A Candid Conversation About Aging, from IMO: The Look

Summary

Breaking Beauty Podcast — "A Candid Conversation About Aging"

Episode: From IMO: The Look | November 14, 2025
Featured Speakers: Michelle Obama, Jane Fonda, Bethann Hardison, Jenna Lyons

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Episode Overview

This episode is a unique blend of Breaking Beauty Podcast and a special preview of IMO: The Look, hosted by Michelle Obama and her brother, Craig Robinson. The focus here is on aging—particularly the experience of aging as women in the public eye, and more broadly, what it means to embrace maturity and purpose. Michelle is joined by iconic guests: actress Jane Fonda, model and activist Bethann Hardison, and designer Jenna Lyons. Together, they discuss the nuances, challenges, and freedoms that come with aging, the pressures of beauty standards, societal expectations, personal growth, and the importance of community and activism as life progresses.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Childhood & Early Expectations of Aging

• Michelle Obama recalls believing 60 was truly old because her grandparents’ generation accepted aging as an endpoint (04:16).
• As a child, Jane Fonda didn’t anticipate living past 30, shaped by her mother's early death and family hardship:

  “I’m not addictive, but I thought I was going to die from drugs and loneliness. So the fact that I’m almost 88 is astonishing to me.” (05:58)

2. Redefining Aging—Feeling Versus Appearance

• Bethann Hardison: Aging is more about how you feel than how you look. She only recently started noticing time’s effect on her body, but her “mind and spirit continue”:

  “I love being older because people jump to help you. And I love being older because I don’t act like it.” (06:44)

• Jane Fonda values intentionality and living without regrets:

  “If you don’t wanna die with regrets, then you have to live the last part of your life in such a way that there won’t be any regrets.” (08:37)

3. Aging and Health: Body, Baseline, and Balance

• The guests agree health is the foundation—knowing your "baseline" is important to recognize when something is wrong.

• Michelle balances healthy habits and indulgence:

  “You shouldn’t eat out and be worried about what you’re going to eat. Enjoy everything and take everything in.” (17:18)

• Jane Fonda stresses that the feeling of being old only arrives when health fails:

  “You don’t feel old as long as you’re healthy.” (11:24)

4. Evolving Fashion and Self-Expression

• Michelle Obama: Being tall was initially a struggle but became empowering with confidence and the right partner—embracing heels and her height:

  “Now that I … I love my height. I love a 4-inch heel … I completely own all of me.” (19:00)

• Jane Fonda shares a defining lesson from Katharine Hepburn about personal presentation:

  “This is your box. This is how you present. What do you want it to say?” (19:45)

• Bethann Hardison: Now fashion is less about self and more about helping others in the creative community (22:10).

• Jane Fonda has stopped buying new clothes, inspired by climate activism:

  “Greta Thunberg, the climate activist from Sweden … That’s what I look for now is recyclable, reused.” (22:48)

5. Love, Intimacy, and Friendship in Later Life

• Bethann Hardison on relationships:

  “I have people who take care of me and very nice people. … I just believe that women who are alone … should just let somebody who wants to come along and take care of them, love them, care for them. … It doesn’t even have to be sexual. … Intimacy is such an important thing, and it doesn’t have to be sexual.” (24:27)

• Jane Fonda prioritizes friendships:

  “My girlfriends are the world to me. They make me braver. They make me laugh. … Women look at each other and they’re not afraid to ask for help. … It feeds our soul.” (25:21)

6. Pressures of Aging—Industry Standards and Body Image

• Bethann Hardison never felt pressured by the fashion industry to "age out", crediting resilience and her unique outlook:

  “I’m gangster.” (26:48)

• Michelle Obama juxtaposes the high expectations for women versus the broader spectrum allowed for men.

• Jane Fonda: despite more inclusive representation for older women in media, progress is still recent and fragile.

• Jane is candid about growing up objectified, suffering from body dysmorphia and eating disorders, but finding freedom from concern with age:

  “At almost 88, I’m happy to say I don’t give a flying fuzzy rat’s ass. … I want to look good enough that I can get work, but I’m not worried about it anymore.” (31:02)

7. Personal History, Confidence & Identity

• Bethann Hardison shares her Brooklyn girlhood, including time in a territorial gang, attributing resilience and confidence to early independence:

  “I think people come to earth that have that. … Even though I was being oppressed, you were meant to grow.” (34:24)

• Michelle Obama: Confidence is often innate; as a parent, watching children’s unique personalities reinforce the role of nature:

  “There is a part of me that always felt like I knew certain things about myself, really young.” (35:06)

• Jane Fonda: Only in her 60s did she feel "her voice"—true self-assurance comes later for many:

  “I didn’t get a voice until I was in my 60s.” (36:12)

• There is consensus that writing, reflecting, and looking back helps clarify self-understanding and cultivate wisdom.

8. Societal Change: Representation and Activism

• Bethann Hardison recounts sparking inclusion in fashion with her letter to the industry in 2013:

  “No matter your intent, the result is racism. … I believed that they weren’t racist. I believed they were just… ignorant, and ignorant to me is much worse than racism.” (45:38)

• Michelle Obama and Jane Fonda discuss activism as both a personal and collective transformation:

  “I don’t feel like I really came into being until 1970, when I decided … I was never alone. I was part of a movement.” (49:50, 53:13)

9. Wisdom, Courage, and Letting Go

• Jane Fonda: Wisdom doesn’t come from having experiences, but from understanding them:

  “Wisdom doesn’t come from having a lot of experiences. It comes from understanding what they are.” (38:48)

• Michelle Obama is intentional about preparing the next generation:

  “As you age, for us to be intentional about making room. … Sometimes you have to let them lead whether they know all the answers or not.” (58:24)

• Jane Fonda: “We have to not be alone anymore. … Our democracy won’t survive if it’s each person for himself. We have to unite across sectors.” (61:29)

• Michelle Obama: Community sustains well-being and purpose throughout life’s later chapters:

  “It’s mostly community. It’s mostly having a big, broad set of people who I count on, that I feel nurtured by.” (63:35)

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Jane Fonda (05:58):
  “I thought I was going to die from drugs and loneliness. So the fact that I’m almost 88 is astonishing to me. … I wouldn’t go back for anything. I feel more centered, more whole, more complete.”

• Bethann Hardison (06:44):
  “I love being older because people jump to help you. And I love being older because I don’t act like it.”

• Jane Fonda (11:24):
  “You don’t feel old as long as you’re healthy.”

• Michelle Obama (17:18):
  “You shouldn’t eat out and be worried about what you’re going to eat. Enjoy everything and take everything in.”

• Jane Fonda (19:45):
  “This is your box. This is how you present. What do you want it to say?” (recounting Katharine Hepburn’s advice)

• Jane Fonda (31:02):
  “At almost 88, I’m happy to say I don’t give a flying fuzzy rat’s ass. … I want to look good enough that I can get work, but I’m not worried about it anymore.”

• Bethann Hardison (34:54):
  “I always had it. I think people come to earth that have that. I think you too, you came to earth with it. Well, no matter how much you were being oppressed, you were meant to grow.”

• Jane Fonda (38:48):
  “Wisdom doesn’t come from having a lot of experiences. It comes from understanding what they are.”

• Michelle Obama (58:24):
  “As you age…for us to be intentional about making room. … Sometimes you have to let them lead whether they know all the answers or not.”

• Jane Fonda (61:29):
  “Our democracy won’t survive if it’s each person for himself. We have to unite across sectors, and that’s what has to happen.”

• Michelle Obama (63:35):
  “It’s mostly community. It’s mostly having a big, broad set of people who I count on, that I feel nurtured by.”

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Memorable Moments

• Katharine Hepburn’s advice to Jane Fonda about self-presentation (19:45): A turning point for Fonda in viewing fashion as more than vanity but as a statement.
• Bethann Hardison's approach to unconventional relationships (24:27): Emphasizing joy, care, and emotional connection, regardless of age or expectations.
• Jane Fonda on female friendship as a longevity secret (25:21): “That’s why I think was one of the main reasons why we live longer.”
• Hardison’s activism: the 2013 industry letter that changed fashion’s approach to diversity (45:38).
• Final thoughts on generational transition and courage (58:24–61:29): The group stresses the need for bravery, unity, and passing the torch.

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Early memories/expectations of aging: 04:16 – 06:44
• Living intentionally, not fearing regrets: 08:17 – 09:21
• Baseline health and balance: 15:08 – 17:36
• Fashion, body image, and presentation: 18:04 – 22:48
• Relationships, love, and intimacy: 23:19 – 25:48
• Industry pressures on aging: 26:21 – 29:37
• Overcoming objectification & body issues: 31:02 – 32:16
• Roots of confidence & self-identity: 32:31 – 37:03
• Attaining wisdom and intentional reflection: 38:01 – 41:22
• Activism (Hardison’s letter, being part of a movement): 45:27 – 53:20
• Courage, change, and generational leadership: 58:24 – 62:12
• Role of community in happiness/longevity: 63:15 – 64:15

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Conclusion

This episode offers an insightful, heartfelt, often humorous, and courageously vulnerable conversation among legendary women. It reframes aging not as a diminishment but as a passage to deeper purpose, community, and self-acceptance, with joy in the freedom it brings. The lessons extend far beyond beauty or fashion—touching on love, wisdom, legacy, and the essential need for collective courage in challenging times.

Transcript

[Jane Fonda]

The following podcast is a Dear Media production.

[Jill (Podcast Host)]

Hey, Breaking beauty pod fam. It's Jill here, one of your hosts, and I'm sliding into your feed today to share something very special. A whole new series that's all about fashion and beauty. And this series is brand new. It's from one of our favorite podcasts called imo, which stands for, in my opinion, IMO with Michelle Obama and her brother, Craig Robinson. So on IMO's special series called the Look, Michelle Obama opens up for the first time about her journey and legacy as a fashion icon in and beyond the White House. And through a series of candid, intimate conversations with her longtime beauty collaborators. Can't wait for that. Fashion insiders and legendary women including Jane Fonda, Nina Garcia, Bethann Hardison, Elaine Welteroff, Jenna Lyons, among others. Michelle Obama reveals how she and her team leverage the scrutiny of her public in image to boldly celebrate self expression, inclusion and cultural impact. And this series is a companion to her book that's launching this month. It's also called the look, which is all about celebrating an extraordinary legacy of authenticity and representation that continues to permeate culture, politics, and fashion today. And in this episode that you're about to hear, a table of legends talks about aging. It's actress and activist Jane Fonda, former model and activist Bethann Hardison, and designer and businesswoman Jenna Lions. They all join Michelle to discuss what it means to age, to not just physically evolve, but also to become closer to our own purpose with age. Plus, they share some surprising advice about love. My ears are perked all the way up for this conversation, so you can hear the look series by searching for IMO with Michelle Obama and Craig Robinson. Wherever you listen to your podcasts.

[Jane Fonda]

Save me.

[Bethann Hardison]

So I never dated, you know, like, we just.

[Michelle Obama]

You got a boyfriend now.

[Bethann Hardison]

I have people who take care of me and very nice people. Okay. Okay.

[Jane Fonda]

Wow.

[Bethann Hardison]

Okay, people.

[Jenna Lyons]

Have you ever been on an app?

[Bethann Hardison]

Never.

[Michelle Obama]

Never.

[Bethann Hardison]

That's a date.

[Michelle Obama]

She's never been on a date. She's definitely not gonna be on.

[Bethann Hardison]

I'm too cool for that.

[Michelle Obama]

So when you say they take care of you.

[Bethann Hardison]

Yeah. I didn't know you people who love you.

[Michelle Obama]

You got your Wednesday, dude. You got your no.

[Bethann Hardison]

At different places.

[Michelle Obama]

Oh, oh, oh, oh. Yes.

[Bethann Hardison]

It's a little bit better to be in different places in the world.

[Jenna Lyons]

Welcome to the Look, a special series on imo. The look is also the name of Michelle Obama's beautiful new book, which is available for purchase now. I'm Jenna Lyons, designer and entrepreneur, and I'm Here with a table of legends. We have Bethann Hardison, a former fashion model, modeling agent and activist known for her groundbreaking work in the fashion space. And Jane Fonda, Academy Award winning actress and activist. And of course, needing no introduction, Michelle Obama. Thank you all for being here and thank you for having me. Today we're going to be discussing what it means to be a woman aging in the public eye. But we're also going to be discussing what it means to be a woman aging, period. How do we find our purpose as we age? So to get started, I'd like to get a sense of what aging has been like for all of you. We're going to start with you, Michelle.

[Michelle Obama]

Oh, my goodness, the baby Curious. The baby of the crew.

[Jane Fonda]

I'm not started yet.

[Jenna Lyons]

Oh, that's fair. I agree.

[Michelle Obama]

You think she started aging yet?

[Jane Fonda]

Not really, no, she hasn't.

[Jenna Lyons]

I mean, I happen to have been here at her 50th birthday party and literally, you look exactly the same. Exactly.

[Bethann Hardison]

But that's not aging. It's not what you look like, it's what you feel like.

[Jenna Lyons]

Well, I think that's an interesting point because I think that being younger, that's what I thought. I thought the Golden Girls was aging, and I didn't understand that aging can look very different. So I'm curious, when you were younger, what did you think aging would look like and what were you scared of?

[Michelle Obama]

You know, it was who your grandparents were and what a. And I'm doing the counting now. I'm trying to remember how old were my grandparents when I thought they were old and they were 50 in their late 50s and 60s. And as black people, working class black people, people died in their 70s. I had a great grandmother that lived until she was 83. My paternal grandmother lived into her 80s, but my other grandparents died in their 70s. And that wasn't an unusual thing. So I thought aging, if I were to think, I would think that by the time. I am my age now, and I am you guys, 62. Am I 62? Everyone help me. I'm 61. Okay, I'm sorry.

[Jane Fonda]

64. I was on my second husband. Wow.

[Michelle Obama]

But if I were to think of then what 61 was, 61 would be my grandparents, right? Yes. And I know that that's. And they were old. I mean, because back then people, people let themselves age. I mean, it was sort of like people just said, okay, that's it. I'm old. I'm through trying to worry about getting dressed and what I look like people were retiring. You Know, I mean, it just seemed like aging was off a cliff. Well.

[Jenna Lyons]

And I think society sort of made you feel like once you were a certain age, you were kind of not as relevant. I'm curious, Jane. What was it like for you? What were you worried about when you were younger, about getting older?

[Jane Fonda]

I didn't think I'd live past 30. I was sure I was going to die. My mother died when I was 12. My youth was not especially happy, and I thought I was going to die. I'm not addictive, but I thought I was going to die from drugs and loneliness. So the fact that I'm almost 88 is astonishing to me. What is even more astonishing is that I'm better now than I. I wouldn't go back for anything. I feel more centered, more whole, more complete. I'm very happy. Single or just.

[Michelle Obama]

Single working for you?

[Bethann Hardison]

No.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah.

[Bethann Hardison]

You're a fan. I'm a fan of you.

[Jenna Lyons]

How about for you, Bethann?

[Bethann Hardison]

I think just recently I've begun to notice that there's a change in time and my body, but my mind and my spirit continues. I have no problem telling people what I think, but I don't think I ever did have that problem. And I also love the idea that I'm loved by others. You still have men in your life, but you have your freedom to be independent. And I just love being older because people jump to help you. And I love being older because I don't act like it.

[Michelle Obama]

You sure don't. That's true.

[Jenna Lyons]

This is very true. Were you afraid of getting older when you were younger?

[Bethann Hardison]

No.

[Jenna Lyons]

You weren't.

[Bethann Hardison]

I never even imagined that. Like Jane said, I thought I wasn't going to live past the age 26. And when they gave me my 26th birthday party, I was supposed to be, you know, like a party celebrating me. And I just stood outside, scared to go in because I couldn't believe it was happening. But truth, it wasn't out of some other fear. It just was a thought. You know, I was a cool kid, but it was just something like that. And now it just don't seem to stop. My life doesn't stop. I'm always going and doing and, you know, still trying to change something or fix something or help something, even though I still want to be just in the hammock with a tequila.

[Jenna Lyons]

I'm curious. Was there, now that you've gotten older and you're feeling beautiful as you all seem to be really in your body, was there a moment where you sort of stopped worrying or sort of Stopped thinking about, oh, I have another gray hair. I have another wrinkle. Did it ever just stop? I'm looking at you, Jane.

[Jane Fonda]

I don't. I've never been afraid of aging. And more importantly, I'm not afraid of dying. But the most important thing I did was when I was going to turn 60. And in my mind, first 30 years, second 30 years, this is the beginning of my final act. And I didn't know how to live it. And so I thought, well, what am I most afraid of? I'm not afraid of. I'm afraid of dying with a lot of regrets. I watched my dad die with a lot of regrets. That was an important realization for me. Because if you don't wanna die with regrets, then you have to live the last part of your life in such a way that there won't be any regrets. I also wanna be surrounded by people who love me. Oh, oh, then I have to. Forgiveness comes into play, including forgiving myself. So. And that actually has guided me in the last 30 years I've been living to not have regrets.

[Michelle Obama]

I think it's interesting, Jane, that you say that. Cause I've been talking about this phase of my life. Because I'm trying to be more conscious about it. Because. And I think it disturbs some of the young people in my life when I talk about the. This perhaps last chapter, you know, If I think 60. Because I am trying to be mindful. 60 and on. And if I'm lucky to live to the age that you guys are. We're still talking about 25 more summers. 27, maybe 30, if we're lucky. When I say that, the horror that comes over the faces of young people.

[Bethann Hardison]

Young people.

[Michelle Obama]

And I'm saying I'm not regretful. I know how fast time goes. We will have almost been 10 years out of the White House. A decade we were in the White House.

[Bethann Hardison]

It doesn't seem so.

[Michelle Obama]

It doesn't seem so. But that 10 years flew. And in it, yes, I wrote two books and my husband wrote a book. And we campaigned for people and we made movies. Made movies. So much happened. It was like post. The White House having had eight years of a big, huge life of impact, there was still 10. And it happened like that. So I just told myself like I am. I so love life that I wanna be mindful of the time that I have. Because if you don't acknowledge that at 60, we do have maybe one more chapter, then it starts slipping away. I want time to slow down.

[Bethann Hardison]

So, you know, it's interesting as you Speak. You actually have been thinking about this like a novel. You've really been really thinking it out. And there's something that Jane said I heard some time ago that always makes me repeat it. She said, you know, you don't feel old as long as you're healthy. Mm.

[Jenna Lyons]

So true.

[Bethann Hardison]

Remember saying that?

[Jane Fonda]

Yeah. I mean, I think that old age is fantastic if it's lived intentionally. Intentionality is the key, really thinking about it.

[Michelle Obama]

Oh, God.

[Jane Fonda]

This happens to me all the time. I start a sentence.

[Jill (Podcast Host)]

Oh, my God.

[Jane Fonda]

What was I saying?

[Michelle Obama]

Welcome, welcome, welcome.

[Bethann Hardison]

Why should I be alone?

[Jane Fonda]

I don't remember.

[Jenna Lyons]

What was it that you.

[Bethann Hardison]

No, but I was saying that, what you've said. And I keep this in mind. I say it to it.

[Jane Fonda]

Yes, exactly.

[Bethann Hardison]

If you feel old, as long as you're healthy.

[Jane Fonda]

Yeah.

[Bethann Hardison]

If you're healthy, you don't feel. Oh, but I am someone who was raised to believe in death. So between my grandmother.

[Jane Fonda]

What does that mean, to believe in death?

[Bethann Hardison]

I'll tell you that my grandmother always said to me, when I was eight, nine years old, I said, what do you think? What's life gonna be like? And her name, Mama Carrie, I used to call her. And she'd say, I don't know, but for sure you're gonna die. She'd tell you straight up, I went to live with my father at 12, and he's an Islamic imam leader. And he would say to me also, they. You know, they live to die. They prepare their body, their world to die. You know, that's what they go to paradise. So you come up in two different backgrounds of people who really talk about death. So, like, when you're saying earlier about young people. Hate to hear you talking about, like, the journey and the end. And I'm all about that.

[Michelle Obama]

And my mother. My mother was like that. I mean, I joke that my mother was preparing us for her death when we were 10. Yeah, I'm so glad to hear that. Yeah. Because my mother, her philosophy of raising children, first of all, is like, first of all, I'm raising you for me. I'm raising you to be an adult and to be able to live independently and have an independent life, which meant that she wanted us to know that we could make it with or without her. And I think she was mentally. And I can see this now as a mother. As a mother, one of the points of exhaling is when my girls got to the point where I. Where I knew they would be fine without me, they would miss me, but that they're okay. They have the lessons in their head, they have common sense. They understand a lot of the basics. They still have a lot to grow. And I tell them this, this is a relief to me that you can take care of yourself. Because I see that in my mother. She wanted us to grow up and be ready. So when she died, which was, you know, it was recently.

[Bethann Hardison]

Yeah.

[Michelle Obama]

You know, she would always say, you can be sad, but be sad for a minute. Yeah.

[Bethann Hardison]

Yeah.

[Michelle Obama]

Because if you're sitting around moaning, moaning and acting like you can't get on, she says, I'm going to be in my grave really pissed, you know.

[Bethann Hardison]

No, I get the same thing. What you say when young people hate saying. Or people in general, no matter what age, they say, oh, don't talk like that.

[Jenna Lyons]

That's really.

[Bethann Hardison]

I think it's so ridiculous. I said, come on, we're going, everyone.

[Michelle Obama]

No one comes here. That's the only thing that's guaranteed.

[Bethann Hardison]

That's what she would say. My grandma. But for sure.

[Jane Fonda]

You mean that life.

[Michelle Obama]

Yes.

[Jane Fonda]

You know, it's like light makes sense of dark, noise makes sense of silence. Death makes sense of life. And if you don't deal with it, you're not really living fully.

[Jenna Lyons]

I think listening to all of you talk, you're all talking about the cerebral part, the healthy part, the emotional part of aging. And it's really interesting because I think when I was younger, I was scared of, I'm going to fall apart, basically. Like, that's what I. I was sort of bred to think that way. And listening to you talk, it's actually very, very encouraging and very inspiring.

[Bethann Hardison]

I'm.

[Jenna Lyons]

I'm thrilled to be hearing this. Michelle, you previously talked about how society has unrealistic expectations on what it means to age gracefully and how there's still an expectation to preserve your youthful appearance, which is a little bit of what I'm talking about. What are some of the ways you've pushed back against that messaging after hearing that?

[Michelle Obama]

You know, I. I agree with you both that health is the key. I mean, I work out, I think about what I eat. Don't give me, I dye my hair. I do care about the physical. But a lot of it is because I think we also have to have a healthy baseline in order to know when something is wrong. So I think we have to sort of maintain a baseline of health where you're not bloated and you're not constipated and things are regular and you know what hale and hearty feels like, because some of the first signs of illness come from fatigue. You know, well, how do you know that there's something wrong if you're always fatigued?

[Bethann Hardison]

I think I could be something wrong, and I'll just be running anyway. I need to slow down, but I can't.

[Michelle Obama]

Well, you know what?

[Bethann Hardison]

But it's not meant to be. Right.

[Michelle Obama]

But whatever you're doing, Bethann, is working. Right.

[Bethann Hardison]

It does work with spirit.

[Michelle Obama]

But I think baseline health is always important. That's first and foremost.

[Bethann Hardison]

Look how so many people really work hard at being healthy and they still die or they still get sick.

[Michelle Obama]

That's true.

[Jane Fonda]

We all die.

[Bethann Hardison]

But I mean, still get sick to die.

[Michelle Obama]

You know what I mean?

[Bethann Hardison]

There's still things you can do, you can do. It's just how your body works, your chromosomes, how they all work together, fit. You just never know. I mean, some people, you know, like, they said, well, my grandmother smoked and drank until she was 94. You know, things like that. But we do need to make an effort.

[Michelle Obama]

And it's all about balance for that very reason. You know, it's like if you. If you're working out so hard that you can't enjoy life. Right. Barack and I went out to dinner last night, and, you know, we were at a restaurant, and the guy said, are there any dietary restrictions? And Barack is like, I don't believe in dietary restrictions, especially when you're eating out.

[Bethann Hardison]

I mean, my.

[Michelle Obama]

In my opinion, you know, you shouldn't eat out and be worried about what you're going to eat. You know, these are the times that you should enjoy everything and take everything in. So while we're both very healthy, there's also the balance of, well, we got to find joy in it. Right. Because we don't know.

[Bethann Hardison]

Yeah.

[Jane Fonda]

I have a theory that, you know, I'm controversial and I'm an activist, and I've been very unpopular. I'm popular right now. It probably won't last. But I think that it's important for somebody like me, who's an activist to show that I can also look good and that I'm still hireable. You know, it encourages the young ones to not be so afraid.

[Michelle Obama]

Afraid of it. Right, right.

[Jenna Lyons]

I mean, I am curious because this. I'm a tall girl, and I'm just wondering, how has being taller affected your styling choices and when it comes to aesthetics and things like heels.

[Michelle Obama]

Oh, my gosh. You know, it was different at different ages. You know, when I was younger, being tall was like, oh, my God, terrible boys, they're short. And the clothes we there weren't tall sizes. They weren't long Inseams. So life was this, you know, pushing up the sleeve and stretching the pant leg down so that you weren't flooding. It was just a nightmare. Right. But now, oh, now that I.

[Bethann Hardison]

Glamorous.

[Michelle Obama]

Oh my God. I love my height. I love a 4 inch heel. As long as I'm just walking from here to there, that's all I do. It's like I can walk from the backstage to a chair.

[Bethann Hardison]

So you're like. So you're like the four year old in your, your mother's shoes.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah.

[Bethann Hardison]

When you get the heels. Yeah, that's how it is for me now.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah.

[Bethann Hardison]

Yeah.

[Michelle Obama]

I love the silhouette of the heel, the way it makes your foot look. But I like a kitten heel because I'm also. I don't want to be that uncomfortable. So now it's. I feel like I completely own all of me. My height, my. All of it. And fortunately I have a tall husband, but I have also have a husband who doesn't mind when I'm right eye to eye with him because I've got a heel on. He's like, okay, we're going to be tall tonight. And I said, yes, we are. And it helps because my partner loves every inch of me, so that helps.

[Jenna Lyons]

Was there ever an outfit that you look back on and I'm like, oh my God, that was my absolute flop.

[Jane Fonda]

What?

[Jenna Lyons]

Is there an outfit you can think of that was a total flop that you made?

[Jane Fonda]

Oh, yeah, hundreds. I mean, I never, you know, this is where my connection to how I looked changed. I was making on Golden Pond with my father and Henry Fonda and Katharine Hepburn and one of the early days, and I was. We were just about to start and I was looking in a mirror to fix my hair and she came up, Katharine Hepburn came up behind me and she took my cheek like this and she said, this is your box. This is how you present. What do you want it to say? I didn't know what she was thinking.

[Bethann Hardison]

What did I do?

[Jane Fonda]

Years of lying in Betheken. What did she mean? And then I realized what she was saying. You gotta see. I always thought that being self conscious was bad, but what she was telling me is be conscious of how you are presenting yourself to the world. Of course, nobody was as conscious of how she presented as Katharine Hepburn.

[Bethann Hardison]

Right.

[Jane Fonda]

She had a look and presented herself, but it really made me think. And so I started to pay attention to what I wore and how I looked and my hair I hadn't before and she didn't like that about me. So she really Taught me a lot.

[Jenna Lyons]

I would never have thought Katharine Hepburn would have been the one. She seemed like that wasn't something that was so present for her.

[Bethann Hardison]

But she wasn't a fashion person.

[Jenna Lyons]

That's what I mean. It wasn't.

[Jane Fonda]

No, she had a look.

[Jenna Lyons]

Right.

[Bethann Hardison]

She was more bohemian than anything. And bohemianism is much more tailing than.

[Michelle Obama]

She just felt like. You were just not thinking at all.

[Jane Fonda]

I wasn't thinking at all.

[Bethann Hardison]

Come on.

[Jenna Lyons]

Representative, what does fashion mean for you today? And this is a question for all of you, so you all get to answer this one. I'll start with you, Bethann.

[Bethann Hardison]

Well, you're asking the wrong person, because I'm not a big fan of fashion.

[Jenna Lyons]

Well, I think that's an important question to answer because you come from that world and you know the world well.

[Michelle Obama]

I mean, you don't like. Like, you, you know, comme des garcons. I mean, so.

[Bethann Hardison]

Yeah, but. And I also. And I'm always, also always in Gucci, as you see me go out now, mostly. Right. That's true, because I work as a consultant to the brand.

[Jenna Lyons]

Which era of Gucci are we talking about right now?

[Bethann Hardison]

But I think in the end of the day. What was the question again?

[Jane Fonda]

Just gotta stop quoting your relation to fashion today.

[Michelle Obama]

Oh, look at you. She's listening. Yeah.

[Bethann Hardison]

So now I think it really is. Yeah. I'm more concerned with helping others. I'm much more interested in helping designers and creative people. And we do have a community with designers, Hub, and things. I really want to help them to get it right, get out of it. Don't stay in it. Don't hang onto it. It's not what. It's all it's cracked up to be. Understand that what seems like it's what all that shines is not gold. All that glitter, all that, you know. Know what you should do and shouldn't. Don't get into it, because everybody thinks it's cool.

[Jenna Lyons]

I know. Jane, you said that you would stop buying new clothes at one point, and I'm wondering what triggered that moment for you.

[Jane Fonda]

Greta Thunberg, the climate activist from Sweden. You know, I mean, we've all seen images of the, you know, clothes get dumped and the ocean and how much we have. It's a problem. And this is Gabriella Hearst, totally circular. You know, the carbon footprint is minimal. So that's what I look for now is recyclable, reused.

[Bethann Hardison]

People are really conscious about what they make. Yeah, Right.

[Jenna Lyons]

So I'm curious, you know, as we get older, if we are single, there Is, you know, the dating world. And I'm curious if you're. I know you're not in it.

[Jane Fonda]

Are you in it?

[Bethann Hardison]

I have never dated in my life.

[Jenna Lyons]

Wait, explain.

[Bethann Hardison]

Dating is a very funny word.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah, well, what does that mean? I don't.

[Bethann Hardison]

That means, you know, you go to a bar and you sit there and you meet somebody or you start going out. I don't know. Seem like every time I ever met somebody that was my boyfriend, so I never dated. You know, like, we just.

[Michelle Obama]

You got a boyfriend now?

[Bethann Hardison]

I have people who take care of me and very nice people.

[Michelle Obama]

Okay.

[Jane Fonda]

Wow.

[Bethann Hardison]

Okay, people.

[Jenna Lyons]

Have you ever been on an app?

[Bethann Hardison]

Never.

[Michelle Obama]

Never.

[Jane Fonda]

That's what I could say.

[Michelle Obama]

She's never been on a date. She's definitely not gonna be on an app.

[Bethann Hardison]

I'm too cool for that.

[Michelle Obama]

So when you say they take care of you. Yeah, you got your Wednesday, dude. You got your. No.

[Bethann Hardison]

At different places in the world oh.

[Michelle Obama]

Oh, oh, oh yes.

[Bethann Hardison]

It's a little bit better to be.

[Michelle Obama]

In different places in the world Outing you. Do they know about each other?

[Jenna Lyons]

Where do you meet them? Like, do you.

[Michelle Obama]

Like you care?

[Bethann Hardison]

They're not going anywhere.

[Jenna Lyons]

Where do you meet?

[Bethann Hardison]

I mean, they're just, you know, you meet them when you go into a place in the world.

[Jenna Lyons]

Okay.

[Bethann Hardison]

And someone may introduce you to someone. But I. You know, Mexico, you know, and other places, too. You have people who you. I just believe that women who are alone, who profess to being lonely, they have such prerequisites of who they would date. And I think they should just let somebody who wants to come along and take care of them, love them, care for them. It doesn't even have to be sexual. It could just be the intimacy that we talk about. You said fear. Intimacy is such an important thing, and it doesn't have to be sexual. The fact that you could have that, and so many people said, well, he's too young. Why are you gonna marry him? Why is he too young? If he wants to be with you, enjoy him or her.

[Jenna Lyons]

Something like that.

[Bethann Hardison]

Yes. I would go out with somebody who is my age, but I can't.

[Jenna Lyons]

You have an age limit. Like a cutoff.

[Bethann Hardison]

No limits.

[Jenna Lyons]

Interesting.

[Bethann Hardison]

No limits.

[Jenna Lyons]

Okay.

[Jane Fonda]

No, I don't date. I get married.

[Bethann Hardison]

That's right.

[Jane Fonda]

You've done that three times. Great marriages, but, yeah, really interesting marriages. I'm really grateful, but I don't feel the need to date. Nobody asks me anyway, so. But I dated. My girlfriends are the world to me. They make me braver. They make me laugh. You know, women friends Are very different than male friends.

[Bethann Hardison]

Absolutely.

[Jane Fonda]

Male friends sit next to each other looking out at things. Girls, women, cars, sports. Women look at teach.

[Jenna Lyons]

So true.

[Jane Fonda]

And they're not afraid to ask for help. Boy, am I need. Give me a hug. What should I be doing now? We're not afraid to be vulnerable with each other. It feeds our soul. Even if I don't know, we've been apart for years. When we get back together, soul level right away, drill right down. And that's how we. That's why I think was one of the main reasons why we live longer.

[Jenna Lyons]

Bethan, this one is for you. What kind of anti aging pressures do you see in the fashion industry?

[Bethann Hardison]

Help lead me with that. Cause I don't understand.

[Jenna Lyons]

I'm just curious. Like the fashion industry is notoriously one for like, you are in and then you're out. You don't necessarily have a long career. I know I felt that in my own career that I was gonna age out of the industry. And I was wondering if you felt that.

[Bethann Hardison]

Never really? No. That's interesting.

[Jenna Lyons]

But did you feel it externally? People facing it towards you? Meaning maybe you didn't think that way, but did you feel. No.

[Bethann Hardison]

I'm gangster.

[Michelle Obama]

Bethann's special. Bethann is so special. I love you. She's such a special.

[Bethann Hardison]

I'm a gangster. At what? I. I don't think anything that in the idea. Really, truly, I never thought about that. You know. Cause even when I had dreadlocks long and that was many, many years ago.

[Michelle Obama]

People say before dreadlocks were in, before.

[Bethann Hardison]

They were in, people would say she had to get any pushback.

[Michelle Obama]

No, no.

[Bethann Hardison]

I mean, it doesn't.

[Michelle Obama]

I don't think you'd notice pushback if it pushed you in the face. I think you'd look and go, what's your problem?

[Bethann Hardison]

Some things, you know, some things you could see, but absolutely you're great about. And I think when you work in a corporation, you gotta. You be conscious of that. Cause you worked in a corporation.

[Jill (Podcast Host)]

Yeah.

[Bethann Hardison]

And in my world, you know, we're like flying by the seat of our pants. I had a model agency. I'm doing things I really shouldn't do, don't wanna do. In the end of the day, you know, you're coming hardcore and people are cheering you on. I never even thought about that. Now I see myself in pictures and I see the difference of how I look when I. People say you still look the same and no, I don't. Look at this picture and look at that picture. I'm 40 years older than I was. And I feel bad about that, but it doesn't stop me or make me feel like, oh, no, I can't go forth.

[Michelle Obama]

But I think what you say, Bethann, to get to your point, Jenna, is that, yeah, there is crazy pressure that we're not supposed to evolve, you know, and men have a different kind of pressure, 100%. You know, just look at our leaders. Look at the. You know, I mean, what's allowed. Jane said as an activist, she feels like she has to show up looking good. Right? I don't think you'd hear a male activist saying that.

[Jenna Lyons]

Absolutely not.

[Bethann Hardison]

I don't think they could think it, but they probably. They couldn't say it out loud because they don't have that intellect to say it out loud. But they probably look it, but I.

[Michelle Obama]

Don'T think they think it. I don't think they. I think that they're.

[Bethann Hardison]

If you're a real activist, I think.

[Michelle Obama]

There are many ways physically for men to look powerful and be desirable. I think, you know, I think there's a wide spectrum. Now. I do think that men have a limit on what being a man is, and I think that that's a shame, that's a burden, you know, on men, that there's still three ways you can be. You have to be competitive, you have.

[Bethann Hardison]

To be tough, you can't cry, you.

[Jane Fonda]

Can'T show your emotions, ask for help.

[Michelle Obama]

So I think emotionally, they're limited, but. But physically, it's the world for sure.

[Jenna Lyons]

There's no question. I'm curious for you, Jane, because obviously your industry is very challenging in terms of what you were saying, Michelle. The standards of beauty for women in your industry are very different than they are for men. I mean, the number of times I've seen a man who's much older and his girlfriend or wife looks like she's 20 years younger. Do you feel like it's changed? Do you feel like it's getting better? Do you feel like it's still the same?

[Bethann Hardison]

No, I'm sorry. All I heard was younger. That's all I heard in the whole conversation.

[Jane Fonda]

It's hard. Yeah. I'm not sure that it's. You know, as I'm saying, I'm not sure it's getting better. I'm seeing Helen Mirren. You know, I'm seeing me. I'm seeing older women who are still taking leading roles, and I think that's. That's really good. I just came back from Paris. I walked the. I saw that the depile for l' Oreal I've been working for. I'm the oldest living skincare ambassador in the world. And they still. And me and Heron Helen.

[Bethann Hardison]

Because they know they have a market that's there. Yeah, there's no doubt.

[Jane Fonda]

But I really appreciate that.

[Bethann Hardison]

I do, too.

[Jane Fonda]

That they recognize that.

[Bethann Hardison]

Yes, I do, too. Very much so.

[Michelle Obama]

But that's new. I mean, that's recent.

[Jane Fonda]

Definitely recent.

[Michelle Obama]

And it's recent in the apparel, fashion industry, what we want to call it, because, you know, we see it on the Runway, we see it in commercials, you know, all sizes. Now.

[Bethann Hardison]

That'S definitely the last 10 advertising agencies.

[Jenna Lyons]

This is hurting the all sizes. I'm not gonna lie. That one. We are seeing rollback, for sure, But I think the diversity in age has gotten better. All right, go ahead.

[Bethann Hardison]

Question.

[Jenna Lyons]

You all have experienced the media scrutinizing your bodies over the years, and how did that affect how you viewed your own body? And how does that affect your current confidence?

[Jane Fonda]

I was made to feel fat when I was little and very much objectified by my parents. Well, my mom was dead, but my dad, he was a good person, but it was just a problem, you know?

[Jenna Lyons]

And it came from your father.

[Jane Fonda]

Your bathing suit is too big, you know, small. You got don't, don't wear.

[Bethann Hardison]

You didn't know.

[Jane Fonda]

Too short. I don't know. He was always critical of my physical being, and so I had body dysmorphia most of my life and suffered from eating disorders. So it's been a battle for me. And at almost 88, I'm happy to say I don't give a flying fuzzy rat's ass. I want to look good enough that I can get work, but I'm not worried about it anymore. If I was married to a man, it's still ingrained in me. You know, I grew up in the 40s and 50s. I would have a problem, but I'm single, so I don't care.

[Jenna Lyons]

Well, I will say that your workout video was one of my favorite. It was game changing. It really was.

[Bethann Hardison]

It really was.

[Jenna Lyons]

It was designed for women, and I was so inspired. I loved it. It was one of my favorites.

[Jane Fonda]

It was all done to raise money for the campaign for economic democracy.

[Jenna Lyons]

No, I did not know that. Well, it was very influential for a lot of young men myself, and I.

[Jane Fonda]

Was surpr at how. What an effect it had.

[Bethann Hardison]

It was.

[Jane Fonda]

It was great.

[Bethann Hardison]

Yes, it's true. It's cultural.

[Jenna Lyons]

All right, Bethann, this one is for you. When you started out in the modeling world, you were so often the first or the only Black woman in many spaces. What was it like for you to navigate the fashion world at that time? And how did that shape.

[Bethann Hardison]

I kept thinking about. I kept thinking about representing. I think I was thinking. Yeah, thank you. I think I was always thinking about representing. I didn't mind being the only one.

[Jenna Lyons]

You didn't.

[Bethann Hardison]

I never swept me none because I didn't think that anybody was better than I anyway. But I honestly did think I'm. Oh, this is just the beginning.

[Jenna Lyons]

Where did your confidence come from? I'm curious, because it seems so.

[Bethann Hardison]

I want to tell you a story. I used to be in a gang.

[Michelle Obama]

A gang gang.

[Jenna Lyons]

Wait, wait, back up.

[Bethann Hardison]

What? I used to be in a gang.

[Jane Fonda]

You were a gang banger?

[Jenna Lyons]

Where was this?

[Michelle Obama]

Cool.

[Bethann Hardison]

In Brooklyn. And I think sometimes you. Often I tell this to people. They go, are you serious? Yeah. But it wasn't a gang banger.

[Michelle Obama]

I believe it.

[Bethann Hardison]

Yeah, I know you do.

[Michelle Obama]

I thought you were gonna stroke me.

[Bethann Hardison]

Through this one again, but, no, I was. And I think, you know, even then, I always had confidence. I think I saw that I was a last key kid as a kid, you know, had to go home, you know, after seven years old, let yourself in the house, blah, blah, blah, blah. Both my grandmother, my mother worked, but I was on the streets fighting. It's true. Back then, it wasn't like real guns. You got mostly beat up. Maybe someone might have gotten stabbed. That was huge. And this gang was five boroughs, and it was one of the best gangs. And so I sometimes give them a shout out.

[Michelle Obama]

What was your enterprise? Your gang enterprise?

[Bethann Hardison]

What does that mean?

[Michelle Obama]

Was it drugs? Was it. No, we didn't have the. Were you slinging?

[Bethann Hardison]

This was the 50s.

[Jane Fonda]

Was it territorial?

[Bethann Hardison]

It's territorial, that's all. Yeah, see, she understands all these things. I'm just checking.

[Jenna Lyons]

I'm just checking.

[Bethann Hardison]

Bethany, do you really remember where you were? I think a lot of it is also. I really always. I started writing the book, and I realized by 12, I had really already been very successful. I did a lot of things on my own. I would tell my mother and grandmother what I was doing next, and they'd go, oh, my God, that's what else you gonna do? And, you know, they just let me go. So I think I always had it. I think people come to earth that have that. I think you too, you came to earth with it. Well, no matter how much you were being oppressed, you were meant to grow.

[Jane Fonda]

I think you're born resilient.

[Bethann Hardison]

Me, too. Me too.

[Jane Fonda]

And it's interesting because two siblings can Be born close together, same parents, and one will be resilient and one won't.

[Michelle Obama]

Exactly.

[Jane Fonda]

It's a reality.

[Bethann Hardison]

Same for the brain, too.

[Michelle Obama]

Well, you do, as a parent, if you have more than one kid, you know, you see it really clearly that nature really does play a role. There is a part of me that always felt like I knew certain things about myself. Really young, you know, like I knew what I knew.

[Bethann Hardison]

Me too.

[Michelle Obama]

And the confidence. Same thing. My mother would always say, oh, I didn't raise Michelle. She raised herself.

[Bethann Hardison]

Same, pretty much.

[Michelle Obama]

She always knew certain things. She's just like, I just let her go. And I'm like, mom, that's not true. I was listening to you. But when I think of the messages that I told myself, and that's why when I talk to young people, I'm trying to get them to tap into that voice because you hear it early in yourself. And I'm trying to tell kids, listen to that voice.

[Bethann Hardison]

If you're interesting, you're saying that that's interesting because that's true. But you don't know that when you're young.

[Michelle Obama]

That's the point. You don't know.

[Bethann Hardison]

You don't hear your voice. You just, you know, I didn't have one. I didn't have any. I didn't.

[Jane Fonda]

I didn't get a voice until I was in my 60s.

[Bethann Hardison]

I'm telling you, I don't think I got a voice until last week. What happened last week?

[Jane Fonda]

You were born with a voice.

[Michelle Obama]

No, I really did.

[Jenna Lyons]

We were in a gang.

[Bethann Hardison]

Last week. I started realizing, God damn, my ankles swell. Just every so often, age, time on earth, no matter how much I'm buzzing around in Fashion Week and coming here and doing just little things start coming to you, that makes, you know, okay, this shit's shifting. Like you said about time and men and just things, I start to realize, okay, and even though I just had a birthday, too, and I hate ever saying how old, now I just let people talk about it. I'm just so mad about it. I really am. I just don't want anybody telling me anymore. So you're 83.

[Michelle Obama]

Fuck you.

[Bethann Hardison]

It pisses me off, but I like being older. The freedom it gives you to be older. Right?

[Jane Fonda]

Me too.

[Bethann Hardison]

I know you do, because I know.

[Jane Fonda]

Who I am now. I didn't know for a long, long time. And I like to talk about that because it helps young people who don't know. You know, people are so. It's hard to be young. It's way eas.

[Bethann Hardison]

Yeah. Much easier.

[Michelle Obama]

I would Never. You don't have.

[Bethann Hardison]

Oh, me and the driver were just talking that back. Me either. I mean, the point. Well, first of all, I had a. I can't bullshit. I had a great growing up years. I had a very good childhood. And I mean I came out Bedford Stuyvesant, Brooklyn, two parents, both female, then went to live with my dad, who was much more out of the intellect and all. I really had a great childhood. I didn't have all the oppressions and things and being hit, so I don't have any complaint that way. But when you start to write about who you are, you start to learn more of who you are.

[Jane Fonda]

Yeah, that's true.

[Bethann Hardison]

You saying when you start to write about what was.

[Michelle Obama]

Well, the thing that I feel like when. And I don't know whether this is unique to women, but it is true for me that it wasn't until now that I feel like I can own my wisdom. The thing I didn't know. I can look back and go, I can look back now and say that four year old person did know something that I wasn't ready or able to claim because I didn't realize it. And I think we as women, I just find that we aren't ready to own our wisdom until now when we are sure that we've learned the lesson that when we can look back on a life and actually point to the things that have happened, to say, oh, that actually worked out the way I planned.

[Jane Fonda]

But you know, wisdom, it's interesting as an older person, I've learned this wisdom doesn't come from having a lot of experiences. It comes from understanding what they are. What they are. And that's why at a certain point in life it's so important to really think about your life. You know, when I turned 60, wanting to figure out the last I knew that you can't know where you're going unless you know where you've been. And that's when I began to really study myself. Like I wasn't me, like I was somebody else, like an archeologist. And then wisdom came. When I started to really figure it out, it didn't just. You know what I mean? Yes. Intentionally.

[Bethann Hardison]

You two are so smart. What I really. You are. You to me have always been one of the smartest women. I mean, really, you are. You really.

[Michelle Obama]

But I'm still not claiming intention.

[Bethann Hardison]

No.

[Jane Fonda]

Intentional.

[Michelle Obama]

You're not still not claiming your wisdom?

[Bethann Hardison]

No.

[Michelle Obama]

But she.

[Bethann Hardison]

You really. I've always thought of you being smart.

[Jane Fonda]

Thank you.

[Bethann Hardison]

Even with all the mistakes you think you made, I Always thought you are so smart. Listening to you now. I mean, the average young person would never think. A person like you said about how we think of age when we're kids, we think 50. Done. Here you are in your 80s talking shit that most people aren't expressing. Yes, that most people.

[Jane Fonda]

My son said the other day, my mother talked. Since I was born, my mother's talked about her death. It's focusing on the end and how you want the. I mean, I mean, we could all die tomorrow. We don't know how we're gonna die. But having a vision of how you want it, you're so smart and then living to that.

[Bethann Hardison]

And you're having you always being your husband, always saying how smart you were, how smart you were, how smart, you're so smart. And I never went to college, but you're so smart. I mean, I went to fit. That's not college.

[Michelle Obama]

I mean, but there's all kinds of smart, you know, I mean, because, you know, there are people who are more academically lettered, they accomplish more, they don't take the steps. But there's a combination. Smart is a combination.

[Jenna Lyons]

There's also, there's IQ and there's eq and they're very different. And I think particularly in the corporate world, EQ is often more valuable than iq.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah.

[Jane Fonda]

I spent a lot of time recently in Louisiana, on the Gulf, Louisiana and Texas with people who live near LNG terminals and they're called sacrifice zones. And most of the activists were women. They're so smart. Most of them didn't graduate high school, but they're the smartest people I know.

[Bethann Hardison]

People they just naturally have.

[Jenna Lyons]

Yeah, okay, I'm. Bring us back.

[Bethann Hardison]

Go ahead, go ahead, go ahead.

[Jenna Lyons]

This has been directed towards you, Michelle. You share in your book that society tends to diminish older women and expects them to fade into the background. Younger women too. However, you've chose to go the opposite direction and it's also shown up in your fashion and you've worn bolder looks and gotten much more sort of expressive. I'm just wondering if you can talk a little bit about how you're feeling now about the way you show up.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah, I think my trajectory was a little unconventional. You know, that eight year stint as first lady tends to confine to be a bit confining. Right. Because you know, the role, the job was not to just represent me, but to represent the nation. And as the first black family in that house. Just like, you know, black folks feel in all the first positions that we are the you Know, we're carrying the torch, we're lighting the way, which means that we've got to do it really, really well so that the next folks will have a chance. You know, when you're the only. You know, you feel like if you don't get it right, nobody will ever get this position. Women, people of color, people of different ethnicities, of different genders and sexual orientation, we all feel that. So a lot of my fashion choices, you know, as we talk about in the look, you know, the look was about using the language of fashion as a way to send a message. To send a message about beauty, about culture, about the American spirit, about inclusion. Right. So that was. You know, I had a role, right. Now that I'm out of that role, fashion is about me. It is selfishly. It's completely about what I like and what I wanna do. It was that way in the White House, I mean, but it was confounded. And so now I feel like whatever I do, I don't have to explain it or it doesn't have a consequence in that way. And it wasn't that I resented that, but that was the assignment I was representing, and now I'm just representing me.

[Jenna Lyons]

I remember one of the first outfits you wore after the White House were sky high boots and gold. And I was like, you guys, I've been waiting. So excited.

[Jane Fonda]

Well, you know, I got sent. This is so good, this book. I love the way you talk about what. What you just said, and I love the way it's manifested in there, because you really changed.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah.

[Bethann Hardison]

When you.

[Jane Fonda]

When you left.

[Bethann Hardison]

Well, that would make sense, too.

[Jenna Lyons]

I'm curious. It does.

[Bethann Hardison]

It's great.

[Michelle Obama]

We're evolving. I mean, that's the other thing. I mean, you know, I have. I'm at a different place in life. My kids have graduated. You know, I'm. I'm an empty nester. I don't wake up. I mean, until they left the house, I woke up, every thought was them. You know, it is when they're under my roof, I'm like, how are you? Are you eating? What's wrong with you? Are you happy? Am I screwing you up? Being in the White House gonna make you crazy? Are you crazy? You know, where are you? Why didn't you come home? Why? Are you in trouble again? Oh, my God. Did you do your homework?

[Bethann Hardison]

Are you a strict mom? Why?

[Michelle Obama]

I was. The girls would say I was strict because I just believed in boundaries. For kids. Absolutely. And the consequences of their mistakes would be national fodder. So I wanted to protect them. Through that period and then fight for some normalcy. And that takes a little structure.

[Jane Fonda]

Congratulations. Boy, did you succeed.

[Bethann Hardison]

But also, you're also your mother's daughter.

[Michelle Obama]

I am.

[Bethann Hardison]

And that's the same way I feel. I believe in being strict. Yeah.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah.

[Jenna Lyons]

Bethann, I know we've talked a little bit about activism, and particularly I know you wrote a letter in 2013 to the industry. I'm wondering if you can tell us a little bit about that, because I remember the wave that went through when.

[Bethann Hardison]

That happened in 2013, because the industry had sort of, like, lost its way where you didn't see for a long time, for 10 years, say, models of color. I had to use the model industry. I used that. And it was like a tool in my chest, the model. And it was just when you. I was a model and you saw it was normal to be one of girls of color, and. But then at some given point, it just disappeared. 96 after the black girls Coalition, when we had the Black Girls Coalition, 1996, Eastern Europe had opened up, and people started to go there. You know, scouts and model agencies were being told, you cannot. You know, we're just not interested in black girls. No blacks, no ethnics. No blacks, no ethnics. So whatever model agents, models that the agencies had, they'd have to say to someone during the season, I'm sorry, but other than that, you're seeing black girls this season, we're not seeing black boys. And so at this given point, you know, you say, listen, we have not been down this road. We had already conquered that. So now it's going like getting whitewashed. And I just had to do like a data checking how many models were being used by each agency to proof it, and then really hit the international market, which would be New York, London, Milan, and also Paris. And I wrote, I named all these houses that were guilty, basically, that no matter what the intention is, if you continue to use one or no or two models of color per season, no matter your intent, the result is racism. And to say that to an industry that would never think they're racist, but they're just busy frolicking with trend, really upset. I knew in my heart, I believed that they weren't racist. I believed they were just. Just bold face, ignorant and ignorant. To me, ignorance is much worse than racism to me. So I wrote the letter and sent it out, and then everyone started to scramble.

[Jenna Lyons]

It made a huge difference. I remember it was a sea change and change. Pretty important moment.

[Bethann Hardison]

And my point is, I was trying not only to change my industry but once we could put those images back into place, it would change all industries, and it has.

[Michelle Obama]

Well, this is the. You know, why history and understanding how we got where we are is so important.

[Bethann Hardison]

Right?

[Michelle Obama]

Because some would label that as dei, as affirmative action. Right. When the truth is, is that a lot of the fighting for equity and equality and inclusion is about the fact that DEI was happening in the reverse. That there was a lot of blackballing happening throughout the country. It's the history of America. You know, you can't join this union unless you were of this ethnicity. You don't get this opportunity because of the color of your skin, which means that a lot of the opportunities were earned without merit. It was earned because others were excluded and there wasn't real, clear competition. The best people weren't always getting the job. If you. You had to be the son of somebody, the daughter of somebody, that was. That was the history. And now to hear people criticizing dei, I mean, it's almost like, okay, we like affirmative action as long as it benefits us, but if it's gonna bring too many immigrants and people with different skin colors into the fold now, we're gonna go after it. But knowing this kind of history in the modeling industry, that's important. But it's also important to elevate it to where we are now.

[Bethann Hardison]

That's why I've made it that way.

[Jenna Lyons]

Jane, this one's for you. So since the 70s, you've been a very loud activist and willing to fight and sometimes get arrested for major political and civil rights issues. Do you still see yourself as that person today, and how has your activism changed?

[Jane Fonda]

I want to talk about how activism has changed me. I don't feel like I really came into being until 1970, when I decided, because I lived in France, I was married to a Frenchman. I came back here because I couldn't protest in France. It didn't feel right. And I met people that were different than any people I had ever met.

[Jenna Lyons]

How so?

[Jane Fonda]

Yeah, well, I remember there was a woman that ran a GI coffee house in Killeen, Texas. And, you know, sometimes you find something that you didn't know you were missing. You didn't know it existed. The way she was with me and with the gis was different than any people I'd ever met. It was like looking at the world we were fighting for through a keyhole. And I just. That's the team I want to be on. And I like to talk about that, because the way she was with me is the way we have to be with the Millions of people who are gonna be hurt by what's happening now.

[Michelle Obama]

And what was that different? Yeah.

[Jenna Lyons]

I'm curious.

[Bethann Hardison]

How was she with you?

[Jane Fonda]

It had nothing to do with what I looked like. It had nothing to do with the fact that I was famous. Barbarella had come out. She wanted to know. Cause I was being sent onto the base with leaflet for a rally. That was kind. She wanted to know how I felt. What do you think? She asked my opinion. Nobody had ever asked my opinion about things like that. I was so new. She treated me with respect, but she treated the GIs that way too. And I saw this. She just showed up in a very human way. And I hadn't experienced it before. And that says something about the life I was living. It was quite hedonistic and superficial, and I had avoided dealing with real things because I knew once I knew I'd never turn back.

[Michelle Obama]

There you go.

[Jane Fonda]

Yeah. And I just. This is the way we have to be. You know, the cliche is be the change you're seeking. And she was. And that's the way we have to be.

[Michelle Obama]

What do you think is missing in terms of courage? Because it takes a certain level of courage to leave a life of safety, even though it wasn't perfect. You know, you were able to live in a, in a bubble of sort of.

[Jane Fonda]

Well, my dad. See, my dad, I grew up with Tom Joad. I grew up with Grapes of Wrath and 12 Angry Men and exposure to that, you know, I was writing my autobiography. One day the phone rang. It was Yolanda King. It was Martin Luther King's daughter, Yolanda. And I don't remember why she was calling, but since I was writing, I said, yolanda, when you were growing up, did Martin Luther King, King bowed you on his knee and talk to you about values and how to live life? And she said no. I said no. My dad didn't either. But you had his sermons and I had my father's films. And so that kind of was like fertilizer in my soul. And so when I started meeting these new kinds of people, it's like I didn't want to go back, number one. And number two, I, I, you know, they thought, oh, she's a white privileged girl. You know, give her a little hard time and she'll cave, Right?

[Bethann Hardison]

That's right. The more they attacked me. That's why you.

[Jane Fonda]

But also the other important thing is I was never alone. I was part of a movement.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah, that's right.

[Bethann Hardison]

You.

[Jane Fonda]

That's what we have to do now. We have to rebuild movement. Movement of resistance along the lines of cnn, Creative, non violent, non conforming.

[Bethann Hardison]

Yes.

[Jenna Lyons]

Is there anything that scared you when you were younger but no longer scares you?

[Jane Fonda]

The thing that always scared me was intimacy.

[Jenna Lyons]

Oh, interesting.

[Jane Fonda]

I've been under bombs. I've been, you know, I've had all kinds of things. But emotional intimacy has always been hard because I didn't experience it growing up. So it's hard. Yeah, that scares me today too. I don't know, because only with men I'm flying with.

[Bethann Hardison]

She's not with anybody.

[Jane Fonda]

I'm fine because I'm single now.

[Bethann Hardison]

You could be intimate with yourself now. You could be intimate. Yeah.

[Jane Fonda]

Thank you. Yes. There's a dwarf.

[Bethann Hardison]

That's true.

[Jane Fonda]

It's a whole other thing.

[Bethann Hardison]

No, that's a good one.

[Jenna Lyons]

Michelle, I have the same question for you. Is there anything that scared you when you were younger but doesn't scare you anymore?

[Michelle Obama]

Oh, yeah, there are tons of things. You know, the dark, the boogeyman, all the, the, the myths and scary things.

[Bethann Hardison]

So you're, See, you don't see scary films.

[Michelle Obama]

I don't like scary films. I do not. I mean, the last. Well, I think I saw the Exorcist a little too young, and I was like, this isn't fun.

[Bethann Hardison]

Or Jaws, all of that.

[Michelle Obama]

It's just not fun. Not fun. The thing that scares me now maybe I'm flipping the question, you know, regular life, regular little things, failure doesn't scare me. But nowadays it's our lack of willingness to understand context, to understand history, and to learn from our history. We are moving in a direction. We are going backward to a time when mistakes were made and things were bad. But history taught us that we don't want to go there. People weren't happier, we weren't safer, things weren't more affordable. You weren't rich suddenly, because there were no immigrants.

[Bethann Hardison]

Quite the opposite.

[Michelle Obama]

Fairness, giving people a living wage, making sure every person in this world has a stake in the bigger picture, like, that keeps us safe, you know, making sure people have jobs and they can pay their bills. You know, all of that matters. Like there was a time of courage. You guys lived through a time of people really tapping into some courage. And especially people who have nothing to lose if you're already rich, if you have some kind of grounding, if you are old enough, enough to be able to lose. Like, I wonder what's missing that we need inside of ourselves to get us to a place to want to organize and to, you know, sort of recapture. And I, I'm just curious, I think.

[Jane Fonda]

You know, in the 50s, my father was part of the committee for the First Amendment that was resisting McCarthyism and the. The House UN American Activities Committee. We launched, relaunched the Committee for the First Amendment the minute we went public. Oh, my God. Hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people from the entertainment industry signed up. I mean, it's wild. It's wilder than I expected. People are ready, I think.

[Bethann Hardison]

Well, that's great. I think that's good to hear because that's my fear. It's like what we didn't have fear about before. Seems like, will we have the power to do now or we have to.

[Jane Fonda]

Act fast, you mean?

[Bethann Hardison]

Yes, exactly. You know, like before.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah.

[Bethann Hardison]

I remember saying, I'll die for my people. You know, take me, not my people. You know, being real gangster in the street and wanting to fight. You know, be down with the Panthers and do everything we can do, whatever. What can we do? Like you said, the last of fear. And now I see at this stage of my life, I'm thinking, glad I got my permanent residency in Mexico. You know, you start thinking you don't want to be the one to chicken out because you never was that person. You know, where's the. But this is never like we've ever seen before. So I'm thinking, who's going to really come with it? How can we sneak and win, you know, that kind of thing. So that's some of my stuff now. I'm thinking about that in my mind.

[Jane Fonda]

And like, that we're up against, though it's dangerous, but it's also empty. It's hollow. So it's weak. And if we can get solidarity, strength in numbers, and make it look as ridiculous as it really is, we win. We just have to do it quickly.

[Bethann Hardison]

Yeah, you have to move fast. It's being moved very quickly.

[Jane Fonda]

Very quickly.

[Michelle Obama]

Well, and on the issue of aging and the next chapter, I'm working on the balance of leading, but making real space for the next generation of leaders. Because I also think that we do need to get the next generation really geared up and ready because these are truly their battles that they have to face. It's going to be the world they inherit, most of us know. I think I'm on the tangent of having experience the country at not its best. I think I'm of the rare generation where we benefited from all that struggle, but we weren't really in it. But I knew enough in history. My grandparents were alive. You still knew people who went through it that was alive, that the consequences were real. And in your face. So that's why I think it's important for as you age for us to be intentional about making room. You know, we've gotta have a plan in this next chapter to move out of the seats, to let the next generation lead. And sometimes you have to let em lead whether they know all the answers or not, you know. Cause when are you ready to lead? Like, we didn't know we were ready. I mean, we were in the White House, we were in our 40s, we had little kids. I mean, I was like Barack, are you sure you wanna do this?

[Jenna Lyons]

You didn't know?

[Michelle Obama]

No. No. You never. I don't think you ever know that you're ready to lead. I think you just have to start doing it.

[Bethann Hardison]

It's the same thing with the letters. It's the same thing with me writing those letters. The same thing. Knowing that I'm getting ready now. Even though I believed that I was the one to do it because other people thought I was the only one who could do it, you still sit there and you take four years before you make that move. Because should I? This is gonna be something. And I was so clear about it. And I knew I had to believe in the industry in order to do it. Because if I thought I had to fight, I don't know if I would have done it. But I knew how ignorant they were. I just knew that I needed to educate the whole point. You educate people along the way. And that's the thing that was so important, education.

[Jane Fonda]

Well, we just all have to get really brave.

[Bethann Hardison]

We have to get our brave. That's right.

[Jane Fonda]

I always refer to. We've all seen the documentaries, the March in Selma, the Bridge, the Batons and the Dogs, South Africa, all over the world. And probably like me asked, would I have been brave enough to do that? And we don't have to ask anymore.

[Bethann Hardison]

This is it. This is it.

[Jane Fonda]

Right now. We are in our documentary moment and we either are brave enough or we're gonna lose. But I think we're brave enough.

[Jenna Lyons]

Did you expect to be still doing this kind of level of activism at this age? Like, did you ever think I didn't expect anything?

[Jane Fonda]

Like I said, I thought I'd be dead at 30. I thought I had nothing to offer. No, I just slowly came into. Cause I'm surrounded by people who've been doing it longer than me and they give me courage and strength. I'm not alone. We have to not be alone anymore. Ever since the individualism has been raised up as the pinnacle. This is what we're going for each person for himself. Our democracy won't survive if it's each person for himself. We have to totally smash that. We have to start thinking about the public good, the public sphere. We have to unite across sectors, and that's what has to happen.

[Michelle Obama]

I think, generationally, something that has changed. To answer my question about courage, you remind me, Jane, about. Of the isolation and the focus on individuality that I think is crippling. And I think technology, our heavy reliance on social media, our phones. Young people have become content in thinking that they can be happy all on their own. And it's easy to do that because, guess what? It's hard to come out. It's hard to be together. I think it's harder for a certain generation to do that now. But I think, think, you know, what I've learned in these many years, just as you've learned, Jane, and I know you have, too, Bethann, is that we don't do anything on our own. That that's not. You know, that individuality isn't a virtue. You know, standing on just on your own and getting to a place. I got here on my own, that seems like a sad way to get anywhere.

[Bethann Hardison]

Plus, they don't even go to a movie.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah.

[Bethann Hardison]

I mean, for me to go with.

[Jenna Lyons]

It and see for a movie, I cannot. I can get them to watch a television show, but I cannot get them to watch me.

[Bethann Hardison]

Yeah, that's very true. They really won't even go into a movie theater where you do have a feeling of being with others, naturally, they say, no, I got it. I got it right here.

[Michelle Obama]

And I think that, for me, I think it helps in my feeling of longevity. My heartiness at this stage in life is that, you know, whether it's fashion or hair or dyeing my hair or staying in shape or eating right, it's mostly community.

[Bethann Hardison]

Yes.

[Michelle Obama]

It's. It's mostly having a big, broad set of people who I count on that I feel nurtured by. And while eight years in the White House were depleting in one way, it was also reinforcing because it was eight years of connecting to this country.

[Jenna Lyons]

That's a nice note to end on. I will say this has been deeply inspiring for me. I came in here with totally different expectations, and I'm moved. It was really special. So thank you for.

[Michelle Obama]

This is really special for me as well. Thank you. Thank you all for taking time out of your lives. I mean, this is one of my dream conversations. It really, really is. And it has lived, lived up to every expectation. Let me just tell you, I. When I grow up, I want to be like you both. And you as well, Jenna. Coming up. Baby. You're the baby.

[Jenna Lyons]

Four years younger than you.

[Bethann Hardison]

Yeah, but that's the baby.

[Michelle Obama]

I'm calling you the baby because I'm the baby.

[Bethann Hardison]

I stay with you in that. I really want to say that, too. I am so grateful. As you've said, being loved, whether it be your male friends or your female friends, having that respect and honor from so many is so. It's been like a chariot for me.

[Michelle Obama]

But I think what's important for these conversations is that there are gonna be a lot of women of all ages, and men, too, that are gonna hear this. This is great. And it's about sharing and the level of vulnerability that everyone displayed here. This is. To me, this is like a ministry of conversation, you know? Cause people will look and say, well, if these women think this way, feel this way, have lived this long, or growing this way, then there'. There's still so important.

[Bethann Hardison]

I quote Jane often, like I said about, like, even about, you never feel old if you're not sick. If you're. You know. That's so true, though, when you start feeling sick and you fall into that. And I'm really grateful for this conversation, too, because no one thinks to have them.

[Michelle Obama]

Yeah.

[Bethann Hardison]

Yeah.

[Michelle Obama]

Well, thank you all.

[Jenna Lyons]

Thank you. Thank you.

[Michelle Obama]

Well done. You got it.

[Bethann Hardison]

All right. Tequila, tequila, tequila.

[Jill (Podcast Host)]

And that was a preview of IMO with Michelle Obama and Craig Robinson. Find more episodes wherever you get your podcasts. Me.

[Jane Fonda]

Save me.

[Bethann Hardison]

Forever. Save me.