← Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar
Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar
10/15/25: Saagar Destroys Pete Hegseth, Dems Push Historically Old Sen Candidate, Pakistan Massacres Protesters, Bari Weiss Debunked
01:10:13
Loading summary
Transcript234 lines
- [00:00]
Sponsor/Ad Voice
This is an iHeart podcast.
- [00:04]
Co-host Krystal Ball
Ah, come on. Why is this taking so long? This thing is ancient.
- [00:09]
Sponsor/Ad Voice
Still using yesterday's tech Upgrade to the ThinkPad X1 Carbon Ultra Light ultra powerful and built for serious productivity. With Intel Core Ultra processors, blazing speed and AI powered performance, it keeps up with your business, not the other way around.
- [00:23]
Co-host Saagar Enjeti
Whoa.
- [00:23]
Co-host Krystal Ball
This thing moves.
- [00:24]
Sponsor/Ad Voice
Stop hitting snooze on new tech. Win the tech search@lenovo.com Lenovo Lenovo Unlock AI experience experiences with the ThinkPad X1 carbon powered by Intel Core Ultra processors so you can work, create and boost productivity all on one device.
- [00:43]
The US Electric grid is approaching a breaking point. As demand soars from data centers and home energy use. Our aging infrastructure can't keep up and the Department of Energy warns that without action, blackouts could surge 100 fold by 2030. The good news? One solution is already here. Propane. It's American made, stored on site and always ready. Powering homes and businesses with cleaner, reliable energy that doesn't depend on the grid or the weather. Learn more@probane.com Military life isn't predictable, but.
- [01:14]
Co-host Ryan Grim
Earning your Master's degree can be. With American Military University's 40 + flexible online master's programs, you can stay mission.
- [01:21]
Sponsor/Ad Voice
Ready while you get market ready.
- [01:23]
Co-host Ryan Grim
Learn anywhere, anytime with an education built to keep pace, steady, reliable and always accessible. Plus, military service members, veterans and their families can save up to 45% on.
- [01:34]
Sponsor/Ad Voice
Master'S tuition with AMU's special rates and grants.
- [01:37]
Co-host Ryan Grim
Learn more at AMU Apus Edu Steady.
- [01:41]
Co-host Saagar Enjeti
Through every mission hey guys, Sager and Krystal here.
- [01:44]
Co-host Krystal Ball
Independent Media just played a truly massive role in this election and we are so excited about what that means for the future of this show.
- [01:51]
Co-host Saagar Enjeti
This is the only place where you can find honest perspectives from the left and the right that simply does not exist anywhere else.
- [01:57]
Co-host Krystal Ball
So if that is something that's important to you, Please go to breakingpoints.com but become a member today and you'll get access to our full shows unedited ad free and all put together for you every morning in your inbox.
- [02:08]
Co-host Saagar Enjeti
We need your help to build the future of independent news media and we hope to see you@breakingpoints.com let's get to the Pentagon so that you and I can go off on this one. This has been driving me crazy and Ryan, you and I both have experience.
- [02:25]
Co-host Ryan Grim
Yeah, it's good to be joined by an actual former Pentagon correspondent here.
- [02:28]
Co-host Saagar Enjeti
Thank you. Thank you. A former Pentagon correspondent. One of my proudest moments. My first actual reporting job. So here's what's currently happening. Pete Hegseth and his personal lawyer who he has hired now at the Pentagon.
- [02:41]
Co-host Ryan Grim
Who is sometimes suing the Pentagon.
- [02:42]
Co-host Saagar Enjeti
Who is sometimes suing the Pentagon.
- [02:43]
Co-host Ryan Grim
Like people understand that. Yeah, Pete Hegseth's personal lawyer is suing the Pentagon. Also working at the Pentagon. At the Pentagon.
- [02:51]
Co-host Saagar Enjeti
Okay, so that guy, the guy who defended him in rape accusations and other whatever, who knows what happened. That guy and Pete have concocted new press requirements at the Pentagon where any correspondent who works at the Pentagon has to be forced to sign a 21 page document. That 21 page document. Let's put this up here on the screen. Requires a couple of things. It's more complicated, but this is distilled from the Pentagon. Quote, number one, the press no longer roams free. Number three. Or number two, the press must wear a visible badge. Number three, credentialed press no longer are permitted to solit criminal acts. Let's go through these claims one by one, because this makes sense if you're an idiot and you've never been inside of the Pentagon. All right, number one, as I, as I literally used to cover the Pentagon, you do not roam free in the Pentagon, okay? Believe it or not, it is one of the most secure buildings in the world. I used to cover the White House. The White House is ten times less secure. I could quite literally walk into the high, like, big parts of the West Wing as a reporter without ever being accosted.
- [04:06]
Co-host Ryan Grim
You just open the door.
- [04:08]
Co-host Saagar Enjeti
Exactly. Literally open the door. I could walk right up into the upper press area of the west wing and be 20ft away from the Oval Office without being asked or looked at askance by Secret Service. Yeah, and so that's the first one. Rome free. By Rome free, what he means is that you enter the building, you go through again, more security at the Pentagon than you do to even enter the White House. You walk past a food court, a cvs. It's like a mini building down there. It's like a city. There's like a T mobile store, there's a huge food court. They have like a bunch of gift shops and stuff. Because people spend so much time there. There's all this stuff to do, you know, for all the staff. And then you walk down a hallway and you go to the press area. Every single door is locked and is key controlled. You cannot go into any classified area. I spent a lot of time there. I never once was able to go into a classified area. The theory that he said is like, oh, well, some general could be Walking down the hallway and get accosted by a drone. Didn't see it happen once. Not once once did I see it happen.
- [05:09]
Co-host Ryan Grim
Also, the general can just keep walking.
- [05:11]
Co-host Saagar Enjeti
Also, the general can keep walking. Nobody asked him to answer. Number two. A press must wear visible badge. Okay, can we put D5 up here on the screen? I dug up this old photo of mine of my old badge. Okay, there it is. That badge. Yes, I know. Forgive the dress shirt. It was before I knew some of the rules.
- [05:32]
Co-host Ryan Grim
I think it works.
- [05:33]
Co-host Saagar Enjeti
No, forgive me, whatever. That's my old badge, which I had to wear around my neck with one of my little lanyards. Everywhere that I went. Everywhere that I went. You can see very clearly the badge in front of you. The Pentagon press branded badge. Everybody, by the way, knew who the press was because.
- [05:54]
Co-host Ryan Grim
Little CCP star there.
- [05:55]
Co-host Saagar Enjeti
Yeah, yeah, the little star in the middle of the Pentagon thing. But here's the point. We already had to wear. That is a badge from nine years ago because you could see it expired in August of 2017. So I must have gotten it sometime in August of 2016. So that's what the badge looked like whenever we were rolling around in the Pentagon. Keep in mind, this is under Barack Obama, and eventually I use that badge under the new president, Donald Trump. All right? So that was the Pentagon policy that was in place underneath. Now, the third thing that he claims, and this is where you and I can really go off, is, quote, credentialed press are no longer permitted to solicit criminal acts. What he means by that is that by signing this document, you have to commit, you will not solicit or publish classified information. And in fact, they go even further. It doesn't just apply to classified information, because he's making it seem that it does. It also applies to unclassified information. So effectively, what Pete Hegseth is saying is you cannot enter and cover this building if you do not print exactly what we tell you to do. That is literally what he is saying. Now, let's explain, because I actually got attacked for this. I said soliciting, encouraging people to leak is part of the job. People took that as encouraging people to leak classified information. First of all, yes, that is part of the job. And if you have it, send it over. We'd love to see it.
- [07:16]
Co-host Ryan Grim
You like Seymour Hersh, or do you like.
- [07:18]
Co-host Saagar Enjeti
Yeah, do you like real information or not? But second, encouraging people to leak also falls in the category of the Pentagon makes an announcement. You and I hit up people, or sometimes they hit us up. And I Go, what's really going on here? They go, yeah, man, it's bullshit. You know this, this, and this. And you go, oh, okay. Can I cite that on background that is not classified at all. Usually it's about clarification. Some background information, some behind the scenes. He doesn't even want that to be reported because that would report on the chaos that's in the building for Mr. Hagseth. And what galls me about this are the lies. The lie that the press just roams.
- [07:56]
Co-host Ryan Grim
Free all over the building.
- [07:57]
Co-host Saagar Enjeti
Bullshit. Literally doesn't happen. I'm telling you, it doesn't happen. To cover it. Number two, we didn't wear a badge. I just showed it to you. Had to wear it around my neck every place that we went. Couldn't even enter the building without it, literally. Number three, solicit information. What he would. And I did this all the time. So here's. I know I'm in the weeds and I apologize, but the lack of transparency around this is what causes people to take this type of bullshit seriously. So we, what will happen is, let's take this Venezuela thing. In the old days when I would cover it, especially isis, they would call us in and they would say, we just hit a boat or we just hit an oil refinery by isis. We'd say, okay. And they provide an on the record statement, which is the official version. Then they would go on background where we could not cite them directly and we would say, okay, so what happened here? And they're like, well, here's how we got the information and we got this and that. And then we would ask follow up questions. And then sometimes what you do is if you're a good Pentagon correspondent, you've got source is in Iraq or something like that, and you call them and you're like, hey man, like, here's what the Pentagon is saying. And they're like, oh, that's total bullshit, actually, we did this. And so then what you do, by the way, that would be considered a criminal act or soliciting a criminal act. What you do is you go back to them, you go, hey man, I just spoke to people familiar with the strike. They're saying what you're saying is wrong.
- [09:12]
Co-host Ryan Grim
They said it was a wedding party.
- [09:13]
Co-host Saagar Enjeti
Yeah, they said, right, exactly. It was a wedding party. Or they said it was 50 killed as opposed to 500. Right. And this happens all, all the time. This is the standard part of the job. And they go, yeah, you know, yeah, you got me. Right? And that most of the time is what it was. Or they would scream at you. Which I also got quite a bit when I was down there. That's the job of, quote, soliciting information. They don't even want that. And so they've created this whole brouhaha where they're trying to convince people that it's like a criminal act to solicit clarification. This is a $1 trillion budget. And the worst part is Ryan is even covering it. It's very hard to not be a stenographer because they so limit your access that they make it nearly impossible to print anything which doesn't come from official channel. Unless you're really good at your job. Really, really, really good. Almost everything is gonna come through some official channel, which I would argue works to their benefit. Because the truth is, most of the people who cover the Pentagon are the most neocon people in the world. I mean, think about Barbara Starr. Glenn Greenwald used to joke that she was the Pentagon's reporter at CNN, not the CNN's reporter at the Pentagon. Or what's that woman's name? Jennifer from Fox News, who's always just repeating the pro war with Iran line. They love having those people in the building. Cause they repeat their talking points. They get sources right. It's not like they're even all that antagonistic. Not nearly enough for my purposes. So yeah, I mean, all of it settles, Ryan, on this idea that soliciting classified information is a crime first. No, it's not. It's actually not, but. And if somebody leaks you classified information, that's on them. But even more so, this is really bad because this is the first time since 1943 that there will not be a preponderance of journalists inside of that building or reporting on the Pentagon because they refused to sign their ridiculous agreement.
- [11:12]
Co-host Ryan Grim
Is it still only one America at this point?
- [11:14]
Co-host Saagar Enjeti
Only one America News.
- [11:15]
Co-host Ryan Grim
And so the Washington examiner said no.
- [11:18]
Co-host Saagar Enjeti
My former employer, the Daily Caller, Daily Caller said no.
- [11:20]
Co-host Ryan Grim
Washington Times. Fox News said no Fox News.
- [11:23]
Co-host Saagar Enjeti
Pete Hex says former employer, Fox News.
- [11:25]
Sponsor/Ad Voice
So.
- [11:25]
Co-host Ryan Grim
And your proximate point that this is about covering up the chaos that is bubbling underneath? Pete Hegseth is leadership is key because that's. That's why specifically they're doing it here on the classified documents and classified information. I even take a more expansive view on that. I was interviewing Daniel Ellsberg about this once, and he made the point. He's like, it's not settled law that it's a criminal act to leak, even to leak classified information. It's like the first Amendment does not have A carve out for government employees. Now you can fire a government employee, you can sanction them, you can tell them they can never work for the government again. But his argument is if you are a government employee and you see the government committing a criminal act, your first Amendment right is to speak about that and is to share information about that. Now you could imagine carve outs where you say well treat will treat. And he said treason is different if you sell government information. Yeah, that's a whole other to a foreign country. That's not a, that's not a First amendment protected activity. If you, if it's not newsworthy, it's not criminal and it's. And you're just leaking like nuclear codes or whatever. Like he could, he would say, like that does not have first amendment protections. But newsworthy information that the public has a right to know is not even a criminal act. So even if you don't believe in that expansive of an interpretation, the idea that it's a criminal act for a journalist to call a source and say what do you know about this airstrike where the Pentagon claims They killed 75 insurgents.
- [13:06]
Co-host Saagar Enjeti
And I did this every day when I covered the building. And that's the other funny thing. These people, they hate even being questioned. Their official bullshit narrative. I literally got screamed. He called me a shit stirring fuck face. This was a full bird colonel which at the time I was like 24. I was scared. Right. I'm talking about a frankly fat, overweight full bird colonel with you know, he's got the. What is it called, the oak leaf clusters and that. He's like 58 and he's dressing me down because I was like, hey, I have a source telling me that what you said is incorrect. And they try to intimidate you like thugs. That's what they do.
- [13:46]
Co-host Ryan Grim
Like Full Metal Jacket.
- [13:47]
Co-host Saagar Enjeti
Yeah, it's like it's a rite of passage actually to journalists as learning how to deal with getting screamed at. When I talk to journalism classes, I tell that story because I go, one day you're gonna be in that. And they try to exploit your position in your youth. And you have to internally it's weird getting yelled at, but yeah, exactly. The reason they get mad is cuz they lied to you. That's the whole job. The job is saying no, you're a liar. Actually this entire time. And Ryan, you've published classified information. We published the discord leaks over here, the argument from Hegseth and all those people. Even though all the Republicans were celebrating those discord leaks that we published showing that the Biden administration was lying about the war in Ukraine and the level of Pentagon involvement. Now they're like, oh, you're threatening national security, like you should be prosecuted. That's the argument that Obama actually wanted to make about journalists in Snowden. They wanted people like Glenn to go to jail for even reporting on that. And that's part of the thing that they threw Chelsea Manning into prison for, I guess, after eventually pardoning her or whatever. But the point is, is that that extraordinary view is now the one at the Pentagon. It's so crazy because they have banned basically all journalists from the building if they don't agree to sign, saying that they will basically not clear all the future stories with them and not even ask for clarification on their official readouts.
- [15:12]
Co-host Ryan Grim
Yeah. And it's hopeful that all these organizations are pushing back. They're siding with the Fourth Estate, they're signing with the First Amendment over their kind of ideological affinity. You put up the third element here. Go check out Sager's Twitter feed. He's lighting these people up.
- [15:29]
Co-host Saagar Enjeti
So we'll put this guy on blast. Joel Valdez. Joel Valdez is a deputy press secretary, former Matt Gaetz employee over at the Pentagon. And after one of my tweets where I said, yes, encouraging people to leak is literally the job, he says, quote, we are only enacting good policy here at the Pentagon. Which I replied, here is the irony. Any real journalist knows. And, Ryan, you're 10 times more real than I am. And it's 99.9% of the time the people who leak out reach out to you because they have an axe to grind. In fact, much of the time, it is comm. Flax. Flack, by the way, is a Washington term for people like Joel who are press assistants who don't actually know anything, who are the most desperate to leak on background. Those are the people. The junior press staffer is about 95% the person who's on the other end of the phone. Let me offer you some stuff. Context, right. Some background. And for your use. So just to be able. So that. For your ability to report. These are the phone calls, the types of things that we get. And I encourage Joel to come out and sign a sworn affidavit that you have never leaked information before. And I also want you to say that your former boss, Matt Gaetz, has also never leaked information before and that he is, in fact, not one of those people who has every reporter in this town on speed dialogue.
- [16:45]
Co-host Ryan Grim
And in fact, I'd like him to sign an affidavit that he hasn't leaked about this story.
- [16:49]
Co-host Saagar Enjeti
That's right. That's exactly what I'm saying.
- [16:51]
Co-host Ryan Grim
I guarantee you he's leaking about this specific story.
- [16:56]
Co-host Saagar Enjeti
Joel, I will pay you $1,000 if you can sign a sworn affidavit saying that you've never leaked information, not just classified, any information previously in your job, including in your current role. $1,000. US$1,000. I'd be willing to bet that they can go to.
- [17:13]
Co-host Ryan Grim
If you can't take the money, a charity of his.
- [17:15]
Co-host Saagar Enjeti
Charity of your choice.
- [17:16]
Co-host Ryan Grim
Friends of the idf.
- [17:17]
Co-host Saagar Enjeti
Charity of your choice.
- [17:19]
Co-host Ryan Grim
Okay.
- [17:19]
Co-host Saagar Enjeti
Charity of your choice.
- [17:20]
Co-host Ryan Grim
There are a lot of different charities.
- [17:21]
Co-host Saagar Enjeti
We will take the YouTube revenue from this video and we will use it. We will use it to a charity. Friends of the idf.
- [17:28]
Co-host Ryan Grim
The Friends of the idf.
- [17:29]
Co-host Saagar Enjeti
All you have to do is sign a sworn affidavit.
- [17:30]
Guest/Contributor Olivia Rheingold
That's it.
- [17:31]
Co-host Saagar Enjeti
That's all you have to do. Okay. I don't know anything else to say on this, Ryan. It's.
- [17:35]
Co-host Ryan Grim
No. I'm glad you and Emily are both punching back and the rest of the conservative press, like, that's what has to happen.
- [17:43]
Co-host Saagar Enjeti
Because this was the wet dream of Obama they wanted to do. They tried to throw Fox out of the White House press corps, you know, under Obama, like I just told you, I got dressed down for questioning. Some of the bullshit that they were reporting out about ISIS at the time, they hated us. Hated, you know, at the Pentagon, but they didn't bat us at the end of the day. And our ability to sit there, I would argue, and actually press them a little bit, which is, frankly, one of the best parts of that job is you. In many cases, you get to just question generals, which almost never happens because they'll stream in live from Baghdad. All you have to do is just show up to the room and you can just ask them. Like, I'm talking to you right now. There's a microphone right above my head. Let's say you're coming in, like, via a zoom call, and you can sit there and lob questions at these people, and most of the time, they would not try to censor you. Now, in some cases, like the Secretary of defense or any of that, but it actually used to be one of the more open environments where at the very least on camera, you could question some people in power. Now, keep in mind, Pete, Hecseth secretary, has not done a press conference in four months there over at the Pentagon. And the only time they do is when after it's the Iran strike or something like that. So it's not like we're losing a ton, but it is a. It's a horrible precedent and it is genuinely one, which I think it's the most scary because the Pentagon, that is where all the real shit happens, right? The trillion dollars, the strikes, the most nefarious parts of the federal budget. UFOs, like, the more that they try to make it so that it's all stenography, we are so much worse off. So good thing technology exists. And if you have classified information, send it over, we'd love to see it. And we will publish it.
- [19:28]
Co-host Ryan Grim
Last point I'd make is that transparency currency is a sign of strength.
- [19:31]
Co-host Saagar Enjeti
Yeah, I agree.
- [19:32]
Co-host Ryan Grim
And this tin pot stuff is a sign of weakness.
- [19:34]
Co-host Saagar Enjeti
I totally agree with you. And the irony is, as of this morning, there are three stories out now about Pete Hegseth sidelining lawyers about Venezuela, Pete Hagseth's personal lawyer being part of this whole new media restriction. And about how that lawyer has some previous ties to Epstein. And about how this paranoia is part of the reason why he's being sidelined by the White House. People are still going to leak. In fact, they're probably going to leak more. So by the way, yeah, if that's.
- [20:06]
Co-host Ryan Grim
You, here we are.
- [20:07]
Co-host Saagar Enjeti
Got our signal right here. You have us. Reach out to us both. We'll happily publish it.
- [20:13]
Sponsor/Ad Voice
For period protection, you can put on and forget about nothing. Beats Nyx Leak proof underwear. North America's number one leak proof underwear brand. Let's face it, life can be unpredictable. But your leak proof underwear shouldn't be. That's why millions of people choose Nyx for periods, for light leaks, for everyday freshness. Nick's undies are super comfy, super absorbent, and made to handle whatever your day throws at you. Day two of your period covered your daily run, no problem. That big sneeze? You know the one? Yep. We've got you. And with styles like bikinis, boy shorts, thongs, and high rise plus sizes from extra small to 4XL, NYX makes it easy to find your perfect fit. Say goodbye to stress and leaks. And say hello to undies that work just as hard as you do, no matter the leak. Find the style and level of protection you want@nyx.com and use code flow15 for 15% off. That's kn Ix.com code flow15 for 15% off. Nix. For your leaks, for your life.
- [21:13]
Co-host Krystal Ball
Ugh. Come on. Why is this taking so long? This thing is ancient.
- [21:18]
Sponsor/Ad Voice
Still, using yesterday's tech Upgrade to the ThinkPad X1 Carbon Ultra Light Ultra powerful and built for serious productivity with Intel Core Ultra processors, blazing speed and AI powered performance that keeps up with your business, not the other way around.
- [21:32]
Co-host Krystal Ball
Whoa, this thing moves.
- [21:33]
Sponsor/Ad Voice
Stop hitting snooze on new tech. Win the tech search@lenovo.com Lenovo Lenovo unlock AI experiences with the ThinkPad X1 carbon powered by Intel Core Ultra processors so you can work, create and boost productivity all on one device.
- [21:52]
The US Electric grid is approaching a breaking point. As demand soars from data centers and home energy use, our aging infrastructure can't keep up. And the Department of Energy warns that without action, blackouts could surge 100 fold by 2030. The good news? One solution is already here. Propane. It's American made, stored on site and always ready. Powering homes and businesses with cleaner, reliable energy that doesn't depend on the grid or the weather. Learn more@probane.com.
- [22:22]
Co-host Saagar Enjeti
Let'S get to Maine. Ryan, tell us what's going on man.
- [22:26]
Co-host Ryan Grim
Janet Mills, after much speculation and much recruitment on the part of Senator Chuck Schumer, announced that she is jumping into the race. She's the current Democratic governor of the state of Maine. She'll be running against Susan Collins. If she can get through a Democratic primary, she would be the oldest senator to ever take her first oath of office. The Senate is an old folks home in Washington. To be able to set an age record in the United States Senate this deep into its history is nothing short of extraordinary. She'd be 79 when sworn in. She'd be, you do the math, 85 when she finished her first term. And she's running of course against Graham Platner, an oysterman, veteran of both the Marines and the Army. At one point, as people on the left are getting starting to look at with raised eyebrows, was a worked with Blackwater, but has spent the last 10 years as an as an oysterman, an oyster farmer and has run as a kind of populist, anti war, anti genocide Canada. Just one of these baritone truth speaking guys and there was hope among Democrats that the party leadership had seen that running the same kind of milquetoast Democrats around the country, and particularly in Maine against Susan Collins, who has beaten five of these types. Yes, fairly easily that they had seen that. Like we need something different. Maybe we need these tatted up guys that we don't understand who just answer questions with yeses and nos when they're asked.
- [24:14]
Guest/Contributor Olivia Rheingold
Right.
- [24:15]
Co-host Ryan Grim
Maybe we need that. That hope was dashed by the Democratic party jumping so fulsomely behind Janet Mills, let's roll a little bit of Governor Mills here was E1. What do you say to people who say what we really need now in the Democratic Party is younger leadership? And while Governor Mills has been a great governor, she's 77 years old and we need younger leadership. What's your response to people who say.
- [24:40]
Governor Janet Mills
That it's a fair point and it's a legitimate consideration? God knows it's a consideration for me and has been these many months I've been thinking about it and people have been urging me to run regardless of my age. But you know what? I don't think I could live with myself if I didn't do everything I can to reverse what's going on in Washington, things that are harming Maine people. Sure, I could go, you know, I'm not a rich person by any means, but I could just retire, go to my camp and fish and read books for the rest of my life, I guess. But boy, I couldn't live with myself if I did that. Not when the times are so urgent, so dangerous and things are happening that are threatening the health and welfare of Maine people every day. I can't live with that. And so I have the energy and the time and I want to give.
- [25:28]
Co-host Ryan Grim
It my best shot if there's some Democratic cope to be had out there. Ben Jacobs posted it. If you can put up E2, he says, look on the bright side here. She would only be what she's younger than 11 sitting senators. So she'd be only the 12th oldest.
- [25:49]
Co-host Saagar Enjeti
So she would be the oldest freshman in history, but the 12th oldest sitting senator. What does that tell you about our.
- [25:57]
Co-host Ryan Grim
System by starting out? Because the Senate is a place you go and you build seniority.
- [26:03]
Co-host Saagar Enjeti
The Senate is a place where it's more dignified to die of Alzheimer's. You don't enter at Alzheimer's age. Okay, I didn't say that she had Alzheimer's. I'm just saying it's more dignified to spend a decades long career there and then to die if basically wheelchair, bedridden and Alzheimer's ridden. You're not supposed to enter at the age where all of that is a possibility. But I guess records are meant to be broken. Records are meant to be broken. And that is what Governor Mills it's.
- [26:33]
Co-host Ryan Grim
An amazing response from the Democrats because they've been getting so much pressure from their base about weakness, not rethinking their strategy. And Biden's age was something that Democrats kept telling their base was not something they should be concerned about. And so they thought, okay, well, maybe, maybe they are doing something different here. They've got this guy, Graham Platner, he's really interesting, running in Maine. And no, they come in and find the person who would be the oldest freshman senator in history. So here's E3. Here's the case she's making in her launch, folks.
- [27:10]
Governor Janet Mills
Do you want Democrats to take back the Senate? Well, I'm Governor Janet Mills and I'm running to flip Maine's Senate seat blue. And Susan Collins has sold out Maine and bowed down to special interests and to Donald Trump. But that ends now. So chip in $5 today and let's win this.
- [27:27]
Co-host Ryan Grim
And I think if she were wildly popular, a lot of partisan Democrats would be like, okay, all right, we'll take one more super old person in the Senate. What's it matter? Like, she's definitely gonna beat Susan Collins, and that's really what matters. Whereas polls that match Platner against Collins and Mills against Collins show that Platner has much more upside, like significantly more upside against Collins, because Platner can pull from independents and Republicans in a way that Mills can't. Mills is a well known figure in Maine. Yeah, she's a governor. You like her or you don't.
- [28:03]
Co-host Saagar Enjeti
But let's give the caveats. All right, Maine, insanely hard state to poll. Remember, Susan Collins opponent at 7 or something was up by 7. How much did Susan Collins win by 6?
- [28:14]
Sponsor/Ad Voice
13.
- [28:15]
Co-host Ryan Grim
A lot.
- [28:15]
Co-host Saagar Enjeti
It was a 13 point differential. Notoriously one of the hardest states to poll. I am curious how much this will be a test then of Democratic leadership and of name ID versus, you know, a social media, more driven campaign like Graham Platner, for example. One of the things that the governor has on her side is that the Chuck Schumer machine is now throwing behind her entire. Let's put this up here on the screen. It's actually super interesting. So the DSCC and Janet Mills have formed a joint fundraising committee together called the Maine Senate victory fund for 2026. But before we even get to Platner's response, you gotta explain what that means, because that's effectively an endorsement without an endorsement.
- [29:02]
Co-host Ryan Grim
Yes, basically it is that endorsement. And what it does is it opens up a campaign finance mechanism that allows big money to flow into a vehicle that can be used to support Janet Mills. And so that means all of the New York donors and in particular people have been like, why won't Hakeem Jeffries and Chuck Schumer just come out and like, condemn Netanyahu? What he's doing, like, why do they keep doing this very unpopular thing? And the answer for a lot of it is the donors that are going to fund the national effort to take back the Senate don't want them to do it. So it's these kinds of donors who are then going to flood the main Senate race with money. And they can go much beyond the individual max that would, you know, you're capped out at, like, you know, 7,600 or whatever for, like, primary in general. But with this joint victory fund, you can give a lot more money. And so this means that she'll have all the money that she'll need in the primary. Platner has raised, I think, $4 million from small donors, basically, since launching his campaign. He'll probably raise another million from Janet Mills. Getting in from people being so angry. You're seeing people come out and endorse David Hogg's group, actually the College Democrats of America, which are usually a pretty kind of party alliance.
- [30:30]
Co-host Saagar Enjeti
Yeah, they go.
- [30:31]
Co-host Ryan Grim
They go along because they're careerists. Yeah, they used to be. These College Democrats are different now.
- [30:36]
Co-host Saagar Enjeti
Interesting.
- [30:37]
Co-host Ryan Grim
Like, they're actually really. I didn't know that. So they just endorsed Graham Platner, which is interesting because these are kids who want jobs with Chuck Schumer.
- [30:45]
Co-host Saagar Enjeti
Right. Well, maybe they.
- [30:47]
Co-host Ryan Grim
Now they're going against.
- [30:47]
Co-host Saagar Enjeti
It must be different.
- [30:48]
Co-host Ryan Grim
They are.
- [30:49]
Co-host Saagar Enjeti
Right. Because the college dams that you and I grew up with were the most, like Hillary, you know, John Kerry.
- [30:54]
Co-host Ryan Grim
We had the president, vice president on the show. These are. These are not party hacks anymore.
- [30:59]
Co-host Saagar Enjeti
Fascinating.
- [31:00]
Co-host Ryan Grim
And so they're David Hogg's behind Plat. So I saw Charlotte Clymer endorsed as a Democratic operative, saying, like, I wasn't. She said I wasn't going to endorse. But seeing the DSCC get in is infuriating. And so I'm endorsing Graham Platner. We can read Graham Platner's response. It's almost a gift to him in some ways. He says Chuck Schumer should be focused on fighting. It's the same side. I mean, in the same element. Chuck Schumer should be focused on fighting Donald Trump and protecting health care for millions of Americans, not meddling in a Maine primary. DC's choice has lost to Susan Collins five times in a row. We can't afford a sixth. So I actually think that there's some real advantage to Platner here because he now solidifies his brand as independent of the Democratic Party establishment. Like, they are literally running somebody against him to try to stop him in a country and in. Particularly in a state where fealty towards the party establishment is seen as a demerit, that's actually. That actually would be a benefit. I think Mamdani is actually boosted in the public perception by the fact that Hakeem Jeffries and Chuck Schumer won't endorse him because it makes him look more independent. Like, this guy's serious here. So if he can beat Janet Mills, then I think he actually comes into the prime, comes into the general against Collins much stronger among independents and Republicans than if he had just kind of coasted to the primary victory. For people that haven't seen him speak, here's a little clip. We can roll the next sot. This is Platner. Can you please share your feelings on Price?
- [32:44]
Prime Minister Shabazz Sharif
So right now, armed masked secret police are going around the country kidnapping American citizens. Kidnapping people that are here illegally abusing people because of the color of their skin. It's disgusting. One of the reasons I want to go to the Senate is that when we have power again, I want to haul all of these people and the ones that made them do it in front of a Senate subcommittee, make them.
- [33:17]
Co-host Saagar Enjeti
Take the mask shot.
- [33:20]
Prime Minister Shabazz Sharif
The American people, how they can justify their illegal and unconstitutional behavior.
- [33:26]
Co-host Saagar Enjeti
There's Mr. Plattner now. Okay, we have enough time so we can have the debate. I'm not saying what he said there was bad. However, Mr. Platner, I've had beef with Mr. Plattner since he posted a certain viral video where he had a constituent because I know he listens to the show, by the way. So free advice for, you know, we don't have it right now. Crystal and I have argued about it in the past. He was asked specifically about illegals taking health care benefits by like a.
- [33:52]
Co-host Ryan Grim
An immigrant Buy it? Yeah, by person at a town hall. Sure.
- [33:55]
Co-host Saagar Enjeti
We can call it anti immigrant for your purpose.
- [33:57]
Co-host Ryan Grim
Not a friend of his. Right?
- [33:59]
Co-host Saagar Enjeti
Yes. Yeah, by somebody who was. Okay. And his response was. And this was celebrated by the left.
- [34:05]
Co-host Ryan Grim
And they clipped it.
- [34:07]
Co-host Saagar Enjeti
They clipped it and they posted. His response was we can't blame her cuz she's getting bad information. Now there is a concept amongst Republicans, something known as the hicklib, which is somebody who is in a rural Republican area but is a shit lib through and through. I personally would argue that yes, his affectation and all of that is great. But is it not the most elite lib coded response in the world to say that your belief is because of a lack of information and a lack of education? To me that Is one of the most condescending things that you could ever say about somebody is that because they are basically an uneducated shit, basically a Fox News watcher or whatever, that that is where the belief that the mindset is one where you can only hold that belief if you are uneducated. That is the definition of a hclib and elite liberal response. And no wonder it went viral amongst a bunch of New York City liberals and a bunch of other people who.
- [35:11]
Co-host Ryan Grim
Are living in Brooklyn who are like.
- [35:13]
Co-host Saagar Enjeti
Yeah, he's school and these hicks who are out there in the middle of Maine. So I'm curious for your response. I'm curious for your response.
- [35:20]
Co-host Ryan Grim
So don't tell me how Crystal responded because I, I don't want to be. Don't tell me yet, tell me afterwards. I agree with you. I would not have said it and I definitely would not have clipped it as representative of the way that I wanted to talk to independents and Republicans because it is a matter of fact that something like 8 million ish people came across the border in a historic fashion under the Biden administration. Like that happened. Yeah, she's not wrong about that.
- [35:51]
Co-host Saagar Enjeti
Yeah, it's literally a fact.
- [35:52]
Co-host Ryan Grim
So to tell her that she's wrong about that now.
- [35:56]
Co-host Saagar Enjeti
Well, she was talking about healthcare. Healthcare, specifically dollars.
- [36:00]
Co-host Ryan Grim
Right.
- [36:00]
Co-host Saagar Enjeti
Now I will tell you what Crystal said and I don't even necessarily. Well, I do disagree with it, but what she said, just to be entirely fair, was that you hold that position because you're being sold a different story and that the response is not to pit people against each other. It's to create a universal system so that people are not feeling as if they're. Now my response was we have to live in a world of finite resources and we can't live in one where a bunch of people who are not even high school educated from Guatemala get to come here and get free healthcare. I think that's fucking nuts personally. But my point is that that platinum response seems literally cooked in a lab to appeal to a bunch of liberals idea of what a hiclib is supposed to look like in Brooklyn or elsewhere. He was like, yeah, he's schooling these uneducated. I don't know, it's incredibly condescending to me personally that somebody could only hold that belief if because they're uneducated. It's frankly preposterous. And so I don't know, that's my one thing of a hold up. It all just seems too good to be true. The affectation, the lobster fisherman. I looked a little Bit into his background. Like you said, he served in Blackwater. That's like. That sounds a little weird, but I lived here in dc, went to gw, the same school as me. So it's like, okay, well, maybe we're not so far apart there, Mr. Graham, in terms of living in the big city before we went back to fish lobster. It's like, maybe that's where the ideology comes from. That's my personal suspicion anytime I see something like this. The last person who reminded me of this was John Fetterman. And so I would remind you all. How did that work out?
- [37:32]
Co-host Ryan Grim
As I've. As I've said before, I knew him when he was a bartender to tune in back, oh, wow, 20 years ago, throwback. And so I think he's always been. I don't think he had to evolve to this new position. He does suffer from the comparison with Fetterman because Fetterman betrayed the left so fundamentally. Not just the left, the Democratic Party. Fetterman's approval rating with Democrats is wildly underwater. Like Kyrsten Sinema levels are worse.
- [38:01]
Co-host Saagar Enjeti
Yes.
- [38:02]
Co-host Ryan Grim
Platner just keeps saying, all I can do is prove to you that I'm not John Fetterman. And he will tell you directly. And he says it a lot. I'm not.
- [38:09]
Co-host Saagar Enjeti
I don't think he's John Fetterman. I don't. But I'm just saying that is the only person in modern memory who I can think of who had the same affectation and the same, oh, he's wears his little hoodie. He wears his hoodie. He's one of us only to come in. And I mean, who knows what happened to him. But with the injury, but eventually just becoming like pro Israel, basically Republican.
- [38:35]
Co-host Ryan Grim
Fetterman was a rich guy who went to Harvard.
- [38:37]
Co-host Saagar Enjeti
Yes.
- [38:38]
Co-host Ryan Grim
And then became mayor of a small town with his dad's money or whatever and had to put a lot of this on.
- [38:44]
Co-host Saagar Enjeti
Whereas I'm glad we can admit all of us now also, by the way, huge weed head. Just saying.
- [38:50]
Co-host Ryan Grim
Whereas Platner, genuinely middle class, actually served in.
- [38:55]
Co-host Saagar Enjeti
I'm not denigrating the man personally. He served the country.
- [38:58]
Co-host Ryan Grim
Those are different.
- [38:58]
Co-host Saagar Enjeti
Or any of that. I'm saying that the ideology which leads one to say that a person who has a different belief than you can only be because of lack of education is quite literally the mindset that lost Democrats the election and is the ideology of the people who make $150,000 a year and think that because they went to state school that they're better than everybody else. Right. That's all I'm saying.
- [39:19]
Co-host Ryan Grim
It's elitist, and it's. In the Marxist world. They call it, like, false consciousness. Oh, interesting that you're accusing someone of. They have the wrong consciousness that they ought to have because they're just deluded for different reasons. Propagandized, et cetera. Of course, there is a lot of propaganda around immigration, so I can understand an attempt to try to thread the needle on that. What I would have done on that particular one is what I've said before, is that hospitals are required to serve everybody. If people come in uninsured, we all pay. It's just better to. It's actually better to insure people. But the Democratic bill does not allow people who are illegally to be covered. Frankly, it should, for the reasons I just said. We want to save our rural hospitals, or you want them to go under? That aside, there's an interesting contrast going on about who populist Democrats are going to be between Platner and Dan Osborne. And Dan Osborne is not Democrat, actual independent, but he takes a harder line on immigration.
- [40:22]
Co-host Saagar Enjeti
Well, he's in a deep red state, right? He's in an R +50 state or something. I don't know the actual number. I'd have to go back and check, but I don't know how much.
- [40:29]
Co-host Ryan Grim
And so he's like, look, I want.
- [40:30]
Co-host Saagar Enjeti
A secure border, right?
- [40:32]
Co-host Ryan Grim
And he's willing to just. And he basically just pushes that issue aside. He's like, yeah, I want a secure border. And then he will say he does not support, like, masked thugs going around scooping people up.
- [40:45]
Co-host Saagar Enjeti
I mean, Klattner's on better ground, if I'm being honest. Like, here's the truth. Kamala won the state 52, 45 to Trump. Trump lost it by seven points. Like, that's a lot. Okay, so you're already living in a state where Susan Collins is much more of an outlier. And so, yeah, I mean, it does kind of make sense to basically be a lib who's got, you know, the culturally connect. Who can culturally connect? I mean, that doesn't seem disconnected at all. Like, it seems to me like any Democrat's probably gonna win the state in this environment. I just personally found that clip as if it was some great new invention by the lab. I'm like, you know, to be honest, again, I think that is quite literally the epitome of the problem with elite liberalism is you can only hold a different belief because you're uneducated.
- [41:29]
Co-host Ryan Grim
Reminded me a little bit of when McCain said about Obama no, ma'. Am. No, he's not an Arab.
- [41:36]
Co-host Saagar Enjeti
Oh, I do remember that.
- [41:37]
Co-host Ryan Grim
He's a good man. Yes. And people at the time, like, all applauded it.
- [41:40]
Co-host Saagar Enjeti
Right.
- [41:41]
Co-host Ryan Grim
But at the same time, we're like, are you saying that an Arab can't be a good man?
- [41:45]
Co-host Saagar Enjeti
Yeah, good, good point. I remember that. I remember that well, actually, because lots of Arabs. Like I said, he got a lot of praise. She's like, no, man. No, he's a good man.
- [41:54]
Co-host Ryan Grim
And you're like, he's a good man.
- [41:55]
Co-host Saagar Enjeti
You're like, wait, what?
- [41:56]
Co-host Ryan Grim
That's kind of a weird quote.
- [41:57]
Co-host Saagar Enjeti
Yeah. What do you mean by that? Maybe we'll give him the benefit of the doubt.
- [42:02]
Co-host Ryan Grim
We did. Because the bar was so low.
- [42:04]
Co-host Saagar Enjeti
The bar was low. That's true. I mean, I guess he did prove it out because his life's mission was to bomb as many as he personally.
- [42:11]
Co-host Ryan Grim
That's true. So whatever.
- [42:12]
Co-host Saagar Enjeti
All right, last thing. You've got a big update for us on Pakistan. I'm just going to sit back and let you roll.
- [42:20]
Sponsor/Ad Voice
For period protection, you can put on and forget about nothing. Beats Nyx Leak proof underwear. North America's number one leak proof underwear brand. Let's face it, life can be unpredictable. But your leak proof underwear shouldn't be. That's why millions of people choose Nyx for periods. For light leaks, for everyday freshness. Nyx undies are super comfy, super absorbent, and made to handle whatever your day throws at you. Day two of your period covered your daily run no problem. That big sneeze? You know the one? Yep. We've got you. And with styles like bikinis, boy shorts, thongs and high rise plus sizes from extra small to 4XL, NYX makes it easy to find your perfect fit. Say goodbye to stress and leaks. And say hello to undies that work just as hard as you do, no matter the leak. Find the style and level of protection you want@nyx.com and use code flow15 for 15% off. That's knix.com code flo15 for 15% off. Nyx for your leaks. For your life.
- [43:21]
Co-host Krystal Ball
Ugh. Come on. Why is this taking so long? This thing is ancient.
- [43:25]
Sponsor/Ad Voice
Still using yesterday's tech Upgrade to the ThinkPad X1 Carbon Ultra Light, ultra powerful and built for serious productivity. With Intel Core Ultra processors, blazing speed and AI powered performance, it keeps up with your business, not the other way around.
- [43:39]
Co-host Saagar Enjeti
Whoa.
- [43:39]
Co-host Krystal Ball
This thing moves.
- [43:40]
Sponsor/Ad Voice
Stop hitting snooze on new tech. Win the tech search@lenovo.com lenovo Lenovo unlock AI experiences with the ThinkPad X1 carbon, powered by Intel Core Ultra processors so you can work, create and boost productivity all on one device.
- [43:59]
The US Electric grid is approaching a breaking point. As demand soars from data centers and home energy use, our aging infrastructure can't keep up. And the Department of Energy warns that without action, blackouts could surge 100 fold by 2030. The good news, one solution is already here. Propane. It's American made, stored on site and always ready, powering homes and businesses with cleaner, reliable and energy that doesn't depend on the grid or the weather. Learn more@probane.com so we have a genuinely.
- [44:30]
Co-host Ryan Grim
Extraordinary story developing out of Pakistan that really almost defies belief. Walk you guys through this role F2 here. Incredible amounts of violence unfolded outside of Lahore this week. This is. These are policemen chasing down a pro Palestine protester, trying to shoot him in the back. Other there's much worse video that has emerged online, though very, very little has been reported about this anywhere. Whether it's Pakistan media, which is entirely locked down, or around the world. We are hearing that the death count could well be over a thousand people. And just try to sit with the extent of the massacre that we're talking about here before we get into the details, the context here is that this happened. This started right around the exact same time that Pakistan's Prime Minister Shabbat Sharif was in Egypt with the rest of the Arab and Muslim countries celebrating the ceasefire deal. And these things are not disconnected at all. Shabazz Sharif is in power because they flagrantly stole the election back in February of 2024 and have Imran Khan in prison. The United States has been dangling the threat of supporting the release of Imran Khan to basically corner Pakistan's military. Pakistan's military is currently in control. They operate through Shabazz Sharif, but they operate at the, at the blessing and the courtesy of the United States, which at any moment could basically signal you have to let Imran Khan out. And so Pakistan's military basically is doing anything the United States wants as a result. So let's roll for the just to understand what's happening in Egypt while this extraordinary violence is unfolding in Pakistan. Let's roll F6.
- [46:29]
Prime Minister Shabazz Sharif
Prime Minister Sharif of Pakistan.
- [46:33]
Co-host Ryan Grim
And also, I have to say, my favorite field marshal from Pakistan, who's not here, but the prime minister is here and you're going to give his regards.
- [46:41]
Prime Minister Shabazz Sharif
Where are you? There you go.
- [46:43]
Guest/Contributor Olivia Rheingold
Thank you very much.
- [46:45]
Co-host Ryan Grim
Do you want to say what you said to me the other day? Would you like to say what you said the other day, I think it was so nice.
- [46:52]
Prime Minister Shabazz Sharif
Pakistan had nominated President Donald Trump for Nobel Peace Prize for his outstanding, extraordinary contributions to first stop war between India and Pakistan and then achieve ceasefire along with his very wonderful team. And today, again, I would like to nominate this great president for Nobel Peace Prize because I genuinely feel that he is the most genuine and most wonderful candidate for peace prize because he has brought not only peace in South Asia, saved millions of people their lives.
- [47:59]
Co-host Ryan Grim
So Shabazz Sharif is kind of infamous in Pakistan for those obsequious and kind of embarrassing speeches that he gives to people like Trump or Gulf leaders or basically anybody that Pakistan needs money from or needs political cover from. But so the party in question here is known in Pakistan that was the victim of this massacre, known as the tlp. So TLP are basically a product of the Pakistan military over the years. So when you have a military dictatorship, in order to kind of stay in power over the decades, they create all of these different political factions that have some tiny bit of independence, but are effectively run either by the ISI or the Pakistan military or both. And TLP is one of them. And TLP is, these are hardcore far right religious fundamentalists that could be deployed, you know, for different, you know, strategic or tactical reasons by the, by the Pakistan military. And so to say that there are not a lot of good guys in this story would be an understatement. Like, usually when the TLP is out there protesting, it's to try to like, you know, get somebody executed for having an affair or having a nose ring or something. Like, not, not, not the kind of people that make sympathetic figures in, you know, to, to Western liberals like myself, for instance. Yet. So the TLP was deployed here to protest against the Gaza war and to protest a little bit about Pakistan getting a little closer to Israel and hinting at some type of normalization here. Saad Rizvi, who's the head of the tlp, announced his protests during his Friday prayers. Well, then you might be thinking, wait a minute, tlp, which is a creation of the Pakistan military, is going to be protesting against Pakistan? Like, what on earth is going on here? And this is where it gets so diabolical. And what I'm going to share is basically our analysis, but it's highly informed by people with serious knowledge about what's going on here. So why on earth would the military encourage protests against itself? Well, one is obvious on the geopolitical stage. It would be a way to tell the U.S. like, don't push us too Hard when it comes to, like, normalization with Israel, because, look, we've got problems back at home. That's only one little part of it, though. I think what's really going on goes Back to this November 26, 2024, protest in support of Imran Khan. You had thousands of people come out into the streets. We cover it here saying, free Imran Khan. The security forces massacred huge numbers of people. And we published here exclusive video and other documents that we had gotten that showed the extent of the massacre and also that it was planned and organized ahead of time by the security services, that this was not something that got out of hand. They deliberately instigated this. And the violent crackdown basically wiped out public protest on behalf of Imran Khan. And so I think the. So the military saw. We know for a fact they saw this as a success. So what they did is they're playing that card again, but this time with the TLP to get them under control. So what they're signaling here is that if we do move forward, as we move forward with better relations with Israel, under pressure from the US There will be no protesting against this. And so it was Monday, Monday morning. And you can roll. I think it's. You can just roll this as. As I'm talking here, some of the footage that did emerge out of Pakistan. So the march was supposed to go initially to Lahore. With negotiations, they were able to persuade the marchers to move instead to Maridki, which is a town kind of north of Lahore, where there's less base of support for the tlp. And you then have this outbreak of shooting and shelling. One person said they saw more than 600 bodies on the ground, like absolute carnage. Saad Rizvi sent a negotiating team before this broke out to try to settle this. That negotiating team was arrested. He organized another negotiating team, sent them in. It happened anyway, right up until the violence started. He was pleading for this not to go down. We understand that the decision had been. Had already been made that they were going to carry out this violent crackdown to send this signal that there will be no pushback against this. The fact that. So we did find some coverage of it in Pakistan media, which is aligned with the military, so, like, controlled by the military. And that really tells you a lot because it's like, okay, if they are allowed to report on this. And this is where we saw the interview with somebody saying that more than they saw 600 bodies, like, why is the Pakistan military allowing that to be aired? Because it's a signal in Other words, what good is a spectacular display of violence against protesters if you don't tell the country about it? So they're very carefully balancing the amount of information that gets out about this massacre so that everyone in Pakistan knows that it happened so that they understand you will not protest for Palestine. But not so much gets out that there's international pressure on them, that there's international condemnation of it. And that's a very tight rope to walk.
- [54:07]
Co-host Saagar Enjeti
It seems to have worked so far.
- [54:09]
Co-host Ryan Grim
They're walking it. This was Monday. Today's Wednesday, but it's still going on. So after this, after the massacre in the streets, you started having house raids of all these TLP people, which, again, like, it's interesting because a lot of Pakistanis don't like tlp. They're like, these guys are thugs and goons and, like, they're mobs that go around, like, stoning people. So we don't have any sympathy for them. As one person I talked to said, this is the first time they protest something good and also the first time they get massacred or did something good. And so that's where we are now. Very like. And they are walking the rope, like there is right now. This is basically the only coverage. We'll have a story at drop site about this. This is basically the only coverage that you're seeing around the world of this massacre. That could be, like, more than a thousand people getting killed. That is a ton of people.
- [55:09]
Co-host Saagar Enjeti
It's usually a huge story, like, report.
- [55:11]
Co-host Ryan Grim
The reports about bodies just getting thrown into trucks and doused with chemicals. Like, it's horrifying, and it's deeply horrifying to think that something like this can happen and nobody even knows about it.
- [55:25]
Co-host Saagar Enjeti
Actually, while you're talking, Ryan, there's some. I'll get your live reaction. Pakistani Air Force carried out a wave of airstrikes against Taliban affiliated sites and military bases in Kabul and throughout other provinces.
- [55:37]
Co-host Ryan Grim
Yeah. So this comes.
- [55:38]
Co-host Saagar Enjeti
What's up with that? So very recent. I thought they supported the Taliban. They funded them now.
- [55:42]
Co-host Ryan Grim
Yeah, yeah. When they were fighting.
- [55:43]
Co-host Saagar Enjeti
I can't keep up.
- [55:44]
Co-host Ryan Grim
They funded. They backed the Taliban when the Taliban were fighting the US Right.
- [55:47]
Co-host Saagar Enjeti
Of course. While we gave Pakistan money to do that. Makes a lot of sense.
- [55:51]
Co-host Ryan Grim
Right. Because then we would, like. It was their argument for why they. We needed to fund them. Yeah. Because look at these terrorists out there. Don't you want us to fight them? And they're funding the terrorists. Yes, very. It's just. It's just these conspiracies and games like all the way down. It's crazy, but yeah. So a couple weeks ago or less, there was border clashes where the Taliban killed something like more than 50 Pakistani soldiers. Like serious, serious conflict because Pakistan has been saber rattling at the Taliban and suggesting that they are going to do regime change in Kabul and throw the Taliban. It's like, wait, hold on, you're gonna do what? How are you gonna do that? So, yeah, so this is in line, his favorite field marshal, by the way, his name's Asimani. That's who Trump is referring to there. And he's the guy that actually runs the country. This is his strategy. So he's been using extreme amounts of violence against the crackdown on the FBI, the Iran Khan folks, now the TLP folks, and then now here. And he's really feeling it for two reasons. One is that he now has the unquestioned, not unquestioned, but he has full throated support of the Trump administration. So this fear that Imran Khan was going to get released and he'd be in trouble is subsiding. And they feel very good about how the India Pakistan war went for them, that they stood up to India and got through it and had support from the US as in it, India is like everybody who follows Indian politics says, like, India is going to hit Pakistan again very soon.
- [57:34]
Co-host Saagar Enjeti
Well, they're still very angry. That's why they don't accept the US Narrative of the peace deal. They're like, there is no peace.
- [57:40]
Co-host Ryan Grim
Right. It's just no pause. We're hitting them again.
- [57:42]
Co-host Saagar Enjeti
Right.
- [57:43]
Co-host Ryan Grim
So Asimani might be proud of the way he's navigated this so far, but to have a two front war, Afghanistan and India, while also cracking down on your fundamentalist right and your populist faction of Imran Khan supporters, if you're India.
- [58:08]
Co-host Saagar Enjeti
You'Re like, now's the time.
- [58:10]
Co-host Ryan Grim
Yeah, yeah, hit him. This guy's hit him hard. Yeah. So I don't think we've seen the last of this situation, that's for sure.
- [58:17]
Co-host Saagar Enjeti
Well, thank you for the update, Ryan, as always, our resident Pakistan correspondent. You know, I thought I knew a lot about Pakistan until I met this guy. Yes, it's the best part. Okay, now we're gonna throw to a pre recorded segment that Ryan did about the free press's supposed debunking of the Gaza famine narrative. Ryan and the dropside team did some excellent journalism and reached out to many of the families involved. Lo and behold, all of them were decimated by famine. They got actual interviews on the record. So let's Go ahead and throw to that and then we will also see you all later.
- [58:49]
Sponsor/Ad Voice
For period protection you can put on and forget about nothing. Beats Nyx Leakproof Underwear North America's number one leak proof underwear brand. Let's face it, life can be unpredictable but your leak proof underwear shouldn't be. That's why millions of people choose Nyx for periods, for light leaks, for everyday freshness. Nyx undies are super comfy, super absorbent and made to handle whatever your day throws at you. Day two of your period covered your daily run. No problem. That big sneeze? You know the one? Yep, we've got you. And with styles like bikinis, boy shorts, thongs and high rise plus sizes from extra small to 4XL, NYX makes it easy to find your perfect fit. Say goodbye to stress and leaks and say hello to undies that work just as hard as you do, no matter the leak. Find the style and level of protection you want@nyx.com and use code flow15 for 15% off. That's K-N-I x.com code flow15 for 15% off NYX for your leaks for your life.
- [59:49]
Co-host Krystal Ball
Ah come on. Why is this taking so long? This thing is ancient.
- [59:53]
Sponsor/Ad Voice
Still using yesterday's tech Upgrade to the ThinkPad X1 Carbon Ultra Light, Ultra powerful and built for serious productivity with Intel Core Ultra processors, blazing speed and AI powered performance. Performance, it keeps up with your business, not the other way around.
- [60:07]
Co-host Krystal Ball
Whoa, this thing moves.
- [60:09]
Sponsor/Ad Voice
Stop hitting snooze on new tech. Win the tech search@lenovo.com Lenovo Lenovo unlock AI experiences with the ThinkPad X1 carbon powered by Intel Core Ultra processors so you can work, create and boost productivity all on one device.
- [60:27]
The US Electric grid is approaching a breaking point as demand soars from data centers and home energy use. Our aging infrastructure can't keep up and the Department of Energy warns that without action, blackouts could surge 100 fold by 2030. The good news? One solution is already here. Propane. It's American made, stored on site and always ready. Powering homes and businesses with cleaner, reliable energy that doesn't depend on the grid or the weather. Learn more@probane.com.
- [60:59]
Co-host Ryan Grim
We have a new story over at Dropsite News written with my colleague Maha Hussaini, that looks into the infamous reporting that the Free Press did into what they said were a dozen cases of Palestinians who they claimed had been unfairly elevated as examples of famine in Gaza. The article was titled they became symbols for Gazan starvation, but all 12 suffer from other health problems now, we discovered something very strange when we first started looking into this, and we don't have to dwell on this. They don't look into 12 cases they don't like. Unless they did and just didn't publish it. And we asked them for comment. We have not gotten comment on this bizarre discrepancy doesn't fundamentally undermine their reporting by itself. But they said they were going to look into 12 cases, plus the famous New York Times ones. That's 13. They only name nine. There's another one that's alluded to, so you could generously give them 10. So when we started looking closer at their reporting, we're like, wait a minute. This is deeply flimsy. However, according to Olivia Rheingold, this was truly outstanding reporting. So let's roll a little bit of her from a clip that came along with their post.
- [62:22]
Guest/Contributor Olivia Rheingold
So you've probably seen these photos of skeletal kids in Gaza on front pages all over social media, even in a UNICEF ad. They've become the symbols of famine. But we decided to look into these photos and the stories behind them. And what we found is that in case after case, these kids were sick. But not just with malnutrition. In every instance, they were suffering with other conditions or illnesses like cystic fibrosis, cerebral palsy, and even traumatic head injuries.
- [62:51]
Co-host Ryan Grim
Now, all of this is important because obviously this is not just important in its own right. And their original piece was perhaps, to me, one of the most infuriating I've ever seen because of how shoddy it was. It's one thing to look into, do any investigation you want, but you should also do the investigation. What we found here is that the free press did not, as far as we can tell, attempt to contact any of the families or the people involved in the story, which is journalism 101, is if you're going to write about somebody's health conditions, you would presumably speak to them or their doctors or somebody who has familiarity, which a lot of it was Google Translate.
- [63:32]
Guest/Contributor Olivia Rheingold
Well, I was gonna say a lot of the journalists on the ground who had used the images already, they were on the ground talking to the families. If I'm remembering correctly, for example, the New York Times pictures were taken by a photojournalist, and I think there was a journalist on the ground. Right. And they had been in conversation with the families about the conditions.
- [63:53]
Co-host Ryan Grim
Yeah. And so the fundamental point that the Free press says that it's making with its investigation is that these children were held up, mostly children. There are two adults held up as examples of the victims of the famine. But in fact they had pre existing conditions and they exposed the fact that they have these pre existing conditions.
- [64:11]
Guest/Contributor Olivia Rheingold
So what we did, which weren't disclosed.
- [64:13]
Co-host Saagar Enjeti
By the Washington Post for example and.
- [64:14]
Guest/Contributor Olivia Rheingold
Like the Washington Post put up a note eventually and I actually think Times.
- [64:18]
Co-host Ryan Grim
Added something and the point that you.
- [64:19]
Guest/Contributor Olivia Rheingold
And I talked about at the time is that it's actually perfectly acceptable to disclose those pre existing problems. Fuller context, they should do that. And the reporting that you all have added and contributed to the conversation is that actually it's often people with pre existing conditions who are the first to succumb when there are shortages of food.
- [64:39]
Co-host Ryan Grim
Exactly. Full context is good. But the idea that these children's pre existing conditions were the thing that was driving their health complications, which is what the free press pushes, that turns out not to be the case once you've talked to their families. So we asked Maha to interview as many of these family members as she could. In the middle of her reporting she was forcibly displaced from Gaza City and she had interviewed and done reporting on three of the cases. And I said that you don't stop like and it's like reporting from a tent without electricity with like intermittent access to Internet and no home base to write. It's extraordinarily difficult. And the cases that she looked into I think told, you know, enough of the story that we can, that we can understand what's going on here. So we can start with Muhammad Zachariah Ayub Al Mutawak who actually is the now 22 month old whose picture adorned the New York Times story that then created this controversy of FP and others said this child has other health complications. So you know you should not have used them as an example of the worsening famine conditions in Gaza. So we talked to family and got from them before and after photos. So the photo you're looking at Here is Muhammad 12 days before the March 2nd siege is announced in Gaza. So on March 2nd Israel closed all the crossings. No food, no medicine, nothing allowed in. And that went deep into May and that's what drove the acute crisis. So you can see his picture before this happened and then you can see after. And what the FP would have you believe is that it was his pre existing health condition. And we have a VO here that we can play too of him getting a haircut in a tent before the crossings were closed. And you could tell he's got some pre. You can just tell, you don't even have to be a doctor. You can tell he's got some pre existing health conditions, but it was the lack of access to food that drove his condition. Now Muhammad obviously is going to suffer things worse than other children, but it's just very clear now. At the same time, it's also worth fuller context if we want it. So he was born in December 2023 on during 1 of the nights of the fiercest bombing that they saw in the area where, where he was born in Gaza City the last two months of her pregnancy. They were displaced and moving constantly.
- [67:22]
Guest/Contributor Olivia Rheingold
Right after October 7th.
- [67:23]
Co-host Ryan Grim
Yeah, so this is right, Right, so. And some of the most widespread indiscriminate violence was right after October 7th. So he's born into that. And you can imagine that there could be some slight muscle weakness which is what he had when he was born. And you can imagine some neurological conditions as well. You know, it's, you know, the, the, the health of the mother during the pregnancy matters for the, for children. And so rather than kind of lessening the responsibility of the siege and the assault on his condition and the further reporting actually strengthened it. And so to give even more context, which I think is important, this is what his mother says. I suffered from malnutrition around two months after I gave birth to him. And he stopped breastfeeding at that time his father was still with us and could acquire milk. So despite the harsh conditions, Muhammad began growing as a healthy child. At one point he was even chubby. And we've seen the photos to prove that that's the case. On October 28, 2024, his father Zachariah was killed in an Israeli strike in Deir El Bala. And so now his mother is caring for these two children under these much more difficult conditions. She writes, I couldn't consistently get milk or diapers, but people continued to support me, bringing milk from time to time. I was still able to provide food for him until the occupation sealed the borders and enforced starvation in March. Doing this reporting, in some ways I felt guilty, even like asking these families to justify their situation. But at the same time, it's important to do so because the Free Press has now been bought by Paramount. Barry Weiss has been elevated to editor in chief of CBS News. And what she considers to be proper journalistic tradecraft is now going to have the backing of hundreds budgets in the hundreds of millions of dollars.
- [69:24]
Guest/Contributor Olivia Rheingold
That's what drove me crazy about the story originally and continuously. The story now that you all are following up on it. It reminds me of your report on the Douglas Murray David Frum speech contributions to the Israeli Ambassador as well, which is there's a constant drumbeat of lecturing from many of these same people about journalistic ethics.
- [69:47]
Co-host Saagar Enjeti
And that is exactly what happened with this story.
- [69:49]
Co-host Ryan Grim
They kept talking about how proud they were of this reporting that they did.
- [69:52]
Guest/Contributor Olivia Rheingold
Their editorial board, their editorial. They wrote a Free Press editorial just slamming you, Sager and Crystal. I somehow escaped.
- [70:02]
Co-host Ryan Grim
How did you get, how did you not know?
- [70:03]
Guest/Contributor Olivia Rheingold
I don't know. But all that is to say that was a lecture about journalistic ethics from people who were engaged in clearly lapsed journalistic ethic in the same story with the same breath that other people were being criticized over. And it's not a matter of your ideological standpoint on this. If we set that aside, that is not the full and complete picture. The full and complete picture was not told in this counter story. And so, yeah, I think it's important that the Washington Post now includes the disclosure. I think that's good. But getting that isn't a concession. Your story was a sort of beacon, a paragon of journalistic success.
- [70:53]
Co-host Ryan Grim
And we can quickly go through two others. So another one is six year old Najwa Hussein Hajaj. First of all, the Free Press claimed that these were all viral images. Even that is extremely dubious assertion. Najwa's photo was included in a CNN slideshow. How you define viral, I don't know, but it appears more like they just went cherry picking any image that was associated with any story about starvation and then googled until they could find somebody who also had a health condition. I looked it up, by the way. There are more cases of child disability in Gaza before October 7 than average around the world. I think UNICEF has it at like 12%. Average is 9 or 10%. So 20 to 30% higher in Gaza. And you can imagine, well, why would there be more childhood disability like in Gaza in a place that has been under siege for many decades. So using the fact that somebody has a disability against them in this case is further undermined by the fact that the fact that they have the disability might be related to the siege that their families have been living under for generations. But so what they found with Hajjaj is they, they found that she had an esophageal condition. And the Free Press suggested that, that this esophageal stenosis rather than the imposed starvation was responsible for her condition. So Maha talked to her mother and she says, quote, and before the war started, we had taken her to the hospital and she was diagnosed with esophageal stenosis. Her condition had not yet worsened. And a surgery was scheduled for December 4, 2023, quote. But of course, with hospitals being bombed, others overwhelmed with victims, any lack of equipment, her surgery was canceled. This is when our own war with her condition began, unquote. Which again stands to reason, if you imagine in your own life, if you and your family and your entire community are overnight shut off from access to medical care, emergency departments are open. If you, if you get, if you're a victim of the bombing or you're shot and you know, then they can treat you. But anything scheduled, like they're working on your esophageal condition, like, that's canceled, right? That's. It's just, it's just not happening. And so she started, started vomiting, was unable to, unable to keep things down. In the past, her mother had said the supplements and medical fluids had kept her in a stable condition despite this situation. But without those supplements and medical fluids, then she began to succumb to the ravages of, of malnutrition. And she was diagnosed, you know, with severe malnutrition. Quote. We tried to secure her proper food for her condition, like pureed vegetables, yogurt, juice or soft cheese, but none of these were available during the starvation campaign. We couldn't secure anything but lentils. And so she was then successfully evacuated and since then has gone, undergone, you know, three surgeries for this, for this condition. But this is what all experts will tell you that when, when famine hits, it is not the healthiest people who suffer the most first is the people who are most susceptible to that. And just think about in your own life, if that happened, if all of a sudden you were cut off from food and medical aid, who would go down first? And then imagine somebody came to you and said, well, you know, your grandmother had this condition, so why are you blaming us? You're the one that cut off food and medicine. That's why I'm blaming you. My grandmother was doing okay, even though she had her condition. And finally one more. One of the adults is Hamza Ismail Mishmish, his 25 year old, who had a lifelong pre existing condition, which I think was obvious in the photos of him. And so his brother told Dropsite, quote, Hamza was born with cerebral palsy and congenital anomalies and had lived with this condition for years. We used to follow up with doctors and he survived all these years on nutritional supplements and vitamins. During the war, we faced difficulties securing the nutritional supplements and it was impossible to compensate with fresh food with the borders closed. And even when international Aid was allowed in. All we could find was canned food. But in the recent months of starvation, his condition rapidly deteriorated. And Shadi added that although his body did appear thin before the war, quote, one can clearly see the difference between how he looked then and, and how he looks now. The recent starvation made us completely helpless toward his condition. Food supplements were completely unavailable. And then the part that's even more brutal to kind of think about living with these conditions because this is difficult enough under the most comfortable conditions, living in a nice house with all the access that you could have to food and medicine. This. Anybody who has lives with this condition or knows somebody who does, it's very difficult. But Mishmish's family added to dropsite that his health has been further worsened by the family's conditions and displacement, forcing him to live in a makeshift tent after their home was bombed. Quote, this tent cannot protect him from the scorching heat in summer or the freezing cold in winter. In cold weather, we cannot keep him warm, so his body develops infections, his feet swell and his entire body weakens. We would need at least three weeks to help him recover from these symptoms. All these circumstances combined or why his body has never been the same since the war. So imagine this is your family member and Barry Weiss and Olivia Rheingold come up to you and say it's because of his cerebral palsy that he's in this condition. Like he's 25 years old. We've known him his whole life. The condition is because of the siege and the war. And to, to even make you point that out to them is a form of crazy making.
- [76:51]
Guest/Contributor Olivia Rheingold
And again, it actually makes the story fuller, more interesting to know that it's the case.
- [76:57]
Co-host Ryan Grim
And so yeah, one of the ones they cited was a 14 year old who had a piece of his skull removed because he was hit by an Israeli shell.
- [77:04]
Guest/Contributor Olivia Rheingold
Oh my gosh.
- [77:05]
Co-host Ryan Grim
Oh. He had a pre existing condition from getting shelled by Israel. This is not serious. What are you doing?
- [77:11]
Guest/Contributor Olivia Rheingold
Yeah, yeah, sorry, go ahead. Yor. No, no, no. I just, I think it's all like even more, it's. It enriches the story to know the background and it makes it clear just like the, the level of the downstream effects. You know, we talk a lot about obviously like famine, deaths, because those are, you know, people have actually died, but also just like the downstream consequences of lack of medical treatments and food and how that affects, you know, the, the most vulnerable among us and has over the last couple of years. It's just a tragedy and it's definitely not an own or a slam dunk against the the outlets that use these images.
- [77:58]
Co-host Ryan Grim
Yeah. And we can look forward to a lot more of this, I guess now from 60 Minutes.
- [78:03]
Guest/Contributor Olivia Rheingold
We'll see. We'll see. All right. Great story, Ryan.
- [78:22]
Sponsor/Ad Voice
Degree advanced. The world's number one antiperspirant provides up to 72 hours of protection against the sweat and odor that comes with life. Degree is the getting a walk before work, getting dressed in in the car, running from the parking lot. Antiperspirant. The deadline's approaching crunch time. Hustle hard, play hard. Antiperspirant, the sweating. Working maximum. Exerting antiperspirant for when the heat is on so you can do what you need to do and work how you need to work. Sweat moves you forward. Degree is here to make sure it doesn't hold you back. Degree here for sweat.
- [78:52]
So do healthier choices really pay off with prescription plans from CVS Caremark? They do. Their plan designs give you more choice, which gives members more ways to get on, stay on and manage their meds. And that helps you control your costs because healthier members are better for business. Go to CMK CO Access to learn more about helping your members stay adherent. That's CMK Co Access.
- [79:19]
Co-host Saagar Enjeti
Ah, greetings from my bath festive friends.
- [79:23]
Co-host Ryan Grim
The holidays are overwhelming, but I'm tackling.
- [79:25]
Co-host Saagar Enjeti
This season with PayPal and making the.
- [79:27]
Co-host Ryan Grim
Most of my money.
- [79:28]
Co-host Saagar Enjeti
Getting 5% cash back when I pay in 4.
- [79:30]
Co-host Ryan Grim
No fees, no interest. I used it to get this portable spa with jets. Now the bubbles can cling to my sculpted but pruny body. Make the most of your money this holiday with PayPal. Save the offer in the app ends 1231. See PayPal.com promoter terms can be redeemed for cash and more paying for subject to terms and approval. PayPal Inc. And MLS 910457 this is an iHeart podcast.