The Mysteries Behind the February Reese's Book Club Pick with Author Philippa Malicka

Summary

---

Bookmarked by Reese’s Book Club

The Mysteries Behind the February Reese's Book Club Pick with Author Philippa Malicka

Host: Danielle Robay
Guest: Philippa Malicka, author of In Her Defense
Date: February 24, 2026

---

Episode Overview

This episode features a deep dive into In Her Defense, the debut psychological thriller by Philippa Malicka, Reese’s Book Club’s February pick. Host Danielle Robay and Malicka explore the book’s tangled web of truth, memory, mother-daughter relationships, and the psychological underpinnings that make it a “scary place within our own minds.” They discuss Malicka’s writing journey, craft insights, the book’s ambiguous characters, and literary inspirations, while offering personal reflections and behind-the-scenes stories.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Malicka’s Journey to Authorship

• Origins in Academia:
  Malicka began writing In Her Defense during her master’s in prose fiction, seeking structure and validation through an MA after being rejected her first year.
  Quote:
  “You know that thing when you want something so much, you’re kind of deaf to people saying no.” (03:55, Philippa)

• The Role of Experimentation:
  The book’s initial chapters were written as part of her dissertation, with much time spent experimenting with narrative voice before settling on Gus as the central perspective.
  (04:35-05:06)

• Mentorship Impact:
  Ian Rankin mentored Malicka, encouraging her to embrace ambiguity in her characters and resist making family dynamics “perfect.”
  Quote:
  “He said, you know, it's got to be ambiguous whether this girl is better off with Jean or ... should she be back with her family? Don’t make the family... perfect.” (06:16, Philippa)

Writing Process & Craft

• Character-Driven Plot:
  Malicka’s process is rooted in character authenticity: plot arises from understanding "what they're searching for... what they're trying to heal."
  Quote:
  “If it’s not true for the character, then the plot doesn’t feel true and then it all starts to tumble down like a house of cards.” (08:01, Philippa)

• Character Building Techniques:
  She employs self-interrogation through long documents, detailed Q&A, and forces herself to answer even mundane questions about her characters to foster authenticity.
  (08:59-09:35)

• Stamina and Surprises:
  Writing In Her Defense required stamina, especially as she worked full time. Her characters, particularly Gus, often surprised her, leading to significant rewrites, especially in the ending.
  (09:48-10:38)

Reader Reactions & Character Complexity

• Releasing Characters into the World:
  Malicka finds it liberating to have readers interpret her characters, accepting their contradictions or flaws.
  Quote:
  “You can’t control what your readers are going to think... I just hope that they don’t get too frustrated with them when they don’t maybe act as straightforwardly as the reader might like.” (10:57-11:53)

• Ambiguity in Motives:
  Characters like Gussie (Gus) and Anna can be read through multiple lenses—malicious, lonely, grieving, or simply flawed, leading to varied and intimate interpretations among readers.
  (11:53-12:39)

Literary Influences & Epigraphs

• Epigraphs as Thematic Breadcrumbs:
  Malicka chose evocative quotes from Anne Carson, Kafka, and Emily Berry.
  Quote:
  “I almost think of them as breadcrumbs for the reader... Thematically, they're bigger than breadcrumbs – they’re probably like big sourdough loaves of bread.” (16:10-18:49, Philippa)

• Mother-Daughter Resonance:
  The mother-daughter motif from Carson’s The Glass Essay profoundly resonated with both Malicka and Robay, prompting reflections on their own maternal relationships and the theme of self-removal or estrangement.
  (20:42-21:17)

• Approach to Therapy in Fiction:
  Malicka discusses how therapy is often misunderstood by parents, and how her book subverts expectations—where therapy can both heal and harm, depending on the practitioner (Jean as the villainous therapist).
  (21:17-21:54)

Psychological Narratives & Memory

• Thrill From Unstable Memory:
  Rather than physical danger, In Her Defense draws psychological terror from unreliable memory and the ease with which false narratives can be implanted.
  Quote:
  “They are very, very… prone to contamination. Slippery like eels, you know… our sense of self is really flawed and in the wrong hands we can be led to believe totally different things about ourselves.” (22:17-23:44, Philippa)

Female Characters & Moral Complexity

• No True Villain or Heroine:
  Most major characters are flawed women—no one is fully heroic or likable, by design, embracing authenticity over likability.
  (24:10-25:43)

• Victim and Villain Duality:
  Everyone sees themselves as doing the right thing—even the antagonist Jean.
  Quote:
  “Jean, even though she's a villain, she's got a messiah complex. She honestly thinks that she's helping...” (26:42-27:28, Philippa)

• Pressure for Redemption:
  There was editorial pressure to make some characters warmer (notably Mary), but Malicka resisted “perfect victim” tropes.
  (25:49-26:19)

Authorial Self-Reflection & Thematic Resonances

• Personal Connections:
  Malicka admits parts of herself are in every character, especially Gus, whose “deep loneliness and desire to be seen” mirrors the author’s own creative frustrations.
  (27:50-29:17)

• Being Seen vs. Being Known:
  A central theme explores the difference between superficial visibility and deep understanding—a motif both in her novel and in the author’s and host’s personal lives.
  Quote:
  “Being known is being seen in three dimensions and accepted and actually loved for your flaws... these characters are yearning to be known.” (30:12-31:19, Philippa)

• Writing as Fear Antidote:
  Both host and guest reflect on creative ambition as a response to fear and loneliness—writing becomes a way of regaining control and spinning meaning from anxiety or trauma.
  (33:52-35:24)

Motherhood & Future Perspectives

• Changing Landscape:
  As an expectant mother, Malicka relates to the identity shift and ambiguity of parenting. She may have infused Anna with greater complexity had she written post-pregnancy.
  (39:42-42:48)

• Scorecards & Imperfection:
  The fear of children “scoring” their parents, and the continual process of learning as a parent, resonates with both the book’s themes and the author’s current stage of life.
  (41:12-42:18)

Endings, Afterlives & Speculation

• The Cliffhanger:
  The book’s open-ended conclusion invites speculation. Malicka envisions Mary forging tentative independence, Anna continuing her public performance, and Gus seeking healing—while Jean remains a perennial manipulator.
  (44:49-47:21)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “He wore this, like, brilliant black T-shirt… a bit like Hamlet, you know. He was just brilliant in these classes.” (05:59, Philippa on Ian Rankin)
• “The more I read about false memory syndrome… our sense of self is really flawed and in the wrong hands we can be led to believe totally different things about ourselves.” (22:17, Philippa)
• “Male British writers who use the word panties. I’m blushing.” (47:52, Philippa’s rapid-fire ‘ban forever’ answer)
• “I remain fascinated by where you go as a woman once you are a mother, and if you ever come back.” (39:42, Malicka quoting Rachel Cusk)

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Intro & Book Overview — [02:11]
• Malicka’s Writing Journey — [03:33–06:45]
• Mentorship with Ian Rankin — [05:59–06:45]
• Character Development Discussion — [08:01–09:35]
• On Surprises & Endings — [09:48–10:38]
• Reader Reactions & Interpretation — [10:57–12:25]
• Epigraphs Explained — [16:06–18:49]
• Therapy and Mother-Daughter Themes — [20:42–21:54]
• On Memory & Psychological Thrills — [22:17–23:44]
• Flawed Women, No Heroines — [24:10–25:43]
• Victim/Villain Duality — [43:15–44:49]
• Personal Parallels & Being Known — [30:12–32:21]
• Motherhood, Identity, and Fear — [39:42–42:48]
• Speculation on Characters’ Futures — [44:49–47:21]
• Speed Read (Rapid Fire Q&A) — [47:21–50:20]

---

"Speed Read" Rapid Fire Q&A Highlights ([47:21–50:20])

• Literary trope to ban: “Male British writers who use the word panties.” (47:52, Philippa)
• Trope to defend: “The kind of shadowy person that comes into your life and tells you truths about it.” (48:07, Philippa)
• Book she'd give her son: Dogger by Shirley Hughes, linking to childhood trauma over losing a beloved toy. (49:20, Philippa)
• Book shaping her worldview: The Secret History by Donna Tartt for its pioneering dark academia genre. (49:42, Philippa)
• Favorite love story: Birthday Letters by Ted Hughes, poems about Sylvia Plath. (50:05, Philippa)

---

Tone and Style

The conversation is candid, literary, and at times deeply personal. Both Danielle and Philippa embrace vulnerability and wit, balancing craft talk with philosophical questions about self, memory, and motherhood. The rapport is animated and inviting, with moments of laughter, thoughtful pauses, and emotional resonance.

---

For Listeners Who Haven't Read the Book

This episode provides rich insight into the creation of In Her Defense, the creative motivations behind its ambiguities, and an exploration of themes like psychological manipulation, female complexity, unreliable memory, and the desire to be both seen and known. Even without reading the novel, listeners gain a nuanced understanding of modern literary thriller craft – and inspiration for self-inquiry about truth, relationships, and the stories we tell ourselves.

---

Transcript

[A]

Recently I went on a trip to Panama with my dad. He took me on a little speedboat to the jungle and I got to see Titi monkeys. They were so cute and I dragged him to all the best restaurants. If you are planning any upcoming trips, you could be hosting your home on Airbnb. And now with the Co Host network you could hire a local co host to handle everything like managing reservations, guest communication and even styling your space. Find a co [e-mail] host I'm partnering with Simple Mills and I have now found a new go to reading snack. Simple Mills Almond Flour Crackers Think of this as a quick book style review because these crackers deserve it. The premise? A snack that feels light, not heavy. Made with almond flour, sunflower seeds and flaxseeds. Nutrient dense ingredients your body can use. Not empty carbs and the taste? Crunchy classic flavors that leave you feeling energized. For a good plot twist, try Pop Ems Cheesy, airy, poppable crackers packed with veggies. Final Verdict these are a shelf staple. Find simple meals at your grocery store. If you're struggling with weight loss, start your journey at loseweightnow Co. Because orderly meds helps people get real results with proven GLP1 semaglutide starting for as little as $74 a month. No waiting rooms, no confusion, just real support and guidance you can count on all year long. Get started today at loseweightnow co. Individual results may vary. Visit loseweightnow.co and get started today. That's loseweightnow co.

[B]

There's a difference between liking a house and actually getting it. Redfin is built to make up that difference and close the gap between finding and owning the home for you. Redfin agents twice as many deals as other agents, so when you find a home you love, you're not a step behind when it comes to making an offer. That means less watching great homes disappear and more focus on the one you'll call home. Redfin helps turn saved listings into real addresses. Get [e-mail] own the dream bookmarked by

[A]

Reese's Book Club is presented by Apple Books. Hi, I'm Danielle Robaix, and welcome to Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club. This week we're back with the author of February's Reese's Book Club pick, Philippa Millicka. Philippa's debut novel, In Her Defense, pulls you deep into a whirlpool of lies and deceit and love and obsession. Anna, a TV star and national treasure, is on trial for libel. Her daughter Mary has severed all ties with the family. And Anna has accused Mary's therapist, Jean, of brainwashing her daughter and planting false traumatic memories. Watching carefully from the sidelines is Anna's former employee, Gus, who might be the only person who knows the full story and the only person who can set the truth free. So, needless to say, this is a real psychological thriller. And by that, I mean it proves that sometimes the scariest place is within our own minds. So if you love a story that makes you question who's telling the truth and why, you are in exactly the right place. Let's turn the page with Philippa Millicka. Okay, Philippa, welcome back to the club.

[C]

Thank you so much. It's great to be back again.

[A]

I really loved talking to you a few weeks ago. And when we talked earlier this month, you said that you started writing this book while in a prose fiction master's program. And I think a lot of our listeners probably dream about getting to do something like that. What inspired you to say, I am doing this for real?

[C]

Well, I just gave it a go. I realized that I needed a bit of structure, and I really. I think I wanted a bit of validation. But importantly, I got rejected the first year, and I wrote to them and said, why? And they said, you applied quite late, and there were some really strong people, so give it another go. And I'm so glad I did, because then I got in the year after. You know that thing when you want something so much that you're kind of like, a bit deaf to people saying no. You're just kind of like, I've got to be on this program. And I'm so glad I did because it was very supportive for the book.

[A]

Well, the book began as an assignment, right? The seed of the idea.

[C]

I wrote the first three or four chapters for my dissertation at the very end of the course. And in my final term, I started playing around with voices for the story. So I wrote a lot from Anna's perspective, But actually, it was Gus that became the kind of through voice, and I wanted to just stay with her. So I played around a lot with the voices. And that's the best thing about any writing workshops. Whatever it is, it doesn't need to be an MA or mfa. It's that space to experiment and play and space to really evolve.

[A]

The seeds of the story, were they growing during the program for you, or is this an idea that, like, had haunted you for years, and you were like, now's the time to bring it to life?

[C]

I think I had been carrying this story with me for a while. I think I knew that I wanted to pursue it as a novel, whereas I was playing around with short stories for quite a bit during my ma. So it's almost like knuckling down to the final term. Like, okay, you gotta. You gotta get this out. You gotta write this on the page. And it's scary because, you know, an idea inside you feels safe and no one can hurt it, and no one can say, that doesn't make sense. As soon as you put it on the page, you go, okay, how's this really gonna work? But with the support of that community, it really. Yeah, it was how it all kind of started, basically.

[A]

Were there any scenes that you wrote originally that stayed true in the published version?

[C]

Definitely. When Gus first sees Anna Thimbo in Stoke on Trent, that was actually the beginning of the novel. And then that got pushed a little bit later. And, you know, the great thing that cracked open the novel for me, I was lucky enough to be mentored by Ian Rankin, crime writer extraordinaire. He wore this, like, brilliant black T shirt and kind of it sort of appeared to me a bit like Hamlet, you know, he was just brilliant in these classes. And he read, I mean, 5,000 words of total draft mess, you know, and we had a chat about it, and he said, you know, it's got to be ambiguous whether this girl is better off with Jean or actually better, or should she be back with her family? Don't make the family that she's left the perfect family. Make that ambiguous, too.

[A]

And, yeah, that's such a great book for me. Yeah.

[C]

And I have actually written to him to say thank you, but he hasn't replied. So, Ian, if you're listening, thanks for that.

[A]

Were you steeped in the world of thrillers as a reader, or did you discover the genre as you were writing it?

[C]

I discovered the genre as I was writing it. For me, character always drives plot. So with a character like Jean, with a setting like Rome, with a Witness narrator like Gus, this was always going to be quite kind of pacey and anxious and thrillery. But I learned on the job with that, and I'm so grateful because I think thrillers, you know, there are certain tricks and things that you can do that enable you to really keep your reader on side, like an unreliable narrator, like a setting like Rome, you're able to kind of play with different literary tropes, I guess, and they're available to you, and readers expect them, and they're satisfied when they get them as well. I'm really happy in that genre. Happy as you can be happy and unsettled.

[A]

When you say character drives plot from a writing standpoint, what do you mean?

[C]

So I believe that once you have your characters down and once you know about them and once you know what they're searching for and what they're trying to achieve and what they're embarrassed about and what they're trying to heel, I believe that that is where the story emerges from, rather than story kind of coming top down and then having characters like chess pieces to act it out. I really strongly believe that. But that's really just how I am as a writer. For me, if it's not true for the character, then the plot doesn't feel true and then it all starts to kind of tumble down like a house of cards. So getting your characters really, really right, which can take years, the story will emerge from that. But that's a long, long process of writing. And you have to have faith. You have to have faith that those characters will teach you what they want to say.

[A]

Are there any tricks you have for building out these characters? Like, do you have whiteboards with post its and how do you go about doing it?

[C]

Yeah, I definitely have long documents where I really had to interrogate myself. Like a Q and A, like, okay, where did she go to school? How does she feel about her school bag? What's the most embarrassing moment of her life? What's her relationship in this book with her parents? So actually having to kind of sit yourself down and really force yourself to solidify those answers is a really helpful exercise. And then you feel more confident in making decisions from their perspective. So, yeah, it's a bit horrible and queasy to do at first, but actually that kind of discipline is really, really helpful.

[A]

Yeah, it seems so. Especially if your character is driving the plot. I'm curious how you felt as the book took shape. What surprised you the most about yourself as a writer?

[C]

What surprised me most about myself as a writer? I think I was surprised that I could keep turning up to the story and I had the stamina because, you know, these are dark stories and this is a dark world to immerse yourself in. And particularly I was working full time, so I think I was surprised by my stamina and I'm proud of my stamina to keep going and to keep juggling both types of work. I think in terms of my characters, they surprised me all the time. Gus surprised me a lot right to the very end. I had to rewrite things in the ending to kind of fit what was true. This is real character, driving plot, things. Like, I had a version of the ending where Gus saves the day and she's this great person. I was like, that's just not her. That's just not her. She's more complicated than that.

[A]

You know, as I'm listening to you, I'm thinking, these characters feel so real to you. You're almost speaking about them as if they're people in your life. How does it feel now that the book is out into the world to have these characters be interpreted by all these other people?

[C]

It's kind of a wonderful experience. And it's kind of liberating, actually, to just say, right, they're yours now. And you get to feel frustrated, surprised, irritated, charmed by them as much as I did. You can't control what your readers are going to think. And I think particularly what I tried to get across in her defense is that people are very contradictory. I was thinking about it earlier today. Probably one of the only straightforward people in the book is Bonamy, which is Anna's husband. And I did love writing him at times because it felt like coming to a lovely, safe space where he plays a straight bat. You know, he's a lovely man. I'm kind of digressing there, but I think having readers navigate the contradictory nature of my characters is a total blessing, to be honest. I just hope that they don't get too frustrated with them when they don't maybe act as straightforwardly as the reader might like.

[A]

Well, I think you're touching on something that I felt reading the book, because the narrator, Gussie, could be read as either malicious or. Or just lonely. And Anna, her employer, could be mad with grief or genuinely just kind of a bad person and mother. As a reader, you're sort of. You're drawing such different conclusions chapter to chapter. Is it interesting to watch and hear readers draw different conclusions about these characters so intimately?

[C]

I actually really like it. I would love to be in a book club with my readers just to ask some of those questions and to hear some of their frustrations. And. I don't know, I kind of empathize, basically.

[A]

I kind of feel like you're in the book club right now. I think you're going to get reader feedback from Reese's Book Club. Recently, I went on a trip to Panama with my dad, and we go on a trip every single year together. This year, I had so much fun. We drank Panamanian coffee every morning. He took me on a little speedboat to the jungle and I got to see Titi Monkeys. We ate absolutely delicious food. I dragged him to all the best restaurants. And we always pick a book to read together set in the city we're visiting. So we picked a Panamanian thriller. And. And it was twisty. Trips like that are truly unforgettable. And what makes it even better is staying at a place on Airbnb. Now, if you're planning any upcoming trips, you could be hosting your home on Airbnb. And with Airbnb Co host network, you could hire a local co host to handle everything. Okay. Like creating your listing, managing reservations, guest communication on site support, and even styling your space. So while you're making your own memories, your home can be helping another family make theirs and earning you extra cash. Find a co [e-mail] host new year new you begin at loseweightnow co and make this the year you finally feel in control. With orderly meds, access proven GLP1 tirzepatide starting as low as $149 a month, it's simple, doctor guided and delivered right to your home so you can finally focus on feeling healthier and more confident. Get started today at loseweightnow co. Individual results may vary. Visit loseweightnow.co and get started today.

[B]

That's loseweightnow co. Let's talk about modern home shopping. It's sort of become a fun side hobby, right? Scrolling listings at night, dreaming about kitchens you've never seen or backyards you haven't even stepped foot in. All from the comfort of pretty much anywhere. Redfin knows a lot of people like you want to own but are stuck in this browsing mode loop. That's where Redfin flips the script. With listings that update within minutes and tours you can book right from the Redfin app, you can see your dream home the moment it appears. Now, liking a listing is easy, but actually landing it? That's where Redfin comes in. Redfin has over 2200 agents with local expertise, and Redfin agents close twice as many deals as other agents. That means they want to help you win, not just window shop. Redfin is built to help you go from just looking to wait. This could actually be home. So become the newest neighbor on the block. Visit redfin.com to start finding and start owning. That's redfin.com hi, I'm Cindy Crawford and

[A]

I'm the founder of Meaningful Beauty. Well, I don't know about you, but like, I never liked being told, oh wow, you look so good for your age. Like, why even bother Saying that, why don't you just say you look great at any age, every age. That's what Meaningful Beauty is all about. We create products that make you feel confident in your skin at the age you are now. Meaningful beauty, beautiful skin at every age. Learn [e-mail]. I want to crack the figurative cover. Can we talk about the epigraph for a second? I loved it so much.

[C]

Yes, yes.

[A]

You include three quotations.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Will you read each of them for us?

[C]

I would love to. Thank you. Yeah, I would absolutely love to. Two of them, interestingly, are from poets, and then one is from Kafka. So I'll read the first one. You remember too much. My mother said to me recently, why hold on to all that? And I said, where can I put it down? That's from the Glass essay by Anne Carson. And then there's this Kafka aphorism. A cage went in search of a bird. And then there's the final piece of poetry from Emily Berry, who's an amazing British poet. People can be removed from the world. They don't tell you that, but it's true. I mean, they do tell you, but they don't tell you. People you love can be removed from the world. They can remove themselves. They will be removed from the world. Didn't anybody ever tell you that? And I'm just remembering I once chased that poet down a tube platform in London to tell her I'd included this in my book. And she was just like, leave me alone. But the. I almost think of them as breadcrumbs for the reader to have in their mind. Thematically, they're bigger than breadcrumbs. They're probably like big sourdough loaves of bread that I want them to have kind of in their mind, percolating, fermenting as they read. So, you know, the first quote, it's a mother talking to her daughter, saying, you're remembering too much about what went on. And she says, yeah, but where do I put it? And that, to me, is, so what is going on in the book in terms of therapy? You know, looking for containment, looking for something that the mother relationship hasn't quite provided them and finding it in the wrong places. And the Kafka just reminded me of Jean. You know, the imprisoning, totalist nature of her relationships with the girls in the book. And then the last one by Emily Berry. It spoke to me so much about that idea that anybody can disappear. You were totally within your rights to just cut everyone off and start again and yet it's so unthinkable and awful to do so. And, you know, for all of Anna's flaws, the horror of her situation still blows my mind. Your adult child decides they no longer want a relationship with you, and you don't really know why. And to me, that kind of loss, it's not as straightforward as grief. It's ambiguous because they're still alive and you know where they live, but you can't go and speak to them because they've got a restraining order against you, as is the case in this book. So that idea of self removal from the world haunts me as well.

[A]

I think they're all individually really beautiful, but what I found so interesting is that they actually work together really beautifully. And I'm a big quote person. I actually. I used to be embarrassed about how much I love quotes because I thought, am I so corny that I love quotes this much? And then Gloria Steinem told me that she also loves quotes because it helps her put truths into context. And I felt so much better. And I was reading these three quotes thinking, there are infinite quotes in the world. How in the world did you choose these three? What was your process?

[C]

So when you're in the really joyful beginning bit of writing, it's almost like a narcotic thing where everything speaks to you very loudly and everything's about your book and every song is about your book and every conversation, you think someone else is going to write my book. It's this like, very porous, absolutely amazing state. It doesn't last. I wish it lasted. But as a result.

[A]

Sounds like being in love.

[C]

Yeah. Or exactly. Or it. It is like that. Or it's a bit like how Gus feels when she first starts therapy with Jean, where it's like the paintings have new meanings and you get on this like high vibe, high vibe frequency. And it's honestly the most amazing kind of part of the creative process. I wish it lasted forever. It doesn't. But in that process, you're like, you're magpying stuff. Your brain is like that shiny thing. That shiny thing. That's my theme. I'm glad that they spoke to you too. I love the way that they can kind of unlock something in the book and unlock something in the reader's anticipation. Yeah.

[A]

It feels like it sets the tone for the book in. In that way.

[C]

Definitely. Yeah. That Carson one I find really meaningful, I think still, like, that really gives me probably the biggest goosebumps of all three.

[A]

Do you think about your own mother, daughter relationship? Is that Why?

[C]

I think it's that thing of. Yeah, probably.

[A]

I thought of my mom. When you read it.

[C]

When you read it? Yeah. I think I remember I told my mum when I first started going to therapy and she said like, why, you know, what are you going to say? It's like, don't worry, it's not. I have a very great relationship with my mum. Luckily she got her hands on the book as quickly as she could, just to check she wasn't in it. But I've dedicated it to her and my dad just so that they can feel okay about the job. They did.

[A]

Yes. I actually think it's funny. Parents sometimes who haven't tried therapy oftentimes feel like if you're going to therapy everything is the parents fault. And actually I find it to be the exact opposite. Going to therapy is the act of taking ownership over your own life.

[C]

Totally. And the right therapist will say, yeah, it's not their fault, it's yours. The wrong therapist, as Jean in this book says. Yeah, you know what you've been dealing with bad cards here.

[A]

Exactly.

[C]

That's where she plays it. So wrongly and villainously. I guess.

[A]

So you wrote a thriller, but the thrill, the suspicion, the scare is all psychological. It's like no one's coming around with a weapon. There's no threaten of physical violence. It's really about the unpredictability of memory. Why did you feel like that was such an effective scary idea?

[C]

Well, so I think we think of our memories as these kind of robust stories that we tell ourselves about our lives. Like, you know, I've always loved reading and my first memory of reading a book is X, Y and Z. But actually they are just narratives created in language stored in our minds that we then deal like, you know, tarot cards to tell ourselves about who we are. They're, they're very, very, as the lawyer says in the book, prone to contamination. Slippery like eels, you know. And the more I read about false memory syndrome, the more I read about the wrong type of witness interrogation, I realized actually our sense of self is really flawed and in the wrong hands we can be led to believe totally different things about ourselves. And that really was mind blowing and tricky to kind of create in fiction because you didn't want to totally unpack everything that happens in the therapy room, but you wanted to try and get across some of that suggestiveness and some of the power of language to kind of make you actually think that things that happened to you maybe didn't or did or didn't, you know. So it's. Yeah, false memory syndrome is just totally fascinating. And yeah, there's just so much you can read online about it. People believing all sorts of completely crazy things about themselves.

[A]

Sometimes psychological weapons are even more wielding. I would say definitely.

[C]

Yeah. They're much scarier than like, you know, I don't know, we've all experienced that in various minor ways, hopefully, you know, with ghosting or whatever. But when you have a very, very intense relationship with someone and they suddenly go cold on you, it's horrific. Yeah. And Jean loves to use that.

[A]

So you mentioned so many of the characters names. We have Gus, who's a loner artist with some really big secrets. We have Mary, who is a young privileged woman who has gone missing, essentially. Anna, her mother, who is a lifestyle media maven who definitely reminds me of a real life character who I will not name. And Jean, a therapist with very questionable tactics. And they are all women and none of them stand out as an obvious heroine. And none of them, at least in my opinion, were particularly likable. What was behind that decision?

[C]

I think it was a commitment to truth and authenticity in that people are really contradictory. I definitely wanted Gus voice and her perspective to be the most compelling. But that doesn't mean, I don't think as a writer that you have to make her actions totally compelling and morally perfect. Gus, I think at the end of the day, does the right thing by trying to guarantee Mary's freedom. I do think that. And I think she sacrifices herself on the witness stand, she gets humiliated. She looks like the weak link. And actually she's kind of struck that deal with Jean. So it takes a long time and quite a lot of patience to sit with Gus and to kind of see that she is eventually trying to do the right thing. But then you see her in the kind of last bit of the book, so still falling into familiar patterns. And that felt very authentic to me.

[A]

Did you feel pressure to make any of them redeemable?

[C]

I think we wanted to make Mary a little bit less cold and hostile. She was pretty icy and I made her a little bit warmer. But I was keen not to make her the kind of perfect victim either. She plays with Gus, you know, she really plays with her and she leads her on. But the thing is, we've all done that. So I want that to also be something that we can recognize that we might have done when we were kind of being messy in our 20s, you know. So hopefully, you know, not necessarily likable, but hopefully authentic is what I'm aiming at.

[A]

So I'm reading, and every time a character makes a bad decision, I'm like, again, like. Like, you're so mad at these characters sometimes. And I was wondering, while you were plotting out the story, did you think about, okay, what is the right thing for this character to do? And then just, right, the opposite. How did you do this?

[C]

The plotting, as I say, character always drives plot. So when you're dealing with flawed, contradictory characters, they are going to do the wrong thing. Also, though, and this is very important to me, they think they're doing the right thing. And that was a really important thing to try and unlock in this book. Jean, even though she's a villain, she's got a messiah complex. She thinks that she is helping. She honestly thinks that she's helping some of these girls that she works with. And Anna thinks that the right way to get her daughter out of the clutches of this evil woman is to take her down as publicly as she can. So I think. I didn't necessarily say, okay, here's a crossroads. We could go, like, north or south here, and, you know, we'll go south. It was more.

[A]

I don't know if I believe you, Philippa.

[C]

Doing it just to wind everyone up.

[A]

I usually ask one unhinged question. Every interview that pops pops into my mind. Here is my unhinged question for you. Is there secretly. Are there any pieces of you in any of these characters?

[C]

In every single one? I think, yeah. Oh, I think so. I think so. I think most.

[A]

Wow.

[C]

Mostly in Gus, I think, because she's a. She watches and she feels like an outsider. And I think I didn't permanently think of myself as an outsider. But there's a lot of her observations, particularly of those girls at the art school when she first arrives in Rome. Those felt really true to me, you know, just by virtue of being in that first person narrator's voice for so long. You do pour a lot into. Of yourself into that character. The bit that really is most of me in Gus. And this is actually so sad to admit, but also amazing, I think, is that she talks about how she wasn't pursuing her career as a ceramic artist for a while. And in those moments when life got in the way and she wasn't committing to what made her passionate, she says in those moments she just felt unbearably sad. And that's exactly how I used to feel when I would have some time when I wasn't writing or when I felt like I wasn't pursuing writing. You know, that kind of just desperate sadness about not following it or doing it or feeling like it was running away from me or, you know, that. That, to me, that kind of creative ambition of Gus's, I think I really poured a lot of myself into.

[A]

Is there a character who is secretly your favorite?

[C]

Bonamy. He's just a lovely man. Bonami is so nice. I'm also quite into Anna's dog. I think he's very cute. But, yeah, I really like Bonamy, but he can be quite weak. You know, he's not perfect either. But I do think that Bonhomie's a nice guy.

[A]

You know, in thinking about Gus and what you just shared, like, the pieces of herself that were sad when she wasn't pursuing her dream, I think it was such a universal feeling. And, like, at the heart of her character is this deep loneliness and desire to be seen. And there's a big theme in your book about being seen versus being known. And I actually have never thought of the difference. What is it in your mind

[C]

that's. That's so amazing that you've picked that out? Because it also speaks to the portrait school and sitting as a model and being sort of superficially seen.

[A]

So.

[C]

So difference between being seen and known. So seen has a superficiality. Right? I see you. I see you across the room. I see how you look. I paint my portrait of you. But being known as being, you know, seen in three dimensions and accepted and actually loved for your flaws. I think these characters are yearning to be known by everybody else. And that's really what attracts Gus to Jean, is that she finds herself in the position of being known for the first time. Likewise, Mary wants to be known, I think, a bit more by Gus, who just sees her, is attracted to her. We're all yearning to be known on some level, to be seen in our total parts and with our bad sides, too. And I think that's what I'm getting at with these characters, these contradictory characters with their bad sides. Hopefully readers are knowing them and not just seeing them.

[A]

That's really beautifully said, just for anybody who hasn't read that scene, if they haven't. Gus is an art model and somebody paints a portrait and she looks at it and just does not recognize herself. And it's disorienting.

[C]

It's such a sad scene. She thinks she's gonna. She's been sitting for this portrait for this girl that she's basically in love with, and they've had this kind of intense relationship. And so she thinks that when the portrait kind of is revealed to her that she'll Be portrayed in a way that meant that she was known rather than seen. And what comes out is something superficial, something a bit derivative. It's a bad portrait. And Gus is devastated because she feels that she's been misrepresented, presented. And yeah, it's. She's very sad in that scene, but she can't say why. And that's. That's why my hands are over my face.

[A]

Yeah, it's a really powerful scene. The knowing versus seeing reminded me of something, actually, from a therapist. So one time a therapist asked what my fear was around breaking up with a guy. And I thought of living in this really, really depressing studio apartment in Los Angeles. It had no windows and really old, gross carpet everywhere that was dirty no matter how much I cleaned it. And it was just such a depressing place to live. And I was depressed about my career at the time. And I would lie in bed at night just feeling this deep sense of loneliness. And I wasn't alone. I was surrounded by people, but I was so deeply lonely. And when she asked me that question, I thought, okay, it's that loneliness. And I pictured that apartment, and that was my deepest fear. And she said, oh, that's so interesting, because you've built a whole career around the opposite. You are obsessed with connection. And I had a huge light bulb go off in my mind because I think so often we are pursuing things in our lives based on these deep seated fears. And when I think about you writing this book about being seen and being known, I was wondering if it was an antidote to one of your deepest fears.

[C]

This is therapy now, Danielle. This is brilliant. Undoubtedly. Undoubtedly. I think there's the whole practice of writing a book and saying, hey, everyone, you know, look what I've done. Because you are, on some level, you are. You're saying, look at my thoughts. Look at what I think about this. It is about being known. And as much as you can say, gosh, you know, readers reading this, and I feel very exposed on the page now, and, you know, do they think I'm gassed? And, you know, at the same time, it's totally thrilling. It's like, it's this. I've been very authentic about most of what I think in that book, and actually having it out on the page feels liberating, actually. And, yeah, in terms of your. It's just interesting as well that you, you know, you've built a life away from that loneliness. I think what's so cool about writing is that you are able to recreate things that you've experienced in social situations and take control of them effectively. You can take control of them. You can be the master manipulator of them. And I think that speaks to addressing kind of powerlessness that you might have felt in certain contexts at different times. So you know that the power of spinning your own yarn, or in your case, building this incredible career as an interviewer, like, it's about you regaining control over your fears.

[A]

Wow.

[C]

And I think, yeah, I think that also speaks to the theme of motherhood as well. You know, I kept coming back to this book in this story because this idea of, you know, adult child cutting themselves off from you felt to me like a nightmare that I wanted to work out what the response was, would be. And I think a lot of writers do that. They take their worst fears, they take their phobias, they create a novel about it, and then they go, okay, I've dealt with that, so I'll know what to do if it happens. In my case, I wouldn't do what Anna Finbo did in any. In any respect. But it's interesting that you kind of. I mean, again, I think therapists would have a field day that you are just kind of mapping out your worst fears and trying to come up with a good response to them.

[A]

Yeah. I love your explanation of that. That's so beautiful. Recently, I went on a trip to Panama with my dad, and we go on a trip every single year together. This year, I had so much fun. We drank Panamanian coffee every morning. He took me on a little speedboat to the jungle, and I got to see titi monkeys. We ate absolutely delicious food. I dragged him to all the best restaurants, and we always pick a book to read together set in the city we're visiting. So we picked a Panamanian thriller and it was twisty. Trips like that are truly unforgettable. And what makes it even better is staying at a place on Airbnb. Now, if you're planning any upcoming trips, you could be hosting your home on Airbnb. And with Airbnb Co host Network, you could hire a local co host to handle everything. Okay. Like creating your listing, managing reservations, guest communication, on site support, and even styling your space. So while you're making your own memories, your home can be helping another family make theirs and earning you extra cash. Find a co [e-mail] host ready to feel healthier this year? Find everything you need at loseweightnow. CO orderly meds gives you access to proven GLP1 medications at a lower cost backed by real medical professional professionals. And yes, they ship in discreet private packaging because it's nobody's business how you're improving yourself. And your journey deserves dignity, privacy and confidence. Get started today at loseweightnow. Co. Individual results may vary. Visit loseweightnow. Co and get started today. That's loseweightnow.

[B]

Co. Let's talk about modern home shopping. It's sort of become a fun side hobby, right? Scrolling listings at night, dreaming about kitchens you've never seen or backyards you haven't even stepped foot in. All from the comfort of pretty much anywhere. Redfin knows a lot of people like you want to own but are stuck in this browsing mode loop. That's where Redfin flips the script. With listings that update within minutes and tours you can book right from the Redfin app, you can see your dream home the moment it appears. Now, liking a listing is easy, but actually landing it, that's where Redfin comes in. Redfin has over 2200 agents with local expertise, and Redfin agents close twice as many deals as other agents. That means they want to help you win, not just window shop. Redfin is built to help you go from just looking to wait. This could actually be home. So become the newest neighbor on the block. Visit redfin.com to start finding and start owning. That's redfin.com hi, I'm Cindy Crawford and

[A]

I'm the founder of Meaningful Beauty. Well, I don't know about you, but like, I never liked being told, oh, wow, you look so good for your age. Like, why even bother saying that? Why don't you just say you look great at any age? Every age. That's what Meaningful Beauty is all about. We create products that make you feel confident in your skin at the age you are now. Meaningful Beauty. Beautiful skin at every age. Learn [e-mail]. Philippa I love asking our guests what they've bookmarked this week. And it can be a fun quote or something you've texted your best friend or Axel, your partner. What is something that you have bookmarked?

[C]

So I'm actually due to give birth in the next week or so. So a lot of my social media is kind of about how to change nappies or all sorts of things about motherhood. I was the one googling how to change nappies. I didn't get any solid answers, but this was a quote from the writer Rachel Cusk, the British writer who I really love. And it weirdly came to me on Facebook through like a forum of something. But she said, I remain fascinated by where you go as a woman once you are a mother, and if you ever come back. And I thought, wow, yeah, I read it in the bath and I screenshotted it and sent it to my friends. And you know what? That would probably be a really good beginning of another novel if you ever come back. So I'm very much in that headspace at the moment. So, yeah, that was what I bookmarked.

[A]

There's this great book from Alicia Menendez called the Likability Trap, and she talks about motherhood in that way. She talks about how her biggest fear was, like, that she would never be the same again and people wouldn't perceive her the same way. There's so much identity shifting that goes into becoming a mom, and motherhood is such a charged topic that runs through your book. Did the proximity to it make the, the book feel more honest or more frightening?

[C]

I think, I mean, by the time I was pregnant, I was just copy editing the book, so I wasn't able to kind of go in and, like, thematically address as much as I probably would like to, but I think I've just always known this. What scares me most about motherhood is this idea that they will have a scorecard on you. Your child will be like, yeah, you did some things well, some things not so well. And that's something you have to reconcile yourself with. I just heard Sadie Smith on another podcast talking about how she wanted to knock on her children's doors and be like, hey, kids, so how's it going? You know, like, how have you done? And they're like, mom, you're being weird. You know, And I think that idea that, like, you know, you're learning on the job and Anna, this is a moment that I really respond to with Anna is when she says, you know, the moment you work out how to do it, they've actually gone, and then they've got this scorecard on you. And I, I, I really empathize with that, that, you know, you're learning about this role and how to bring someone through the messy chaos of life just as they're growing up. And it's terrifying, frankly. It really is.

[A]

Is there anything that you would change in the story now that you're on the precipice of becoming a mom?

[C]

Oh, wow. I think I would maybe have more of Anna's hurt. There were more scenes of Anna's kind of hurt and sadness in there. And I think maybe I would have argued for them to say, stay in just because it's so harrowing and there might be Responses that Anna had that I would probably make a bit more complex now, but I'm not really sure yet. Ask me in a year.

[A]

Okay. We'll do a part two in another year, please. There's an element that I found really chilling, and it was the duality of experience. And we kind of touched on it earlier when we talked about memory. But this is slightly different because you are really saying that you can both be the victim and the villain in a story, depending on who's telling it.

[C]

It's all about the way that each character is justifying their own actions to themselves, seeing themselves as victims. But the reader sees something else, and we see them as villains and making bad decisions. And that shift between those two sort of experiences, I think, is where some of the, like, the texture of the book lives, but also some of the frustration and contradiction.

[A]

I have a process question for you here, and I'm going to preface it with this. When I was working in News years ago, I had a boss who said to me, before you cover anything, you have to ask yourself three questions. The first is, who writes the stories, who benefits from the stories, and who's missing from the stories. And now when I jump into something, I always have those questions in my mind. Not all of them apply all the time, but I think it's a nice rubric when you are trying to write the duality of these characters. Did you have a rubric? Were there certain questions that you asked yourself in order to get the villain and the victim out of this one person?

[C]

I would say that you are always really guided by the unreconcilable questions. So what would you do if that happened to you? You know, what would you do if your adult daughter decided to testify against you in court? Those are the questions that keep you coming back. So it was more the questions that I myself personally didn't quite know the answers to and that I wanted to explore. Those are the questions I kept coming back to.

[A]

That makes so much sense. Okay, this is a little bit of a spoiler. It's a small one. So if you haven't read the book, turn this off. But this book ends on a bit of a cliffhanger. And I want to know from you, someone who has spent so much time with these characters, what do you think happens to Mary and Anna?

[C]

I think there are so many different ways the story could go. What we see is Anna still writing about her family feud in public. But we also see Mary living apart from Jean now. And I really believe that she wouldn't have Stayed around after everything that she witnessed. So I definitely think Mary moves away. I don't think that she's fully, like, back in society in a kind of fully healthy way. But I do think that she separated herself from Jean. I kind of see a world where she tentatively makes inroads into her relationship with Anna again. But I don't think that they will ever be obviously the same. And I think Mary will be changed forever by her relationship with Jean. Like, we all are impacted by devastating relationships that end, you know, what Mary goes through is totally horrific. So I think that Anna will still play her public card. I think that Mary will learn to forgive those aspects of her. I was thinking about this. I was like, maybe Gus should just have some really good therapy, and maybe she could sort of see the error of some of her patterns.

[A]

I was just gonna ask you because, like, I think there's a possibility that she becomes Jean 2.0. But it sounds like you feel like she's headed in a better direction.

[C]

I think Gus is headed in a better direction. But I do think she will always be searching for those types of relationships. And I also think someone like Jean will always do what she does. Like, I don't think that someone like Jean, who gets off on power, who has that level of charisma, somehow you don't just switch that off. So I was kind of imagining a world like, God. What would happen if, say, you know, as is now the case in the uk, you know, coercive manipulation actually is a criminal offense. It's very difficult to. To kind of prosecute. Imagining a world where Jean went to prison. She'd still find followers. She'd still find people to chat to. You know, she just. She would never stop. So I do see worlds and worlds where someone like Jean will just operate like that till the end of her life.

[A]

Okay, Philippa. One of my favorite parts of the show is called Speed Read. And I love hearing people's answers to these questions. We're going to put 60 seconds on the clock and see how many rapid fire literary questions you can get through. I have a feeling you're going to be really good at this.

[C]

Don't put pressure.

[A]

Well, you have quick recall. Okay. Three, two, one. What's one literary trope you would ban forever?

[C]

Male British writers who use the word panties. I'm blushing.

[A]

I love that answer. That could be the best answer ever. Okay. One that you'll defend with your life.

[C]

The kind of shadowy person that comes into your life and tells you truths about it. The freaky person that turns up and offers truth.

[A]

What's at the top of your TBR pile right now?

[C]

Aaron Darty Roy's memoir, Mother Mary comes to Me.

[A]

What's at the top of Gus's TBR pile right now?

[C]

Oh, my goodness. She is going to be reading some. She's going to be reading some self help. I don't know who she'll be reading, but she'll be reading some self help.

[A]

I'll be with her. Okay, what's your favorite book to recommend?

[C]

I always buy Brother of the more famous Jack by Barbara Trappedo, which is set in Rome. It's the a much lighter and brilliant. More brilliant read than mine. It's phenomenal if you know, you know.

[A]

What book do you wish you could read again for the first time?

[C]

Something like Wuthering Heights. Something like Wuthering Heights. I think just for the vibe, just the vibe of it.

[A]

You're a mood reader.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

What book are you excited to read with your son?

[C]

A book called Dogger by Shirley Hughes. But I'm actually about to burst into tears. It's about a boy that loses his toy dog, but he gets it at the end. And the opposite thing happened to me. I lost my toy dog forever. So I've got trauma here. But yeah, Dogger by Shirley Hughes to try and rewrite that trauma.

[A]

What book shaped the way that you see the world?

[C]

Probably something like the Secret History she creates, that whole genre of like dark academia. And she's such a, like, originator. She shaped the way I see the world and the way I see writing and fiction. So yeah.

[A]

Donna Tartt, in the spirit of being the February pick, what is your favorite love story? Can be toxic or non toxic.

[C]

Oh, my goodness. It will be. Oh my God. Birthday Letters by Ted Hughes. Collection of poems about Sylvia Plath and charting their courtship. It's brutal and beautiful and astonishing and I can't get over it.

[A]

Still, I love reading other people's love letters so much. I can't wait to get that one. Thank you.

[C]

Love it.

[A]

Philippa, thank you so much for your time, your insight and honestly, the complexity. It's so cool to read about all of these characters and see the best and worst parts of yourself in them. And I hope, based on our last conversation a few weeks ago, that you are having so much lobster and vodka and really celebrating. Actually, you can't have vodka yet, but I hope once your son is born that you have lots of lobster and vodka.

[C]

Thank you much. So, so much.

[A]

If you want a little bit more from us, come hang with us on socials. We're at Reese's Book Club on Instagram serving up books, vibes and behind the scenes magic. And I'm Danielle Robay. R O B A Y Come say hi and DM me. And if you want to go 90s on us, you can call us. Okay, so our phone line is open, so call us now at 501-291-3333. That's 501-291-3379. Share your literary hot takes, your book recommendations. Ooh. Please share those and questions about the monthly pick. Or just let us know what you think about the episode you just heard. And who knows, you might just hear yourself in our next episode. So don't be shy, give us a ring. And of course, make sure to follow Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your shows. Until then, see you in the next chapter. Bookmarked is a production of Hello Sunshine and iHeart podcasts. It's executive produced by Reese Witherspoon and me, Danielle Robaix. Production is by Acast Creative Studios. Our producers are Maddie Foley, Brittany Martinez and Sarah Schleed. Our production assistant is Avery Loftus. Jenny Kaplan and Emily Rutter are the executive producers for AK Cast Creative Studios. Maureen Polo and Reese Witherspoon are the executive producers for hello Sunshine. Olga Kaminwa, Sarah Kernerman, Kristin Perla and Ashley Rapaport are associate producers for Reese's Book Club. Ali Perry and Lauren Hanson are the executive producers for iHeart podcasts. Today's episode is brought to you by Cotton. We spend a lot of time with stories, hours curled up with dynamic plots and characters who feel like friends. What if the story isn't just in your hands but also in the world around you, in the fabric that's holding you close? Cotton is that timeless companion. Soft sheets for a lazy weekend morning with a book. Breezy dresses for afternoons spent reading in the backyard. It's the fabric that can be tossed in the wash without fuss. It's about ease, comfort and caring for yourself and the planet. Just like books we cherish, cotton weaves meaning into everyday moments. Next time you settle in for a chapter, slip into something cotton. Not just to read the story, but to feel it. The fabric of our lives. Learn [e-mail] I'm partnering with Simple Mills and I have now found a new Go to reading snack. Simple Mills Almond Flour Crackers. Think of this as a quick book style review because these crackers deserve it. The premise A snack that feels light, not heavy. Made with almond flour, sunflower seeds and flaxseeds. Nutrient dense ingredients your body can use. Not empty carbs. And the taste? Crunchy, classic flavors that leave you feeling energized. For a good plot twist, try Pop' Ems. Cheesy, airy, poppable crackers packed with veggies. Final Verdict these are a shelf staple. Find simple meals at your grocery store. At cvs, it matters that we're not just in your community, but that we're part of it. It matters that we're here for you when you need us, day or night, and we want everyone to feel welcomed and rewarded. It matters that CVS is here to fill your prescriptions and here to fill your craving for a tasty and yeah, healthy, healthy snack. At cvs, we're proud to serve your community because we believe where you get your medicine matters. So Visit [e-mail] or just come by our store. We can't wait to meet you. Store hours vary by location. When you stay in your home, what you love gets to stay too. From the gardens that grow wild to

[B]

the grandkids that run wilder.

[A]

From the Friday night baseball games to the Sunday morning brunches, even the daily crosswords and weekly book clubs, there's room for it all. With help from Home Instead, the largest in home Senior Care network. With over 30 years of trusted experience delivering the peace of mind you deserve, visit Home instead online for a better what's next? This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.