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- [00:00]
A
All opinions expressed here are ours or our guests and do not necessarily represent the official position of the Department of the Air Force, the Department of Defense, or war, or the United States government.
- [00:18]
B
All right, welcome to a special edition of the Books of Battles podcast. Today we have current students who are about to graduate, we hope, and we'd like to introduce ourselves first so you know who's talking. I am Lacy Coling. I am a Lieutenant Colonel. I'm an aircraft maintenance officer.
- [00:36]
C
I'm Ryan Hess. I'm Also Lieutenant Colonel, U.S. air Force, and I'm a foreign area officer.
- [00:41]
D
I'm Liz Townsend. I'm a Space Operations officer in the Space Force and a Major.
- [00:46]
A
Hey. And I'm Matteo Nataledo, Major, German Luftwaffe, and I'm a flyer by trade. Tornado. Very old aircraft, but still there.
- [00:57]
E
And I'm Cameron Berlin, go by Kanye, Lieutenant Colonel, Air Force Intel Officer.
- [01:03]
B
So, as you can see, we have a lot of different backgrounds here represented in the room, and we hope to give you a little bit of a different perspective of why we all came to sas, what we thought about SAS and what our perspective was like. So, Matteo, if you wouldn't mind kicking us off, why did you come to sas?
- [01:18]
A
Yeah, thank you for this question. And for me, I guess it's a little bit different than for you guys, either Air Force or Space Force. For me, it was a more spontaneous discovery because I had this deliberate decision, career decision that I want to shift from the tactical level of flying in a squadron to a more operational art and strategic decision making area. But I thought I'd do this by attending acsc. So I applied for acse and last year I was allowed to attend acc and that gave me this perfect insight into the US perspective and weaved us kind of into the German decision making. But then during acc, I saw the opportunity of SAS and I looked into the objectives of SAS and the syllabus and I thought, man, this is even a better opportunity to get all the perspectives and all the strategic decisions. So I applied for SAS as well. I convinced my country kind of that this is worthwhile and they should send someone because it's also a lot of money to spend for this. And so, yeah, I convinced them, they convinced the us and now I'm here.
- [02:26]
B
Yeah, we're super thankful that we had the German perspective as well in our class because our stand this year, the country that we visited was Germany. So it was super nice to have Mateo there. Liz, why did you decide to come over to sas?
- [02:39]
D
Yeah, a lot of the same reasons, Matteo. I wanted to become more well rounded. So being a space operations officer, I have a really technical background, but something I really struggle in is history, theory, strategy. So I've spent a lot of my career in the tactical technical fields. And so I knew that, you know, in order to be more well rounded and as I grow up in these, you know, in my career and into more leadership positions, I really need to understand, you know, I need that deliberate, rigorous development for history strategy. And I knew that SAS could provide that all. So I think, really, I want to strengthen my abilities to, you know, critically, think critically at higher levels and not just at the tactical level. But it's been a great year so far. I've learned so much this year.
- [03:18]
B
Yeah, that's really great. Kind of like you, I didn't know a lot about history and theory. One of my favorite quotes that I love to use as an aircraft maintenance officer is that amateurs talk tactics, but professionals talk logistics. And that's attributed to multiple different people. But part of why I decided to come to SAS was really if the air power strategist, if the table is at sas, and if that is where you go to learn the history, to learn the theory, how to apply it, how. How to think like a strategist, then the best place for me to come to help in the aircraft maintenance career field and logistics career field is to come to SAS and to bring that, not only that perspective to the classmates, but for me to learn to be able to take back that to my community, to be able to learn how we can better come to the table with solutions, with strategy, and how to overall think about how we fit into the operational picture. And that's a lot of why I really wanted to come to sas, because this is where some of the best and brightest go. And if that's where the best and brightest go, that's where we need to have aircraft maintenance. It also helped. My husband is also in SAS as well, and mill to mill, it was easy for us to be able to come over together, and we enjoyed that experience.
- [04:27]
D
You just made me think of the quote, five Thucydides. The best are brought up in the heart of schools.
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B
Oh, that is. That's so SASS on the walls here at sas.
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A
Yes.
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B
All right, so also with sas, there are a lot of impressions and perspectives about sas. Haas, can you tell us a little bit about some of your impressions before you came to sas?
- [04:47]
C
Absolutely. Yeah. So I've been lucky enough to have three different bosses who are all SAS grads. And so I was sort of my opinion of SAS was sort of pre shaped by their opinions of sas. And one thing that kind of sticks out in my mind is one of my bosses. He had a picture of him standing next to his stack of books that was taller than he was. And I was like, that is the school for me. Every time I talk about sas, I'm going to always say, I hope you like reading. And I do, in fact, like reading. I'm. I'm probably going to need a break from it at the end of this experience. But. So those were some of the sort of surface level things that really made me think, SaaS is the place for me. But then at a deeper level, each one of those bosses, I noticed that all of them had a sort of different way of thinking. They had a different way of analyzing problems and approaching problems and dissecting problems. And rather than. And as I watched them work their way through some of those issues, I realized, you know what? I want to learn what they've learned. I want to figure out what they figured out. So surface level, I wanted to read a lot, but deeper than that, I wanted to be able to approach problems like I saw other SAS grads approaching problems.
- [05:51]
B
Yeah. And I can definitely attest that Hoss, although he says that he'll probably need a break from reading, him and I both have been reading on the side as well for things that we enjoy. So I'm sure Hoss will continue.
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C
Don't tell anyone that. Reputation to uphold.
- [06:05]
B
I like Hoss, really thought that SAS was a book a day club. That was my initial impressions of it, and I. That was the perspective that I came into it, that we are going to have one book a day. We're going to have to read it, try to synthesize it, and understand what was going on. What I didn't understand or didn't. Wasn't prepared for was that sometimes that's actually a two book a day club. More often than I thought was actually going to happen. But also, I was not ready for the amount of writing. I did not realize that SAS was not only a reading course, but it was a writing course. And I was definitely not prepared for that perspective. Kanye, what was your impressions of saslike?
- [06:46]
E
Yeah. So based on what both of y' all just said about being prepared for the reading, I was actually worried about that part because even though I do love reading and have been an avid reader as well, I've always been very slow. It takes me a while to get through books. So I was very slightly pessimistic, I would say, about my ability to read or one or two books a day. And I will say that the repetition and the process of how to dissect an argument and get through the book was well worth the arduous time of practicing that, because it will pay dividends in the future. I know. So, yeah, first impressions. I was a little scared, a little intimidated.
- [07:27]
C
There is definitely a different difference between the first books and I look at my notes and what I was choosing to focus on and how I was assessing a first book versus at the end, when I knew exactly what I needed to get out of it and exactly what I needed to search for. So there's a palpable difference between the first book and the last.
- [07:41]
B
Yeah, definitely. Liz, what were some of your initial impressions of Sass?
- [07:46]
D
Yeah, I think, like Kanye, I was scared and intimidated. I remember the first day when we were asked, you know, what's your definition of definition of strategy? And I. I didn't feel like I had a clear answer to that. And so this year, you know, reading all the material that we had, you know, and that's intimidating, and it in and of itself, too, to see just the sheer amount of books that we will read. And so it's crazy to think where we are now, having read all those books, just the, you know, synthesizing all the material, making all those connections, and kind of developing the trend lines throughout the book. So, first impressions. I was scared, but now I'm glad it's almost over, definitely.
- [08:18]
B
And we're all working on our current definition of strategy as we prepare for comps. One of the really awesome parts of SAS is the trip. I think everybody would agree the trip is a really educational part. It's also a really great bonding time that we had together. Mateo, can you tell us a little bit about what you thought the most impactful part of the trip was?
- [08:40]
A
Oh, absolutely. Yeah. I love to. So, yeah, you're absolutely right. This trip was really one of the intricate parts of this. When it was first announced, my first thought was, oh, we're going to Germany.
- [08:53]
D
Great.
- [08:53]
A
I think I visited Germany before, but, yeah, no, my second thought was, perfect. We go to Germany, and I can show you around. I show you my country, and I show you the culture and everything. What is Germany about? And so that's why I also volunteered to be one of the PLCs for the trip. And. Yeah, great. But the moment we stepped into Germany and we were stopping at all these locations, I learned, or I realized that there's so much more to Germany than I knew there is. So other than Berlin and Dresden, which were the cities I already visited, we went to interesting places with a combined American and German history. And so I learned a lot about this very rich, diverse, and very often controversial history of my country. So this experience was really enlightening. I'm really happy that we did the trip that I was able to show you my country and learn more. And one place which stood out for me, because as a German, you are always a little bit aware of the history and then you carry it around with you. Was first day, first real day after we landed in Germany, when we went to Buchenwald to the concentration camp. Because it is a very important part of our history. And I try to not forget what happened in the past and carry it with me. And I would say it's a burden I want to carry because it gives me this feeling and this conscious of what it means to be an officer in the armed forces, especially for the German Luftwaffe, for the German armed forces. So when there was this stand about Kristallnacht and US Refugee policy, it gave me this very deep emotional feeling kind of about morals and how bendable morals are and what it means to stick to your morals and to your values and what fragile. How fragile kind of this concept is. And that I also thought about, man, we are living in a democracy, and we can be happy to live in this democracy. And it gave me this feeling of, that's why I'm in the armed forces, and that's why it is worth to fight for democracy. And fighting for democracy is not a one time show or one time thing. It is a constant battle. And yeah, it gave me this feeling of, yes, I'm in the right place, I'm with the right people, and it's worth fighting for.
- [11:33]
B
Yeah, what an impactful, powerful story. Liz, how was your trip?
- [11:40]
D
Yeah, so I also lived in Germany too, for two years. So I was like, oh, great, going back to Germany. But all the places I went to were places I've never been. Similar to you. One of the most. My favorite stands was when we went to Mittelwerk, which was the underground complex where the Nazis produced the V1 and the V2 rockets after the Allied air raids disrupted their other facilities. What made it so powerful to me wasn't just the engineering though, but it was that human cost, as you mentioned. So around 20,000 laborers, you know, died under horrific conditions. They were stuck in these underground tunnels, you know, without sanitation, constant darkness, dust and noise. And so I remember that stand really vividly because it was a day that was rainy and kind of gloomy weather outside. And so the presenter of that stand brought some flowers, and we were able to honor some of the victims. And so it just made that stand very real and very emotional. So I think it highlighted that contrast between tech innovation and then, you know, some of the human elements and the human cost of war. And so that's why I think it's really important that we study history.
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B
Yeah, that's a great perspective. Kanye, how was the trip for you? What was your most impactful time there?
- [12:47]
E
Yeah, similar to both Liz and Mateo. I also lived in Germany, and German was what I studied in college. So I too, learned so much by actually going to all the places that I hadn't visited visited when I lived in Germany. I think the most impactful was Spinefurt and the ball bearing raids, because I'd never really spent any time analyzing the actual targeting strategy of the strategic bombing raids. So this gave me insight into the industrial web theory and how intel played into the targeting strategy. And I'd never gotten to look at that before to see what worked and didn't work and what bad assumptions we maybe made from going purely after ball bearings, thinking that that would just destroy the entire web.
- [13:34]
B
Yeah, I learned so much on that portion. It's funny, I think the majority of us, probably half the class, has a selfie with the pigs statues that are in Schweinfurt. That was a pretty interesting thing to see all around the town. Hoss, did you have anything that was super impactful for you?
- [13:51]
C
I mean, I did. I share a lot of the same ones as you guys. But what I will say is because it might seem like the trip was somewhat depressing. And so I just want to clarify that while there were some very serious moments and there were a lot of impactful moments, we also had a blast. Almost. Almost everybody did. You know, I remember one moment where I kind of took a night to go out to dinner, and then I walked around Weimar, which was one of our first stops, and I just kind of got to take in the culture and the scenery and the. The nightlife, and it was just a really, really cool experience. And that experience got repeated. We came together as a class. We kind of gelled. We came together in a lot of ways with our faculty as well, and people were bouncing thesis ideas and just bigger ideas off of them. So while there were some very serious impactful moments, there were also a lot of incredibly fun and enjoyable moments.
- [14:37]
B
Yeah, definitely. Not only was the culture awesome in Weimar, but also the ice cream, which I think we all got pretty much every night while we were there.
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E
Pizza.
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B
And the pizza.
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A
And I have to say that I miss it and I'm looking forward to go get some ice cream.
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B
I will be visiting you.
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D
Yeah, I hope so. I hope so.
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B
All that the trip is such an impactful big part of sas, but another process that is also a very big part of SAS and very influential on our impressions of SAS is the thesis process. Hoss, would you tell us a little bit about your overall impressions? Hoss was also the first person in our class to ring the bell, so he is a great person to go ahead and tell us about the thesis.
- [15:18]
C
So what I will say is I think everyone kind of had the feeling in the beginning that we were sort of alone and unafraid when it came, or maybe alone and very afraid when it came to the thesis. But the thesis process that Lacy's talking about is in fact a deliberate process where you've got your topic and then you have a prospectus and all of these things. The faculty are there to. To try to hold your hand a little bit and help you through thinking through your ideas and how you want to write things. And eventually you get assigned an advisor and your advisor is going to help you through and really try to channel your ideas into something that is. That is readable. And so what I will say is that the process, albeit difficult and daunting, is also deliberate and something that you will not be left alone for. As far as one of the reasons why I think I was able to finish with as much speed as I did, and especially if you are from the class of 36 and listening, some of the pieces of advice that I would give are, number one, your topic should be something that you're interested in, but also it should be something that you are able to research without. Without having to really go above and beyond. Of course, if you really are passionate about something, then absolutely, you know, go and get the research for that thing. But just keep in mind that there are some topics that are incredibly difficult to research. And my topic was actually fairly easy to research as far as access to the sources. So that's one thing. And then the other piece of it is just sort of a simple time management piece where I'm not going to. No one can tell you how to do it, but you should find a routine that works for you where you can kind of just chip away at it very regularly and gradually, and that'll be sort of the ticket to success. And I think, by and large we've had about half the class right now has already rung the bell, finished their theses, and I think everybody else is on track to get done before we graduate.
- [17:06]
B
We definitely will all be done before we graduate. I have full faith and confidence of everybody in the class of 35.
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C
I did not mean to make that sound like a hypothetical.
- [17:17]
B
I also totally agree with you about the process. And the best advice that I received about the thesis process coming into this, not only from the faculty, but also from previous students, was to really be passionate about the topic that you're writing. I was incredibly thankful for the passion that I have for my thesis when I was very deep into research, very deep into writing, and I was really struggling with that writing piece. When you're. You're 20 pages in and you're like, I do not know how I'm going to get to the end result of this. But thankfully, because I was so interested in my topic, it was able. I was able to continue on and it really motivated me, motivated me for that. So also with the thesis process, I think the second hardest piece for me definitely would have been topic selection. And topic selection, I think is something that is very personal for everybody. But also it's very similar for the same process. There are advisors in the beginning, will talk a lot with you about different topics, things that you're interested in. And you don't have to come into SAS with like, this is what I want to write about. I would actually recommend don't come in with this is my thesis, because then the first two courses, 606, will kind of shape a little bit about where you want to go. But the faculty and your advisor will definitely sit down with you and talk through some of that. And you'll be surprised about how much you learn about when you just talk about a topic first in more general terms before you narrow it down for that. My advisor, which I would argue is definitely the best advisor, Dr. Tom Hughes, was super helpful in sitting down with me and just talking about where I wanted to go and scoping my project that was a big issue, was I definitely wanted to go too far and, and too much into scope and put scoping down as something where I could actually provide something impactful. And I'm really proud of my thesis now and that I was able to write that many pages because I did not think it was possible. But thankfully I was able to ring the bell as well. Liz, how was your thesis process? What was difficult for you?
- [19:13]
D
Yeah, I think you guys have some really great advice on, you know, choosing A topic that you're definitely passionate about. Another thing I thought was challenging is the, the research. You're pulling all these sources, you know, getting all this different material. So it can be really daunting just to start your thesis. So one advice, piece of advice I was given is you don't have to start on chapter one. You know, a lot of the material I had was more of the, like, chapter three level material. So that's where I started. I started my thesis with like the meat and potatoes, like trying to answer my thesis question. So I think it also all needs to relate back to your thesis question. Once you start scoping, you know, all that material, you'll develop your thesis question and so kind of have that question as a mental model to like, know, like every. Everything you should be writing should be geared towards that question. I think that helps scopes you so it doesn't get so crazy.
- [20:00]
B
Yeah, that's great advice. I started with chapter two. Kanye, could you tell us a quick elevator pitch? We'll go around and everybody will tell you what their thesis topic was.
- [20:10]
E
Yeah. So quick elevator pitch for mine was analyzing the Air Force nutrition system. I really wanted to understand why Air Force policy seemed like it wasn't making it down to translating into real action. Right. Because when you look around on base and you see Burger King, you think maybe we're not being set up for success. So I did a policy and process gap analysis to see, like, what's the difference between policy and practice and what can we do to improve the system itself.
- [20:42]
C
Yeah, perfect.
- [20:42]
A
So first of all, since we mentioned that Hoss was the first one with his thesis, I mentioned that I would like to be the last. And I got Manchester on this. So I'm kind of stuck with being the last ancestor.
- [20:54]
B
I don't want to come in midnight.
- [20:55]
A
Yeah, no, no, I said on the 15th, midnight. So, no. But yeah, my pitch. So my thesis is called Building the Phoenix Nest. And it is on the interwar German Luftwaffe, or better not having a Luftwaffe between the interwar, during the interwar period. And it is about the Treaty of Versailles and how Germany was not allowed to have any air power at all, completely stripped of any air force. And so the German thought about how can we still be sufficient equipped or manpower or air power equipment still while we have those limitations. And so they built a purpose driven shadow Luftwaffe. Focus on Bewegungskrieg. So maneuver warfare to get out of this traditional warfare of the trenches of World War I. And they did it by coming up with the structural contingent Theory and having this clandestine organization where they thought about what were the lessons learned from World War I and how should we rebuild the perfect Luftwaffe in case one time we are allowed, legally allowed again to build up the Luftwaffe. And that happened then in 33 and 35 when the Luftwaffe was officially established.
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C
It's a slow elevator.
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D
So my thesis was a biography style thesis on General Mormon Jr. He's most known for being the commander of Air Force Base Command during Desert Storm. But he also rose to the Vice Chief of Staff position in the Air Force. He is also kind of known as the father of the Space Force. So my thesis was arguing that General Moorman helped turn military space from this strategic niche intel capability into really a true war fighting domain. Because of his experience working across intelligence policy and space, he was able to bridge these communities together and show how space could directly support the warfighter, especially during Desert storms. So really his innovations and leadership didn't just prove space mattered, but you know, it drove the changes to what I believe eventually led to the creation of the Space Force.
- [23:02]
C
So I looked at Operation Allies welcome, which was the operation to intake, care for and then rehouse the 80,000 Afghans who fled from Afghanistan in 2021 during the collapse of Kabul. So those 80,000 individuals went to eight different DoD sites, one of which was Task Force Holloman. And to the point of having to scope, originally I was going to talk about all of them and I realized that was not going to work. So I scoped it down to specifically Holloman Air Force Base or Task Force Holloman. And then from there I looked at how Task Force course Holloman was successful, whether or not they were in fact successful. And then I looked at how they operated vis a vis command and control, integration with civilian entities and cultural sensitivity. And then the strategic takeaways from that.
- [23:48]
B
Awesome. For my thesis, I really wanted to talk about aircraft maintenance. I really wanted to look at it from surprise, from an organizational standpoint and how the organizational structure that we have for aircraft maintenance impacts the generation and our sortie capability from a readiness standpoint, but also from a human element and how the actual maintainer on the line, how important that piece is of it. So I looked at it from a historical perspective. I went from trace From World War II, the bombers that we had there starting in the Philippines and the hump and going tracing all the way to present day, and how we structure our Air Force and our specifically aircraft maintenance so that we are able to support sortie generation. So really interesting find for me about how important organizational structure is and how much impact it has had on our community and how much impact it could have if we change that organizational structure in the future. Really, the birth of the specialist from crew chiefs, from General Curtis LeMay. And I would love to explain to you more about specialists and crew chiefs and how important they are anytime. We'll move over to some of our favorite classes as well. We go through a number of courses here at sas, and we. We definitely all have opinions on them and the ones that we like and the ones that are not our favorite. So for our favorite class. Liz, what was your favorite class?
- [25:11]
D
So, as a space operator, I have to say that the space power class
- [25:14]
C
was my thing, contractually obligated to say space.
- [25:17]
D
It was in my comfort. It was in my wheelhouse. I was in my comfort zone. So I, you know, really enjoyed that class. But I think, you know, as operator, I naturally gravitate more towards the tactical level. How do we use our space operations? And this class did help me step out of my comfort zone and move from the tactical level to the strategic level. Like, how are we using space at the strategic level? Which is really what the course demanded. So I think it helped me grow as a thinker and better understand how space fits into the larger strategic problems. I also really enjoyed that we talked a lot about the commercial space space vector throughout the class, because that's something I don't have much. I haven't had much exposure to with my career. So really, I think the course highlighted how the commercial space entity is central to the military space domain as well, both with innovation and in their role for our modern conflict and competition. So it added a layer of complexity that I didn't really fully appreciate before. So overall, I thought the class, though, was really engaging and challenging. It built more on my baseline knowledge and helps me grow and think differently about space altogether.
- [26:22]
B
Well, you stole a little bit of my thunder because space was also my favorite course. Space was just such an interesting course, and going into it, I didn't feel like I had too much knowledge in it. Although I was in Blue Horizons last year and I did focus a lot on space. So I felt like I had some good knowledge coming in. But I agree with you. The commercialization side of space was a really interesting perspective to talk a lot about. We dove very deep into it, and it was nice that there's quite a few people in the class who didn't have a solid foundation in space as well. So we are all able to kind of lean on the space foundation that we had and to talk more and dive deeper into the books, which is part of what I really liked about it. I also thought the books in the space course were some of my favorites on my favorites list. They definitely, almost all of them make the top 10 list. So that's part of why Space is such. Was my favorite. But it's also just really cool and really interesting. Everything that we're doing in space and where we're going. I think space logistics is going to be something that's really interesting. We also got a bonus. Yeah, Rockets. We also got a bonus book in space. Did everybody.
- [27:23]
A
Oh, yes.
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B
Did everybody love their bonus book?
- [27:27]
C
It was fantastic.
- [27:28]
B
Yeah.
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A
Podcast. We did it.
- [27:29]
B
Yep. You'll learn all about that as well in space going forward. I will say, though, that my second favorite course was 601, which is our first course, not 600, but 601, the foundations of. And the reason that that one was my favorite, though, was really my instructor. I had no surprise Dr. Hughes, who's my advisor, and he was really such an important key to me starting at sas. And I am so thankful that he was my first instructor and that, that is why that was my favorite course. And I. I will definitely look fondly back upon that course because of Dr. Hughes. Hoss, what was your favorite course that you had?
- [28:04]
A
I know. Hope it's not space.
- [28:05]
C
No, it is not space. I. I struggled in space, to be honest, so. But, you know, I got through it. But no, my favorite course was irregular warfare. Actually, a couple of reasons. The primary reason is I'm an Africa feo and it's the only course that talks about Africa. So I have to like it in the same way that Liz has to like space. But more importantly, I found the irregular warfare course to be one of the more applicable to current day operations. Obviously, we talk a lot about great power competition against some of our great power rivals. But in a lot of ways, the actual conflicts that we end up fighting tend to be the irregular war asymmetric conflicts. And so I found that to be incredibly interesting when you broke into the sort of dime model, which, you know, is diplomatic information, military and economic. And, you know, we kind of take a break talking about just the military and we talk about the diplomacy and the information and the economic. And then also the next course is information and cyber warfare. And so you kind of get a continuation from talking about irregular warfare, and then you go into information warfare, which I really liked that sort of continuity. So irregular warfare was my favorite. And also shout out to my irregular warfare instructor, Dr. Svedin, who was absolutely wonderful the entire course.
- [29:19]
A
I have to interject here. Right. We are here at an Air Force school, so I'm shocked that you did not say air power.
- [29:27]
B
Air power in limited war or in total war.
- [29:30]
A
For me, it was air power in total war. And it is a little bit similar to the Germany trip. Dark topics with city bombing, with firebombing of Japan. But I really enjoyed this class because of you guys, because of the class discussions. They were really another level in the seminar. Very controversial, but perfect dynamics. Always on a level where you learn something new, new perspectives. So I think Airpower in Total War was one of the classes which give me the best impression. And I have to do a shout out here as well. Dr. Muller is the best tutor and instructor. His historical expertise just unmatched. And every morning, stepping into the class, of all the stuff he brings into the room and sets up his little showcase. It's like stepping into a museum.
- [30:17]
B
Yeah. Also really good advice. If you're interested in doing a history thesis, Dr. Muller is the person to talk to. He will help you flesh out an idea. With all the courses, we also have a lot of books, and that is the Book a Day club. And that is what you're all here for. So we'll tell you a little bit about what some of our most important. Our favorite books are. Kanye, can you tell us what your favorite books were?
- [30:37]
C
And you can't say Clausewitz.
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E
I was gonna say, obviously.
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C
Really?
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A
As a German, I have to say Kauset. I will be kidding. If I get back around.
- [30:47]
E
I would say Fuller. No, I'm just kidding. That was probably the most controversial one. I found it interesting because I related a lot to my. The human body. You'll see if you have to read that. But no, I would say Colin Gray, Strategy Bridge. A lot of people hate that book. I thought that he did a great job of arguing how strategy is the singular, eternal, universal bridge that connects policy and military together, which I found to be, like, very useful for me because I'm about to go work at the Pentagon. So I'll be part of the strategy bridge. Right. So you have to translate policy and politics and what it can do and then make it relatable and really understand the military arm and what we actually can provide. So I liked that book anyways.
- [31:36]
D
Yeah, my favorite book. Or I think the. My favorite book was a different one than what I thought was important. So the book that I found most important was Kong's Analogies at War. And I really like the phrase, you know, all analogies are bad and some are useful. And so I like the way he really shapes this book on how policymakers and leaders and really smart people use analogies incorrectly. Analogies are not just used after the fact to, like show why we made a decision, but they're actually really involved in the decision making process of why we make our decisions in times of uncertainty. So I thought it was really interesting how it brings in some of the cognitive biases, you know, our unconscious biases, how we seem to, like, only compare similarities. We tend to ignore the differences. And so really that can lead to a downfall into bad decision making. So it's just really trying to be aware of those cognitive biases that you have and then also really be aware of analogies. While helpful and useful, they can kind of simplify things too much and lead to bad decisions.
- [32:35]
A
Yeah. And I love the column gray book. So strategy bridge best, in my opinion, even if, like we said, very controversial. But no, the second most important, or for me at least influential book was Essence of Decision by Ellison. And I really liked how he showed us these models of Model 1, Model 2, Model 3, with organizational process, the government and the state. Not in this order. It is state, organization, government.
- [33:07]
C
But don't confuse me, man, it's almost ghost.
- [33:11]
A
It's almost ghost. But I really, I really liked how does this play into our daily interactions within our air forces and within our military organization. And it gets into the strategy bit as well because we work with the government and the government politics, and we are not in an empty room where we can take our own decisions.
- [33:31]
B
Yeah, yeah, that's a really good answer. And some interesting books as well that I also really liked. I'm very surprised nobody said my favorite book, which was the Book of Deeds and Chivalry by Christine D. Pizzani. Add it to your future books. I thought it was a great one.
- [33:47]
E
Yes.
- [33:47]
D
Female strategist or female theorist.
- [33:49]
B
First female strategist from the medieval times added to your reading list. We also have another favorite category of books, and that's enemies to lovers or future reference books, though books you didn't like initially but now you love. And I think that Dr. Maurer would expect me to say Heavens and the Earth by McDougall, because I really struggled with that book. But my least favorite book that now I think is really impactful and something that I will definitely reference in the future is the Logic of Civil War by Kali Vos. So it really focuses a lot on internal domestic violence and it focuses on why people go to Civil war? What are some of the motivations behind that? What happens to it, what drives people to it, which I think is a really interesting concept and something that I did not understand why we were talking about in SAS at the time. And. But since then, I've been able to reflect on it a little bit, and I think that that was a really important book for just understanding the internal politics and internal domestics of how things happen with war and being able to relate that across and just people in general, because at the end of the day, we are all humans and we are all people. And Kali Vas had a really interesting perspective on why we actually have civil war and where that comes from. So that was definitely one of my now favorite books that at the time, I did not really like. And I think, Hoss, you also were a Kali Vaas fan in the beginning.
- [35:09]
C
No, I was. And I didn't need to be converted to Kali Vos. I was. I was. I was a fan to begin with. But what I will say is that one of the things about Kali Vas that's great is that it's going to be useful not only for us, you know, going forward in our careers, but it's also going to be useful. We're all facing down comps in about a week and a half here. And I think Kali Vas is going to be one of those books that is very useful to try to connect all the books that we're reading to these bigger ideas. And so my enemy to lover book is also one that originally I thought was pointless. It was contrived. It was not very good. It's rethinking the. Excuse me, Rethinking the World by Legro or legro. And when I first read it, I kind of thought, this is. This is silly. This is dumb. The thesis is basically, ideas shape change. And my reaction was, yeah, okay, thanks. I couldn't figure that out. Like, no, no, duh. But while we went through more and more courses, I kept returning to legro's idea of the cyclical change and how certain ideas can be consolidated or certain ideas fail, how certain ideas succeed. And I kept referencing it in class, much to the consternation of some of my instructors, because I only ever referenced that book for a while. And in the end, I realized that.
- [36:23]
B
Poor Morocco.
- [36:26]
C
I knew we couldn't get through this podcast without at least one mention, but, yeah. So my answer is legro, Rethinking the World.
- [36:33]
E
That's good.
- [36:33]
A
Yeah.
- [36:34]
D
My least favorite book was probably Bloody Bowen's Original Sin So honestly, when I read that book, I thought it was like over the top, overly dramatic, and I thought he was trying to just make a buck with this book. So as much as I wanted to push back, though, I eventually fell for it, I think, because it does have a lot of the space history and the details that he goes into are just really too good to ignore. I think the relationship for me with this book really turned around in seminar. You know, his core argument about the original sin of space technology makes a lot of sense. Space came out of the Cold War and the space age, you know, rockets, satellites, ground stations. So it wasn't really just for science. It was more for that military industry. And so really, I think that I ended up using this book in my thesis as well, because I think it explains. Explains why these assets were never really developed for the tactical warfighter. And that's what something General Moorman had to really transform. So I do think I'll use this book later in my career too. And it's definitely something I'll keep on my desk just for the amount of history that it has in it as well.
- [37:35]
B
Wow, thanks for all of that. I'm sure all of our listeners have a list of TBR books right now so that you can add these titles to it. Overall, SAS was a really interesting event for all of us, and we all took away a lot of different lessons. We all really enjoyed our class. Our class is very close. Kanye, tell us a little bit about what your overall impressions of SAS was.
- [37:59]
E
I would say that at first I didn't understand what exactly I was getting into and to understand how all of the courses would connect. And some of the generals who've come to speak with us during the class have mentioned this to us that I know you might not see it right now because you're in it, but once you are away from sas, you'll start to see all of the habits that you formed and the connections that you've coalesced from the different courses. So I think right now, since we're in the throes of trying to study, I'm still in the midst of it. But I think once we step away, I'll see all of the connections that we've made throughout the year. It's really valuable.
- [38:44]
C
I agree with everything you said. And I would sort of add that in a lot of ways SAS is at as advertised. And that's a good thing. And what I mean by that is when you hear about, oh, it's the Book of Day Club and there's A lot of writing and I hope you like to read and all these things that you hear. And we talked about it as our, as far as our previous impressions and why we came to sas, I think it sort of lived up to a lot of what we thought it was. And that's not to say that it wasn't difficult, and it's not to say that it wasn't challenging. But, you know, you spend some days just feeling like all this information is getting crammed into your head, but at the end of it, you start to see little signs that, oh, I'm, I, I just immediately said Kali Vas when someone talked about civil war. And, you know, oh, I, I'm thinking differently and I'm approaching problems differently. And those skills are going to translate as we move forward in our career. And so while not every moment was enjoyable as, as with any type of school scenario, I can't imagine it being a more rewarding. And I had fun, to be perfectly honest. So I'm, I'm, I'm happy with my experience.
- [39:48]
B
Yeah. And I think a lot of that experience like you're talking about is really about the people. And every class has a little bit of its own personality and it's little. Its own makeup. And I really enjoyed overall our class that we had together, our personality and everything that we went through together. It makes every seminar different. That's one of my overall impressions of sas, was every single course was so different for me based off of who was in the seminar, how the seminar dynamics were, and it made it really interesting. I was so super, super lucky to have a lot of our international officers in multiple of my classes in a row. And that was such an interesting perspective for me to be able to get to hear them and what they thought of it and the spin that they have just from their perspective and their lived experience. So that was a really cool experience for me and something that I'm very grateful for SAS is to have all the different backgrounds and get to learn from everybody.
- [40:40]
A
Yeah.
- [40:42]
B
Liz, did you have any overall impressions of sas?
- [40:45]
D
Um, everything that you guys have said, I think the relationships, you know, that's one thing that I've really loved throughout this experience, is just getting to know everybody. Different experiences, different backgrounds, challenging each other's opinions. You know, going into seminar thinking one thing and coming out thinking another. I learned a lot and had a great time rowing through this adventure with all of you guys.
- [41:04]
C
And, you know, it's funny, we talk about the relationships. Sorry, Mateo, you can jump in. But just, it's Always really funny when you have different people in class, but you start to figure out how different people react to what you're saying. And so you'll be looking across and all of a sudden you'll someone's face. And in the beginning you don't necessarily know what they're thinking. By the end you're like, oh, she thinks this is dumb. She thinks what I just said was really dumb. And however, I don't know how I'm going to land this plane, but when I do, she's going to get me.
- [41:30]
B
And if you have Matteo, I would have to disagree with you.
- [41:34]
D
I have to piss back.
- [41:35]
A
But this time, since now my impressions, I do not disagree. I agree with you.
- [41:41]
C
That pin is true. I agree with you.
- [41:43]
A
But so no, no, you know, first of all, big shout out to the faculty. I think we mentioned some of them in the podcast, but yeah, the faculty is absolute worthless, military or civilian. I have to really highlight the experience they have and they convey to us. That's just unbelievable. And it is literally just, you know, all these people are on this one floor. So much expertise in this building. But yeah, my second shout out goes to all the students of 35. You guys are just amazing. I arrived and I attended first seminar and I recognized, man, these people are all more intelligent than I and it is unbelievable what can happen if you are in an environment with really motivated people who really want to thrive and they push you, they push you to another level. I recognize this, that I had to step up a little bit. But I'm thankful for this experience. I'm thankful for being here and meeting all you guys. And I know I will carry this bonds I made here for the rest of my life. So for the Internationals, I want to just say thank you to all you guys and to sas.
- [43:01]
B
Yeah, thank you for tuning in today to hear all our student perspective of being in sas. And I also want to give a huge Congratulations to Class 35, who is very close to graduation. We are all very excited to graduate on the 27th of May and we hope you enjoyed our overall impressions of SAS.
- [43:20]
F
Thank you for tuning in to books to battles. We hope you enjoyed today's discussion. If you liked today's episode, please be sure to like and subscribe and even tell a friend about us. Also, don't forget to send us any questions you'd like answered or suggest feature episodes. You can contact us at bookstobattlesu af edu For Colonel Corey Holland, I'm Dr. Wendy Whitman Cobb. And don't forget, strategy doesn't stop at the page.