Podcast Summary

Podcast: Brain Science with Ginger Campbell, MD: Neuroscience for Everyone
Host: Dr. Ginger Campbell
Guest: Dr. Alan Jasanoff (MIT neuroscientist and author of The Biological Mind: How Brain, Body, and Environment Collaborate to Make Us Who We Are)
Episode: BS 146 — Premium Ad-Free Version
Date: June 21, 2018

Episode Overview

This episode delves into the central theme of Dr. Alan Jasanoff's book, The Biological Mind, which challenges the prevailing tendency—both in science and society—to equate the mind entirely with the brain, a problem Jasanoff terms “the cerebral mystique.” The conversation explores the reductionist view of human nature as “being our brains,” the historical and conceptual roots of this perspective, and its scientific and ethical limitations. Dr. Jasanoff and Dr. Campbell discuss why understanding the inseparable collaboration of brain, body, and environment is vital—not only to neuroscience, but also to addressing issues like mental health and behavior.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Dr. Jasanoff’s Path to Neuroscience

• Background: Trained in molecular biology, biophysics, and chemistry, Jasanoff came to neuroscience through an interest in bridging molecular analysis with whole-organism questions.
• Broad interests: His trajectory led him to question the "groupthink" in neuroscience, especially around the reductionist mapping of mind/soul onto the brain.
• Quote [04:55]:

  “I was sort of seduced by the feeling that this field is helping us learn about ourselves. But actually the way that people talk about the brain… it hasn’t really fundamentally changed how we behave as people.” — Dr. Alan Jasanoff

2. The Core Themes of The Biological Mind

• We Are Not Just Our Brains: Jasanoff critiques the popular catchphrase, “We are our brains,” noting its social and scientific pitfalls ([05:37]).
• Cerebral Mystique: The concept describes an idealization of the brain as uniquely complex, powerful, and distinct from body/environment—a modern echo of mind-body dualism ([07:10]).
• Critique of Dualism: The cerebral mystique creates a scientific dualism paralleling historical philosophies, notably Descartes’ dualism, by placing the “self” wholly in the brain.
• Implications: Leads society to seek “brain-only” solutions for problems like criminal behavior, mental illness, and intelligence.

3. The Brain as an Abiotic Machine: Limitations of the Analogy

• Brain vs. Computer: The analogy, though useful, accentuates the view of the brain as an uploadable, cloneable entity ([11:50]).
• Chemical Complexity: Emphasizes the underappreciated importance of brain chemistry, especially roles played by molecules and glial cells, over the solely electrical/circuit view prevalent in neuroscience.
• Memorable Metaphor [16:57]:

  “I sometimes analogize the difference between the kind of electrical view of the brain...with this alternative view that emphasizes chemicals and glia...to this figure-ground illusion...they’re both just as real.” — Dr. Alan Jasanoff

4. Embodiment and Integration with the Environment

• Case Study: C. elegans: Even with a complete wiring diagram, scientists can’t fully predict its behavior, illustrating that brains cannot be understood in isolation from the body ([17:41]).

• Human Example: Paganini: Extraordinary musical feats attributed not just to brainpower, but to unique bodily (joint) flexibility, influencing both performance and imagination ([19:33]).

  • Quote [19:39]:

    “When you have possibilities to generate music using your body, it also shapes your ideas about what music is possible.”

• Absence of Action Potentials: Some organisms, like C. elegans, lack conventional neuron firing, challenging assumptions about what’s essential for nervous systems ([20:59]).

5. Brain Complexity and Its Dangers

• Complexification: The brain’s complexity is often invoked to mystify or discourage close study, reinforcing its status as separate or fundamentally unknowable ([22:03]).
• Myth-Busting Examples: Cases where humans have lost major parts of their brains (e.g., cerebellum, hemispheres), yet function with normal cognition ([24:44]).
  • Quote [25:36]:

    “The brain is complex, but all of that complexity is not necessarily required to explain its function.” — Dr. Alan Jasanoff

6. The Role of Environment

• The Flood of Sensory Data: The brain receives immense amounts of environmental data (10MB/sec), directly modulating brain states and behavior ([27:39]).

• Empirical Studies: Shared environmental stimuli (like a movie) can synchronize brain activity among different people, even in higher-order cognitive regions ([29:11]).

• Temperature & Aggression: Subtle environmental factors (e.g., ambient temperature) can influence aggression—even affecting police officers’ actions within minutes ([30:45]).

  • Quote [31:30]:

    “When we think about causes of crime, even causes of cultural differences...those [environmental] backdrops actually help influence them.”

• Multifactorial Influences: Case of Charles Whitman illustrates the necessity for broad assessments—involving social, environmental, and biological dimensions—in explaining behavior ([32:52]).

7. Consequences of the Cerebral Mystique

• History of Psychology: Shifts from soul/mind-based explanations to behaviorism (environment), then the cognitive revolution (inner workings of brain/mind), have pushed us toward “brain-only” thinking ([34:42]).
• Integration Needed: Both internal and external factors collaborate to shape who we are.

8. The “Brain in a Vat” Thought Experiment

• Philosophical Limitations: A disembodied brain—regardless of technological input—misses key experiential elements, especially emotion, which require real biological/body-environment interactions ([38:21]).
  • Quote [40:01]:

    “If you were just a brain in a vat… your experiences would be quite different. If you think about what makes our lives rich, a lot of that is...the emotional color on our experiences.”

9. Implications for Mental Illness and Society

• Reductionism & Stigma: While brain-based models for mental illness have grown popular, they can actually augment stigma and narrow treatment options ([41:43]).
• Societal Dangers: Cites historical atrocities (e.g., Nazi Aktion T4) linked to viewing people as reducible to brain pathology ([42:50]).
• Environmental & Genetic Interplay: Mental illness is not explained by genes alone; broader environmental factors (season of birth, urban living, ethnicity) are significant contributors ([43:48]).

  • Quote [44:45]:

    “If we want to solve the problems of mental illness, we also have to look beyond the brain as well as in the brain for our solutions.”

  • Addiction & Funding: Biomedical (“brain disease”) models dominate funding, often at the expense of effective behavioral/social interventions ([44:58]).

10. Advice to Students and Lay Audiences

• For Students: Look outside conventional boundaries/be open to broader influences; unique insights often come from integrative thinking ([45:49]).

  • Quote [46:00]:

    "Looking outside the box… is going to help you see more of the picture. You could see aspects of a problem that other people haven't seen."

• For the General Public:

  • Don’t mystify the brain—understand it as an organ, deeply interwoven with body and context.

  • Adopt a systems perspective: The brain, while central, is a nexus for many influences and not the solitary source of identity or behavior.

  • Jasanoff’s Message [46:50]:

    “I do really hope that people keep [in mind] that… our brains may be kind of nodes in the world, but they're part of a fabric.”

  • Campbell’s Analogy [48:05]:

    "The brain is the engine, but it's not the whole car."

  • Jasanoff’s Addition [48:15]:

    “The roads, the traffic lights, the community that sets traffic laws—all that stuff is part of it too.”

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Reductionism:

  “There's a catchphrase that people sometimes use. We are our brains... the more generic tendency is really alive in our society to map ourselves onto our brains.” – Jasanoff [05:45]

• On the Computer Analogy:

  “When something is a computer, we can think of copying it, cloning it, we can think of sending it through space… it brings with it mysterious, otherworldly characteristics we wouldn’t ascribe to our livers or our hearts.” – Jasanoff [12:49]

• On Environmental Influence:

  “The environment kind of penetrates into us. We don’t get to decide that. Environmental stimuli actually influence what’s going in our brains, whether we like it or not.” – Jasanoff [27:49]

• On the Limits of Complexity:

  “Dwelling on [the brain’s] complexity, although it sounds nifty, may actually be counterproductive...whereas we ought to be able to look at it as a down to earth organ.” – Jasanoff [25:54]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Introduction & Motivation – 00:04–05:04
• Themes of the Book Explained – 05:37–11:38
• The Brain as an Abiotic Machine Critiqued – 11:50–17:25
• C. elegans & Deep Embodiment Examples – 17:41–20:59
• Brain Complexity Myth Debunking – 22:03–26:06
• Environment’s Role in Brain Function – 27:39–34:32
• Consequences of Brain-Body Dualism – 34:42–38:04
• ‘Brain in a Vat’ Thought Experiment – 38:21–41:43
• Mental Illness & Broader Social Implications – 41:43–44:58
• Advice for Students and Laypeople – 45:49–48:30

Takeaways

• The human mind arises from an intricate collaboration of brain, body, and environment—not from the brain alone.
• Overemphasizing brain-centric views risks reinforcing a new form of dualism and undermines holistic approaches to issues like mental health.
• Integrative, critical, and down-to-earth perspectives are essential—both for scientific progress and social understanding.

For more detailed exploration, listen to the full episode, or consult Dr. Alan Jasanoff’s The Biological Mind.