Brains On presents - Rocket women: How a secret program paved the way for female astronauts

Summary

---

Brains On presents – Rocket Women: How a Secret Program Paved the Way for Female Astronauts

Podcast: Brains On! Science podcast for kids
Host: Joy Dolo (with Molly Bloom, Elsa, and guest Loretta Hall)
Episode Release: December 30, 2025

---

Episode Overview

This engaging, story-driven episode journeys into the little-known history of the women known as the FLATs—Fellow Lady Astronaut Trainees—who, in the 1960s, participated in secret tests to prove women could be astronauts. Hosted in classic Brains On! style, the episode interweaves playful, imaginative storytelling (involving a black hole–stuffed closet) with deeply researched, factual accounts of these pioneering women and the obstacles they faced. The episode highlights how the efforts of the FLATs helped break down barriers for future generations of female astronauts.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Scene: The Space Race

• [09:51] The 1950s were a time of rapid technological advancement and growing fascination with outer space.
• The launch of Sputnik 1 in 1957 by the Soviet Union kicked off the space race.
• [11:54] Both the U.S. and the USSR chased milestone after milestone, each seeking to outdo the other.

2. Barriers for Women in Aerospace

• [14:09] Although technically no law barred women from becoming astronauts, NASA required applicants to be military test pilots—a profession closed to women at the time.
• [14:33] Pioneering pilot Jerry Cobb was introduced as an example of the talented women shut out of NASA’s astronaut program.

3. Meet the FLATs—Fellow Lady Astronaut Trainees

• [17:37] Dr. William Randall Lovelace started a secret program to test whether women could make good astronauts, positing that their smaller size and lower resource needs could be advantageous.
• [18:08] Jerry Cobb signed up first, later joined by 24 female pilots who were put through tests as rigorous—and grueling—as those faced by the (all-male) Mercury Seven.
  • Tests included swallowing a rubber tube as long as a baseball bat, spinning tables, and having ice water shot into their ears.

Notable Quote

"I had needles stuck in every part of my body, tubes running up my bottom. So I went along with it. It didn’t bother me." —Wally Funk, reflecting on the tests (20:18)

• [20:26] Twelve additional women, including Jane Hart (age 41, skilled pilot and senator’s wife) and Wally Funk (youngest at 21), passed the tests with flying colors.

4. The Program Canceled

• [21:22–31:05] As the women were set to begin further testing at a naval base in Florida, the U.S. government discovered the program and halted it. The Navy withdrew support without official NASA authorization.

  • Guest expert Loretta Hall:

    "NASA came back and said, what testing? We haven’t authorized any." (31:15)

• [31:34] Life magazine published a feature on Jerry Cobb, sparking national attention and inspiring women and girls to write to Vice President Lyndon Johnson, urging support for women in space.

Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

"The intelligence, patriotism, initiative, and creative ability of women is the most wasted resource in this country." —Letter excerpt read aloud (32:27)

• [32:59] Despite public interest, Vice President Johnson decided training women would "slow things down" and scribbled “Let’s stop this now” on a memo.

5. Fighting for Equality

• [33:39] Jerry Cobb and Jane Hart testified before Congress for the right to continue the program, but their arguments were dismissed despite their qualifications.

"They were genuinely trying to accomplish something for their group of women. They were not taken seriously." —Loretta Hall (33:48)

• [34:08] Meanwhile, the Soviet Union sent the first woman, Valentina Tereshkova, into space in 1963.

6. Legacy and Progress

• [35:03] The program’s cancellation coincided with larger social shifts: the civil rights and women's rights movements helped usher in laws making workplace discrimination illegal.
• [36:06] While the FLATs never flew, their advocacy helped future women break through barriers.
  • In 1995, Eileen Collins became the first woman to pilot a US space shuttle. Surviving FLATs were present to watch.
  • Wally Funk, the youngest FLAT, went to space at age 82 in 2021.

"She was just so delighted that her dream finally came true...she made it into space. And that’s what she’d been striving for for so long."
—Loretta Hall, about Wally Funk (37:09)

• [35:53–36:06] The Artemis program aims to put the first woman and the first person of color on the moon by 2025.

---

Chronological Highlights with Timestamps

• [09:51] – 1950s context: space fever, Sputnik, start of the space race
• [14:09] – Military pilot requirement blocks women
• [17:22] – Dr. Lovelace and the secret testing program
• [18:41] – Grueling physical tests for Jerry Cobb
• [20:18] – Wally Funk’s vivid recounting of test hardships
• [21:31] – Program abruptly halted when discovered by authorities
• [31:15, 31:34–32:27] – National reaction, Life magazine story, letters to VP Johnson
• [32:59] – Johnson: “Let’s stop this now”
• [33:39–34:08] – Congressional hearings, ultimate dismissal
• [34:08] – 1963: Valentina Tereshkova goes to space
• [35:03] – Social movements and legal change
• [36:06, 36:27, 37:04] – Women’s achievements: Eileen Collins piloting shuttle, Wally Funk’s eventual spaceflight, Artemis moon plans

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• [14:33]
  "She got her solo pilot’s license when she was 16, and by the time she was 20, she had her private and commercial pilot's license. All she wanted was to get a job flying planes."
  — Joy Dolo, on Jerry Cobb's determination

• [20:18]
  "I had needles stuck in every part of my body, tubes running up my bottom. So I went along with it. It didn’t bother me."
  — Wally Funk

• [32:27]
  "The intelligence, patriotism, initiative, and creative ability of women is the most wasted resource in this country."
  — Letter to Vice President Johnson, read aloud

• [33:48]
  "They were genuinely trying to accomplish something for their group of women. They were not taken seriously."
  — Loretta Hall

• [37:04]
  "She was 82 at the time, making her the oldest person to ever go to space."
  — Elsa, on Wally Funk

---

Conclusion

The episode ends on a note of triumph and hope. While the pioneering women of the FLATs/“Mercury 13” never made it to space themselves, their effort and persistence helped break down doors for the women who followed. The ongoing work for equality continues, but as the Artemis program promises: the first woman and the first person of color may soon set foot on the moon, a testament to the trailblazing women who helped make it possible.

---

Further Listening

If you want more on the history of women’s achievements or the origins of other everyday things, check out Forever Ago, Brains On’s sister show—just as the episode cross-promotes at the beginning!

---

For more history adventures and to submit your own questions, visit foreverago.org/contact.

---

Transcript

[Narrator/Advertiser]

Let's talk about protein. It's all anybody seems to talk about lately, and for good reason. So many people want to build muscle and support their existing muscle. But getting enough doesn't have to mean eating yet another bland chicken breast at the end of the day. To hit your protein goal, Ratio protein yogurt has 25 grams of protein per cup. That's more protein than four whole eggs. Not only is it packed with protein, but Ratio protein has a smooth and creamy texture, so there's no need to compromise. Great taste hitting your wellness goals, whatever they are. If you like a blend of citrus and sweetness, you might want to try their Key lime pie flavor. And get this ratio protein's 25 grams of protein is the most protein per cup in the yogurt aisle, plus zero added sugar. This helps you get the fuel you need to power through your day. Ratio does the math so you don't have to head to ratiofood.com to find a retailer near you.

[Molly]

Hi Molly, Mark and Sanon here.

[Mark]

Say, are you in New Jersey or Southern California?

[Joy Dolo]

How about Seattle or Vancouver?

[Mark]

If you answered yes to any of those, great news, we're headed your way.

[Joy Dolo]

That's right. Brains on Live is on the road again, so watch out.

[Molly]

Newark, Red Bank, Anaheim and San Diego.

[Joy Dolo]

We'Re coming for you. Vancouver and Seattle, we're gonna be singing, dancing, sciencing and more all on stage. You'll learn about the Brain and guess some mystery sounds.

[Mark]

Plus we'll have VIP events at our shows where you can see me do some magic and you can play games with us and take funny pictures with us that you'll treasure for all time.

[Joy Dolo]

I've been working on my funny faces. Check it out. What do you think?

[Mark]

So goofy. So goofy. Good job.

[Molly]

Tickets go fast, so get yours. Now go to brainson.org events and if you aren't in one of those places, hang tight. We're going to be announcing more shows very soon. Can't wait to see you.

[Mark]

Hey, speaking of magic, watch me make this announcement disappear a Lacazette.

[Joy Dolo]

Lemonade.

[Molly]

Hello friends, it's me, Molly. We're on a little winter break and we're going to be back with a new Brains on episode next week. This week we have an episode of our sister show Forever Ago to share with you. If you're interested in origin stories or history, this is the show for you. You can subscribe wherever you listen to Brains On.

[Elsa]

We hope you enjoy Brains On Universe. Joy. Hey Joy, are you home?

[Joy Dolo]

I'm in my room. Follow the sound of My voice. Hey, Elsa. Thanks so much for coming over. I need your help organizing my room.

[Elsa]

Whoa, Joy. There's a lot going on in here. Is that a giant golden cupcake?

[Joy Dolo]

Oh, yeah. It's a trophy. I won the US Cupcake Eating Contest back in 08. But I won't bore you with the details. Here, I'll just throw that in my closet.

[Elsa]

What about that thing?

[Joy Dolo]

That's the magical flute. I used to lure all the squirrels out of my chimney a few years ago. So many squirrels. I won't bore you with the details, but I can't get rid of it.

[Elsa]

Joy, is that what I think it is?

[Joy Dolo]

Oh, yeah. That's her. Me. My baby elephant. I won't bore you with the details. Yeah. Here, you get on that side, and I'll get on this side, and we'll just nudge him in the closet.

[Elsa]

Joy, how are you able to fit all of this stuff in your closet?

[Joy Dolo]

Oh, I've always been able to throw things in there that couldn't go anywhere else.

[Elsa]

Haven't you ever wondered what's in there?

[Joy Dolo]

I mean, maybe sometimes.

[Elsa]

Come on. Let's just take a little peeky poo. Just a peeky poo. Just a little peeky poo.

[Molly]

Wow.

[Elsa]

Where are we? Oh, it's so dark in here.

[Joy Dolo]

Oh, shoot. I forgot. I threw a black hole in my closet.

[Elsa]

You did what?

[Joy Dolo]

I had to put it somewhere. Elsa. Oh, look, my fuzzy unicorn onesie. Mmm. So cozy.

[Elsa]

Wait. You've been throwing all your stuff into a black hole in your closet?

[Joy Dolo]

It's perfect. A black hole is a place in space that has so much gravity that nothing can get out. Not even light or Hermey. It's the perfect storage closet.

[Elsa]

Joy.

[Joy Dolo]

Huh?

[Elsa]

If nothing can get out, how are we supposed to.

[Joy Dolo]

Don't worry about it. I've got an anti gravitational transporter ray somewhere in here. We just got to find it. And look. A bag of peanuts for Hermey. Welcome to Forever Ago from APM Studios. I'm Joy Dolo.

[Elsa]

And I'm Elsa. Today we're stuck in a black hole with a baby elephant and about 500 pounds of old junk.

[Joy Dolo]

Um, excuse me. My collection of limited edition presidential snow globes is not junk. And this is exciting. Who would have thought we'd spend the afternoon, and potentially the rest of our lives, trapped in space? I mean, sure, I was supposed to take my pet rat to the vet today and get my car fixed. Oh, and give a toast at my cousin's wedding. Whoops.

[Elsa]

Don't forget, we're also Supposed to talk about the history of women astronauts today.

[Joy Dolo]

Oh, that's right. But we can still do it. I mean, we are in space, after all. Elsa, what do you know about astronauts?

[Elsa]

Well, I know that they have a very brave and daring job. And you have to have a lot of mental and physical abilities. And the training process is really difficult.

[Joy Dolo]

Oh, yeah, I've heard that, too. Like, I wonder if I could even do it because, like, when I was in school, we used to do, like, track and field day. And I had to do, like, you know, run the mile or whatever. And I was always, like, middle last. Very middle, middle last.

[Elsa]

That's about where I am.

[Mark]

You too?

[Joy Dolo]

It's hard. It's physical, so we got to respect that. Have you ever dreamed about what it'd be like to go to space?

[Elsa]

Well, I. When I was in, like, kindergarten to first grade, I loved space.

[Science Explainer]

Oh.

[Elsa]

I really wanted to be an astronaut for a period of time. But now, like, one of my greatest fears is being alone. And I feel like in space, just thinking about how lonely you would be and how small you are and just, like, seeing the whole, like, galaxy around you, that's just. It's pretty intimidating.

[Joy Dolo]

It is pretty intimidating. Yeah. Do you have a favorite fact or anything that you like specifically about space?

[Elsa]

Well, what I like about space is that there's zero gravity.

[Joy Dolo]

Yeah.

[Elsa]

So, like, if you're, like. If you're not a great dancer, if you're not really flexible, you can, like, totally, I guess, jump around, do cartwheels, and, like, have fun jumping around in space. I would totally wanna do that.

[Joy Dolo]

I think I would do that, too. It'd be cool to get, like, a trampoline in sp. Space. Like, do, like, crazy flips and stuff. So today we're talking about women astronauts and.

[Elsa]

Wait, hold up, Joy. I can barely see where you are. Before we start. Can we get some light in here?

[Joy Dolo]

Here. What if I just owe you?

[Elsa]

Oh, there's something spiky over there. Oh, that's.

[Joy Dolo]

That's. That's okay. That's my old banana. That's from, like. That's something I got in middle school.

[Elsa]

Oh, that's kind of gross.

[Joy Dolo]

I'm going to move over behind you. I'm gonna go behind you, I think. There. I knew I had a campfire in here somewhere.

[Elsa]

Ah, much better.

[Joy Dolo]

The story of the first American woman to go to space is pretty well known.

[Elsa]

Yeah. Sally Ride was a physicist who flew on the Challenger space shuttle in 1983. And it was a really big deal.

[Joy Dolo]

And liftoff. Liftoff of STS7 and America's first woman astronau.

[Elsa]

Hey, where'd that little TV come from?

[Joy Dolo]

Oh, I put it in here so Hermey could watch his favorite nature documentaries. He's such a David Attenborough fanboy. Anyway, it was a groundbreaking moment in history. When Sally Ride went to space, A Russian woman named Valentina Tereshkova had already gone to space before her. But what you might not know is that before either of them, a group of bold, courageous women almost made it there.

[Elsa]

They were part of a super secret astronaut testing program for women. They called themselves the flats.

[Joy Dolo]

FLATS stands for fellow lady astronaut trainees. And today we're telling their story.

[Elsa]

Yeah. They spent years training and making a case for why women should be allowed to become astronauts just like men.

[Joy Dolo]

And by pushing for change, they helped build a foundation for generations of women who came after them.

[Elsa]

To really tell their story, we have to go back to the 1950s.

[Joy Dolo]

Technology was advancing really quickly. Around this time. The microwave oven had just been invented. Computers were so huge, they took up entire rooms.

[Elsa]

And people were obsessed with outer space. At this point, humans had only ever seen space through a telescope. And there was still so much we didn't know about.

[Joy Dolo]

So people spent a lot of time imagining what it was like. There were books and comics and even a bunch of TV shows all about space. Here, hand me that remote. Today, the famous craft TV cameraman focuses on outer space for another exciting adventure in the world beyond tomorrow.

[Elsa]

But space fever was just getting started. In 1957, the world's first human made satellite was launched into orbit. Sputnik 1. And it was built by a country called the Soviet Union.

[Joy Dolo]

The Soviet Union used to be this massive nation that spanned Eastern Europe and included Russia. Eventually it would break up into a bunch of separate countries a few decades later. But at the time, it was super powerful.

[Elsa]

And building the Sputnik satellite was a big accomplishment for them. It was about the size of a beach ball and could circle the entire planet in just over an hour and a half.

[Joy Dolo]

Nowadays there are thousands of satellites circling the Earth day and night. But Sputnik was the very first. And its launch marked the start of something big. The space race.

[Elsa]

It sounds kind of like a really long marathon in outer space.

[Joy Dolo]

Yeah, or rushing to get as far away from other people as possible. Like, out of my way people, give me some space.

[Elsa]

The actual space race was even more intense. It was this decades long competition between the U.S. and the Soviet Union to see who could be the first to get to outer space.

[Joy Dolo]

A few months After Sputnik goes up, the Americans try to send their own satellite into space. A tiny one, the size of a soft ball. The rocket lifts just a few feet into the air and then crashes onto the launch pad, exploding into a fireball.

[Molly]

Whoa.

[Joy Dolo]

Talk about a flopnik.

[Mark]

More like stay putnik, am I right?

[Elsa]

But eventually, NASA scientists figure out the kinks and send the first American satellite into space. Then another and another.

[Soviet Satellite Voice]

Oh, you think your satellite is fancy? Look at our American satellite. It's super shiny, and it has a cosmic ray detector.

[Joy Dolo]

Well, we just sent a dog into space in ours.

[Soviet Satellite Voice]

Oh, yeah? Well, we're gonna send two monkeys into space.

[Elsa]

Even as the two countries are launching satellites into orbit and constantly one upping each other, they have their sights set on something much bigger. The moon. Yeah, I know Hermey. Oh, wait. He just wants another peanut.

[Joy Dolo]

The Americans and the Soviets both really wanted to be the first to land on the moon. In 1961, President John F. Kennedy set a pretty ambitious goal. Hermie, where's that remote? I believe that this nation should commit itself to achieving the goal before this decade is out, of landing a man on the moon and returning him safely to the earth.

[Elsa]

President Kennedy said the US Would try to put an American astronaut on the moon by the end of the 1960s.

[Joy Dolo]

And that really turned up the heat on NASA to make it happen, build the space shuttles, train the astronauts, all of it.

[Soviet Satellite Voice]

All right, everyone, you heard president Kennedy. We have to work faster from now on. New rule. No more walking around NASA headquarters. To save time, we're gonna run from room to room starting now.

[Elsa]

At this point, there weren't any rules saying that women couldn't become astronauts.

[Joy Dolo]

But NASA did require all astronaut applicants to be military test pilots.

[Elsa]

And that was a job that was not open to women at the time because women were not allowed to be in military comb cat roles.

[Joy Dolo]

So women in the u. S. Were automatically excluded from becoming astronauts. Even women who were highly trained pilots with years of flying experience, like Jerry Cobb.

[Elsa]

Jerry grew up in Oklahoma in the 1930s. She started flying small planes with her dad when she was about 12 years old.

[Joy Dolo]

And from the beginning, she was hooked. She got her solo pilot's license when she was 16, and by the time she was 20, she had her private and commercial pilot's license. All she wanted was to get a job flying planes.

[Elsa]

But at first, no one would hire her because she was a woman.

[Joy Dolo]

Today, there are laws saying you can't skip over someone for a job because they're a woman or a person of Color have a different religion from you, or have a disability. But back then, employers did this a lot. And for women, that meant they didn't get a lot of jobs.

[Elsa]

But after applying and applying and applying, Jerry finally landed a job as a co pilot in Florida.

[Joy Dolo]

But when she showed up for her first day of work, well, let's just say things didn't go as planned.

[Mark]

You put Jerry on your application, so we thought you were a man. How were we supposed to know Jerry is short for Geraldine? Sorry, ma', am, but women just don't belong in the cockpit.

[Joy Dolo]

Don't worry, though. I'm sure someone around here needs a secretary.

[Elsa]

But Jerry didn't give up. She kept applying for jobs, and eventually she got one. Working as a pilot for a company that delivered airplanes all over the world, including B17 bombers.

[Joy Dolo]

You know what? I think I have one of those in here.

[Elsa]

Joy, you put a bomber plane in your closet, black hole? Do I even want to know?

[Joy Dolo]

Oh, you can find anything at a garage sale.

[Elsa]

Uh huh. Anyway, Jerry's new job was dangerous. She flew back and forth to South America, over jungles and through the Andes mountains.

[Joy Dolo]

One time she was even arrested in Ecuador because officials there thought she was a spy.

[Elsa]

And while she was doing all of this, she was also smashing world records.

[Joy Dolo]

This hotshot lady pilot just can't be stopped, folks. I'll tell you, she's really something to watch. Here she comes right now.

[Mark]

She's.

[Joy Dolo]

Oh, look out. In 1959, the year she turned 28, Jerry broke two world records. The record for longest non stop flight and the fastest ever flight. That year, she was named Pilot of the Year by the National Pilots Association.

[Elsa]

By this point, she had spent 7,000 hours flying planes.

[Joy Dolo]

And it's around this time that she meets Dr. William Randall Loveless.

[Elsa]

He's a scientist that NASA hired to help test and select the first seven American astronauts.

[Joy Dolo]

They were called the Mercury Seven, and they were all men.

[Elsa]

Which is not surprising, because like we mentioned earlier, NASA required all astronauts at the time to be military test pilots. A job that was not open to women.

[Joy Dolo]

But Dr. Lovelace has a hunch that women might actually make better astronauts than men if given the chance. On average, he figured women are smaller than men, so he thought they would consume less food and oxygen, which would be a big advantage on cramped space flights.

[Elsa]

So in 1960, Dr. Lovelace starts a top secret testing program at his research center in New Mexico. Only for women who are interested in becoming astronauts. Jerry is the first to sign up.

[Joy Dolo]

Top secret. So cool. It's Like James Bond, but in space. Jane Bond, double O lady pilot.

[Elsa]

The testing program for female astronauts is totally under the radar. It's not an official NASA program.

[Joy Dolo]

Yeah, it's funded with private donations, but the testing is the same as what the male astronauts went through, and it's.

[Elsa]

Designed to be really hard.

[Joy Dolo]

The doctors have Jerry swallow a rubber tube longer than a baseball bat so they can test her stomach acid.

[Elsa]

They put her on a spinning table to test her blood circulation.

[Joy Dolo]

And they shoot ice water into her ears to make her feel dizzy and unbalanced, a feeling that astronauts experience in space.

[Elsa]

Jerry passes every test. And not only that, she does better than almost all of the men who had been tested before her.

[Joy Dolo]

Dr. Loveless wonders, are all women this good, or is there just something really special about Jerry? So he recruits another 24 female pilots to go through the testing.

[Elsa]

The oldest, Jane Hart, is 41 years old, a skilled pilot. As a teenager, she had been the first woman in the state of Michigan to get her pilot's license. She also happens to be the wife of a US senator.

[Joy Dolo]

The youngest is Wally Funk. She's only 21, so she has to get special permission to take the tests.

[Elsa]

Like the others in the group, Wally started dreaming of becoming a pilot. When she was just a kid. She'd carve airplanes out of wood and hang them from the ceiling of her bedroom.

[Joy Dolo]

Wally's working as a flight instructor. When she hears about the astronaut testing, she writes to the program right away to ask how she can get involved. And later, she's shocked to be selected.

[Elsa]

Wally's so excited. Here she is talking about that moment many years later in 2017.

[Wally Funk]

I get a call, said, do you want to be an astronaut? I said, oh, my gosh, yes. And he said, be here on Monday to take these tests.

[Elsa]

Dr. Loveless starts putting Wally and the other new recruits through the same grueling tests that Jerry went through. The rubber tube, the ice water in the ears, all of it.

[Wally Funk]

I had needles stuck in every part of my body, tubes running up my bottom. So I went along with it. It didn't bother me.

[Joy Dolo]

And the recruits do really well. Another 12 female pilots pass their astronaut tests with flying colors, including Wally.

[Elsa]

While all of this is happening, the US and the Soviet Union are still battling it out, trying to be the first to get to outer space.

[Joy Dolo]

And in April 1961, it happens. The Soviet Union puts the first ever human into space. A pilot named Yuri Gagarin.

[Mark]

Extra, extra.

[Joy Dolo]

Read all about it. Soviet send man to space. Returns to Earth safe and sound.

[Elsa]

Um, Joy Why is there an old timey kid selling newspapers in your closet?

[Joy Dolo]

He must have wandered in here by accident at some point. I really have to organize this closet.

[Elsa]

I'll say. Anyway, a few months after the Soviets send the first man to space, the fellow lady astronaut trainees finish all of.

[Joy Dolo]

Their tests, and the women are getting ready to go through the second round of testing in Florida when the US government finds out what Dr. Lovelace is up to and pulls the plug on.

[Elsa]

The program, and everything comes to a screeching halt. Don't worry, Hermey. The story isn't over yet. How about we take a break and make some intergalactic marshmallow sandwiches over the campfire?

[Joy Dolo]

Marshmallow sandwiches? Oh, you mean s'.

[Elsa]

Mores.

[Joy Dolo]

I've always wanted to eat s' mores in space. While we wait for our marshmallows to get nice and toasty, let's play First Things First. That's the game where we try to guess the order things came in history. Today we're looking at famous firsts in women's history. They are first woman to reach the peak of Mount Everest, first female millionaire, and first woman to win a Nobel Peace Prize. Which do you think came first, which came second, and which came most recently in history? Elsa, which one is the oldest in your mind?

[Elsa]

Ooh, in my mind, I feel like the oldest would. Ooh. What do I think the oldest would be? I think the oldest would be the Nobel Peace Prize.

[Joy Dolo]

Nobel Peace Prize.

[Elsa]

Wait, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

[Joy Dolo]

We'll take that back. We'll take that back.

[Elsa]

I think the oldest would be a woman millionaire.

[Joy Dolo]

Oh, yeah. Why do you think that?

[Elsa]

I think because, I mean, obviously, money has been a thing going around for years and years and years for a long time. So that's. That seems like the oldest in my brain, at least.

[Joy Dolo]

That's a good. That's a good guess.

[Elsa]

And then I would say, hmm, so.

[Joy Dolo]

We got the first woman to reach the peak of Mount Everest, and then the first woman to win the Nobel Peace Prize.

[Elsa]

I would say the Nobel Peace Prize would be second oldest.

[Joy Dolo]

Okay, Nobel Peace Prize.

[Elsa]

And then I would say Mount Everest.

[Joy Dolo]

And then Everest.

[Elsa]

Yes.

[Joy Dolo]

Okay, so we have the order of millionaire, Nobel Peace Prize and Mount Everest. Why do you think Nobel Peace Prize second and Mount Everest third?

[Elsa]

I think Mount Everest was later because, well, I feel like a lot of women didn't really have that on their mind at the time.

[Joy Dolo]

Oh, yeah.

[Elsa]

And I feel like Nobel Peace Prize because it's such a general area. Like, I mean, It's a very like, important award. So I mean, obviously anyone would be honored to get that. And I feel like it's been going on for quite a bit of time.

[Joy Dolo]

I think so too.

[Elsa]

So I think I would put that one second and Mount Everest third.

[Joy Dolo]

Yeah. You know what I was thinking too? Mount Everest, like you need all these like equipments and stuff to climb it. Like you can't just like walk up it. So I'm thinking maybe the tools came maybe a little later for that.

[Loretta Hall]

Yeah.

[Joy Dolo]

Because it always seems like an extreme sport and like, you know, I don't know. That's my guess. So just to recap, you think the first female millionaire and then the first female to win Nobel Peace Prize and then the first female to climb Mount Everest.

[Elsa]

We'll get to the answers in just a bit.

[Joy Dolo]

And if you have ideas for first things first or topics you'd like to hear us cover on the show, please send them to us. Go to foreverago.org contact History is everywhere. What do you want to explore? Tell us again. That's Foreverago.org contact thanks so much to all our listeners for sending in suggestions.

[Elsa]

We'll be right back.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

There are lots of people right now focusing on hitting their protein goals. Maybe they want to help build and maintain muscle or recover after a workout. At the same time, life can get pretty busy. That's why so many people are looking for easy, protein packed options. And this one actually delivers ratio protein yogurt has 25 grams of protein per cup, making ratio the most protein per cup in the yogurt aisle. That's more protein than four whole eggs plus zero added sugar. You get a complete protein with all nine essential essential amino acids, zero grams of added sugar and real staying power. It's protein that can help your body build and repair tissues, making it an easy post workout snack or just a midday keep going moment. Not only is it packed with protein, but ratio protein has a smooth and creamy texture so there's no need to compromise great taste when hitting protein goals. It's a kind of thing that slips right into a chaotic day. No cooking, no no cleanup. Just open eat and you're on your way to hitting your protein goals without having to worry about baking yet another chicken breast. Ratio does the math so you don't have to head to ratiofood.com to find a retailer near you.

[Science Explainer]

Did you know that before modern refrigeration some people kept milk from spoiling with frogs? Today we keep many food products refrigerated to prevent bacteria from spoiling.

[Joy Dolo]

Them.

[Science Explainer]

Warmer temperatures allow bacteria to grow at a faster rate, which in milk can not only turn it sour and chunky, but can also make it dangerous to drink. But before refrigeration was available, people living in Russia had a different strategy. Dropping a frog in their bucket of milk. While it's not clear how this tradition started, and it might seem totally nuts, it might have actually worked. In 2012, scientists in Moscow reported that Russian brown frogs ooze bacteria fighting compounds called peptides from their skin.

[Joy Dolo]

Okay. All right, Elsa, let's reveal which of our first things first is actually the oldest. No way has anyone ever said that you're the smartest person alive.

[Elsa]

Really?

[Joy Dolo]

You're the smartest person alive. You got it?

[Elsa]

I got all of them.

[Joy Dolo]

You got them all. First woman to become a self made millionaire was Madam C.J. walker. She was the first to earn more than a million dollars. She was born Sarah breed love in 1867. She was an African American entrepreneur who founded a hair and skin care industry specifically for black women. Madam Walker saw that while the cosmetics industry was booming, there were almost no products specifically for black hair and skin. She developed formulas based on remedies she had used for her own dandruff and other skin issues. Madam Walker made sure that the business staff she assembled gave black women opportunities. She was also an activist and philanthropist throughout her life and often traveled to give lectures on political and social matters to large audiences. You know, that's so funny. I knew about Madam C.J.

[Molly]

Walker.

[Elsa]

Yeah. But it doesn't come to mind when you're thinking about this right now.

[Joy Dolo]

Right. And she was black too. Like, that's awesome. Second, we have first woman to win a Nobel Peace Prize. Baroness Bertha Sophie Felicita von Suttner was awarded the Nobel peace Prize in 1905 for her against war and violence. She wrote one of the most influential books of the 19th century, an anti war novel called lay down your arms. Arms as in weapons, not the limbs attached to your shoulders, which was published in 1889. She eventually became friends and pen pals with Alfred Nobel, the dynamite manufacturer and weapons dealer turned peace seeker, and they exchanged many letters over the years about war and peace. She is thought to have influenced Nobel's decision to give his fortune to fund an award for world peace, the Nobel Peace Prize. And then, last but not least, the first woman to reach the peak of Mount Everest that is the most recent in history. Junko Tabe was a Japanese mountaineer who was the first to set foot on the peak of Mount Everest in 1970. 5. She had wanted to be a mountain climber for years, but kept getting told that women should be raising children instead. Ah, that makes sense. Taabe went on to climb the highest mountain on every continent, which means that she was also the first woman to complete the Seven Summits Challenge. She said of her Everest climb that she wanted to be remembered as the 36th person to reach the peak, not just the first woman. In November 2019, a mountain range on Pluto was named after Taabe in recognition of her mountaineering accomplishments on Pluto. So she's in space, too.

[Elsa]

Oh, wow.

[Joy Dolo]

She's everywhere. So what do you think about that?

[Elsa]

I think that's really cool.

[Joy Dolo]

Is any of this information, like, new to you? Like the Nobel Peace Prize and any of that?

[Elsa]

The Nobel Peace Prize is totally new to me.

[Joy Dolo]

Yeah.

[Elsa]

I would have never. It was just an educated guess.

[Joy Dolo]

That was a very good guess. You did a very good job. Yeah. And then Taabe, that was interesting. Like, you know, that thing of, like, women should be raising children and, like, not going to climb mountains and stuff. That is a common rhetoric that sometimes you still hear today. But it's so cool how you could see different women doing all these different things, and it's not so far away. It's not so forever ago. One would say, do you see how I did that?

[Elsa]

I put the names. I do see how I did.

[Joy Dolo]

Yes.

[Molly]

Cool.

[Joy Dolo]

All right, moving right along. We're trapped in my closet black hole today, which is the perfect opportunity to talk about the amazing women who went through a secret astronaut testing program in the 1960s.

[Elsa]

All of the women were highly trained pilots with thousands of hours of flying experience.

[Joy Dolo]

And 13 of them passed the first round of testing. Afterwards, they're supposed to go to the US Naval base in Pensacola, Florida, for their next round of testing.

[Elsa]

But then someone contacts NASA and basically says, hey, did you know there are women training to be astronauts? Did you authorize this testing?

[Loretta Hall]

And NASA came back and said, what testing? We haven't authorized any. And then at that point, the Navy said, well, without authorization, we're not going to continue.

[Elsa]

That's our friend Loretta Hall. She's a writer who spent years researching and writing about the history of women in space.

[Joy Dolo]

Just like that, Loretta says, the testing is canceled. The program shuts down.

[Elsa]

It's a huge blow for the women who have spent months preparing.

[Loretta Hall]

So some of them really were quite shocked that they were not going to be allowed to become viable candidates for astronauts.

[Elsa]

But by now, word of the secret testing program has gotten out.

[Joy Dolo]

Life magazine publishes an entire article all About Jerry Cobb with the headline A Lady Proves She's Fit for It includes full page photos of her taking her astronaut tests.

[Elsa]

Women and girls from across the country start writing to Vice President Lyndon B. Johnson to ask about the program.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

Dear Mr. Johnson, I think the United States should send a woman in space.

[Joy Dolo]

Let the women who are willing have a chance to help in the progress of our country.

[Wally Funk]

The intelligence, patriotism, initiative, and creative ability of women is the most wasted resource in this country.

[Joy Dolo]

Mr. Vice President, unless we do something.

[Elsa]

Very soon, the Russians will be the ones to put the first woman in space.

[Joy Dolo]

But the Vice President is not convinced. Remember, this is the space race. His goal is to put an American on the moon as quickly as possible.

[Elsa]

And he believes training women to be astronauts will throw a wrench in the whole thing.

[Loretta Hall]

It was just going to, in his mind, open and enormous can of worms that was going to slow things down incredibly. And so he just. He wanted to nip it in the bud.

[Joy Dolo]

He decides it's time to put an end to this idea. So at the bottom of a letter written to a NASA official in 1962, the Vice President writes, let's stop this now in big letters.

[Elsa]

But the women in the training program aren't going to give up without a fight. That same year, Gerry and another one of the Flats, Jane Hart, go to Washington and speak to Congress. In front of a large crowd.

[Joy Dolo]

They argue that women can make important contributions to space exploration and ask Congress to restart the testing program for female astronauts.

[Loretta Hall]

They were genuinely trying to accomplish something for their group of women. They were not taken seriously.

[Elsa]

The committee decides the women aren't qualified to become astronauts, even though they have thousands of hours of flying experience and had passed the same tests as the men.

[Joy Dolo]

The following year, the Soviet Union sends the first woman into space. I know, Hermey. It's a really intense space race. Have a peanut. Hermey, you have to calm down so we can finish our story.

[Elsa]

Joy, look behind you.

[Joy Dolo]

Ooh, my pep band symbols from middle school. We have the gift of music.

[Elsa]

No, no, no. Behind the symbols, it's the anti gravitational transporter ray. We can get out of here.

[Joy Dolo]

You're right, Hermey. Let's finish our story and then we'll blast out of this black hole. Come sit by the fire with me and we'll have some more peanuts.

[Elsa]

So not long after the Flats were told women couldn't be astronauts, big changes started happening in the US Activists in.

[Joy Dolo]

The civil rights movement began pushing for racial equality and helped ensure that black people had the Same rights as white people, like their right to vote.

[Elsa]

And there was a movement that fought for equal rights for women.

[Joy Dolo]

This movement helped push politicians to pass new laws to keep employers from discriminating.

[Elsa]

Against women, like when those airlines wouldn't hire Jerry as a pilot because she was a woman.

[Joy Dolo]

These laws helped pave the way for women to eventually become astronauts, because discriminating against them was now illegal. And over the years, women have led spacewalks, become commanders, and lived on the International Space Station. Totally Hermie. These were all big accomplishments for women astronauts.

[Elsa]

To this day, though, no woman or person of color has ever set foot on the moon.

[Joy Dolo]

But NASA plans to change that. The Artemis space program hopes to send the first woman and person of color to the moon by 2025.

[Elsa]

And even though the 13 women who went through the secret testing program never became astronauts, Loretta says they were proud of the achievements of the women who came after them.

[Joy Dolo]

In 1995, when Eileen Collins became the first woman pilot of a US space shuttle, the surviving members of the Mercury 13 traveled to Florida to watch the liftoff together.

[Elsa]

Wally Funk, the youngest member of the Mercury 13, was there to celebrate.

[Loretta Hall]

And during that launch, as the launch vehicle was leaving the launch pad, Wally was standing there punching the air, saying, go, Eileen, go for all of us. It was not just a personal goal, but it was a communal bonding experience. It was an achievement for women, not just one individual.

[Joy Dolo]

And Wally also had a special achievement of her own. She went to space last year on a private spacecraft.

[Elsa]

She was 82 at the time, making her the oldest person to ever go to space.

[Loretta Hall]

She was just so delighted that her dream finally came true. I mean, she would have preferred to be the pilot of the spacecraft. She would have preferred to go into orbit for a couple of weeks. But by golly, she made it into space. And that's what she'd been striving for for so long. She was just totally thrilled.

[Joy Dolo]

The fellow lady astronaut trainees were an extraordinary group of women who spent years making a case for why women are just as qualified to become astronauts as men.

[Elsa]

They didn't become astronauts themselves, but by pushing for change, they helped blaze a trail for generations of women who came after them.

[Joy Dolo]

In the US it's now illegal to discriminate against women, people of color, and other groups.

[Elsa]

Yeah, they've become astronauts, commanders, and gone on spacewalks. And pretty soon, women and people of color will visit the moon, too.

[Joy Dolo]

Elsa, it's time for us to blast out of this closet. Hermey, you coming home with us?

[Elsa]

Of course, I want to leave. Joy, let's blow this popsicle stand. You've been able to talk this whole time?

[Joy Dolo]

This episode was written by Shayla Farzan. We had help from Manica Wilhelm, Tom Weber, Anna Goldfield, Sandon Totten, Molly Bloom, Nico Gonzalez, Whistler, Aron Waldeslassie, Rosie Dupont, Ruby Guthrie and Anna Wagle. Sound design by Rachel Breeze. Theme music by Mark Sanchez. Beth Perlman is our executive producer. We had engineering help from Derek Ramirez. The executives in charge of APM Studios are Chandra Kavadi, Joanne Griffith and Alex Shaffer. Special thanks to StoryCorps for sharing their interview with Wally Funk. And many thanks to Brant Miller and Nate Schneider.

[Elsa]

Have a topic that you're itching to know the history of? Send it to [e-mail] contact.

[Joy Dolo]

Yeah, we love hearing your ideas. We'll be back next week with our last episode of the season, all about the history of of braids. See you next time and thanks for listening.