Ep 1: What No One Told You About Student Loans

Summary

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Borrowed Future – Ep 1: What No One Told You About Student Loans

Podcast: Borrowed Future
Host: Ramsey Network (George Camel et al.)
Date: September 30, 2019

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Episode Overview

This opening episode of "Borrowed Future" drills into the heart of America's student loan crisis, examining how debt has become normalized, why so many end up overwhelmed, and the myths persuading millions of students to borrow money for college. The episode combines personal stories of debt, expert analysis, and practical discussions, raising the question: Is it possible to attend college debt free, and if so, how?

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Main Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Scale and Human Toll of Student Loans

• Personal Stories: A rapid-fire sequence of borrowers outlines staggering debts:

  • From $27,000 to over $600,000 (00:01–01:14)
  • Many did not complete degrees, or graduated in fields with low earning prospects
  • Debts often vastly outstrip incomes

• Cultural Normalization:

  • “The average student graduates with $35,000 in student loan debt with an average monthly payment of $393. If this sounds normal to you, it is.” – George Camel (01:21)
  • Student loans shape major life decisions, delaying home ownership, marriage, or financial independence

• Economic Impact:

  • “People with student loans are not buying houses, they're not buying cars, they don't even have bank accounts.” – Terry (03:00)
  • The ripple effect on broader U.S. economy and society

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2. How Young People Are Guided Toward Debt

• Influence of Parents, Counselors, and Societal Messages:

  • Anthony O’Neal reflects on guidance received: “If you do not get a scholarship…we'll just take out some loans.” (06:00)
  • Students often lack alternatives in their planning, believing loans are the only path

• Lack of Financial Education:

  • “A recent survey... shows that four out of 10 people don't even think student loans are debt.” – George Camel (09:27)
  • College-bound teens rarely consider the ROI, actual debt loads, or long-term impact

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3. Questioning the “Good Debt” Myth

• Expert Opinions on the Risks:

  • “To go and spend money that you don't have to maybe graduate is absolutely ludicrous.” – Dave Ramsey (10:20)
  • Many borrowers don’t finish their degrees, making return on investment uncertain
  • “Student loans are often said by people to be good debt, which is laughable.” – Dave Ramsey (10:37)

• Predatory Industry Measures:

  • The language “student” lends loans a false sense of safety
  • “There's just a range of predatory players who view the student loan crisis as their chance to make a quick buck.” – Seth Frotman (12:26)

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4. The Student Mindset and Planning Gap

• High School Perspectives:

  • Many students (and parents) underestimate real costs and overestimate pay-off timelines
  • “I can likely get out of Virginia Tech with a bachelor's degree with only $40,000 in debt... probably only a year or two to pay it off.” – Ken Coleman (14:13)
  • Students think in terms of short-term needs, not lifelong repercussions

• Teacher Insight:

  • “They're not thinking much past what they're going to do with their money this weekend.” – Ken Coleman, on students’ day-to-day mindset (18:27)

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5. Consequences of the “Default Path”

• Lack of Plans Equals Debt:

  • “Millions and millions of students every single year just walk into college experience and just quickly sign the student loan paper because they didn't have a plan, they didn't have a direction, they didn't have a vision.” – Anthony O’Neal (19:10)

• False Expectations:

  • Many believe that full-time work, scholarships, or grants will always fill the gap
  • When options run out, loans become the “default” (23:26–24:47)

• Interest and Debt Growth:

  • Example: $15,000 loan becomes $60,000 after years of payments due to interest – Terry (24:37)

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6. Debunking Excuses and Highlighting Alternatives

• Challenging the “I Have No Choice” Narrative:

  • “Student loan debt has become so normalized in our culture because everyone is taking out loans. And we truly have believed this lie that you can't be a student without a student loan.” – Rachel Cruze (26:40)

• The Debt Cycle as Economic Trap:

  • Students start adult life “in the hole,” limiting freedom and career options
  • “You are starting your life off, on average, $36,000 in the hole…” – Rachel Cruze (27:14)

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7. Is Debt-Free College Truly Possible?

• Expert Opinions:

  • “You can certainly go to college debt free. Absolutely.” – George Camel (29:01)
  • “There's a lot of different ways to approach college... With enough research, determination, scholarships, hard work, I absolutely believe it's possible…” – Ken Coleman (29:03)

• Practical Stories:

  • Rachel shares story of a student who applied to two scholarships a day, graduated debt free, and saved $4,000 (33:09)
  • “She did the work and now I'm on the other side of it and I actually have money.” – Rachel Cruze (33:41)

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8. The Lasting Impact of Debt Choices

• Lost Opportunities, Emotional Strain:
  • “It stopped us from starting our family... stopped me from being happy a lot of the time.” – Josiah on student loan burdens (36:13)
  • Minimum payments can be crushing—for Josiah, $550/month on $120,000 borrowed (39:30)

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9. What It Takes to Graduate Debt-Free

• Hard Work and Intentionality:

  • “Successful people do what unsuccessful people are not willing to do. Debt free people do what non debt free people are not willing to do, which is work.” – Anthony O’Neal (41:53)
  • “It's not about a privileged thing... it's about people who work.” (42:07)

• Concrete Actions:

  • Apply for as many scholarships and grants as possible
  • Consider community college and trade schools
  • Work while attending school
  • Forego prestige or “glitz and glam” for financial reality

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On cultural normalization:

  • "It's normal to have $35,000 in student loan debt... $15,000 in credit card debt... $30,000 financing a wedding... That's normal... I was tired of being normal, and I said I was ready to be different." – Anthony O’Neal (08:32)

• On never being told the dangers:

  • "No one ever said, you're robbing from your future, Anthony, if you take out student loans. It was normal." – Anthony O’Neal (07:34)

• On the predatory industry:

  • "There's just a range of predatory players who view the student loan crisis as their chance to make a quick buck." – Seth Frotman (12:26)

• On default being common:

  • "Studies are showing…every year, a million people will go into default. So this means every freaking day, 28 seconds a day, a week, a year, someone is going into default. Why? Because of the lack of knowledge." – Anthony O’Neal (25:20)

• On the hidden cost:

  • "The fact that people don't know how much money they owe and the first time they've said the number out loud is on a national TV program... shows an incredible amount of shame, guilt and avoidance." – Michael Torpy (31:13)

• On what’s truly needed:

  • "I would rather wait five to seven years to not have the debt... Would you rather have that and get through quicker or would you rather wait a little longer to get it? As a guy who waited nine years…It was worth every second of the patience and the perseverance to do it." – Ken Coleman (35:00)

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Key Timestamps

• 00:01–01:14 — Montage of borrowers and their debts
• 03:17–04:15 — Dave Ramsey on how guidance counselors and parents inadvertently mislead students
• 05:47–09:27 — Anthony O’Neal’s personal debt story, including borrowing for lifestyle rather than necessity
• 10:20–10:59 — Dave Ramsey eviscerates the “good debt” argument
• 12:26–13:48 — Seth Frotman on predatory nature of the student loan industry
• 14:13–14:40 — High schoolers discussing college costs and unrealistic timeframes to repay
• 24:31–25:19 — Terry’s $15,000 loan grows to $60,000 despite regular payments
• 26:40–28:31 — Rachel Cruze on the normalization and the consequences of student loans
• 33:09–34:05 — Story of a student who graduated college debt free via scholarships
• 36:13–37:00 — Josiah on what debt has cost him in life milestones

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Takeaway Messages

• Student loan debt is not just a number — it’s shaping lives and futures on a massive scale
• Most students borrow because “everyone does it” and rarely see an alternative
• The “good debt” narrative is misleading, as many never reap the benefits or even get degrees
• Education about finances, intentional planning, and hard work can make college without debt possible, but it requires fighting against “normal”
• Students and parents must discuss, research, and sometimes make “unpopular” or “slower” choices to ensure financial freedom

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Conclusion

The student loan crisis is deeply entrenched in American culture and economy, but it’s not inevitable. This episode sets the stage for a broader investigation, promising to expose the myths pushing students into debt and to offer practical guidance for a future free from the burdens of student loans.

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Next episode preview: "Before we dive into that, we've got to unpack some myths and lies about college. And we'll do that in our next episode." (44:46)

Transcript

[George Camel]

I have $27,000 in student loans.

[Terry]

I have 54,000 student loans and I don't even have a degree. 62,000 student loan debt. At best I make around 19,000. I'm barely making it.

[George Camel]

The student loans tally up to 75,000.

[Anthony O'Neal]

Total, but we are making monthly payments on that.

[Terry]

I have $100,000 in student loans. We have 102 in student loans. My student loans is actually 115,000. I currently owe $121,000. I have a master's in college student personnel administration. So basically I can work on the college campus for the rest of my life. 160. It's just student loans. I have about $175,000. With private student loans and federal student loans combined, I have $200,000 of student loan debt. And unfortunately not a doctor or lawyer. I just got a business degree from a private school and I'm currently making 45,000 a year. Combined, me and my husband have roughly 300,000 do of the student loan debt. We both have a substantial amount of.

[Anthony O'Neal]

Student loan debt in the neighborhood of well over $600,000.

[Terry]

Just feel like I'm starting my life.

[Josiah]

A little bit late.

[Terry]

My husband and I are looking at about 630,000 in student loans combined.

[George Camel]

More than 44 million Americans have student loan debt and the burden is keeping many of them from moving forward with their lives. The average student Graduates with $35,000 in student loan debt with an average monthly payment of $393. If this sounds normal to you, it is. Student loan debt has become a part of culture. It's woven into society and it's a part of our lives. But it's negatively affecting real people and the economy. It's a crisis that's drawing national attention.

[Rachel Cruze]

43 million borrowers have about one and.

[Terry]

A half trillion dollars in federal student loan debt.

[Seth Frotman]

We don't understand the true impact that this debt is having.

[Ken Coleman]

Going into debt has life altering consequences.

[Seth Frotman]

Every single year, another million student loan borrowers default on that debt.

[Terry]

The student loan crisis is getting out of control. And the way it's taking advantage of people crippling my generation is unfair.

[George Camel]

Along with the media, plenty of experts are chiming in too. You can't do the things you want.

[Josiah]

To do in your life if you're.

[Ken Coleman]

Paying the government or banks or whoever. It may be a note at 7%.

[Dave Ramsey]

Every day I talk to someone who's got 100,000 or 200,000 or $250,000 in student loan debt. 100% of these people are completely emotionally overwhelmed. They're paralyzed, they're terrified, they do not know what to do.

[Josiah]

$1.6 trillion that people who may not.

[Ken Coleman]

Even have graduated have to pay back.

[Seth Frotman]

That's a problem.

[Terry]

People with student loans are not buying houses, they're not buying cars, they don't.

[George Camel]

Even have bank accounts.

[Terry]

Half. They are not producing in the economy.

[George Camel]

In any regard because they are so shoved down. They can't.

[Terry]

It has a huge impact everywhere in our economy.

[Dave Ramsey]

They were led down this path by a set of values put on them by a series of guidance counselors and parents who weren't thinking and educators who were out of control and a Congress who continues the this ridiculous student loan debacle. And here they sit, trapped, and they do not know what to do.

[Josiah]

The consequences for a large level of.

[Ken Coleman]

Debt as it relates to their financial well being. And are they delaying other purchases? And then what does that do for our economy? If our millennials and Gen Z students are delaying getting married, delaying buying houses, how does that have an economic ripple?

[Dave Ramsey]

Who they were supposed to become? They can't because they're walking around with this 400 pound ball over their head and they're trying to balance that and live a life.

[George Camel]

From Ramsey Network, I'm George Camel and this is Borrowed Future, a podcast series exploring the student loan debt crisis and the impact it's having on real people. Over the next several episodes, we're going to find out how we got here, why student loans are such a big deal, and what can be done to avoid them in the first place. We'll hear stories of people burdened by student loan debt and be inspired by people who graduated college debt free. You'll also hear from experts and thought leaders along the way. Guiding us through this mess is author of the book Debt Free Anthony o'. Neill. He's devoted his life to helping young people make better decisions, and especially when it comes to money.

[Anthony O'Neal]

So I remember my junior year and I'm sitting in the auditorium at Southview High School and it is our time to go in there and to talk about our future. Well, this guy gets up on stage and he gets out there and he starts talking about colleges and he sits there and he says, hey, if you're a junior right now and you have not started looking into your college experience, you are late. And I'm tripping because my parents haven't told me anything, my counselors haven't told me anything, my friends haven't told me anything. And I'm like, what the heck do I do? Do I go off to college. If I do go off to college, how do I go off to college? I remember after that session I went and asked my counselor like, hey, I really do want to go off to college. What do I do? She says, well, your grades right now are not lined up to get a scholarship. But there's also student loans.

[George Camel]

What Anthony didn't know is that student loans would send him down a road that would take years to clean up. Student loans are a problem impacting Anthony, you, our kids, and our nation.

[Anthony O'Neal]

I go home and my parents are like, yo, you know, we have the GI Bill, and anything above the GI Bill, we'll just take out some loans. That was the thought that myself, my counselor and my parents had. If you do not get a scholarship, if you do not cover it all with the GI Bill, we'll just take out some loans. We'll just go talk to Sallie Mae and ask Sallie Mae, can I borrow some money? And we already know her answer. It was going to be yes. So I graduated high school, ended up getting a NFL scholarship, National Forensics League, not the NFL. I'm too short to be playing football. I go off to college, and as soon as I walk onto the college campus, I'm like, this is great. So I had the NFL scholarship, plus I had my father's GI bill. And to keep it 100, you guys, I had all my school paid for. When I had it all paid for, I still did a dumb thing. I still borrowed money to go after the lifestyle, to get the clothes, to get the car, to buy the roses, to go to McDonald's. I borrowed money just for the freaking lifestyle. And studies are showing that a lot of our students college is paid for, but they're still borrowing money to live. Live off of what? You're borrowing money and you're paying back so much. But no one ever told me that. No one ever said, you're robbing from your future, Anthony. If you take out student loans, it was normal. So I said, I'm gonna be normal and I'mma join them. Not only did I take out $10,000 in student loans, but I also took out $15,000 in credit card debt. I also borrowed $10,000 to get some furniture debt. Before I even turned 19, I'm $35,000 in debt and I wake up like, what in the heck is going on? No one told me what woke me up because I did not have a plan was me being homeless at the age of 19, sleeping in the back of the car because I didn't take debt off the table. You know, I have four amazing parents, two biological parents and two step parents, and all four of them I love dearly and equally. And neither one of them were rich and neither one of them were poor. You know, they had a roof over their heads, clothes on their back, food on the tables, AC and heat and hot showers. But I'm sleeping in the back of my car because I didn't take every one decision that I made seriously. And I never took the time to write out the vision for my life, write out the plan for my life. I just followed what everyone called normal. And normal ended me in the back of the car, normal trying to finance things that I really could not afford at all. Normal trying to impress my friends and go to the same school that my friends were going to. That normal ended with me in the back of the car. It's normal to have $35,000 in student loan debt. It's normal to have about $15,000 in credit card debt. It's normal to have About 20 to $30,000 spending on a wedding and financing a wedding. That's normal. I was tired of being normal, and I said I was ready to be different. And me being different means we don't have to be normal to be successful. We should not be financing things. We should not be in debt.

[George Camel]

A recent survey of consumer Debt shows that four out of 10 people don't even think student loans are debt. So that begs the question, exactly what is debt? Let me explain. Debt is owing anything to anyone for any reason. So if you borrow money for a student loan, that is debt, you have to pay it back. And if you're making payments on your student loans, that money can't be spent on something else, like rent, gas, food, or retirement savings. And that's bad for you and the economy. Anthony's not the only one who thinks debt is bad. There's a guy out there who's been yelling about this on a street corner for almost 30 years. And that street corner happens to be the third largest talk radio show in the United States, the Dave Ramsey show.

[Dave Ramsey]

To go and spend money that you don't have to maybe graduate is absolutely ludicrous.

[George Camel]

Dave has helped millions of people crawl out of debt and build wealth. Needless to say, he's got a strong opinion when it comes to student loan debt.

[Dave Ramsey]

Student loans are often said by people to be good debt, which is laughable. Is education a good thing?

[George Camel]

Yes.

[Dave Ramsey]

Is it worth investing in? Yes. In a proper setting, with proper analysis as to what kind of a degree you're going to get and is it applicable in the field. But when I took my kids to college, who graduated a decade ago from university, went to a four year school, we sat down in the state school and in the orientation, the lady says we have a high graduation rate, 58%, which is above the national average, by the way. Now if I got a 58 on a test, they would have given me an F. But they're calling themselves big dogs because they got a 58% graduation rate. Translation, 42% did not graduate. So everyone that takes out a student loan 4 out of 10 times does not get a degree. So this idea that you're automatically going to get a return on investment assumes a completed degree in a field that will pay you more than you would have made had you not gone to school and it assumes you freaking graduate. So it's a stupid set of assumptions to get us to the point that the idea that this is good debt.

[George Camel]

Along with Dave, there are lots of other people who want you to stay away from this good debt. One of those people is Seth Frotman. He's the executive director of the Student Borrower Protection center in Washington D.C. he's also the former ombudsman at the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, a government agency designed to protect students. Put in a much cooler way, NPR called him the student loan watchdog.

[Seth Frotman]

So I think what most people don't realize because there's these misperceptions that student loan debt is, quote, good debt, or there's something about the fact that the word student appears before the word loan that makes people think that this is somehow different and why it was great to be at the bureau and why it was this unique perspective for us, this was just another form of consumer debt that we were in charge of overseeing. And unfortunately, with the dramatic rise of student loan debt, so we've now added essentially a trillion dollars of student loan debt overnight, is that there's just a range of predatory players who view the student loan crisis as their chance to.

[Anthony O'Neal]

Make a quick buck.

[Seth Frotman]

Right? So this is everything from big banks to small scams. So you have private student lenders, student loan servicers, debt collectors, private equity companies, even social media companies who are looking at the student debt market and creating a business model that is essentially premised to on ripping off students. We just can't keep burying our head in the sand, call this good debt and think those folks involved are, you know, are just inherently pure actors because, you know, they're, they're working on issues around Student debt. Because every piece of history we have just shows that that is not the case.

[George Camel]

If student loans are ripping off and hurting students, why are they taking them out? What's going on in students minds? I went to a local college prep high school to find out. These students are way smarter than me in almost every way. Just maybe not when it comes to money. Have you done the math to figure out, here's how much this could cost?

[Josiah]

I have.

[Ken Coleman]

So speaking at where I am now.

[George Camel]

I can likely get out of Virginia Tech with a bachelor's degree with only 40,000 in debt. And so I almost see it as an investment.

[Ken Coleman]

And I've talked to my parents about.

[George Camel]

It and we definitely think it's the.

[Anthony O'Neal]

Right thing to do is to take.

[George Camel]

On a small bit of debt so I can advance my career more. So let's say you get out of, you know, you get your bachelor's degree and you got $40,000 in debt, how long do you think it would take you to pay that off?

[Ken Coleman]

Probably only a year or two.

[George Camel]

If I'm.

[Anthony O'Neal]

Wow.

[Terry]

Yeah, of course, I'm probably. I'm going to get financial aid wherever I go. Probably.

[George Camel]

Okay, so what do you know about the fafsa, the application for financial aid?

[Terry]

No, I have not heard about that.

[George Camel]

Do you know where you want to go to school yet?

[Terry]

Columbia University.

[George Camel]

Very expensive school.

[Terry]

We could work it out, you know, with financial aid and stuff.

[George Camel]

So I'm looking at the tuition for Columbia University. Do you know how much it costs to go there?

[Terry]

A lot. Like $60,000 a year.

[George Camel]

You nailed it.

[Terry]

Yeah.

[George Camel]

And so have your parents talked to you about this? You have a conversation and they're going, hey, listen, we can't afford to send you to a $60,000 a year school.

[Terry]

We haven't had that conversation. They've never said I can't go because of financial reasons.

[George Camel]

Would you take student loans out to go to Columbia?

[Terry]

I would if I felt like it was really, really something that I felt, feel like would benefit me in the long run. I feel like it's a great option for me.

[George Camel]

Okay, so you'd be willing to take out student loans to go there?

[Terry]

Yes.

[George Camel]

If you were like, I got in, I'm really excited. This is gonna be worth it. What makes it worth it?

[Terry]

I think it'd be worth it if I got in and they told me, you know, that they could offer me a scholarship and they could make this work for me. And then I'd be like, okay, well, I'll do it on my end. If you'll help me out on yours, so.

[George Camel]

Okay.

[Terry]

Because I feel like, I mean, it is our education. It is also our responsibility to do something for it. We have to work for it a little bit. Wanting to be a teacher, I know they don't make a whole lot of money, and so I wouldn't want to, like, you know, pay for college and pay more than what I may make at my job, you know, so that's very smart.

[George Camel]

So you're saying why should I take on $50,000 in debt when I'm only going to get paid $20,000? And so do you plan on going to college without taking student loans?

[Terry]

I plan on trying not to have loans, but I mean, if it happens, it happens, and I'll just do what I can to pay them off.

[George Camel]

So how much do you think you'd have to take out in student loans?

[Ken Coleman]

Ballpark, about 25,000 total.

[George Camel]

For four years.

[Ken Coleman]

For four years? Yes, sir. To get my degree, which is very, very well off compared to everybody else.

[George Camel]

And do you think that's the only type of debt you would have at that point? Would you have any credit cards? Would you have car loans?

[Ken Coleman]

I think I also would have. On top of that, because after I get out of college, I will also have to buy a home. I'll have to get gas for my vehicle, going back and forth to work, commuting, food, all the essentials. And on top of paying my debt off, I think that will also accumulate more debt because of less money I'll have.

[George Camel]

And the interest.

[Ken Coleman]

Yes, correct.

[George Camel]

So the interest is building. You now have a mortgage payment that has its own interest.

[Ken Coleman]

Correct.

[George Camel]

And then you potentially have a car loan.

[Dave Ramsey]

Correct.

[George Camel]

Because it's probably going to be hard to pay for a car.

[Ken Coleman]

Correct.

[George Camel]

And then you potentially would have to live off credit cards if you don't have the cash in the bank to pay for your expenses.

[Ken Coleman]

Correct.

[George Camel]

So how much money do you think would be left in your budget after all those payments, after all those payments are done?

[Ken Coleman]

I. I think I would honestly be a little lucky out of a year to make a profit of 10, $15,000 a year. I think that'd be a. Maybe a possible safe assumption.

[George Camel]

So you'd have net after taxes and everything, probably $1,000 every month left over after paying off all of those?

[Ken Coleman]

Yes, sir. I believe that that could be accurate. Of course, I'm not an expert in these things. I'm still in high school.

[George Camel]

This is all hypothetical.

[Ken Coleman]

This is all off of guessing estimates.

[George Camel]

Yeah, guesses and estimates are great. And we all have Dreams for our lives. These kids have high hopes for their futures, but I talked to their personal finance teacher to find out how far ahead they're really thinking.

[Ken Coleman]

Mostly day to day stuff. I mean, they're not thinking much past what they're going to do with their money this weekend.

[George Camel]

You know, they're going paycheck to paycheck.

[Ken Coleman]

For the ones that have jobs or allowance, you know, whatever they're getting their money from, you know.

[George Camel]

But that's the biggest challenge, I guess.

[Ken Coleman]

Is because they're not thinking much past what they're going to do with their money this weekend.

[George Camel]

You know, I know my son, we.

[Ken Coleman]

Talk about, you know, opportunity cost and trade offs and that kind of stuff.

[George Camel]

He's just deciding, do I want to do this with my money?

[Ken Coleman]

If I do, then I won't have it next weekend to, you know, and so that's what you see with these kids.

[George Camel]

I only talk to a handful of students, but Anthony o' Neal is talking to thousands of students in schools across the country every year. If anyone understands a teenager's mindset, it's Anthony.

[Anthony O'Neal]

One of the biggest things that I see with this generation and they do not have a plan. I believe that's why we have a generation of students. Millions and millions of students every single year just walk into college experience and just quickly sign the student loan paper because they didn't have a plan, they didn't have a direction, they didn't have a vision. And then they wake up four or five years later and they're drowning in 35 to 100 $200,000 of student loan debt. I met a 62 year old woman, she's paying off her student loans next month.

[George Camel]

Month.

[Anthony O'Neal]

She's been painting on him for 40 years. I'll take six years of hard work, of sweating, of missing nice evenings with my friends and going on vacations so I can enjoy the next 40.

[George Camel]

Sometimes our expectations of what we think life will look like don't match up to reality. Seth Frotman dealt with that reality and every day at the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau.

[Seth Frotman]

So we saw people over and over again because of their student debt. And again they're trying to pay it back but because of companies or the loan products they were put into just were falling behind. And then they just saw this like downstream ramifications for the rest of their lives. And you know, we were small but mighty and like we were just trying our best to figure out how you fight on behalf of, of the tens of millions of people who the only thing they did Was do everything that they were supposed to do right, which was take on debt to get the degree. And, like, the number one thing we heard was, how has this happened to me when I did everything right?

[George Camel]

Anthony o' Neill has seen that play out time and time again. People who did everything right when it came to their future, they took on debt to get the degree, to get ahead, but all it left them was behind.

[Anthony O'Neal]

Just the other day, I had the opportunity to speak at an hbcu, a historic black college and university, to all of their incoming freshmen. They had about 1500 freshmen who were starting their new journey. A young lady came up to me who is graduating this year, her senior year, and she says, anthony, because I came here out of state, I'm graduating with about $180,000 in student loan debt. She said, I'm going to be a teacher, and I'm going to make maybe $40,000 a year. And I looked at her face and she was like, what do I do? And I couldn't be like, yo, you should not have even came here, because she's already at the end of it. And I felt so bad for her because making $40,000 a year and she's nearly $200,000 in debt before she even graduates. I told her, hey, you're going to have to get aggressive. You're going to have to get a second job. You have to get very creative in these next four to five years. You are really going to have to push yourself hard. You may have to go home to bounce back and to really start figuring out some things. But do not let this debt slow you down from really going after your dreams. As far as being the best school teacher and really impacting our kids, it's there, and I am so sorry that it is there. I am so sorry that I wasn't even there to help her and give her guidance before she. I don't want to talk to kids like her in her senior year of graduating, 20 years old, and she's like, what do I do? My heart breaks for these young kids who signed a piece of paper knowing that it was a loan, but did not know exactly what they were signed, did not know that there were other options, that they were better options to go into college. Student loans are not an option at all.

[George Camel]

Everyone starts with good intentions to go to college and graduate, and loans feel like an easy way to make that possible. But what can start as a small loan can grow and grow and grow. One woman I talked to named Terry shared her story. She did everything the Right way. She had scholarships, grants, and worked two jobs while going to school full time. But during her junior year, things changed when her options ran out. Here's our conversation.

[Terry]

I was on my third year of college and they had cut off all my grants, and so I had no financial aid to be able to pay for it. I was already working two jobs at that point, going to school full time. So they offered me the student loans. She said that's the only way I would be able to stay in college. And since I had no money, I was like, okay. When she was telling me about the student loans, made it sound like it was very simple. You know, you don't have to pay it back until six months after you graduate. The interest doesn't accrue until six months, so by then you should have a job to be able to pay it. So it sounded like a feasible solution to my dilemma. So I went ahead and took the $5,000, which covered my tuition and my books. So that started the cycle of debt in regards to education. So when I graduated in 95, I had $15,000 of student loans.

[Josiah]

Wow.

[George Camel]

So what was your balance at the beginning and what is it now?

[Terry]

My balance, when I graduated from, Finally, I was $15,000. It is now $60,000 and growing.

[George Camel]

And that's while you've been making payments on it?

[Terry]

That's while I've been making payments on it. Yes, sir.

[George Camel]

So that $15,000 loan grew $45,000 in interest while you're paying it down?

[Terry]

Yes, sir.

[George Camel]

Wow. Was that something that you thought could be a reality when you took out the loans?

[Terry]

Absolutely not. Absolutely not.

[George Camel]

No one thinks of the worst case scenario when they take out student loans. And Anthony o' Neill is no exception.

[Anthony O'Neal]

Do not do what I did. Did not have a plan, went to school, six months in school, I'm drowning in debt and I'm homeless because I did not have a plan. Two years later, I'm in default with my student loans. Studies are showing that currently, right now, that there are 8 million borrowers who are in default. They're also showing that moving forward, every year, a million people will go into default. So this means every freaking day, 28 seconds a day, a week, a year, someone is going into default. Why? Because of the lack of knowledge. Because no one is telling them that you're ruining your life. You are delaying your life by taking out student loans.

[George Camel]

What you just heard from Terry and Anthony is normal because student loan debt is normal. And this is what happens when people decide to be normal. There's a lot of normal people out there, more than 44 million of them carrying student loan debt. Swimming against the grain in a sea of normal is Rachel Cruz. She's a financial expert, best selling author and host of the Rachel Cruze Show, a show focused on making money fun and creating a life you love.

[Rachel Cruze]

Student loan debt has become so normalized in our culture because everyone is taking out loans. And we truly have believed this lie that you can't be a student we without a student loan. And you look over even just a simple bar graph of what student loan debt has done over the decades. And the price of tuition has increased because students can borrow however much money they want and go to whatever college they want. So there's no supply and demand. I mean, there's no competition. It feels like in this area of life. And so they keep raising prices and as federal government, they keep loaning out money to these students. And so because of that, it's the easier path to sign your name to a dotted line and you get the repercussions four and a half years later, doing the hard work and being diligent and saying, okay, you know what, I'm going to focus on doing what I can to go to school completely debt free. That is weird in our culture because again, it's easier to go and sign a dotted line. Students should avoid student loans because when you look at it financially in a math perspective, you're starting out your life in the hole. You are starting your life off, on average, $36,000 in the hole. And so when those bills start to come, your options are limited. Meaning you have to go get whatever job you can get to start paying these bills. Man, what a better picture of freedom. If you didn't have these bills that you absolutely had to pay back and you actually had the time and the resources to say, hey, I'm going to take my time and figure out what do I really want to do. But when you have student loan payments coming in the door six months after graduation, you don't have that time. And so your freedom is limited because you're starting off your life in a financial hole. And it's a financial hole that can be avoided completely if you made some different choices and decisions. And the hard thing is, these students, they're not dumb.

[Josiah]

Right?

[Rachel Cruze]

They're not like unintelligent human beings.

[Terry]

No.

[Rachel Cruze]

A lot of them are very smart. They've just been told the wrong information.

[George Camel]

So the $1.6 trillion question is, can the average student go to college debt free?

[Terry]

Yeah. Your Parents have money for my situation? No, no. I don't know. I'm not in that situation.

[George Camel]

It would be nice.

[Seth Frotman]

Is it possible to go to college debt free? I think if you see it coming.

[Anthony O'Neal]

There are ways to live a life.

[Seth Frotman]

A productive life without going six figures into debt.

[George Camel]

You can certainly go to college debt free. Absolutely.

[Ken Coleman]

There's a lot of different ways to approach college. And with enough research, determination, scholarships, hard work, I absolutely believe it's possible to go to college debt free.

[George Camel]

It's definitely possible to go to college debt free.

[Rachel Cruze]

But at some point you have to.

[Josiah]

Draw a line and say, I'm either.

[Rachel Cruze]

Going to school or my child is going to school debt free.

[Ken Coleman]

Well, yeah, it's definitely possible, but not everywhere. If you're one of the kids that really does know what they want to do, you should be able to study that in a good setting. And that's not going to be available at every school that currently is affordable.

[George Camel]

That guy is Michael Torpy, actor and host of Paid Off, a trivia style game show on TruTV where three contestants compete to get their student debt paid off. The game show has already paid off over a million dollars of student loan debt.

[Ken Coleman]

When this show started, one of the rallying cries was, this can't just be a topic every four years during a presidential election. I think everyone knows they need to have a position on this because it is out of control and it is affecting a huge percentage of our population. So I am optimistic. I have to be. I have to believe that this country cares about education and cares about its citizens. The fact that people don't know how much money they owe and the first time they've said the number out loud is on a national TV program that shows an incredible amount of shame, guilt and avoidance. I didn't realize how many people were really hiding from it. It's that terrifying a thing that they cannot think about it or it will really hold them back from living day to day. And I think I've been amazed by how many people are stuck feeling like they're not adults. When you can't participate with your co workers in like a social outing, but you don't necessarily feel like saying why. Maybe you never join people for happy hour after work or you're turning down those group plans on the weekend and everyone thinks you're just antisocial, but you just can't afford it and it doesn't make sense to them because you're working, you know you've got a job. We're all here together. How come you don't have the same disposable income I have. And people don't want to reveal that. It's because they have all these loans. It's this hidden burden that 45 million people are walking around with and unfortunately not talking about enough. So I think I'm continually shocked to see how much potential is being denied with those debt free dreams that we ask people about. You hear people talk about such modest things that it's hard to even call them dreams. You know, someone wants to get married or have children or be able to start their own business. These are things that should be attainable to people who went to college and put in all this work to learn a skill, learn a craft. I'm always shocked to think how much more this person could be living if they didn't have this debt. This show's not a solution. The show is supposed to raise awareness, help out some people who really need it, push for change, and encourage empathy. You know, to put some stories out there and just have people connect with these folks that are struggling and kind of push back on the idea that you should have been able to figure this out on your own. You know, just look at these people, hear their stories, see what they're struggling with, and hopefully we can all just agree that something's got to change.

[George Camel]

Michael is right. There's a better way to solve this problem than by winning a game show. The best way is avoiding student loans to begin with. Here's Rachel Cruze with a story of someone who was able to do just that.

[Rachel Cruze]

I remember speaking at a college in Texas and I got on an elevator and this girl was with me and she said, hey, Rachel, I know you're here to speak about money. I just want to tell you that I'm graduating in May. I have no student loan debt. I went completely debt free, worked my way through, and I actually have $4,000 saved in the bank. And I gave her like, the biggest hug in the world. So I was like, congratulations, you did what people say. It's the impossible. You have done it. So then I asked her, okay, how did you do this? And she went on to tell me that she grew up with a single mom, and her mom told her her junior year of high school that she had to apply for two scholarships every weekday. She had the weekends off, but every weekday she had to find two scholarships and grants. And she told me, like, we fought about this, Rachel. You know, I got grounded because sometimes I didn't do it. Like, it was this huge ordeal, but I did It, I did the work and now I'm on the other side of it and I actually have money, so. And so she is in a better financial position than most adults in America.

[George Camel]

Today, 65% of college seniors graduate with student loan debt. And student loan repayments account for 5 to 15% of those students incomes after they enter the workforce. That means that most graduates start their careers with hundreds of dollars going out the door every single month just to keep up with their debt. Ken Coleman is a best selling author, speaker and host of the Ken Coleman show. And he talks to people every day who feel stuck in their careers and regret their degrees.

[Ken Coleman]

I absolutely think that you can go to college debt free. I know this because I know people who did it and you can do it. But it's all about intentionality and then having a plan and sticking with it and being patient.

[George Camel]

See, you can have a plan, but.

[Ken Coleman]

If you're not patient to work the plan, you'll give in and you go, I can't wait that long. I got to go get a loan so I can get done faster.

[Seth Frotman]

That's garbage.

[Ken Coleman]

Would you rather wait five to seven years to not have the debt, not have all the things associated with that debt? Anxiety, doubt, financial risk, all of that? Would you rather have that and get.

[George Camel]

Through quicker or would you rather wait.

[Ken Coleman]

A little longer to get it? As a guy who waited nine years, now I was hustling. It took me nine years to get the dream job. It was worth every second of the.

[George Camel]

Patience and the perseverance to do it.

[Ken Coleman]

The way that only I could do it in that time. I couldn't go any faster due to my family and financial situation. But I got here and I got here without being in debt.

[George Camel]

Experts believe it's possible to go to college debt free. But what about everyday people? I talked to a teacher named Josiah who's seen the burden of student loan debt up close and personal, and he wants to help others avoid that burden. Do you think the student loans were worth it?

[Josiah]

Oh, absolutely not. Absolutely not. It wasn't worth it to go do, to put myself in debt for 30 years like they wanted me to be.

[George Camel]

Tell me practically how have student loans impacted your life? What have they stopped you from doing?

[Josiah]

And I was talking to my wife the other day about this and she's like, well, I can think of right off the bat, like things that we can't do just because of your student loans. And so like, really it stopped me from being able to get a house with my wife. You know, we live in a Super small house that we just kind of survive in. It stopped us from starting our family. My wife has always loved kids, I've loved kids. And it stopped us from wanting to do that yet because we don't want to bring a child up in this basically poverty stricken home. It stopped me from getting my car fixed. My car broke down about a week ago actually. It stopped me from just really being happy a lot of the time.

[George Camel]

So take me back to the moment when you took out student loans. What was going on in your life?

[Josiah]

I was the youngest child, brother and sister both gone, going to college. Mom wanted me to go to college, stepdad wanted me to go to college. So I decided that I wanted to go to college. I wasn't worried about money, I wasn't worried about anything else that was going to happen because I'm 18, so what bad can actually happen? So when it came time to actually co sign for loans, my mom decided that, you know, okay, they got good credit score, I got, I got all these things that I'm just ready to do. So she said, I can help you out. So awesome, I'll take the money where I can get it. So when we applied for the student loans and then we got approved, the interest rate for that loan is at 13%. And that's just a mind bending number. Like how is that even possible to me being 18, that didn't mean anything. It's just a number. It's 13%, whatever. I don't know what that really even means to my mom. No, that was, you know, shocking. That was. She couldn't believe what was going on. But I'm the one that kind of pressured her into saying, hey, we're like a week away from school. I got to do this, okay? I got to take this money now or else I'm never going to get it. I'm never going to go to school. Because me being 18, I thought it was going to be the end of the world if I didn't do exactly, exactly what I wanted to do right at that point in time.

[George Camel]

So where did that perception come from? It sounds like in your mind you just had to have student loans to go to school. That's just how you paid for it.

[Josiah]

Going through high school. Like, I don't even know if I remember anyone ever saying it's a possibility to pay. No school out of pocket. I think I feel like I was always, hey, you know, you gotta apply for student loans. You want to go here, you gotta apply for this loan. You, you gotta apply for this loan. You can apply for all the scholarships you want, but that's probably not going to cover it because you're not going to be able to live and sustain your lifestyle in college. So now it becomes more than just, oh, I got to take money to go to college now. It's I got to take money to be able to afford a car, to afford food, to afford fast food every maybe two, three times a day. I have to be able to maintain my lifestyle while I'm there. And so it really became a society thing where you just gotta do it. If you don't do it, you're gonna be miserable. And college is supposed to be the best four years, sometimes six years of your life.

[George Camel]

What are those minimum payments? When you graduated, what was the minimum payment you needed to make on your student loans?

[Josiah]

The minimum payment I have to make on my student loans when I first graduated was $550 a month.

[George Camel]

I want to know how much you took out total.

[Josiah]

I took out $120,000.

[George Camel]

So I just did the math here. What you would have paid with $550 a month over 30 years is just about $200,000. So that's $80,000 in interest on $120,000 loan.

[Josiah]

I'd never actually sat down and done the math before.

[George Camel]

I think millions of Americans also aren't doing the math.

[Josiah]

It's pretty incredible because I don't know if it's a matter of I didn't know exactly how to do the math or if it was more a thing of I didn't want to do the math because either way, like that just infuriates me. How did I make myself believe that that was okay? Like, did I think that I was just gonna make $200,000 a year being a teacher? Because if there's a $200,000 a year teacher out there, I'm signing up for it. But I just. That is absolutely insane. It's something I gotta live with though. It's my mistake.

[George Camel]

So my last question for you. Do you think it's possible to go to college debt free?

[Josiah]

Yes, it is completely possible to go to college debt free. It's just a fact of. Are you willing to do what it takes to go to college debt free? Are you willing to go get that job while you're full time in school? Are you willing to talk to your parents early about what's going to go on and save a little bit of money into an account? That way that first year hits, you're ready to go. Are you willing to Go to that community college because it's the cheaper option? Or do you want the glitz and the glam of society to look on you and say like, oh, they're going to a good school. So it is possible. It's just, are you willing to do what you have to do to make it possible?

[Anthony O'Neal]

Can you go to college debt free? Yes. Is it going to be easy? No. Is it going to be easy for you to become a millionaire? No. Is it easy to start and have a successful business?

[Dave Ramsey]

No.

[Anthony O'Neal]

If everything was easy, everyone will be doing it. But only the successful ones. Only the ones who are willing to work, have integrity, have character and do whatever it takes to become successful are the ones who are actually successful. Successful people do what unsuccessful people are not willing to do. Debt free people do what non debt free people are not willing to do, which is work. Yes, it's possible. People are doing it every single day. And let me say this, it's not about a privileged thing, it's not about a race thing. It's about people who work. If you put in the work, you'll get the results. If you want to be lazy, if you just want to have an easy route, yeah, go sign the student loan papers and be in debt and bondage for the rest of your life. But I would rather work hard for four years or maybe five, six years, depending on how quickly you can cash flow to college experience than to be in debt for the next 40. Avoid the stupid mistake that I made of borrowing money to go to college even when I did not need it. No one gave me another route. Hey, Anthony, maybe going off to community college is the best route for you. Or maybe checking out a trade school is the best route for you. Maybe starting off this way is the best route. If you do not have a plan right now, you need to get a plan. The caliber of your future will be determined by the choices you make today. You have to be so strong that you want your future to be the very best. So if you're saying, hey, I want to get through college 100% debt free, you're going to have to be so passionate about it, you're going to have to take action. You're going to have to always be grinding towards that. It's not going to be easy. It takes a lot of hard work and your hard work is going to produce results that only your hard work could have done. And if you're saying, hey, I want to graduate debt free, you're going to have to get up every single day looking up grants, looking up scholarships, going to work, figuring out some things. And you know what? You may not be the most popular person doing it. People may look at you and they may laugh at you. They may question you. They may even doubt if you're going to get through. But you have to be so passionate that no matter what, you are not going to give up. You're not going to borrow one dime to go to school, even if it means you got to move a little bit slower. I would rather you move a little bit slower on a solid foundation than to borrow money and you're on a rocky foundation. It's going to hurt. It's going to take a lot of grit and you're going to have to stay with it. And do not give up. There's currently $1.5 trillion in student loan debt. You're not going to be in that. You're going to graduate college. You're going to walk into your future. Not a part of the stat. But you're starting a new stat. What's the new stat? I'm not in the stat. That's the new stat. Tired of this crazy.

[George Camel]

Anthony o' Neal has a path for how you and your kids can avoid student loans and graduate debt free. But before we dive into that, we've got to unpack some myths and lies about college. And we'll do that in our next episode.

[Rachel Cruze]

We don't need to have a student.

[George Camel]

Loan crisis if we would allow our kids to grow up to be who they were meant to be. Join me. You've been listening Listening to Borrowed Future. If you like what you've heard, do us a favor and rate and review us on Apple Podcasts. It helps. You can find more information about this and other Ramsey network [e-mail] or on your favorite podcast app. Our show is produced by Chris Wright, Eric Cieslevich, Eva Daniel and Kevin Weimer. Music has been curated by James Childs. Will Rutter is our engineer. Our editor is Tim Holtz. Blake Thompson is our executive producer. I'm George Camel. And remember, there's no such thing as good debt except owing your grandma for teaching you some common sense.