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- [00:01]
Eli Lake
Warning. The following episode is about Lenny Bruce and his legacy on American culture. So there will be a lot of bad words, there is a lot of profanity, including some racial epithets. If that is something that you are uncomfortable with, then please keep that in mind. Since Trump won the election, American institutions are shedding what remains of wokeness nearly everywhere. From Columbia University to Facebook, the old guardrails have crumbled. Something similar happened nearly 60 years ago. After police and prosecutors drove the revolutionary comic Lenny Bruce into bankruptcy and overdose, America began its slide into vulgarity. Despite the best efforts of the word police of that era, the old taboos about sex and profanity melted away. Nonetheless, after the break, How American censors may win their battles but lose the culture war.
- [00:57]
Unknown Speaker 1
Kaid will fall and back lovable the five cue that is next year's model Lee Harvey Odds Irving Berlin what happened once happens again when news of Kids a Mystery.
- [01:23]
Eli Lake
Hi, I'm Eli Lake. I want to tell you about a great podcast that I think you'll appreciate Unpacking Israeli History, hosted by Noam Weissman. If you read the headlines about Israel, you're only getting a tiny slice of a long and complicated story without depth, context, or sometimes even the basic facts. Much like breaking history, Unpacking Israeli History uncovers the history behind the headlines. Diving into the fascinating and sometimes controversial events and figures that have shaped Israel's past and present, Noem examines each subject from a variety of perspectives, leaning into the complexities and layers around topics like how the state of Israel was founded and debates around the Israeli Palestinian conflict. So if you're looking for a nuanced, thought provoking take on Israel, one that avoids the oversimplifications and political spin, you'll love this show. Find Unpacking Israeli History wherever you listen to your podcasts or watch it on YouTube. It's official. The vibe has shifted. We are now post woke.
- [02:38]
Unknown Speaker 2
Right now. What I think happened last election is younger men, they would rather vote for somebody who feels who even if they don't completely agree with, they don't feel judged by than somebody who they do agree with that they feel like they have to walk on eggshells around constantly because they're going to be judged or ostracized or excommunicated. What's interesting about this moment is it feels like the two parties in some senses have flipped. Where, you know, Republicans used to be the judgmental assholes in many ways, and since many Democrats despite us, I would say for most of us coming from the right place of wanting to do the right thing. We've created a culture where. Where we say, well, if you say the wrong thing, you're excommunicated. And that's just not how human beings work. Nobody is perfect. But ultimately, what we have to do here is figure out how to bring people back in and work towards the bigger goal of advancing the future of this country and helping young people especially, get by so that they're able to focus on their lives and, you know, getting with a young woman or something like that instead of how are they.
- [03:29]
Eli Lake
Going to pay their rent in 2025? This is a fairly banal insight. The left have become the hall monitors and nobody really likes it. The remarkable thing, though, about that clip is who is now making the point. David Hogg, the Parkland school shooting survivor. The proto Greta Thunberg, one of the people who helped create the culture where if you said the wrong thing, you would be excommunicated. Well, now David Hogg is a vice chairman of the Democratic national committee who on May 9 told Bill Maher that the left should stop making everyone feel like they're walking on eggshells. We've come a long way since the summer of 2020. Indeed, the new vibe shift is everywhere. Facebook canceled its DEI programs. Columbia is now expelling students who cosplay jihad in the library on finals week. Let me be clear. What happened today? What I witnessed was utterly unacceptable. I arrived to see one of our public safety officers wheeled out on a gurney and another getting bandaged as I left. Hours later, I walked through the reading room, one of the many jewels of Butler Library, and I saw it defaced and damaged in disturbing ways and with disturbing slogans. Perhaps the most dramatic shift is in our language. Once forbidden words are now tolerated. Consider retard in 2021, then New York Times correspondent Taylor Lorenz publicly accused Silicon Valley investor Marc Andreessen of using the R word in a discussion on the clubhouse app. The accusation was enough for Andreessen to furiously deny he had said it. Now, I think Joe Rogan summed it up best.
- [05:18]
Joe Rogan
The word retarded is back, and it's one of the great culture victories that I think is spurred on probably by podcasts.
- [05:26]
Eli Lake
Pronouns are no longer mandatory. Gay is no longer just an identity. It's back to being a middle school insult. It's not just dirty words. There has been a decancelation. Officials who once had their social media accounts throttled or frozen are now running important government agencies. Marjorie Taylor Greene, once censured by her colleagues for denying the 2020 election is now a subcommittee chairman. Only a few years ago, the Babylon Bee had its account locked because it misgendered the Assistant Secretary of Health and Human Services. Now Twitter lets Kanye west stream his new single, Heil Hitler. It's hard to pinpoint the exact moment the new norms all fell to pieces. By the end of the Biden presidency, many of us had grown weary of excessive limits on our speech, the mandatory sensitivity trainings, the content moderation, the online outrage mobs. But for my money, the moment the great awokening unraveled came only a few days before the 2024 election. It was at Donald Trump's Madison Square Garden rally, and a roast comedian named Tony Hinchcliffe said this. Like, I don't know if you guys know this, but there's literally a floating island of garbage in the middle of the ocean right now. Yeah, I think it's called Puerto Rico. You can't say that if you're not Puerto Rican. And at a presidential rally, Mika, and.
- [06:52]
Mika Brzezinski
Any other political world, in any other political reality, after something like that was said, Democratic politicians, Republican politicians before Donald Trump, on this level, they would have all condemned the hate speech. They would have all condemned the attacks against Puerto Ricans who are American citizens. They would have all done that.
- [07:17]
Joe Rogan
But what happened here?
- [07:19]
Mika Brzezinski
One speaker after another speaker after another speaker got up there and talked. Nobody condemned him. Donald Trump got up, didn't say a word about it.
- [07:32]
Eli Lake
Even Megyn Kelly, who endorsed Trump in the election, was miffed. Maybe when you present in front of hundreds, thousands, at least at Madison Square.
- [07:43]
Unknown Speaker 1
Garden, you clean up the bro talk.
- [07:45]
Eli Lake
Just a little so you don't alienate women in the middle of America who are already on the fence about Republicans. Tony's career should have been over. He should have lost endorsement deals, gigs. He should have been picketed by the rules of WOKE engagement. He should have been placed firmly on the margins of our culture. But Tony Hinchcliffe wasn't canceled. He ended up getting a Netflix deal. And his joke didn't bury Trump's election campaign either. In fact, it seemed to have no effect at all. Trump won 54% of Latino males. This moment signaled a real vibe shift. During the woke era of 2014-2024, comedy itself became a battleground. Comedians found their careers strangely politicized. Jerry Seinfeld announced that he was no longer doing college shows because the rooms were just too tough. Podcasters had their shows demonetized on YouTube. Shane Gillis was sacked by SNL. But for all that, the comedy clubs were the one institution that didn't just wilt in the face of online opprobrium and the new progressive dogma shortly after he got canceled.
- [08:57]
Noam Dwarmin
What am I gonna do when Louis CK comes back?
- [09:00]
Eli Lake
This is Noam Dwarman, owner of the Comedy Cellar in Manhattan, discussing his decision to book Louis CK after he was canceled for masturbating in front of two female comics several years earlier.
- [09:13]
Noam Dwarmin
Well, in the moment, it was a nightmare because we had protests. Every newspaper was writing stories negatively about me. I even had some threats of violence. Some people were threatened, obliquely threatened. My kids, you know, they said, like, I saw your kids on the Internet. It'd be terrible if something were to happen to them. Like happened to those kids that Louie made fun of in Parkland or something like that. You know, take it as what you want. And the emails that I got, just buried in angry and negative emails from people. Our Google reviews, our Yelp reviews were.
- [09:55]
Dave Chappelle
Just.
- [09:58]
Noam Dwarmin
Hammered down to or lowest numbers. But, Eli, the only thing that didn't happen is business did not decrease.
- [10:12]
Eli Lake
This is a valuable insight. Even when the online outrage mobs appeared to be at their most powerful, people still voted with their feet, at least when it came to comedy. And this is because for the last 60 years or so, the one place in American life where cultural taboos are put in the dock and interrogated is in that one man courtroom of the standup comic. In this respect, these joke tellers play the role of dissident, saying out loud what we are too afraid to say online. You see, what I didn't realize at.
- [10:47]
Dave Chappelle
The time and what Kevin had to.
- [10:48]
Eli Lake
Learn the hard way, is we were breaking an unwritten and unspoken rule of show business.
- [10:54]
Dave Chappelle
And if I say it, you'll know.
- [10:56]
Eli Lake
That I'm telling you the truth.
- [10:57]
Dave Chappelle
The rule is that no matter what you do in your artistic expression, you are never, ever allowed to upset the Alphabet people.
- [11:13]
Eli Lake
You know who I mean?
- [11:16]
Dave Chappelle
Those people that took 20% of the Alphabet for themselves.
- [11:23]
Eli Lake
I'd say the letters, but I don't.
- [11:25]
Dave Chappelle
Want to conjure their anger.
- [11:28]
Eli Lake
Ah, it's too late now.
- [11:29]
Dave Chappelle
I'm talking about them L's and them.
- [11:31]
Eli Lake
B's and them G's and the T's. That was Dave Chappelle from his aptly titled 2019 Netflix special, Sticks and Stones. And he was taking on a very contemporary set of taboos. The taboo against questioning the absolute moral authority of the new trans orthodoxy. And while Netflix still released Chappelle's specials, there was real friction. He became a target for LGBT activists in 2022, his gig at the Minneapolis club that once hosted Prince and the Revolution canceled his performance because of a revolt from the staff. Netflix writers and employees held a brief strike to get Netflix to stop putting out Dave Chappelle specials. Sigmund Freud argued in 1905 that a good joke releases a kind of pent up mental energy that we expend to maintain taboo. Anthropologists have concluded that every human society has the sacred and profane, what Claude Levi Strauss called the raw and the cooked. Jokes are a way of exploring that forbidden space. Now we should say even at the high point of the awokening, the state did not formally enforce the new cultural norms. There were no laws against Shane Gillis mocking Chinese people on a podcast a bit that cost him that job at Saturday Night Live. The government did not force anyone to say Black Lives Matter or trans rights or human rights. The enforcement of the new rules was more subtle, even though it was nonetheless coercive. It was understood in boardrooms and newsrooms, Hollywood studios and universities that traversing new taboos was just not worth the risk of the backlash. The threat of jail time was not necessary to punish forbidden speech. Well, that wasn't always the case. To find the last major prosecution for word crimes, you have to go back more than 60 years. And yes, it was a comedian and yes, he went to jail for his jokes. His name was Leonard Alfred Schneider, but he is known to history as Lenny Bruce.
- [13:42]
Robert Korn Revere
The importance of Lenny Bruce, though, is from a cultural perspective. He marked the end of an era of censorship in that at the time he was prosecuted for obscenity, for doing standup routines.
- [13:55]
Eli Lake
This is First Amendment lawyer and author of the Mind of the Censorship and the Eye of the Beholder, Robert Korn, Revere.
- [14:03]
Robert Korn Revere
It was the last time because of the development of First Amendment law that you have people being prosecuted for word crimes. And that is a cultural milestone that we really need to recognize and to celebrate that that is something in our past and that there should be no more martyrs to the First Amendment as in the way that Lenny Bruce was.
- [14:27]
Eli Lake
In the early 1960s, district attorneys in four major cities prosecuted Lenny Bruce for insulting the Catholic Church, referencing lewd sex acts and making fun of the First Lady. Routines like this.
- [14:40]
Dave Chappelle
The bust. What I got arrested for in San Francisco. San Francisco, I got arrested for. What do you think we can hear that, Daddy? I'm not going to repeat the word because I want to finish the gig here tonight.
- [14:51]
Eli Lake
It's.
- [14:53]
Dave Chappelle
They said it was vernacular for a favorite homosexual practice. A ten letter word. It's really chic. That's two four letter words and a preposition. I wish I could tell you the word. It starts with a C. We need to know what it is.
- [15:08]
Eli Lake
The prosecutions ruined Lenny, but they also cemented his revolutionary, radical and fearless honesty as a new art form comedy contest could now speak truth to power. And this new kind of norm defiance became the model for the kings and queens of comedy today. I'm Eli Lake and you're listening to Breaking History. In this episode I tell the story of Lenny Bruce, arguably the most important comedian of all time. After the break, the first stand up social critic and how he lost his legal back battle but won his culture war.
- [15:46]
Unknown Speaker 1
The cops found Lenny slumped over on the floor, the dope in his arm from the night before the morphine killed him. The television said if it wasn't for the junk, Lenny wouldn't be dead but the man on the news isn't paid to understand understand it's the cops that got Lenny Bruce's blood on their hands Made his living told the dirtiest jokes for downtown hookers and the regular folks chased out a New York but he put up a fight cast to the lawyers defending his rights When a judge in the court isn't paid to understand that the charges in the case they're nothing but sham Then he died for our right to addict ourselves to porn Then he knew he was right he rejected every norm Lenny died for our right to say whatever we wish Lenny knew he was right Eleanor Roosevelt's tits Lenny he died for our bread to make our culture obscene Lenny knew he was right to tell it like he had.
- [17:54]
Eli Lake
Before we get into Lenny Bruce's story, let's pour one out for the American censor. He is the modern Sisyphus if ever there was one. Every time he succeeded in banning a book or slapping a warning label on a video game or rock album, the culture continues to slide back into the muck. The prototypical American crusader was a guy called Anthony Comstock. He became a censor of national significance when in 1873, he persuaded Congress to pass a law that carried his name, allowing him to prevent lewd and obscene literature from being sent through the mail. But society flows downhill and Comstock was the target of ridicule. Not for the last time in American history. The censor became an important marketing tool for the goods he wished to suppress as publishers sought out his stamp of disapproval so they could say their books were quote, quote, banned in Boston, a label as seductive to consumers as parental advisory stickers would be to rap fans. Over 100 years later.
- [18:55]
Robert Korn Revere
Well, that's what I meant by the censor's dilemma. Yeah, that you have people who, based on their position, can exert great authority and can chill a great deal of speech, and yet they are also ridiculed behind their backs, sometimes to their fronts, and they ultimately become thought of as buffoonish characters that undermine their own goals.
- [19:22]
Eli Lake
Again, this is Robert Korn Revere.
- [19:24]
Robert Korn Revere
That was the problem with Comstock in the fact that he took himself so seriously and was so over the top in his censorship campaigns that he alienated not just those who were the targets of his campaigns, but also people who actually believed that he was doing a good thing.
- [19:41]
Eli Lake
Comstock's failure to stop people from reading prurient books is a good prism through which to understand the life of Lenny Bruce. Born into a showbiz family, his mother was a vaudeville era comic herself. In his life, he went from the pinnacle of hypnos as an edgy comic in the late 1950s to a foul mouthed pariah in a few short years. But in death, he became a secular saint. He died so George Carlin could tell dirty jokes, so Larry Flynt could publish Hustler magazine, so Howard Stern could broadcast the lesbian Dating Game, and so Cardi B could record wet ass pussy.
- [20:18]
Unknown Speaker 1
Yeah, you fucking with some wet ass pussy.
- [20:23]
Eli Lake
He is both a founding father of modern standup and the man who opened the faucet of filth that today's popular culture joyfully wades through.
- [20:35]
Joe Rogan
I do think that the obscenity trial of Bruce was important because if we think about it before that time, the linguistic culture of America to us looks almost bizarrely Victorian or post Victorian.
- [20:49]
Eli Lake
This is Columbia University linguistics professor John McWhorter.
- [20:53]
Joe Rogan
So even with the, say, early talkie movies, where it's fashionable to say that there are things that they would barely do in movies today that they were doing then, the truth is that linguistically, every now and then a person could quietly say damn or hell if it was kind of quiet. And usually it was an uptight character who said it. But shit and fuck were absolutely impossible. Even if these were, you know, gangsters, very poor people, very violent people, the language was really buttoned up. Whereas we're very familiar with the way things are today and become even more todayish by the week. And so, yeah, that was a time when we got away from what you can think of as a rather primitive idea that there are certain magic words that you absolutely do not utter for any reason. And it's really not different from, say, an indigenous Pre literate tribe, where for various reasons, there are words that you absolutely don't utter in laws, names or the names of dead people.
- [21:50]
Eli Lake
When Lenny Bruce emerged as a standup comic, culturally at least, there were two Americas. Mainstream America liked to imagine itself as a wholesome Norman Rockwell painting. But if you looked hard enough in the after hours cafes and bohemian bookstores, you could find a vibrant counterculture. Smut was technically banned in most of the country, but it was tolerated so long as it was enjoyed, purchased and created in out of the way places. It was in this America that we first heard Allen Ginsberg's Howl howl for Carl Solomon.
- [22:24]
Dave Chappelle
I saw the best minds of my generation destroyed by madness, starving, hysterical, naked, dragging themselves through the negro streets at dawn, looking for an angry fix.
- [22:38]
Eli Lake
Today we consider Howell a treasure of American literature. But when it was published, the San Francisco Police Department determined it was obscene. On June 3, 1957, an undercover officer purchased a copy of Howell and then turned around and arrested the cashier who sold it to him. The owner of that bookstore, Lawrence Ferlinghetti, was taken to court for stalking Ginsburg's masterpiece. The trial was a sensation. Major literary figures of the day offered their public support for Ferlinghetty. And when the case finally went to trial in August of that year, the judge ruled Ginsburg's poem was not obscene even though it contained obscenities. If a work had any socially redeeming value, then it would be protected by the First Amendment. But Howl is an example of the underground, the avant garde written by and for those on the edge of culture. By comparison, the center of American culture was clean and square.
- [23:34]
Dave Chappelle
Picture a little love nest down where the roses cling.
- [23:43]
Joe Rogan
Picture the same sweet.
- [23:45]
Dave Chappelle
Love nest and think what a year can bring. He's washing dishes and baby clothes. He's so ambitious he even sews. But don't forget, folks, that's what you get, folks for. Making whoopee.
- [24:08]
Eli Lake
Movies barely showed kisses, let alone sex. Songs relied on euphemisms to express individual, intimate copulation, like Frank Sinatra's Makin Whoopee, the track we are listening to now. In 1962, it was a legitimate scandal that Nelson Rockefeller, the Republican governor of New York, divorced and then remarried. Books by D. H. Lawrence and Henry Miller were banned in libraries. Television shows filmed Elvis Presley from the waist up because he gyrated his hips during his stage act. We were a long way from Cardi B and online pornography again. One could still find dirty words in dirty pictures if one tried. And one man who did was Lenny Bruce. Lenny came from an underworld of beatniks and jazz clubs. He honed his trade as a standup comic for burlesque shows, the 1950 version of the strip club. In these shows, women wore pasties to hide their nipples and pranced around in feather boas. And between the smiled striptease, comics would come on stage and deliver a succession of one liners.
- [25:10]
Dave Chappelle
Just got back from Miami, ladies and gentlemen. They said, come down to Miami this time of the year. You get a nice room near Miami beach for $20 a week. I was living in Savannah, Georgia.
- [25:18]
Eli Lake
Lenny did that for a while. But as the 50s turned into the 60s, he reinvented himself. He would famously say, I am not a comedian, I am Lenny Bruce. And what he meant by that is that he was offering more than a few belly laughs. He was performing stand up social criticism. His act resembled a jazz performance. He would improvise and go off on freeform expositions. He explored how a word sounded with different pronunciations and how its meaning would change depending on the context.
- [25:48]
Dave Chappelle
To preposition to his preposition, come is a verb. Choose a preposition, come as a bird.
- [26:00]
Eli Lake
One liners could not contain what Lenny had to say.
- [26:03]
I
I think Lenny Bruce is considered so revolutionary is not because I mean the profanity was obviously part of it. But I feel like it was the honesty like before that every comedian would, for example, a mother in law joke, which is which those jokes are very funny because there was intrinsic like truth to people's mother in laws and them not getting along right. So it's not like they were bad comics, they're good comics.
- [26:34]
Eli Lake
This is legendary comic Colin Quinn.
- [26:36]
I
But Lenny Bruce was like, no, I'm going to tell you about my specific, deepest, like strangest thoughts about my mother in law and our relationship. You know, not that he did that, but I'm saying that's. That would be his angle on his mother in law would be like, you know, like yeah man, like, you know, my mother in law, we're in this like weird relationship and it's kind of like, you know, strangely, you know, whatever it was just he was. He went to a deeper place than stand up did at that time.
- [27:07]
Eli Lake
In going to those deeper places, Lenny Bruce hunted for the rawest nerve in our society and went to work. Here is one of the more notorious disquisitions on the definition of obscenity.
- [27:18]
Dave Chappelle
I would like an honest equation from any at least grammar school graduate. Is a witch son of a bitch less obscene to you than motherfucker? Really? Is it the fact That a Catholic president called all businessmen son of a bitches. In a Jewish comic relates motherfucker, if you're interested in the meaning of obscenity, I'm less obscene than a president. If the word motherfucker stimulates you sexually, you're in a lot of trouble. Especially if it's my mother.
- [27:48]
Eli Lake
Lenny Bruce performed that routine in 1962. And when he did, he was not exactly a cultural outcast. He was a hip in demand comic and made a lot of money for the era. Half a million dollars a year at his peak. Time magazine in 1959 labeled him a sick Nick. A new breed of comedian that explored vulgarity and politics. Lenny Bruce landed a monthly appearance offering his standup on Steve Allen's late night chat show. He was an early guest on Hugh Hefner's Playboy cocktail hour. Even though the dominant culture was tame, the great cities, New York first among them, offered this rich buffet of filth for all who desired. This was a golden age for organized crime who were able to turn pornography, gay bars, peep shows and the like into profitable rackets protected by the cops they bribed. And this jibed well with the New York of Arts and Letters, Commentary magazine and the Village Voice, an emerging folk scene in Greenwich Village and the post bop renaissance. Lenny Bruce was part of that bohemian tapestry. And in that underworld, the artists, writers, strippers and freaks all rubbed elbows after hours. And they all clashed with the cops who had been given the unenviable task of making New York City shine its shoes and comb its hair. I actually have a paper thin sliver of sympathy for the police in this case. After all, anti obscenity laws were on the books. There was also a strong public decency faction inside of New York politics. Cardinal Francis Spelman launched a crusade, for example, to clean up Times Square. And under pressure from these moralists like Spelman, the NYPD raided more than 100 smut shops in the city in 1963 and 1964. Spellman thought he was enforcing a community standard for New York City. But whose community are we talking about? Certainly the community standards for Greenwich Village were different than those for the outer boroughs. What's more, the Supreme Court's obscenity test at this point included the stipulation that obscenity was permitted if it had some socially redeeming value, like Allen Ginsberg's Howl. Modigliani's nudes, for example, may be obscene to some, but our culture would be impoverished if displaying these works invited sanction and censure by the police. This is the environment in which the real persecution of Lenny Bruce began. In New York, at least you could say it started with a risky joke. Only a few months after the assassination of John F. Kennedy, Lenny accused Time magazine of not being straight with its readers. Jackie had not rushed to save her dying husband after Lee Harvey Oswald's bullets rained down on Dealey Plaza. This is Dustin Hoffman's version of a famous Lenny Bruce routine.
- [30:38]
Dave Chappelle
When the President got it bam. And the Governor got it bam. She tried to get the hell out of there. But they want us to believe this bullshit. They want my daughter, our daughters. If their husbands get their faces shot off someday and they try to haul ass to save their asses, if they do the normal thing, then they'll feel guilty and shitty because they're not like that good woman in the fantasy.
- [31:00]
Eli Lake
An ambitious prosecutor in Hogan's office named Richard Q thought that joke was so tasteless and over the top that he owed it to the nation to put the bracelets on Lenny.
- [31:14]
Mika Brzezinski
Now to reference Q. When Lenny Bruce was arrested and convicted in New York for his hauling ass to save her ass routine, he was penalized for degrading America's lofty image of Jacqueline Kennedy. And this only months after the President's assassination.
- [31:39]
Eli Lake
This is David Scover, the co author of the Trials of Lenny Bruce along with Ronald K.L. collins.
- [31:46]
Mika Brzezinski
Again, he could not be constitutionally charged for seditious libel. That was not possible. But the concern was seditious libel nonetheless, the libel of a public figure. So Q was one of the people who was extraordinarily offended by that particular routine. And he wasn't thrilled by a lot of Lenny Bruce's routines. There are others that were mentioned in the trial. The tits and ass routine was mentioned. His use of four letter, six letter words were mentioned. But if one really wanted to get to the psyche, I think that Q's motivation and his fervor were fueled by his utter disgust with Lenny Bruce's willingness to go out and make fun of Jacqueline Kennedy in the routines. Hauling ass to save her ass. That, that is the, the epitome for Richard Q of seditious libel. And I believe that Lenny was prosecuted for seditious libel, even though the charge had to be obscenity.
- [33:20]
Eli Lake
On March 31, 1964, the NYPD sent plainclothes officers to Cafe A Go Go, where Bruce was performing, to find out for themselves whether the hottest comic in New York violated the city's community standards. They recorded his act and when he was arrested, along with the husband and wife who owned the venue. It was specifically for his use of dirty words. This is Lenny in 1965, recounting one of the bits that got him into so much trouble.
- [33:46]
Dave Chappelle
Say again now. And the result? Eleanor Roosevelt had the nicest tits of any lady I ever saw. And I saw them by mistake. I was walking at a party and I walked in the bedroom. Oh, excuse me. You've seen them, haven't you? Yeah, and they're lovely. I never saw such nice tits in my life.
- [34:05]
Noam Dwarmin
Really?
- [34:05]
Dave Chappelle
I love you. I don't want to be rude, but I've never. I've always admired you and your tits. And I admired you for years, even before you had any tits, when you're nine years old. So long, Ellie. That was a little bit. That was it. That was it.
- [34:17]
Eli Lake
Thus began the obscenity trials for Lenny Bruce. They make for a fascinating kind of reading. When police officers were forced to recount Lenny's routines from the stand, Lenny would complain that their timing was off. Here is an exchange between the critic Dorothy Kilgallen and Richard Q. Over his famous Jackie Kennedy bit.
- [34:38]
Joe Rogan
He's just described Jackie Kennedy's pictures in the automobile. And then he goes on and he says, that's the way all of us feel. Shitty all the time because we're no good. Cause we run away. Cause nobody ever stays. It's all bullshit. None of you motherfuckers ever stayed one time in your life. Do you feel that that language was necessary for the effectiveness of that portion of that script?
- [35:04]
Eli Lake
I think he felt it was necessary and perhaps it was. He was expressing the fear that all human beings feel, and he was sympathizing with it. And if he feels it's necessary, I do not object to it.
- [35:15]
Joe Rogan
Are you saying that in your eyes, Mr. Bruce can do no wrong?
- [35:20]
Eli Lake
Even in 1964, Lenny Bruce had allies. This is an open letter signed by a who's who of 20th century cultural and literary legends, including Paul Newman, Elizabeth Taylor, Woody Allen, Bob Dylan, Gore Vidal, Norman Mailer, Henry Miller, Nat Hentoff, and the founding editor of Commentary magazine, Norman Podaritz.
- [35:45]
Joe Rogan
It read, lenny Bruce is a popular and controversial performer in the field of social satire, in the tradition of Swift, Rabelais and Twain. Although Bruce makes use of the vernacular in his nightclub performances, he does so within the context of his satirical intent and not to arouse the prurient interests of his listeners. It is up to the audience to determine what is offensive to them. It is not a function of the police department of New York or any other city to decide what Adult private citizens may or may not hear.
- [36:20]
Eli Lake
All of this gets to the inherent problem of word crimes. Who decides Lenny's audience? Cardinal Spellman? Richard Q. Lenny Bruce was prosecuted for his act in New York, San Francisco, Los Angeles and Chicago. He was banned from the United Kingdom twice. Over time he became obsessed with his persecution. The legal fees bankrupted him. He did his own research on First Amendment law, he fired his lawyers and he dug deeper and deeper into heroin and morphine. Unsurprisingly, his act, like his personal life, unraveled. He began spending his time on stage reading angrily from court proceedings of his trial. He was becoming a stand up polemicist. As a result of the bullseye on Lenny's back and the increasingly bitter tone of his shows, he was no longer a hot ticket. Clubs wouldn't book him, he was in debt. Everything was going wrong. On August 3, 1966, Lenny died of an overdose of morphine in his bathroom. Sitting in his typewriter was a page bearing the words of the Fourth Amendment, which protects citizens from unlawful search and seizure. When the police arrived, they allowed the media to photograph his lifeless body, the spike still in his arm. Phil Spector, the legendary producer who himself would later be convicted of murder, remarked at the time that Lenny died of an overdose of Police. Here is David Scover again.
- [37:51]
Mika Brzezinski
Ron and I could not substantiate whether Lenny committed suicide or overdosed accidentally, but we did. We did establish that on the day that he died on his toilet. On the day he died, he had received a foreclosure notice on his home in the Hollywood Hills. And he loved that place. It was his sanctum sanctorum.
- [38:37]
Eli Lake
Eleven days later, the Judson Memorial Church held a funeral service in New York City. Allen Ginsberg read his poetry, Tony Scott's quartet performed a freeform blues, and the Reverend Howard Moody gave a eulogy, which I will play now. In part.
- [38:55]
Dave Chappelle
He was an iconoclastic comic who demolished our cultural icons with relentless precision. There was no taboo so forbidding, no shibboleth so sacred that it could not be exposed and cut out by his probing surgical humor. Like a comic shaman, he exorcised and destroyed the demon that plagued the body of a sick society.
- [39:33]
Eli Lake
So this view of Lenny Bruce, expressed so eloquently by Reverend Moody, cast him as Socrates, a man driven to his death by a society that resented his pursuit of the truth. And there is something to that. If you listen to St. Lenny's bit on obscenity, he's making more than just a joke. Lenny Bruce was exposing the HYPOCRISY and moral degradation of a culture that accepted white supremacy but demonized gays and lesbians at the same time. Though Lenny Bruce could be quite vulgar. One of his most offensive jokes goes like this. A kid looks up at his father and he says, what's a degenerate? The father says, shut up, kid, and keep sucking. He told that joke during his downward spiral at a supper club, and he was thrown out of the gig. Now the question does that joke shine a light on a hidden truth obscured by a pointless taboo? Or is it just shocking and clever? Or maybe it's both. The answer to that question matters a great deal. And as we shall see, in the years after Lenny's death, American culture not only permitted more obscenity, it often celebrated the obscene as though it revealed a truth we wouldn't allow ourselves to see before. After the break, the legacy of a comedy. Marty Since Lenny Bruce died, it's been a tough road for those Americans who would like to return to a less vulgar America. We can look at his legacy as a kind of inflection point. He was really prosecuted for saying words like cocksucker and making jokes about Eleanor Roosevelt's tits, which seems pretty tame in a world when hardcore pornography is only a click away on your laptop and when even presidential candidates employ profanity from time to time. There are two interesting points about all of this. The first is that the cultural taboos against profanity at least began to melt away only two years after Lenny's death.
- [41:54]
Joe Rogan
Take out the dance, Motherfucker.
- [42:11]
Eli Lake
We are listening to early proto punk pioneers MC5. The song from 1969 is notable because it's the first time a song with a profanity, in this case motherfucker, charted on Billboard. The album reached number 30 and the song peaked at number 82. Now we should say there had been profanity in pop music before. The Kingsman's cover of Louie Louie has a barely audible fuck in the background. And the Greenwich Village group known as the Fugs recorded a series of profane ditties for a small label that never went national. But it was MC5 that kicked the doors open. When they kicked out the jams, it wasn't just in Cinema 2, the old taboos were cast aside. Consider Midnight Cowboy.
- [42:58]
Dave Chappelle
I'm Joe Buck from Texas, Enrico Rizzo from LeBron, and I'm gonna buy you a drink.
- [43:03]
Unknown Speaker 2
What the hell do you think of that?
- [43:04]
Dave Chappelle
I don't mind if I do. Why do you think I come all the way up here from Texas for? Well, I'm a hustler. You didn't know that?
- [43:09]
Joe Rogan
People gonna ask me for money, huh?
- [43:12]
Eli Lake
This 1969 film starring a young Dustin Hoffman and Jon Voight, depicts the story of a male prostitute's friendship with a New York con man. The there is a scene where a man fellates Voight in a theater. Initially, the Motion Picture Academy gave the film an R rating, but after consulting a psychologist, the movie was rated X. Nonetheless, it went on to win an Oscar for best picture in 1970. The next year, Hollywood made Myra Breckenridge, a film Based on the 1968 novel of the same name by Gore Vidal. This was the first major motion picture and the first novel about a trans main character.
- [43:50]
Dave Chappelle
You realize once they cut it off, it won't go back.
- [43:52]
Eli Lake
But of course, Lenny Bruce's biggest impact was on comedy. No bad words, bad thoughts, bad intentions and words.
- [44:03]
Dave Chappelle
You know the seven, don't you, that you can't say on television?
- [44:05]
Eli Lake
Shit, piss, fuck, cunt, cocksucker, motherfucker and tits. Huh? That was just one of Lenny Bruce's George Carlin performing his famous seven words you can't say on television routine. That bit got him arrested in Milwaukee on June 21, 1972. And you can hear Lenny Bruce's influence in the actual routine. That's not an accident. Lenny Bruce was an idol for Carlin. Indeed, Carlin was in the audience when Lenny was arrested in Chicago for one of his shows in 1964. Here's Carlin talking about how he too was arrested that evening.
- [44:41]
Mika Brzezinski
So when I got to the door.
- [44:42]
Dave Chappelle
And the police was id.
- [44:43]
Mika Brzezinski
You want to see your id?
- [44:44]
Dave Chappelle
I said, I don't believe in id.
- [44:46]
Mika Brzezinski
You know, just a smart ass Irish.
- [44:48]
Dave Chappelle
Guy, a little drunk, who didn't like.
- [44:50]
Mika Brzezinski
Authority anyway, you know, and didn't really care much for regulations my whole life. So I always give him, give him some shit, you know.
- [44:58]
Dave Chappelle
So I said, I don't believe in id.
- [45:00]
Mika Brzezinski
So he was a little exasperated by this point, this policeman, I guess he was in plainclothes and he sort of.
- [45:06]
Dave Chappelle
Grabbed me by the collar of the.
- [45:08]
Mika Brzezinski
Suit and, you know, the baggy pants of my ass and kind of bum rushed me down the stairs.
- [45:17]
Eli Lake
Had Carlin done his seven words bit in 1962, as opposed to 1972, he would have likely found himself banned from most nightclubs like his mentor, Lenny Bruce. But America had changed in a few months after the Milwaukee performance, the charges against Carlin were dropped. He went on the Tonight show with Johnny Carson to talk all about it.
- [45:37]
Dave Chappelle
Now, George, you must promise Me something. You won't get me in any trouble on the show tonight because I've been reading about your problems in Milwaukee and they busted you there or tried to bust you or there's a court case pending because. And I don't want to jeopardize the case, so I have to be careful. The words I use. I guess you allegedly, let me put it that way, use some words in your act, which brought about a bust, saying that you were. What was the technical language in the. Oh, it was disorderly conduct, hyphen, profanity.
- [46:12]
Eli Lake
Later, Carlin would include the seven words bit on his 1972 album, Class Clown, which he dedicated to Lenny Bruce for taking all the risks. Far from making Carlin too risky to get work, Class Clown and the seven words routine made him a superstar. After Lenny Bruce died. For our right to say words like cocksucker, obscenity stopped being a risk. It began to be rewarded. Telling dirty jokes, making risque films and shouting profanity on your album was cool. Obscenity was profitable. Just consider Lenny's own autobiography, how to Tell Dirty Jokes and Influence People. When it was published in 1965, it barely sold. When it was republished in 1972, it was a bestseller. And the shifting culture also had major political implications. There is no better example of this than the 1974 race for a Manhattan district attorney. The election pitted Robert Morgenthau against Lenny's original prosecutor, Richard Q. The story begins on April 3, 1974, a day after the death of Frank Hogan, the Manhattan district attorney. Q was still a prosecutor in that office and was soon named the interim district attorney. But this time he had enemies. 124 artists took out an advertisement in the Times that blasted Q's prosecution from 10 years earlier. Under the banner in all caps, Lenny Bruce arrested, Morgenthau made Q's pursuit of Lenny a campaign issue. He said he would not have done it himself. In a televised debate, Morgenthau said, I think it was not only the trial of that Bruce case, but it was the harshness with which Mr. Q tried it. He tried to prevent Bruce from getting bail. And in trial, he opposed a certificate of reasonable doubt after convictions. Now, one might think that Q would defend his decisions in a moment like this. But Q slunk away from the old prosecution. He accused Morgenthau playing dirty for dredging up the case. Q would go on to lose in a rout to Morgenthau by a 3 to 1 margin. He lost all 13 districts in Manhattan. Four of Q's own assistants at the DA office even volunteered for Morgenthau's campaign. That is crazy. Just look at how much America had changed in the aftermath of Lenny Bruce's death. By 1974, the district attorney who ruined his life couldn't even bring himself to defend his own case. But are we better off today?
- [48:45]
Noam Dwarmin
It's ridiculous that people were going to jail for saying obscene things. It's ridiculous that people were pretending they weren't hearing such things, you know, in their own lives.
- [48:56]
Eli Lake
This is Noam Dwarmin again.
- [48:59]
Noam Dwarmin
But the vulgarity which has now become an everyday part of our show business. I don't know. I don't know if we're better off for that. I don't like it that much. I know that they were wrong back when they were refusing to show Elvis from the waist down. But now my kids see simulated intercourse on a regular basis at 11 years old. Right? That's the. That's. That's where this led. So I'm always torn between this kind of hypocrisy that the.
- [49:29]
Eli Lake
What is it?
- [49:29]
Noam Dwarmin
The. The tribute that vice pays to virtue and now there's. I don't know, there's no tribute being paid anymore. It's like we're just like. We've all collapsed it. There's. Everything's collapsed. We don't even pretend anymore. And so somehow this form of comedy, it led us along to that. We love it. There's tremendous accomplishments of it. Some of the funniest things we've ever heard wouldn't have happened if not for the breaking down of these barriers. And yet, at the same time, we're left with an extremely vulgar culture that extends not just to comedy, but to the President of the United States. And everywhere you look, you can't turn on the TV anymore with your entire family without being embarrassed. It's all part of the same movement.
- [50:15]
Eli Lake
After the break, the one taboo that still remains today. Read Carlin's 7 Dirty Words or check the changing norms on homosexuality, and it would be easy to conclude that the culture cops have just totally lost. But this doesn't really capture the full spectrum of American taboo on sexuality and violence. The taboos have largely faded away, but One word in 2025 remains, a line not even the edgiest podcasters and comics traverse. At least the white ones. And I think we all know which one I am talking about. It is so forbidden that we have created our own euphemism to avoid pronouncing the syllables. The N word. Take a deep breath. This is going to sound very abrasive.
- [51:07]
Dave Chappelle
Are there any niggers here tonight? What did he say? Are there any knickers here tonight? Jesus Christ. He had to get that loaf of laughs.
- [51:17]
Eli Lake
That was the opening of one of Lenny Bruce's most famous routines. I have no doubt that he would not be allowed to perform that today. That is in part because he is not black, but it's also because the taboo on uttering that word in any context is stronger than ever. That change has been a slow boil in the 1970s. George Jefferson, the black friend of Archie Bunker and later the star of his own show, could say the word on network television. Here is Dick Cavett, a white man in 1972, using the N word on ABC to introduce a segment with John Lennon, who is not black, and Yoko Ono, who is also not black, where they discuss and perform one of their songs with the forbidden word in its title.
- [52:04]
Dave Chappelle
At this point in the show, which was taped a week ago, John and Yoko got into something which ABC feels may develop into, in their words, a highly controversial issue. It revolves around the song Woman Is a Nigger of the World and the obvious fact that some members of our black audience will or may be offended by the use of that word. In the next segment, John Lennon gives his reasons for writing the song and for using the word. I permitted this insertion into the show that I'm doing now as the only alternative to a full deletion by ABC of the segment.
- [52:34]
Joe Rogan
What was really striking was starting in the 90s, but it was around then that we started treating the N word as. As a magic word.
- [52:43]
Eli Lake
This is John McWhorter again, but I'm.
- [52:46]
Joe Rogan
Just old enough, about to be 60. I was doing media interviews when I was in my 30s and no one spelled it out, but within reason, you could say it and nobody would flinch. You're white, black, polka dotted. You didn't sit there saying it for the whole interview, but you could refer to it. And that wasn't considered a problem. And we thought of ourselves as living at the end of time, every bit as much as we do now. And so something has really happened and the word has become a magic word that had not happened quite to that extent in, say, a Norman lear sitcom in 1973. But here we are at the end point now of that process.
- [53:24]
Eli Lake
Now it's worth returning to that Lenny Bruce bit because his point about that word is worth considering. Here is Dustin Hoffman's version of the routine as performed in the 1974 film Lenny. @ a time when this kind of speech was evaluated based on the intention of the speaker and not the utterance of the syllables.
- [53:46]
Dave Chappelle
Well, I'm just trying to make a point and that is that it's the suppression of the word that gives it the power, the violence, the viciousness. Big if President Kennedy would just go on television and say, I'd like to introduce you to all the niggers in my cabinet. And if he'd just say nigger, nigger, nigger, nigger, nigger. Every nigger he saw. Boogie, boogie, boogie, boogie, boogie. Nigger, nigger, nigger, nigger, nigger. Till nigger didn't mean anything anymore. Then you'd never be able to make some six year old black kid cry because somebody called him a nigger in school.
- [54:21]
Eli Lake
That gets us in some ways back to Freud's theory that a good joke releases a kind of pent up mental energy that we expend to maintain taboo. Lenny is saying that by exposing the taboo to sunlight, it robs the epithet of its venom. The fact that the N word is unsayable is what gives it its power.
- [54:41]
Joe Rogan
I think that that moment was important because, yes, one way of dealing with hurtful words is to get rid of their sting. And of course the famous way of doing it is that often people call the word take the word on and start using it as a term of affection.
- [54:56]
Eli Lake
Again, this is John McWhorter.
- [54:58]
Joe Rogan
And so there is the other N word. And that the same thing with, if we may dyke with lesbians. But also I think that his idea that if you just say it over and over and especially if you're a white person, then it just gets blunted with wear. What strikes me the most about that moment is that it's now, eons ago, that's what, six decades ago today, frankly, I don't think that that scene could be done in a modern movie. It would be considered too offensive to have. Let's say it was Bradley Cooper. For him to stand there saying the word at all would be considered really profane in the same sense as fuck was to people. And so you couldn't do it then in the 60s he was trying for something. And I think in a way he was more out of the box than we're encountered, than we're encouraged to be today. And by we, I mean people of all American races, not just black people.
- [55:54]
Eli Lake
Whatever the reason, it's clear that not every taboo has washed away. We never escaped these limits on our language. The last time a major white comet uttered the N word was Louis CK in 2005, the margins of acceptable discourse shift over time. And perhaps there is no better example of this than to consider that Lenny Bruce was not prosecuted for saying the N word in the early 1960s. The police did not care about that. They cared about him talking about cox and tits.
- [56:24]
Robert Korn Revere
It is an interesting thing that in the case of the prosecution of Lenny Bruce, it was over the fact that he talked about sex, he talked about religion, he talked about politics. And those were the things and the words that he used to describe them that made him the target of prosecution. And even though he touched on these sensitive racial issues as well, that wasn't what got him into trouble.
- [56:48]
Eli Lake
This is Robert Korn Revere.
- [56:49]
Robert Korn Revere
Again, the very fact that you have to use the expression N word rather than to discuss the word, even though you're using that as part of a question in an intellectual discussion and not using it as an epithet, not using it to hurt somebody, it does mean that there still are taboos.
- [57:10]
Eli Lake
Indeed, a play about Lenny Bruce that was scheduled five years ago to be performed at Brandeis University was canceled because it included an excerpt from that routine that we just played. Perhaps the new norm is a reflection in part of racial progress.
- [57:27]
Mika Brzezinski
It may have always been unacceptable to some, certainly to. To the victims.
- [57:33]
Eli Lake
Again, this is David Scover.
- [57:35]
Mika Brzezinski
But the acceptability of the word, among others, changed as the power and the economic and social and political power of the group altered. So when you are now, when. When. When a. A white college student is. Is sitting in the same Princeton classroom with a black student, that black student is in a far different position. Yes, right. Than the black housekeeper of the 60s. And that is as important to understanding the acceptability or the taboo quality or the power of the N word as anything else.
- [58:27]
Eli Lake
After the break, what does the post woke cultural landscape have in store? So how far will all of this go? Well, consider Kanye West's latest single.
- [58:44]
Dave Chappelle
They don't understand the things I say on Twitter. They don't understand the things I say on Twitter.
- [58:53]
Eli Lake
All of ye's boys are Nazis. Hail Hitler. Yikes. In one sense, the taboos still exist. No major streaming service will carry ye's ode to the Fuhrer. But in another sense, the old guard rails don't matter for a superstar like Kanye. Millions have streamed this track on Twitter and other platforms. You can still find it. I understand that one must separate the art from the artist. I do it all the time. But in this case, the art is quite literally a song that earnestly praises the worst demon of the 20th century, a tyrant who killed 6 million Jews and plunged the world into war. But Kanye's not really an exception. An entire new media universe has cropped up in place of the carefully cultivated and stifling old one. For the new platforms and personalities, gatekeeping does not really apply. I told him, maybe trying to provoke him a little bit, that I thought Churchill was the chief villain of the Second World War. Now, he didn't kill the most people, he didn't commit the most atrocities. But I believe, and I don't really think. I think when you really get into it and tell the story right and don't leave anything out, you see that he was primarily responsible for that war becoming what it did, becoming something other than an invasion of Poland. One consequence of the new vibe shift has been that the once canceled are exploring all kinds of other taboos. We're seeing a new faction, at least of Maga adjacent influencers, exploring their Hitler curiosity. And if this taboo is shattered, how long before a white comedian or podcaster drops an N bomb? Noam Dwarman at least thinks that's quite possible going forward. I talked with him about it last.
- [60:43]
Noam Dwarmin
Week, and we're going to have to decide whether to stand by him or not in the way that people had to decide whether to stand by Lenny Bruce or not. Because attacking the Catholic Church in a Catholic neighborhood in 1962 or something is not any less offensive to the listener than somebody using the N word today, right?
- [61:05]
Eli Lake
And.
- [61:06]
Noam Dwarmin
But I think that people will not defend the guy using the N word today. At least they wouldn't have a few years ago. I think we might be coming around to that happening. Look, here's the thing about that. If it's somebody who's really fucking funny, like really funny, right? And really charming with a sparkle in his eye, and, you know, he might get away with it. It's all that. That's how it will happen. So I can't say for sure, but if you're gonna swing for the fences like that, you gotta hit it out of the park.
- [61:37]
Eli Lake
I mean, you know the price vice pays to talent.
- [61:41]
Noam Dwarmin
Yes, that's a high degree of difficulty thing, but sooner or later, I think somebody is going to, because the comedians can't resist taboos.
- [61:49]
Eli Lake
Noem is right. Comedians can't resist taboos. It's part of their job. It's a codependent relationship, you could say. Taboos in society will always exist. And comedians in America, like Socratic philosophers in ancient Greece, will poke and prod at them to explore why they make us tick. And just as every society will always have some taboos. It's also true that moralists will always be tempted to use coercion and power to enforce new norms. And that brings us back to the vibe shift because there's an irony to this post woke era. The man who rode the anti woke revolt all the way to the White House has himself started to regulate speech that he does not favor.
- [62:37]
Robert Korn Revere
The current fcc, the Federal Communications Commission is using heavy jawboning tactics that is making government threats to try and penalize networks like CBS because they didn't like the way 60 Minutes edited its interview with Kamala Harris right before the election.
- [62:58]
Eli Lake
Again, this is Robert Corn Revere.
- [63:02]
Robert Korn Revere
They are also bringing action against NBC claiming that it violated equal time rules by having Kamala Harris on Saturday Night Live even though NBC well complied with that law by offering time to Trump as a candidate. They are opening or have opened an FCC proceeding against ABC because the moderator the presidential debate had the temerity to fact check Trump on some of his answers. And we're seeing a range of those kinds of activities. I mentioned the Biden administration leaning on social media platforms. One of the first executive orders that Trump issued once he became president was to say that we're going to support free speech and so we're going to look at all those things that Biden did, but not at those pressures that we are bringing to social media platforms. Again, from the fcc, the chairman sent a letter to the presidents of the major tech companies making threats about whether or not they should continue to have immunity under section 230. Pressure is being applied in a number of different ways. And I haven't even gotten to what this administration is doing with universities and deportations and bringing pressure on law firms.
- [64:27]
Eli Lake
Now we should say this is not a repeat of the word crime prosecutions of Lenny Bruce or the Comstock Laws of the late 19th century. But it is nonetheless a use of government power to suppress and punish speech the elected leader of the government doesn't like. There are a number of Trump supporters today who see no problem. The left is willing to shun and marginalize voices that they find distasteful. Why shouldn't the right give them a taste of their own medicine? Well, I doubt it will work. Most Americans don't like being told what they can and can't say the word. Police may win battles, but they inevitably lose the war. Richard Q. And the other district attorneys tried their best to enforce community standards. By targeting Lenny Bruce, they destroyed him. But within a few years of his death, America began its long slouch into obscenity. The way to win a culture war is to persuade the other side of the new taboo, not coerce the rest of us into obedience, whether through the courts, the state, or the threat of cancellation jests survey the wreckage of the Great Awokening. For a few years, the wrongspeak was punished with severity, but in November the dam broke. Now the vulgarians have crashed the gates and become the new gatekeepers.
- [65:51]
Unknown Speaker 1
Mostly peaceful riots, pregnant men.
- [65:55]
Eli Lake
Cancel J.K. rowling. Think again. Thanks for listening to Breaking History. If you liked this episode, if you learned something, if you disagreed with something, or if it simply sparked a new understanding of our present moment, please share it with your friends and family and use it to have a conversation of your own. And remember, if you want to support Breaking History, follow us on Apple, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts and leave us a five star rating and a nice comment too. Also, if you love this episode, there's more great content@thefp.com Please become a subscriber today and until then, I'll see you next time. We are the Free Press.