Season Finale: Lt Gen Armagost and Book Club

Summary

Podcast Summary: Books to Battles – Season Finale: Lt Gen Armagost and Book Club

Host: School of Advanced Air and Space Studies (SAASS)
Episode Air Date: June 3, 2026
Guests: Lt Gen Jason R. Armagost, Lt Col Rachel Reynolds, Dr. Wendy Whitman Cobb, Col Corey Holland

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Episode Overview

The season finale of Books to Battles features a rich, multidimensional discussion with Lt Gen Jason R. Armagost (Deputy Commander, Air Force Global Strike Command/US Strategic Command) on the intersection of liberal arts education, reading, strategic leadership, and the challenges graduates will face as they transition from academic study to the operational Air Force. The episode also launches the podcast’s upcoming fiction book club with an in-depth preview. Throughout, guests explore themes ranging from “catalytic thinking” to the limitations of AI for critical thought, classical influences on military strategy, and cultivating intellectual curiosity in high-stakes staff environments.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Preparing SAASS Graduates for Strategic Leadership

• Key Questions for Graduates (02:26)

  • "What do I need at Global Strike Command from a SAASS graduate coming onto a staff?"
  • "What will be working against them, even from within that staff?"
    (Lt Gen Armagost, 02:26)

• The ‘Tragic Cycle’ and Creative Thinking

  • Drawing from Thucydides and Greek tragedy as metaphors for the impediments to creativity and challenge within staff work.
  • Staff structure can unintentionally stifle creative, "catalytic" thinking:

    "A staff is going to do to thwart creative thinking... institutionalized staff work as a Greek tragedy."
    (Armagost, 04:27)

• Catalytic Thinking Defined

  • "By catalytic or catalysis, what I need them to do is actually to think and lead...forming that staff as they bring that bucket of knowledge they have and that different way of thinking."
    (Armagost, 04:43)

2. The Value of a Liberal Arts Background in Strategy

• Origins and Importance

  • Lt Gen Armagost transitioned from math to English at the Air Force Academy influenced by reading The Closing of the American Mind:

    "That book influenced my reading journey from that day forward. And I've actually returned to it a couple times and recommended it to younger officers."
    (Armagost, 07:49)

  • Emphasis on the liberal arts as the "school of leadership," where broad, critical perspectives and intellectual dexterity are fostered.

• Encouragement for Diverse Educational Backgrounds

  • The panel notes a trend: senior officers from varied academic backgrounds excel in strategic thinking roles.

3. Building a Lifetime Reading Framework

• Armagost’s Approach for Young Officers (08:29–11:11)

  • Start with a compelling general or narrative history of a world-historical figure.
  • Supplement with historical fiction or novel to add emotional, contextual depth.
  • Pursue memoirs or biographies for personal insight.
  • Finally, "read what they were reading," to understand the intellectual inputs behind historical figures’ own thinking.

  "Go read what they were reading that made them who they were after the memoir. And so I think that...has worked for them."
  (Armagost, 10:55)

4. Translating Theory to Operational Reality

• Balancing Theory and Practice (11:17–14:17)

  • Caution against "becoming the professor in the room"—practical leadership requires translating theory into action, not preaching it.
  • Humility and audience awareness are vital when introducing strategic theory in operational contexts.

  "You can very quickly put a blank look on someone's face if you start preaching to them essentially the theory."
  (Armagost, 14:17)

5. Intellectual Qualities for Strategic Leaders

• Three Key Attributes

  • Curiosity – Being interested in both your own toolkit and the perspectives of others.
  • Creativity – Synthesizing new solutions from diverse inputs.
  • Catalysis – Stimulating change and effective thinking in group settings.

  (15:15–15:45)

6. AI, Creativity, and Critical Thinking

• AI as a Tool, Not a Replacement (15:51–18:42)

  • Overuse risks eroding critical faculties; true intellectual fitness requires effort, curiosity, and personal synthesis:

    "You cannot AI your way to mental fitness or intellectual fitness, just like you can't AI your way to physical fitness. There is work required."
    (Armagost, 18:21)

  • AI should augment curiosity, supplying information, but humans must frame the right questions and make meaning.

  "But that requires that human mind and that critical thinking as a vessel for AI."
  (Armagost, 17:53)

7. Intellectual Humility and Changing One’s Mind

• Embracing Change (18:45–19:13)

  • "What changed your mind?" Armagost frames himself as a natural questioner, always searching for multiple viewpoints.

  "...if somebody like Nietzsche tells me that every argument comes down to that between Plato and Thucydides, I'll actually go read both. And so I intentionally approach things with a kind of questioning mindset."
  (Armagost, 19:13)

8. What the Strategic Community Might Get Wrong

• Beware the Next "Big Thing" (20:27)

  • Warning against technophilia and fads (AI, drones, etc.) becoming the sole solution.
  • The real value is integrating new tools without letting them dominate strategic thought.

• Rediscovering First Principles

  • Emphasis on not allowing new hot topics like “multi-domain” or technology to shape the mission, but focusing on core principles of strategy, maneuver, and holding targets at risk (21:46–33:43).

9. Enduring Lessons from Ukraine and Tech in Warfare

• World War I Parallels in Ukraine (23:00–23:46)
  • Modern drone and technical capabilities have yet to transcend the attritional, grinding nature of war—technology is not a substitute for strategic fundamentals.

10. What Every Lieutenant Should Read

• Accessible, Influential Reads (24:10–25:48)
  • Warfighting (Alfred M. Gray, USMC doctrine):

    "It's 100 pages. It is useful immediately as a leader, it's useful as a thinker, and it drives them into other areas that they might find interest in."
    (Armagost, 25:25)

11. Launching the SAASS Fiction Book Club

• Syllabus and Structure (34:45–41:30)

  • “10-book short course” aligning fictional works with core SAASS courses, blending genres (historical fiction, sci-fi, fantasy) to illuminate big strategic themes.

  • Two highlighted novels:

    • Code Name Verity by Elizabeth Wein (“non-kinetic airpower, total war, human-level narrative” – Reynolds, 37:04)
    • This Is How You Lose the Time War by Amal El-Mohtar & Max Gladstone (“subversion, nonlinear warfare, cyber/information war themes” – Reynolds, 39:26)
    • First assigned book: The Heroes by Joe Abercrombie (strategy at every level, stand-alone, modern fantasy) (41:47)
    • General Armagost’s recent favorite: Glorious Exploits by Ferdia Lennon (“Guy Ritchie meets Thucydides in a Dublin-accented retelling of the Sicilian expedition”—26:15)

  "Read along with us as we publish episodes that cover each of these fiction strategy thematic books over the year."
  (Reynolds, 36:15)

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Memorable Quotes & Timestamps

• On Tragedy and Staff Work:

  "Institutionalized staff work is... a Greek tragedy."
  — Lt Gen Armagost, 04:39

• On the Mission of a SAASS Graduate:

  "I need them to do is actually to think and lead... as they bring that bucket of knowledge they have and that different way of thinking."
  — Lt Gen Armagost, 05:01

• On AI and Intellectual Fitness:

  "You cannot AI your way to mental fitness or intellectual fitness, just like you can't AI your way to physical fitness. There is work required."
  — Lt Gen Armagost, 18:21

• On Technological Fads:

  "We get very excited as a species about the next big thing... and when that becomes the singular approach... that is what I am most concerned about."
  — Lt Gen Armagost, 20:42

• On the Value of Narrative in Learning:

  "Human beings need a narrative to be able to remember something, have it really absorb. And so these narratives are going to be great."
  — Col Corey Holland, 36:43

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Timestamps of Important Segments

• Introduction & Purpose – 00:06–02:19
• Armagost’s Graduation Message Preview: 02:19–05:22
• What is “Catalytic Thinking”? – 04:41–05:22
• Transition from Tactical to Strategic Thinking – 05:36–07:12
• Impact of Liberal Arts Education – 07:12–08:19
• Reading Framework for Officers – 08:29–11:11
• Balancing Theory with Operational Practice – 11:17–14:17
• Attributes for Effective Leaders: Curiosity, Creativity, Catalysis – 15:15–15:45
• Challenges & Opportunities of AI – 15:51–18:42
• Changing Your Mind/Intellectual Humility – 18:45–19:13
• Avoiding Techno-Fads & Focusing on Principles – 20:27–21:36, 32:31–33:43
• Ukraine, WWI, & Limits of Technology – 23:00–23:46
• Book Recommendations for New Lieutenants – 24:02–25:48
• Launching the Fiction Book Club – 34:45–41:30
• Book Club Highlights and Assignments – 37:04–41:30

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Tone and Language

The discussion is collegial, erudite, and often self-deprecating—peppered with humor (“I thought you were going to go to Thucydides in South Park…”) and enthusiasm for both literature and strategic studies. The hosts and guest alike stress humility, critical inquiry, and the necessity of grounding high-concept theory in practical, accessible action for the next generation of military strategists.

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For Listeners

Whether you’re a military professional, aspiring strategist, or lifelong learner, this finale offers frameworks for continual growth, book recommendations to ignite your intellectual curiosity, and an invitation to join the SAASS literary staff ride for a new, narrative-based approach to strategic thought in the year ahead.

Transcript

[Lieutenant General Jason R. Armagost]

Foreign.

[Dr. Wendy Whitman Cobb]

Welcome to books, to battles where we explore academic insights for real world air and space strategy. I'm Dr. Wendy Whitman Cobb, professor of Strategy and Security Studies and Deputy Commandant of the School of Advanced Air and Space Studies.

[Colonel Corey Holland]

And I'm Colonel Corey Holland, professor of Strategy and Security Studies, also at sas. Before we get any further, we want to note that all opinions expressed here are ours or our guests and do not necessarily represent the official position of the Department of the Air Force, the Department of Defense, or war, or the United States government. And today we are joined by Lieutenant General Jason R. Armagost. He is the Deputy Commander of Air Force Global Strike Command and the Deputy Commander, Air force's Strategic Air U.S. strategic Command. The command is comprised of over 36,000 professionals, two numbered air forces, 12 wings, the Joint Global Strike Operations center, all U.S. air Force ICBMs, intercontinental ballistic missiles, bombers, uh, 1s MH139s. You also in control of the E4B, the National Airborne Operations center and the NC3 weapons system. He's a graduate of the U.S. air Force Academy with over 2900 hours and 415 in combat in the B2F, 16F16CG, the B1B, B52, and the T38. He's had a fellowship at the center for International Security and Cooperation at Stanford. He was the Chief of Nuclear Operations on the Joint Staff and the Commander of the mighty 8th Air Force. And one or two assignments ago, you were the Deputy Commanding General for Security Assistance Group Ukraine. But most interestingly, as a speech Communications and Religious Studies graduate, I noticed that your bachelor's degree is in English from the United States Air Force Academy. The liberal. Go liberal arts. General Arast, welcome to the podcast.

[Lieutenant General Jason R. Armagost]

Well, thank you. It's great to be here. I've enjoyed listening to your podcast and look forward to the, the robust discussion.

[Colonel Corey Holland]

Outstanding.

[Dr. Wendy Whitman Cobb]

Well, you're here, you are here at SAS because you're speaking to our graduating class, Class 35. It graduates today in a little under two hours. So congratulations, Class 35.

[Colonel Corey Holland]

And this should air about a week after that. So this is sort of our fadeaway jumper to the class.

[Dr. Wendy Whitman Cobb]

Yeah. So, so thanks for joining us. Can you give us maybe any preview maybe of what you're about to say to our students?

[Lieutenant General Jason R. Armagost]

Yeah, so I, I decided this is my, these are my notes from last night actually, that I thought about kind of in a, in a rain delay in Atlanta and then sitting in my room last night. And so I really came down to two, two questions or two kind of thrusts to graduates who've undergone this. This rigorous program, which is, what do I need at Global Strike Command from a SAS graduate coming onto a staff? What do I need them to do and be? And then secondarily, and I think, more importantly, what will be working against them, even from within that staff? And so those two questions actually tie back into books to battles because of kind of the metaphorical approach to actually what's working against them?

[Colonel Corey Holland]

Hmm.

[Dr. Wendy Whitman Cobb]

What is working against them?

[Lieutenant General Jason R. Armagost]

So I will call it the Tragic Cycle. And what you're going to hear at the graduation speech is really, when I look to read a reading program, I look to not just the inspiring figures of history or the inspiring thinkers of history, but I look at what formed them and what did they read and what did they think about to become those historical figures and to think those historical thoughts. And so in the case of Thucydides, obviously, his experience in war, which is, of course, a central, Central text really, for. For the formation of SASS actually, too. But even throughout the year, I. I see that all the books touch back somehow.

[Dr. Wendy Whitman Cobb]

We always get back. Even in space, we get back to Thucydides.

[Lieutenant General Jason R. Armagost]

Absolutely.

[Colonel Corey Holland]

Do you remember the. There's a South park episode where they were trying to do something original, and for the entire 30 minutes, every joke, every skit, every thing that they did, the comment was always, simpsons already did it. I feel that way when I'm talking about anything in military history. Thucydides already touched this.

[Lieutenant General Jason R. Armagost]

I actually thought you were going to go to Thucydides in South park, which is where would have been fascinating. I would have tried to find that episode. But really, so. So I guess what I'm saying is, you know, Thucydides talks about the heart of school, but what was Thucydides school? And it was really tragic Greek playwrights. And so that's really what I'm going to talk about as a metaphor for what a staff is going to do to thwart creative thinking.

[Dr. Wendy Whitman Cobb]

Oh, I love it.

[Lieutenant General Jason R. Armagost]

Catalytic thinking. Things that we need them to do to challenge and challenge the assumptions that. That are laid out before them and that are actually institutionalized staff work as

[Dr. Wendy Whitman Cobb]

a Greek TR tragedy.

[Lieutenant General Jason R. Armagost]

Yes, it is. It absolutely is.

[Colonel Corey Holland]

What do you mean by catalytic thinking?

[Lieutenant General Jason R. Armagost]

So that, in my mind, is what a SAS graduate brings actually to the staff, which is they have these buckets of knowledge right. Where they've now been trained in critical thinking and in ways of approaching deeper understanding and then making it into something different right through. Through that staff. And so by catalytic or catalysis, what I need them to do is actually to think and lead. And so in doing that, they are joining that staff and forming that staff as they bring that bucket of knowledge they have and that different way of thinking.

[Colonel Corey Holland]

Outstanding. Now, you've held tactical, operational and strategic assignments. So when would you say that you first started thinking strategically rather than tactically? And how would you parse those two different thinking styles out?

[Lieutenant General Jason R. Armagost]

Okay. Yeah, great. No, that's great. It actually plays back into what I'm going to talk about on the staff where historically I've been in for 34 years. And I can look back and say, okay, these were maybe opportunities where I was forced out of a tactical expertise scenario and had to think, I would argue, operationally first, what do those integrated tactical capabilities and thoughts become in a larger joint or integrated environment? But then strategically, I would say the first real opportunity I had to do that or I was coached through that was actually at Stanford as a fellow, an SDE fellow in 2010, 2011. And that's mainly because of the people I was exposed to and I chose who I chose to expose myself to. I spent a lot of time with Victor Davis Hansen as a Hoover Fellow. I spent most of my time actually with one of my favorite writers, who's Tobias Wolf, who's actually in the English department or the creative writing. He led the Stegner Fellows there. And so spending time with them actually transformed kind of a more tactical, historical reading approach to bigger thoughts about power in the movements of history and strategy.

[Dr. Wendy Whitman Cobb]

Yeah, I find this really fascinating because General Saltzman, who we had on it, was a history major and you're an English major. And so this, you know, I think this is a very interesting theme for our general officers in particular, that they have a very diverse, perhaps non traditional, you know, the background, especially in terms of education that you wouldn't necessarily expect.

[Lieutenant General Jason R. Armagost]

Yeah.

[Dr. Wendy Whitman Cobb]

What do you think? What's. Is there something there? Am I, am I catching something on? What is it about that sort of liberal arts history background? Do you think that that helps this sort of strategic approach?

[Lieutenant General Jason R. Armagost]

Well, my argument would be a liberal arts approach to leadership is actually, it has been kind of argument, you know, arguably the, the school of leadership. I started out as a math major at the Air Force Academy and I really liked math and I still like math, but I read a book called the Closing of the American Mind in the fall of 89 when I was a brand new sophomore.

[Dr. Wendy Whitman Cobb]

Very interesting time.

[Lieutenant General Jason R. Armagost]

It was a very interesting time.

[Colonel Corey Holland]

Right.

[Lieutenant General Jason R. Armagost]

And so the wall was just about to come down in November of 89. But it was also kind of a controversial book at the time, but I just found it fascinating. And that's how I decided I was going to become an English major rather than a math major. And that book influenced my reading journey from that day forward. And I've actually returned to it a couple times and recommended it to younger officers as well.

[Dr. Wendy Whitman Cobb]

That's great. I was originally a theater major for political science, so I have non traditional backgrounds for the wind.

[Colonel Corey Holland]

Yes.

[Dr. Wendy Whitman Cobb]

So that's one book that seems to have shaped you the Closing of the American Mind. Are there any others that sort of shaped your intellectual journey and in the course of your career?

[Lieutenant General Jason R. Armagost]

Oh my gosh, yes. So I would say again, it tracks back to. And I had actually had to come up with this when I was an air officer commanding at the Air Force Academy. After my for ide, I did University of Colorado counseling degree to become an AOC at the academy, which I really enjoyed. But because cadets saw me reading, they often asked, hey, what should I read? Right. And so I kind of had to come up with a little bit of a program because everyone is different, right? And you need to understand what they're actually interested in, where they are in a reading journey. Some there's experienced readers, there's inexperienced readers, there's those just kind of asking, right? And so I kind of came up with a framework that I think worked pretty well where I would ask them, what's something in history that interests you or a person in history that interests you? And generally it's much easier if you can find somebody who's kind of a world historical figure, you know, a Churchill or an Elizabeth the First or, you know, Pericles or something like that, and go back and say, okay, now, so how do you build around understanding how that world historical figure thinks and operated in that dynamic time? So I tell them to start out with a general or narrative history, something that has to be almost like a bestseller. Don't dig into the archives at a library and hope that you're going to find some revelation in some obscure academic book from the 1950s, right? So find something that's actually tells a story and tells it well first so you get a sense of that history. Then actually go and find a historical, I would call it a literary historical fiction or a novel that puts you in that scenario that brings your presence to that history that you now possess. So that'd be second. And then thirdly, I would find preferably a memoir. If that person had written a memoir, that would be where I would start. Or I would Start with a literary biography of that person. Because what that does then is it shows you now you have that historical knowledge. You have having kind of lived through that environment. Now you can bring to that individual those thoughts and the context. The context, right. And for that memoir, for that biography, and then the real capper on this. And I think this is how you become a lifetime reader, because you just find how rich the world is. Go read what they were reading. Kind of like Thucydides, right? About the plays, the tragic plays. Go read what they were reading that made them who they were after the memoir. And so I think that has. People have come back to me over time and said that framework worked for them.

[Colonel Corey Holland]

Yeah, that is a fantastic way to introduce folks. And I had never really thought about that, because when people ask me what

[Lieutenant General Jason R. Armagost]

I'm reading, I'll just tell them what

[Colonel Corey Holland]

I'm reading, what I'm reading without any further thoughts or Clausewitz. Sorry. We got Thucydides out in the first, like, 80 seconds. So, you know, we gotta bring Uncle Carl in as well. So we talked a little bit about the advice that you're gonna give to the SAS students. Is there anything that you would say to them about balancing sort of the theory that they've been studying all year with the operational practicality? Oftentimes our students will say, well, you know, in the real Air Force, as if this isn't the real Air Force.

[Lieutenant General Jason R. Armagost]

Right.

[Colonel Corey Holland]

But there is that sort of dividing line between, okay, we're. You're taking a year, and it's not a year off, but it is a year away from operational concerns to really dive deep into history, theory and those sorts of things. How do they balance what they've learned here with the operational problems that they're going to have in the. In the operational force?

[Lieutenant General Jason R. Armagost]

So this goes back to, again, how I found my way to kind of not obscure, but different types of reading like. So, philosophy, I think, is fascinating. It's one of the things that I'm really drawn to, having had the history and the literary background now. But then the philosophy really kind of can enrich that. And so Nietzsche said that essentially every argument comes down to that between Plato and Thucydides. And so ideology, theory versus in the world, philosophy. Right. And so it is really important, I think, actually, that these graduates don't go to their next assignment or their next assignment after they command or wherever it is and become the professor in the room. Right. They have to have that presence and that knowledge that they bring with them. But they have to be in the room there and transition in their own minds for others that theory into utility and into the leadership, actually. And so ask me how I know this is because things I've read when I was younger as a field grade officer, I was very passionate about or I was very excited about something. And maybe that excitement doesn't translate directly for someone. Right. If you start talking about the depths of Clausewitz and on war and people are looking at the brick across the desk, you've maybe lost them in the conversation. So you have to really be in the world with that theory.

[Colonel Corey Holland]

Yeah. And I had a similar situation when I was the director of operations. I thought, oh, I'm going to bring the, bring the knowledge forth. And I had all of my ADOs, my assistant directors of operation, had them all read Part of the Landscape of History by John Lewis Gaddis, which is one of my favorite books.

[Lieutenant General Jason R. Armagost]

It's a thin little book.

[Colonel Corey Holland]

It is thin.

[Lieutenant General Jason R. Armagost]

Right.

[Colonel Corey Holland]

And I was just like, okay, yeah, you know, it's 40 page. Oh, they hated me. Yeah. And, and it just, it felt, it felt, fell completely flat. And that was, you know, my fault for not reading the room correctly and thinking that they would be looking at this, looking at this the same way that I looked at it as an opportunity as opposed to, oh my God, the do just gave me homework.

[Lieutenant General Jason R. Armagost]

Yeah, well, and that does, so that does track back into the word catalysis that I talked about about one of the messages that I'm bringing for the graduates. It has to translate into leadership, actually. And, and you can very quickly, you know, put a blank look on someone's face if you start preaching to them essentially the theory. Right. So you just have to take great care in knowing how you're applying it, I think.

[Colonel Corey Holland]

So when I went, went through Sam's, they said in on the staff, the first one to mention Clausewitz loses.

[Lieutenant General Jason R. Armagost]

Yeah.

[Colonel Corey Holland]

You know, so yes, that, that informs everything but you cannot bring up because that's the, you know, you're going to lose the argument here to turn everybody off. Yeah.

[Lieutenant General Jason R. Armagost]

It's like, it's, it's the, it's the opposite, it's the ideological opposite of the Hitler argument. The first one to say Hitler loses.

[Colonel Corey Holland]

Right. Yep.

[Lieutenant Colonel Rachel Reynolds]

Right.

[Dr. Wendy Whitman Cobb]

Well, I think this is interesting because, you know, I get from a sense of this discussion already that you value intellectual curiosity.

[Lieutenant General Jason R. Armagost]

Absolutely.

[Dr. Wendy Whitman Cobb]

But I think that's also. But, you know, I think maybe the challenge is inspiring that in others.

[Lieutenant General Jason R. Armagost]

Yes, yeah, absolutely. And so those are the three things. So, so the three things I want them to bring of Themselves from this experience actually is curiosity. So that is, it's, it's a little. It's not. They have this toolkit that they can reach into, but curiosity is not that. Curiosity is what others possess and are interested in actually hearing about from you as well. So curiosity, creativity, and then catalysis are the three things.

[Dr. Wendy Whitman Cobb]

So this has been obviously a challenge at here for past year plus, and that is the challenge of AI.

[Lieutenant General Jason R. Armagost]

Yeah.

[Dr. Wendy Whitman Cobb]

And you know, in when people, studies have shown repeatedly, when people rely on that, they do lose a degree of critical thinking skills and sort of that creative process when you're allowing the machine to essentially do your work for you. So how might, you know, how might you do you think about, you know, how AI sort of challenges us in those realms and, you know, how. How do we get the best of AI without losing that creative human element?

[Lieutenant General Jason R. Armagost]

So I think like, so, okay, I'll give an example. So I have two kids still in college. I have one who's a rising senior and then one who's a rising junior in college. And so I think about this from their perspective as well, what I want them to have when they leave their college experience. And it's not the ability to ask good questions of an AI, which is argue what they would argue probably against. That is that's a form of critical thinking in and of itself. Okay, not really. I think that's pretty superficial. But what I want them to be able to bring is the ability to say, oh, if I'm preparing for a speech, what was the name of. I use AI like, kind of like a search engine to say, okay, the city Dionysia was where the tragic poets competed for victory amongst the Athenians. And so explain to me maybe where did that come from and how did it come about? Right. And that's fascinating. So that provides information back into a critically thinking question about how something formed. For example, Garry Kasparov actually wrote about this. Well, the chess grandmaster who said how he saw this going forward most effectively is almost like a centaur, he said, where a human, you know, you have the horse that is the AI horse body and a human mind that is able to join with that horse body and do different things together. But, but that requires that human mind and that critical thinking as a vessel for AI.

[Dr. Wendy Whitman Cobb]

Yeah, I think it's really been a challenge for us here and generally in education because we do see our students leaning more heavily into it. And I always believe that good writers are good readers.

[Lieutenant General Jason R. Armagost]

Yes.

[Dr. Wendy Whitman Cobb]

And.

[Lieutenant General Jason R. Armagost]

And good writers are good thinkers.

[Dr. Wendy Whitman Cobb]

Yes. And so, you know, but it all the foundation is that reading. And so when you start to rely on, on these other outside tools to help you out in that, we lose a, a degree of creativity.

[Lieutenant General Jason R. Armagost]

Yeah. So I would, I would offer the illusion that the, the mind is a muscle. In that sense, you cannot AI your way to mental fitness or intellectual fitness, just like you can't AI your way to fiscal fitness. There is work required. You have to be a vessel into which things can be poured and brought

[Dr. Wendy Whitman Cobb]

forth and be willing in that process as well. Yeah.

[Colonel Corey Holland]

And that's sort of the thing that goes hand in hand, I think with the intellectual curiosity is the intellectual humility.

[Lieutenant General Jason R. Armagost]

Yes.

[Colonel Corey Holland]

That's one of my favorite questions at comps to hear is like, what changed your mind? So for you, what book or article or argument did you go into and go no, I believe a. And and then come out on the other side and go, ooh, I was wrong. Or I, I need to add this. What, what, what sticks out as something that changed your mind?

[Lieutenant General Jason R. Armagost]

So that's interesting. And I would, I would actually challenge the question for myself because I do that kind of naturally. Right. So, so if somebody like Nietzsche tells me that every argument comes down to that between Plato and Thucydides, I'll actually go read both. And so I intentionally approach things with a kind of a questioning mindset. And so I would say probably I would start with the closing of the American Mind, which, which was the first thing that brought me to this. Wait a second. The world might be slightly askew from what I presumed it was, but having that, how do we bracket the approach? And this is actually what I was thinking about with planning, that sas our ASG graduates, what we need from them. How do you bound on on both sides the planning effort? Because certainly a singular approach or a techno technical capabilities based approach is going to get you an answer, but it is not, is not a beautiful strategic answer.

[Colonel Corey Holland]

So along those same lines, what argument or assumption that's kind of in vogue in the strategic studies community would you say we're getting wrong, that we need to have a different perspective on?

[Lieutenant General Jason R. Armagost]

I don't know what's in vogue. So that's fascinating. But, but I would say this, I would say here's what I think we as humans naturally get wrong. And it's something I'm very kind of. I don't know if I'm alert to it or if I'm, I've been snake bit by it so many times. We get very excited as a species about the next big thing, whether it's AI, whether it is drones, whether it is information opera, you know, pick. Pick a topic, pick an actual topic that you all have in your syllabus as courses. Right. We get very excited about those things and we have people that are very deep knowledge on those things. And, and when that becomes the singular approach, which is what you all are trying to do in sas, which is not do that. Right. Bring these tools, but. But then have them interact with each other in a way that produces something different. That is what I am most concerned about. And so not knowing what's in vogue, I'm very suspicious of what's in vogue.

[Colonel Corey Holland]

Well, it's the new hot.

[Lieutenant General Jason R. Armagost]

Whatever.

[Colonel Corey Holland]

The new hotness is, whatever. I like to say it's the fairy dust that you sprinkle on all problems when you don't know what the next step is, is. Oh, and then we're going to multi domain it.

[Lieutenant General Jason R. Armagost]

Right, Right.

[Colonel Corey Holland]

Okay. Yep. Great.

[Dr. Wendy Whitman Cobb]

That's technological determinism. It's not letting the technology drive our decisions and our thinking. We need to reverse that equation.

[Lieutenant General Jason R. Armagost]

Yes, yes. And which, so that actually, that brings up kind of how I got to this as well, because I think that has been something since I've been a general officer bringing on new systems like the B21, for example. I really spent a lot of time. I got. I don't even remember how I got. I don't. I'm not going to call a rabbit hole. It was a world through a rabbit hole that became very interesting to me. But a very fascinating discussion over a long period of time between Martin Heidegger and Ernst Junger, who. Ernst Younger, one of the most fascinating guys in my mind out of World War I, who should have been killed like 12 times and all quiet on the Western Front. Erik Maria Remarque fought, I think for two months. Ernst Younger fought for the duration of the war. I think he wrote a better book in Storm of Steel, certainly a more thoughtful and philosophical book, less ideological. But then he had a follow on series of letters and exchanges with Martin Heidegger that was fascinating. And it was about technology and what technology means in this new world after World War I and which is now kind of the environment in which we live.

[Colonel Corey Holland]

It's back.

[Lieutenant General Jason R. Armagost]

It's back.

[Dr. Wendy Whitman Cobb]

Well, I mean, yeah, given your experience in Ukraine, I mean, you see a lot of the echoes of World War I and.

[Lieutenant General Jason R. Armagost]

Absolutely.

[Dr. Wendy Whitman Cobb]

And the technology doesn't seem to matter.

[Lieutenant General Jason R. Armagost]

No, it doesn't. In fact, my experience with the Ukrainians and with all the nations that had come together to assist, you know, for the Security Assistance Group was just that. It was. This was very much a World War I like artillery, metaphorical artillery, battle of limited movement and attrition. And so regardless of how you brought drones in, regardless of how, what technical capability was brought to bear, it was playing out just in that way, like World War I. Yeah.

[Dr. Wendy Whitman Cobb]

That's fascinating. You've actually mentioned a lot of books. I would love to see your library, by the way.

[Lieutenant General Jason R. Armagost]

Oh, it's very messy.

[Dr. Wendy Whitman Cobb]

Well, you know.

[Colonel Corey Holland]

Yes.

[Dr. Wendy Whitman Cobb]

Have you seen one of our offices?

[Colonel Corey Holland]

Of course. I'm going to close the door to my office. I don't think you need to see that, sir.

[Dr. Wendy Whitman Cobb]

If there was a book that you wanted all of the lieutenants coming into Global Strike Command to read, what would it be?

[Lieutenant General Jason R. Armagost]

So I tend to, when I, when I, when I recommend books like that. This, this is a great question. And it's, it's actually really important to me that they can actually go do it.

[Dr. Wendy Whitman Cobb]

You do. You don't want to set them Thucydides straight off the bat, right?

[Lieutenant General Jason R. Armagost]

No, no, no, no. You have to kind of draw them in. Right. But I read this when I was a lieutenant and it was very influential for me. I was a young F16 pilot in Japan, Misawa, Japan. And at the BX, right, which was all you had, kind of Little America, Right. There was a paperback copy of War Fighting, which was a Marine Corps document you can get on PDF for free. And the commandant of the Marine Corps was Alfred M. Gray. And so a lieutenant. What that brought to me was little slight mentions of Sun Tzu, little slight mentions of Thucydides, but it was here's how to be as a lieutenant. Right. And War Fighting as the basis for that and showing that the intellectual component of that, which we sometimes I think, suffer from in our youth in the Air Force, our young officers in the Air Force, because we are so technically driven, so capabilities driven, and it is hard and serious business to learn how to be an expert in the systems that the Air Force has. But that being said, again, that's a great place to start, that little War fighting document. It's 100 pages. It is useful immediately as a leader, it's useful as a thinker, and it drives them into other areas that they might find interest in.

[Colonel Corey Holland]

That's fantastic. So we are starting a separate series. It's going to be a series.

[Dr. Wendy Whitman Cobb]

Series in a series.

[Colonel Corey Holland]

A series in a series. So the books to Battles is going to have an assignment for our readers and it's. Or for our listeners, and it's going to be a fiction series that highlights strategic issues. We've got a syllabus already. We're going to be putting it out with this episode and we're going to sort of tack it on at the end. What book would you add?

[Lieutenant General Jason R. Armagost]

Oh, I know immediately what I would add because I just read it about a month ago and I loved it. It's called Glorious Exploits by Ferdia Lenin. He's an Irish guy. So picture this. So picture the Sicilian expedition. The Athenians have lost. They are imprisoned. They're prisoners of war in a quarry.

[Colonel Corey Holland]

Right.

[Lieutenant General Jason R. Armagost]

That is a makeshift prison because they can't escape it. And this novel is written in the lingo and the language of modern Dublin. So it's like a Guy Ritchie script, but it's a couple of Syracusans who decide they want to stage a play using the Athenians. Because in Plutarch and Thucydides both there's made mention of the Syracusans who were kind of fascinated by Athenian culture and were very interested in the tragic plays. They would go give food and water to those who could recite passages from Euripides or Aeschylus. And so that's what the novel's about.

[Dr. Wendy Whitman Cobb]

Oh, wow.

[Lieutenant General Jason R. Armagost]

And it is really good.

[Colonel Corey Holland]

I'm going to have to step up my game because I was just going to say like Ender's game or, you know, so I really need to step up my game on that one. So Glorious Exploits. All right. I'm definitely.

[Dr. Wendy Whitman Cobb]

So you read that a month ago. What are you reading now?

[Lieutenant General Jason R. Armagost]

Oh, gosh. So I actually, I'm reading Euripides now because that was the thrust of it and I hadn't read Euripides for quite a while, actually probably 15 years. So I'm going back and rereading the Dieb and the Trojan Women and those are the two central plays that they stage in the novel.

[Dr. Wendy Whitman Cobb]

Interesting. Yeah, that's awesome.

[Colonel Corey Holland]

So, sir, as we wrap up here, I want to ask you what strategic issue do you think that the United States currently should be focusing on more? What do we. What do we. What do we. Yeah, what are we missing? What do we need?

[Lieutenant General Jason R. Armagost]

So from my perspective in Global Strike Command, and this is, you know, you from where you sit is where you stand. We are in a transformational period with. With recapitalization of long range strike capabilities that we've needed, we've known we've needed for quite some time. Right. The B52 was supposed to be replaced by the B2 in the early 90s, mid-90s, with 132 B2s. If we had 132 B2s today, we would be in a very different place from a long range strike perspective. But we don't. And so now we're kind of in this transitional world where real opportunity now exists as well, with digital engineering, modularity, all the things that are now available in ways they weren't in the 80s and 90s when the B2 was around. And so my fear though is that we are bringing all of the bad assumptions from the global war on terror and the thinking around the global war on terror and actually what air superiority means as a result of raising a generation of people who had complete freedom of maneuver. And so that approach is something I struggle against as a trying to bring on the next generation of capabilities into that environment. We have to think differently. We have to take our ASG grads and catalyze our staffs to think differently about the actual problems.

[Colonel Corey Holland]

So what does air superiority mean in a world that has one way FPV drones and plethora of missiles? The Shahid, what is, what is air superiority mean?

[Lieutenant General Jason R. Armagost]

I'll give you a quick example, I'll give you a quick example from Epic Fury and how I literally had to change the planning staff's language to get them to think differently. Every day during the map brief where we were talking about what's the campaign looking like, right? And what is the actual mission going to look like? They would brief me. The suppression of enemy air defense plan, the seed plan. And the point of air superiority that I'm going to make is about kill chains actually. And so I forced them to no longer use the word seed plan. I wanted them to say what is the counter kill chain support plan? Because a seed plan implied traditional, traditional engagement sequences, traditional thinking about the mechanics of how someone is defending their airspace. But that's not the world we live in. So how do we do a counter kill chain support to accomplish a mission to hold at risk targets and to give commanders time through our actions and the success of those missions. And so counter kill chain support is actually something, and I think that has to be brought to bear on the air superiority question.

[Colonel Corey Holland]

And then there's the counter, counter kill chain so that we can defend our airspace. And because the second part of air superiority that I always try and harp on is it's not just us being able to maneuver if they can maneuver as well. There's not superiority in one place, it's priority. And now we need to deny the adversary the, the access, the control or

[Lieutenant General Jason R. Armagost]

the exploitation of that domain, which actually tracks back to the formation of the Air Force. In my opinion, with, with what Hap Arnold said, which was to have an Air Force that is second to none, you have to have two things, unmatched range and unmatched striking power. And so in that environment in which you have to have the ability to hold at risk despite this short range artillery like now, arguably, you know, you're going to get much larger range out of a Shaheed, for example, but you kind of have this local approach to the challenges of the fight versus the ability to influence from afar and to strike with meaningful and deep and consequential effects.

[Dr. Wendy Whitman Cobb]

I think we. Well, Corey already asked you another last question, but I'm gonna, I'm gonna do my last, last, I promise question. What are the operational problems that Area University can be looking at to help solve them for the Air Force and the commands that, that you are looking at?

[Lieutenant General Jason R. Armagost]

I, I would say we have to return to first principles. And it goes back to my comment about half Arnold right there. We get trapped. I say we, not you, but we, the Air Force, get trapped in these, these technical tactical battles about. If we get this capability and we apply it in this way, it will solve this problem. But the problem is nobody's talking about what's five, 10 years. What does that mean in five to 10 years? Because we're really good at solving problems of the last war in our own minds. And the way I saw that play out in planning and map briefings again is I started saying the three one is the map, not the territory. Just because you know three one better than anyone else and you know how these things integrate and what the meaning of a technical capability is, that doesn't mean that's the fight you're in. And just randomly applying that doesn't work. So returning to first principles, understanding what it means to be able to hold a target at risk, to find it, to fix it, all of the fundamental things that really you all are talking about through theory, but then the application of history as well.

[Dr. Wendy Whitman Cobb]

Awesome. That's some good thesis ideas for next year's class.

[Colonel Corey Holland]

It is. Thank you so much for being here, sir. This has been a fantastic conversation.

[Lieutenant General Jason R. Armagost]

All right, thank you.

[Colonel Corey Holland]

Thank you all for sticking around. And we have a different guest now. Lieutenant Colonel Rachel Reynolds is back with us. Welcome back, Rachel.

[Lieutenant Colonel Rachel Reynolds]

Thank you so much.

[Colonel Corey Holland]

And because 152 books in one year isn't enough for people like us, which will remain, I think we're not going to label it.

[Dr. Wendy Whitman Cobb]

No.

[Colonel Corey Holland]

Right, but, but people like us, 152 books is just not enough for one year. And Wendy, you and I talked about doing some kind of a fiction series, right?

[Dr. Wendy Whitman Cobb]

Yeah, it's something we've talked about. And then Rachel came to our rescue.

[Colonel Corey Holland]

Right. And as a colonel, I think that, you know, I'm an ideas guy. Right. But you know, Rachel came in in her first year here and I think might have been the Ironman as far as the number of courses that you taught and developed an entire syllabus just for us. Just for us.

[Lieutenant Colonel Rachel Reynolds]

That's right. So. So I haven't decided on the title, so everybody's gonna have to help us out before we kick off the first instance of it. Is this the Fiction a Day club or is it the SAS Literary staff ride? But I'll tell you what it is, which is a 10 book, effectively short course. We'll kind of release it, I think, as a mini series that takes each of our SAS courses and exemplifies it with one book from fiction. Some of the genres are going to be high fantasy or sci fi or historical fiction, but something that really encapsulates that course. So if it's air power history, what's a great book? There are so many to choose from, but what's a great book that captures some of those themes or the frictions or the tensions that the students are reading about in the academia or academic literature, but brings it storyline, character development, and maybe, maybe occasionally a little more heart and soul than some of our tomes that we typically read.

[Dr. Wendy Whitman Cobb]

That's true. And I think what's exciting about this is we're sharing it with our audience so that over the course of the next year we can share this with them and really sort of take the sas. For the past year, Corey and I, you, you and I have been discussing, you know, what SAS is, what our courses is, are what being here is all about. But this really allows us to take that message forward and allows our audience to experience the year in a different way with us.

[Lieutenant Colonel Rachel Reynolds]

That's right. So if you aren't already part of a book club or you want to add another one to your repertoire, keep an eye out for the SAS website. We'll hopefully have a Books to Battles tab up there, but then we'll also upload effectively the syllabus for our 10 book club course and you can kind of read along with us as we publish episodes that cover each of these fiction strategy thematic books over the year.

[Colonel Corey Holland]

As a fan of fiction and how that can really bring sort of this these ideas and these concepts home. Because I, I, I honestly believe that, you know, human beings need a narrative to be able to remember something, have it really absorb. And so these narratives are going to be breaking, are going to be great. But can you give us a couple of highlights? What are a few books that you're particularly looking forward?

[Lieutenant Colonel Rachel Reynolds]

Okay. I'm so excited about several of the books that are on the list and full transparency. There are some of the books on the list I haven't read and are just coming by recommendation to me. So one of the ones that I want to highlight and this will be a book that mirrors our Air power History and Total War course. It's called codename Verity. It's by Elizabeth Wine and I'll note this and a couple other ones are some fabulous audiobooks for folks who like to listen to their books. This is beautifully narrated. This is a great story about non kinetic uses of air power. It is a story about total war. It is two characters, two women pilots who are in the UK Air Transport Auxiliary, which was kind of their parallel to the Wasp pilots in the US which also is a fabulous organization. They were known for their versatility to be able to fly, fly literally any aircraft, often with no radio, no navigation, no weapon system. And they were just ferrying them around England and in some cases across the continent. These characters get into a really difficult struggle when one of them is captured in occupied France. And their story is a beautiful friendship and it is this very micro level where over or o' Brien might tell you the big picture, the story of the war. This is a very human level of, of what that war was like for them.

[Dr. Wendy Whitman Cobb]

I've been reading ahead so I no shame anybody here. This is surprising and I've read this on vacation a few weeks ago and it was heartbreaking.

[Lieutenant Colonel Rachel Reynolds]

It is a touching story, it's a tragic story and yeah, no spoilers. But this is a character driven, phenomenal book. I'll drop one more. That's a great one. Another actually another story also about women sort of. This is a very super futuristic. There are two characters, they're kind of feminized in the, in the book, but one is like a post Singularity AI character and one is a post evolutionary organic character. And they are these two factions that are warring across time. The book is called this is how youw Lose the Time War and it is tied to our cyber and info course because it is about subversion and getting to your enemy before they can get to you. And how do you set conditions in the past to affect what outcomes will happen in the future. I love this book. Also a phenomenal audio listen for folks who want to do that then.

[Dr. Wendy Whitman Cobb]

I haven't read it yet, so you're looking at, you guys are looking at me like expecting me. I haven't read it, but it does remind me very much of Doctor who at the time. War.

[Colonel Corey Holland]

Well, and you know, that's only eight. That's the eighth book that we're going to read. So I'm surprised that you have not yet gotten there before even the official kickoff. Well, this looks fantastic. I actually haven't read any of the books on here. My fiction reading tends more toward Star wars novelizations and maybe in a season

[Dr. Wendy Whitman Cobb]

two of this miniseries.

[Colonel Corey Holland]

I think we're going to absolutely have to get into that. And we're also, we might add one book to this that General Armagost actually recommended to us in the actual episode, and we'll see how that goes. But overall, what we're looking at doing is having these episodes come out basically on the last Wednesday of every month throughout the school year. And then we will have, you know, the three of us at least on. And maybe one or two folks from around the circle.

[Dr. Wendy Whitman Cobb]

And if you, you know, if we were going to do this on the last Wednesday of the month. So if you, our listeners, have any comments about the book or any questions you might want us to discuss about the books, go ahead and email us. Our email address is at the end of every episode. Just let us know before that last week so we can include your thoughts and comments on the episode.

[Lieutenant Colonel Rachel Reynolds]

That's right. And before the first episode. Everybody's getting a heads up now that you have your first homework assignment, which is the book. The first book which is going to parallel our 601 foundations of strategy course is called the Heroes by Joe Abercrombie. I will say if people look that book up and say, oh, this is part of a series. It's book three in the series. Don't worry, you do not have to have read anything else. It is a standalone story. It is about all the different levels of war strategy operational, down to the tactical foot soldier. And it stands alone as its own, its own struggle for a particular hill in a battle.

[Dr. Wendy Whitman Cobb]

I did read it.

[Lieutenant Colonel Rachel Reynolds]

I can confirm that it's also very long. So get started now.

[Colonel Corey Holland]

All right, Well, I know what I'm going to be doing for the next couple of weeks.

[Dr. Wendy Whitman Cobb]

Then we'll start this the last week, the last Wednesday in July. So you have, oh, roughly two months, months to start reading that's right.

[Colonel Corey Holland]

And in the meantime, we are going to be taking a break. We get about four weeks off this time, so our next class will be coming in at the end of June. And we look forward to Class 36 as we say farewell to Class 35, and we will see you all in July. There it is.

[Dr. Wendy Whitman Cobb]

Thank you for tuning in to Books to Battles. We hope you enjoyed today's discussion. If you liked today's episode, please be sure to like and subscribe and even tell a friend about us. Also, don't forget to send us any questions you'd like answered or suggest future episodes. You can contact [e-mail] edu. For Colonel Corey Holland, I'm Dr. Wendy Whitman Cobb. And don't forget, strategy doesn't stop at the PA.