Breaking History: How North Korea Got the Nuke
Breaking History Episode Summary
Release Date: April 30, 2025
Host: Eli Lake
Guest: John Bolton

Introduction

In the episode titled "How North Korea Got the Nuke," Eli Lake delves into the intricate history and current state of North Korea's nuclear program. Drawing parallels with other nations like Iran and Libya, the discussion underscores the persistent threat posed by rogue states acquiring nuclear capabilities. The conversation features insights from John Bolton, a prominent figure in U.S. foreign policy, providing a deep analysis of North Korea's nuclear ambitions and the international community's responses.

The Genesis of the Nuclear Era

The episode begins with a historical overview of the advent of nuclear weapons, highlighting their profound impact on global warfare and geopolitics.

Eli Lake recalls President Harry Truman’s announcement of the first atomic bomb used in warfare:

“It is an atomic bomb. It is a harnessing of the basic power of the universe...”
[09:41]

Lake elaborates on the devastation of Hiroshima, emphasizing the unprecedented destruction and loss of life:

“Between 70 and 80,000 died instantly in the blast. Another 60 to 70,000 died because of severe burns and radiation poisoning.”
[10:00]

John Bolton adds context by explaining the Soviet Union’s entry into the nuclear club:

“We have evidence that within recent weeks an atomic explosion occurred in the USSR...”
[13:04]
This marked the beginning of the nuclear arms race, establishing a "balance of terror" that defined the Cold War era.

Expansion of Nuclear Powers and Non-Proliferation Efforts

The discussion transitions to the proliferation of nuclear weapons beyond the original five nations (U.S., USSR, UK, France, China), highlighting Israel's ambiguous stance.

Eli Lake notes:

“Israel has never acknowledged the possession of nuclear weapons. But it's widely believed the country began fielding its bombs...”
[15:50]

To curb further proliferation, the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT) was established, effectively limiting the nuclear arsenal to a select group of countries. The NPT was portrayed as a strategic compromise:

“If you promise not to build a bomb, we will share our technology for nuclear energy.”
[16:50]

North Korea’s Nuclear Ambitions: Leadership and Ideology

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to understanding North Korea's relentless pursuit of nuclear weapons, driven by the regime's desire for preservation and dominance.

Eli Lake provides a historical background on North Korea’s leadership:

“Kim Il Sung ... rose to become the first ruler of North Korea... technically, he still is that ruler, even after his death.”
[23:01]

John Bolton critiques the North Korean narrative, emphasizing the regime's fabricated history and oppressive governance:

“The North Koreans insist that the Japanese in Korea were defeated by the Korean Communist forces which never existed.”
[26:10]

The ideology of Juche, or self-reliance, is dissected to reveal its true nature as a facade for economic dependence and extreme governmental control:

“Juche ... is roughly translated as self-reliance. ... The reality, though, was that North Korea was a poorly run communist dystopia...”
[31:17]

International Responses and Policy Failures

The episode critically examines the various approaches taken by U.S. administrations to deter North Korea's nuclear ambitions, highlighting a series of policy missteps and missed opportunities.

John Bolton reflects on the Agreed Framework of 1994, labeling it a flawed deal:

“The agreed framework was intended to supply energy and light water reactors ... but North Korea was doing something completely separate and ... setting up uranium enrichment capabilities...”
[43:04]

Eli Lake discusses the repercussions of the Iraq War, which, despite its failures, inadvertently influenced other nations' nuclear strategies:

“The war did do one thing. It convinced two nations who had previously been interested in joining the nuclear club to reconsider.”
[44:27]

John Bolton contends that diplomatic efforts, including those under President Obama’s "strategic patience," were insufficient:

“North Korea is nuclear and will remain nuclear for the foreseeable future.”
[50:48]

North Korea’s Nuclear Arsenal and Current Threats

The conversation shifts to the present-day status of North Korea’s nuclear capabilities, underscoring the escalating threat level.

Eli Lake summarizes recent developments:

“North Korea is said to have as many as 70 nuclear weapons. And they keep getting better.”
[52:39]

John Bolton paints a grim picture of the regime’s unchecked nuclear expansion:

“You cannot have a country like this, which is completely off the charts with this nuclear arsenal ... without us having any clue of any safety or security measure which is being applied to it.”
[53:26]

The Psychological and Strategic Implications of Nuclear Weapons

The episode delves into the broader implications of nuclear armament by rogue states, emphasizing the psychological terror and strategic leverage these weapons confer.

Eli Lake articulates the dual nature of nuclear weapons as both deterrents and tools of psychological warfare:

“Nukes are not just a useful bit of blackmail. A nuclear deterrent in the hands of a madman is a weapon of psychological terror that enables actual terror.”
[56:44]

He further explores the potential future trajectory for Iran, cautioning against underestimating the allure of nuclear capabilities for regime survival:

“Why would any nation want to lift a finger for the survival of this Orwellian prison state if it couldn't threaten a mushroom cloud over Tokyo or Seoul?”
[06:10]

Conclusion: Lessons and Future Outlook

In wrapping up, Eli Lake emphasizes the critical need for proactive measures to prevent nuclear proliferation, especially in volatile regions.

Eli Lake warns against complacency and advocates for decisive action:

“Instead of negotiating another deal with the blackmailers, why not align with the Iranian patriots who despise them?”
[57:15]

The episode concludes with a call to prioritize the undermining of rogue regimes through bolstering internal legitimacy and supporting movements toward genuine democracy and freedom.

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• John Bolton on the inevitability of nuclear proliferation:

  “The fewer countries that have nuclear weapons, the better. Not because I don't trust our friends, but because I know how proliferation works.”
  [15:27]

• Eli Lake on the nature of North Korea’s nuclear program:

  “This is the prospect that a crazed tyrant acquires the means with which to destroy whole cities at the press of a button.”
  [06:10]

• John Bolton on strategic patience’s failure:

  “North Korea is nuclear and will remain nuclear for the foreseeable future.”
  [50:48]

• Eli Lake on the psychological terror of nuclear arms:

  “A nuclear deterrent in the hands of a madman is a weapon of psychological terror that enables actual terror.”
  [56:44]

Final Thoughts

"How North Korea Got the Nuke" presents a comprehensive exploration of the historical and contemporary challenges posed by nuclear-armed rogue states. Through the expert analysis of John Bolton and the insightful narrative of Eli Lake, the episode underscores the complexities of nuclear diplomacy and the urgent need for effective strategies to mitigate the existential threats these weapons pose to global security.

For listeners seeking a deeper understanding of nuclear proliferation and its implications for international relations, this episode offers valuable perspectives and critical reflections on past policies and future directions.