Start Over, Stay Messy: A Conversation with Ashley Jordan

Summary

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Bookmarked by Reese’s Book Club

Episode: "Start Over, Stay Messy: A Conversation with Ashley Jordan"

Host: Danielle Robay

Guest: Ashley Jordan (author of Once Upon a Time in Dollywood)

Date: August 26, 2025

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Overview

In this rich, candid episode of Bookmarked, host Danielle Robay sits down with Ashley Jordan, Reese's Book Club’s August pick author of Once Upon a Time in Dollywood. The conversation dives into building complex female protagonists, the messiness and joys of new beginnings, millennial culture, Black women’s communities, the aesthetics and meaning behind character choices, and the deep influence of pop culture and music—especially Dolly Parton, Beyoncé, and Lauryn Hill—on Jordan’s writing. Ashley also reveals her “manifesting” mindset, insight into literary mentorship, and her hopes for her next projects.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Story and Its Inspiration

• Summary of the novel (03:07):
  • Eve, a playwright, escapes a breakup and estrangement from her parents by fleeing to her grandmother's house in Tennessee “to write.”
  • She intends to be alone but gets involved with Jamie Gallagher (the “sunshiny single dad next door”).
  • It’s a classic “grumpy sunshine” romance—Eve is the grumpy one, Jamie the sunshine.
  • The undercurrent: Both characters have baggage and emotional exhaustion, but their journey is toward healing through vulnerability and learning to stop overthinking.
• Theme: “Start over, stay messy”—embracing imperfection as a path to growth.

2. Dedication and the Power of Black Womanhood

• Ashley reads her heartfelt dedication (06:06):
  • “To all the Black girls and women mistaken for difficult when they just needed to be seen. And to the village of Black women who not only raised me but lifted me. … I love you.”
• On the addition of “I love you”:
  • “It is the love of this village of women who made sure I made it to this point. So I thought it’s important to say, yeah, these are my grandma Hazels. And so thank you, I love you.” – Ashley Jordan (06:36)

3. Complex Female Protagonists & “Unlikable” Heroines

• Ashley argues for women’s right to be flawed:
  • “Why can’t she be unlikable? She’s going through something harrowing. … I think it’s really important that we let women be unlikable, especially when they have reason to. But even if they don’t have reason to be, let’s just be flawed and complicated and mean if we need to be.” (07:26)
• On writing Eve:
  • “She is really hurting and healing. The only way out of this is through, but she has to figure that out for herself.” – Ashley Jordan (08:18)

4. Generational, Cultural, and Millennial Context

• Eve’s millennial traits: Disney references, pop culture nostalgia, and a belief in fairy tales (09:33).
• On expectation vs. belief:
  • “You don’t have to believe you deserve it, you just have to expect it.” – Danielle Robay (10:30)
  • “Women are conditioned not to expect things, and so it’s hard to do that... But yes, I think that it’s powerful because then you put yourself in positions to get there.” – Ashley Jordan (10:49)

5. Pop Culture Infusion

• Eve as a blend of Molly Carter (Insecure) and Nora Durst (The Leftovers) (15:22)
• Ashley’s influences:
  • “She loves a Disney movie… she’s definitely a Disney millennial, and that part of her is definitely me.” – Ashley Jordan (09:33)
  • Frequent pop culture references, from Nene Leakes to Mad Men.

6. Character as Catharsis

• Ashley wrote from her own experiences of imposter syndrome and anxiety (16:05), especially during the pandemic:
  • “I kind of worked through that with her… when people started saying they liked it… I was just waiting for the other shoe to drop.”

7. Biblical and Symbolic Layering

• On naming Eve:
  • “She’s dealing with so much guilt, this desire to sort of carve her own path outside of what’s been expected of her. The way she walks away from her life is a bit of a fall from grace, in a way. But she’s not punished for it.” – Ashley Jordan (17:49)
• On Jamie:
  • “He’s almost like a biblical figure because he’s her road to healing… his gentleness with her and his grace with her felt almost like pastoral in a way. … While it wasn’t a conscious biblical reference, it ended up being one.” (18:28)

8. Motherhood and Identity

• Inciting incident: Eve’s miscarriage raises questions about what women really want, versus what’s expected or imposed by society (19:43).
• “That whole exploration of the idea of motherhood, I think, is super interesting because you get such a small window to do it. … Women have it hard.” – Ashley Jordan (21:20)

9. Self-Care During Creative Process

• Coping during the pandemic: writing and grad school as escapes from the heaviness of the world (23:25)
• On sleep: "No, I don't remember sleeping." – Ashley Jordan (24:10)

10. Journey to Publication & the Value of Community

• Experience as a 2023 Lit Up fellow gave Ashley mentorship (with Jasmine Guillory!) and a peer community (28:19).
• Manifestation works: “I manifested it... and next thing I know I got an email from Jasmine. So manifesting works.” – Ashley Jordan (28:48)

11. Music as Inspiration

• Music’s role:
  • “I can have music. I can’t have music with lyrics. So I usually just listen to, like, classical music or the Succession soundtrack. But I think music is, in general, just a very big inspiration.” – Ashley Jordan (32:19)
  • On fanfiction and Lemonade: “Albums are very much like books. You know, the songs are chapters. They tell a story. A really good album is a really good story.” (33:12)
  • Cranes in the Sky by Solange was a key song during editing.

12. Interactive Writing & Audience Consideration

• Influence of fanfiction:
  • “When you are writing fanfiction, you are posting usually one chapter at a time and getting feedback.” (34:29)
  • “I wrote with those sort of comments in mind, like, okay, don’t do this, because this will piss them off.” – Ashley Jordan

13. Manifesting and Next Projects

• Calling in: Hopes to write about Eve’s best friend Maya and her fiancée Siobhan:
  • “I would really love to write something about Eve’s best friend, Maya and her fiancée Siobhan. … We’ll see what happens.” (38:33)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On the Dedication:

• “To all the Black girls and women mistaken for difficult when they just needed to be seen. And to the village of Black women who not only raised me but lifted me. … I love you.” – Ashley Jordan (06:06)

On Writing Unlikable Heroines:

• “Let women be unlikable, especially when they have reason to. … Let’s just be flawed and complicated and mean if we need to be.” – Ashley Jordan (07:26)

On Fairy Tales and Manifesting:

• “You manifest your destiny. I really do believe that. And so, yes, wanting that fairy tale, even if you don’t feel like you deserve it. I think that’s how Eve ended up where she did.” – Ashley Jordan (10:03)

On the Biblical Allusion in Character Design:

• “He’s almost like a biblical figure because he’s her road to healing. … His gentleness with her and his grace with her felt almost like pastoral in a way.” – Ashley Jordan (18:28)

On Music & Storytelling:

• “Albums are very much like books. … the songs are chapters. They tell a story. A really good album is a really good story. So I think that I use them in that way. They inspired me to write.” – Ashley Jordan (33:12)

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Important Segment Timestamps

• 03:07 – Ashley summarizes Once Upon a Time in Dollywood
• 06:06 – Ashley reads her book dedication
• 07:26 – Discussion on writing “unlikable” female characters
• 09:33 – Defining Eve as a millennial and nostalgia in the character
• 15:22 – TV characters that influenced Eve (and Ashley)
• 17:49 – Symbolism behind the protagonist’s name, “Eve”
• 19:43 – Why Ashley chose a miscarriage as the genesis of the novel
• 21:20 – Societal pressures and the “clock” of motherhood
• 28:19 – Ashley’s experience as a Lit Up fellow and mentorship with Jasmine Guillory
• 32:19 – Music’s role in Ashley’s writing (and Cranes in the Sky as a book theme song)
• 34:29 – Fanfiction roots and reader participation
• 38:33 – Hopes for next book, focused on Maya and Siobhan
• 39:34 – “Bookmarked This Week” – Ashley highlights the Black Romance Book Festival
• 40:11 – Speed Read rapid-fire book/literary Q&A

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“Speed Read” Highlights

(40:11–41:53)

• Trope Ashley would ban: Enemies to lovers ("If I’m your enemy, we are not falling in love.”)
• Trope she'll defend: Grumpy sunshine and forced proximity
• Book she wishes she’d written: An American Marriage by Tayari Jones
• Favorite book to gift: A Love Song for Ricky Wilde by Tia Williams
• Dream library neighbors: Abby and Menace
• Favorite Dolly song to cry to: "I Will Always Love You"
• Favorite Beyoncé song to dance to: “Tyrant”
• Page-to-screen adaptation: Pride and Prejudice (2005)
• Book she wishes she could read again for the first time: Beloved by Toni Morrison
• Book that shaped her worldview: The Color Purple by Alice Walker

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Tone & Style

• Warm, honest, deeply engaged with craft, keenly aware of both pop culture and literary tradition.
• Jordan speaks with humor, candid reflection, and an undercurrent of gratitude for her community—both personal and professional.

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Closing Thoughts

This episode is a celebration of messy new beginnings, millennial nostalgia, literary community, and complex, flawed women—on and off the page. Ashley Jordan’s insights invite readers and writers alike to own their mess, claim space for vulnerability, and manifest their dreams—even (especially) when they seem audacious.

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Selected and handpicked mentions, not directly content-related:

• Ashley’s favorite concerts and music influences, plus Breezy, pop-culture lit references kept the conversation lively.
• Rich commentary for both serious book lovers and fans of fun, inclusive conversations.

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For more, connect on Instagram @ReesesBookClub, or check out Reese’s Book Club picks via Apple Books.

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Transcript

[Ashley Jordan]

This is an I Heart Podcast.

[Danielle Robe]

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[Ashley Jordan]

Uh huh.

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[Danielle Robe]

Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club is presented by Apple Books. Hi, I'm Danielle Robe and welcome to Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club. Okay, so remember when we first Met Ashley Jordan earlier this month, author of our August pick, Once Upon a Time in Dollywood. We were instantly obsessed. Her humor was sharp and a little twisted, the way I like it. Her pop culture recall was 10 out of 10. And the way she saw the world was thoughtful, layered, even surprising. And now that we've all devoured her book, we can't wait to get into all the juicy details. So here's a little refresher.

[Ashley Jordan]

So my main character, Eve, is fresh off of a breakup, and she is estranged from her parents as well. And so she is going to Tennessee, to Dollywood, basically, to go to her grandmother's house. And supposedly she's there to write. She's a playwright, and she wants to write her next play, and she's going there. She's pretending she's not having, like, a total life meltdown, but she is. And so her cover story gets kind of complicated by. By the guy next door. His name is Jamie Gallagher. And, you know, he's this handsome, sunshiny single dad, and he really throws all her plans for a loop. She wanted to be alone, and he's like, no, you don't. So they kind of fall in, like. And then they eventually fall in love. This is a romance, so that's not a spoiler. And this is all much to each chagrin. I would call this a grumpy sunshine pairing, but she's the grumpy one. And basically, what starts as a fling really turns into something much deeper. And what happens is they have a lot of baggage, they have a lot of scars, and so they are emotionally exhausted and kind of exhausting. But if they can just sort of stop overthinking, they can figure out how to have their happily ever after.

[Danielle Robe]

So whether you came for the Beyonce references, the Dolly sparkle, or just to revel in the beautiful chaos of being human, you're in the right place. Let's turn the page with Ashley Jordan. Ashley, welcome back to the club.

[Ashley Jordan]

Thank you so much for having me again.

[Danielle Robe]

Honestly, I missed you. You were so much fun last time we talked. I did ask you an impossible question about Beyonce and Dolly, so I'm not gonna do that again to you.

[Ashley Jordan]

Thank you.

[Danielle Robe]

But I do wanna know, if this book was a Dolly song, which would it be?

[Ashley Jordan]

Oh, okay. So I might be saying this. Cause this is probably my favorite Dalle song. But Little Sparrow, I think, is a gorgeous song. It is so haunting in a good way, but it's also about the pain and the heartbreak and learning to fly above it. And I think that it represents Dollywood and Once Upon a Time in Dollywood in a really good way.

[Danielle Robe]

It's also moody and intimate and authentic the way that your writing is.

[Ashley Jordan]

That's such a nice compliment.

[Danielle Robe]

It's true.

[Ashley Jordan]

Thank you.

[Danielle Robe]

The first thing I do when I open a book is I turn to the dedication. And sometimes people skip over it, but I feel as if a writer's dedication is like their Oscars speech. Have you been thinking about your book dedication for years?

[Ashley Jordan]

No. I thought about my acknowledgments for a very long time. Like, I wrote them before I ever had a book deal. But the dedication just sort of came to me one day and I was very happy with it. It's sort of like the introduction to the acknowledgment. So in a way, I had. It had been you know, ruminating. But, yeah, it was the acknowledgments I like. This has to be perfect.

[Danielle Robe]

I love that you wrote them years ahead of your book. And that means you really didn't forget to thank anybody.

[Ashley Jordan]

Well, I hope not.

[Danielle Robe]

I hope not too.

[Ashley Jordan]

I guess we'll find out.

[Danielle Robe]

Would you do me the great honor of reading your dedication for me?

[Ashley Jordan]

Oh, yeah, sure. So it goes to all the black girls and women mistaken for difficult when they just needed to be seen. And to the village of black women who not only raised me, but lifted me. Mom, Portland, Stephanie, Brenda, Wylene, Janet, Annie, Ruth, Lula, Ruby, Jean, Phyllis, Stephanie, Diane, Anita, Barbara, Shirley, Sanini, and Ms. Hattie. I love you.

[Danielle Robe]

The I love you is really powerful. Why did you add that?

[Ashley Jordan]

You know what? I think my mom told me to add it. I believe that I was dedicating it to them. And then she's like, I think you need a little something extra there just to, you know, add a finer point to it. And so I added that because it is the love of this village of women who made sure I made it to this point. So I thought it's important to say, yeah, these are my grandma Hazels. And so thank you. I love you.

[Danielle Robe]

Well, I think that your dedication almost sets the stage for an important part of your main character, Eve, because she's a little sharp edged and she's definitely hard to get to know. And sometimes the decisions she makes in the book. You're shaking her. You really are.

[Ashley Jordan]

I know.

[Danielle Robe]

What is the trick to writing a main character? That we want to hug and shake by the shoulders at the same time.

[Ashley Jordan]

This is something I discussed a lot with my agent and my editor because I remember when I first started querying the book. A couple of agents were like, well, she's unlikable, and I'm not really interested. And I'm like, well, why can't she be unlikable? She's going through something harrowing. She has a really difficult past. And I think it's really important that we let women be unlikable, especially when they have reason to. But even if they don't have reason to be, let's just be flawed and complicated and mean if we need to be. And still, you know, she has those vulnerable parts of her that she eventually, very eventually shows to Jamie. And I think that it was important to start out showing that there's a reason that she's like this. That was very important to my agent. Yeah. Just sort of letting readers understand what her journey is and that she's not just like this because she wants to be. She is really hurting and healing. The only way out of this is through, but she has to figure that out for herself.

[Danielle Robe]

On page 82, you write like a flower trying to blossom. I think that sort of sums it up. The trying part.

[Ashley Jordan]

Yes.

[Danielle Robe]

Is there anything you can point to that really showcases how you let her be messy without making us give up on her?

[Ashley Jordan]

I think, or at least I hope that the opening where she just sort of walks out on her fiance and her parents, and she says, you know, I'm running for my life here. I hope that that really explains what she's doing. She's not trying to be messy, but it is messy to just kind of get up and leave. But she needs to. She can't take this. It feels like the walls are closing in on her. And I think a lot of people can probably relate to that moment where you just want to give up. A lot of us can't. A lot of us don't have our grandmother's house to run away to. Money doesn't work that way, you know, but for her, it was possible, and so she did it, and she became better for it. So I hope that that made sense to readers.

[Danielle Robe]

It made sense to me. I was looking on your website, and you really talk about being a proud millennial, which really made me laugh.

[Ashley Jordan]

They try to make fun of us, but I don't care. I am one and I love it.

[Danielle Robe]

I am one, too. Ashley, is there anything quintessentially millennial about Eve?

[Ashley Jordan]

She loves a Disney movie. Like, she references Ariel and all the Disney girls, and part of her couldn't really embrace it because of all the things that happened when she was. But another part of her is like, this is ingrained in me and I believe I deserve this fairy tale, so why don't I have it? So, yeah, she's definitely a Disney millennial, and that part of her is definitely me.

[Danielle Robe]

That's interesting. I believe I should have this fairy tale. You know, tell me if you think this is right. Part of me feels like you get what you expect, so I don't know if it's so bad to think that.

[Ashley Jordan]

I totally agree. I think it's hard to parse because sometimes you're like, am I asking for too much? Am I being delusional? But also no, because, you know, I went through this journey and a lot of the things that I said I wanted, like being a Reese's Book Club author, somehow is happening. So, yes, you manifest your destiny. I really do believe that. And so, yes, wanting that fairy tale, even if you don't feel like you deserve it. I think that's how Eve ended up where she did.

[Danielle Robe]

I'm gonna get really woo woo on you, but I was talking to someone the other day about beliefs versus expectations and I was thinking maybe that was the unlock to some of my issues with manifestation. Because I do think you get what you expect. You don't have to believe you deserve it, you just have to expect it.

[Ashley Jordan]

And I feel like women are conditioned not to expect things, and so it's hard to do that. It's hard to really feel like this is what I want, this is what I expect. But yes, I think that it's powerful because then you put yourself in positions to get there.

[Danielle Robe]

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[Danielle Robe]

Part of the fun for me in reading the book was that your character Eve also loves Beyonce. And last time we talked, we talked about Mad Men. There's a reference to that there. Housewives, Living Single, even Always Sunny in Philadelphia, which I loved when I was in college. You also quote a Nene Leakes line, which I love.

[Ashley Jordan]

Do you remember about the white refrigerator? Absolutely.

[Danielle Robe]

Yep. Exactly. So I know that you're obviously a big fan of some of the shows that you cited. Did any of the TV show characters that you've watched or watched now influence the way you wrote Eve?

[Ashley Jordan]

Yes, I would say she is, definitely. Again, because I am. She is Molly Carter from Insecure, for sure. So many issues. And also a little bit of Nora Durst from the Leftovers.

[Danielle Robe]

Wow. What's that corny line? So many issues. Like a box of tissues. What did I just make up?

[Ashley Jordan]

I say she's got more issues than both.

[Danielle Robe]

Oh, that's way better than what I just made up in my brain. Okay, so on the surface, there are a few similarities between you and Eve. We talked about them a little bit. You were both born in New York. You both went to Spelman College. You're both writers. What other parts of yourself did you infuse into Eve?

[Ashley Jordan]

So I did not do this consciously, I don't think, but I realized, especially as I was trying to get the book published, like, oh, I definitely have imposter syndrome, and my anxiety has stopped me from doing a lot of things I want to do. So, yeah, I definitely imbued Eve with those qualities, especially. I kind of worked through that with her and, like, in edits and everything. I understood her better as I was trying to get this book published, and when people started saying they liked it and somebody was going to buy it, it was like, when am I going to wake up from this? Because it doesn't sound real, and I'm just waiting for the other shoe to drop and wake up or whatever. So, yeah, I definitely feel like those parts of Eve are especially me, and. And I just kind of leaned into it after I realized that's what I was doing.

[Danielle Robe]

Did you have to draw any hard line between the two of you?

[Ashley Jordan]

Not really. I don't have the same baggage exactly that Eve has, especially from when she was a teenager. So those were parts that I just sort of leaned into. Not really. Knowing and using my imagination more than anything. But no, I wasn't like, I have to stop because she's too close to me. No, I was fine with that. I enjoyed that. It was a little bit of catharsis to say, hey, you're a mess, too. Put it on the page. Yeah.

[Danielle Robe]

Especially during the time that you wrote it, right? During the pandemic.

[Ashley Jordan]

Yes. Oh, my goodness. There was so much grief and sadness. Jamie and Eve were like the vessels. I needed to say everything I wanted to.

[Danielle Robe]

It's really interesting you use the word vessel, because I was thinking about the symbolism that the name Eve carries. The first woman, fresh starts, temptation, reinvention, even. And the first chapter you titled Unoriginal sin.

[Ashley Jordan]

Yes.

[Danielle Robe]

Why did you choose Eve as the name for your protagonist?

[Ashley Jordan]

For those reasons, really. I mean, firstly. Cause her parents are very religious, obviously. And I just thought the name really made sense for someone who was navigating what Eve was. She's dealing with so much guilt, this desire to sort of carve her own path outside of what's been expected of her. The way she walks away from her life is a bit of a fall from grace, in a way. But she's not punished for it. I think in the end, she receives a reward for doing that. That's where they converge. But I think that it was definitely a conscious decision to choose that as her name and take her on that journey that I did.

[Danielle Robe]

I also noticed that Jamie has long hair and a beard and is a carpenter.

[Ashley Jordan]

He is.

[Danielle Robe]

Why are you giggling?

[Ashley Jordan]

I know where you're going. I don't know if I took it out, but there was a reference to him being like Jesus, but it was not conscious at all when I was building the character. It just. I mean, he's not perfect. He has a lot of his own issues, but he was perfect for Eve, I thought. And I thought it was really important to give her that sort of. I mean, he's almost like a biblical figure because he's her road to healing. And I think that, you know, his gentleness with her and his grace with her felt almost like pastoral in a way. And I wanted that for her. I really wanted her to have a soft space for her to land. And so while it wasn't a conscious biblical reference, it ended up being one.

[Danielle Robe]

Now I'm giggling because we're talking about how you're inspired by Mad Men and all these TV shows. You were inspired by the Bible?

[Ashley Jordan]

I was. The Bible inspires so much, honestly. So, yes, that makes sense.

[Danielle Robe]

The first book ever. So your protagonist Our reluctant heroine is named Eve. And the inciting incident of the book has to do with motherhood. It's a miscarriage. And that was obviously a very intentional choice because that is the inciting incident. That's what sets off the rest of the story. Why was that your first plot point?

[Ashley Jordan]

Again, this is me, like, inserting myself. And I think a lot of women deal with this, especially once we reach our 30s, is, what do we want our lives to look like? Do we want motherhood? Do we believe in, you know, this idea of whatever society believes we should be? Is that what we actually want? And so as I struggle with it myself, and I think probably all my books will delve into that in some way. But I really wanted, for her, having been through this as a teenager and going through this now, have to delve into, what does she actually want? Does she actually want to be a mother? Or is she doing this because she feels like it was taken from her? And so I thought that was just one of many important conversations about women and motherhood.

[Danielle Robe]

What do I actually want? It's such a hard question.

[Ashley Jordan]

Yeah.

[Danielle Robe]

To actually answer.

[Ashley Jordan]

What is society telling me I want? And what do I actually.

[Danielle Robe]

I froze my eggs a few years ago. I never knew if I wanted to be a mother. I didn't have an answer one way or the other. And going through that process for the first time, thought I'd be really upset if this didn't work. I think I really want this. Have you had a moment in your life, whether it's motherhood or something separate, that really clarified what you were wanting?

[Ashley Jordan]

I think yes. And it's funny, I immediately thought of Friends, you know, when Rachel was, like, hiding her pregnancy and realized she was actually pregnant. Like, I really wanted this because Stevie was trying to trick her. And, yeah, I've had that moment, actually, where it's like, you know, miscarriages are very common. And so when that's happened, it's like, oh, I did want this. I wasn't sure before, and now actually, yeah, that would have been nice. But now I'm just like, maybe it wouldn't have been like, look at the world. I don't know.

[Danielle Robe]

Right.

[Ashley Jordan]

It's really hard to say. I think at our core, a lot of us with just, like, the option and so many people it's taken away from. And, like, with Eve, she wants it because it's been taken from her. And so that whole exploration of the idea of motherhood, I think, is super interesting because you get such a small window to do it. It's not like you can wait your whole life and say, okay, I'm ready now. It's like, clock is ticking. Figure it out. Women have it hard.

[Danielle Robe]

And the clock is loud.

[Ashley Jordan]

It's so loud.

[Danielle Robe]

So, Ashley, when we talked at the beginning of the month, you said you love to write breakups and you love to write angst. And there's this Don Draper quote that you reference in your book, actually. He says, what is happiness? It's a moment before you need more happiness.

[Ashley Jordan]

That's such a good line.

[Danielle Robe]

It is such a good line. But it feels like a callback, actually, to the title of your book, Once Upon a Time in Dollywood. Because it's like this moment in time before things fall apart for her where she says it.

[Ashley Jordan]

Yes.

[Danielle Robe]

And so Dollywood is absolutely perfect.

[Ashley Jordan]

Yes.

[Danielle Robe]

And I felt like there was this juxtaposition or almost like. What's the term? Like you were telling us something.

[Ashley Jordan]

A little bit of foreshadowing.

[Danielle Robe]

That's the word, foreshadowing. Thank you to my English teacher of sixth grade.

[Ashley Jordan]

She's so proud.

[Danielle Robe]

Oh, my God.

[Ashley Jordan]

I think it's just generally true. Like, the reason it resonates is because when are you ever satisfied? Shout out to Hamilton. You have these moments where you're very happy. And then all of a sudden, it's like, well, I'm not happy anymore. It was not like John Draper says, it's a moment before you need more happiness when that stuff happens. She's not through her journey yet, so she very much believes. Oh, you know what? At Dollywood, I was almost happy. I was so close to it, and I didn't quite get there. And then, you know, she has to figure out that you have to make your own happiness. And it's not. It can't be just a moment. It has to be a state of mind. I think.

[Danielle Robe]

Yeah. I'd never really thought about it just being a moment. Cause we are constantly chasing that.

[Ashley Jordan]

Mm.

[Danielle Robe]

Some of this is really heavy stuff. Did you do anything to take care of yourself while you were writing?

[Ashley Jordan]

No, as I said, I was in school while I was writing it, and it was really stressful. I mean, and I didn't have to do it. I didn't have to go to school either. I just decided I needed a distraction. And I think that both of those things were really great at keeping me away from the heaviness of the pandemic. So they kind of were my safe place, my self care. It was hard to write sometimes, and it was hard to do it at the same time as having an assignment due. But I think it was really good for me and good for my state of mind because I work in public health as well and so the pandemic was very hard. And yeah, so they were my escape routes from that and just sort of detaching from the hard parts that were happening in real life.

[Danielle Robe]

Did you sleep?

[Ashley Jordan]

No. I don't remember sleeping. I know, yeah, I just imagine you.

[Danielle Robe]

Writing furiously with a mask on. Okay, that's wild. Apple Books is the best place to read, listen to or discover the books you love without a subscription right on your iPhone. And now there's a very exciting heads up for listeners. Apple Books is the official audiobook and ebook home for Reese's Book Club, so it's easier than ever to explore each monthly book pick, plus author curated collections and more all in one place. Open the Apple Books app to explore a world of books and audiobooks. You can set goals and track your reading progress. Get great recommendations for your next read or listen and enjoy it all on the go, wherever you are. You can even share your books with up to five family members at no cost. Again, no subscription required. Visit Apple co reeseapplebooks to find out more. That's Apple co reeseapplebooks and read or listen to Reese's current Pick and browse past selections today on Apple Books.

[Ryan Seacrest]

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[Danielle Robe]

Today's episode is brought to you by Cotton we spend a lot of time with stories, hours curled up with dynamic plots and with characters who feel like friends. What if the story isn't just in your hands but also in the world around you, in the fabric that's holding you close? Cotton is that timeless companion. Soft sheets for lazy weekend mornings with a book. Breezy dresses for afternoons spent reading in the backyard. It's the fabric that can be tossed in the wash without fuss. It's about ease, comfort and caring for yourself and the planet. Just like the books we cherish, cotton weaves meaning into our everyday moments. Moments like following four adult daughters as they navigate love, Loss and the Legacy in the Most Fun We Ever had by Claire Lombardo all while curled up in soft cotton joggers or sinking into the island of Missing Trees by Elif Shafak A story that spans generations, forbidden love and a fig tree that remembers everything wrapped in a hand stitched quilt, each thread holding its own kind of memory. Next time you settle in for a chapter, slip into something cotton not just to read the story, but to feel it. Cotton the fabric of our lives. Learn more at thefabricofourlives.com.

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[Danielle Robe]

I was so excited to learn that you were actually a lit UP fellow in 2023.

[Ashley Jordan]

Yes.

[Danielle Robe]

Now you're a Reese's Book Club pick.

[Ashley Jordan]

Yes.

[Danielle Robe]

What did you get from your lit up experience?

[Ashley Jordan]

Oh my goodness, so much. Mainly a book that could be published. But I think the most important thing was really the people that I met. I mean my mentor was Jasmine Guillory, which still is crazy. One of those things that I manifested because they asked me who do you want your mentor to be? And I said oh, maybe this isn't going to happen, but maybe Bolu Babalola or Jasmine Guillory. And and they're like okay. They didn't say anything. They're just like okay, thanks for letting us know. And the next thing I know I got an email from Jasmine. So manifesting works.

[Danielle Robe]

Ashley I call those magical emails.

[Ashley Jordan]

Oh God yes.

[Danielle Robe]

That's so exciting.

[Ashley Jordan]

It was. And on top of the mentorship. You know, obviously, there are five people in your cohort, and we came away with, like, this really beautiful friendship where we support each other constantly. I am so grateful that all five of us got book deals. We're in the middle of it, and we help each other through everything. And on top of that, the other girls from the other cohorts are amazing. And we're all kind of going through this publishing thing together and learning. And it has just been very important if you're going to enter publishing, that you have a village of supporters, obviously your family and friends, but also people who understand the publishing industry. So having that has just been invaluable.

[Danielle Robe]

That's so cool to hear. You know, the first time I ever met Reese Witherspoon, I hugged her and I thanked her and I said, you gave me a home in Los Angeles. Because I had never felt community the way I do. Getting to be at hello Sunshine. Yeah, that's what I'm hearing from you is like, it gave you these people to be in it with. It's so underestimated.

[Ashley Jordan]

Yes. You can't really know until you're in it that publishing is such a lonely industry because nobody outside of it really knows what's going on. They think that, you know, if you publish a book, you just put it up on Amazon or something, and writing's.

[Danielle Robe]

Not a team sport.

[Ashley Jordan]

It's not. It's very lonely. And so once you get into this process where you get to make it like a team effort and, you know, obviously my agent and my editor are part of my village as well, but, yeah, those peers that really understand what you're going through and can give you advice and all that, it is. It's amazing.

[Danielle Robe]

I had the opportunity to interview Jasmine at the very first Shine Away event two years ago. What I love, well, amongst the many things I like about her, including her books, she was an attorney before she became a writer, and she makes it seem like it's possible for anybody who has a story on their heart. Is there anything in particular she said to you that made you feel like your dream was possible?

[Ashley Jordan]

It was pretty much exactly that. I mean, I, like, I said I wrote this during the pandemic, and I had queried it and little bit of success, but I wasn't quite finding what I was looking for. And I wasn't sure if this book had a place in when I got into Lit Up. Obviously, that buoyed my confidence a lot. And what Jasmine specifically said was, it's great as is. I was worried There weren't big enough stakes, or it was just maybe too quiet. It wasn't hooky enough or anything like that. And she said, no, that's what it should be. The confidence she gave me in my book really allowed me to pursue publishing further. Cause I really, like, right before I got into Lit Up, I was like, I'm just ready to give up. I'm tired of querying this book. I'm tired of this book. I was just ready to let it go. And then lit up said, cause I applied the first year and didn't get in. And so the second year, they were like, hey, we know you applied. If you still aren't agented, feel free to apply again. And I said, well, I've revised it, so sure. Here, take it. And I got in somehow. So don't give up on your dreams.

[Danielle Robe]

I didn't realize that. Ashley. Yeah, this really was fated for you.

[Ashley Jordan]

I really feel like this. Yeah.

[Danielle Robe]

The title lends itself to Dolly Parton, obviously. And we talked about Beyonce. And on your website, you say that you love Lauryn Hill, who's my favorite artist of all time.

[Ashley Jordan]

How is it she did that with one album just like.

[Danielle Robe]

And she's still singing it?

[Ashley Jordan]

Yeah, she should be. It's a perfect album.

[Danielle Robe]

When I write, I cannot even an email. I cannot have any music on in the background. What's the role of music when you're writing?

[Ashley Jordan]

I can have music. I can't have music with lyrics. So I usually just listen to, like, classical music or the Succession soundtrack. But I think music is, in general, just a very big inspiration. As I mentioned, I wrote fan fiction for the Walking Dead. And probably the best and worst idea I ever did was when Lemonade came out. I created a fan fiction story using Lemonade as the vehicle to write this crazy story about my favorite fictional couple. And it's really why I'm here today, because somebody from buzzfeed read it, and she was like, you should really try to pursue writing. And I'm like, girl, bye. But then I was like, you know what? Maybe she was right. So, yeah, that's like my origin story. I think music is like that. It just sort of inspired the words, the album. I was just talking to my mom about this. Albums are very much like books. You know, the songs are chapters. They tell a story. A really good album is a really good story. So I think that I use them in that way. They inspired me to write.

[Danielle Robe]

Was there a particular song or songs in general that you thought about when writing this story then?

[Ashley Jordan]

I don't think so. I mean, if there were a theme song for this book, it would be Cranes in the sky by Solange. When I was editing, I listened to that a lot. And really, the whole soundtrack, I love my little soundtrack, but I don't think anything in particular inspired me to first write it. It was just sort of, this is a story on my heart, and I want to get it out.

[Danielle Robe]

When you talk about this book starting as fan fiction, I was thinking about how participatory fanfiction is, and it really gets readers so excited. Like, you don't see Reddit threads about every book, but you do when it's fanfiction.

[Ashley Jordan]

This is true.

[Danielle Robe]

And Priya Parker wrote a piece about John Baptiste one time, and she said that his performances are so engaging because he doesn't perform. He requires participation. He's calling people in all the time. And even though it started as fan fiction, it's not anymore. When you look at the way you're marketing this book, there's a lot of elements that are still there. You're really calling people in. How did you think about that?

[Ashley Jordan]

That's really interesting. I didn't think about it in that way, but I think that you're absolutely right, that those bones are there. Because when you are writing fanfiction, you are posting usually one chapter at a time and getting feedback. And I have set my readers many times with this book. It was very different and much longer. It was like 200,000 words. But, yeah, I think that when I was writing it, I wrote with those sort of comments in mind, like, okay, don't do this, because this will piss them off. Or they like this, maybe keep those threads there. But yeah, I think that when you're marketing, you are also kind of thinking in the same way. What do people respond to? What did fan fiction readers respond to when I was doing that? And so I didn't realize I was doing that, but you're right. So they're always in my mind. They're the reason I'm here. So.

[Danielle Robe]

So when you're writing, are you asking yourself a question? And I'll give you an example. When we're producing this show, we constantly ask ourselves, what is the audience getting out of this? Is there something that you're asking yourself?

[Ashley Jordan]

Not in the middle of, like, writing a chapter, but when I'm, you know, editing and rereading the book. Cause it's really hard to keep in perspective that you've read this 800 times. So I have to ask myself, someone who's never read this book. Is it going to be useful to them, good to them? Is this writing going to resonate with them? Because at this point, I hate this book. Not really, but, yeah. I think when you are in the throes of editing and reading your book over and over and over again, you have to ask yourself, okay, if I'm a reader who's never read your work before, what is this saying to them?

[Danielle Robe]

Okay, so usually in every bookmarked conversation, I admit one thing that I feel embarrassed to admit. And here is my time. Are you ready?

[Ashley Jordan]

I'm ready.

[Danielle Robe]

I saw my very first Beyonce show this summer. I saw Cowboy Carter.

[Ashley Jordan]

You don't have to be embarrassed. That's an amazing first Beyonce show. But also, it's not easy. Like, she goes to stadiums, which are. I hate. And, you know, they're expensive, so nothing to be ashamed of. But I'm very happy that this was your first Beyonce experience.

[Danielle Robe]

Well, I got so lucky. My friend Ally Love, whose peloton instructor took me.

[Ashley Jordan]

Oh, yeah.

[Danielle Robe]

And she can really dance. So, like, I'm having fun with her. I'm having fun watching. And on the way home, we're talking about all of the Beyonce shows and trying to rate them. It's hard to do.

[Ashley Jordan]

Oh, God.

[Danielle Robe]

So I'm about to ask you, as somebody, who is the Beyonce fan? How would you rank the tours? Okay, so you're bracing yourself.

[Ashley Jordan]

I really am.

[Danielle Robe]

This is the most important question I've asked you.

[Ashley Jordan]

It might be the most important question I've ever been asked. I reserve the right to change my mind. This is right now, in this moment. This will be my answer. Oh, my God. I think Renaissance is first because it was right after the pandemic, and it was a very specific concoction of joy and queerness. And just, like, it was just right place, right time, amazing show. Like, you know, when she does the Renaissance section of Cowboy Carter, the audience goes crazy because Renaissance was amazing. I think Cowboy Carter and Formation are right after that. Like, I don't like stadiums, but she puts on an amazing stadium show, so the production just. Lemonade's my favorite album right now, so Formation is always gonna be way up there for me. But Cowboy Carter was incredible. I've seen it for four times now. I'm sad it's over, but hopefully it'll come out on something. She never gave us Formation, which I'm very upset about.

[Danielle Robe]

I think you spent your entire book advance on Beyonce tickets.

[Ashley Jordan]

Basically. But it was worth it.

[Danielle Robe]

So Millennial.

[Ashley Jordan]

Exactly. I told you I was millennial. And then after that, let's see. I think I just basically go backwards in order because she just sort of evolves with every album. So Mrs. Carter and then I am Beyonce Experience. And then dangerously in lab. I hope I didn't miss anything. Don't come at me, Beehive.

[Danielle Robe]

That was great. You have a two book deal and we've been talking a lot about manifesting. What are you manifesting? What are you calling in next?

[Ashley Jordan]

I would like to. I don't know if it's going to work out because I'm kind of having trouble with what exactly the story is going to be, but I would really love to write something about Eve's best friend, Maya and her fiance Siobhan. Me and my publisher are like trying to figure it out right now. And so we'll see what happens. If it's not this book, then maybe some other book. Cause I would like to revisit them and revisit Eve and Jamie through them. So I think that would be great.

[Danielle Robe]

What about them are particularly interesting to you right now?

[Ashley Jordan]

Well, they have been together since college. I would like to perhaps in a maybe eliminate sort of way, go back through their history and see where they've been and how they got to this place that they are now.

[Danielle Robe]

That's cool. Okay, this is my final question. Ashley, I love asking our guests what they've bookmarked this week. It can be a weird fact, a fun quote, something you've saved on Instagram, something you texted your best friend about. What have you bookmarked this week?

[Ashley Jordan]

I bookmarked, actually today, the Black Romance Book Festival, which is in Atlanta, which I absolutely love. I told you, we have a good history of festivals and it celebrates romance, which we need to do more of. So it'll be in Atlanta next year. And I'm waiting impatiently because they sold out really fast last year. So I'm waiting for those tickets to go on sale and so I can attend, which I'm very excited about.

[Danielle Robe]

So we're coming up on the end of our conversation, which means it's time for speed read. So here's how it works. We're putting 60 seconds on the clock and we're going to see how many rapid fire literary questions you can get through. Are you ready?

[Ashley Jordan]

I am ready.

[Danielle Robe]

Okay. Three, two. What's one literary trope you would ban forever?

[Ashley Jordan]

Please don't cancel me. But I do not like enemies to lovers. Like, if I'm your enemy, we are not falling in love.

[Danielle Robe]

That's a popular one.

[Ashley Jordan]

I know. I'm sorry. I hate It.

[Danielle Robe]

What's one that you'll defend with your life?

[Ashley Jordan]

Grumpy sunshine and forced proximity.

[Danielle Robe]

My parents are grumpy sunshine.

[Ashley Jordan]

Oh, really?

[Danielle Robe]

I love that. What's a book you wish you'd written?

[Ashley Jordan]

Ooh, that's such a good one. An American Marriage by Tayari Jones. Probably my favorite book of all time.

[Danielle Robe]

What's your favorite book to recommend that one? What's your favorite book to gift?

[Ashley Jordan]

A love song for Ricky Wilde by Tia Williams. I love that one. It's so good.

[Danielle Robe]

Your book is on the shelf at a local bookstore in Atlanta. Who are you shelved in between?

[Ashley Jordan]

I actually thought about this before because I was writing something to her, but I feel like I would be next to Abby and Menace because of our names, and I hope I would be.

[Danielle Robe]

It's like school roll call.

[Ashley Jordan]

Yeah.

[Danielle Robe]

What's your favorite dolly song to cry to?

[Ashley Jordan]

This is obviously Whitney made it hers. But I will always love you ball. Every time.

[Danielle Robe]

Yes. Favorite Beyonce song to dance to?

[Ashley Jordan]

I'm gonna go with one today. Tyrant.

[Danielle Robe]

What's your favorite page to screen adaptation?

[Ashley Jordan]

Ooh. Pride and Prejudice 2005.

[Danielle Robe]

What's a book you wish you could read again for the first time?

[Ashley Jordan]

Beloved by Toni Morrison.

[Danielle Robe]

Ooh, I just finished that one a few weeks ago for the first time.

[Ashley Jordan]

Oh, I'm jealous. Yeah, I wish I could read that again for the first time.

[Danielle Robe]

It was amazing. Okay, last one. What is a book that shaped the way you see the world?

[Ashley Jordan]

The color Purple. I think that. Yeah, I see myself. I see my mom. I see my grandmother in it. Yeah, that's definitely the one.

[Danielle Robe]

Ashley, this was such a wonderful conversation.

[Ashley Jordan]

It was.

[Danielle Robe]

You are as literary as you are fun. It was, like, so great to talk pop culture and books with you. Thank you so much for your time and just a huge congratulations. I'm really excited for all your success.

[Ashley Jordan]

Thank you so much. This was amazing. You made this so easy, and I really appreciate it. And thank you for the compliment. I really appreciate that, too.

[Danielle Robe]

Before we go, we're bringing you something new. Okay. A little literary bonus just for bookmarked listeners. We're calling it Turn up the Story. Every month, we're teaming up with the editors at Apple Books to spotlight one of their favorite debut novels. These are fresh voices with unforgettable stories, and they're handpicked with this audience in mind. This month, their pick is the Hounding by Zenaby Purvis. The Hounding is eerie in the best way. Clever, gothic, and a little bit defiant. It follows five sisters living in an 18th century village, where conforming to social norms isn't exactly their strong suit. But things take a turn when rumors begin to swirl. Accusations of supernatural power, whispers of something darker, and suddenly the sisters are forced to confront what's more dangerous, the stories people tell about them or the truths that they keep for themselves. This novel blends atmosphere with social commentary and and Purvis has a style that'll wrap you in a fog and keep you there. If you love Shirley Jackson or the Essex Serpent, or if you just want something moody and brilliant to listen to, you'll want to spend a little time with this one. For a limited time, you can get the audiobook of the hounding for just $9.99 only on Apple Books. And if you're curious about what inspired Xenobie Purvis to write this haunting debut, you'll find that too. Head to Apple Co debutlistens to listen in. And while you're there, don't miss the full collection of debut audiobooks that the Apple Books editors love, all chosen with bookmarked listeners in mind. Happy listening and we'll see you next time. And if you want a little bit more from us, come hang with us on socials. We're at Reese's Book Club on Instagram serving up books, vibes and behind the scenes magic and I'mrobe R O B A Y Come say hi and DM me. And if you want to go 90s on us, call us. Okay, Our phone line is open, so call now at 1-501291-3379. That's 1-501-291-3379. Share your literary hot takes Book recommendations, questions about the monthly pick or let us know what you think about the episode you just heard. And who knows, you might just hear yourself in our next episode. So don't be shy, give us a ring. And of course, make sure to follow Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your shows. Until then, see you in the next chapter. Bookmarked is a production of hello Sunshine and iheart Podcast Acast. It's executive produced by Reese Witherspoon and me, Danielle Roubaix. Production is by Acast Creative Studios. Our producers are Maddie Foley, Brittany Martinez, Sarah Schleed and Darby Masters. Our production assistant is Avery Loftus. Jenny Kaplan and Emily Rutter are the executive producers for Acast Creative Studios. Maureen Polo and Reese Witherspoon are the executive producers for hello Sunshine. Olga Kaminwa, Kristin Perla, Kelly Turner and Ashley Rapaport are associate producers for Reese's Book Club, Ally Perry and Lauren Hanson are the executive producers for iHeart podcasts, and Tim Palazzola is our showrunner. Apple Books is the best way to read or listen to the books you love without a subscription right on your iPhone and a heads up for listeners. Apple Books is the official audiobook and ebook home for Reese's Book Club so you can discover every exciting pick plus author curated collections and more all in one place. Open the Apple Books app to explore a world of books and audiobooks. You can set and track your reading goals and get great recommendations for your next read or listen again, no subscription required. Visit Apple co Reese that's R E E S E Apple Books to find out more. Today's episode is brought to you by Cotton we spend a lot of time with stories, hours curled up with dynamic plots and characters who feel like friends. What if the story isn't just in your hands but also in the world around you? In the fabric that's holding you close? Cotton is that timeless companion. Soft sheets for a lazy weekend morning with a book. Breezy dresses for afternoons spent reading in the backyard. It's the fabric that can be tossed in the wash without fuss. It's about ease, comfort and caring for yourself and the planet. Just like books we cherish, cotton leaves meaning into everyday moments. Next time you settle in for a chapter, slip into something cotton not just to read the story, but to feel it. Cotton the fabric of our lives. Learn more at thefabricofourlives.com hey, it's Ryan.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Seacrest for Albertsons and Safeway. It is hot out there this summer, right? But don't sweat it. We got tons of ways to save on your family's favorite personal care items to keep yourself feeling cool and smelling good. Now through September 9th, earn four times points when you shop for items from your favorite brands like Right Guard Raw Sugar, Dove Soft Soap and Olay. Then use your points for discounts on groceries or gas on future purchases. Offer end September 9th. Restrictions apply. Offers may vary. Visit albertsons or safeway.com for more details.

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[Danielle Robe]

Uh huh.

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[Ashley Jordan]

Of course.

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Insight into your neighbor's divorce? We're working on it. Homes.com. we've done your homework.

[Ashley Jordan]

This is an iHeart podcast.