How-to Think (And Shop!) Like a Cosmetic Chemist with Glow by Ramón

Summary

Breaking Beauty Podcast
Episode: How-to Think (And Shop!) Like a Cosmetic Chemist with Glow by Ramón
Date: February 18, 2026
Hosts: Jill Dunn & Carlene Higgins
Guest: Ramón Pagán (Glow by Ramón)

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Episode Overview

This engaging episode features cosmetic chemist and creator Ramón Pagán (aka Glow by Ramón), who joins hosts Jill Dunn and Carlene Higgins to demystify the beauty world through a chemist’s lens. Listeners learn how to think critically about formulations, ingredients, and marketing claims, and get tips for savvy skincare shopping. Through in-depth conversation, Ramón breaks down ingredient myths, explains how new innovations come to market, and shares his best (and least favorite) product recommendations — all with plenty of humor and expert perspective.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Meet Glow by Ramón & His Beauty Journey

• Ramón’s Background (11:24–12:06):

  • Began in beauty due to his own struggles with severe acne. Initially used makeup for coverage, which led to a deep dive into ingredients and eventually a career in cosmetic chemistry.
  • “It was really bad acne... then became a deep dive. And here we are, like, 10 years later.” (Ramón, 12:01)

• Product Formulator vs. Cosmetic Chemist (12:06–13:56):

  • Formulators can execute a recipe in the lab; chemists possess foundational chemistry knowledge to innovate and troubleshoot.
  • “There’s a debate as to what really qualifies you as a cosmetic chemist... For me, it's less a qualification thing and more just an ability to understand intricacies, to troubleshoot.” (Ramón, 12:25 & 12:41)

2. Ingredient Myths & Setting Sprays

• Alcohol in Setting Sprays (14:33–16:23):

  • Not all setting sprays contain alcohol; those that do use it to help film formers set but many popular ones are alcohol-free.
  • Alcohol isn’t inherently bad in cosmetics—unless you have a known sensitivity, it’s generally safe and functional.

• “So we don't need to be afraid that there's alcohol... No... I'm very pro alcohol in a lot of products... It can make things more lightweight, feel cooling... It flashes off so quick.”
  (Ramón, 15:10–15:35)

3. How New Ingredients & Tech Reach Beauty

• Sourcing Innovation (16:54–18:32):

  • Many ingredients are adapted from other industries (medical, food science, material science).
  • Increasing focus on upcycling byproducts (e.g., cellulose from paper industry, rosehip oil byproducts).

• Example: “So much in ingredient innovation is actually borrowed from other industries. The primary film formers are borrowed from Paint Street. Analytical practices from the food industry...” (Ramón, 16:57)

4. Medical-Grade Ingredients: Reality or Hype?

• Growth Factors, Exosomes, etc. (19:12–21:04):
  • Injected substances may have benefits, but topical efficacy is often much less clear.
  • Biggest concern: “In a finalized product... is that ingredient still viable and is it able to get to where it needs to do what it needs to do?… That’s not always the case.” (Ramón, 20:00)

5. Reading Ingredient Lists (a.k.a. INCI/Label Literacy)

• How Ramón Shops (21:25–22:53):
  • Looks for sensory experience first, then benefit claims, then price—skeptical of high prices for ordinary products.
  • “At the end of the day, a moisturizer [is] going to moisturize... So some of those claims do get outlandish... And then that's when I start looking at the price point.” (Ramón, 21:57)

6. Product Pricing: What's Worth It?

• Raw Material vs. Retail Price (23:14–24:17):

  • Manufacturing cost is usually low ($1–2/unit); price is driven by clinical testing, packaging, and brand narrative.
  • “Formulas are really not expensive to make... what you’re really buying then is the markup, the marketing cost, the packaging.” (Ramón, 23:17)

• When Price May Be Justified:

  • Expensive clinical trials to verify claims can drive product cost.
  • “That’s where to me, the price point actually can make a difference.” (Ramón, 24:15)

7. Actives vs. Functional Ingredients

• Definitions & Regulatory Nuance (24:55–28:28):
  • True ‘actives’ are ingredients with a biological effect, but many basics (glycerin, lanolin) can straddle the line.
  • Regulations (and marketing) vary: a claim like “treats acne” is a drug, vs. “improves appearance of blemishes” is cosmetic.
  • “There's a very clear definition of a cosmetic does this. And if you're selling as a cosmetic, you have to be diligent about the wording.” (Ramón, 27:00)

8. Expensive vs. Cheap Ingredients: The Truth

• Cost Drivers (29:38–31:11):
  • Bioengineering, sourcing (Swiss/European/Asian), scarcity, import costs can all drive up expense.
  • Ingredient complexes (cocktails of multiple actives) further complicate cost analysis for consumers.

9. Ramón’s Ingredient Hot Takes

• Won’t work with?

  • “No. I work for brands... and there's just—I do this because I like it, and therefore, it's always fun to play with... There's nothing that’s inherently bad or just, like, I’m over that.” (Ramón, 31:18)

• Most Underrated:

  • Lanolin and glycerin — simple but highly effective.
  • “Glycerin’s just a really amazing product by itself... superstar.” (Ramón, 31:56/32:22)

• Most Overrated:

  • Hyaluronic acid.
  • “I think there’s a lot of other ingredients that do better, or just tell a better story.”
  • Name-checks polyglutamic acid and ectoin as worthy alternatives. (Ramón, 32:29–32:46)

10. Ingredient Percentages on Labels

• Should consumers care?
  • Not really. Complexes and actives are nuanced—clinical proof matters more than percent on a bottle.
  • “Do you see the benefits you want from the product?... Don't worry about the numbers.” (Ramón, 34:05)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Ingredient Sourcing:
  “We pull from a lot of different industries, food science as well...so much in ingredient innovation is actually borrowed.” (16:57)

• On “Sexier” Ingredients:
  “Exosomes are more sexy to talk about right now. So they get a lot of the headlines...” (21:06)

• On Sensory Shopping:
  “I’m always sold on a sensory moment and I’m always looking at, how does this make me feel?” (21:46)

• On Cosmetic Industry Realities:
  “Formulas are really not expensive to make… what you’re really buying… is the markup, the marketing cost, the packaging costs...” (23:14–23:17)

• On Science and Social Media:
  “That’s the thing about science is like, it’s never like 100. It’s always evolving and changing... That's why... scientists like to get into it with each other sometimes.” (28:33, 45:43)

• On Emptied Products:
  “It's surprisingly like TheraBreath mouthwash... But skincare ... Jon Aqua Fresh, the relief sun. That for me, it's like I always run late to things. I just throw one product on my face, have it do 17 things.” (47:25)

• On Save or Splurge (Rapid Fire Game, 48:22–50:13):

  • Cleanser: Save
  • Peptide Serum: “Usually splurge...if the delivery system is there and efficacy is proven.”
  • Eye Cream: Save (fave: Kiehl’s Avocado/Haruharu gel)
  • Sunscreen: Always save — “Should not be that expensive.”
  • Acne treatment: Save — “You don’t have to spend a lot.”
  • Moisturizer: Save — “Most subjective product... what you like and want.”
    (48:22–50:13)

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Sunscreen Science: A Deep Dive

• New Filters and the Drama (34:09–37:56):

  • The US soon to approve bemotrizinol (Tinosorb S/Parsol Shield), a major advancement for non-mineral/“clean” sunscreens with a better skin feel, less white cast.
  • “Hopefully it’s going to make formulas more elegant... going to be Grace certified... which means the clean beauty people are going to be fine with us using Tinosorb S” (34:23)

• SPF Formulation Challenges (35:02–36:32):

  • Formulating high-SPF mineral sunscreens is technically tough; color inclusivity remains a major challenge due to regulatory ingredient restrictions (e.g., ultramarine blue not allowed in OTC drugs).
  • Recent SPF scandals and the move toward independent 3rd-party and international lab testing.

• On Avobenzone Safety (37:56–41:11):

  • Recent FDA-mandated studies show commonly-used chemical filters (avobenzone, octocrylene, etc.) are “proven safe” with negligible toxicity or hormonal activity despite previous regulatory alarm.
  • “...[those filters] were shown to have negligible absorption, no toxicity... all proven safe... If we just have the receipts... we encourage you to use them.” (38:15)

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Industry Insights & Challenges

• Innovation is Hard, Money is Tight (43:47–44:50):

  • Chemists often act as executioners for brand visions, with little power over what hits the market—innovation is difficult.
  • Salary reality check: “Chemists don’t get paid very well.” Many peers leave for ingredient sales or create content instead.

• Online Friction: Chemists vs. Influencers vs. Estheticians (45:43–46:58):

  • “Until you have been in a lab... that limits your ability to talk in certain situations or opine on certain things... There’s theory, then there’s practical experience.” (46:03)

• Diversity Needed in Cosmetic Chemistry (44:54–45:25):

  • Ramón’s advocacy for more diversity and transparency in cosmetic science:
    “I think what’s more unique for my content compared to the other chemists is, it actually was more of like, an activism thing—an outreach. We need young people. We need fresh faces, we need more diversity in the industry.” (45:17–45:25)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 11:24 – Ramón’s personal journey into beauty
• 12:06 – Formulator vs. Chemist: what’s the difference?
• 14:33 – Setting sprays and alcohol misconceptions
• 16:54 – Where cosmetic innovations come from
• 19:12 – Growth factors, exosomes, and the truth about “medical” ingredients
• 21:25 – How Ramón reads (and shops) ingredient lists
• 23:14 – Product pricing: what are we actually paying for?
• 24:55 – Actives vs. functionals, and regulatory fine print
• 29:38 – Ingredients: when does cost make sense?
• 32:29 – Ingredient hot takes: overrated and underrated
• 34:09 – Cutting-edge sunscreen filters and industry drama
• 38:15 – Avobenzone and sunscreen chemical safety
• 43:47 – Innovation, salaries, and chemists’ role in the industry
• 45:25 – Diversity and outreach in cosmetic science
• 46:02 – Friction in the beauty expert online world
• 48:22 – Save or Splurge rapid-fire (peptides, eye cream, sunscreen, etc.)
• 50:13 – Final recommendations and where to follow Ramón

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Conclusion

This episode is a must-listen for beauty lovers who want to sharpen their critical eye and shop smarter — without the jargon or confusion. Ramón brings wit, transparency, and deep knowledge, debunking ingredient myths, explaining why some products are pricey, and sharing honest opinions on what’s worth your money. If you want to think and shop like a cosmetic chemist, this is your gold-standard beauty podcast episode.

Find Ramón (“Glow by Ramón”) on TikTok, YouTube, and Instagram for more content that makes science approachable and fun.

Transcript

[A]

The following podcast is a dear media production. Welcome to Breaking Beauty the podcast, all about the breakthrough people, products and moments in beauty.

[B]

We're your hosts, Jill Dunn and Carlene Higgins. Welcome back to Breaking Beauty Podcast, everyone. Of course, this is the show all about the breakthrough people, products and moments in beauty. I'm Jill Dunn, one of your co hosts, sitting here alongside my pod wife, life, Carlene Higgins. So, Carlene, of course, we're two longtime magazine beauty editors turn beauty podcasters and we're in your feeds each and every Wednesday. And before we get into today's episode, we just have to do a little PSA because there's a lot going on around here. Yes.

[A]

We are doing a couple of live events. Yes. And that's so exciting. It's been a minute. We're doing not just one, we're doing two.

[B]

Yes. Basically back to back. Yeah.

[A]

One will take place in Toronto, our hometown, and one of them's in Brooklyn.

[B]

Yeah. Of course, it wouldn't be a live podcast event if we didn't have our audience join us. The one in Brooklyn is on March 2nd. We can reveal that. And the one in Toronto is on March 5th. Stay tuned to our Instagram so you can find out details on how to rsvp. There's going to be swag bags. Great conversations and being together. It's just the best.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

Love that. And we talk to the best people in the beauty industry. We are so lucky. Going into our ninth year, we speak to a lot of amazing founders, dermatologists, estheticians, and cosmetic chemists.

[B]

That is our epic guest today. It is Ramon Pagan and He has nearly 350,000 followers across social media. Carlene. So that's TikTok, Instagram, YouTube. And his audience really knows him best as Glow by Ramon, because he's taking you behind the scenes. Yes. Opening up that lab coat and letting us know what goes into a formulation, whether it be skincare makeup. And he's just a huge, passionate beauty buff himself. Yes, absolutely.

[A]

And the skin was glowing.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And I have to say now that I'm a beauty founder as well. Cassatt Beauty. That's Beauty 15 for your. For your code, guys. I have an extra special interest in chemistry, I feel like, because in the process of developing skin care, I just have more pointed questions. Yeah. So I love speaking to chemists and I love that everybody's going to get a taste of how to think like and how to shop like a cosmetic.

[B]

Chemist in today's episode. And. And I'm pret picky about having chemists on the show because chemistry wasn't my best class in school, I'm going to be honest. So sometimes I, like, I can get a little distracted or a little, like I'm not all the way tuned in, but the way that he is able to communicate.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

About chemistry. I'm interested. I'm listening. Yeah.

[A]

It's for the people.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

But before we get into our chat, we have a fun little game.

[B]

Yes. This portion of the episode is brought to you in partnership with our friends at Sephora and fun fact. And this is completely coincidental, everybody. Our guest today used to work on the floor at Sephora.

[A]

Yeah, I know, it's amazing. I feel like that's just a whole other level of experience right there When I walk into a Sephora. I love. I don't know if you do this, Jill, but like, I drill them, I like, I like, test them, but I just find they know so much because there are so many brands under one roof. Not just not to sound like an ad, but it's like they have to know a little bit about all the brands. I'm always just like, what's the best this, what's the best that? What's selling out over here? I love, I love our little chats.

[B]

They're very knowledgeable, the beauty advisors, because they are getting training and I can imagine if you are a cosmetic chemist or have an interest in that, as a young person, working at Sephora is kind of like your dream job. And, you know, no matter what your skin type, they have you covered. So now on to the game. Yes. And, Carlene, I'm putting you not really on the hot seat today, but kind of the lukewarm.

[A]

If you're ready to put me on the hot seat, I'm ready.

[B]

And you know, I'm obsessed with reality tv and specifically right now, my obsession is the show Traders. Have you seen it?

[A]

I have not, but I. I know I've seen little clips on Social.

[B]

Okay. It's a reality competition show that's on tv. It's kind of like a game of clue.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Trying to figure out in the group of 20 plus people who's a faithful. Who's faithful to the group and who is a traitor who's trying to deceive, who's the mole, who's trying to, you know, wreck the game and deceive everybody from the inside out and they want to take home the prize money. So that's the premise.

[A]

Okay. I'm going to get my poker face on.

[B]

Yeah. And it always Takes place in some grand setting like a Scottish castle or like a Quebec manor or something. They have them all over the world. And so in this little game I created, you have to respond, Carlene, with whether the habit I'm describing is traitorous to your skin or faithful to your skin.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So does that make sense?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay, let's go. Okay. All right, so skin cycling your retinols is a smart strategy to tackle fine lines and wrinkles. Carlene, is this habit faithful to your skin or treacherous?

[A]

Okay, I'm going to say faithful.

[B]

Okay. Ding, ding, ding.

[A]

All the way.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I do this myself. I love cycling. I just keep it really simple. So I do one night of actives, one night rest. One night actives, one night rest. And I don't see any flaws with that.

[B]

I think you're exactly right, because we know with retinol, it's all about the consistency.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So you need to get on the routine that you can tolerate.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And at. At Sephora, they have so many retinols and retinol alternatives. Brands like Tatcha of. Yeah. Caudalie, of course.

[A]

Shani Darden. I love that one.

[B]

Oh, yeah. They have in Beauty project and also Innisfree as well. So they've got you covered with the skin cycling with the retinols. Highly recommend.

[A]

All right, what's next? Jill?

[B]

Hit me. Okay, so exfoliating every day is always a good idea for your skin texture. Carlene, is this a habit that's faithful to your skin or treacherous?

[A]

Okay, well, I'm a sensitive skin girly. I'm gonna say that up front, but I think a lot of people have sensitized skin as well, so I'm gonna go with traitorous.

[B]

Ding, ding, ding, ding. You got that right.

[A]

I think this can hurt your barrier. Do it. Exfoliating every day can hurt your barrier.

[B]

Okay, so it really depends on your skin type. You know, for those that are oilier skin, maybe you can tolerate it every day. But even that, you gotta listen to your skin. So if your skin's like myself, I'm oily skin. I can tolerate, like the Dermalogica daily microfoliant every day.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And I can tolerate the Sophie PA mandelic acid serum every day.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But maybe something like the Paula's Choice BHA exfoliating liquid. I would. I wouldn't do that every day.

[A]

Yeah, totally. And even the Dermalogica, I know they have a milky microfoliant.

[B]

Milk foliant.

[A]

Milk foliant. And that's ideal for more sensitive skin.

[B]

So.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

It depends on the product, depends on your skin.

[B]

And I know a lot of people love the brand Edam as well and I wanted to shout them out because they're bipoc founded and I know we want to support a lot of diverse brands. So I love that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

All right, on to the next statement. Ceramides and glycerin. Are these ingredients faithful or treacherous to your skin's hydration? Carlene, Ceramides.

[A]

And what was the other one?

[B]

Glycerin.

[A]

Oh, I mean they are faithful.

[B]

True. Did I make this too easy, you guys?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Maybe I made it too easy for you.

[A]

Yes. This is like a lifelong. These are lifelong ingredients. You think about your skin barrier as the walls of the castle.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And the ceramides fill in those gaps between the stones.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And the mortar. The mortar if you will. And the glycerin, I mean. Yes. That's just the best humectant ever.

[B]

It. It really is. And they're preventing that trans epidermal water loss. I know that the road glazing milk has ceramides in there. It's so good.

[A]

Use it all the time.

[B]

The summer Fridays they have their new cloud dew gel cream moisturizer which I like as an oily skin person. That has glycerin. Of course. How many times have we talked about that? Astura Autobio 365 Cream.

[A]

That's an easy hit.

[B]

That's K Beauty. So good. Chock full of ceramides And Carlene, I know you're a huge fan of dew skin.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

What's the one you like from them?

[A]

I like the Instant Angel. That's the one. I love to travel with that. I travel with that and my road glazing milk.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And just the combination, that one, two layering, it's perfect.

[B]

And yeah, that one you mentioned, the do skin is like brimming with glycerin and ceramide. So that amazing final question, Carlene, so far you're doing very well, I must say. It takes at least six months to fix your skin's barrier. Carlene, is this statement faithful to your skin, AKA true or is it traitorous? AKA false?

[A]

Okay, I am not a dermatologist, but I am going to guess that it is traitorous.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

I think it's a lie because I know that your skin cells turn over every 30 days. So I feel like you should be able to repair your barrier in that amount of time as well.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

I don't know the exact time, but definitely with the right barrier care. You don't have to wait six months.

[C]

Got it.

[B]

So a couple favorites are the Tower 28. They have their SOS barrier redness recovery moisturizer, which is really good for soothing Dr. Jart. They have the Saramiden line. Both you and I have talked about that so many times.

[A]

I use that all the time.

[B]

I always just say that's the one with the yellow. Yeah, yellow cap. And then experiment is a skincare line developed by chemists, and they have their cult fave supersaturated serum. And that's all about barrier protection as well. Okay.

[A]

Need to try.

[B]

Okay. Well, Carlene, the game is over. You are still in my castle. You have not been banished from my vanity.

[C]

Oh, good.

[B]

And in a world of skincare traders, everybody trust only the experts. And of course, Sephora is the trusted destination for all things skin care. And thank you to Sephora for partnering with us. And they're going to remain faithful to your skin goals, Carlene.

[A]

And if you want to know more about the products we shared from top brands like Summer Fridays, Rhode laneige, Caudalie, you can shop skincare at Sephora. And now onto our conversation with cosmetic chemists Ramon, which you can also watch on our YouTube channel.

[D]

Hi, I'm Corey Karine, hosting creator of the Intersect, a new show that breaks down the rise and roll of AI in our lives. In each episode, I talk to bold thinkers, builders and leaders about how this technology is shaping our everyday experiences from work and well being to communication and decision making. And after 25 years as a journalist and media executive, I'm here to help you make sense of this moment. If you're curious about what AI is, what it means for you, or how to start using it, tune in every Thursday wherever you get your podcasts.

[B]

So exciting that you are here. You are glowing, by the way.

[C]

Thank you. Yes, it's sweat from running through the city. Was not my best friend today.

[B]

No. I need to know the lip product you're wearing because I noticed it immediately.

[C]

So it's really funny is it's just software by experiment. But anywhere I go, I always get stopped and asked, what's on your lips? Like, I've had waitresses stop mid order taking to be like, what lip product are you wearing?

[B]

Okay.

[A]

There's so many facets to what you do. Like we mentioned. So how did you get into beauty.

[C]

For a lot of the skincare people in the industry, I feel like a lot of us get into it because we have our own skin concerns or skin problems. It was really bad acne. Really bad acne.

[A]

And you would never know.

[C]

Thankfully, I'm very grateful that I was able to keep really good skin texture. And, I mean, I am wearing makeup right now, and I get breakouts still every other month. But it really comes down to, okay, what. What's potentially causing this? Oh, what ingredients are good for this? Oh, what do these ingredients do? How do they work? And it was like this snowball effect into wanting to then make products. And before the skincare concern part is actually just makeup, I'd use makeup to cover it up, but that's such a superficial solution. So it was that which then became a deep dive. And here we are, like, 10 years later.

[A]

Wow. And for people who don't know what's the difference between a product formulator and a cosmetic chemist, there has to be.

[C]

Like, a technical definition. But for me, a product formulator is you have the capabilities of being in a lab, but I just give you a formula and I'm like, just make this a cosmetic chemist. And I've actually talked to a few other chemists about this because there's a. A debate as to what really qualifies you as a cosmetic chemist, because a lot of us have had really different paths to get into the industry. And I think for a cosmetic chemist, it's a really good foundational chemistry understanding, so that if you need to troubleshoot in the lab, you're able to do so a lot more quickly and a lot more easily. So it's like, oh, why is my emulsion separating? Let me, like, look at the emulsifier. Try to understand both phases. And how do I make this a lot more compatible, how to make the formula more efficient? People say, like, oh, you need a proper chemistry background. One of the best cosmetic chemists I knew, he. I did my interning in Germany. There you don't have to have degrees. You can just apprentice your way into the industry. So he'd been doing it for 25 years, had no degree, but I'd be like, ugh, I'm trying to make this setting spray, but the shimmer keeps settling down. He's like, oh, use this at this percent. It'll disperse everything evenly without affecting the viscosity. Like, he just had this knowledge. So I think it's in my head less a qualification thing and more just an ability to understand the intricacies, to troubleshoot.

[B]

So would you say a product formulator is maybe somebody more where you could, like, give them the recipe directing and they can do the exact. They can execute on a recipe really well, which is correct.

[C]

But I mean, you can give anyone who's not a baker a recipe and hopefully they like, figure it out.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

And there is maybe a little bit more intricacy of like, you can understand the general concept of things. Like, I understand if I'm using this much butter and oil for a lotion, I just need this much emulsifier. It should be good. It'd be fine.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

But especially trying to be a little bit more innovative. I think that's where like the chemistry thing really comes in. Correct.

[A]

I feel like we're gonna go off course so many times. We're gonna have so many meanderings in this conversation, and I'm gonna love every minute of it. One of the questions I already have for you because you mentioned setting spray is say, beauty just came out with their setting spray and it's alcohol free. And they were like, okay, this is like the way they positioned it is. It's going to be like one of the first clean quote unquote. I know, I see the little smile coming. Setting sprays, aren't they like, do they all contain alcohol? I was surprised to hear that. I was like, is that really a new thing that there are alcohol free setting sprays?

[C]

No. And a lot of setting sprays don't feature alcohol. In my head, it's very rare to see one with alcohol.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

Some of the heavy duty, like fixative ones, like Makeup forever, and don't quote me, but I think one size, they feature it and alcohol is just useful for solubilizing things. But also it's volatile. It evaporates off. Yeah. So that sometimes it's utilized to include more robust film formers or a higher concentration, but it flashes off. So it really allows things to set. But so many really popular ones don't feature any alcohol at all. I'm trying to think I'm using a Korean one today. But like Fenty setting spray, I don't know about the urban decay all nighter.

[A]

Okay, well, that's good to know. So we don't need to be afraid that there's alcohol that is going to dry out our skin with setting sprays.

[C]

No. And I mean, that's the last step of your makeup routine. You probably have like 15 layers on underneath that. And I'm very pro alcohol in a lot of products. I have oily skin, so it just makes things a little bit more lightweight. It can make things feel more cooling on the skin.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

But again, it flashes off so quick. The concern to me is minimal, if like non existent at all. Okay.

[A]

Even with skin care or wet.

[C]

Yeah. Correct. Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

Okay, that's. Well, that's kind of new to hear because normally what we hear is you do not want any alcohol in your.

[C]

Skincare unless you're really sensitive to it. And that's my mantra for most things. Unless it's going to be a problem specifically for you, it's not bad.

[B]

Yeah. It's safe.

[C]

Correct. Yeah. And that's why it's been used for so long. I know like from, I know like Paula's choice. That's like one of their big things is we don't do any alcohol. Paula, she was really anti ethanol in products from. Again, she's a skin professional. That's her journey. Yeah. It's interesting, say I like some of their products, but they are very positioned in that clean beauty sector of things. Of course you want to tell a specific story to sell your brand.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

But no, like a lot of other setting sprays like Milani Make It Make It Last, the matte one, that's one of my favorites. Alcohol free.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Okay. Okay.

[A]

And probably a lot less expensive.

[B]

In your work as a cosmetic chemist, where do, where does new tech or new ingredients come from? Because I've read before that many ingredients are kind of inspired by breakthroughs in medicine or pharma or biotech and then they almost like can't use them or they're, they're thinking they may not have an application that they initially intended and then thought, well, who can we sell this to? Let's sell it to the beauty industry. So I'm just wondering if that is accurate or where do new ingredients come from?

[C]

One of my favorite things about being in the cosmetic industry and again my background is academics, so I came into this from a cosmetic science degree standpoint. Bachelor semester's is so many concepts, so many practices. So much in ingredient innovation is actually borrowed from other indust. Going back to setting sprays, the primary film formers are borrowed from I believe like Paint Street. So many of the analytical testing methods and practices are from the food industry material science industry. Some things do come from medicine or biotech. So we pull from a lot of different industries, food science as well. But we have these trade shows for ingredients. One of the big ones is called in cosmetics and that's based in Europe. In New York we do suppliers day. And that's where the ingredient suppliers will come and be like, here's what's new. A lot of the innovation I'm seeing, again the practices are borrowed from other industries, but I see a lot of people leaning into Natural things upcycling are by products of other industries. For example, cellulose is becoming a really popular byproduct and that's borrowed from the paper industry. So it's like we have all this stuff. Are we going to get rid of.

[B]

It or will we refine it and use it?

[C]

We can do so many things with that. And so what does cellulose do on.

[B]

The skin or in makeup?

[C]

Cellulose is a component of, like, natural materials. And based off how you refine or work, work it, I guess you can get different materials. My master's was done on a compound called lignin. And lignin is also a byproduct of, like, leaves. And lignin has a lot of natural benefits, but cosmetically it also is like a very natural newly. Like, people are trying to figure out what we can do with it in cosmetics. So that's one example.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

Another one is, oh, we get rosehip oil from this thing. Well, we have all this byproduct after getting the oil. Oh, this company called Ashton was like, oh, we can, like get like bioretinol from it, basically. So things like that. Interesting is what I'm seeing a lot of.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, even if you go back to something as simple as Vaseline and like, or don't like it, whatever, but it is a byproduct of the oil industry that has been refined and they're like, it's great for skin barrier and like, every dermatologist will still tell you that. And some people like to form, formulate with it, some don't.

[C]

I do. And again, Vaseline, super safe Petrolatum. We're big petrolatum stands.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I have a question. So when you see these ingredients like, that are coming from the medical industry, like exosomes, or we're seeing a lot of, like, upcycled bovine proteins. And the company that we interviewed, and they were getting growth factors from blood banks. So what do you make of this when you bottle it?

[C]

Are.

[A]

Are we actually getting any kind of major effect or is it a little bit of a stretch?

[C]

I feel like people see, oh, if you inject it and get this material dermally into the skin, you have all these benefits. Topically, you most likely are not going to see a lot of the same benefits. Exosomes is like a really. Yeah, gray area. My thinking process for a lot of things is I don't care, therefore I'm not going to put energy into that. Exosomes is just not a focus of mine. So I don't know a lot about it necessarily. I always direct people to like other friends of mine. But like I've seen a lot of controversy around exosomes and the viability of them, especially post manufacturing. Are you ensuring that the viability. Yeah. Are they still there? Are they still able to do what they're going to do? Growth factors is an interesting one. I feel like there's more data on that and we're seeing like, okay, they could potentially do something, especially considering more novel like delivery systems. But basically my whole thought process is in a finalized product that you as a consumer are getting, is that ingredient still viable and is it able to get to where it needs to get to do what it needs to do? And a lot of times that's not always the case. But for example, PDRN injected has the benefit for like collagen, all that topically it could still have benefits around like soothing the skin. So like inflammaging. So you're getting the anti aging from a different direction. Maybe. Yeah. It's like a lot of buzzwords and a lot of, a lot of miracles people are trying to sell. But also as biological materials, there's still other potential benefits with a topical application as well.

[B]

Right.

[C]

You still have like amino acids and proteins.

[B]

They're just maybe not as like sexy to talk about. Like exosomes are like more sexy to talk about right now. Right. So they get a lot of the headlines and the.

[C]

And even with that, are they bovine sourced or are they plant source? And the plant source, as more ethical as that is, it's like the data for that is just not that they're the same way it is for animal sourced.

[B]

Yeah, Complicated. Let's talk more specifically about ingredients and what your trick is to reading an inky list like a pro. Like I noticed in your content, like you are shopping, you're out there shopping for skincare. You're looking, you're being a consumer as well as making all this cool stuff. What do you look for? What are the red flags and green flags like on an inkey list or a label?

[C]

What's so funny is I am, I am fundamentally a consumer. You're so correct about the. I love seeing what's new, what's out there. I was at a Sephora in Dallas. I spent two hours walking around to the point where I think all the employees were like, what is this kid doing here? Like security was following me heavy. And I'm like, yeah, it's okay. And I'm always sold on a sensory moment and I'M always looking at, how does this make me? How does it make me feel? How does it feel to apply it? How does it feel on the skin? Does it smell good? And then beyond that, I start looking at the benefits and what they're trying to sell you on. And at the end of the day, a moisturizer is going to moisturize. No matter how you put it, it's going to increase hydration barrier. Like, no one is revolution revolutionizing a moisturizer. So some of those claims do get outlandish. And then that's when I start looking at the price point. And I'm like, $120 for this, for no reason.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

I'm not gonna name a name, but I had a friend send me a brand and it was like this derm brand that just launched, $230 trying to sell you this miracle. But all the claims are literally, this is a moisturizer. And also, like, as much as some people want to be like, oh, it's like a patented ingredient, it's not hard to patent things. I'm so sorry.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

So that's what I always look at is what are the claims people are trying to make.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And then what price are they trying to sell it at? But what sells me is just, does this feel good?

[B]

I do want to touch on something you said which is about, which is what we get asked all the time. Like, what makes a formulation worth a certain price point? We get asked a lot about the difference between drugstore, medical grade, luxury, and like, is the higher price point ever justified?

[C]

It really depends to me, coming from this side of things, formulas are really not expensive to make. If you're. I'm trying to think of how to word this. Like, fundamentally, like, if you're looking at how much a product costs to just manufacture, we're not looking at more than a dollar, $2, maybe higher price point. If manufacturing is like really intricate or a specific active is just really expensive. So what you're really buying then is like the markup, the marketing cost, the packaging costs, the, again, the miracle, the story they're trying to sell to you. So products aren't expensive and that's why certain price points I can't justify a lot of times. But then where it really hits home for me is then what are they doing behind just selling and marketing the product? And that's where like the clinicals come in. Clinical trials are really expensive.

[A]

Yes. Yeah.

[C]

And so like, I have a lot of indie friends who they've launched brands and I'm like, this product is so expensive. And like, in my opinion, I'm like, sometimes they're doing a little bit too much with the formulations. I'm like, this could have been simpler.

[B]

Right?

[C]

But that it's really. They spend a hundred, $200,000 on rounds of clinicals to verify claims, and therefore you have to recoup that cost. So that's where to me, the price point actually can make a difference.

[B]

That's a good point.

[A]

Yeah, so it's a good point. Raw material, but it still goes.

[B]

It's still going to formula. Yeah.

[C]

Packaging's also a big one. But want to do custom packaging or like, very unique packaging and that sort of things. Pat McGrath was a good example of that. Yeah, she did that lipstick where the bullet comes straight up and down, it doesn't twist. And that was a custom component for. For her.

[A]

Yeah, that's also like, the box for my product is also handmade. But anyway, that's another story. So we've talked about pricing. Now, what about what makes an active ingredient active versus a regular ingredient?

[C]

This is a question like, oh, that's a really good one. Where even on our end, it's like, how do you really justify this? Because functional ingredients are the ingredients that just make the product the product. We sometimes work off of something called like a chassis or like a base formulation. So, like, here's a very basic emulsion, and the idea is you have like the water, usually something to thicken up the water. We're talking like a regular, like lotion, for example. And then it's like, are the humectants part of that chassis? But in humectants, they kind of have an impact on formulation like propylene glycol. I think it's really good for stabilizing in freeze thaw stability. So, like, basically it makes sure that if your product has to go through really cold conditions, it's gonna still maintain stability. But propylene glycol is also humectant. So there is like a really weird gray area. You also have the primary components of the oil phase, the emulsifiers, and that's it. So then things beyond that that have a biological impact on the skin is where you start getting into like the active claim. So like humectants, as simple as they are, they are actives. They are okay treatment ingredients. Like, anything for brightening or textures, all that. Those are actives.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah. It's also tricky because it's like, that's an active ingredient, but technically, like Health Canada or probably the FDA wouldn't like that term. Because then it wouldn't be a cosmetic. Right.

[C]

I think the big thing is just drug claims. There's obviously things that are cosmetic ingredients and things that are drug ingredients. And like glycerin is an ingredient that is a cosmetic ingredient. At a certain percentage, you can then start claiming it's a skin protectant. Same thing with Vaseline or Petrolatum. So it's kind of like a concentration B, how you're trying to sell the product as well. This is where like the wording comes into play. Like treats, acne targets, blemishes, salicylic acid. 2% can do both. But that wording is what makes it the drug versus the cosmetic. Yeah. Which is the drug language, acne, if it's having a specific, like impact on a skin condition, a disease. So acne reduces pigmentation. That is the drug claim, improves the appearance of dark spots.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

There's a very clear definition of a cosmetic does this. And if you're selling as a cosmetic, you have to be really diligent about the wording. So I work with a lot of brands. Sephora has the most clear. You cannot say this, say this instead. And it literally has to be like the look of the appearance.

[B]

Right. Is hyaluronic acid an active ingredient?

[C]

I mean, technically, yeah, it's hydrating.

[B]

So any humectant? Any. What about an occlusive? Like lanolin or something?

[C]

Correct. But then it's like, especially for me, in my opinion, is lanolin active? I think it's a skin protectant. No. Yeah, but also it's lanolin's a really unique ingredient in that the structure of the actual like compound that it is also confers humectant benefits. But it's also like a functional ingredient. It low key, if I remember correctly. I haven't used it in this capacity, but like in my training, someone mentioned it can also to some degree work as an emulsifier.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

So that's where some oil phase ingredients, they function to stabilize an emulsion. They help to create or increase viscosity in a formulation that's functional. They're also great at like moisturizing, occluding. That's where it's like a. Is that an active or not?

[B]

Yeah, that is a real gray area. I've always wondered that because I'm just like, what are things that are just like, not necessarily stabilizing the formula, but just doing very basic things versus, like, to me, a vitamin C is an active because you see what it's doing.

[C]

On your face and that's a very clear. Like this is. Is helping to brighten. It's helped acne. It's helping with texture. That is an active. In the most, like, clear way.

[A]

Yeah. It's functional. Yeah. I guess on your skin versus just the formula. Maintaining the formula.

[C]

Yeah. Someone's gonna listen to this and be like, this kid is crazy.

[B]

No, but that's. That's the thing about science is like, it's never like 100. It's like it's could be this, it could be that. It's always evolving and changing. And that's why.

[A]

Well, I don't think scientists would probably there for. It's usually science is science. Right. It's just our interpretation of it.

[B]

They say that the definition of science is that you're basically always open to it changing and evolving and that it's never black and white.

[C]

We're always arguing with each other.

[B]

That's where it is. 100.

[C]

So, like, it could be this. This is because I had a big project where it was develop a project or develop a product. And this specific argument was one I had to have about. But it's doing this for the formulation. They're like, yeah, but it also does this for the skin. So therefore that's an active.

[A]

And I'm like, got it.

[B]

It.

[A]

Okay, we touched a nerve there. I'd like to know from you which ingredients are expensive, like genuinely expensive, and if they're worth it or not, and which ones are inexpensive. But some brands charge a lot for them. Do you know where I'm going with this?

[C]

I am. This gets really complicated. I think part of it comes down to how is the ingredient made or sourced.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

And that factors in a lot of the costs. Like, if it's coming from, like, a bioengineering company. We have a company that we use called Ran R A H N Ran Ron. They do a lot of, like, bioengineering. Actives are very expensive, but they also do a lot of like, clinical and testing to, like, show like, this is really cool, really fun. Look at all the benefits. And they are Swiss.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

So just that in itself makes it expensive.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And then now. Oh, this is why a lot of brand pricing had to go up this year is the import. A lot of things are not made here in the US or from European or Asian companies. So that factors into the pricing. And when it comes to, like, ingredients that are more expensive than they need to be, it gets really interesting because you start factoring in, like, delivery systems or other things. Not just the sourcing itself, but More so, like, complexes. Like is the big thing. You asked the question earlier. Like, you could inky. What do you see? You can't look at an ingredient and be like, oh, it's just that ingredient. Because actually, a lot of times it's part of a larger ingredient complex.

[B]

Yeah. You'll often hear that, like, peptide complex or what have you, and it can mean a lot of different things.

[C]

Yeah. Even with emulsifiers, you'd be like, I know that's an emulsifier, but I actually don't know if that company just bought that emulsifier as is, or it's part of a larger. Like, just throw this into your thing, and it'll perfectly emulsify. Because there's five emulsifiers in this ingredient complex. So that's when the pricing for things can go up some more. Yeah. So sometimes it's just, like, scarcity yield. If it's a natural plant extract, how that extract is sourced. Sourced.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

A lot of those factors come into play, so it's never, like, a clear answer.

[A]

Right.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

Is there any ingredient that you won't formulate with? Why or why not?

[C]

No. A, I work for brands, and therefore, I. I am just like the receiver. I am the one that makes it happen, because you as a brand are coming to me. So I'm just gonna do whatever it is that you like, and I'll try my best to, like, fulfill your vision. But also, B, like, there's just. I do this because I like it, and therefore, it's always fun to play with, like, any variety of ingredient categories of formulation. And C, there's nothing that's, like, inherently, like, bad or just, like, I'm over that. I won't formulate with it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What's the most underrated ingredient, in your opinion, that maybe needs to be. Be more beloved out there?

[C]

Lanolin.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

There's a lot. I feel like it's a lot of the simple ones people overlook. Glycerin's getting a moment now. Thankfully, glycerin's just a really amazing product by itself as a kind of supporting character in a lot of formulation. Like, fun fact, glycerin's used a lot in sunscreens, and just that increase in hydration helps to even out the, like, topical topography of the skin, which helps to get a more even film, thus increasing spf, for example. So, like, glycerin superstar. Okay. Yeah.

[A]

What about the, like, an overrated ingredient that you think's used a lot, and you're like, I don't know why this is a big deal.

[C]

Hyaluronic acid always comes to mind just because I think there's a lot more, a lot other ingredients that do better or that just tell a better story, in my opinion. So it's like hyaluronic acid hydrates, but I'm like, polyglutamic acid is right there. Ectoin is getting a moment, thankfully. And I'm like, that's such a great multifaceted ingredient.

[B]

What does that one do again?

[C]

Ectoin. It's like, it does a lot of things. It's like a skin protector slash humectant slash antioxidant. I believe you don't need a lot. Like a half percent gives you like, really, really good results. A lot of data supports it, even at that lower percentage.

[B]

What do you make of percentages being on the label? Like, I remember a few years ago this would be like a question. We got a lot in our DMs, like, what percent is the hyaluronic acid in the formula? Like, it was like the ordinary effect. What do you make of percentages on a label?

[C]

I mean, that's not your job to like, know, basically, people just. Because again, sometimes things come back to the complex. Like, okay, realistically, in a product, it might only have a really small percentage of that specific active. That's because it's part of a bigger complex where it is featured at that higher number. And that higher number ensures actual penetration or efficacy or whatever. So even though the Active itself is at a lower number, you're still getting a good benefit from that. Also, sometimes I always call it like the higher, faster, louder effect. Like people just want like high octane. And that can sometimes be a negative thing like irritation. And that irritation leads to other issues down the line. So I always tell people, just don't worry about that. Do you see the benefits you want from the product? Or like, they're not disclosing the percentage, but look at the clinicals that actually show efficacy. Yeah, worry about that. Just make sure the product does what it needs to do. You're getting the effect that you want from it. Don't worry about the numbers.

[A]

Are there any other ingredients that you're excited about right now?

[C]

Honestly, I've been like, in a really sunscreen specific space. Yeah, that's just like my main category. So right now it's just getting Bemt here in the US hopefully this year that's the trade name is Tinosorb S or it's going to be sold as Parcel Shield here. It's a broad spectrum filter. That's been used overseas for like 20, 30 years and we're just now getting it in the US so hopefully it's going to make. Well, I say hopefully, like I've not worked with hopefully it's going to make formulas more elegant. It's also going to be Grace certified, which by the FDA standards that's generally recognized as safe and effective. Which the only two filters that are currently grace are titanium and zinc mineral filters. So with that, hopefully that means the clean beauty people are going to be fine with us using Tinosorb s in mineral formulations, which that just means reduced white cas.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Oh, okay, great.

[B]

More elegant for sure.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Kind of going back to the. Obviously there was all this drama in the sunscreen space because, you know, the, the formulations were not living up to what it said on the label. And so maybe you can speak to that as well because I know that there's also like a 2.0 of the drama of like, who's responsible?

[C]

That's. I, funnily enough, I seen of this, but I'm just like, that's not my circus, not my monkeys right now. I know other creators like Lab Muffin, Hannah, English, they've done a lot of content specifically breaking this down and trying to really objectively give details on the situation. Formulating mineral sunscreens is not easy. I'll start there. And also on this end of things, you want to get a good SPF value. You also really want the consumer to have an enjoyable experience. And so when you start compromising those things or when you're trying to make compromise, to make both those things happen, that's where certain things can fall through. But fundamentally it's, it's. And this, we've seen this kind of issue happen a few times now. There was a big American company, AMA, they had a big scandal like what, 10, 15 years ago. Korean sunscreens had a big scandal about five years ago. And the Korean solution was they started doing two third party testing rounds in different markets. So one Korea, one Europe or one Europe, one somewhere else. So they're like, it's not us doing it, it's not even the manufacturer. We're going to two different third party companies. And look, we're getting these values. Aside from that, now we're seeing it with choice.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it does seem unfortunate, I would say, as like a brand founder, I don't have a sunscreen. But if you were to go get it tested and you can't reliably do that and like, how are you going to Audit that company to say, okay, well did you actually do your job? Right? Like, if you're paying them, it just seems like they should do what you paid them to do contractually, period.

[C]

And I wonder, again, just getting to the US now and coming from like, to me, I'm just like to send the testing overseas then we have a lot of things, have a lot of innovation has happened recently where again, if you're developing a sunscreen, you have a really reliable in vitro method now just to kind of get you a pre testing value. Okay. I can at least confirm it'll hopefully be about at a 50.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

So that takes a little bit of the risk of sunscreen developments out of your hands so that when you go through in vivo testing, you're a lot more sure.

[A]

Confident. Yeah.

[C]

I'm like, can you just like send it to Europe? It's a lot cheaper over there. Is it?

[B]

That's probably what will happen.

[C]

Spain does a lot of SPF testing. So that's like a lot of the Korean brands. They do around in Korea and around in Spain.

[A]

Yeah. Okay, interesting.

[C]

The one thing is just the way we do SPF here as an OTC versus as a cosmetic in other markets, that really affects a lot of the cost and a lot of the regulations and even just again, getting new filters approved.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. So I'm excited about that one.

[B]

Can we, can we ask you really quickly about Avobenzone? Because I saw that you shared a recent article that said that proved that Avobenzone now has, quote, negligible absorption, no toxicity or hormonal concerns. So what does that mean for sunscreen formulations going forward? Because you seem to be excited about this.

[C]

When you share, it's more. So we all know this. We all, we as in, like the internal people. Chemical sunscreens are some of the most scrutinized. But in that regard, those are still some of the most constantly reassessed for safety. And I just went to a big sunscreen conference in Orlando this summer where this is one of the presentations. Like, here are the top six most popular chemical sunscreens here. We've done reassessments. Here is the final verdict on these. Avobenzone was one of the six. And all of them, all of them. This is Avobenzone, this is octocrylene, homosalate, octisalate. All of them were shown to have negligible absorption, no toxicity, like, all proven safe. It's interesting that Avobenzone was the one that was giving the spotlight right now. But Avobenzone is just such a unique filter. It's internationally used because it is one of the best UVA1 absorbers. So for me it's just like if we just have the receipts and the insurance for people that these ingredients are safe and they're for such a special reason and therefore we encourage you to use them. I just, yeah, I love seeing that. I love people like knowing the products that they use are not going to cause harm. And sure, people, they don't know the testing that happens behind the scenes.

[A]

So this is like the answer to. A few years ago the FDA had issued a warning that further testing needed to happen with chemical sunscreens because according to them it was being absorbed into the bloodstream. But they had said what they don't know is whether that, whether it has any meaningful impact that could be harmful to you. Is that correct?

[C]

Basically, fundamentally it's like what that was, hey, we just need more documentation, more receipts. Just assure people. Because yeah, to your point, like there are concerns and there's some indication that this is happening. But it goes back to they were on the grace list and then they were taken off for that reason. And just to get back on that list is going to cost tens of millions of dollars. And all this time I think this year something got put through that could potentially allow them to consider non animal testing data for safety and toxicology. But yeah, basically it's just this is a step in that direction.

[A]

Yeah. So it's kind of like helping to close the loop on. On that question that was out there.

[C]

Correct. That's not going to say that Ava Benzo is going to be gray certified now. But it's just kind of like a. Hey look, it's safe. It is.

[A]

It's more like evidence that. Yeah.

[B]

What's that Taylor Swift quote though? This. It's like when something blows up, it's like every headline negative. Right. Like Ava Benzo and watch out. But it's like this news snore. No one's talking about it. It's like when the truth is revealed, it's really quiet was how Taylor puts it. And that is true.

[C]

It really is because the only people.

[B]

Sharing it were cosmetic chemists. You know.

[C]

And again it's just the.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Because of the role able Benzone plays and just a lot of unnecessary like fear behind it's like this is good news and that it reassures you. Like it's all good. Finally you can trust us. We've known this like we.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Been the ones to tell you but yeah.

[A]

But it's not making headlines, as Jill's saying, except for here on Breaking Beauty Podcast.

[B]

We got you, Boo.

[A]

What was the latest Eureka moment? Or what was one eureka moment that you had in the lab that you can share? Was there ever a time where you were like, you maybe you had a hypothesis and you're like, what if I did this and this? And it was like, wow. I'm thinking, do you ever blow yourself away?

[C]

Well, sometimes you make something, you're like, oh, wow, I did that.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[C]

For me, I can't think of, like, the latest one, but, like, I remember when I was first. So my big thing, like you mentioned earlier, was the inclusivity thing. And I've always focused on color formulation and sunscreen formulation for deeper skin. And now we're a lot more like, oh, okay, this is a thing. But back then, it was still kind of new, and that was utilization of blue pigments to really create more warmth and more realistic skin tone undertones in the deeper range. But unfortunately, the main pigment to do so, ultramarine blue, you can't use an OTC drugs, which means in mineral sunscreens, tinted mineral sunscreens, you cannot use that blue pigment. Oh.

[A]

That's why you only see those limited. Limited universal shades and mineral.

[C]

Well, also, just because every time you do, anytime you launch a sunscreen, if there's multiple shades, each shade has to have its own testing done. So that's one thing. We could do a whole episode talking about this basically. Also, once you try to start making deeper shades of mineral sunscreens, a, you already have X percentage of mineral filters that you need for the spf. You need so much black to counteract that, and then that it does create more of a grayness, just as the white, the black, and then all the other iron oxides. Blue does a lot to actually bring it back, but you're just going against so much white.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

That then you have to actually in a full formula. What. In the lighter shades. But you'd only need this much iron oxides to make a pigment. In a deeper shade, you need to use a lot more just because you are using so much of the other shades.

[A]

And of course, you only have 100 to work with.

[C]

Literally. So when you're starting to, like, reduce all the other ingredients in the formulation.

[A]

And you can't, because it's a drug, you have to have the certain levels. Right.

[C]

Correct. Yeah.

[A]

So you just wreck. Like, for somebody with who's like a six on the Fitzpatrick, you would just recommend a chemical sunscreen that's going to.

[C]

Be the most, like, straightforward. No white cast. Also, some people have sensitivities. And there you. For. You have to. It's a very. Being a content creator is very hard. Like, the whole bean soup thing, where it's like, this works great for me. What about. For me.

[B]

Yeah, the. What about Isms.

[C]

Yes, everyone.

[B]

It's very difficult indeed.

[A]

What would you say is one of the biggest challenges in your industry as a cosmetic chemist that you think people aren't talking about enough as an insider.

[C]

In terms of challenge? I can't think of one off the top of my head. Frustrations a lot of us have, though, is just like, it's hard to be innovative, I guess. And for example, again, a lot of us don't have brands. Very few of, like, what? There's, like, a few brands now. But really, again, we're the conduit between someone who wants to make something and that product getting to the consumer. And in my opinion, just like a lot of people who have no business starting brands or making products are doing it. And it's kind of like a. Also, it's funny because chemists don't get paid very well. And that's actually one of the big things. I have students come up to me like, oh, I want to, like, become a cosmetic chemist. I'm like, do you enjoy being broke? Because unless you're getting high up in seniority and. Or working in specific sectors of this industry, I know people who worked in labs, and they're like, the pay was bad. So now I'm just the person that goes and sells ingredients because that actually makes money, right? Yeah, that's something that people don't talk about either. That's why it's like. Like, there's so few of us that do content now, but a lot of us chose or realized this was a good route. So now content's our main job, and we consult or formulate on the side unless we have our own brands.

[B]

Right. Would you say most of your time is spent making content now?

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

But thankfully, like, I get to record in the lab and, like, I. For content, for me, a big part of my platform. So going back to not. Besides just being in the lab, one of the other things. And I think what's more unique for my content compared to the other chemists is it actually was more of, like, an activism thing slash, an outreach. I really wanted to, like, inspire kids. Kids to pursue this and make it really transparent and visible of a career for them so that they could be like, oh, this is interesting. I like this concept. Let me look into this more. Because we need young people. Yeah, we need young people. We need fresh faces. We need more diversity in the industry.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I like that you make your content fun.

[C]

That's the goal.

[B]

It seems fun what you do. And that's why I really like watching it. It's not dry at all. Anyone. Everyone needs to go follow you.

[C]

They're the people that do the very dry. Very like this society.

[A]

I'm like, I mean, that's great for you.

[B]

That's fine too. Yeah, yeah, that's fine for you.

[A]

It's more approachable.

[B]

Can I ask you something? That's a bit of a hot topic because we talked earlier about how scientists, they like to get into it with each other sometimes. What do you make of the friction you'll see online with. Between cosmetic chemists or between a brand founder and cosmetic chemist and a esthetician? Like, you see it, you see it sometimes in the comment section going, correct.

[C]

All I'm going to say on this is that until you have been in a lab making a product, working with an MPD brief, you have seen a product go from ideation to market. I think that limits your ability to talk in certain situations or opine on certain things. It is one thing to know something theoretically per se, but in the actual practicality and the actual, like, physicality of doing it, it's very different. I always use an analogy of like, I don't know why on Facebook I got into like this weird sector of like, a lot of my, like, recommended posts were like flight simulator videos. Oh, and the comments being like, why did he do this technique for the landing? And blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, but have you ever flown a plane?

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Like, those are very different worlds.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

And it feels like that a lot of times people talking about things they don't know enough about and they're like, well, the. The research and the textbook say this. And I'm like, yeah, but like, actually, like, executing that in like a lab setting and making a product for consumers, it's a very different ballpark.

[B]

I need to ask you about a video that I that you uploaded recently. And it was all of your most emptied skincare products in 2025. It was the most thorough empties tea video I've ever seen. You even included how many times you emptied it and like, why you loved each product and There was like 10 products on the list and 12. Yeah. I was like, wow, this must have taken days on end for you. To film and record what is your most emptied product of all time.

[C]

It's surprisingly like their breath. Their breath. Mouthwash. The like, light blue one. Okay.

[B]

But skincare, sorry.

[C]

Thera breath. It's the beauty of Jon Aqua Fresh, the relief sun. That for me, it's like I always run late to things.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

I just throw one product on my face, have it do 17 things. And also I know it's gonna work under makeup. That's the one.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

So I think. And I think the number is actually higher. I just couldn't think of a specific.

[A]

The pink one or the green one?

[C]

That's the blue one or blue.

[A]

Blue one. Okay.

[C]

Yeah, that is. It's a Korean one.

[A]

That's right. Because they reformulated the North American one. Correct. Yeah, I don't love it as much.

[C]

I actually, first of all, sunscreen. That. That the cheapest sunscreen they have. And it's water resistant. That's a really cute one. But no, the one I emptied the most of was the Korean Aquafresh.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

I think I did six tubes of it is what I said in the video. But I think it was more in real life.

[A]

Wow.

[C]

Incredible.

[B]

Incredible.

[A]

All right, so really quickly, we're gonna do a rapid fire fun game with you. Save or splurge? Cosmetic chemist edition.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

Cleanser, Save or splurge?

[B]

Safe pipe serum, Save or splurge?

[C]

Depends, but usually splurge.

[B]

Okay. Eye cream, Save or splurge?

[A]

Wait, which one? We need to know what you.

[B]

Oh, yeah, I forgot to ask.

[C]

A lot of things are not as expensive as they should be or as they are. Again, this comes back to like, peptides are expensive. If the delivery system is there and the efficacy is proven. That's where I'm like. So I did a whole video talking about, like, peptides. I actually like, endorse support. And it's like Medicaid was on there. Educated mass was on there.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

But then you also have like the ordinary's growth factor serum. Very affordable. But yeah, like exfoliating retinoids. Those. They don't have to be so expensive. Yeah, that's where I'm like, don't.

[A]

Yeah, we love the Medicaid one.

[B]

So good. Eye cream, saver, splurge, save. What's your favorite?

[C]

This is a really loaded question because I don't use eye creams like that. So like, for example, Haru. Haru has like a really cheap, really affordable gel one. It's such a gorgeous texture.

[A]

We'll try and find it in LinkedIn.

[C]

Also, like the Kiehl's avocado one.

[B]

Oh, yeah. Classic.

[A]

Yeah. Body cream Save or splurge?

[C]

Save. I have a handful. Naturium's retinol 1. Vaseline Radiant X. That entire line is stunning.

[B]

Have you tried the cycler ones?

[C]

No. I've talked a lot about that brand. We can talk off after off camera. I haven't tried them yet. It's an interesting concept to me.

[B]

The smells are great.

[A]

It's nice.

[B]

I'm obsessed with one of their body lotions right now.

[A]

Yeah. I think from. If you're interested in like the experiential, how you feel instantaneously, I think you will really like that line.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah. Sunscreen save or splurge?

[C]

Always save. Yeah. Never splurged. Sunscreen should not be that expensive.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And we kind of covered this. But acne treatment, save or splurge?

[C]

Save. You don't. Yeah. Basically a lot of things are based off like very clinically effective ingredients. So you don't have to spend a lot. You don't have to spend a lot. Like Thayers, they have these little acne pads. $10. Amazing.

[A]

Okay, what about moisturizer?

[C]

I choose to say save that moisturizers and lip balms are some of the most subjective products when it comes to what people like and what they want. I've done like entire like, like market research and consumer surveys. That's where it gets really specific and particular. So it's. It's what you like, what you want. I say save.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Well, thank you so much for your time today and everybody. Check out this episode on YouTube which is breaking Beauty Podcast and follow Glow by Ramone on YouTube. Tick tock Instagram. Thank you.

[A]

Thank you. Thanks for listening. You can find details on every product mentioned in today's episode along with our exclusive promo codes on our blog @breaking beauty podcast.com.

[B]

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[A]

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[B]

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[A]

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[B]

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[A]

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