] Paul Mescal on the Freedom of Playing an Unnamed Shakespeare

• “It’s very freeing because … one of those mythical figures that we actually know very little about factually … not naming him, I think, is a really clever thing that Maggie did. … The minute you name someone … it becomes a much more subjective experience of Will’s grief.”

5. On Grief, Artistry, and Vulnerability

[22:05 – 26:23] Mescal, O’Farrell & Zhao on Channeling Shakespeare, Grief, and Bravery

• Mescal is struck by how Shakespeare’s writing on grief predates his son’s death, revealing “…he’s got his finger on the pulse of humanity at large…”
• Mescal: “The thing that I learned specifically about why I admire him so much is not his words. It’s actually how much of himself as an artist he’s willing to share with an audience forever.”
• The group discusses the cost and courage of vulnerability in art, with Mescal reflecting:

  “You are making an intentional decision … to remove yourself from the other part of your life, which I think is a scary thing, but also a thing that makes artists… very brave people to me.” [27:23]

6. Dreamwork & Artistic Process

[27:37] Chloé Zhao on Dreamwork

• The film’s cast underwent dreamwork before filming to deepen their connection to the material and their characters.
• Zhao highlights the emotional and physical toll, mentioning:

  “There were moments where [Paul] was embodied what it’s like to be pulled in different directions… it was suffering, his body was going through something really excruciating. … That is to be or not to be.”

• Zhao felt the pressure to translate O’Farrell’s subtleties:

  “Reading the book gave me great anxieties… the subtleties and the depth that Maggie is writing … have to be able to capture these nuances, you know, and we really would push for that.” [32:39]

7. Collaboration in Screenwriting and Filmmaking

[37:00] Maggie O’Farrell on Screenwriting for Film

• O’Farrell, a first-time screenwriter, learned the value of economy and trust:

  “…as a novelist, you’re a lone wolf… on set, you realize that actually you are trusting that Paul and Jessie… will put all the nuance that you have in your description in the novel into the lines.”

• She likens screenplay writing to puzzle-solving and stresses the communal nature of filmmaking.

8. The Globe, Catharsis, and Cinema as Communion

[39:33] O’Farrell & Zhao on the Film’s Ending

• O’Farrell treasures the last 15 minutes, set at The Globe: “In the film, we did completely let Shakespeare's flag fly… I’ve always wanted to go back to the Globe for the first production of Hamlet. And now I have, because Chloe built it and Paul acted it.”
• Zhao describes the collaborative effort to realize the film’s cathartic finale, recalling:

  “…I had a very spiritual experience in that Globe theater. … When the entire cast and crew are opening their heart and grieving together… that physically showed me… what eternity is like. And that’s love.” [44:14]

9. Embodiment, Chemistry, and Performance

[46:21] Chemistry Between Paul Mescal and Jessie Buckley (Anya/Agnes)
Host notes, “‘We became attuned to each other as if we were married. And I haven’t experienced that before.’”

• Mescal: “It’s rooted in respect and collaboration… my relationship with Jessie is a very key relationship in my life generally now, inside and outside of the film… because of having her there and Chloe and the material that Maggie gave us, it allowed a relationship to… build that wasn’t necessarily just on the page.” [47:17]

10. Art That Changes Its Creators

[53:27–58:49] How Hamnet Changed the Panel

• O’Farrell: Being on set was “mind-blowing … you’d hear someone say a line, and I’d think, oh, God, I wrote that… It was wonderful to be a part of.”
• Zhao: “It’s very much changed my life… moments like that—when her first curiosity goes, why don’t they talk about this little boy?—that’s the point of contact… it just kind of feels like something much bigger is at work than us.”
• Mescal: “Discovery… not apologizing for being an artist… there’s a lot of sacrifice that’s gone into the last six, seven years… you can’t apologize for it anymore, which is a big learning for me. … For me, there’s a moment in the film, running through the woods… that, to me, felt like what creativity feels like—expression and bodies getting big and the feeling just coming up through you.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Maggie O’Farrell

  • “I wanted this one where the boy and his sisters and the mother were going to be front and center.” [05:40]
  • “As a novelist, you’re a lone wolf… on set, you realize… your job… is to be economic and to trust everybody else to put back in what we’d had to strip out.” [37:00]

• Chloé Zhao

  • “The book just archetypally serves as such an incredible container for that heart-mind connection… there is Agnes in all of us that has been cast away… I want to live like that, from my heart, not just from my mind.” [07:00–08:25]
  • “When the entire cast and crew are opening their heart and grieving together… that physically showed me in an embodied way what eternity is like. And that’s love.” [44:14]

• Paul Mescal

  • “It’s very freeing because… [Shakespeare is] one of those mythical figures that we actually know very little about factually… Not naming him is very intentional… it tells you what the focus is.” [16:00]
  • “You are making an intentional decision with yourself to remove yourself from the other part of your life… that makes artists very brave people.” [27:23]
  • “My relationship with Jessie is a very key relationship in my life generally now, inside and outside of the film.” [47:17]

• Chloé Zhao’s “Bookmark”

  • “It says something about grief being the placenta that will gave birth to you… the version of you had died because what you lost … so you do need to rebirth. Grief is that presenter that you need to hold you through the rebirthing process.” [59:00]

• Maggie O’Farrell’s “Bookmark”

  • “Mary Oliver… what do you plan to do with your one wild and precious life? … such a great question.” [59:50]

• Paul Mescal’s “Bookmark”

  • “Seamus Heaney’s ‘The Underground,’ … it’s one of my favorite poems.” [60:20]

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Fun Segment: Shakespeare in Outer Space

[61:10–62:59] 60-Second Adaptation: Macbeth

• Paul: “We’re adapting Macbeth.”
• Chloé: “Year 3000.”
• Maggie: “In space. … The king of space is not doing a great job. … Macbeth’s wife… on board and keen for him to do it.”
• Paul: “Like Han Solo-esque.”
• Chloé (ending): “Unsex me here. … Maybe if she stays alive, she will find strength… she doesn’t need to be unsexed to do something extraordinary.”

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On Making Audiences Cry

[63:08] Maggie O’Farrell

• “You have to be right there in the beating pulse of the book and you have to feel the grief… I did it in 15 minute bursts… took me a fortnight to write those two scenes and they were really hard and I was really upset.”

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [05:08] – Maggie on adaptation & vision for the film
• [06:44] – Chloé on embodiment and ‘yearning for Agnes’
• [09:31] – Pandemic synchronicity & creative arcs
• [11:25] – Paul & Chloé describe first casting discussions
• [15:50] – Paul on unnamed Shakespeare
• [22:05] – Paul on Shakespeare’s grief & artistry
• [27:37] – Chloé on dreamwork and acting choices
• [37:00] – Maggie on co-writing the screenplay
• [39:33] – On the film’s ending and The Globe Theatre
• [44:14] – Chloé’s spiritual experience during filming
• [47:17] – Paul on chemistry with Jessie Buckley
• [53:34] – Reflections: How Hamnet changed their lives
• [59:00] – Each guest shares their “bookmark” (favorite line, quote, or poem)
• [61:10] – "Shakespeare adaptation in space" improv
• [63:08] – Maggie on writing scenes that make people cry

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Tone and Style

The episode’s tone is intimate and reflective, often joyous and frequently emotional—balancing a reverence for art and storytelling with warmth, wit, and playful creativity (e.g., the closing “Macbeth in space” segment). All three guests speak candidly about vulnerability, connection, and the unseen labor that underpins both literary and cinematic achievements.

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Final Thoughts

This episode provides a rare glimpse into the intertwined lives and processes of artists working across different mediums, united by a story of loss and love that transcends centuries. Listeners leave with a richer appreciation of the creative risks behind Hamnet and a sense of the community and courage art requires—and, as Chloé Zhao says, “how eternity is love.”

Transcript

[Danielle Robay]

This is an I Heart podcast. Guaranteed human. This time of year always gets me dreaming of my next trip. I love imagining the places I could visit, the friends I could travel with, and the memories that we'd make along the way. Right now I'm picturing a girls trip. Okay, beach, sun, and books. It already sounds good, right? So if you're planning any trips over winter, you could be hosting your home on Airbnb. And now with the Co Host network, you could hire a local co host to handle everything like managing reservations, guest communication, and even styling your space. Find a co [e-mail] host Today's episode is brought to you by Cotton. We spend a lot of time with stories, hours curled up with dynamic plots and characters who feel like friends. What if the story isn't just in your hands, but also in the world around you? In the fabric that's holding you close? Cotton is that timeless companion. Soft sheets for a lazy weekend morning with a book. Breezy dresses for afternoons spent reading in the backyard. It's the fabric that can be tossed in the wash without fuss. It's about ease, comfort, and caring for yourself and the planet. Just like books we cherish, cotton weaves meaning into everyday moments. Next time you settle in for a chapter, slip into something.

[Interviewer (Reese's Book Club Host)]

Cotton.

[Danielle Robay]

Not just to read the story, but to feel it. Cotton the fabric of our lives. Learn [e-mail] this is Dr. Jesse Mills.

[Dr. Jesse Mills]

Host of the Mailroom podcast. Each January, men promise to get stronger, work harder, and fix what's broken. But what if the real work isn't physical at all? I sat down with psychologist Dr. Steve Poulter to unpack shame, anxiety, and the emotional pain men were never taught how to name.

[Dr. Steve Poulter]

Part of the way through the valley of Despair is realizing this has happened and you have to make a choice whether you're going to stay in it or move forward.

[Dr. Jesse Mills]

Our two part conversation is available now. Listen to the mailroom on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite shows.

[Danielle Robay]

Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club is presented by Apple Books. Hi, I'm Danielle Robay, and welcome to Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club. One of the things I love most about this show is that oftentimes we find that a story doesn't just live in one form. It travels, it evolves, it becomes something shared across mediums and voices and time. Today's conversation is one of those moments Hamnet began as a novel that became a phenomenon. It was Beloved by readers, by book clubs, and critics around the world. And now its film adaptation has just won best Picture at the Golden Globes, cementing its place not just as a story people love. I mean, even Jane Fonda called it a perfect movie. The premise is deceptively simple, right? A man and a woman fall in love, get married, have three children. One of their children, a son named Hamnet, dies when he's 11 years old. Grief rearranges the DNA of the family, and to cope, the father writes a play called Hamlet. So today, we're exploring the entire lineage of that story in one room, from the page to the set to the screen. And here's a little behind the scenes tea. Okay. I sat down with Maggie o', Farrell, the author of the original novel Hamnet, Chloe Zhao, the director and co writer of the film, and Paul Mescal, who brings the story to life on screen. And I talked to them right before they went to the Golden Globes, and eight hours later, they won best Picture at the Golden Globes. Chloe Zhao gets on stage, makes her speech, and quotes our interview on stage. That's how many gems all three of them dropped over this hour. Together, we talked about three S's, okay? Spirituality, storytelling, and synchronicity and what it means to be brave as an artist. Oh, and we also talked about Shakespeare in outer Space. But just listen and you'll get that. So if you're looking for a conversation with three creative powerhouses, I mean, who is it? You are in the right place. So let's turn the page with Maggie o', Farrell, Chloe Zhao, and Paul Mezcal.

[Interviewer (Reese's Book Club Host)]

Maggie, Chloe, Paul, welcome to the club.

[Maggie O'Farrell]

Thank you.

[Paul Mescal]

Thanks for having us.

[Interviewer (Reese's Book Club Host)]

Maggie, this book, Chloe, this movie, and Paul, this role. It's like that meme of the three spider men pointing guns at each other.

[Danielle Robay]

And it's just like talent, talent, talent.

[Interviewer (Reese's Book Club Host)]

It sounds like the pieces of Hamnet came together very serendipitously. There was a lot of moving pieces and then a little bit of magic. So Maggie Hammett as a novel was already out in the world, and it was an enormous hit. I remember when this book hit, and it's all end. Any reader could talk about. Maggie, where were you and what were your first thoughts when you heard the news?

[Maggie O'Farrell]

Well, it had been a kind of slow burn because Liza Marshall, the producer, bought the screen rights for the book. Right. Actually, about the time it came out, which is in 2020. And then there was a lot of other stuff that we were all thinking about in 2020. So it sort of Went underground for a while. But I do remember when Liza called me and said, chloe Zhao is interested. And I just felt this kind of quickening in my heartbeat because I knew that Chloe. I mean, obviously I didn't know Chloe, but I knew her via her work. And I knew she was never going to make a kind of conventional, costumey costume drama. The kind of thing where everybody wears a lot of mob caps and everyone looks really clean and they say things like, cost me my reticule. And I also knew that she. I hate that kind of film. So I knew that Chloe wasn't going to do that. And I also knew that she was going to come at it from an angle because there were other people who, you know, been in discussions about the film, and I felt that most of them were going to put Shakespeare front and center and it was going to be a different story, you know, and that's fine. There are plenty of films about Shakespeare, and I love them. But I wanted this one where the boy and his sisters and the mother were going to be front and center, the part of the story. I also knew that Chloe was going to do really good birth scenes. I. I'd never wanted Hamnet to be the kind of film where, you know, you see a woman, a female actor going, ooh, ooh. And then someone hands them a pristine baby. You know, I knew that Chloe was going to get right in there and.

[Interviewer (Reese's Book Club Host)]

It was going to be very vivid for everybody listening. Chloe just started dancing when Maggie said that. Why. Why the excited reaction, Chloe?

[Chloe Zhao]

Oh, I have never given birth before, by the way, so.

[Paul Mescal]

But.

[Chloe Zhao]

But I think in my films, Maggie could see that I'm all about the body.

[Interviewer (Reese's Book Club Host)]

Yeah.

[Chloe Zhao]

You know, and that is actually because I live in my head a lot, and I'm working really hard my whole life to get myself out of my head into my body. So I feel like if someone is really an embodied filmmaker, they wouldn't be making films as yearning for that and a quest for that. Maybe. I don't know. But so. So that is. So. I'm not saying that that comes easy. It's like going to be a lifelong work for me to reconnect my body and my. My. My mind, my heart and my mind, you know, so. Yeah, and the book just archetypally serves as such an incredible container for that heart, mind connection, you know, the connection of the forest and civilization and. And these two people. The way she gave birth, how embodied she is, everything about her relationship with the subconscious, which is in the body, is what he falls in love with and is what I think all of us are yearning. So when I read the book and to see Agnes, you know, being presented in that way, there's a deep yearning. I think in a lot of readers, they might not even realize that's the yearning. It's a yearning for Agnes.

[Interviewer (Reese's Book Club Host)]

A yearning for Agnes in what way? For somebody to see in the way.

[Chloe Zhao]

That there is Agnes in all of us that has been cast away, or we don't have a connection to that, to the way she is embodied with her environment, with the natural world, with her lineage. So she's deeply connected with her own heart, she thinks with her heart, you know, so. And I want to live like that. I want to live from my heart, not just from my mind. And so I love be able to see. When I read the book, I go, oh, yeah, this woman, this is what's missing in me. You know, I want to become more like her. Before I could even have a child, I feel, you know, so that I can pass on that to her instead of whatever I have going on, I'm doing better, you know?

[Danielle Robay]

Well, I was reading because you were.

[Interviewer (Reese's Book Club Host)]

Coming off of Nomadland, and I was reading that you wanted to find a story about a witchy woman. And now maybe I understand that more. Is that what you meant?

[Chloe Zhao]

I think. Well, by the way, there's another synchronicity, which is that Nomadland came out during the pandemic, too. And I actually didn't even think about that until Maggie and I are sat next to each other at a Q and A. I said, what? You came out during the pandemic? I came out during the pandemic. And then I think both our work, both Nomaland and Hamnet, I think his own life took its own path because of also the environment that it was birthed into. And he had this chemistry, this interaction with the audience in ways we probably never expected when we rolled it. Maggie, wouldn't you say, because of the pandemic?

[Maggie O'Farrell]

Yeah, I think, you know, the experience of the pandemic is casting long, long effects into everybody's lives. I see it particularly in my children. I think it's not something you can get over very quickly. And they. You kind of metabolize it and you move on. But it's always going to be part of us, I think.

[Paul Mescal]

Yeah.

[Chloe Zhao]

Which is so interesting how we both put out a piece of work that people responded to during that time, and then four years later, yeah, we came together and made this. And I think the way people are responding to. There are. There's still a remnants of that time people are still working through as well. So there's another one of those synchronicities also.

[Paul Mescal]

Normal people for me came out during the pandemic, like right at the start of the pandemic. I haven't recognized that.

[Chloe Zhao]

Oh my God.

[Paul Mescal]

That was like for all of us. That were for me for sure. That was like my first time of like doing anything that was outside of a theater scene in Dublin. So it's mad that the hell was an insane.

[Interviewer (Reese's Book Club Host)]

Really interesting. And Paul, I know you mentioned how much you love the book. Were you the one that urged Chloe to read it?

[Paul Mescal]

Well, there's these weird things that like actors and directors do, which are like these generals. But I knew that Chloe had been a. I didn't know that. I don't know if this is even true. I feel like this story has now grown legs beyond anything.

[Chloe Zhao]

But let's make it clear here, Paul. Let's once for all settle it.

[Paul Mescal]

Okay, so let's. My version of events is I heard that Chloe was flirting with the idea of doing Hamnet. I was a huge fan of the book and felt like I think I'm pretty disciplined in terms of going after things that I know that I really want to do. Like I won't do a meeting with a director, even if I admire them massively, that I. That I don't feel right for because I think it's a waste of time for any everyone. And I think it builds kind of like. Whereas with Chloe, I was like, I really want to work with Chloe. And I thought she was going to be doing Hamnet, but she didn't bring it up for like an hour. So we were walking along in Telluride and we were talking about love and everything other than Hamnet. And then you asked me to turn sideways in the thing and looked at me in profile and you're like, have you ever thought about playing William Shakespeare? At which point then I freaked out and urged Chloe, said she hadn't read the book. And I was like, that's the first thing you have to do is read the book. And I think you'd be incredibly excited. And Jesse also happened to be in Telluride with women talking.

[Chloe Zhao]

Yeah, that's my version of events, my version of it. I think there's only one tiny little missing link. There is that I was told by my team there's a. This is a general. They didn't say anything about Hamnes. Like that you knew I was. Because I only heard. I only got the call like A few hours before I got to Telluride in the car as I'm driving about Hyundai. And my first reaction was that I don't think I'm the right person for it because I haven't read the book and I heard the log line. I just didn't think I had the life experience to tell this story. Story. And so I heard this was a general. And I usually don't do generals with actors either. I know exactly what you mean. It's been like, if we don't have a project, what are we doing? But I didn't know who he was because I hadn't seen normal people. And after Song hasn't came out. But then I'm actually. I became interested because I thought he's, you know, not a famous actor. And that usually excites me. And then. So I just had a feeling. And then we met. So then when I.

[Interviewer (Reese's Book Club Host)]

Too bad. He became really famous in between the.

[Chloe Zhao]

Scene, in a short amount of time. But I remember on the phone saying to Jeb Brody from Amberlynn, I just don't know who can play young Shakespeare. That's going to excite me. I'm sorry. I just don't see. I don't know. I'm trying to think, and it's really hard to play a role like that. And you don't want to, you know, just. You want someone. I don't know. Like, that excites me. It got to excite me like the way Brady Genju excited me from the writer, you know, it's got to be like that to excite me. And then. And then. So when I look at Paul, I was like, can you turn this way? And I feel like this could.

[Maggie O'Farrell]

So.

[Chloe Zhao]

So I actually didn't know he knows anything about Hamne. And so when he reacted, I was like, hamne, you got to read the book.

[Maggie O'Farrell]

I go.

[Chloe Zhao]

I thought, oh, wow. And also he. Because, you know, my work. And you said to me, this book is going to surprise you. It's not what you think.

[Paul Mescal]

Yeah. I was sure that it was like. Because if you don't read the book and you're not, like, I don't know, a huge lover of Shakespeare, I think the concept of what the book is might be more alienating than the process of reading it, which even surprised me where when I read it, I was like, oh, this is the furthest thing from first and foremost. I don't think you actually have to be a fan of Shakespeare to really enjoy this book, because it's actually just about this relationship that I Think the kind of underlying quality is the fact that it is William Shakespeare and it is Anne Hathaway, but other than that, the characters and what they go through is so compelling and, I think, so accessible. And then I think probably, Chloe, for you, it's like once you hear William Shakespeare, you assume that that's going to be the subject of the book, and the book really isn't. In fact, in the book, I'd say Shakespeare is a far smaller character than it ended up being in the film. But, yeah, it's fascinating in that way.

[Interviewer (Reese's Book Club Host)]

Well, to your point, Paul, the character's never even named.

[Danielle Robay]

What's it like to play a character.

[Interviewer (Reese's Book Club Host)]

That'S never actually named when the person.

[Paul Mescal]

Happens to be William Shakespeare? It's very freeing because you have all the knowledge of who this person is and kind of one of those mythical figures that we actually know very little about. Factually, we know where he lived, his children, where they were born, when they died. But then you've got this kind of amazing source, which is his plays and his sonnets, and that becomes a more active way of building the character than, say, I don't know, playing a historical figure that we have more information about. But not naming him, I think, is a really clever thing that Maggie did, where it's like. It's very intentional. It is telling you specifically what the focus of this is about. It's not about. Because I think the minute you name someone and you give the name William Shakespeare, it becomes. And it happens in the film. The film, I think, shifts perspective. The minute you hear William Shakespeare in our film, you get a much more subjective experience of Will's grief. The minute the name is said, you cut to him and he's on his own. Like, you have a few moments in the film where he's on his own, but after that. And I think it's once you name. Once you say that name, you can't. And I don't know if I'm right in this, Maggie and Chloe, but I think it's very hard to make it just a subjective experience. For Anya's. After the name is said, then it becomes a more a balancing act. But I could be wrong, but that's my experience of when I watched the film.

[Danielle Robay]

I recently went on a big family trip, reuniting with cousins, aunts, uncles, people I hadn't seen in years. And we all got together in a warm place where the weather was perfect, the food was good, and all we had to do was reconnect. It was so much fun. We're already planning our next trip. Trips like that are truly unforgettable and what makes it even better is staying at a place on Airbnb. Now if you're planning any trips over winter, you could be hosting your home on Airbnb. And with Airbnb co host network you could hire a local co host to handle everything like creating your listing, managing reservations, guest communication, on site support, and even styling your space. So while you're making your own memories, your home can be helping another family make theirs and earning extra cash right? Find a co [e-mail] host Apple Books is the best place to read, listen to or discover the books you love without a subscription right on your iPhone. And now there's a very exciting heads up for listeners. Apple Books is the official audiobook and ebook home for Reese's Book Club, so it's easier than ever to explore each monthly book pick, plus author curated collections and more all in one place. Open the Apple Books app to explore a world of books and audiobooks. You can set goals and track your reading progress. Get great recommendations for your next read, or listen and enjoy it all on the go, wherever you are. You can even share your books with up to five family members at no cost. Again, no subscription required. Visit Apple Co ReeseAppleBooks to find out more. That's Apple Co Reese AppleBooks and read or listen to Reese's current Pick and browse past selections today on Apple Books. Today's episode is brought to you by Cotton. We spend a lot of time with stories, hours curled up with dynamic plots and with characters who feel like friends. What if the story isn't just in your hands but also in the world around you, in the fabric that's holding you close? Cotton is that timeless companion. Soft sheets for lazy weekend mornings with a book, breezy dresses for afternoons spent reading in the backyard. It's the fabric that can be tossed in the wash without fuss. It's about ease, comfort and caring for yourself and the planet. Just like the books we cherish, cotton weaves meaning into our everyday moments. Moments like following four adult daughters as they navigate love, loss and the legacy in the Most Fun We Ever had by Claire Lombardo, all while curled up in soft cotton joggers or sinking into the island of Missing Trees by Elif Shafak, a story that spans generations, forbidden love and a fig tree that remembers everything wrapped in a hand stitched quilt, each thread holding its own kind of memory. Next time you settle in for a chapter, slip into something cotton not just to read the story, but to Feel it. The fabric of our lives. Learn [e-mail] hey there.

[Dr. Jesse Mills]

This is Dr. Jesse Mills, Director of the Men's Clinic at UCLA Health and host of the Mailroom podcast. Each January, guys everywhere make the same get stronger, work harder, fix what's broken. But what if the real work isn't physical at all? To kick off the new year, I sat down with Dr. Steve Poulter, a psychologist with over 30 years experience helping men unpack shame, anxiety, and emotional pain they were never taught to name. In a powerful two part conversation, we discuss why men aren't emotionally bulletproof, why shame hides in plain sight, and how real strength comes from listening to yourself and to others.

[Dr. Steve Poulter]

Guys who are toxic, they're immature, or they've got something they just haven't resolved. Once that gets resolved, then there comes empathy and some compassion.

[Dr. Jesse Mills]

If you want this to be the year you stop powering through pain and start understanding what's underneath, listen to the mailroom on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite shows.

[Maggie O'Farrell]

Did you?

[Interviewer (Reese's Book Club Host)]

Because if you were reading Shakespeare's work, I'm curious if there was anything that you've pulled from or that stuck out to you that helped you shape the character.

[Paul Mescal]

It was. A lot of them were in the sonnets. And then there was the thing that surprised me the most, and Maggie. But on my memory of the play King John, there's this speech when grief fills up the room of Mike, which was written before Hamnet died. Is that right? In terms of the chronology?

[Maggie O'Farrell]

Yeah, that's right.

[Paul Mescal]

Blew my mind because I was like, I was reading, I was going through his plays and plays that I hadn't, I'd never read King John before. And I was going through these things and I read this speech, I was like, this must have been something that he wrote after the death of a child. And it actually, I think that play was, it was four years before something like that, before Hamlet died. And it really just got me thinking. This is a man who's got his finger on the pulse of humanity at large because it wasn't as linear as, like, oh, he wrote this after, after Hamlet died. And he has an understanding of that. What it told me was he's got an understanding about grief, life and death before it happens to him. And that is like this weird superpower that he has. He didn't have to. And then it gave me a freedom as an artist to be like, oh, you don't have to experience this to do it.

[Interviewer (Reese's Book Club Host)]

Did you identify with that?

[Paul Mescal]

The thing that I learned specifically about why I admire him so much is not his words. It's actually how much of himself as an artist he's willing to share with an audience forever. Because I think that's the hardest thing to do as an artist. It's how much of your personal experience you are willing to hand over to the masses. To be criticized, to be seen, to be loved, to be hated. And I think. And on top of that, you have one of the greatest wordsmiths of all time. So you have that talent on top of it. But I think we can overly focus on his language and not actually the. Maybe that was just me. I was just like. His language sometimes is inaccessible. But actually, what he's talking about, I think is his greatest gift as an artist.

[Interviewer (Reese's Book Club Host)]

That makes me emotional to hear. Actually. I haven't thought of it that way. But a true artist's role, you're right. It's how much are you willing to give over to the world? And that's why it's. When you see somebody be so vulnerable and somebody else and simultaneously themselves, all in one role. I think great actors, you completely shift into whichever role that you are playing. And yet you are bringing your deepest vulnerability of yourself as Paul into it. That's kind, and it is.

[Maggie O'Farrell]

It's.

[Interviewer (Reese's Book Club Host)]

What a difficult concoction it sounds like.

[Paul Mescal]

It's this punishing thing, and it can be that. But there is this, like, kind of amazing. We. We worked with this amazing dream. What, like. How would you call. What would you call it, Chloe? Like a dream. A dream work specialist, dreamwork specialist called Kim. We did this work that preceded us shooting, which was, like, what we thought the work was about for us as artists, inside it. But as we started filming, it totally changed. And it was through watching, like, Chloe and Jesse on set, where I was like, oh, it's. All of my thoughts about why I was doing it were all too small. And it suddenly became crystal clear to me. This is about, like, if you have something to say as an artist. Because that was my biggest fear was that I would feel too small to be playing Shakespeare because he's so seismic and. And the impact that he has had on the world is so. And then you. But I'm approaching it from one. My access point was one of being an artist in it as an actor, not as this kind of like, this consumer of the world that I think Shakespeare is. But as we were shooting, I was like, oh, no, it's not. The film isn't. Isn't about his like. Or the book? The book and the film isn't about his, like, output, about, like, how many plays he wrote or how brilliant he was. It's about his pursuit of, like, how relentless he is in pursuing some sort of truth on the page. And it just happens to be the play that we focus on, and this is Hamlet. But it's the pursuit of an artist rather than the kind of end point of the artist in the film and the book.

[Interviewer (Reese's Book Club Host)]

And that's what the dream work showed you, is that that was. That's what the point was for you.

[Paul Mescal]

Well, it became apparent to me that that was then actually what it was about for me. It's like, how. Like, how. And I'm sure all of us can relate to this to a certain extent on the zoom that there's, like, how that you sacrifice a lot of your personal relationships and your personal life. When you were going into something, like shooting Hamlet, for example, you go into this place because there's hopefully an intentional obligation where you're like, this is the priority of my life now. And you hope that when you finish it that your life hasn't gone into, like, tatters because you've neglected the other side of it. But that's why I was so brave about Shakespeare and artists in general. Why I admire them so much, is that you go and make a movie and you write a book or you go on stage, but you are making an intentional decision with yourself to remove yourself from the other part of your life, which I think is a scary thing, but also a thing that makes artists. They're very brave people to me.

[Interviewer (Reese's Book Club Host)]

Chloe, I'm curious what the DreamWorks practitioner, I don't know what to call them, brought up for you. What was the point for you in making the film?

[Chloe Zhao]

You know, the. I talked to Paul, I think day three in my trailer. We talked about dramatic irony. I don't know. You remember that, Paul? I don't think necessarily. Yeah, dramatic irony. And, you know, Agnes knew more than everyone else around her did. Right. Because she. In Maggie's book and because she. She has intuition that so many of us had shut off. She has a connection with the unseen, with the mystery. And so there is a moment in the film when she goes, hamne, you know, what are you doing here? You got to go upstairs. And then she lifts the blanket and she realizes. And Hamne was ill. And then there was a. There was a little, tiny, little shift in Jesse's face. There's almost a little bit of a. I know it sounds crazy, what I'M saying right now, but it's like a. A relaxed, like a. Like an under smile of like. Oh, and that's the same thing with Paul. When he sees the body of Hamnet, he comes back and he lifts the. You know, and he actually smiled. And the. The is. Is this is something that I search for so, so much. And I think that came out of the dream work for me is this. These two people have some kind of indifferent in their different ways, kind of knew more than those around them. And Paul, this makes me say that because what you just said about what he wrote even before Hamlet died because of the. For him, his capacity to understand this whole spectrum of human emotions as an artist, as a writer. And for her, she just is in her body, she's tapped in past, present, future. So that's why they kept falling in love. They have that much depth and at the same time there is almost like deep inside in their gut they know. And that is a really interesting concept for me, because when they discover what they had intuition about becomes true. How does the actor perform in that moment, you know? And so I think I mentioned that is because in the dream work, Paul had dreams a lot about the tension being pulled to different directions in your dreams. And when he was Ender, when he was like somatically under, we call it, it just means he's sort of in this half sleep, half awake state, in fact. You don't mind me sharing both?

[Paul Mescal]

No, of course, no.

[Chloe Zhao]

There were moments where he's. He was embodied. What it's like to be pulled into different directions of the content in his dreams, which I won't reveal, but I remember seeing his body, like, we had to like tone it down. We had to sort of lead him out of it because he was suffering so much. His body was like going through something really excruciating. And that is to be or not to be. And I think not, and I think not. Everyone lives walk around this world, right, being so tapped in and sensitive that they are not noticing the tension. They pick one side, you know, it's much easier to pick aside and stay there. The tension, the paradoxical tension is unbearable. But for people who know more, like Agnes and Will, they just have more information. They can't just put themselves in one end. It's impossible because they know what the other end is like. They know both exist. So do you know what I mean? So like I saw that in Paul and how difficult it has to hold that tension. But it's impossible for these two characters not to, because how deep and open they are. But that excites me as a director to to try to achieve those subtleties which is in the book. And one thing I would say reading the book gave me great anxieties because both me and Luke Hashem DP because the subtleties and the depth that Maggie is writing and you just go, oh man, like I have to be as good as one kar wai to be able to try to capture these, these nuances, you know, and we really would push for that. Yeah.

[Danielle Robay]

I recently went on a big family trip reuniting with cousins, aunts, uncles, people I hadn't seen in years. And we all got together in a warm place where the weather was perfect, the food was good, and all we had to do was reconnect. It was so much fun. We're already planning our next trip. Trips like that are truly unforgettable. And what makes it even better is staying at a place on Airbnb. Now if you're planning any trips over winter, you could be hosting your home on Airbnb. And with Airbnb co host network, you could hire a local co host to handle everything like creating your listing, managing reservations, guest communication, on site support, and even styling your space. So while you're making your own memories, your home can be helping another family make theirs and earning extra cash, right? Find a co [e-mail] host Apple Books is the best place to read, listen to or discover the books you love without a subscription right on your iPhone. And now there's a very exciting heads up for listeners. Apple Books is the official audiobook and ebook home for Reese's Book Club, so it's easier than ever to explore each monthly book pick, plus author curated collections and more all in one place. Open the Apple Books app to explore a world of books and audiobooks. You can set goals and track your reading progress. Get great recommendations for your next read or listen and enjoy it all on the go, wherever you are. You can even share your books with up to five family members at no cost. Again, no subscription required. Visit Apple co reeseapplebooks to find out more. That's Apple co reeseapplebooks and read or listen to Reese's current Pick and browse past selections today on Apple Books. Today's episode is brought to you by Cotton. We spend a lot of time with stories, hours curled up with dynamic plots and with characters who feel like friends. What if the story isn't just in your hands, but also in the world around you, in the fabric that's holding you close? Cotton is that timeless companion. Soft sheets for lazy weekend mornings with a book. Breezy dresses for afternoons spent reading in the backyard. It's the fabric that can be tossed in the wash without fuss. It's about ease, comfort and caring for yourself and the planet. Just like the books we cherish, cotton weaves meaning into our everyday moments. Moments like following four adult daughters as they navigate love, loss and the legacy in the Most Fun We Ever had by Claire Lombardo, all while curled up in soft cotton joggers. Or sinking into the island of Missing Trees by Elif Shafak. A story that spans generations. Forbidden love and a fig tree that remembers everything wrapped in a hand stitched quilt, each thread holding its own kind of memory. Next time you settle in for a chapter, slip into something cotton. Not just to read the story, but to feel it. Cotton the fabric of our lives. Learn [e-mail] hey there.

[Dr. Jesse Mills]

This is Dr. Jesse Mills, Director of the Men's Clinic at UCLA Health and host of the Mailroom podcast. Each January, guys everywhere make the same resolutions. Get stronger, work harder, fix what's broken. But what if the real work isn't physical at all? To kick off the new year, I sat down with Dr. Steve Poulter, a psychologist with over 30 years experience helping men unpack shame, anxiety and emotional pain. Pain they were never taught to name. In a powerful two part conversation, we discuss why men aren't emotionally bulletproof, why shame hides in plain sight, and how real strength comes from listening to yourself and to others.

[Dr. Steve Poulter]

Guys who are toxic, they're immature, or they've got something they just haven't resolved. Once that gets resolved, then there comes empathy and some compassion.

[Dr. Jesse Mills]

If you want this to be the year you stop powering through pain and start understanding what's underneath, listen to the mail room on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite shows.

[Interviewer (Reese's Book Club Host)]

Maggie, I'm so curious what it was like to revisit your work in this way, because you know this text better than absolutely anybody. What did it look like to start collaborating with Chloe? What did the script look like at the beginning? And did you see anything differently than you had when you were writing it?

[Paul Mescal]

I did.

[Maggie O'Farrell]

I feel that I learned a huge amount from adapting the book into a screenplay. I mean, I'd never done it before, so it was amazing. It was an amazing act of trust that Chloe asked me to do it with her, given that I was a complete novice in screenwriting. But obviously I had a very experienced co writer and Chloe Came, I think, to the process with a very, very clear idea of which strands of the book she wanted to keep and which ones we had to discard. Because, you know, obviously the first job is to cut a lot out because the novel is, I don't know, what, 350 pages, and a screenplay needs to be 90 pages. So there was an awful lot of that. So it taught me an awful lot about, you know, how to kind of actually decide which bits of the narrative need to be kept. Which beats have a kind of throughput throughout the whole thing. And, you know, there was a really interesting process that if, you know, if we took out one element, it had a weird sort of domino effect three or four scenes down the line when, you know, you take out one thing and then you suddenly realize that another character's motivation is no longer clear. So there was an awful lot of kind of sorting out, which I find really fascinating. It's a bit like a kind of puzzle working something out. But also, I learned a huge amount about economy and trust. Because obviously, when I. When we were working on the first draft, I would kind of write something like, you know, interior house. And then I would say, the house is this, and it's got this, and the room is like this. And then I look at Chloe's version, she just said, interior house. Bam. Right into dialogue. And I'd think, okay, I need. I think I'm going, you know, this is my novelist instinct working out. This is. This has all got to go. And then, of course, you realize, you know, you're on set and you realize that actually, as a screenwriter rather than a novelist. As a novelist, you're a lone wolf. You know, you're responsible for everything, and every detail you put in has to be in. But on set, you realize that actually you are trusting that Paul and Jessie and Jacoby are going to put all the nuance that you have in your description in the novel into the lines. And Fiona Crombie, the set designer, and Malgota, the costume designer, are going to add all that color. And, you know, so you realize that actually collaboration is about. As. My job as the scriptwriter, co script writer, was to be economic and to trust everybody else to put back in what we'd had to strip out.

[Interviewer (Reese's Book Club Host)]

Is there anything that, in hindsight, you wish would have been put in or anything that actually came to life better than you anticipated?

[Maggie O'Farrell]

I think the real joy of the film for me, over the book is the last sort of 10, 15 minutes. Because in a novel, you know, the scene. I hope it's not spoilers to say that it ends at the Globe Theatre with the first production of Hamlet. And in a novel, you can't cut and paste large screeds of Shakespeare into a book. You just. It just doesn't work on the page. You can't expect your readers to read through that. So you've got to re. Really, you know, you've got to have just a few lines here and there. But in the film, we did completely let Shakespeare's flag fly. And we could have whole speeches and we could have costumes. We could have Paul coming on as the ghost, you know, dressed in this really spooky kind of under the earth costume. I mean, it's just that for me is such a joy. I always felt that, you know, you know, when you're at school and you always get asked, you know, if you had a. If you had a time traveling machine, where would you go? And I've always wanted to go back to the Globe for the first production of Hamlet. And now I have because. Because Chloe built it and Paul acted it. So, you know, I'm a very happy author.

[Interviewer (Reese's Book Club Host)]

Well, I was listening to so many of your interviews leading up to this, and it sounds like that last scene, the last 10 to 15 minutes actually, there was a lot of conflict and a lot of. I don't know if conflict is the right word, but sort of like push and pull in trying to get this right.

[Danielle Robay]

How did it change what.

[Interviewer (Reese's Book Club Host)]

What was happening at the end from how you had written it, Maggie, versus what actually landed in the end of the film?

[Maggie O'Farrell]

Well, I think. I mean, I don't want to put words in Chloe's mouth here, but I think the way that Chloe works is quite instinctive. And I think it's very, very kind of community led in a sense. You know, we kind of created this kind of Hamnet family. And Chloe, I always felt, was listening to every member of the family, you know, whether it was somebody doing the lighting, somebody doing the makeup, you know, and in a sense, I think the. What's so special about the last 10 minutes of the film is that it is a communal experience. It's a wide experience that hundreds, you know, the original capacity of the globe theater was 3,000 people. So if you imagine there were 3,000 people watching Hamlet and everybody is going through and people, you know, people arriving at that theater that day would have been expecting quite a conventional revenge tragedy, which Hamlet isn't. I mean, it borrows a lot of tropes from that, but it isn't. It takes into whole Other new areas, and it goes down very, very different branches. And they would have been really shocked, particularly that Hamlet died, because in revenge tragedies the hero doesn't die. He goes through lots of terrible things and then he triumphs at the end. And people would have been absolutely horrified when Hamlet dies because it just would never have been seen before on stage. And I think Chloe, in getting to that point, getting to the audience, the cinema audience, bringing the cinema audience, who all know roughly what happens in Hamlet, I think along and giving them the experience of seeing something new like those original 3,000 people would have had. I think she listened to everybody, actors, sound, everybody, and just to kind of create something new and surprising and also very cathartic.

[Chloe Zhao]

I was on the train from New York to la was like the big crucible of getting a version of the script out. And I remember Maggie was sending me the final 20 pages because it was the first time, like I said, I asked her to pick the scenes from Hamlet and write the ending. And so I remember she asked me.

[Maggie O'Farrell]

To edit Hamlet, which was really very. I felt, you can do it, Maggie. I know cutting Shakespeare was very fraught experience. Anyway, sorry.

[Chloe Zhao]

But see, this is why it's a good collaboration, because to me it doesn't matter as much. I'm only loyal to the Maggie universe, so and so. But then I remember probably on like day three of those four day train ride, I was delirious. But then I remember receiving those last 20 some pages. And even though it's not in the action that you see in the film, which is the job of the director is trying to. And the actors trying to find how it's manifested. But I remember the description, Maggie, you wrote of her, you know, he dies, and the description of the collective communal experience and what that did to her in beautifully literary poses. How do you say?

[Maggie O'Farrell]

Pose?

[Chloe Zhao]

Yeah. And, and, and I remember feeling like, holy shit, this is a version of Remember Me Blank. Right. Which is like so old and so ancient that language compared to cinematic language. Like, how is it going to be translated into a film? But I remember reading the bigger description in the last page of those 20 pages and being in that little train car going, we have a film. If we can get here, then we have a film. And then it did take really a long time of being moving with this family, this village, with these actors and everyone to the point of getting to Globe for everyone to figure out how to manifest physically that description that I received on the train. And so it's very much of this collaboration and in terms of Shakespeare. There's one line in Hamlet that now I take it everywhere that I didn't realize it was a big deal because I was too young to understand. All living things must die passing through nature to eternity. Because I didn't grow up or in my life understood the nature part or the eternity part. All I knew is all living things must die. Having now grown up with religion or spirituality. And so it took me a long time to try to get in touch with nature. That's why I'm drawn to Agnes. And through making Hamnet, I had a very spiritual experience in that Globe theater. I got a taste of what eternity is like when the entire cast and crew are opening their heart and grieving together and sending strength and love towards Hamlet. And that physically showed me in an embodied way what eternity is like. And that's love. And so I think, like, that line finally made sense to me.

[Interviewer (Reese's Book Club Host)]

You're making me think of the descriptor of this film. Everybody keeps calling it primal. That's the word they keep using. Paul, you said that the chemistry you had with Jesse is at the center of this film. Your quote exactly was, we became attuned to each other as if we were married. And I haven't experienced that before. And then Jesse, in the Critics Choice, in her Critic's Choice Award speech, said, she could drink you like water. Which I also have never heard.

[Maggie O'Farrell]

Great line.

[Paul Mescal]

Let's be honest. That is when that immediately made me well up. When Jesse said that, I was like, christ almighty. It was. Yeah, it was a very beautiful speech.

[Interviewer (Reese's Book Club Host)]

It seems like you guys have this really deep love and respect for each other. When she said, and I know we're laughing, that she could drink you up like water. But as somebody inside of that relationship.

[Danielle Robay]

What did she mean?

[Interviewer (Reese's Book Club Host)]

What did you guys experience?

[Paul Mescal]

I think she's just far more articulate at the thing that I. I share that feeling for her. It's like, I don't know how to. Because it doesn't feel right. Because it was. It's rooted in respect and collaboration. Right? Like, that's the starting point. I was such an admirer of her. But then it became. And is this other thing now. It's like, have not a single person on planet Earth ever seen this film or ever read this person book? We had gone through this together. It still, to me is. It's been such a key. It is. My relationship with Jesse is a very key relationship in my life generally now, inside and outside of the film. And I think it is because of what was asked of us. And maybe the actors that we are in terms of, I think this film came to us at the right time when there was something that we wanted to express in our own lives and we felt safe enough to be held by the other person to go and do it. And that wouldn't be embarrassing or that we wouldn't be judged. In fact, we would be judged if we didn't do it. That was the only judgment that I think would have happened is if we didn't fully commit. And I think me and, I know me and Jesse are both very committed actors, but there was something, there was something in the water around the time of shooting this that we went maybe a little step further than we have or. I can only speak for myself and that because I wouldn't want to comment on Jesse, but I feel like because of having her there and Chloe and the material that Maggie gave us, I feel like it then allowed a relationship to and a chemistry to build that was maybe not necessarily just on the page. It became a thing that co existed between me and Jesse and also between Anya's and Will. And that's like the dream and a rare thing to find. And I've had really incredible collaborations across my career. There's some. There's something slightly different about this one, I think.

[Danielle Robay]

I recently went on a big family trip reuniting with cousins, aunts, uncles, people I hadn't seen in years. And we all got together in a warm place where the weather was perfect, the food was good, and all we had to do was reconnect. It was so much fun. We're already planning our next trip. Trips like that are truly unforgettable. And what makes it even better is staying at a place on Airbnb. Now, if you're planning any trips over winter, you could be hosting your home on Airbnb. And with Airbnb co host network, you could hire a local co host to handle everything like creating your listing, managing reservations, guest communication on site support, and even styling your space. So while you're making your own memories, your home can be helping another family make theirs and earning extra cash, right? Find a co [e-mail] host Apple Books is the best place to read, listen to or discover the books you love without a subscription right on your iPhone. And now there's a very exciting heads up for listeners. Apple Books is the official audiobook and ebook home for Reese's Book Club. So it's easier than ever to explore each monthly book pick, plus author curated collections and more all in one place. Open the Apple Books app to explore a world of books and audiobooks. You can set goals and track your reading progress. Get great recommendations for your next read, or listen and enjoy it all on the go, wherever you are. You can even share your books with up to five family members at no cost. Again, no subscription required. Visit Apple Co reesapplebooks to find out more. That's Apple Co reeseapplebooks and read or listen to Reese's current Pick and browse past selections today on Apple Books. Today's episode is brought to you by Cotton we spend a lot of time with stories, hours curled up with dynamic plots and with characters who feel like friends. What if the story isn't just in your hands but also in the world around you, in the fabric that's holding you close? Cotton is that timeless companion. Soft sheets for lazy weekend mornings with a book. Breezy dresses for afternoons spent reading in the backyard. It's the fabric that can be tossed in the wash without fuss. It's about ease, comfort and caring for yourself and the planet. Just like the books we cherish, cotton weaves meaning into our everyday moments. Moments like following four adult daughters as they navigate love, loss, and the legacy in the Most Fun We Ever had by Claire Lombardo, all while curled up in soft cotton joggers. Or Sinking into the island of Missing Trees by Elif Shafak. A story that spans generations, forbidden love and a fig tree that remembers everything wrapped in a hand stitched quilt, each thread holding its own kind of memory. Next time you settle in for a chapter, slip into something Cotton. Not just to read the story, but to feel it. Cotton the Fabric of Our lives. Learn [e-mail] hey there.

[Dr. Jesse Mills]

This is Dr. Jesse Mills, Director of the Men's Clinic at UCLA Health and host of the Mailroom podcast. Each January, guys everywhere make the same resolutions get stronger, work harder, fix what's broken. But what if the real work isn't physical at all? To kick off the new year, I sat down with Dr. Steve Poulter, a psychologist with over 30 years experience helping men unpack shame, anxiety and emotional pain they were never taught to name. In a powerful two part conversation, we discuss why men aren't emotionally bulletproof, why shame hides in plain sight, and how real strength comes from listening to yourself and to others.

[Dr. Steve Poulter]

Guys who are toxic, they're immature, or they've got something they just haven't resolved. Once that gets resolved, then there comes empathy and some compassion.

[Dr. Jesse Mills]

If you want this to be the year you stop powering through pain and Start understanding what's underneath. Listen to the mailroom on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite shows.

[Interviewer (Reese's Book Club Host)]

I'm really curious how each of you are going to remember the experience of Hamnet. Maggie, may I start with you?

[Maggie O'Farrell]

I think I found being on set just. It just kind of blew my mind. I think partly I was just excited to be out and on a film set, which, you know, as I said, you know, the life of a novelist is quite solitary. You spend most of your life at home in your pajamas, talking to your imaginary friends. And then you go on a film set, and it's all really interesting. And all these people who are absolute. The top of their game are doing. Doing their thing, and. And then, you know, you'd hear. I'd have the headphones on, and I'd hear someone say a line, and I'd think, oh, God, I. Yeah, I wrote. I wrote that. And you kind of forget that it's actually for a book that you spent years thinking about. And so I just. Yeah, I just. I love that. And I found the whole experience of watching, just watching everybody who was involved was completely. Had such a very specific skill and did it all so brilliantly. It was just. It was wonderful to be a part of.

[Interviewer (Reese's Book Club Host)]

Are you changed from it?

[Maggie O'Farrell]

I think all experiences change you. Yeah, I'm sure. And I. You never quite know at the time, you know that it's going to change you, and you know that it'll come out at some point in something that you do or something that you make and. But you don't know how. And that's going to be interesting.

[Interviewer (Reese's Book Club Host)]

Chloe, how about you? How will you remember this?

[Chloe Zhao]

It's changed. It's very much changed my life. And I even look at this period which is getting the film out. You know, usually it was not. It's a part of the experience. I could be a little cynical about in the past, but this time, no, I treasured every moment of it. It's like an integration. Every screening we go to, every Q and A, every, you know, things we do, like we're doing right now. And I remember Maggie and I were at one of the events, bookstore maybe, and then she said it was the first time. I don't remember. I don't know why. I don't know these things. Maddie, you probably told me, but I wasn't listening. But she said that she was in school when she first. You know, the name Hamnet. And Shakespeare had a son and he died. And there's this little boy that's forgotten by history and so many years that she carried that in her right. But there in the moment when her first curiosity goes, why don't they talk about this little boy? And to me, that little moment is, that's it. That's the point of contact when Agnes touches harmless hand. That's what artists do, is to build that bridge. From these questions we have, why isn't he remembered and how many decades later here we are. And it's moments like that and sitting next to her, hearing her talking about it, just kind of feel like something much bigger is at work than us. And we're just vessels and conjures and chosen in the moment to carry out this work. It just kind of makes me feel like, oh yeah, my job means something. This is nice. I like it.

[Interviewer (Reese's Book Club Host)]

Chloe, for someone who didn't grow up with a spirituality practice, you sound pretty spiritual to me.

[Chloe Zhao]

I'm working on it. Okay. I'm staring at the void. It's right there. So I have to work on this before it's too late.

[Interviewer (Reese's Book Club Host)]

Paul, I am really curious, how did this change you? How will you remember the experience of Hamnet?

[Paul Mescal]

I have kind of two separate answers to that. One is that discovery that I alluded to before, which was the not apologizing for being an artist. This concept of there's enough sacrifice that goes. And it's not about. I don't think artists are latently self punishing or any of these things, but I think we can apologize. I think maybe it's an Irish and an English thing more so than an American thing, but we apologize for our output a little bit more. And actually speaking personally, there's a lot of sacrifice that's gone into the last six, seven years to go and make something. And if you're going to do it, I don't think I've learned that you can't apologize for it anymore, which is a big learning for me. And I think what the film is talking about. And then like a central memory to me that is probably the clearest thing that I've ever shot was which is kind of a small, tiny moment in the film. There's a moment when me and Jesse are running through the woods after I say the Orpheus and Eurydice story to her. And we're running through and I can remember the 20 seconds that preceded action. I remember just looking at Jesse and just taking off through the woods. And I was like, this is what like creativity feels like in a much more expressionistic way. I know there's so many other scenes that are in it. But that, to me felt like. And you feel it on camera. You feel that joy of, like, expression and bodies getting big and the feeling being, like just coming up through you. And I think that as a shot captures what it felt like making this film, that it's not the experience of maybe watching it being a cathartic grief for us within it. When you arrive at those moments of cathartic grief, there's actually a weird joy that comes with it because you're doing your job and you're expressing something that you're hoping is going to be universal. So that that moment, I would. I would say, is key for me.

[Interviewer (Reese's Book Club Host)]

Thank you. I'm going to switch up the energy as we wrap. We're going to have a little fun. Two quick things. The first is what have you bookmarked this week? It could be a text, a quote.

[Chloe Zhao]

I go, it's from the in. It's from Instagram. It says something about grief being the placenta that will gave birth to you. That's the most close quote because I love that it just sums up. I couldn't quite back to your birthing scene because the is saying that the world, the version of you had died because what you lost and who you lost is no longer there. So you do need to rebirth. And grief is actually that presenter that you need to hold you through that rebirthing process. I was like, check. I'm gonna say that at some point. Point.

[Interviewer (Reese's Book Club Host)]

Thank you for saying it here. We appreciate that.

[Chloe Zhao]

Yeah, I heard it first. Yeah.

[Interviewer (Reese's Book Club Host)]

Maggie, what have you bookmarked?

[Maggie O'Farrell]

I've been reading, rereading Mary Oliver this week. And yeah, I love Mary Oliver. And my favorite one, my favorite line is, what do you plan to do with your one wild and precious life? And I think it's fabulous. I think it's such a great question. It's a great question that we should all have. Every day when we wake up, we think about our lives. And the adjectives wild and precious are so perfect and so worth remembering.

[Interviewer (Reese's Book Club Host)]

Well said. Thank you for that. Paul, what have you bookmarked?

[Paul Mescal]

It weirdly came up as part of this process, actually. Seamus Heaney's new book I got for Christmas. And then it brought me back to his poem the Underground, which I love very, very much that people haven't read. I would suggest getting into it because it's one of my favorite poems.

[Chloe Zhao]

Great. I love that you guys talk about poetry. And then I have an Instagram post that sums it up the Shakespeare rehearsal part.

[Interviewer (Reese's Book Club Host)]

I want to do something Kind of silly with you guys. I want to try envisioning a page to screen show Shakespeare adaptation, and we're gonna do it in 60 seconds. So, Paul, what Shakespeare play are we adapting?

[Paul Mescal]

We're adopting Macbeth.

[Danielle Robay]

Amazing.

[Interviewer (Reese's Book Club Host)]

Chloe, what era are we gonna be in the future? Can you be a little more specific?

[Chloe Zhao]

Oh, year 3000.

[Maggie O'Farrell]

I love it.

[Interviewer (Reese's Book Club Host)]

Okay, Maggie, where are we?

[Chloe Zhao]

In space.

[Interviewer (Reese's Book Club Host)]

Oh, Maggie, what's the setting?

[Chloe Zhao]

Where are we?

[Maggie O'Farrell]

Apparently we're in space and the king of space is not doing a great job. And this lieutenant of his, space Lieutenant Macbeth, decides to off him. And Macbeth's wife is on board and keen for him to do it.

[Paul Mescal]

Like Han Solo esque.

[Maggie O'Farrell]

Yeah. It all happens on a spaceship. And maybe they're not even human. Maybe they're part human, part animal. Who knows?

[Paul Mescal]

Yeah.

[Danielle Robay]

Ooh.

[Interviewer (Reese's Book Club Host)]

Thank you for giving us the conflict as well, Paul. What's one thing from the original that we're going to keep the same?

[Paul Mescal]

A dagger. I think a dagger is key. Like the kind a traditional dagger. I think it's like frightening. Yeah, I think we're gonna go traditional dagger.

[Interviewer (Reese's Book Club Host)]

Maggie, what's one thing that we're gonna change?

[Maggie O'Farrell]

I think maybe Lady Macbeth should. Should stay alive. Let's see what happens if she stays. If she stays in the play. See what happens. See how it changes things.

[Paul Mescal]

Oof.

[Interviewer (Reese's Book Club Host)]

Chloe, since you're now the queen of endings, what is our communal clever ending here?

[Chloe Zhao]

Unsex me here. I'm sorry, that's my favorite line.

[Interviewer (Reese's Book Club Host)]

You are so funny.

[Chloe Zhao]

Because I love that line. Because she has to give up her femininity to be strong, that. To do what needs to be done, you know? But maybe if she stays alive, something shifts and she will find strength in that. She doesn't need to be unsexed to do something really extraordinary. So we'll see.

[Interviewer (Reese's Book Club Host)]

And lastly, Maggie, you write some really heart wrenching, tear jerking pieces. What is the key to making audiences cry?

[Maggie O'Farrell]

God. Well, it's not as if I set out and think, right? Okay. I sit down in the morning and think, no. How can I absolutely wring these tears out of people? Oh, I don't know. And I think, well, I think you have to be in. You have to be immersed and involved in it yourself. I mean, when I was writing the scenes where Hamnet dies in the novel and it gets laid out for burial, those were some of the hardest things I've ever written. And I couldn't write them in the house. I had to write them in the garden, in a shed. I couldn't do them in the house where my own children live. And I did it in kind of 15 minute bursts and had a little break and then I went back in again. Took me about a fortnight to write those two scenes and they were really hard and I was really upset. So I think you have to be, you have to be right there in the beating pulse of the book to and you have to feel the grief. You've got to feel whatever you want your characters to feel.

[Chloe Zhao]

Well said.

[Interviewer (Reese's Book Club Host)]

I really, really love every interview I get to do, but it is such a privilege to speak with people that are so expansive and thoughtful and smart. And I really feel like the movie that you guys made is shifting something in people. So thank you for letting me be a very minuscule part of the press tour. I appreciate your time.

[Paul Mescal]

Thanks for your time.

[Chloe Zhao]

Thank you for having us.

[Maggie O'Farrell]

Thank you for having us.

[Danielle Robay]

Okay, friends, before we wrap today's episode, I'm bringing back our monthly comfort segment from Cotton. Called the Book Nook. It's where we explore the rituals that make reading feel feel just right. Especially this time of year when the days get shorter and all we want is a warm spot to curl into.

[Interviewer (Reese's Book Club Host)]

With a good story.

[Danielle Robay]

And as you know, cotton is at the heart of so many of life's everyday comforts. Maybe that's your favorite cozy sweater, a worn in scarf, or those soft cotton sheets you slip into after a cold day outside. Cotton helps us feel grounded and at ease, which makes it the perfect companion for a good book wherever you read it. By the fire, by a window on a snowy afternoon, or under a thick throw on the couch. So let's hear from another bookmarked listener sharing their ideal reading setup.

[Julia (Listener)]

Hey, bookmarked. Hey Danielle. This is Julia calling in from the wonderful Bull City, Durham, North Carolina. Like many adults with busy lives, my most concentrated reading time these days feels elusive or, you know, caught on long plane or train rides. But those definitely aren't my favorite it. Especially given that it's winter. My ideal reading scenario at the moment has a few common features. Whether it's here in my living room down south or up with my family in New England, I'm in a comfy chair or chaise in front of a fire. When it's cold outside, that fire is a must. That's my favorite. The smell, the light, the sound, the warmth. It's perfect. I'm in soft pants, obviously. Ideally, it's late afternoon, sun is going down, but it's not quite dark. Start get hot cup of tea next to me. The only sounds besides a fire or the turning of pages. Maybe an occasional aside from my fellow readers if I'm with loved ones. Generally, we're a crew that can get down with quiet time for an hour or two, or snore if someone has fallen asleep. I'm not a napper, but for me, reading quietly is the equivalent relaxing, stolen moments doing something I've loved as long as I can remember. Such a treat.

[Danielle Robay]

Julia, this is gorgeous. I can feel that scene, the fire going, the late afternoon light fading. Everyone tucked into their own literary worlds, sharing that kind of quiet calm with the people you love while wrapped in the softness of a well worn pair of cotton lounge pants or a favorite hoodie. It just makes the season feel so indulgent. That kind of comfort. The warmth, the texture, the stillness. It's exactly why cotton shows up in so many of our winter rituals. It's really the fabric that makes slowing down feel even better. So friends, keep your ideal reading setups coming. What does winter comfort look like for you? Are you curled up under a cotton throw, reading by the glow of a fireplace or a soft lamp, wearing your coziest cotton hoodie while snow falls outside? Take me right into that moment. Leave me a voicemail at 501-291-3379 or tell me this. Where do you get lost in a book and what comforting textures surround you? Send your story to bookmarkedesbookclub.com and thanks to Cotton for bringing this segment to life and for reminding us that comfort and style go hand in hand. Don't forget to check the tag for Cotton. And if you want to learn more, head to thefabricofourlives.com. And if you want a little bit more from us, come hang with us on socials. We're at Reese's Book Club on Instagram, serving up books, vibes and behind the scenes magic. And I'm at Danielle Robay Robay, Come say hi and DM me. And if you want to go 90s on us, call us. Okay, our phone line is open, so call now at 1-501291-3379. That's 1-501-292-913379. Share your literary hot takes, book recommendations, questions about the monthly pick, or let us know what you think about the episode you just heard. And who knows, you might just hear yourself in our next episode. So don't be shy, give us a ring. And of course, make sure to follow. Bookmarked by Reese's Book club on the iHeartRadio app Apple podcast or wherever you get your shows. Until then, see you in the next chapter. Bookmarked is a production of hello Sunshine and iheart Podcast. It's executive produced by Reese Witherspoon and me, Danielle Robaix. Production is by Acast Creative Studios. Our producers are Maddie Foley, Brittany Martinez, Sarah Schleed. Our production assistant is Avery Loftus. Jenny Kaplan and Emily Rutter are the executive producers for AK Creative Studios. Maureen Polo and Reese Witherspoon are the executive producers for hello Sunshine. Olga Kaminwa, Kristin Perla and Ashley Rapoport are associate producers for Reese's Book Club. Ally Perry and Lauren Hanson are the executive producers for iHeart podcasts. Apple Books is the best way to read or listen to the books you love without a subscription right on your iPhone and a heads up for listeners.

[Interviewer (Reese's Book Club Host)]

Apple Books is the official audiobook and.

[Danielle Robay]

Ebook home for Reese's Book Club so you can discover every exciting pick, plus author curated collections and more all in one place. Open the Apple Books app to explore a world of books and audiobooks. You can set and track your reading goals and get great recommendations for your next read or listen again. No subscription required. Visit apple.co reese that's R E E S E Applebooks to find out more. Today's episode is brought to you by Cotton. We spend a lot of time with stories, hours curled up with dynamic plots and characters who feel like friends. What if the story isn't just in your hands but also in the world around you, in the fabric that's holding you close? Cotton is that timeless companion. Soft sheets for a lazy weekend morning with a book. Breezy dresses for afternoons spent reading in the backyard. It's the fabric that can be tossed in the wash without fuss. It's about ease, comfort and caring for yourself and the planet. Just like books we cherish, cotton weaves meaning into everyday moments. Next time you settle in for a chapter, slip into something cotton. Not just to read the story, but to feel it. Cotton the fabric of our lives. Learn [e-mail] this is Dr. Jesse Mills.

[Dr. Jesse Mills]

Host of the Mailroom podcast. Each January, men promise to get stronger, work harder, and fix what's broken. But what if the real work isn't physical at all? I sat down with psychologist Dr. Steve Poulter to unpack shame, anxiety, and the emotional pain men were never taught how to name.

[Dr. Steve Poulter]

Part of the way through the valley of despair is real. Realizing this has happened and you have to make a choice whether you're going to stay in it or move forward.

[Dr. Jesse Mills]

Our two part conversation is available now. Listen to the mailroom on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite shows.

[Danielle Robay]

This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.