Bozoma Saint John Talks Career, Friendships With Dorit Kemsley and Sutton Stracke, and More

Summary

Podcast Summary: Bravo's Hot Mic – "Bozoma Saint John Talks Career, Friendships With Dorit Kemsley and Sutton Stracke, and More"

Episode Information:

• Title: Bravo's Hot Mic
• Host: Bravo TV
• Episode: Bozoma Saint John Talks Career, Friendships With Dorit Kemsley and Sutton Stracke, and More
• Release Date: March 18, 2025

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Introduction

In this compelling episode of Bravo's Hot Mic, host Alex sits down with the multifaceted Bozoma Saint John, a business powerhouse and a prominent figure on The Real Housewives of Beverly Hills. The conversation delves deep into Bozoma's illustrious career, personal struggles, genuine friendships with fellow housewives Dorit Kemsley and Sutton Stracke, and her unwavering commitment to authenticity. This detailed summary captures the essence of their discussion, highlighting key insights and memorable moments.

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Acknowledging Personal Loss

The episode begins with Alex expressing heartfelt sympathy for Bozoma's recent tragic loss—the destruction of her home in a fire.

• Bozoma Saint John [00:42]: "I feel like, you know, there's always a blessing in the trauma or in the turmoil. And for me, this show has actually been a blessing right now."

Bozoma shares how Bravo's Hot Mic provided her with invaluable video documentation of her home, aiding in her insurance claims and serving as a poignant reminder of her past.

• Bozoma Saint John [01:45]: "That is very helpful. I was like, listen, step by step, room by room, you can see everything from my crystal to the chandeliers to the artwork."

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Career Journey and Philosophy

Bozoma offers an insightful overview of her career trajectory, emphasizing her beginnings with Spike Lee and her ascent through various high-profile roles.

• Bozoma Saint John [05:41]: "I was his assistant at his advertising agency... I really didn't know what I wanted to do... my destiny just fell in my lap."

She highlights Spike Lee's relentless dedication and how it instilled in her a philosophy of continual improvement and never resting on her laurels.

• Bozoma Saint John [08:19]: "You never rest on your laurels. You never take these like, wins and sit back and say... he was constantly working and constantly being sharp."

Bozoma underscores the importance of taking ownership of one's achievements, rejecting the notion of shared credit in her professional endeavors.

• Bozoma Saint John [19:56]: "If you want credit, then take it yourself."

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Transition to Real Housewives

The conversation shifts to Bozoma's decision to join The Real Housewives of Beverly Hills. Alex probes into her motivations and the strategic thinking behind this significant career move.

• Bozoma Saint John [10:31]: "There is a majority of my brain which says, why am I going to do this? What am I going to get from it? What am I going to contribute?"

Bozoma reveals her commitment to contributing meaningfully to the show, ensuring that her presence leaves a lasting impact.

• Bozoma Saint John [12:03]: "There is absolutely no job, no space I've ever been in where you didn't know I was there."

She elaborates on her intentional approach, aiming to foster genuine relationships and bring her unique perspective to the dynamic ensemble.

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Authenticity and Being a Role Model

A significant portion of the interview delves into Bozoma's dedication to authenticity and her role as a trailblazer for black women in high-profile positions.

• Bozoma Saint John [16:39]: "I can't be a great role model for her if I wasn't doing that."

Bozoma discusses the pressures of representing as a black woman in corporate America and her unwavering stance on being unapologetically herself.

• Bozoma Saint John [18:17]: "People always want to take credit for your wins and they will never take the credit for your losses ever."

She emphasizes the importance of self-validation over seeking approval from others, advocating for women to take ownership of their narratives.

• Bozoma Saint John [19:56]: "If you want to be seen, then show up."

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Relationships with Fellow Housewives Dorit Kemsley and Sutton Stracke

Bozoma candidly discusses her friendships and conflicts with fellow cast members Dorit Kemsley and Sutton Stracke, providing behind-the-scenes insights into the show's interpersonal dynamics.

• Bozoma Saint John [32:20]: "I still don't understand why Sutton gets so upset about things, and I really have no idea. I would love to know that better."

She expresses surprise at the evolving nature of her relationship with Sutton, highlighting unexpected tensions and the challenges of maintaining friendships amidst the pressures of reality TV.

• Bozoma Saint John [36:00]: "Sutton is very thin, but my point is, there is no way that she should be picking on anybody, buying anybody's wallet."

Bozoma reflects on the authenticity of relationships, emphasizing the importance of genuine connections over superficial alliances.

• Bozoma Saint John [38:25]: "If for whatever reason, Dorit is putting on a show and I'm like, you know, enjoying this experience with her, and then I see something different in a little while... So let's pretend that she's been putting on a show, then I'll call it when I see it."

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Navigating Challenges and Personal Growth

Bozoma delves into the emotional and psychological challenges she has faced, including the loss of her husband and the subsequent impact on her life's direction.

• Bozoma Saint John [27:52]: "I became unapologetic about the life that I lived. Meaning that like, look, there is, there is nobody whose life is more important than mine."

She shares the profound decision to leave Netflix to focus on writing her memoir, emphasizing the importance of personal healing and authenticity over professional obligations.

• Bozoma Saint John [21:11]: "When I decided to leave, it was the first time I'd truly bet on myself wholly and completely."

Bozoma highlights the significance of living a purposeful and intentional life, driven by personal values and experiences.

• Bozoma Saint John [30:23]: "If you want to live a purposeful, urgent life, but that you should also live life on your terms without asking people what they think."

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Conclusion: Embracing Authenticity and Purpose

Throughout the episode, Bozoma Saint John exemplifies resilience, authenticity, and strategic thinking. Her journey from corporate titan to reality TV star underscores her commitment to living life on her own terms, fostering genuine relationships, and serving as a role model for future generations. The conversation offers listeners a profound understanding of Bozoma's multifaceted persona, her unwavering dedication to authenticity, and her insightful perspectives on career and personal growth.

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Notable Quotes:

• Bozoma Saint John [12:03]: "There is absolutely no job, no space I've ever been in where you didn't know I was there."
• Bozoma Saint John [19:56]: "If you want to be seen, then show up."
• Bozoma Saint John [27:52]: "I became unapologetic about the life that I lived."
• Bozoma Saint John [21:11]: "When I decided to leave, it was the first time I'd truly bet on myself wholly and completely."

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Final Thoughts

Bozoma Saint John's interview on Bravo's Hot Mic offers an enlightening glimpse into the life of a woman who seamlessly blends corporate success with reality TV glamour. Her unwavering commitment to authenticity, personal growth, and meaningful relationships makes her a standout figure both on and off the screen. This episode serves as an inspiring testament to the power of self-belief and the importance of living life with purpose and intention.

Transcript

[Alex]

So this is Bravo's hot mic.

[Bozema St. John]

Yes.

[Alex]

And I'm here with Beverly Hills Sensation, bosom of St. John.

[Bozema St. John]

Sensation.

[Alex]

You are a sensation.

[Bozema St. John]

I like that.

[Alex]

Yeah.

[Bozema St. John]

Yes. Thank you.

[Alex]

You've made us look good for adding you to the show.

[Bozema St. John]

Look, people keep saying whoever casts me should, like, you know, get bonus points and whoever is helping with production should get bonus points. So I feel like, you know, take all the credit.

[Alex]

Well, I will.

[Bozema St. John]

Why not?

[Alex]

Yeah. And none of the blame. That's how it works, right?

[Bozema St. John]

Exactly. Yes.

[Alex]

I mean, that's a corporate America. You know it better than anyone.

[Bozema St. John]

Exactly. Just shift blame somewhere else. Never let the shit hand, like, land on you.

[Alex]

No, no, that's the job. Oh, my God.

[Bozema St. John]

Yeah. Survival.

[Alex]

Well, I want to start by acknowledging your recent loss. I'm so sorry that you lost your home in the.

[Bozema St. John]

Appreciate it.

[Alex]

The fire. And I know how much that home meant to you because you had really earned it.

[Bozema St. John]

Yes, yes. Let me tell you one of. One of the benefits of being on this show for many reasons, but this past weekend, I got a really big gift, which was the B roll from my house put together and sent to me. It's like 90 seconds of just my house being at its absolute best. And it was so emotional for me. I mean, literally, it was like the first three seconds, I was in full tears. But it's like what a gift that is. You know, without this show, I wouldn't have that footage. I just wouldn't. And so for me, it's like, you know, there's always a blessing in the trauma or in the turmoil. And for me, this show has actually been a blessing right now.

[Alex]

Well, I'm glad that you had that video diary and also were helpful for insurance claims, too.

[Bozema St. John]

Yes, that's right. Because let me tell you, that is very helpful. I was like, listen, step by step, room by room, you can see everything from my crystal to the chandeliers to the artwork.

[Alex]

No, no joke.

[Bozema St. John]

Yeah. Everything is in there.

[Alex]

It's an issue. Cause my parents lost their home. And so we've been searching for photos that lay out what was in each of the rooms.

[Bozema St. John]

Yeah. Oh, such a hard thing. I'm telling you. You never think of that stuff. You know? Who thinks of that?

[Alex]

No.

[Bozema St. John]

And he's like, okay, yes, we all take pictures in our homes and things. Maybe it's a holiday or, you know, friends came over or something, but, like, you know, to have the documentation of every single thing. Yeah, that's the hardest part about losing a house or a home in this way is that everything Goes to Ash. You know, it's like, I had a girlfriend who was like, oh, I'm gonna come and, you know, help you, like, look through the rubble for things. I was like, girl, there's nothing, Nothing.

[Alex]

Like, there's nothing, nothing. All gone.

[Bozema St. John]

It is just Ash. Nothing is left.

[Alex]

And you had worked so hard. Part of what Wanna cover, obviously, is you built your career from the ground up. And so being able to buy a beachfront home in Malibu also was an accomplishment and a symbol of your success and your hard.

[Bozema St. John]

And that's the thing, is that, like, you know, I know that there's lots of talk right now about whether or not, you know, people in Malibu or if you're rich, you have some money that, you know, people should feel sorry for you, that you lost your home or, oh, it's my second home, therefore, it's okay. And I'm just like, are you. What are you talking about? Like, what are you talking about? First of all, do you think that, like, this came to me magically? Right. Yeah. I just sat there and was like, ooh, look, there you go. Have a house. You know, it's like, no, I worked very hard for that house. I went through a lot of shit to have that house. And so the loss of it is important to me. And it hurts.

[Alex]

Yeah, yeah. No, it's meaningful. It's something to get through. Yeah. Someone told my parents and psychologists told my parents that it's akin to losing a child. And I think that's a little dramatic. Cause I think anyone with children would say, no, it's not. But. But there's a real grief.

[Bozema St. John]

Yes, there is a real grief. I. I would more liking it to, like, you know, maybe a favorite discant. Uncle.

[Alex]

Yeah.

[Bozema St. John]

Or aunt. So it does. It does feel familial, you know, because so much of it is about me. It feels like it's. You know, it feels like a family tie, you know, and certainly something that will mark me forever.

[Alex]

Yeah.

[Bozema St. John]

You know, this is not the type of thing where it's just like, okay, this happened, and now I'm okay. It's like 10, 15 years from now, I will still say, when my house burned down.

[Alex]

It's part of your story.

[Bozema St. John]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Alex]

But you've also overcome a lot through the years. Yeah. And, you know, so you've earned everything the hard way. And I want to talk a little bit about that. You've had a storied business career, and I think people are fascinated by the trajectory that took you from that career to Real Housewife, which is Part of what we were excited about. I mean, I know when we met the first time, it was like, you know, my first question to you was.

[Bozema St. John]

Yeah, like why are you doing this?

[Alex]

Do you really want to do this? Like, yeah.

[Bozema St. John]

By the way, I loved it because I was like, man, that is honesty right there. You know, you weren't like trying to be like, oh hey, come do this. Like this is going to be the best thing ever. Like you could have said that. But you realize why the hell are you doing this? And I was just like, ah, now this is somebody that could trust. You know, you're going to come to me with the honest question. And I love that.

[Alex]

Well, I felt like, you know, Jay Leno interviewing Hugh Grant, like back in the day. What the hell are you thinking? Well, because I always say like it isn't our job to talk anyone into doing the show. And you know, you will, you'll make the decision that's right for you anyway. So I also don't give myself that much credit to think that I can convince you to do something.

[Bozema St. John]

Right.

[Alex]

But I wanted to make sure that you really wanted to do it, that you knew what you were getting into in great ways too. I mean, I believe in the show, but. But it's a lot and it's a market departure for you. Yes, but let's. So let's talk about your career. So tell me your, your first job in entertainment and marketing was with Spike Lee?

[Bozema St. John]

Yeah, with Spike Lee. I was his assistant at his advertising agency, Spike DDB, 437 Madison Avenue. And I was, you know, fresh out of college. I really didn't know what I wanted to do. You know, I was really taking a break cause I had taken my MCAT to go to medical school, which is what I was set to do. That was the plan. And I went to New York for a year just to take some time off and sow my royal oats and really knew that I didn't want to go to medical school, but I just felt like the obligation to do it. But in doing the temp jobs and like, you know, finding like my own footing, you know, I feel like I'm one of those people that like, look, my destiny just fell in my lap, you know, because I was open and just, you know, allowing for the universe to do what it does. And so when I got the call from my temp agency that said, hey, you know, Spike Lee needs a fill in at the front desk cause he fired his assistant, I was like, yep, let me go and do that. You Know, and so I showed up and I didn't have any plans of being there more than like two or three days. I mean, that's what temp jobs are. Yeah, you're there for a couple days and you move on to the next thing. And the funny thing is that I also think I really only got that job because I was the only black person at the temp agency. I think they would not have sent anybody else but me.

[Alex]

That's so funny.

[Bozema St. John]

So I was just like, okay, this is perfect, you know, and I'll take it. Yeah, for sure. But the thing about working for somebody like Spike is that he is more dedicated, more serious, more intentional than I think people give him credit for.

[Alex]

Yeah.

[Bozema St. John]

You know, you kind of like take the talent. It's like, oh, he's a brilliant filmmaker, he's a great writer, like, you know, one of the best in the canon of filmmakers. But it's like you don't understand what it actually takes to do what he does or to be as creative as he is. And what I learned from the agency and my time there was that, you know, while he was in between films, he was making these commercials, basically continuing to sharpen his craft, even his off time. Like that was the thing. And additionally, it was like, look. And he is multi talented in that he was also reading at his kid's kindergarten class. He was also teaching a class at nyu. You know, he was, he was just doing everything. And I, I would always be baffled by the fact that somebody so successful, you know, who really didn't need to do more, was constantly working and constantly being sharp. And it was probably, I think, the biggest lesson early on for me, which was just like, you never rest on your laurels. You never take these like, wins and sit back and say, ah, you know what, I did it, I'm fine. You know, he was, he was gonna make it into the hall of fame at some point anyway.

[Alex]

Already. Yeah, you know what I mean?

[Bozema St. John]

Already, like, he didn't need to do more, but the man was constantly doing better. And believe me, there wasn't a 30 second commercial that he took lightly and said, ah, you know what, this is gonna be on TV for three months and let me just do it and get outta here. Nah, he was like, with the detail, he wanted to make sure things were right. He was choosing music, like the detail of it all was what was so impressive to me.

[Alex]

Don't you find that though, with most people that are that superlatively successful? Because I think there's a tendency to dismiss the Success. And it looks easy after the fact.

[Bozema St. John]

Yes.

[Alex]

But I find that it's those qualities that lead to the success in the first place.

[Bozema St. John]

But people don't know that. No, I don't think most people appreciate that. Like, I think a lot of people look at my career, right. And you name off, rattle off all the companies, all these big jobs, and they're just like, oh, my gosh, wow, that's so amazing. And, yeah, it sounds impressive, but you don't realize the work that it takes, not just to get into the job, to keep the job, to be smart in the job, to get sharper at the job so you can get the next thing. And that people who work for me now in this moment in time will tell you that, like, I am always on. I'm always on. There isn't a moment where I'm just like, you know what? I think I'm just gonna sit back and eat some bonbons today. Like, I'm not that person. And I believe that that's actually what makes me successful.

[Alex]

Well, and even in the Real Housewives context, I know this sounds, you know, crazy. And as much as the show is just about the lives and relationships of the people that are involved in it, it is still a commitment. And I found that when we bring on board people who have had other big commitments and have been successful, they take it more seriously.

[Bozema St. John]

Yes, that's right. That's right. Oh, I for sure took it seriously. I mean, so when you ask that question of, like, why do you want to do this? Or, like, you sure this is what you want to do? I was like, oh, I've already thought about it. You know, this is not accidental to me. This is not me just being like, I guess so, man, I have nothing better to do. Let me just sign up and do this.

[Alex]

Let's try it. Right?

[Bozema St. John]

Yeah. No, it's like, there is a part of me that's like, oh, well, let's try it. Let's see what happens, Right? But there is for sure a majority of my brain which says, why am I going to do this? What am I going to get from it? What am I going to contribute? And then, like, is it worth my time?

[Alex]

It's so funny that you say that, because one of the reasons I asked that question for two reasons. One was just to test how serious you were about it, obviously. And then the other reason was we had a fear that you would do it for one season and then potentially lose interest. And you said so on your own, independent of even bringing that up. You're like, I don't want to do it just for one season.

[Bozema St. John]

No, I don't want to do anything just for one season. You know, I feel like my life and my experiences are building blocks on each other. And as long as I feel like this is a mutually beneficial relationship, oh, then we're good.

[Alex]

Keep doing it, right?

[Bozema St. John]

Yeah, why not? You know? And again, it's like, look, I'm not flighty. And I think also because of the movements of my career, sometimes people think that, like, oh, well, you know, she's going to do what she does, get her thing, and then she's going to be out. And I'm like, no, that's actually not it. If you would actually sit with me and talk to me about the decisions I make, you'll see that everything was very logical and very strategic. And so for me, this experience is that too. That, like, no, I don't want to come in and be like, one and done or feel like, oh, my gosh, like, I didn't really get a great experience. Well, why would that be? You know, especially if you can go in having a good sense of who you are, what you want to have out of the relationships with these women, the relationships I want with production and everything else, it's like, look, I'm going to be intentional. I want to get to know people's names, I want to know their relationships, I want to know their histories so that as I navigate the space, I'm also contributing what I can bring to the space.

[Alex]

Yeah. And I mean, if you're going to invest in it, then you want that to pay off.

[Bozema St. John]

Yeah, exactly. And again, it's like, why am I there if not to contribute? You know, it's like, look, I have said this many a time, which is that, like, there is absolutely no job, no space I've ever been in where you didn't know I was there. I promise you, like, you will feel my presence, my footprints, my fingerprints once I'm in a space. And that's what I want for this, too. It's like, I also always liken it to, you know, biology or physics. Right. It's like, I love the idea of matter, which is that, you know, matter is made up of molecules, Right. And once you take one molecule out of the matter, the matter changes. You add a molecule into the matter, the matter changes. And so I am the molecule that is changing the matter of the Real Housewives of Beverly Hills. And I expect that. So I walk into the room knowing that my presence is going to. Is going to change this matter. And so what is it like when I'm not there and there should be.

[Alex]

A difference and there has been and amen.

[Bozema St. John]

Hallelujah.

[Alex]

Well, and I think a lot of people head into it just wanting to survive or else they'll ask production, what is it that you want out of me?

[Bozema St. John]

Right?

[Alex]

It's like we just, we want you to go in and to be yourself and to see where that takes you.

[Bozema St. John]

Yeah, well, that's also what I love about this experience is the fact that like, you know, the biggest compliment for me has been my, you know, my friends, my girlfriends who've known me for 30 years, 40 years, who were like, oh, that's the same woman on that screen that we know at home, you know, and I don't, I don't know that I would actually want to be anything else. I just don't know how to do it also, you know, and I think that's also part of what has carried on from my corporate career is that, you know, I never put on, you know, any pretenses in those spaces. And believe me, that is hard to do. It's like when I came onto the Apple keynote stage, first black person to present at Apple. Look, Steve Jobs built that stage, okay? And he came on there with his jeans and his black turtleneck and the other guys showed up in their khakis and blue button down, you know, shirts. And I showed up in my tight pink dress, my afro, curly afro, my Louboutins with a little puff on the back, okay? And I sashayed my way onto that stage because I had to show up as myself. Even though when I tell y'all, look, every single pressure that was on me that day to not just deliver tech, new tech to a world that had not heard from somebody like me before, that was going to change what happened in the stock market for a company the size of Apple. And that all of the pressure, all of the information I had at my disposal that told me what words to use that would be safe, how to look and appear, how to make my tone more acceptable, and I decided against all of that stuff. That is not something that you just wake up casually and do. But I knew that if I didn't do it, if I showed up and tried to be somebody else, I would fail miserably. So I'd rather fail as myself than fail at somebody else.

[Alex]

What gives you the gumption to do that? So what is it within you and who is your tribal council that helps you?

[Bozema St. John]

That's actually the tribal council question. Is a harder question because I also am a firm believer that you have to keep your own counsel. I think it's way too easy to have other people dissuade you from what is actually the right thing. I spend a lot of time also doing the hard work of being able to listen to my own intuition. And that also is not an easy thing. So I don't say that lightly where I'm just like, hey, look, when you have a decision to make, you should not make a pro and con list. You should not go and ask your girlfriend or your boyfriend or your mom what she thinks of this idea. It's like, you should really be paying attention to yourself. And, like, if you don't have the answer, then that means that you're not listening hard enough. You need to get quieter and hear what's actually going on. And so when I have any hard decision to make or I'm thinking about, okay, what's the next thing that I wanna do? Or I have to get up on this Apple Keynote stage, do I wanna wear the jeans and the black turtleneck? Do I wanna use the words that these people are using and then trip over them because they don't sound right? Like, no, I'm listening to myself. And the thing that I think has always driven me is that I don't want to walk around this planet being a shell of a person. You know, it's like, look, either you're gonna love me or hate me, but it's still gonna be me.

[Alex]

Yeah.

[Bozema St. John]

You know, I'm not going to be liked or disliked for trying to be somebody else. I don't know how life would work that way.

[Alex]

Do you feel pressure to be something of a role model to black women who do not have these opportunities? By and large?

[Bozema St. John]

Look, I feel pressure all the time because that is the truth of the matter, you know, Especially when you start to rise and then there's a spotlight. I can't tell you the number of times I rose in the corporate ranks. People see me publicly, I do an interview or, hell, even just social media. People like, oh, do you think that's appropriate for you to do as a cmo? Like, should probably cover those breasts. We have never seen a CMO with boobs like that before. And I'm like, well, you're going to see them today, you know, because the truth of the matter is that, like, if I don't show up as myself, then how can the next person do it? And just because I haven't seen it doesn't mean I shouldn't do it, you know, But I think there are just some people who are born to be the disruptors, you know, the ones who are meant to go out and say, ah, not today. I will not be that way today. You know, I'm gonna do this today. And then other people can follow that path. I think also because, look, I'm a mom to a 15 year old girl, you know, who has to come out into the world and be herself. And so I don't know that I could be a great role model for her if I wasn't doing that. How would that appear? She knows me at home. And then I go out into the world, I'm a separate. I have a different person. Like, I don't want her entering the planet that way. And so for me, it's like it's always been about one making sure that I'm living up to my own expectations of myself and then also being responsible to her.

[Alex]

You were under a lot of pressure though. Not just because of what you represented, but also those are really high profile jobs and you're kind of put in a position where if you succeed, you may or may not get the credit.

[Bozema St. John]

Oh, Alex, let's not talk about this. Look, look, okay, I've said this other places as well. Look, people always want to take credit for your wins and they will never take the credit for your losses ever. So you gotta always remember that. So that's why when people are like, oh, well, you know, you like to talk about yourself. You like to pump yourself up. Hell yeah, I'm taking the credit for everything I've done. Are you crazy? Like, also, you're not gonna get it. So every time, you know, you're working on a project and, you know, folks are like, oh, we did this, we accomplished this. No, the hell we didn't. I did it. Like, who are you talking to? You know, and the thing is that I won't take credit for stuff I don't do. For sure I won't. Okay? You could trust that. But if I did it, there is no we. No, no we, we around here. It's me, me. That's what I did. And so for me, I'm like, hey, look, I think also this is not just a black woman thing. It's a woman thing that we're always told to be humble. You're supposed to, like, put your head down, you know, stay quiet, somebody will notice you and give you a promotion. Absolutely will not. Okay? Nobody was talking about me until I started talking about me. And after that, then people want to be on your side, everybody. Oh, did you know that Bose did X, Y and Z thing? Yeah, because I told you that's how you know that. And I feel like that's the best way to be. It's like, if you want credit, then take it yourself.

[Alex]

Well, the alternative to your point is just to hope that people notice you and reward you and validate you.

[Bozema St. John]

Have you ever heard that hope is a terrible strategy? Yeah, like, no, no, no, no, we're not doing that. I'm not gonna hope somebody. I think the Democrats are lear clock that it's true. It's like, you can't just hope that somebody sees you. If you want to be seen, then show up. If you want to be seen, wear those stilettos. If you want to be seen, put your boobs outside, let them see, and be like, who's that? Okay, maybe that's not always a good strategy, but my point is that if you want to be seen, then you have to show up.

[Alex]

Like you were saying, as long as you're doing the job, then it is an issue. And if you're not performing.

[Bozema St. John]

Oh, well, if you're not performing, you're gonna be fine.

[Alex]

Different story, right?

[Bozema St. John]

You know what I mean? If you're not performing, somebody's gonna get rid of you. Like, if you're not performing, hiding isn't going to save you. Yeah, you mean. But if you are performing and you're not taking the credit, you're not showing up, believe me, you'll be overlooked. Or homeboy down in other. In the other office down the hallway, he's gonna take credit.

[Alex]

Well, like you said, you know, success becomes a we.

[Bozema St. John]

Yes, absolutely. And then the failure, you're just out here hanging out to drive by yourself.

[Alex]

So is it because of this and all of the years of really high level jobs that you decided at a certain point, I'm done and seen?

[Bozema St. John]

Exactly. Well, you know, it's funny. It was a really, really tough decision for me to leave Netflix because it was a very high profile job. We were at the height of all the influx of subscribers coming in because of the pandemic and people sitting at home. I did a commercial during my time which was just like, oh, people felt like they'd come to the end of Netflix. You know, they were like, I've watched everything. And I'm like, no, the hell you haven't. Stay seated and tune in. You know? And for me it was like, look, I knew that I wanted to publish my memoir. I was already in the process of writing it. It was a very, very difficult book to write because I was writing about my grief. I was writing about love, I was writing about loss. And I was disciplined enough that every Saturday from 10 to 12, I would sit down. Regardless of what was happening in life, it didn't matter if it was a holiday, if it was my birthday, if, like, I had a. It didn't matter. I was writing. And writing my memoir meant that I had to pull so many memories out that were painful, that were difficult, and then dust myself off and go back to the office on Monday. It was a really, really hard thing to do, and I knew that I couldn't sustain that. And so then the decision was, well, what do I do? Do I pause writing the book or do I quit my job and finish it? I knew I couldn't do both. And so it was a very honest conversation with me and my boss where, you know, we sat down, and he knew it, and I knew it. You know, that's the other thing about being honest with yourself, is that you can really see it and then be honest with other people. And I think that's why our relationship remained, because it wasn't a lie. It wasn't like, hey, look, you're. You're, you know, messing up, and you're not gonna do. You know, you're not doing it right. I'm not. Oh, no, I'm giving it my best. No, it was just like, we both knew what the deal was. And so when I decided to leave, it was the first time I'd truly bet on myself wholly and completely. You know, in other jobs, of course, I bet on myself saying, okay, I'm gonna leave this job and go here. But when I left to write my memoir, that was truly. I mean, I cut all the ties off of corporate, and I thought I was going on to sabbatical. I was like, okay, I'll be back in two years. You know what I mean? And take the time off, gonna publish my book, take time to heal, and then I'm back in my corporate seat. And after the two years, again, I had to have a very honest conversation with myself and say, like, girl, do you really want to go back into those spaces? And believe me, I'm not going to lie to you and pretend I didn't have meetings. I took the meetings. Yeah, I took all the meetings. I went to all the big tables, you know, heard all the pitches, looked at a lot of money. There was a lot of money. Outside, there was a lot of money, and knew that I didn't believe I could Survive continuing in those spaces that I had given what I could give. And that if I wanted to live for myself, I would have to depart the entirety of that arena. And the day I made that decision, oh, Lord, let me tell you, I cried. I cried, I cried. I cried because I just knew that that era was over in my life and it had been a great run. And also my ego was tied to it. You know, it's like, I know people lie all the time and say that, ah, the job is not the ego. Yeah, it is. Who are you without the title?

[Alex]

It's always a question. And because it has to mean that much to you when you're in it.

[Bozema St. John]

Yeah.

[Alex]

Because it's that difficult. And you know, what you've achieved, what you've survived, what you've accomplished. Yeah.

[Bozema St. John]

But then also, it's like, if you didn't have that, who are you?

[Alex]

Yeah.

[Bozema St. John]

And that's a very, very difficult answer to give to yourself.

[Alex]

It is.

[Bozema St. John]

You know, it's like if you didn't have the end of your title after your name, it's like, do people care about you?

[Alex]

Yeah.

[Bozema St. John]

Do you still get invited to the parties? Do they call you to check on you and see how you're doing? Does anybody care that you exist? Would they cry if you weren't around anymore? You know, those are the questions that I had to ask of myself and then realize the honesty and the answers that I know. Sometimes people don't give a fuck, and.

[Alex]

You have to be okay with that. That's the other part of it is, because the truth is, a lot of invitations will disappear. There's a lot of people that don't care if you're being honest with yourself.

[Bozema St. John]

They don't care.

[Alex]

They don't care.

[Bozema St. John]

They don't care. And you have to be okay with them not caring.

[Alex]

Yes.

[Bozema St. John]

You have to find the value in yourself even after the title is gone.

[Alex]

And when you live in a corporate existence, then the validation actually oftentimes does come from other people.

[Bozema St. John]

Yes, of course it does. I mean, you know how many doors open because I was a CMO of Netflix.

[Alex]

Yeah.

[Bozema St. John]

People like, oh, yeah, have her come to the cocktail party. And then I'd get there, and then they want to pitch me ideas, of course. And I'm like, oh, my God, first of all, that's a terrible idea. You should probably go home and do something else. You know what I mean? But at the same time, it's like, okay, without the title of Bozema St. John, CMO of fill in the Blank, who was I. You know, and then the funnier part is that after it was announced that I was joining the Real Housewives of Beverly Hills, then it was a different question. Why in the hell would you want to be a housewife? Like, how did you go from like, X, Y and Z big titles to this? And the funny thing is I was actually very insulted by that. You know, I was just like, first of all, don't try to diminish me. Like, you know, the caliber of what I'm able to deliver. So why is it that I make my next move and you want to question what I'm doing?

[Alex]

Well, I mean, we've talked about it, but I said I thought that it was the ultimate power move to me, as long as you really wanted to do it. And you knew that it. What it was, then I thought it was great because I thought it meant that, you know, you again were asserting what you wanted to do.

[Bozema St. John]

Yes, Alex, I can do anything I want in this life. That is the statement I was making. I was like, I don't care what it is. I can do anything I want. I don't know a lot of people who have that freedom to get up and say, you know what? You know what I'm do today? I'm going to do this thing. And I actually don't care what anybody has to say about it. Like, try that on for size. See if you can do it. And if you can't do it, then stop talking shit about me.

[Alex]

Yeah, well, that's the other thing that you realize too, is that the reason that a lot of other people will degrade that kind of move is because they don't have the balls to do it.

[Bozema St. John]

Oh, that. Yes, they don't have the balls to do it. And the thing that is actually really meaningful and powerful about this life that we're living is do you have the gumption, the strength to actually do exactly what it is that you want to do? You know, it's like I live by this mantra about living life urgently, right? And the urgency for me is not about speed. It's not like, oh, gotta do this right now, and then finish, blah, blah, blah, blah. No, it's more about intention.

[Alex]

It's purpose.

[Bozema St. John]

So I am urgent about the things that I want to do in my life right now, you know, And I did learn that through grief. I learned that the hard way, you know, of like, losing my husband, who died four days before his 44th birthday, you know, and there was six months between his diagnosis and his death. And in those days, it Wasn't even just like, oh God, we gotta like check off the bucket list. There was some of that, but a lot of it for me was looking at his life and realizing that there were so many things he wanted to do that he simply didn't do. Not because he didn't have the time to do it, but because he always felt that like he didn't have to do it right then, that everybody else's desires, wants, needs came before his. And I just refused to live life like that. And so from that moment forward, and I would say to some degree that it was a practice I was already doing before then, but for sure his death was a marker in my life, which made me unapologetic. I realize that that's a trendy word too, but I became unapologetic about the life that I lived. Meaning that like, look, there is, there is nobody whose life is more important than mine. And I recognize that that can also be a little spiky and people could be like, oh my God, she's so full of herself. But who else am I supposed to full of?

[Alex]

Well, no, and, and I'm. And also you can better take care of other people and of the world at large if you're taking care of yourself.

[Bozema St. John]

That's right, that's right. Because look, there are many people who are walking around this planet who are consequences of somebody else's unfulfilled life. Lot of people walking around their mom said, oh, you know what, if it wasn't for you, I would have been X, Y and Z thing. Or who said like, oh, you should be grateful that you can do this because I couldn't do it. I don't want to be that to anybody, especially not to my kid and also not to my friends, not to society as a whole. So I'm going to live this life urgently and with purpose because I'm going to do exactly the things I want to do. You know, I want to be the 80 year old version of myself and look back and be like, girl, you did that. You know that, that life that you live, woo, nobody could do it better, you know, and the other funny thing is that even when you read off all of my jobs and accomplishments, as I tell you, if I told you step by step the decisions I was making and told you that nobody supported me in those moments, you'd be shocked. Cause you'd be like, well how could anybody be like, oh my God, no, she shouldn't go to Apple. Oh my friend, there were a lot of people because at the Time, the moment didn't seem right.

[Alex]

It only makes sense after the fact.

[Bozema St. John]

Oh, yes, but that's the thing, right? Like, history and success has so many authors, as they say. It's like. But in the moment, many people don't see the road that you see. And so, again, this is why I'm so adamant that not only should you live a purposeful, urgent life, but that you should also live life on your terms without asking people what they think. Because otherwise, you are going to do the things that other people expect you to do, and then you're going to be unfulfilled. Could you be sitting there doing stuff that somebody else told you to do, and you were totally uninterested in doing that?

[Alex]

Even if it, quote, unquote, works out.

[Bozema St. John]

But who's to even say that it worked out, right? You know what I mean? Like, who wants to live the humdrum life? You just want to live a life that's lukewarm. You just want to live a life that's like, okay, I guess this is fine. Or do you want to live a life that actually gives you excitement, that makes you feel like, I want to wake up today, this Monday, and, like, live.

[Alex]

I loved it. So when we first met you and you were asked, by casting, what you do, what your occupation was. Right. And usually people who sort of cling to things they might have done a long time ago. Yeah. And you just said, I'm retired. That's so great.

[Bozema St. John]

Look. Well, because, I mean, look, that's. That's the present time. You know what I mean? And I. Look again. I don't need to necessarily rest on the things I've done, done in the past. I think my greatest days are ahead of me. I honestly do. I mean, so I'm just like, hey, look, this is. You're catching me right now.

[Alex]

In retirement, we've had people who've accomplished far less who are gonna, like, hold.

[Bozema St. John]

On, like, mediocre accomplishments. No, no, no. I. I am very happy in the place that I am currently. And that's why when people are like, oh, you know, who are you? What have you done? I'm like, yeah, I'm gonna tell you what I'm doing right now. That's it. I don't need to go back in the histories and tell you all that stuff. No.

[Alex]

So we have the reunion coming up shortly. What are the burning questions that you want answered at the reunion?

[Bozema St. John]

Well, you know, so it's been really, really wild to me to watch the show and see the other women's Perspectives on things. You know, it's like, because, you know, while we are in the conversation, sometimes I don't know the conversation that Erica and Kyle have or that Sutton and Garcelle have or anybody else, you know? And so there's been a lot of, like, surprises to me where I'm just like, oh, wow, she felt that way. Like, that's. I had no idea, you know, or watching the after show and then seeing opinions come out there. So I think that for me, there's, you know, there's just a lot of unresolved issues that I don't know that really came to a head during the show. You know, I'm like, I still don't understand why Sutton gets so upset about things, and I really have no idea. I would love to know that better.

[Alex]

I look forward to you hunting down those answers.

[Bozema St. John]

Oh, baby, let me tell you. But the thing is that, like, look, I also understand that relationships change and evolve. People change and evolve. And so, you know, the friendship I have with Erica, I really enjoy. Like, I really like her a lot. I can't imagine her as the person who was able to say what she said to Garcelle's son. Like, I can't imagine it today. Maybe she. Maybe it's lurking in there somewhere, and I hopefully never see it, you know, but at the same time, I'm like, wow, how do y'all mend relationships like that?

[Alex]

I think that it's part of the. The call of all of this, because I think that you continue to spend time with each other.

[Bozema St. John]

Yeah.

[Alex]

And I think things happen and you have to talk them through, get over it. And then the show airs and you revisit it. You know, it's like picking at those scabs.

[Bozema St. John]

But that's the thing. That's what. That's what I'm actually scared of for the reunion, because I'm just like, oh, gosh, there's some things that I feel like were put to bed. And then in watching the show and hearing people say stuff, it's like, what's going to be unearthed again?

[Alex]

Yeah.

[Bozema St. John]

You know, it's like, I don't know if Kyle knew that I thought she was a liar or that I think she is a liar. Let me make that correct. You know, it's like, girl, that girl was lying. So I don't know if she knows that I thought that, but she does now. She does now. And what does she think now about that? You know, Because I believe she believes that she was in the right, and I firmly believe she was in the wrong.

[Alex]

You're right. That's it. Because you and she hadn't exactly talked about it at the time. There wasn't really the opportunity. You didn't hide your point of view?

[Bozema St. John]

Oh, no, I didn't hide my perspective about, you know, what? I believe, like, now Textgate was about, like, I didn't hide any of those feelings. But I think that she firmly believed she was in the right so much that she was unwilling to hear what anybody else really had to say. So I don't know if during, you know, this season of watching and hearing what I had to say or anybody else has to say, if she at all had a change of heart, I would like to know that.

[Alex]

Yeah.

[Bozema St. John]

Like, you know, I hope that she's honest about that and says, girl, whew. I watched that back, and I was dead wrong.

[Alex]

She did not have a relaxing spa day at your house.

[Bozema St. John]

Nobody had a relaxing spa day.

[Alex]

No.

[Bozema St. John]

Literally no one. You know what I mean? I feel. I think even the chef was under pressure.

[Alex]

Oh, my God. I was so stressed out watching it.

[Bozema St. John]

I know. I tried, you know, I tried my best, but now I know. No more serenity spa days for these girls at my house. Uh, no, I will not be doing that.

[Alex]

That's classic Real Housewives.

[Bozema St. John]

Is it? Yeah.

[Alex]

Everyone is in a robe, ready to relax.

[Bozema St. John]

Oh, my Go. And then, boom, all hell breaks out. Oh, my God. Well, I won't be doing that again.

[Alex]

So you came into the group through Sutton.

[Bozema St. John]

Yes.

[Alex]

And now you're at a different place with her.

[Bozema St. John]

Yeah.

[Alex]

Tell me about that. Tell me.

[Bozema St. John]

Well, I'm very surprised, you know, at the Sutton who showed up in our conversations. And in this season, like, I am shocked by it, because she's not the person I anticipated. You know, it's like, Sutton is, you know, got an opinion. She is sharp, she's witty, she is a good friend, you know, will show up for those who need her, want her in their lives. And so to see her, like, pull experiences and then turn them on people or to be really mean, you know, for me, it's like, that was what was so surprising to me. Like, I just didn't anticipate that Sutton would be so mean. And so I don't know who this version of a person is and whether or not she is trustworthy from now on out, I just. I have no idea. It's like, I feel like she's one of those people that I will watch my back with.

[Alex]

Do you think she should pick on someone her own wallet size?

[Bozema St. John]

Oh, my God, now that was a low blow. My God. I was like, look again. Old adage. There will always be somebody richer and somebody skinnier. Okay, girl. So. Well, Sutton is very thin, but my point is, there is no way that she should be picking on anybody, buying anybody's wallet, okay? She didn't make that money herself, so we should actually be talking to her man, Christian Strack.

[Alex]

Open invitation.

[Bozema St. John]

Exactly. I'm like, she wants to talk about wallet size. Show me the money you made, and then we'll see who wins. It's been very surprising to me also to think that, you know, some of these ladies think that I'm so easily, like, you know, swayed that I just don't even know how that'd be possible. It's like, if you know who I am, it's like, do you really think that I survived all of these companies, all of these jobs by being led by the nose by somebody? It's not possible.

[Alex]

Yeah.

[Bozema St. John]

I promise you.

[Alex]

Well, and to your point, the, you know, if they have concern, then the most effective means of dealing with you would be to get to know you and to strike up their own friendship with you.

[Bozema St. John]

Unless they thought that they weren't interesting enough.

[Alex]

Yeah.

[Bozema St. John]

I mean, you could be intimidated and be like, oh, Dorit's got her attention. I don't know if I can get her attention too.

[Alex]

I just like that you came in as a complete free agent and just, you know, let things sort out as they would.

[Bozema St. John]

Yeah, well, because, like, I feel like that's what we should do. You know, it's like, look, there's many situations where you're gonna make a call eagerly and quickly and then be wrong on the call.

[Alex]

Yeah.

[Bozema St. John]

And if for whatever reason, Dorit is putting on a show and I'm like, you know, enjoying this experience with her, and then I see something different in a little while. Cause not everybody can keep up pretense forever. So let's pretend that she's been putting on a show, then I'll call it when I see it. But so far, look, Homegirl flew to New York to spend my birthday with me. I'm like, nobody else flew to spend.

[Alex]

Your birthday with you. To be there when you went on. Watch what happens live.

[Bozema St. John]

Yes, exactly. Hold my hand. Show me the ropes, you know? It was very, very sweet. I loved it.

[Alex]

Yeah. No, I thought that was really nice.

[Bozema St. John]

Yeah, it was a whole sleepover. She stayed in my suite with me.

[Alex]

Nice.

[Bozema St. John]

Yeah.

[Alex]

That sounds fun. It was fun.

[Bozema St. John]

It was great. We drank champagne, we talked shit. It was great.

[Alex]

And you've been there with her through her separation, which has taken some ugly turns.

[Bozema St. John]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But you know what? This is also the part of friendship which I appreciate about being her friend right now is that I don't have any bias about what her relationship is or was with PK I don't know it, you know? So I'm not gonna pretend like I know PK or say that, oh, he was a horrible father or a horrible husband. I don't know anything about that. You know? What I know is what she tells me about what's happening right now. And then that way I can advise her on what is happening right now. Other than that, I'm like, what do I know of PK I don't know him, but it's like, if he's behaving poorly right now, then that's the person I know.

[Alex]

What if she were to get back together with him? Then what would your look if she.

[Bozema St. John]

Gets back together with him? That's her business. Honestly. You know, it's like, there's also a saying that's like, if you like it, I love it. You know, it's like, hey, look, I think that the behavior up until this point has been very suspicious, and I don't know that I could do it, but if she wants to do it, girl, go ahead. But I'm gonna be sitting there with one eye like this, looking at him. Who's this man? And what's he really about? You know, Because I've also seen people play chess and so what are his real intentions in getting back together? Is it because he's losing? Or he will lose very badly in a divorce with her? Or, like, what are his real intentions?

[Alex]

Have you and PK Been texting memes to each other?

[Bozema St. John]

Ha. Oh, my God. First of all, for the record, I would not be texting my girlfriend's man, not on any day of the week, okay? And if I did, we'd be in a group text together, all of us, okay? So you could see the jokes. It means we could all laugh together. Ain't no way. Oh, my God. There's no way I would do that.

[Alex]

We could keep talking forever. So I just thought, such an interesting person who's had such a rich life, and you've contributed a ton to the show. But we can't keep talking forever because you're very busy.

[Bozema St. John]

Look, I've got businesses to run. I gotta go, so we will let you go.

[Alex]

But, Bose, it's great to see you. Thank you for stopping by. Thank you.

[Bozema St. John]

This has been awesome. Thank you. Can't wait to see more.

[Alex]

For an exclusive segment of my interview with Bozema St. John, I saw this.

[Bozema St. John]

Woman in a plastic outfit. I didn't think she was going to become the bestie, you know, like, who Knew?

[Alex]

Go to Bravo TV.com podcast.