How North Korea Got the Nuke

Summary

Breaking History: How North Korea Got the Nuke
Breaking History Episode Summary
Release Date: April 30, 2025
Host: Eli Lake
Guest: John Bolton

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Introduction

In the episode titled "How North Korea Got the Nuke," Eli Lake delves into the intricate history and current state of North Korea's nuclear program. Drawing parallels with other nations like Iran and Libya, the discussion underscores the persistent threat posed by rogue states acquiring nuclear capabilities. The conversation features insights from John Bolton, a prominent figure in U.S. foreign policy, providing a deep analysis of North Korea's nuclear ambitions and the international community's responses.

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The Genesis of the Nuclear Era

The episode begins with a historical overview of the advent of nuclear weapons, highlighting their profound impact on global warfare and geopolitics.

Eli Lake recalls President Harry Truman’s announcement of the first atomic bomb used in warfare:

“It is an atomic bomb. It is a harnessing of the basic power of the universe...”
[09:41]

Lake elaborates on the devastation of Hiroshima, emphasizing the unprecedented destruction and loss of life:

“Between 70 and 80,000 died instantly in the blast. Another 60 to 70,000 died because of severe burns and radiation poisoning.”
[10:00]

John Bolton adds context by explaining the Soviet Union’s entry into the nuclear club:

“We have evidence that within recent weeks an atomic explosion occurred in the USSR...”
[13:04]
This marked the beginning of the nuclear arms race, establishing a "balance of terror" that defined the Cold War era.

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Expansion of Nuclear Powers and Non-Proliferation Efforts

The discussion transitions to the proliferation of nuclear weapons beyond the original five nations (U.S., USSR, UK, France, China), highlighting Israel's ambiguous stance.

Eli Lake notes:

“Israel has never acknowledged the possession of nuclear weapons. But it's widely believed the country began fielding its bombs...”
[15:50]

To curb further proliferation, the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT) was established, effectively limiting the nuclear arsenal to a select group of countries. The NPT was portrayed as a strategic compromise:

“If you promise not to build a bomb, we will share our technology for nuclear energy.”
[16:50]

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North Korea’s Nuclear Ambitions: Leadership and Ideology

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to understanding North Korea's relentless pursuit of nuclear weapons, driven by the regime's desire for preservation and dominance.

Eli Lake provides a historical background on North Korea’s leadership:

“Kim Il Sung ... rose to become the first ruler of North Korea... technically, he still is that ruler, even after his death.”
[23:01]

John Bolton critiques the North Korean narrative, emphasizing the regime's fabricated history and oppressive governance:

“The North Koreans insist that the Japanese in Korea were defeated by the Korean Communist forces which never existed.”
[26:10]

The ideology of Juche, or self-reliance, is dissected to reveal its true nature as a facade for economic dependence and extreme governmental control:

“Juche ... is roughly translated as self-reliance. ... The reality, though, was that North Korea was a poorly run communist dystopia...”
[31:17]

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International Responses and Policy Failures

The episode critically examines the various approaches taken by U.S. administrations to deter North Korea's nuclear ambitions, highlighting a series of policy missteps and missed opportunities.

John Bolton reflects on the Agreed Framework of 1994, labeling it a flawed deal:

“The agreed framework was intended to supply energy and light water reactors ... but North Korea was doing something completely separate and ... setting up uranium enrichment capabilities...”
[43:04]

Eli Lake discusses the repercussions of the Iraq War, which, despite its failures, inadvertently influenced other nations' nuclear strategies:

“The war did do one thing. It convinced two nations who had previously been interested in joining the nuclear club to reconsider.”
[44:27]

John Bolton contends that diplomatic efforts, including those under President Obama’s "strategic patience," were insufficient:

“North Korea is nuclear and will remain nuclear for the foreseeable future.”
[50:48]

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North Korea’s Nuclear Arsenal and Current Threats

The conversation shifts to the present-day status of North Korea’s nuclear capabilities, underscoring the escalating threat level.

Eli Lake summarizes recent developments:

“North Korea is said to have as many as 70 nuclear weapons. And they keep getting better.”
[52:39]

John Bolton paints a grim picture of the regime’s unchecked nuclear expansion:

“You cannot have a country like this, which is completely off the charts with this nuclear arsenal ... without us having any clue of any safety or security measure which is being applied to it.”
[53:26]

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The Psychological and Strategic Implications of Nuclear Weapons

The episode delves into the broader implications of nuclear armament by rogue states, emphasizing the psychological terror and strategic leverage these weapons confer.

Eli Lake articulates the dual nature of nuclear weapons as both deterrents and tools of psychological warfare:

“Nukes are not just a useful bit of blackmail. A nuclear deterrent in the hands of a madman is a weapon of psychological terror that enables actual terror.”
[56:44]

He further explores the potential future trajectory for Iran, cautioning against underestimating the allure of nuclear capabilities for regime survival:

“Why would any nation want to lift a finger for the survival of this Orwellian prison state if it couldn't threaten a mushroom cloud over Tokyo or Seoul?”
[06:10]

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Conclusion: Lessons and Future Outlook

In wrapping up, Eli Lake emphasizes the critical need for proactive measures to prevent nuclear proliferation, especially in volatile regions.

Eli Lake warns against complacency and advocates for decisive action:

“Instead of negotiating another deal with the blackmailers, why not align with the Iranian patriots who despise them?”
[57:15]

The episode concludes with a call to prioritize the undermining of rogue regimes through bolstering internal legitimacy and supporting movements toward genuine democracy and freedom.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• John Bolton on the inevitability of nuclear proliferation:

  “The fewer countries that have nuclear weapons, the better. Not because I don't trust our friends, but because I know how proliferation works.”
  [15:27]

• Eli Lake on the nature of North Korea’s nuclear program:

  “This is the prospect that a crazed tyrant acquires the means with which to destroy whole cities at the press of a button.”
  [06:10]

• John Bolton on strategic patience’s failure:

  “North Korea is nuclear and will remain nuclear for the foreseeable future.”
  [50:48]

• Eli Lake on the psychological terror of nuclear arms:

  “A nuclear deterrent in the hands of a madman is a weapon of psychological terror that enables actual terror.”
  [56:44]

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Final Thoughts

"How North Korea Got the Nuke" presents a comprehensive exploration of the historical and contemporary challenges posed by nuclear-armed rogue states. Through the expert analysis of John Bolton and the insightful narrative of Eli Lake, the episode underscores the complexities of nuclear diplomacy and the urgent need for effective strategies to mitigate the existential threats these weapons pose to global security.

For listeners seeking a deeper understanding of nuclear proliferation and its implications for international relations, this episode offers valuable perspectives and critical reflections on past policies and future directions.

Transcript

[Eli Lake]

Donald Trump is trying to negotiate away Iran's nukes as the ayatollahs are perilously close to harnessing the atom's power on the tip of a missile. I hope he succeeds, but if the president fails, he wouldn't be the first POTUS to allow a rogue state to go nuclear. That would be George W. Bush and the rogue state in question, North Korea. Up next, why the world's worst fiends are so enamored with the world's most destructive weapons.

[John Bolton]

Lee Harvey Oz, Irving Berlin what happens.

[Eli Lake]

Once happens again when news of is a mystery.

[John Bolton]

Mystery.

[Eli Lake]

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[John Bolton]

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[Eli Lake]

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[John Bolton]

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[Eli Lake]

Here we go again.

[John Bolton]

They cannot have a nuclear weapon.

[Eli Lake]

Does that include a potential strike on Iranian nuclear facilities?

[John Bolton]

Of course it does. I think Iran could be a great country as long as it doesn't have nuclear weapons.

[Eli Lake]

I do not envy Donald Trump. He has to stop a gang of pious lunatics from acquiring apocalyptic weapons. The Iranians have never been this close.

[John Bolton]

Iranian state media reported Tuesday that the country has started producing 60% pure uranium at the underground Fordow nuclear plant, which.

[Eli Lake]

Is south of Tehran. And if they go nuclear, it's a cascade of horrors. Even if the Ailing Ayatollah Ali Khamenei doesn't launch a first strike at Israel or Saudi oil refineries. No guarantee an Iranian nuke would be an atomic umbrella for his regime's militias, statelets and terror cells from the Gulf to the Levant, a license for unbridled chaos. Preventing this catastrophe has animated the last four American presidents, from George W. Bush to Donald Trump. All of them have offered sticks and carrots to seduce or deter the mullahs from going nuclear. I mean, we've tried sanctions.

[John Bolton]

I'm pleased to sign into law the toughest sanctions against Iran ever passed by the United States Congress.

[Eli Lake]

We've tried censure.

[John Bolton]

Today, the United Nations Security Council voted overwhelmingly to sanction Iran for its continued failure to live up to its obligations.

[Eli Lake]

We've tried sabotage. Stuxnet is an exceptionally sophisticated computer worm that attacks the software used to control automated systems. Stuxnet's first target may have been Iran's nuclear facilities. We've tried bribery.

[John Bolton]

The Obama administration is still taking a whole lot of heat for a $400 million cash payment to Iran.

[Eli Lake]

Additional cash payments totaling $1.3 billion were made, as first reported by this morning's Wall Street Journal. We've tried diplomacy.

[John Bolton]

For the first time in a decade, we've halted the progress on Iran's nuclear program. We cannot close the door on diplomacy and we cannot rule out peaceful solutions to the world's problems.

[Eli Lake]

And then Trump came along and thought he'd try something else.

[John Bolton]

In theory, the so called Iran deal was supposed to protect the United States and our allies from the lunacy of an Iranian nuclear bomb, a weapon that will only endanger the survival of the Iranian regime. In fact, the deal allowed Iran to continue enriching uranium and over time reach the brink of a nuclear breakout.

[Eli Lake]

None of it has worked. Iran has slowly erected an industrial scale uranium enrichment network capable of fueling dozens of warheads. And just like Obama, Trump too is now signaling that he's willing to let Iran creep right up to the nuclear trigger.

[John Bolton]

Just hearing too much from inside the Trump foreign policy world.

[Eli Lake]

This is Free Press columnist and the Author of the 2016 History of Iranian Nuclear Diplomacy. Iran Wars.

[John Bolton]

J. Solomon, Vice President Vance Tulsi Gabbard at DNI. There are outside whispers from Donald Jr. To Tucker Carlson or just they're just pushing this line that we're going to unleash Armageddon and we don't. And America first is not. It's not in his interest to have a Middle east war. So they will come to some sort of agreement.

[Eli Lake]

And what would that agreement look like? Well, think of it like this. Iran gets to make the machines capable of making fuel for nuclear weapons. If it promises not to make nuclear weapons, it's not going to work. In fairness, Trump hasn't ruled out using force to take care of Iran's nuclear reactors. But this kind of problem. What if a lunatic gets nukes? Is a new version of a nightmare that has haunted America since the dawn of the atomic age. It's the prospect that a crazed tyrant acquires the means with which to destroy whole cities at the press of a button. What if a mad bastard had the bomb? Is the plot of at least half of the James Bond canon.

[John Bolton]

They have already been given their targets. Within minutes, New York and Moscow will cease to exist. Global destruction will follow. The new era will begin.

[Eli Lake]

It would be nice if these scenarios were only grist for 007's exploits, but it has actually happened before. A rogue state did acquire an apocalyptic arsenal nearly 20 years ago. It was the Democratic People's Republic of Korea. North Korea, a totalitarian relic, a murderous blend of Stalinist's cult of Personality and Dr. Evil Malevolence. In 2006, North Korea tested its first fission powered bomb and they've been perfecting them ever since. Frankly, we should probably be more worried about it than we are. I'm Eli Lake and you're listening to Breaking History. After the Break, how the hermit kingdom went nuclear and what it tells us about Iran's quest to do the same.

[John Bolton]

Thank you for the rations thank you for the words thank you for your passion how you lead our hurt thank you for the buildings towering above we are father's children Bask in your love Marine true believer Service of the leader Portraits of a family King of son is you and me.

[Eli Lake]

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[John Bolton]

It is an atomic bomb. It is a harnessing of the basic power of the universe. The force from which the sun draws its power has been loosed against those who brought war to the Far East.

[Eli Lake]

That was President Harry Truman announcing the dropping of the first atomic bomb in world history. The US military called it Little Boy and it was unleashed on Hiroshima on August 6, 1945. If you want to understand the destruction of a nuclear bomb, just look at Hiroshima. The bomb was detonated before it hit the ground. An explosion that turned the sky into fire. A 4.7 square mile area flattened. Just one bomb destroyed an entire city. Between 70 and 80,000 died instantly in the blast. Another 60 to 70,000 died because of severe burns and radiation poisoning. Until atomic weapons. The process of destroying a city took time. In World War II, Tokyo was devastated with fire bombs. But that took weeks of dangerous bombing sorties to accomplish what one bomb did to Hiroshima.

[John Bolton]

First record of the doom of Nagasaki, target by atom bomb number two is filmed from a super fortress many miles away.

[Eli Lake]

Nukes today, like hydrogen bombs, are hundreds of times more powerful. Atomic weapons changed warfare forever. As former National Security Advisor and Ambassador to the United Nations John Bolton explains.

[John Bolton]

The power of nuclear weapons and the destruction and death that they can cause far outweigh anything we've got in conventional weapons or ever likely to have. That's why it's called a weapon of mass destruction.

[Eli Lake]

When we dropped nukes on Japan, it forced Emperor Hirohito to surrender, avoiding a land invasion where hundreds of thousands of RGIs would have likely perished. But it also established the United States as the world's only nuclear power. It was the apex of American hegemony in the 20th century. Between 1945 and 1949, the USA created the United nations, the World bank, the International Monetary Fund, the global financial system, NATO, the CIA and the Marshall Plan. They were four glorious years for American dominance. And then, like many things in the 20th century, the Soviet Union had to go and ruin it. After World War II, the best scientists from Japan and Germany fled to America, maintaining our scientific and military superiority. But Moscow had one thing going for it. A very shrewd intelligence service. On their hunt for the bomb, the KGB unspooled a web of spies who stole America's nuclear secrets, ending our republic's nuclear monopoly. On August 29, 1949, the Soviets tested its first plutonium based bomb. At first the Russians kept it a secret, but a month later, President Truman announced it to the world.

[John Bolton]

I believe the American people, to the fullest extent consistent with national security, are entitled to be informed of all developments in the field of atomic energy. That is my reason for making public the following information. We have evidence that within recent weeks an atomic explosion occurred in the ussr. Ever since atomic energy was first released by man, the eventual development of this new force by other nations was to be expected. This probability has always been taken into account by us.

[Eli Lake]

And that was the real beginning of the nuclear era. America was no longer the only military to have harnessed the power of the A new balance of terror began. Our ideological rival possessed the same ability to bring forth Armageddon as we did. Over the next 15 years, the nuclear club expanded.

[John Bolton]

To Dr. Penny and his team, great credit is due for this mighty British achievement. The spectacular success of the operation furthers our hopes of peace. For it seems that by the possession of such deadly weapons, peace can be maintained in this troubled world.

[Eli Lake]

The United Kingdom got The bomb in 1952. France in 1960.

[John Bolton]

France moves ahead toward its goal of equal rank with Britain, Russia and America in the great powers nuclear club.

[Eli Lake]

Four years later, China followed. It is no coincidence that by 1964 the five nuclear powers also happened to be the five permanent veto wielding members of the United Nations Security Council. It was an elite group that had no interest in letting anyone else in. Because that's the thing about nuclear weapons. The more countries who possess them, the more likely it is they end up in the hands of a villain who wants to watch the world burn. Since then, American presidents have tried to dissuade other countries from chasing the mushroom cloud.

[John Bolton]

So for decades now, since the beginning of the Cold War, the US and others, but particularly the US have tried to limit the number of countries that have nuclear weapons on the very sound theory that the fewer countries that have nuclear weapons, the lower the danger that they'll actually be used and we'll have an outbreak of nuclear war.

[Eli Lake]

Here's John Bolton again.

[John Bolton]

That whole theory of non proliferation is now being challenged by people who say it's inevitable. But that was true 80 years ago too when we started this. So my view is that the fewer countries that have nuclear weapons, the better. Not because I don't trust our friends, but because I know how proliferation works. When one country gets it, it's an inspiration to other countries to get it.

[Eli Lake]

The big five nuclear club lasted for only two years. Israel has never acknowledged the possession of nuclear weapons. But it's widely believed the country began fielding its bombs sometime between the Beatles release of Revolver and but before Sergeant Pepper 1966 or 1967. To this day, Israel's diplomats and prime ministers speak in riddles when asked about their nukes. Their nuclear capacity is probably the worst kept secret in the world. To keep a lid on the inner demons of the nuclear curious nations, the U.S. the United Kingdom and the Soviet Union came up with a pretty good plan. The Nuclear Non Proliferation Treaty. It worked as a bribe. If you promise not to build a bomb, we will share our technology for nuclear energy. We will give your nation the power to build a big battery to run your electric grid, but nothing with which you can smite your enemies.

[John Bolton]

And so, Mr. Secretary, on this historic occasion, let us trust that we will look back and say that this was one of the first and major steps in that process in which the nations of the world moved from a period of confrontation to a period of negotiation and a period of lasting peace.

[Eli Lake]

Frankly, it's a great deal in 2025. It seems fantastical that anything as positive and considered would have ever been embraced. But it was. Over the next 25 years, nearly every country in the world ended up signing up. Pandora unleashed the evils of the world from her box. And having seen the damage they could do, the world calmly herded them back inside. But the story, of course, does not end in 1995. Two nations who had held out against the Nuclear Non Proliferation Treaty. Pakistan and India. Each terrified of the other. And both worked diligently for years on obtaining the ultimate deterrent. In May 1998, both countries decided to come out of the closet. India tested nukes on the 11th and the 13th. Pakistan followed with tests on the 28th and 30th. Mazel tov. So now there was an elite nuclear club of eight, if you count Israel, which didn't acknowledge their nukes. It wasn't great that some of those countries hated each other, but this order was largely more or less stable. The nightmare scenario was what would happen if a real madman got their hands on a nuke. You know, somebody like Iraq's Saddam Hussein or Libya's Muammar Gaddafi or Iran's Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, or North Korea's Kim Jong Il. Well, soon one of those crazy bastards was going to have their nuclear dreams fulfilled. After the break, how a basket case nation mastered the atom and terrified the world. Hey there, it's Eli. With a constant barrage of alarming headlines, wars, a warming planet and high stakes politics, it might feel like we're teetering on the edge, but the World contains a lot more good news than you hear on mainstream media. If you're looking for another show that questions the status quo, then I recommend what Could Go Right, the twice weekly news podcast hosted by Zachary Carabelle and Emma Varva Lucas, recently nominated for best Politics or Opinion Podcast at the Ambi Awards. What Could Go Right provides a balanced view of what's going on across the globe, even during difficult times. Each Wednesday they sit down with leading minds like best selling author John Green and environmental reporter Emily Atkin to discuss today's biggest challenges with nuance and insight. And on Fridays they highlight the latest progress reports from around the world, from life changing medical advancements to groundbreaking efforts to combat climate change. If you need a place to start, check out their recent episode with economics expert Matt Stoller, who breaks down the 100 year war between monopoly power and democracy. It's an enlightening conversation that's perfect for breaking history fans. So fight the urge to doom scroll. Tune in to what Could Go Right wherever you get your podcasts right. North Korea Jesus, what a mess. For decades, the entire planet has been looking over its shoulder at the isolated, strange country with a mixture of terror and grim fascination. Documentarians have thirsted over footage of its total weirdness. Humanitarians have sweated over the brutality and misery that civilians have to endure. Its neighbors in South Korea live in constant fear of its potential for madness. And about a decade ago, Dennis Rodman kept visiting for some reason, which is probably a sign that something strange and terrible is going on. So how do we get here? Well, let's get back to the first and only times a nuclear weapon were actually used in war.

[John Bolton]

The day of Days for America and her Allies. Crowds before the White House await the announcement from the President that the Japs have surrendered unconditionally. I have received this afternoon a message from the Japanese government in reply to the message forwarded to that government by the Secretary of State on August 11th. I deem this reply a full acceptance of the Potsdam Declaration, which specifies the unconditional surrender of Japan. In the reply, there is no qualification. Reporters rush out to relay the news to an anxious world and touch off celebrations throughout the country. Washington is jubilant, and in Chicago, more than a million sing and dance in the streets in the biggest town celebration the Windy City has ever seen. Joy is unconfined.

[Eli Lake]

After America's bombs led to Japanese surrender in the Second World War, its colonial possessions were divided by the victors, America and the Soviet Union. In the case of Korea, which was a colony of Japan between 1910 and 1945. This meant drawing a line on the 38th parallel, dividing the peninsula into two. The Soviets occupied the north and the Americans occupied the South. Three years later, in 1948, north and South Korea were born.

[John Bolton]

Southern Korea. And General MacArthur, accompanied by his wife, is welcomed in Seoul, the capital, by the President of the recently formed republic.

[Eli Lake]

Now, to understand the birth of North Korea, and frankly, South Korea too, one must keep in mind just how utterly brutal the Japanese Empire was. Its Imperial army conducted Mengele esque experiments on Chinese and Korean prisoners of war, exposing them to extreme temperatures, the blasts of artillery, and early crude biological weapons. One of fascist Japan's more loathsome practices was to force women, and in particular Korean women, into sexual slavery. They would be brought into what were euphemistically known as comfort stations, where Japanese soldiers would rape these women and girls. It was into this awful context that a man called Kim Il Sung would rise to become the first ruler of North Korea. And technically, he still is that ruler, even after his death. This was a man who embodied this anti Japanese fighting spirit. The official story of Kim Il Sung goes like this. The Great Leader was born near Pyongyang in 1912, on the day the Titanic was sunk. He became an anti Japan activist at the age of six. By the age of 20, he was the supreme commander of the anti Japanese resistance, the Korean People's Revolutionary Army. Kim established a rebel camp at Mount Paekchu, an almost holy site in Korean culture because it is the birthplace place of Dangoon, the founder of the first Korean kingdom. And from there, he led a successful campaign to drive the Japanese out of the peninsula, leading his army in 1945 to finally liberate Korea. But Kim was not only a great military commander, according to the official story, he was also a genius. Throughout the course of his life, he penned thousands of books. He was an expert in all matters of human knowledge, from physics to farming. He was able to give the national ping pong team invaluable direction on their serves and volleys. What an amazing guy. And we haven't even gotten to his magical powers. When Kim led the resistance, he once chopped down a tree with his sword in one fell swoop as if it were a bean curd. He could turn pine cones into bullets and sand into rice. He once crossed a river, stepping only on fallen leaves. Well, with a leader this wonderful, it's no wonder that Korea couldn't let go. After his funeral, he was declared the country's eternal leader. And North Koreans are still required to have a portrait of Kim Il Sung in their homes where the pictures are inspected by state minders to make sure that they are cared for. The real story is that Kim Il Sung was born Kim seung Julie in 1912, not on the day the Titanic sank. Two Korean Christian missionaries who fled to Chinese Manchuria to escape Japanese oppression. Kim was a rebel fighter and he did fight heroically, but he did not lead a military force. He was a mid level officer who took orders from the Soviets and the Chinese.

[John Bolton]

The North Koreans insist that the Japanese in Korea were defeated by the Korean Communist forces which never existed.

[Eli Lake]

This is Andrei Lankov, author of the Real North Korea, based in part on his time as a Soviet student studying in Pyongyang in the late 1980s.

[John Bolton]

According to the official history, the Soviet army played a sort of marginal auxiliary role in fighting for independence of Korea and Koreans liberated themselves. It's well understandable fantasy, but it's a complete fantasy because not a single Korean soldier was participating in the battles in August in 1945. In the battles for the liberation of Korea from the Japanese colonial rule, the Soviet army had some ethnic Koreans who were Soviet soldiers and officers, but, well, none of former guerrillas. Nobody subordinated to Kim Il sun in any way has taken part in the separations. So in a sense they invented a victorious war which never happened. But once again, having said that, we should never forget that Kim Il sun in his youth was a tough, brave, devoted person, a real hero. And forgetting everything which happened later, he probably would have maybe a rather modest but very respected place in the Korean history textbooks.

[Eli Lake]

Untangling the truth about Kim Il Sung from the myth is easier than untangling facts about the country today. After Kim Il Sung died, his son, Kim Jong Il took over. In 2011, when Kim Jong Il died, his throne was inherited by his son, the Swiss educated Kim Jong Un. Throughout these generations of terrible leadership, North Korea's misery has been discernible only through a blizzard of monstrous lies. At the center of this eternal deceit is the state's driving ideology, Juche. It's roughly translated as self reliance. There's nothing wrong with a national credo proclaiming economic, military and political independence. The reality, though, was that North Korea was a poorly run communist dystopia that has been reliant from its inception on the largesse and charity of the former Soviet Union and later Communist China. In his book the Real North Korea, Lenkov explains how it worked. The Soviets would trade military parts, grain, fuel and other valuable commodities for worthless North Korean junk like Vats of impotent fertilizer and other things their hobbled industrial base would produce, like the set piece Soviet towns shown to gullible tourists known as Potemkin villages. This was Potemkin international commerce. To conceal Moscow's subsidy of North Korea's economy, both sides pretended foreign aid was foreign trade. Private markets were also phony. In North Korea, they were technically allowed for luxuries, you know, like chicken breasts or tablecloths, something almost no North Korean is able to afford either in the early 80s or today. In reality, the nation creaks on under a terrible system of rationing, with families deemed most loyal to the regime receiving the most rice and cornmeal. Nonetheless, the Kim family did like to put on a show for outsiders. One could travel to Pyongyang, as I did when I was a correspondent for UPI in the year 2000, and find department stores. But inside the department stores, there were no shoppers. The shelves were not stocked. It looked like the set for a movie about a department store in North Korea. I remember sitting down for lunch at my hotel and being handed a menu of 25 pages, describing in English and Korean the various delectables that awaited. But when I tried to order these items, I was told the kitchen was out. The only thing on the menu was kimchi and a very salty noodle dish. And I was a guest of the state. I was part of Secretary of State Madeleine Albright's press delegation on a historic visit, someone they likely wanted to impress. Imagine how poorly the subjugated North Koreans were being fed. Not only did this extreme corruption and incompetence subject his people to generations of chronic malnourishment, but Kim Il Sung created a state with a level of surveillance and control that would make even the Soviets think he was being extreme, one which his family has happily maintained.

[John Bolton]

I would say that Kim Il Sung, the founder of North Korean state, was more Stalinist than Joseph Stalin himself.

[Eli Lake]

This is Andrei Lankov again.

[John Bolton]

It was shocking for somebody from the 1980s Soviet Union. And it would probably look excessive to somebody from Stalin's Soviet Union. Like demand, which was really enforced back in the 1980s, not later, but in the 1980s. It was enforced to get a government permission for any trip outside your city or province of residence. If you wanted to visit your uncle living in a different province, you should first get a permission from your workplace, second from petty official responsible for you in your place of residence. Then you would get a police clearance and formal paper. And only as long as you had this paper in your Pocket it was safe to travel.

[Eli Lake]

Nothing is free in North Korea. Consider the policy on radios. Tunable radios are illegal. Radio sets in North Korea only carry the official state broadcasts. And I should say this is a little bit outdated because Koreans now also have DVD players that are not connected to the Internet, which is a separate issue. But after people learned how to jerry rig the radios to allow them to pick up signals from South Korea, the BBC Korean Service, or Radio Free Asia, an internal surveillance organization known as the Inminban, began checking to see that the official radios were were not tampered with. The Inman bomb was largely made up of middle aged women who would police the families living in her area of responsibility. They would file reports on the status of a marriage, whether or not the family's obligatory portrait of Kim Il Sung in the apartment was kept clean, how much money was earned, and what meals were served. Once a week, the minder would host a family specific weekly review session based on Soviet and Maoist struggle sessions, where regular citizens would have to confess to impure thoughts and misdemeanors, both real and imagined. Most North Koreans, of course, soon learned that one should never actually confess to something serious in these struggle sessions, like doubting the official Juche ideology or hoarding extra rice rations because political infractions were harshly punished, whole families would be whisked away to labor camps for the crimes of a son or a father. These camps are still operating today, and you can actually see them from space. They're best compared to Stalin's Gulags. Prisoners are given a pitiful ration of a watery and salty soup, and according to testimony of those lucky enough to ever get out. In order to survive, prisoners are forced to forage for edible weeds and hunt for rats. The inmates dig mines with crude handheld shovels or sew clothing for 18 hours a day. And if you don't make the quota, the punishments are brutal. Beatings, torture, sometimes confinement in a box so small one can neither stand nor sit for weeks at a time. But if you're a member of the Kim family or one of the regime elites, well, life is sweet. Just consider a typical menu for the family of Kim Il Sung's son and success successor Kim Jong Il. Here is an extract From Anna Fifield's 2019 book, the Great Successor.

[John Bolton]

The meals prepared for Kim Jong Il.

[Eli Lake]

By a team of chefs were lavish.

[John Bolton]

There was grilled pheasant, shark fin soup.

[Eli Lake]

Russian style, barbecued goat meat, steamed turtle roast chicken, and pork and Swiss style.

[John Bolton]

Cheese melted on potatoes.

[Eli Lake]

The royal family ate only rice produced.

[John Bolton]

In a special area of the country.

[Eli Lake]

Female workers hand picked each grain one by one, making sure to choose flawless.

[John Bolton]

Grains of equal size.

[Eli Lake]

What makes this passage even more galling is that these meals were prepared for Kim Jong Il, known as the Deer Leader, while his country endured a famine in the late 1990s. Remember, the Juche state was always reliant on the charity of the Soviet Union. When the evil empire fell on December 26, 1991, the phony trade that kept North Korea afloat collapsed along with the propped up economy the Soviets subsidized. The result was a famine where at least 400,000 Koreans perished. Just a few miles to the south, across the most militarized border on earth, South Korea was emerging as an economic tiger. This is the context of the first North Korean nuclear crisis. After the break, what the Kim family did to save its prison state. Hi, I'm Eli Lake. I want to tell you about a great podcast that I think you'll appreciate, Unpacking Israeli History, hosted by Noam Weissman. If you read the headlines about Israel, you're only getting a tiny slice of a long and complicated story without depth, context, or sometimes even the basic facts. Much like breaking history, Unpacking Israeli History uncovers the history behind the headlines. Diving into the fascinating and sometimes controversial events and figures that have shaped Israel's past and present, Noem examines each subject from a variety of perspectives, leaning into the complexities and layers around topics like how the state of Israel was founded and debates around the Israeli Palestinian conflict. So if you're looking for a nuanced, thought provoking take on Israel, one that avoids the oversimplifications and political spin, you'll love this show. Find Unpacking Israeli History wherever you listen to your podcasts or watch it on YouTube.

[John Bolton]

What if I get caught? Oh, you're not gonna get caught. Look, let me get a man.

[Eli Lake]

It's the 90s. It's hammer time.

[John Bolton]

Come on. Let me get him. Jared. Jerry.

[Eli Lake]

For Americans, the 1990s were a kind of golden age. We had won the Cold War, Germany was reunified, our intellectuals proclaimed the end of history, and we became sidetracked by our president's affair with an intern and O.J. simpson pretending he couldn't put on a glove. For North Korea, a communist dictatorship, the 1990s were a nightmare. In 1994, Kim Il Sung expired, although, of course, he remains the eternal ruler of North Korea. And his portly son, Kim Jong Il, took over. He inherited a famine and the end of Soviet subsidies. All of the Old communist dictators were being rudely ousted from power in this period. Some were even executed by firing squad. Kim Jong Il and his family were running out of options and the stakes were dire. So they decided to play some hardball. Nuclear hardball. The story begins in March 1993. Across the demilitarized zone that divides north and South Korea, the US And South Korean military engage in joint exercises known as Team Spirit. This unnerved the North Koreans. The heir apparent, Kim Jong Il, who at that time was the Grand Marshal of the army, put his nation on a semi war footing. Rallies inside the capital, Pyongyang featured thousands of soldiers with their heads shaved, shouting their desire to protect the homeland. A popular song at the time praised the leader in waiting.

[John Bolton]

Without you there is no us without you there is no country takes care of our children and our home Our nation's fate. Marshal Kim Jong Il Even though the world is overturned a hundred times, still the people believe in Marshal Kim Jong Il.

[Eli Lake]

This saber rattling wasn't posturing. It was a threat. As early as 1959, the North Koreans had a plutonium reactor built for them by the Soviets. And by the end of the 1990s, there were signs that the Kim family was working on a weapon, albeit very quietly. North Korea had signed the Nuclear Non proliferation treaty in 1985 under Soviet and Chinese pressure. But in 1992, the International Atomic Energy Agency discovered that plutonium for a nuclear power plant was being diverted to what looked to be a separate weapons program. Would Kim come clean and face the consequences? Instead of a mea culpa? Pyongyang's emperor, on March 8, 1993, announced what until then seemed unthinkable that his regime said North Korea was pulling out of the Nuclear Non Proliferation Treaty. This was the first time that a member of the NPT had announced intentions to withdraw. America was desperate to avoid that scenario. Here are the first lines from the New York Times editorial from March 16, 1993.

[John Bolton]

North Korea may not be in a position to use those nuclear weapons it has allegedly been developing. But for the past few days, Pyongyang has been flirting with diplomatic suicide and scaring a lot of people.

[Eli Lake]

Many Americans do not fully appreciate that in the 1990s, America came very close to to going to war with North Korea. Madeleine Albright, who was then the US Ambassador to the United nations, recalled in her memoir that the Clinton administration did consider military strikes seriously on the Yongbyong reactor. But war was averted, negotiations began Instead, and in 1994 the North Koreans accepted a kind of bribe. It was called the Agreed Framework. If North Korea remained in the Nuclear Non Proliferation Treaty, shut down the Yongbyong reactor and sealed the plutonium fuel rods that were being reprocessed before then, America would send fuel shipments and help it construct two civilian nuclear power plants. The regime solved its fuel crisis and got the benefit of American nuclear tech. But this national triumph did nothing at all to ease the famine in the late 1990s. The Kim family could, of course, live with a few hundred thousand North Koreans starving to death. They dined on grilled pheasant and steamed turtle, celebrated their success at bending America to its will in consolidating the Kim family's power. This is a crucial point when trying to understand exactly why rogue states pursue nuclear weapons. It's not really just about destruction. It's about preservation, preservation of the regime. If the Kims didn't threaten to build an A bomb, then it's very likely that their regime would go the way of East Germany. Why would any nation want to lift a finger for the survival of this Orwellian prison state if it couldn't threaten a mushroom cloud over Tokyo or Seoul? And it is for this reason that the Kim family also cheated on the Agreed Framework that they signed in 1994.

[John Bolton]

The agreed framework was intended to supply energy and light water reactors, if you can believe it, to North Korea in exchange for a pledge not to build nuclear weapons.

[Eli Lake]

This again is John Bolton.

[John Bolton]

It was a very bad deal, but it was premised on not allowing the nuclear reactors spent fuel to be reprocessed to get plutonium from it. But what our intelligence found was that North Korea was doing something completely separate and as an alternative route to nuclear weapons, setting up uranium enrichment capabilities so that they would have enriched uranium whether they extracted plutonium from the spent fuel of the Yongbyon reactor or not. And that was evidence that was conclusive that North Korea had a nuclear weapons intention. The nuclear reactors, you could say, well, they're for peaceful civil uses to generate electrical power. That was never true anyway. But there was no excuse for a need to have uranium enrichment other than building nuclear weapons.

[Eli Lake]

As it became clear that North Korea was in fact pursuing the bomb, the Green Framework collapsed. By the early 21st century, following the 911 attacks, President George W. Bush and his administration, which included John Bolton, became singularly focused on one cause, preventing bond villains from getting weapons of mass destruction. This obsession, of course, led to the second Iraq war. In 2003, coalition forces have begun striking.

[John Bolton]

Selected targets of military importance to undermine Saddam Hussein's ability to wage war.

[Eli Lake]

This war was waged on the assumption that the country's tyrant, Saddam Hussein, possessed stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons and still maintained an active nuclear program. This assumption was wrong. The stockpiles were never found and the reconstruction of Iraq became a bloody and expensive slog. But the war did do one thing. It convinced two nations who had previously been interested in joining the nuclear club to reconsider. In Iran, the war persuaded Khamenei to pause his weapons program and focus on enrichment for nuclear energy. In Libya, the effect was even more dramatic. Here is former British Prime Minister Tony Blair explaining some recent history of Western diplomacy with Muammar Gaddafi.

[John Bolton]

This evening, Colonel Gaddafi has confirmed that Libya has in the past sought to develop weapons of mass destruction capabilities as well as longer range missiles. Libya came to us in March following successful negotiations on Lockerbie to see if it could resolve its weapons of mass destruction issues in a similarly cooperative manner. Nine months of work have followed with experts from America and Britain, during which the Libyans discussed their programs with us. As a result, Libya has now declared its intention to dismantle its weapons of mass destruction completely and to limit the range of Libyan missiles to no greater than 300 km in accordance with the parameters set by the Missile Technology Control Regime. This decision by Colonel Gaddafi is an historic one and a courageous one, and I applaud it.

[Eli Lake]

Gaddafi reached out to the west after Saddam Hussein was found hiding in a spider hole by coalition forces. He gave up everything. Through his confessions, the west didn't just learn about Libya's nuclear ambitions. It also learned that Pakistan's nuclear program wasn't just about deterring India. Pakistan's leading physicist, A. Q Khan, was running a nuclear black market for the world's worst Bond villains.

[John Bolton]

Late 90s, early 2000s, you start to really get the concern that Khan had been sharing nuclear technology with Iran, with North Korea, with the Libyans.

[Eli Lake]

This is J. Solomon again.

[John Bolton]

And that really exploded after 9, 11 and early 2000, when one of the key parts of that was when the Libyans basically said, okay, we're giving up our program. And I think that gave the US a lot of intel, like, wow, the con was all over the place.

[Eli Lake]

It was ironic Bush never found nukes in Iraq. But the invasion prompted Libya to disclose how Pakistan's nuclear godfather aided four rogue states. Iraq, Iran, Libya and North Korea. Half a world away in Pyongyang, Kim Jong Il was unshaken by Operation Iraqi freedom. Instead, in 2003, he made good on his threat from 10 years earlier. North Korea withdrew from the Nuclear Non Proliferation Treaty. Once again, this policy worked well for North Korea. The Bush administration responded with more diplomacy. And for a hot minute, it looked like maybe talking would work. In 2005, North Korea signed a joint statement with America, China, South Korea, Japan and Russia pledging to abandon nuclear weapons in exchange for more foreign assistance. But this was another ruse. On October 9, 2006, North Korea tested its first nuclear device. It had the power of the little boy bomb that destroyed Hiroshima. The president, obsessed with stopping rogue states from going nuclear, allowed North Korea to do just that on his watch. And even after a nuclear test in 2007, the Bush administration was back at the negotiating table. The North Koreans agreed to shut down the Yongbyon reactor and the US agreed to more fuel aid to flow into North Korea. Kim Jong Il was more right than he knew. Colonel Muammar Gaddafi gave up his entire program in 2005. Sanctions were lifted and his regime was welcomed into the international community. But six years later, he was apprehended by rebel forces hiding in a drainage pipe beneath a highway. The dictator may have been able to suppress the popular uprising in his country after the Arab Spring in 2011, but after he threatened to wipe out Benghazi, his second largest city, NATO and America abandoned him. Gaddafi was the guy who gave away his nukes, and he died in a ditch. The message to every other Bond villain was nuclear weapons provide security that diplomatic handshakes do not. After Bush left office, Barack Obama too was vexed by the rogue nuke problem. But by then, America was exhausted and exasperated with the Kim family. While Obama focused on containing Iran's nuclear program, he largely ignored North Korea's. This approach was called strategic patience and was premised on the view that Pyongyang's nukes were just a means for shaking down the international community every few years. Besides, there were no signs that the Kim family would go backwards and actually disarm. Why bother with a charade when a Kim wants to talk? They thought, well, we'll listen.

[John Bolton]

The North Korean leadership sincerely believe that if they surrender nuclear weapons, it will be only a question of time before they suffer the fate of Saddam and Gaddafi again.

[Eli Lake]

This is Andrei Lenkov.

[John Bolton]

And of course they are not happy about it. So all talks about North Korean denuclearization, as I have been saying for 20 odd years, is a pipe dream. North Korea is nuclear and will remain nuclear for the foreseeable future.

[Eli Lake]

Donald Trump, of course, did try diplomacy in his first term with Kim Jong Un, son of Kim Jong Il. But Tensions boiled before Trump met with Kim. In 2018 and 2019, his military tested an intercontinental ballistic missile. On July 4, 2017, America's birthday, Trump belittled Kim, calling him rocket man. But then the American president and the new leader of North Korea, quote, fell in love. Perhaps our president really did learn to stop worrying and love the bomb.

[John Bolton]

I was really being tough and so was he. And we would go back and forth and then we fell in love.

[Eli Lake]

Okay.

[John Bolton]

No, really. He wrote me beautiful letters, and they're great letters. We fell in love.

[Eli Lake]

After the break. What North Korea's nuclear arsenal might tell us about a nuclear Since North Korea's first nuclear test in 2006, it has conducted five more, each one yielding a more devastating blast. As the great leader masters the power of the atom, his military is also perfecting its missiles. Today, North Korea is said to have as many as 70 nuclear weapons. And they keep getting better. This is what Rafael Grossi, the director general of the International Atomic Energy Agency, said about North Korea's arsenal just last week in Washington.

[John Bolton]

The program is no longer the complex at Yongbyon, it's Gangsun. It's other places also in the country. It's light water reactor. It's a second and perhaps a third enrichment facility being built at the moment. It's a reprocessing campaign which is ongoing as we speak. And there's a nuclear arsenal that exists. You cannot have a country like this, which is completely off the charts with this nuclear arsenal and with such a big program, nuclear program, with all these facilities, without us having any clue of any safety or security measure which is being applied to it.

[Eli Lake]

Obama's optimistic policy of waiting failed. Trump's love bombing, the bomb lover also failed. North Korea is more dangerous now than they've ever been. As we look at their expanded arsenal, it's worth asking, is this where Iran is heading? There's no reason to assume they're not. This is the dictator insurance policy, right? Why would you be a Gaddafi in the dirt when you could be a juche emperor with a nuke? If Trump is actually committed to negotiating an end to Iran's nuclear program, well, he's delusional. Bond villains don't give up their doomsday machines. They make them more ferocious, as the Kim family has proven. So what would an Iran with a North Korean nuclear arsenal look like? We are listening to an Iranian video recently released that depicts the dramatic enactment of the kidnapping of Israel's prime minister. The two and a half minute trailer ends with Benjamin Netanyahu tied to A chair somewhere in Iran about to be tortured. By Iranian standards, this kind of information warfare is really actually light stuff. Iran, after all, sponsors Hamas, the demons who launched October 7th. But this is kind of the point about both Iran and North Korea. Nukes are not just a useful bit of blackmail. A nuclear deterrent in the hands of a madman is a weapon of psychological terror that enables actual terror. We all suspect, as does the international community, that Kim or Khamenei may just be crazy enough to use a nuke. So we have to contemplate a very difficult decision. If we don't want Iran to go the way of North Korea, if we don't want Hamas or Hezbollah operating with the benefit of their patron's nuclear umbrella. But we have to take matters into our own hands, and I'm sorry to say this, we have to bomb Iran's nuclear facilities at the same time. That's only really a temporary solution. If Iran's regime survives, it will try and try and try again to get their nuclear insurance policy deprived by American bombs and Israeli saboteurs. And yet, even a nuke is not a fail safe dictatorship preservation policy. It does not prevent the consequences of internal rot and popular exasperation. The Soviet Union acquired nuclear weapons in 1949 at the height of Stalin's reign of terror. It took 42 years, but the Soviet Union eventually collapsed along with its possessions in Eastern Europe. So while a nuke can deter NATO or the US army, it does not protect against popular revolution and regime collapse. And this is a strong argument for attacking the modern bond villains at their weakest point, their own popular legitimacy. At least in the case of Iran, there's plenty of evidence that millions of Iranians themselves would rather not live under the reign of fanatics who have predicated their survival on forcing their population to endure the economic devastation that is a consequence of 25 years of nuclear brinksmanship.

[John Bolton]

In other news, it's been one month since 22 year old Mahsa Amini was detained by Iran's morality police for improperly wearing her hijab. Since her death in police custody three days later, Iranians have been taking to the streets. At first, the demonstrations, led mainly by women, vented their anger towards the country's morality police. But they quickly morphed into something much larger. In recent weeks, Iranians of all ages, ethnic groups and socio economic backgrounds have been calling for the Islamic Republic to go.

[Eli Lake]

That was less than three years ago. And before that, Iranians took to the streets to protest corrupt and failing banks. They have marched to oppose stolen elections, unpotable drinking water, mass arrests and disappearances. Every time the west has written off the Iranian people, they have proven how much they would rather live in freedom. That day may come, too, for North Korea, but this kind of reckoning is much closer for Iran. So instead of negotiating another deal with the blackmailers, why not align with the Iranian patriots who despise them? The alternative would be to watch another Bond villain acquire the means to threaten Armageddon as his people starved. Thanks for listening to Breaking History. If you liked this episode, if you learned something, if you disagreed with something, or if it simply sparked a new understanding of our present moment, please share it with your friends and family and use it to have a conversation of your own. And remember, if you want to support Breaking History, follow us on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts and leave us a five star rating and a nice comment too. Also, if you love this episode, there's more great content@the FP.com Please become a subscriber today and until then, I'll see you next time.

[John Bolton]

No confession for your crime Lies you told so sugar sweetly cover up the screams and cries. Welcome, honored Ayatollah. Meet your victims. Hang your head. The devil wants his loyal soldiers by his side among the dead.