Ep 2: Is College Even Worth It?

Summary

Podcast Summary: Borrowed Future – Ep 2: Is College Even Worth It?

Date: October 7, 2019
Host: George Camel, Ramsey Network
Main Guests: Anthony O’Neal, Seth Godin, Mark Cuban, Brad Barnett, Rachel Cruze, Ken Coleman, Dr. Meg Meeker, Gary Vaynerchuk

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Episode Overview

This episode explores the critical question facing millions of Americans: Is college even worth it? As the student loan crisis reaches new heights, host George Camel and guests examine the long-held belief that college is an automatic route to success, the mounting financial burden of higher education, and the cultural and parental pressures that drive students toward college at any cost. The episode challenges listeners to consider true ROI (Return on Investment) for a college degree and alternative ways to build a successful life without incurring massive debt.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Default Narrative: College = Success

• High Schoolers’ Perspective ([00:00–02:45])

  • Most students (and parents) believe college is the only path to prosperity.
  • Notable Voices: Anthony O’Neal, several high school students.
  • Quote:

    “No one said, 'You don’t have to go to college.' No one even showed me all of my options for continued education. ... So I just thought that if I don’t go to college, I failed.”
    — Anthony O’Neal [00:00]

• Statistics Highlight ([02:46–03:56])

  • 69.1% of high school graduates (2018) enrolled in college; only 55% finish within six years.
  • Almost half of students start college that won't finish, often still saddled with debt.

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2. Reconsidering the True Value and Purpose of College

• Skills vs. Credentials ([03:56–05:14])

  • Seth Godin questions if college teaches success skills or just rewards obedience.
  • Quote:

    “They are not successful because they did things that would have gotten them an A in school. They are successful because they have an array of skills… I call them real skills.”
    — Seth Godin [04:39]

  • Mark Cuban: College is about “learning how to learn,” not just the degree. ([05:25–06:37])

• The “Experience” Factor ([06:37–09:57])

  • Many students crave the "college experience"—independence, social life, and campus life—often undervaluing the cost.
  • Seth Godin criticizes how colleges market experience over reality:

    “If I wanted to sell a college to the normal group of semi unmotivated, semi uninformed people, I would start with the football team. I would move on to the parties ... I wouldn’t mention student debt.”
    — Seth Godin [08:40]

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3. Lifestyle Trap: Spending and Debt Beyond Tuition

• Lifestyle Inflation ([10:04–13:57])
  • Many students use loans for non-education expenses: vacations, shopping, eating out.
  • Kyle recounts peers spending financial aid checks irresponsibly.
  • Quote:

    “They would just spend it on purses ... whereas they should have just taken that money and applied it to their college bill... it’s like shooting themselves in the foot twice.”
    — Kyle [12:21]

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4. Cultural & Parental Pressure on Students

• Family Expectations ([21:41–26:05])

  • Dr. Meg Meeker asserts it's not just a student loan crisis but a parenting crisis, driven by the pursuit of parental pride and tradition.
  • Quote:

    "We don't have a student loan crisis. We have a parenting crisis."
    — Dr. Meg Meeker [21:53]

  • Ken Coleman emphasizes parents should act as guides, not drivers of their children’s career choices.

• Emotional Toll and Responsibility ([28:10–29:03])

  • Gary Vaynerchuk discusses the damage caused by parents forcing students into debt for their own ego.
  • Quote:

    “One of the scariest things in American society is parents putting pressure on kids to go to school to make the parent feel good and making the kid take on debt for that…”
    — Gary Vaynerchuk [28:10]

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5. How to Make Better Choices as Students and Parents

• Communication and Planning ([29:15–30:47])

  • Anthony O’Neal: Parents must have honest conversations, explore dreams, jointly develop a plan, but let the student drive the process.
  • Quote:

    "Let them feel like they're in the driver's seat and you're in the passenger seat... you can't be in the driver's seat. Passengers can get out. Drivers cannot."
    — Anthony O’Neal [30:30]

• Real-World Example: Kat’s Story ([31:02–36:05])

  • Kat, an attorney, saddled with law school debt, guides her son to select a less expensive college to avoid debt—sacrificing his “dream school” for long-term wellbeing.
  • Quote:

    "Just assuming that college is the only answer and that student loans is the only way to get there, you know, both of those assumptions are completely wrong."
    — Kat [35:34]

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6. ROI and Alternative Paths

• Critical Thinking on Investment ([17:57–19:07])

  • Dave Ramsey: College ROI depends on the degree; not all degrees yield the same financial return.
  • Quote:

    "You can't, across the map, say college degree always gives you this ROI... You have to look at your particular degree field..."
    — Dave Ramsey (attributed via Brad Barnett) [18:16]

• Challenging the “Degree is Enough” Myth ([19:21–21:41])

  • Ken Coleman: Degrees are less important to employers; wrong degree/major can leave grads underqualified and in debt.

• Education ≠ College for All ([36:19–38:56])

  • Anthony O’Neal: Education is essential, but college isn’t always the best or only route—especially if debt is the cost.
  • Quote:

    “Education is for everyone. But the route to college, the process of getting to college is not for everyone.”
    — Anthony O’Neal [36:28]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Seth Godin:

  "If we could fill the world with more people like that [creativity, leadership, resilience] as opposed to people who are simply obedient, well, I'd like to think our culture would shift to one that's more generous and one that has more possibility in it." [04:15]

• Rachel Cruze:

  “You are a college student, which means you're probably broke and that's okay. ... I would rather you live like a college student while you're in college than try to live like a 25-year-old and then graduate and have to go back to live like a college student. Because you have no money and so much debt.” [15:15]

• Anthony O’Neal:

  “Do not allow these four years, these four, five, six years that you're in school … to be the reason why you're in bondage for the next 20, 30, 40 years.” [17:30]

• George Camel’s Sign-off:

  “You can measure the ROI on a degree, but not on your mother. She's priceless.” [39:47]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Segment | Timestamp | |------------------------------------------------------|-------------| | Opening & College as the Only Path | 00:00–02:45 | | Graduation Rates & Debt Statistics | 02:46–03:56 | | Purpose of College: Seth Godin & Mark Cuban | 03:56–06:37 | | The "College Experience" | 06:38–10:04 | | Lifestyle Trap: Spending Beyond Tuition | 10:05–13:57 | | Parental & Cultural Pressure | 21:41–30:47 | | Kat's Story: Parental Sacrifice | 31:02–36:05 | | Rethinking the Value & Alternatives | 17:57–21:41, 36:19–38:56 | | Closing Takeaways & Next Episode Preview | 38:57–39:47 |

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Episode Tone and Takeaways

The episode maintains a candid, sometimes challenging but always practical tone. It features real stories and direct advice. Listeners are encouraged to chart their own path, weigh the true cost/benefit of college, avoid debt for the sake of tradition or lifestyle, and prioritize open family communication over pressure and assumption.

Main Takeaway:
College can be valuable, but not at any cost. Thoughtful planning, awareness of true ROI, and parental support for children's unique dreams are critical. Debt is not a requirement for success—and for many, college may not be the right next step at all.

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For more resources, listen to the next episode or visit www.BorrowedFuture.com.

Transcript

[Anthony O'Neal]

Man, I was told if I want to be successful, if I want to be rich, if I want to be famous for something, I got to go to college. There was no if, ands or buts. No one said, you don't have to go to college. No one said, hey, you know what, you can be successful without going to college. And now, mind you, I'm not saying that I'm against college, that I wish somebody would have told me that you do not need to go to college. What I'm saying is no one even showed me all of my options for continued education. And so my perspective was if I do not go to a four year university, if I do not go to college, I will not be successful, I'm going to be broke, I'm going to be poor, I could never really get into a career field that will build true wealth and success. So I just thought that if I don't go to college, I failed.

[George Camel]

That's Anthony o', Neill, author of the book Debt Free Degree. Anthony isn't the only one who was told that college has to be the next step after high school. I went to a local college prep high school to find out. Why do you plan on going to college?

[Kat]

Yes, sir.

[George Camel]

And why do you want to go to college?

[Kat]

So then I can make more money when I get a job.

[George Camel]

So to you there's a correlation between having a college education and making more money in your career?

[Kat]

Yes, sir.

[George Camel]

Do you plan on going to college?

[Brad Barnett]

Absolutely.

[George Camel]

And why do you want to go to college?

[Brad Barnett]

I really want to further my education. And also in today's economy it's kind of worrisome because if you don't go to college, there's not much promise of finding good jobs out there. So that's another big benefit.

[George Camel]

Do you plan on going to college?

[Kat]

Yes, I do plan on going to college.

[George Camel]

Why?

[Kat]

Well, to have like a good future.

[George Camel]

Do you plan on going to college?

[Anthony O'Neal]

I do.

[George Camel]

And why do you want to go to college?

[Brad Barnett]

Well, I want to go to college.

[George Camel]

To hopefully make more money and advance a career. And so everyone in my family's gone to college.

[Kat]

And it's not even just to set a precedent, it's almost proved myself.

[George Camel]

So I want to go up to a doctoral degree. So let's say the school's $60,000. You get 40,000 in scholarships, parents can't help out, you have 20,000 left to pay. How do you pay those? Do you take out student loans?

[Kat]

I mean, that's basically what I'd probably.

[George Camel]

Have to do now when it comes to student loans. Is there an amount where you say this is too much? This is my lim as far as taking out student loans.

[Kyle]

Yeah, probably like 20,000.

[Anthony O'Neal]

I would be like, nah, I need to start thinking about, like, how long that's gonna go before I can actually start like paying it off fully.

[George Camel]

Is there a certain amount of student loans that you go, mmm, that's too much?

[Kat]

Definitely, like if it was probably over like 150,000.

[George Camel]

From Ramsey Network, I'm George Camel and this is Borrowed Future, a podcast series exploring the student loan debt crisis and the impact it's having on on real people. In this episode, we'll explore why college exists and the reason people believe that college is worth it, no matter the cost. The majority of high school graduates feel like college has to be the next step after high school. According to the U.S. bureau of Labor Statistics, 69.1% of high school graduates in 2018 were enrolled in colleges or universities. But of those people, the U.S. department of Education found that only 55% of them will graduate with a degree within six years. Put another way, for every three students that graduate from high school, two will go to college, but only one will finish within six years. And many of them took out student loans and have nothing to show for it. That means for about half of the students going to college, it might be the wrong next step. Here's best selling author, entrepreneur and thought leader Seth Godin. His manifesto on Stop stealing Dreams has been downloaded over 4 million times.

[Seth Godin]

It's not that hard to do the math of a college degree. Many economists before me have done the math and shown that there is a huge correlation between higher income and a college degree. It cannot be argued. That's not really the question. The question is, if you have the resources and the time, how will you choose to spend it? Can we make it so that during this expensive period of time, something actually useful happens? Think for a minute about a successful person. You know, my guess is they are not successful because they did things that would have gotten them an A in school. They are successful because they have an array of skills that include things like creativity, honesty, directness, leadership, resilience. Some people call these things soft skills. I call them real skills. This idea that you can learn to be the kind of person that you are looking up to, that you respect, that you would hire, well, of course you can learn it. And if we could fill the world with more people like that, as opposed to people who are simply obedient, well, I'd like to think our culture would shift to One that's more generous and one that has more possibility in it.

[George Camel]

So simply going to college is not what sets you up for success. It's how you apply what you learn to grow your character and skill set. Here's another take on the purpose of college.

[Mark Cuban]

You know, I always said college is a place where you learn how to learn. The people that go forward and are successful in life just continue to consume information and learn. And it's so much easier now when you choose a college. It's more about are you committing to learn or are you committing just to do this because your parents want you to or are you committing to do it because you don't want to get a job and this is the next best thing, right? I just go to class and screw around and maybe I'll meet somebody I can date. I'll go party with some people. If that's your attitude, you've already lost.

[George Camel]

That's Mark Cuban. He's an entrepreneur, billionaire investor and owner of the Dallas Mavericks. But you probably know him best as one of the Sharks from the show Shark Tank.

[Mark Cuban]

If you learn how to learn, you can go into any job. That's part of what college is about or community college is about too. My biggest fear as a parent is A, their health obviously, but B, that they're not entitled jerks, you know, I want them to know they have to work. My 15 year old daughter has an internship now that she's getting paid at. My 12 year old, about to be 13 year old, knows if she wants something, she has to earn it. Usually by reading something. And same with my nine year old, right? In our household, to get something you've got to give something, you've got to earn it. And to us that earning involves learning.

[George Camel]

The point of college may be to prepare you for a job and to learn, but students, especially high schoolers, will tell you that going to college isn't just about learning, it's about the experience. Outside of just getting the degree, what are you hoping to get out of it?

[Kat]

I feel like the experience is an important part. You know, maybe being away from home or whatever else.

[George Camel]

Do you know what school you want to go to?

[Kat]

I really like Bellarmine in Kentucky.

[George Camel]

Why did you choose Bellarmine?

[Kat]

They have a really good medical program and they have a good volleyball team. It's really pretty. It's in a good city too.

[Kyle]

So.

[George Camel]

Good city, nice campus. They've got a program for you. That's the dream.

[Kat]

Yes.

[George Camel]

Okay. What are you most excited about when it comes to college?

[Kat]

Just A different environment. We have a really small school, so it's definitely bigger and more diverse, I guess.

[George Camel]

Do you want to go to a bigger school, have kind of a different environment? Okay. What are you most excited about when it comes to college?

[Kat]

I'm excited for like a change of scenery. You know, I've. I mean, this is like, I guess you could say like the kid version of a college campus. But I'm really excited to meet new people and see what like the real world is. We get treated like adults and I'm ready to be challenged.

[George Camel]

Do you plan on going to college? I do. And why is that? Because I just. All my family's gone to college and it's kind of. Everyone does it. Most people do.

[Brad Barnett]

And I want to live the college.

[George Camel]

Life like a normal person. What does living the college life mean to you? Probably just going to classes and then going to events on campus, Stuff like that. Okay, so you're excited about the college experience as much as you are getting a degree? Yes. These kids aren't saying anything unusual. The college experience has been put on a pedestal by both schools and students. Here's more from Seth Godin.

[Seth Godin]

Well, if I wanted to sell a college to the normal group of semi unmotivated, semi uninformed people, I would start with the football team. I would move on to the parties. I would then go on to shiny pictures of people at graduation. I wouldn't mention student debt. I wouldn't mention all the hours you have in between classes because most colleges aren't good at helping people through that. I really love the idea that from 18 to 21 we probably need to take people who are still experiencing the thrill of power without the maturity of knowing what to do with it and put them somewhere else with each other. Let them work it all out. But there are so many things they can do during those four years. It's not clear to me that they should be sitting there memorizing what year some play was written. There are so many other ways to engage people while we were waiting for them to become fully baked. So, yeah, many magical things happened to me and to others during our college experience. I wonder what would happen if we had been in the Peace Corps during that period of time. I wonder what would happen if we had been part of an organization that helped kids who are less privileged, who are five years old learn how to.

[Mark Cuban]

Be in the world.

[Seth Godin]

So many things I could think of for that cohort of people to do as opposed to advanced, expensive school with.

[George Camel]

A football team with the average student graduating with $35,000 in student loan debt, college sure sounds like an expensive way to get some experience. Anthony agrees.

[Anthony O'Neal]

I hear this all the time, you know, from peers, families, professors, educators, you name it. Oh, college teaches you life skills. It teaches you how to deal with people. Yeah, but at what cost? Why do I have to spend $40,000 a year to learn how to deal with people? I could do that every single day on my own. Again, I want to be very clear. I'm not against colleges. I do believe that there are huge benefits to going to college, but not at the cost of racking up debt. I can learn how to be respectful. I can learn how to deal with attitudes. I can learn how to deal with different kind of people for free. I can do that on my own. I do believe that colleges will open certain doors, certain relationships will open certain doors. But it's going to be your character, your work ethic, and how you present yourself that keeps you inside the doors. I had a guy tell me, you know, Harvard opened doors for me, and I'm like, are you still in those doors? He was like, well, unfortunately not. Well, see what I tell people every single day focus on you. Not just the experiences that you may learn over here, but focus on you. Will they give you some great experiences there? Absolutely. But you know what the best teacher when it comes to life is your life. Just waking up every single day and living life is the best teacher. I learn something every single day from me just waking up and walking throughout my day, and it didn't cost me a dime.

[George Camel]

With $1.6 trillion in student loan debt being borrowed for life experience, that's a lot of dimes. And when you go to college for the experience, it's easy to get sucked into the lifestyle. According to a recent survey, 40% of Americans with student loan debt use their loans to pay for something totally unrelated to school, like spring breaks on the beach, new clothes, or late night fast food runs. Kyle, a math teacher in Nebraska who went to college debt free, saw his friends fall into the lifestyle trap. What were the hardest parts? What were the hard things that you look back on and you just say, man, that was tough.

[Kyle]

It was hard seeing my friends that were just stupid. They would. At Wayne State, they did it kind of dumb. I hope they don't do this other places, but I saw my friends get these checks for scholarships and financial aid that they, that they received. Instead of putting it towards the tuition and the cost of college, they would take that and go spend it on things that they wanted. I Don't think they understood at all how these checks worked. They would just spend it on purses and things like that, whereas they should have just taken that money and applied it to their college bill.

[George Camel]

So how did those checks work? What was that money?

[Kyle]

Yeah, it was really wild. I don't know who's in charge or who gave those kids that money, but it should go straight to their own college bill. So I think the way it worked is I don't know if it was FAFSA money or government money of some kind or some other financial aid, but the students themselves got these in the mail. And ideally you're supposed to take it and go to the financial aid office and pay off your bill for that month if it's like a government check or something. And instead they would take it and spend it on what they wanted. And then so it's like shooting themselves in the foot twice. And I tried to explain it to them and they just did not get it. And they resisted what I was trying to tell them. And I'm like, guys, come on.

[George Camel]

Common sense is hard to come by these days.

[Anthony O'Neal]

Yeah.

[George Camel]

Brad Barnett is the director of financial aid and scholarships at James Madison University. He sees students get sucked into bad spending habits all the time.

[Brad Barnett]

I think for some students, they're so into today, I'll deal with it, tomorrow, I'll be making money, tomorrow I'll be fine. My point to them is the social aspect and the peer pressure spending and all the stuff you're doing now when you graduate doesn't go away. And a lot of them think that, well, I'm just going to enjoy this because I only have four years and I won't have the same pressures when I get out. The same pressures are there. It's just a different network. And to some degree the pressures ramp up because there's bigger zeros on it because now you're around people who are making more money and then there's more pressure to do more and to spend more than as that broke college student. And it's a wake up call. And some of them don't really wake up until decades down the road.

[George Camel]

That's a long time to be asleep at the wheel when it comes to managing your money. Rachel Cruze, host of the Rachel Cruze show, as well as Anthony o' Neal, have some thoughts on how to avoid the lifestyle trap.

[Rachel Cruze]

Focus on what's important. Like, yes, I want you to have fun. I want you to have some great friends and enjoy your college experience. I did. I loved college. It was so Fun. But you have to know the reason you're there. You're paying all of this money not just to hang out with friends, but you're paying this money to get a degree. And so if you're there, go to class, study, work hard, focus on your priority and remember to live like a college student. You are not a 24 year old with your first job. You are a college student, which means you're probably broke and that's okay. And embrace it. Like this is the time you don't have responsibility to take care of other people. This is the time if you have to eat frozen pizzas and ramen noodles, like that's what it is and enjoy it. This season of life is not gonna come all the time. And I would rather you live like a college student while you're in college than try to live like a 25 year old and then graduate and have to go back to live like a college student. Cause you have no money and so much debt. And the good thing is too everyone else around you is in the same boat. Like be broke together, enjoy the time of life, because that's the time that you can actually be broke and enjoy it.

[Anthony O'Neal]

You know, there's nothing wrong with the college lifestyle out there. I believe that there's a time and place for everything. I want you to have a good time while you're in college. I want you to enjoy the college experience. But I do not want you to fall for the lifestyle as in have the lifestyle own you. I remember being on a college campus and I see all of my friends have the latest shoes. And I remember taking out that student loan and I went and spent the whole check, the whole check, the first student loan check, on overalls and T shirts. Because I wanted to look like what my parents were looking like. Then the next time I went out there and bought some shoes and the next time I went out there and financed a whole trip for all of my peers and I to go to Las Vegas. Because of the lifestyle, I wanted to enjoy spring break. I wanted to go out to the beach and turn up and have a good time. I spent $10,000 on my student loans just so I can have a lifestyle. Not one penny, hear me clearly, not one penny. Went towards books, towards education. It went towards the lifestyle. The fun part of college, do not take out student loans while you're in college. And not even just student loans when you do not do debt, period, while you're in college. You're starting off and you're transitioning into the real world much better than nearly 70% of the individuals who graduate from college. Mind you, the average person is going to graduate with $35,000 in debt. You're graduating with zero. Do not allow these four years, these four, five, six years that you're in school. Do not allow the lifestyle to be the reason why you're in bondage for the next 20, 30, 40 years. Sacrifice. Act like you're broke. So that way when you do graduate college, you can start enjoying some of the things that you wanted to enjoy. But now you're in your career and you have the resources, the financial resources to enjoy it.

[George Camel]

Many consider college to be an investment for your future, which is why they're willing to go into debt for it. But like any investment, you're hoping for an ROI return on investment. Here's Dave Ramsey, best selling author, financial expert and host of the Dave Ramsey show with his take on the value of a college degree.

[Brad Barnett]

You can't, across the map say college degree always gives you this roi. People attempt to do that. They say, well, college graduates on average make more than non college graduates. But the problem is you're leaving out the stupid stuff. And so what you've got to do is look at your particular degree field and say, if I get a degree in business, if I get a degree in communication, if I get a degree in left handed puppetry, if I get a degree in German polka history, what lift am I going to get in that field? And then you can say, okay, that lift is the ROI on the spend. And that keeps you from getting caught up in this idea that college is always a good idea. College is not always a good idea any more than home ownership is always a good idea.

[George Camel]

Figuring out the ROI on your degree is just one piece of the puzzle. That piece of paper may not be enough to land you your dream job. There's more to it. According to Ken Coleman, career expert and host of the Ken Coleman Show.

[Brad Barnett]

There's a massive myth out there that if you go to a really good school, you pick a good major and you get good grades, that the moment you move the tassel and walk off the stage, employers are blowing your phone up. We want you. You're special. You had a good grade point average and picked a very attractive major. It's a giant myth. Here's what we know. We have a real scourge, a real problem in America where people are coming out of college with a degree and they're overqualified for what they can actually get because the degree is not as important as it used to be for employers. And so you've got to be very careful to say, is this major, is this degree truly preparing me for my future? You don't want to be in a situation where you're stuck having to get a job that you don't want just to bring in enough money to service the debt payment on your student loan. It's a big question facing a lot of kids and parents and it's is college worth it? This is a big time question that's costing people a lot of money if they don't answer it the right way. Because there is this cultural expectation that when a young person comes out of high school, the next step in their life, it's like a rite of passage. If you're going to be successful, that means you've got to go to a four year college. And that has put a lot of pressure, parents and young people, and not just emotional pressure, because there's a certain amount of anxiety. I got to make the right choices. A very big choice is affecting my future. Oh my gosh, where do I go? What's my major? These are the real things that pop up. But now we know that this is a financial crisis. The cost of higher education has truly skyrocketed. So you combine the cost of education going up with the expectation that my son or daughter needs to go to college and the kid feels the same thing. I'm going to let my parents down if I don't go to college. Now we're forcing young people into a bad financial decision. And so we have to step back and say, wait a second, what is it that my child was put on this planet to do? Young person, you got to say, hey, what is it that I was put on this planet to do? What makes my heart sing? What kind of work do I dream about and fantasize about? What results draw me in? I better make sure that any future decision is based on that desired future.

[George Camel]

It's clear that there's a ton of pressure on students when it comes to college. And that pressure can stem largely from their parents. Here's someone who has lots of experience working with teens and parents, Dr. Meg Meeker.

[Dr. Meg Meeker]

We don't have a student loan crisis. We have a parenting crisis. And that's what every parent needs to face and any parent can.

[George Camel]

Dr. Meg has been a pediatrician for over 30 years. She's a best selling author and speaker and a leading authority on parenting and children's health.

[Dr. Meg Meeker]

We don't need to have a student loan crisis. If we would allow our kids to grow up to be who they were meant to be. And as parents, that's extremely hard for us to do when our self worth and self esteem is bound up in who our kids become. Because we take them in a direction, we push them in a direction that they're not supposed to go in. And when I say supposed to go in, I mean they're, they're countering the person that they really were meant to be. A lot of parents feel pressure to get their kids to perform because it's directly linked to their self esteem. You have to either keep the family traditions going or you have to perform well for our family. Because everything, if you think about it, it centers on the parents, what they perceive their needs. If the child goes to mom or dad's college, if the child goes to even a better college, if the child gets into a better college than a friend's, then it makes the parent feel more successful. So the child who goes to mom and dad's alma mater, the parent feels that they've succeeded. It's all about having parents feel they've succeeded. And that's why I say it's parent driven, not child driven. I think that the most important thing we need to do as parents is to back off and let our children sort of emerge and show us who they are and then gently direct them in one place or another and be willing to accept if our kids want a different goal than we want for them. Because our self worth is not bound up in what our kids do. And we need to drill that into our heads. But when we do succeed in believing that we are much freer and much happier as parents and we have a much greater relationship with our kids. I saw in an interesting study that a higher percent of teenagers want to spend more time with their parents than the percent of parents who want to spend time with their kids. And that's very sad because parents don't understand how significant they are in their teenagers lives or the young kids lives. And they rob their kids of their presence and their time. This is my drum that I beat. Kids need more time with their parents and less time running around doing a lot of stuff. But parents won't do that because parents are still convinced that the kids need a great portfolio to do a lot of stuff, to get off to the best college so that they're successful. And it is not true. Parents need to help form strong attachments to their kids when they're young and make those attachments stronger as the child hits junior high and high school and the only way to do that is to spend time with your kids. You need to dial it down. You need to simplify your lives and your kids lives. And you need to spend more time sitting across a table either at dinner or after school saying, hey, talk to me about what's going on with this and listen. And that's what your kids want and need if you want them to succeed. They don't need more stuff to do. Because character isn't built on a soccer field or in band practice. It's built at a kitchen table with mom and dad.

[George Camel]

If you're a student listening and it feels like Dr. Meg, just read your diary entry. You might need to have a tough conversation with your parents. For the parents listening, don't let your self esteem rely on your kid's performance. Let your kids become who they were meant to be. Ken Coleman agrees.

[Brad Barnett]

The involvement of a parent in their child's future is wildly important. I mean, it's so influential that I don't think most parents realize that one little comment when having a conversation about your child's future can squash a dream. And I know this because I get calls almost every day from people in their 30s and 40s. And when I dig deep enough I find out that the reason they're not pursuing what they were put on this planet to do is because when they mentioned it to their mom or dad and their teens, mom or dad said, oh, I don't think that's a really steady career. I don't know that you can make good money and have the two car garage and the country club membership with that. And that's not what they said, but that's what they're saying. And so the child respects the parents so much and they question whether or not their heart is legitimate, what they're feeling in their heart, oh my gosh, mom and dad, who I respect and they're smart and they've been successful, if they're questioning this, I should question this. And we begin to let our brain take over our heart. And that is dangerous. So the role of the parent should be to ask lots of questions and be okay with the answers and give guidance to what the path might be towards the mountaintop that our children want to climb. That's the role guide. Ask lots of questions, let them reveal their own answers, don't shape their answers. That's dangerous. And let's not get started on unmet dreams that mom and dad have that sometimes they overlay those onto the dreams of our kids unwittingly. And they don't have any idea that they're squashing their kids dreams. Be very, very careful. Quiet, step back, ask lots of questions. Let their heart reveal itself.

[George Camel]

Parents putting pressure on their kids can cause them to do dumb things like taking out student loans when they're not even sure if college is the right next step. Gary Vaynerchuk has got something to say about that. He's a best selling author and entrepreneur. Here's a clip from his podcast, the Gary Vee Audio Experience.

[Brad Barnett]

There's no such thing as one thing works for everyone. And one of the scariest things in American society, one of the scariest things is parents putting pressure on kids to go to school to make the parent feel good and making the kid take on debt for that when the kid doesn't feel like they want to do that and then they come out the other side and they literally spend the next 15 years trying to reconcile that debt. That's why you have a lot of unhappy people. And then what that means is then they go, yay, I'm gonna vote for the person that's gonna wipe out college debt. I'm cheerleading for self awareness. I want all of you to think every single thing is your fault without judging yourself into depression, which, you know, everything's your fault. That's a great thing, means you're in control. Let's go.

[George Camel]

There's so much pressure and anxiety when it comes to college. So what can parents do to help their kids make the right decisions? From Anthony's perspective, it starts with having a conversation.

[Anthony O'Neal]

One of the things you could do as a parent to really set your child up for success is communicate. Ask them, hey, what are some of your dreams as a child? Where do you want to go in life? How can I help you get there? How can we, your mom and I, your father and I, help you get to your dreams? And when they identify what they want to do and how they want to do it, be honest with them and tell them up front, hey, this is what we have. We can bring this to the table. But you have to bring something to the table. One of the biggest mistakes I see parents do is they force their parent dreams onto the child and they pay for it. So now the child is not their dream and they have no sweat equity in it. So the very first thing you could do is communicate. Learn what each other desire and see in the future. And then two, come up with a plan together. Work together to build a plan for your child's life. Let them speak into how they're going to do Things, let them say, you know what? I'm going to go get a job. I'm going to apply for scholarships. You know what, mom and dad, I'll go to community college. Let them feel like they're in the driver's seat and you're in the passenger seat. You're saying, hey, look, take this right, right here. But they're still driving. You're helping them get there the best way possible. But parents, hear me clearly. You cannot be in the driver's seat and they're in the passenger seat because passengers can get out. Drivers cannot make sure that they are driving their life and you're guiding them.

[George Camel]

Kat, an attorney from Pensacola, Florida, is a parent who guided her kid from the passenger seat and did it right. She learned from mistakes of her own. Take me back to the moment when you took out student loans. What was going on in your life?

[Kat]

Well, I went to undergrad right out of high school, and I had no plan at all. I had no idea where I was going to go or why or how I was going to pay for it. I hadn't talked to my parents about it. They didn't talk to me about it. Money wasn't something that we talked about a lot growing up. So I went to law school and went to all three years and graduated with, I know, at least $130,000 of student loan debt, probably much more. But again, it was so unintentional that I don't even know the full amount.

[George Camel]

Wow. So how did your sacrifice of getting out of debt affect your son's mindset around choosing a college and student loans?

[Kat]

You know, my entire life, up until that point of living in debt, that affected me to the point that I, you know, I drew a line in the sand and I, you know, it was no more. We're not going to take out student loans to get our kids through college because I don't want them to have to live the first 20 years of their freedom chained.

[George Camel]

So let's talk about your son. You mentioned him as he was going to school. Did you have any savings for him?

[Kat]

No, we did not. You know, like I said, we were in debt up until probably his senior year of high school or maybe a little bit before that. But up until then, we lived off of credit cards. We had car loans, all of those things. And we had never even discussed how we were going to get any of our kids through college. I wanted college for them, but we still didn't have a plan. We didn't have a how at that point.

[George Camel]

How did it feel knowing that you had no savings for your son to go to college?

[Kat]

How did it feel knowing we didn't have savings? I don't think it hit me the feeling until we were viewing schools for him and he had two schools that he really had selected to attend and he applied for both and one was Auburn University which was his dream school. He's always. And so we went to Auburn on, you know, like a field trip to go look at it and check it out. And at this point we had been in our debt free journey for probably almost a year. And so we show up at Auburn and we're going through all of the motions and walking around the campus and it's, you know, a beautiful campus. And at that point it hit me that even with scholarships that Auburn just wasn't a possibility because of the financial situation that we had found ourselves in. We couldn't afford to pay the out of state tuition and even with the scholarships he was going to get, they wouldn't cover out of state tuition. And so we were forced. I knew at that point there was a pivotal moment when I was standing on the campus at Auburn that I knew I was going to have to have this conversation with Dylan that we can't do this. I can't send you this school because it's going to require student loans because we don't have any other way to pay for it and I can't do that to you. We came home and I dreaded it for a few weeks. I thought about it and I was trying everything I could to get him to that school, but I knew I wasn't going to send him with student loans. And he came to me not too long after that and he made his decision to go to University of South Alabama in Mobile instead of Auburn.

[George Camel]

How did your son take this news that he wasn't going to go to his dream school? It sounded like it was on his terms, but it sounds like a very tough decision to make at 17, 18 years old to say, no, I'm not going to go to my dream school.

[Kat]

Dylan's reaction to not being able to go to Auburn was. It wasn't what I expected. I think it affected me more than it affected him. I think that he has always been a little bit more grounded and he knew that it was the best decision for him, you know, financially versus for me. I think it was, you know, it was just heartbreaking. You want to be able to give your kids whatever they want because of the choices that my husband and I had made up to that point we had to put him in a situation that he had to make that choice. And so I think it affected him to some degree, but I don't think it affected him nearly as much as it. As it did me.

[George Camel]

What would you tell parents who think they have to take out loans for their kids to go to college?

[Kat]

You know, I do feel for the parents. I understand that you want what's best for you, your kids, and you want them to have everything that they want. But at some point, you have to say no, because you have to let them grow up and become mature and make good decisions. Because otherwise, you know, it might take 20 years before they come to the realization, oh, it's time for me to grow up and become mature. And, you know, none of us want that for our kids.

[George Camel]

Yeah.

[Kat]

So college isn't the, you know, the only way for your children to succeed. And so if there's not a way to send them to college without student loan, then maybe the best thing for them to do is to do something different for a while and figure out what it is that they want to do and then find a way to go back to school debt free, if that's the journey. But just assuming that college is the only answer and that student loans is the only way to get there, you know, both of those assumptions are completely wrong.

[George Camel]

Being a parent and helping your kid make the right decisions about college is hard. There's no way around that. But there is a way to become successful without diving into a dumpster fire of debt for a college degree. Here's Anthony.

[Anthony O'Neal]

I remember my teachers, my counselors saying, you know what? Hey, son, if you want to be successful, you got to go to college. Hey, man, you need to go to Duke. Hey, man, you should check out Fayetteville State University. Hey, man, you should check out ucla. Anthony, if you don't go to college, nobody will remember you. You cannot get a good job if you do not have a bachelor's degree. Listen, you guys, you do not have to go to college. And honestly, college is not for everyone. Education is for everyone. But the route to college, the process of getting to college is not for everyone. I get sick and tired of hearing people say, you're going to go to college at all costs. We don't care what it takes. If we got to borrow this, if we got to sell this, whatever we got to do, we're going to get you there. Now listen, young people, I am your number one fan. I want to see you successful. I want to see you living out your dreams. I want to, but not at the cost of slowing down your future. Not at the cost of delaying your future. Not at the cost of you being in bondage and you being in stress and you being in debt. You not being able to get married, you not being able to get your car, you not being able to really enjoy your life because at all costs, you went to college just to impress and just to please your family. No, I want you to make the right decisions. I want you to get there with a healthy start. I want you to get there the best way possible for yourself. I want you to go to college. If you have to go to college. And when I say have to, this means you know for a fact you want to be a doctor. You can't go to a trade school for that. You cannot learn that on YouTube, so you have to go to college. Let's identify the best process for that. But if you're saying, oh, I want to be a hairstylist, but my family wants me to go to college, well, we gonna figure out how to respectfully tell your family, mom and dad, family, you're wrong. I'm not taking out student loans and I'm not going this route. I'm going this route. So if you're the first in your family, one, I want to salute you because there is something special about you. But two, do not rack up debt just to impress and just for your family, because your family's not going to be there to help you pay it back. Your family's not going to be there when you're stressed. You are going to be there. Let's make the best decisions right now to get you closer to accomplishing your dreams.

[George Camel]

Too many people are sleepwalking their way into college and student loan debt. What starts as the next step quickly turns into millions of students in decades of debt. College exists to prepare you for a job and your future, but it's not always the next step, and you need to determine if it's right for you. College is not the end. It's the beginning of your future. In the next episode, we'll dive into why we choose the colleges that we do, why a fancy college might not be worth the cost, and why a lazy river shouldn't be a deciding factor in your college choice.

[Seth Godin]

There is a lot of blame to go around here, but not only is there blame within the family, it's way bigger than that, because the real blame is we built the system and the system evolved because every piece in the system did what it was supposed to do.

[George Camel]

Join me you've been listening to Borrowed Future. If you like what you've heard, do us a favor and rate and review us on Apple Podcasts. It helps. You can find more information about this and other Ramsey network [e-mail] or on your favorite podcast app. Our show is produced by Chris Wright, Eric Cieslevich, Eva Daniel and Kevin Weimer. Music has been curated by James Childs. Will Rutter is our engineer. Our editor is Tim Hull. Blake Thompson is our executive producer. I'm George Camel. And remember, you can measure the ROI on a degree, but not on your mother. She's priceless.