10/22/25: Graham Platner Accused Of Nazi Tattoo, KJP Covers Up Biden Age, Energy Price Spike, New Irish President

Summary

Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar
Episode: October 22, 2025 — Graham Platner Accused Of Nazi Tattoo, KJP Covers Up Biden Age, Energy Price Spike, New Irish President
Hosts: Krystal Ball & Ryan Grim
Guest: Rep. Ro Khanna, John Powers (Clean Capital), Catherine Connolly (clip)

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Episode Overview

This episode centers on a series of political firestorms:

• The controversy over Maine Senate candidate Graham Platner's alleged Nazi-affiliated tattoo and its implications for Democratic Party politics.
• Karine Jean-Pierre’s media tour defending President Biden’s age and acuity amidst demands for transparency after a disastrous debate.
• A special segment on the Trump administration’s rollback of clean energy projects and the subsequent energy price spikes.
• A look at Ireland’s upcoming presidential election with front-runner Catherine Connolly, focusing on Irish-Palestinian solidarity and political dissent.

Throughout, the show delivers its trademark mix of irreverence, skepticism of establishment narratives, and a commitment to featuring outsider voices.

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I. Graham Platner’s Tattoo Scandal & Democratic Party Tensions

Background and Context

• Maine Senate candidate Graham Platner appeared on Pod Save America to address opposition research (oppo) — specifically Reddit posts and a chest tattoo allegedly linked to Nazi symbolism.
• The tattoo, a skull and crossbones, was acquired drunkenly in Croatia during Platner’s Marine service. The symbol closely resembles the Totenkopf, an SS emblem—but Platner insists it was a standard military choice, not an endorsement of fascism.

Key Discussion Points

The Origins of the Tattoo:

• Platner recounts the event:

  “We did what Marines on liberty do…chose a terrifying looking skull and crossbones off the wall because we were Marines…and we got his tattoos and then we all moved on with our lives.” (Rep. Ro Khanna quoting Platner, 02:42)

• The hosts jest about the dangers of drunken tattoos in Eastern Europe:

  “Your first mistake is drunkenly walking into a Croatian tattoo parlor.” (Krystal Ball, 03:55)

Reddit Posts and ‘Full Platner’:

• Platner was also accused of writing “antifa super soldier” on military gear, leading to contradictory allegations (fascist and anti-fascist within the same day).
• The controversy was amplified by a viral video of Platner performing Miley Cyrus’s “Wrecking Ball” shirtless at a wedding, which exposed the tattoo—an incident Platner preemptively publicized.
• Krystal explains oppo mechanics:

  “Another campaign pays people to dig up this information, put it in a file, and then…the campaign drips it out...to maximize the pain." (Krystal Ball, 05:33)

The Politics of Opposition Research:

• The timing of oppo coincides with 77-year-old Janet Mills entering the race, prompting speculation that party elites are undermining Platner due to her age and the Biden age debate.
• Screenshots of old Reddit posts appeared suspiciously fast, suggesting premeditated oppo tactics.

Ethics and Party Elitism:

• Critique of political ‘testing’ and elitism:

  “Do we want our political governing class to be like the classmates I had at Yale Law School…who were scripting their lives to be on the Supreme Court or Senate or President from the day they were student body president?” (Rep. Ro Khanna, 18:50)

• The lens of normalcy vs. polish:

  "Normal Americans are not perfectly polished. …That comes with some genuine baggage. Like, it’s genuinely baggage that you have a Nazi tattoo. You should have gotten rid of that shit." (Krystal Ball, 10:15)

• Ryan:

  “Instead of skeletons in the closet, you got skeletons inked on your chest.” (11:34)

• Debate over disqualification:

  “I don’t think that if the Democratic Party wants to get become a majoritarian party again…they cannot say that if you have bad posts on Reddit or mistakes in your past…that you can’t run in the future, because then all you’re going to get is Pete Buttigieg’s.” (Ryan Grim, 12:21)

Party Power Plays and Outsider Energy:

• Ro Khanna argues for genuine contests and strongly criticizes DSCC and Schumer for thumb-on-the-scale tactics:

  “This is the game the establishment plays…if you don’t know them, and if you don’t know the donors, you don’t [get support]. People are tired of it.” (Rep. Ro Khanna, 14:29)

• On electability:

  “We tried the safer alternative last time against Susan Collins…and she lost badly…The American people keep telling us they want change…so why are we trying the old playbook again and again?” (Rep. Ro Khanna, 17:24)

Scandal Handling as a Character Test:

• Ro Khanna notes that crises test how candidates respond; transparency and honesty matter more than the original offense:

  “It’s more about a test of how you handle it. Do people think you’re honest? Do they think you understand what the issue is?” (Rep. Ro Khanna, 21:03)

Quotes — “Full Platner” Scandal:

• "We now have a candidate who is being accused in the same day of being fascist and anti-fascist. We call it a full Platner, the full platinum.” (Ryan Grim, 04:22)
• On the party’s future:

  “Are we going to be a politics of ideas…Taxing billionaires, being for Medicare for all, having child care…Or are we going to be a politics of personal destruction and scandal?” (Rep. Ro Khanna, 22:40)

• On tattoos and modern politics:

  “Getting attacked for a tattoo in a country that is awash in ink…could actually be beneficial to him.” (Ryan Grim, 19:58)

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II. Karine Jean-Pierre’s Biden Cover-Up Tour

Background

• Former White House Press Secretary Karine Jean-Pierre is on a book tour (“Independent”), facing pointed questions about her role in defending President Biden’s age and fitness after his widely criticized debate performance.

Key Discussion Points

KJP’s Repeated Reassurances:

• Jean-Pierre sticks to the talking point:

  “I take this question incredibly seriously. I do. I take this so seriously.” (Karine Jean-Pierre, 28:50 and 29:05)
  This earnest repetition becomes a target of host satire.

• Krystal:

  “She’s so bad at this. …With her, you always felt…she’s like reading off a script in her head…sounds so inauthentic and dare I say un-independent." (29:05)

The Book and Its Reception:

• The book alleges that the Democratic Party was insufficiently pro-Biden; KJP now self-identifies as an independent.
• Ryan on the flop:

  “Book came out yesterday…Its rank is currently 24,107…That’s not good.” (30:00)

Media Pushback:

• KJP faces tougher questioning on Colbert and CBS Sunday Morning than she did while in office, leading her to repeat variations of:

  "I got to see Joe Biden almost every day and this is a question that I take very seriously.” (31:01)

• Interviewers and hosts highlight the gap between internal White House messaging and public perception:

  “No one is saying that the debate performance wasn’t shocking, wasn’t a disappointment.” (KJP, 32:49) “When she was in charge of the Biden White House's communications, everyone was bullied out of covering Biden’s health…Now…she’s actually not being treated with kid gloves and withering under it.” (Krystal Ball, 35:17)

Broader Implications:

• The hosts tie media coziness and party denialism to Biden’s age/fitness, and question the sense of entitlement around his re-election attempt.
• Ryan:

  "Why is Joe Biden entitled to a second term when he didn’t even—he betrayed the American people by suggesting…that he was going to be a bridge to the next generation?" (36:39)

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III. Energy Price Spike & Clean Power Politics

Background

• The Trump administration has recently cancelled billions in clean energy projects, fueling concerns about rising electric bills and the country’s energy trajectory.

Key Discussion with John Powers (Clean Capital CEO) [41:55–57:44]

Policy Uncertainty and Clean Energy Slowdown:

• Powers details how abrupt policy reversals and uncertainty have stymied solar and storage projects, despite surging demand and corporate buy-in:

  "There's a massive demand for what we do. But the policy uncertainty that this administration is putting in front of us really has put huge roadblocks into getting projects built and financed." (42:26)

• Major clean energy manufacturing gains—particularly in red states—are being reversed by cancellations.

Fossil Fuel vs. Renewable Subsidies:

• Powers rebuts Trump’s claim that renewables are a “scam,” noting fossil fuels have been heavily subsidized:

  "Fossil fuel's been subsidized for 100+ years. So the scam is actually the opposite...we have spent billions, if not trillions in fossil fuel subsidies." (46:46)

• Ryan contextualizes Trump canceling approved projects as anti-competitive, not free-market:

  "Taking a project that had hundreds of millions...and just canceling them, that doesn't sound like a level playing field..." (48:22)

Technological Progress:

• Innovations in solar panels and storage are accelerating:

  "Panels can ...take the sun from the top, but they take it as reflected from the bottom, really driving up efficiency. Energy storage has come such a long way..." (50:43)

• Texas—now the fastest-growing solar state—demonstrates cross-partisan potential as grid reliability improves via renewables.

Barriers and the Future:

• Policy “handcuffs” like supply chain restrictions and tax credit cliffs add further uncertainty.
• Renewable projects can be built in 18-24 months—far faster than traditional energy sources.

Notable Quotes:

• “Electricity bills are a top political issue today…It is going to be the egg prices of the midterms.” (John Powers, 55:27)
• “Nominal Determinism.” (Krystal Ball joking about Powers' last name, 57:38)

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IV. New Irish President: Catherine Connolly’s Anti-Establishment Surge

Background

• Ryan Grim shares his connection to Catherine Connolly—poised to win Ireland’s presidency—and plays a highlight from a Dublin pub conversation involving Connolly and Palestinian journalist Abu Bakr Abed.

Key Highlights (60:10–80:00)

Irish Government and Palestine:

• Connolly critiques Irish leadership for parroting Western (especially US) narratives and failing to act on their public’s pro-Palestinian sentiment:

  “We have no choice but to speak out. We're at a point in history where we really have to use our voices...when we try that, we're demonized, we're isolated, all the tricks of the book to do that with the help of a media that's colluding.” (Connolly, 66:05)

Role of Dissent and Democracy:

• She connects Ireland’s history of colonization to its current responsibilities and stresses the danger of consensus without challenge:

  “In my experience, most disinformation comes from governments, from institutions…that consensus mentality to me is the greatest threat to democracy.” (Connolly, 67:52)

Presidency as a Platform for Dissent:

• Connolly promises to use even a ceremonial role to vocalize peace and true independence:

  “The symbolism of this is very important…You couldn't stop me using my voice for peace...consensus is not healthy. Dissent is very good.” (Connolly, 75:20, 80:40)

Palestinian Perspective:

• Abu Bakr Abed highlights Ireland’s unique place in Gazan hopes, urging the government to align with its people and stop acquiescing to US or Israeli interests:

  "What Palestinians need from this government is just to listen to its people...the least you can do: don't contribute to killing us." (Abed, 74:23)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “You got skeletons inked on your chest.” (Ryan Grim, 11:34)
• “We now have a candidate who is being accused in the same day of being fascist and anti-fascist. We call it a full Platner, the full platinum.” (Ryan Grim, 04:22)
• “If you want all my Yale Law School buddies to be running America, fine…but I’d like to have a more cross section of America running the country.” (Rep. Ro Khanna, 18:50)
• “She’s selling a book called Independent…by saying the Democratic Party was insufficiently pro Biden. That is her take in this book, that the party was not loyal enough to Joe Biden, which is why she's no longer a Democrat but is now identifying as an independent. Just an incredible concept." (Krystal Ball, 29:05)
• “Electricity bills are a top political issue today…It is going to be the egg prices of the midterms.” (John Powers, 55:27)
• “Consensus is not healthy. Dissent is very good. And diversity and the cherishing of diversity, it's absolutely vital for a functioning, healthy democracy.” (Catherine Connolly, 80:40)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Platner tattoo/Reddit scandal: 02:05–22:14
• Ro Khanna interview: 12:55–25:53; main segment 13:20–25:54
• Karine Jean-Pierre segment: 28:21–37:58
• Clean energy/John Powers interview: 40:31–57:44
• New Irish President/Catherine Connolly segment: 60:10–80:40

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Episode Takeaways

• Democrats’ identity crisis: Platner's controversy highlights deep fractures between party elites seeking polish and a base hungry for authenticity and working-class representation.
• Media and establishment denial: The Biden age debate and KJP’s tour show the risks of message discipline over forthright acknowledgment of reality.
• Policy rollback whiplash: Energy politics are increasingly critical as supply/demand issues mount, with rapid shifts undermining long-term investment and innovation.
• Irish political ferment: Ireland’s next president may amplify dissent, showing the enduring power—and the necessity—of outsider voices in democracy.

Breaking Points continues to pierce through the noise, calling out hypocrisy and amplifying outsider perspectives across the political spectrum.

Transcript

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[Krystal Ball]

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[Reporter/Interviewer]

Future of independent news media, and we.

[Krystal Ball]

Hope to see [e-mail].

[Ryan Grim]

Maine Senate candidate Graham Platner appeared on Pod Save America to respond to some of the Reddit posts that were unearthed by Democratic opposition researchers after the entry of governor Janet Mills into the Senate race. And while doing so, he talked about new oppo that is being circulated. Let's roll that. And we're going to get into it. The reason we are showing this video.

[Reporter/Interviewer]

Is because at the very end you.

[Ryan Grim]

Can see a tattoo on your chest.

[Reporter/Interviewer]

And I've been told that some of.

[Ryan Grim]

Your political opponents are telling reporters that.

[Reporter/Interviewer]

That tattoo has a Nazi affiliation. And I would like to know, is that accurate?

[Ryan Grim]

Are you a secret Nazi?

[Representative Ro Khanna]

I am not a secret Nazi. Actually, if you read through my Reddit comments, I think you can pretty much figure out where I stand on Nazism and antisemitism and racism in general. I would say a lifelong opponent. And we went ashore and Split Croatia, myself and a few of the other machine gun squad leaders, and we got very inebriated and we just. We did what Marines on liberty do and we decided to go get a tattoo. And we went to a tattoo parlor in Split, Croatia, and we chose a terrifying looking skull and crossbones off the wall because we were Marines and, you know, skulls and crossbones are a pretty standard military. Military thing. And we got his tattoos and then we all moved on with our lives.

[Krystal Ball]

All right?

[Ryan Grim]

And so the story is that he went into a Croatian tattoo parlor, picked a skull and crossbones off the wall, turned out to be, you know, have some Nazi symbolism. If you do walk drunkenly into a Croatian tattoo parlor, you are extremely likely to want, especially if you ask for a skull and crossbones to wind up with some type of Nazi symbolism on your body.

[Krystal Ball]

Your first mistake is drunkenly walking into a Croatian tattoo parlor because it is a high likelihood you walk out.

[Ryan Grim]

And so we can put up D2. You know, here's his. Here's the side by side. That's the Totenkopf Sagar is going to.

[Krystal Ball]

I'm sure Sagar should come on the Friday show and give us his full download on this.

[Reporter/Interviewer]

So.

[Ryan Grim]

Yeah, okay, pretty clear. I'm like, looks like Grateful Dead to me. But yes, clear. So last night, new oppo came out which said that at one point on Reddit, he said that he wrote antifa super soldier on his, like armor. I think it was in the army or maybe back in the Marines. So we now have a candidate who is being accused in the same day of being fascist and anti fascist. We call it a full Platner, the full platinum. Now the way that this was revealed is that at his sister in law's wedding and he talked about this on Pod Save America, he performed a Miley Cyrus song with his shirt off. We've all been there and somebody. And that's how people notice. Wait a minute, what's that skull and crossbones you got on there? So we have to watch a little bit of Graham Platner performing Miley Cyrus. Okay, so I over promised and under delivered here. We can't actually play this because YouTube is going to take down the video. If we play some Miley Cyrus, you will just, you know the song though. This is Wrecking Ball. This is Graham Platner singing Wrecking Ball to his entire family.

[Krystal Ball]

You said he was shirtless.

[Ryan Grim]

He is also pantless and he said those are his Marine silkies.

[Krystal Ball]

Absolutely hammered and Sigma Miley Cyrus. That's how people found the tattoo. And Ryan, you keep mentioning oppo shorthand for opposition research, meaning that another campaign has pays people to dig up this information, put it in a file, and then the campaign drips it out to different media outlets sort of in a strategic way to maximize the pain. So maybe they're still sitting on stuff. Maybe they did this because Janet Mills, as soon as she announced her candidacy, got this predictable wave of backlash for being 77 years old and trying to become a senator with a six year term amidst all of this genuine concern about Democrats hiding Biden's infirmities. So the oppo comes out right away. That's what this oppo very clearly is. We discussed last week, Crystal and I discussed last week how bizarre it was when Platner's old P hustle Reddit posts popped that they had been screencapped within hours of them being posted. And they were from years ago. So before anybody seemingly knew he had a career, someone. Unless there's a way on the Internet to go back and make it to find these posts in a way that shows they were posted one hour ago, three days ago, and screenshot them when they popped in the K files CNN story. It looks like somebody screenshotted them years ago and maybe he had some enemies.

[Ryan Grim]

That got were somehow it was Wayback Machine capturing them. Could that have been it?

[Krystal Ball]

I mean, it's pretty hard to believe that Wayback Machine was capturing things in a way that showed up as three hours ago from 2020 or 2021.

[Reporter/Interviewer]

Right.

[Ryan Grim]

Yeah. I don't.

[Krystal Ball]

It's all weird, but that is just to say this is opposition research very clearly. It's not. People organically stumbling into these videos. And Platner preempted it by going on pod save and releasing the video himself, which is a pretty smart move.

[Ryan Grim]

And releasing it all right after Mills announces her run just was kind of an in your face like this is Zappo from us.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah.

[Ryan Grim]

And it's not obvious yet how this is gonna play out.

[Krystal Ball]

Not at all.

[Ryan Grim]

The DC political class is telling me he's cooked. They told me that Donald Trump was cooked probably 35 different times or more than that.

[Krystal Ball]

And Trump is singular of course, his.

[Ryan Grim]

Former political director, who seems to have had a real falling out and has left the campaign. We can put up this next element. Genevieve McDonald, she wrote, I've run out of self restraint worse than when they. I don't even actually. I don't know what's going on with the Red Eats. Maybe you can tell me this, but Graham has an anti Semitic tattoo on his chest. He's not an idiot. He's a military history buff. Maybe he didn't know it when he got it, but he got it years ago, and he should have had it covered up because he knows damn well what it means. His campaign released it themselves to some podcast bros, along with a video of him shirtless and drunk at a wedding to try to get ahead of it. The vault is open for the GOP to effing crush any dreams we had in the general. And literally everyone I know is fighting with each other on social media. We cannot be this painfully stupid. And so the best argument I've heard has been, yeah, okay, like, it seems extremely plausible that some drunken Marines walked in and got a skull and crossbones too, but you should cover it up, get rid of it once you realize what it is. So I think that's a reasonable criticism. Unless you're doing some, like, Grateful Dead subversion. We're like. We're rejecting the potency of this thing by, like, draining it of its meaning. I don't. Like.

[Reporter/Interviewer]

I don't know.

[Ryan Grim]

So we, you know. But now, according to Blattner, he only just learned of this. According to some reporting from anonymous acquaintances of his from 10 years ago. He used to be shirtless in the tune in which I never saw.

[Krystal Ball]

You never saw that.

[Ryan Grim]

Okay. And would talk about it. That he kind of knew he had accidentally gotten this thing, but knew what it was by 10 years ago.

[Krystal Ball]

But the idea that it makes him a secret Nazi is completely insane.

[Ryan Grim]

No, it would make him kind of an idiot, maybe, or something like that, or reckless, like, not getting rid of it, but go ahead.

[Abu Bakr Abed]

Well, I was just.

[Krystal Ball]

He clearly never thought that he was going to run for Senate, and so he just, like, was a sort of. I don't know if this is probably too derogatory, but kind of a fail son who was bopping around and struggling a lot after coming back from the horrors of Fallujah. And, yeah, it's like, probably was bartending and probably not thinking too hard about whether or not he was ruining his career by telling this amusing story on how. The point is this has become a political controversy because his opponents are weaponizing it cynically. And that's what politics is. It's not surprising. If you're Janet Mills, of course you're using this. Does Janet Mills literally think Graham Platner is a secret Nazi? No. Is she trying to convince the people of Maine that he's a secret Nazi? Yes. That is completely insane. And this entire. This entire controversy with his Reddit post will have you believe that he's some type of anarchist and also that he's a communist and a Nazi because he's been posting weird shit on the Internet for years and has a tattoo. No, he's literally just a stoner who posted all kinds of his musings on the Internet over a period of time and who served and has struggled a lot because of his service. And that's what makes politics so insufferable, is that this entire DC scaffolding tries to suppress and just smuggle in the crib any normal American who wants to get into politics. Because normal Americans are not perfectly polished. They are not. They're Marjorie Taylor Greene and Graham Platner. Like, they're not used to being scripted political robots. And that comes with some genuine baggage. Like it's genuinely baggage that you have a Nazi tattoo. You should have gotten rid of that shit.

[Ryan Grim]

Instead of skeletons in the closet, you got skeletons inked on your chest.

[Krystal Ball]

Skeletons on the chest.

[Ryan Grim]

And I would say, just ethically, like, if anybody has a Nazi tattoo that they got drunkenly, accidentally, when you learn that, you should cover it up. Like, that's what I would do if I had that. Yeah. But if he just learned about it now, maybe he will get it covered up. I don't know. Now, from a political perspective, I don't think that you disqualify candidate. And we're going to talk in a moment to Ro Khan about this, who has endorsed Platner. I don't think that if the Democratic Party wants to get become a majoritarian party again and get normal people, and particularly men to support them, they cannot say that if you have bad posts on Reddit or mistakes in your past.

[Krystal Ball]

Yes.

[Ryan Grim]

That you can't run in the future, because then all you're going to get is Pete Buttigieg's. And actually, it appears to be a Pete Buttigieg guy from Pete Buttigieg's orbit who's been doing this. Oppo will have more reporting on that soon. Otherwise, you become just a party of Pete's. Mayor Pete's. And we have seen that that does not work.

[Krystal Ball]

Nope.

[Ryan Grim]

So you've already Tried that. Now you gotta try the other thing. And it's not gonna be easy the whole time.

[Krystal Ball]

Nope. You're gonna have to have some tolerance for normal people.

[Ryan Grim]

Yeah. Chuck Schumer seems to think that Janet Mills is the safe pick. They have had the safe pick five times and Susan Collins is going strong. All right, so let's bring in Representative Ro Khanna. Joining us now to discuss what is truly a crucial crossroads for Democrats is Representative Ro Khanna, who endorsed Graham Platner early and has stood by him so far. Congressman Khanna, thanks for joining us.

[Representative Ro Khanna]

Thank you, Ryan still standing by?

[Ryan Grim]

Yes, yes. And I was going to ask that because you're in this oppo kind of vicious cycle where it's going to be hit after hit after hit and people are going to keep coming back to you. Okay, what about now? What about now? What about now? I wanted to start with Chuck Schumer, who was asked about the main Senate race and came out effectively with an unsurprising endorsement of Janet Mills, who's the main governor. Let's roll D5 here.

[Reporter/Interviewer]

Are you supporting Governor Janet Mills in the primary? And do you consider Graham Platner's recently unearthed comments disqualifying?

[Representative Ro Khanna]

Look, I'll let the people of Maine decide the second.

[Ryan Grim]

We think that Janet Mills is the best candidate to retire Susan Collins.

[Representative Ro Khanna]

She's a tested two term governor, and.

[Ryan Grim]

The people of Maine have an enormous.

[Representative Ro Khanna]

Amount of affection and respect for her.

[Ryan Grim]

All right, so she's a tested two term governor. I've seen that phrase going around. They seem to like the phrase tested. Contrasting that with Platner, who they're implying correctly, is untested. So what's your response when you see that from Chuck Schumer?

[Representative Ro Khanna]

Well, this is the game the establishment plays. I had to go up against an incumbent twice, and all the incumbents rallied around Miconda. And the reason that they do this is they know these people and it's a club. And, and if you're part of the club, then you get the blacking of the DSCC and Schumer. And if you don't know them, and if you don't know the donors, you don't. And people are tired of it. They're tired of the DSCC putting its thumb on the scale in Maine, Texas, in Michigan, in these Senate primaries. I thought they learned the lesson from 2016 that the party should stay neutral. Now, frankly, the party was pretty neutral in 2020 in the primary elections. But they need to be the presidential primaries. They need to do that now for Senate and House races. And my view is it actually just fuels Platner's campaign.

[Krystal Ball]

Well, yeah, I was going to ask, does the DSCC seem to have, and not just the dscc, but like the kind of official party establishment seem to have any awareness that their attacks on Platner could potentially backfire? Do they seem to have any awareness of. What you were just describing is that people are sick of it. We can put this next element on the screen. This is a report from Punchbowl's John Bresnahan, who says when pressed on Platner's Nazi tattoo, Sanders, Bernie Sanders lashed out at the, quote, corrupt campaign finance system, adding, we don't have enough candidates in this country that will take on the powers that be and fight for the working class. Now, that's not surprising from Bernie Sanders. Congressman. But do they seem to have any sense of awareness? That's actually how a lot of average Democratic voters react to this type of thing.

[Representative Ro Khanna]

I don't think they understand how disconnected the Beltway is from the base. I mean, two thirds of Democratic voters want new leaders. And why do they want new leaders? First, the current leadership got us two different terms of Donald Trump. Like, how could we say that's a success by definition? It's a failure in any sports team, in any business. If you had leadership and you kept losing, you would replace the leadership. The second point is that they are concerned that when you have working class candidates like Graham Platner and they are willing to tax billionaires and they're willing to call out the horrors of the war in Gaza, they're going to face huge scrutiny. And these aren't perfect candidates, but they, they want people who are going to question the establishment because they're not concerned about a candidate's perfect biography. They're concerned about whether they're going to fight for them.

[Ryan Grim]

What about the argument from Schumer that it's just too much of a risk to run somebody like this, given the weaknesses that he has? You're gonna get hit with these ads. You know, he's antifa. He's also a fascist. And therefore you need to run somebody tested and safer, like Janet Mills. What about the pure kind of pragmatic argument they're making?

[Representative Ro Khanna]

We tried the safer alternative last time again, Susan Collins. I respectfully forget the candidate's name, but she was the safe choice and she lost badly. And we've tried the safe candidate a number of times against Donald Trump. I mean, Clinton, Hillary Clinton was the safe choice. Biden was the safe choice. Harris was the Safe choice. The safe choices aren't working. Why? The American people keep telling us they want change. They want something that's going to take on the system. So why are we trying the old playbook again and again and again? And by the way, the main voters, there's one place I do agree with Senator Shoritz, for Maine voters to decide. Let them decide. They'll be able to factor in electability. You don't need to do oppo dumps and put your thumb on the scale. Let there be a contest. As it is, Mills starts out with so many advantages. She has more name id, She's a two term governor, she has more fundraising. Do you really need to do the oppo dump?

[Krystal Ball]

I mean, come on, bring us inside conversations to the extent that you can that are happening behind the scenes about the Platner oppo dump that we're now like a week into. You had endorsed Platner. So I imagine, Congressman, you're getting some feedback, maybe some heat from people who say, what are you doing standing by this guy? What's the reaction? Like, what are the conversations like behind the scenes about what the party should do when it comes to Platner?

[Representative Ro Khanna]

Well, I am getting some pushback. And when I say he's looked, I think some of the comments were despicable. And obviously no one should be having a tattoo and that's horrendous. But we have to ask a fundamental question in this country, and that is, do we want our political governing class to be like the classmates I had at Yale Law School? Some of them who dreamed of being President of the United States from the age of 12, who were not wanting to go to any parties because they were concerned someone would take a picture of them and were scripting their lives to be on the Supreme Court or the Senate or president from the day they were student body president? Or do we want normal people also having a chance at these offices who make mistakes, who have regrets, who say dumb things and who grow? And really, that's the question. And if you want all my Yale Law School buddies to be running America, fine. I think some of the Yale Law School folks are fine. But I'd like to have a more cross section of America running the country. That's really the issue.

[Reporter/Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Ryan Grim]

And I think the bigger problem is that the country has had an opportunity to address that question themselves. And they have rejected those Yale kids. They're like, no, actually this isn't who we want. So I'm wondering if it might actually end up being beneficial to Platner here because he has. You know, a lot of what politics is nowadays is people want to know who your enemies are and what people are saying about you. And there's something kind of so absurd about coming after a Marine for a skull and bones tattoo that I feel like it might make his own. It might make his critics look deeply out of touch, even acknowledging, like, okay, now that he's learned that this is actually a Nazi tattoo, he should probably do something about it. We need to, and we'll see what he does about it. But the broader question of getting attacked for a tattoo in a country that is awash in ink strikes me as could actually be beneficial to him.

[Representative Ro Khanna]

Well, I think what's beneficial to him is the sense that the entire establishment is coming down on him, that you have a powerful Senate majority leader opposing him, you have the traditional media pundits opposing him, and then it actually gives him a chance to say, look, I'm actually changed. This is what they're afraid of. They're afraid of my positions and taxing wealth and standing up for the working class and being for Medicare for all, and in calling for not having a blank check to Netanyahu. That's why they're going after me. But I think he's also handled it well. I mean, he's been honest, he's been transparent. He's admitted wrong. A lot of times, in my view, in politics, these quote, unquote scandals, it's more about a test of how you handle it. Do people think you're honest? Do they think you're straightforward? Do they. They think you understand what the issue is. None of us are perfect. There have been, when I run issues, everyone has criticisms. And I think what people are saying is, okay, does this person, is he dealing with it in a way that reflects character? So it's less about what Graham Platner said, it's more about what his character is today that I think will determine the success of his campaign.

[Krystal Ball]

Last question for me, Ryan has posted to the effect that this is a really crucial test for the Democratic Party. Congressman, do you see that? In the same way, is this a sort of test for the party going forward as to whether it'll be a party of, you know, just. Just Pete Buttigieg, people who wanted to be president since they were student body president, as you mentioned, Congressman, or a party for all Americans, average Americans, working class Americans?

[Representative Ro Khanna]

I think it is a big test. It's a test of two things. One, is this party going to allow for outsider voices? You know, even though I For example, went to Yale Law School as a son of Indian immigrants. And not having kind of the third in my name or a legacy, I always felt a little bit on the outside of this, quote, unquote, groomed governing class. But are we going to allow people who have had unconventional paths, whether it's Graham Platner, whether it's Oram Mamdani, whoever it is, is to be part of the conversation? But there's this broader issue, and that is, are we going to be a politics of ideas and vision and substance? Are we going to be a politics of personal destruction and scandal and being against things? So much of the Democratic brand right now is anti Trump. It's trying to point out all his flaws. And now we're sort of trying to point out all the flaws of Platner. How about we be a party that stands for ideas going forward, Taxing billionaires, being for Medicare for all, having child care, having a human rights foreign policy, having a jobs vision. In the world of AI, I think that that the question is, are we going to be capable of being a party of big politics with big ideas? That's the real test.

[Ryan Grim]

And when it comes to resolving this tattoo question, do you think that Platner could get off the hook if he said that actually this is an homage to the Azov Battalion, or I'm gonna cover it up with an Azov brigade tattoo? Do you think that would kind of get him? Because the party establishment, it seems okay with Nazi regalia in some circumstances.

[Representative Ro Khanna]

Ryan, I think only 0.001% of the American people would understand that analogy.

[Ryan Grim]

And they're all in Washington, D.C. they're all in Langley.

[Representative Ro Khanna]

I led a letter a long time ago talking about that issue in Ukraine and how we needed to confront that anti Semitism. I think the way Platner is dealing with it, though, is fine. Which is to say I regret it. I'm going to remove was something that I'm not proud of. But there are a lot of people like him who do things that they regret. And the question is how they grow and what type of person they are. But, you know, look, I don't agree with a lot of President Clinton's politics today in terms of some of the policies. But one of the things he said in New Hampshire is they're making it all about my character, and I'm making it all about yours. I'm going to be doing this to see what is in it for you and what we can do for you. Richard Nixon famously said, American politicians are like toilet fixtures. They don't have to look beautiful. People just want to make sure they work. And ultimately what people are judged on is what is your ideas for improving the material lives lives of Americans who feel the American dream is done? What are your lies for taking on power? And I think that's where the election is going to be won or lost.

[Ryan Grim]

And I think you said President Clinton, I think you meant President Trump. That one, yes. But Congressman Khanna, thank you so much for joining us. This is a fascinating moment for Democrats. Really appreciate you being here.

[Krystal Ball]

Thank you.

[Representative Ro Khanna]

Thank you. Appreciate it.

[Ryan Grim]

All right, up next, Karine Jean Pierre.

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[Krystal Ball]

Former White House press secretary Karine Jean Pierre is on a book tour selling her new book called Independent, which is out and doesn't seem to be demonstrating much independence. We have an incredible mashup of Karine Jean Pierre reacting to various people in the media who are now pretending to be very tough on this question of Biden's health. Cover up. So let's go ahead and roll E1 to see how Karine Jean Pierre is taking these questions.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

I got to see Joe Biden almost every day and this is a question that I take very serious. I want everybody to know that I take this question incredibly seriously. I do. I take this so seriously. I take this so seriously.

[Krystal Ball]

She's so bad at this. She's serious. Oh, she takes it very seriously. Seriously. That's right. She's serious. At least we know that. But she's like. This is why she was a. I think she's actually one of the worst White House pract press secretaries. Not for any political reasons, but just. It was so. I mean, with her, you always felt the trick if you're a press secretary is to use the talking points without sounding like you're on the talking points. You always know that she's like reading off a script in her head when she's doing it and it sounds so inauthentic and dare I say un independent, which is the title of a book she's selling by saying the Democratic Party was insufficiently pro Biden. That is her take in this book, that the party was not loyal enough to Joe Biden, which is why she's no longer a Democrat but is now identifying as an independent. Just an incredible concept. We were talking about the galaxy brain tank earlier. This is a real galaxy brain at book length take from Kareem Jean Pierre.

[Ryan Grim]

It's not working. I just checked the Amazon page. Book came out yesterday. 192 pages, which is extremely thin, by the way. For a book. They want about 30 bucks for it. Its rank is currently 24,107. For a book that was on an author who was on Colbert, the View, all of these other things that we're showing you here, that's not good. 24,000 means you maybe sold 50 copies or 100 copies on Amazon over the last. That's just a rough gauge. It's not good. I think we have a couple more we can do. E2. Here she is on Colbert, where she got. There aren't many Democrats that get a rough ride on Colbert, but she kind of did. Let's roll. E2.

[Reporter/Interviewer]

I saw a guy who I had.

[Ryan Grim]

Not seen backstage at the benefit that I did. It seemed like a dramatically different person. And at 81 years old, that's not entirely unexpected. You can imagine why people got so worried.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

So a couple of things. I got to see Joe Biden almost every day. And this is a question that I take very seriously. I never. No one has ever said he hasn't aged. No one ever said that. He would make jokes about it, he would acknowledge it, and he would say, yes, I know I don't speak this as well as I used to. I don't walk as well as I used to. No one is saying that he didn't age. I'm talking about was he. Did he have the questions that I was getting, the mental acuity, Was he able to govern? And the man that I saw nearly every day was someone who was engaging, understood policy and was always putting the American people first. And it showed. It showed in what we were able to get done. I remember.

[Ryan Grim]

I don't think anybody questioned his heart or his policies. But it takes more than that to be the President of the United States. And in a moment of great pressure on stage, we saw someone shock us and worry us, and nothing could assuage that worry. So I don't think it was necessarily a betrayal of Joe Biden as other people saying, we don't think we were.

[Representative Ro Khanna]

Shown Joe Biden that you saw.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

I saw every day a really ugly assault on someone who had 50 plus years of experience and who again, objectively had done a good job as President of the United States. And it was heartbreaking to see that.

[Ryan Grim]

I think all of that, everything you're saying, I cannot fault the factual basis of what you're saying or your feelings about it. But what happened was the debate performance. Everything is downstream of that.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

And no one is saying that the debate performance wasn't shocking, wasn't a disappointment.

[Tim Miller]

No one is saying disappointment is such a light.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

I use your words.

[Ryan Grim]

It was harrowing.

[Krystal Ball]

I use your words.

[Ryan Grim]

Okay, look, listen. We're never going to agree on this. And she also appeared on CBS Sunday Morning and with Tim Miller with role E3.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

You even write, Kareem, that you were.

[Tim Miller]

On the plane with him going to the debate and you didn't see anything.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

Well, when we were on Air Force One, Going to the debate, you got to remember his campaign. People were on the team, his family was on the team. I actually was one of those rare trips that I didn't really see him until after the debate, even though I was on the plane. So really, I take. I want everybody to know that I take this question incredibly seriously. I do. I was his White House press secretary, which means I had a role that saw him practically every day and traveled with him. And you saw Nothing more than 95%. We've always said, we're not going to say, oh, he didn't age. He aged and he poked fun at it. We always owned up. And with age comes what happens when you get older, which is what I. What I. But when we talk about the mental acuity, and again, I take this very, very seriously. Never saw anyone who wasn't there. I saw someone who was always engaged. I saw someone who understood policy, pushed us on the policy and also understood.

[Reporter/Interviewer]

History talk about him that.

[Ryan Grim]

Well, though he couldn't talk about. He wasn't campaigning.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

First of all. First of all, he did talk about them, whether it broke through or not.

[Abu Bakr Abed]

He did, Tim.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

He did talk about.

[Reporter/Interviewer]

He talked way less to the press than Donald Trump does.

[Ryan Grim]

Way less.

[Reporter/Interviewer]

And he wasn't out there at all.

[Ryan Grim]

He wasn't good off the cuff.

[Reporter/Interviewer]

He wasn't doing press conferences.

[Ryan Grim]

Let's just be real.

[Abu Bakr Abed]

Like he didn't do.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

That's not true, Tim. You're conflating all of it.

[Krystal Ball]

That's what you're.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

No, you're. First, you're telling me he didn't talk well about it. Then you're telling me he didn't talk at all.

[Ryan Grim]

He didn't do either.

[Reporter/Interviewer]

He didn't talk very often. And when he did, it wasn't very good. He sounded very old.

[Karine Jean-Pierre]

We weren't paying attention to what we were doing at the White House, but.

[Reporter/Interviewer]

I paid attention that. I'm with you on the policies.

[Ryan Grim]

I'm talking about his performance for KJP to try to tell the American public, or to tell American public through Tim Miller, that he addressed the press frequently and did so with aplomb.

[Krystal Ball]

Incredible.

[Ryan Grim]

She does not take this seriously, despite her claims repeatedly to the contrary.

[Krystal Ball]

Does she think she takes it seriously? I mean, that's like, what's. Does she think anybody is buying this? What is the market for this that she thinks exists? It's, like, actually really impossible to imagine. The only reason, by the way, she's getting tough questions now. I actually think this might explain some of it, is she doesn't expect to be treated this way by the media because she really never was when she had any power. Right. When she was in charge of the Biden White House's communications, everyone was bullied out of covering Biden's health. Every single network that is now acting as though she's the worst person in the world was intimidated by her because she said, we aren't giving you access if you report on this. We're not like, listen to what Alex Thompson has said about this. That's how people who tried to cover that story were treated by the Biden White House. Now that she has no power because she is so attached to the Biden legacy and the Biden brand, which is out of favor in the Democratic Party, the Bidens no longer have power in the Democratic Party. It's only then that people in the media turn on her. And I don't think she was expecting it. I don't think she is used to being treated this way by the media. In fact, in one of those interviews, she clutches. It was a Morning Joe. She clutches to this idea. She goes, I'm a black queer woman and people like me get taken for granted. As though it would be her shield from tough criticism. But Bidens are out of power. They don't have any clout left in the Dem party. So she's actually not being treated with kid gloves and withering under it.

[Ryan Grim]

Yeah, the theme of the book is that the party betrayed Joe Biden. But I think you're right that she feels a sense of betrayal as well. Or maybe primarily. And it also that entire theme raises a question of entitlement. Like why is Joe Biden entitled to a second term when he didn't even. He betrayed the American people by suggesting to them that he was going to be a bridge to the next generation, he was going to be a one term candidate and then barreled ahead trying to run. If there was a betrayal, he's the one that carried out the betrayal. But the idea that of a betrayal requires the public owing him something and no politician is owed anything. So the whole premise kind of falls apart there.

[Krystal Ball]

I think that has to. I mean, that's the only way that I can explain what's happening with Karine Jean Pierre. So I'm glad you looked up the book sales. I was wondering how it was doing after seeing all of this. So you're not even curious?

[Reporter/Interviewer]

I just checked.

[Ryan Grim]

Ken Vogel's book is doing better.

[Krystal Ball]

All right, well, another reminder to tune in for our weekend interview with Ken Vogel. I was going to say we'll continue to follow the story in the future, but I doubt we will.

[Ryan Grim]

No, we won't. Let's hope we don't. All right, up next is John Powers, CEO of Clean Capital, to talk about why you're paying so much in your electric bill.

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[Ryan Grim]

Democrats are pushing back hard against the Trump administration for canceling billions of dollars worth of energy projects. If we can put up the first element on the screen here. Martin Heinrich, the top Democrat on the Energy Committee, is saying that as a result of the cancellation of over $7 billion worth of contracts, we're going to see staggering increases in energy prices for the American people. And he argues that they're canceled completely illegally because contracts, the money had already been appropriated by the Biden administration and contracts had already been reached on these projects. He also noted that coincidentally, 218 of the 233 projects, ranging from battery storage to hydrogen solar, were in states with Democratic governors. Shocking. Now, energy that's produced in blue states, by the way, does go out to red states, but whatever. Anyway, I put up this next element. This is on the heels of this, the Trump administration's cancellation of the largest, what was going to be the largest solar facility in the country would produce 6.2 gigawatts of energy when it was finished. That's enough to power 2 million homes. This was out in the Southwest, which is like everybody energy starved. So to walk us through what all this means is John Powers. He's the CEO of Clean Capital and he's joining us this morning. John, welcome to Breaking Points. Thank you.

[Reporter/Interviewer]

Thanks for having me.

[Ryan Grim]

John, can you talk to us a little bit about what the energy industry is facing broadly, but the clean energy industry in particular over the last year?

[Reporter/Interviewer]

Yeah, I mean, the last six months in particular have been incredibly challenging, really, from an understanding of where we're going. You know, we have invested over a billion half dollars in over 27 states. We've built over half a gigawatt worth of projects and are selling to customers that want to buy our electricity. Everyone from Fortune 100s to folks buying community solar. The reality is there's a massive demand for what we do. But the policy uncertainty that this administration is putting in front of us really has put huge roadblocks into getting projects built and financed. The reality is though, that as electricity prices continue to rise in this country, and they are rising for a very simple reason, there's a growing demand like we've never seen before. Right. The last 20 years we've had a pretty steady state demand in this country. But because of data centers and other electrification of everything efforts, electricity prices are going up significantly. Here in Buffalo, where I am, they expect a 20% rate hike next year. So what we're doing is adjusting to that new reality and looking to where we and how we can build projects.

[Krystal Ball]

And the, which Biden bill was it the ira? I forget. I always mix up the ira. Yeah.

[Ryan Grim]

BBB became ira.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah, BBB became ira. And then there's the OBBB of this administration. But tell us maybe a little bit about how with the IRA credits, there were some adaptations that had to be made afterwards to get stuff actually built and off of the ground. And that was in pro in the process when the Trump administration came in and canceled a lot of this. So what is your. Maybe you can give us a sense of sort of the trajectory or the plateau might be a better word to use at this point.

[Reporter/Interviewer]

Yeah, hopefully it's not a plateau, first of all. And I think we have to even step back further than the Biden legislation from a few years ago and look at what's happened over the last decade in this industry. Really, it was a truly a nascent industry. And looking back as far as 2010 and what has happened as policy is aligned, technology is proven out and finance has really moved behind this industry. We've seen it grow and the demand for the power that we produce is significant. So when major corporations like Walmart or the tech companies and others are signing long term power arrangements for electricity today, they never did that 15 years ago. Right. They just bought from the utility. But they're seeing better ways to budget their electricity. When you think about things like solar, right, the input to the solar, the sun doesn't change. So you can really budget out your power. Over 20 years, those economics have really proven themselves out. It's brought efficiency to our market. We've gotten better at being able to build these things and get them in the ground. As a result, our market has really flourished. And unfortunately we were at a really amazing point literally at the beginning of this year where we went, for instance, from 14th in the world in solar manufacturing, the third, because incentives behind things like the Iraq. We're getting manufacturing built, by the way, in many Republican districts. The governor of Georgia is a great example of someone who took wild advantage of this and went to an area in Georgia where it was literally dying. It was at the carpet center of the world. It was dying from manufacturing, attracted major solar manufacturers, and now, you know, we will be a net exporter of solar panels. We were at least on track to do that in the next two years.

[Krystal Ball]

Right.

[Reporter/Interviewer]

So those policies were working. This administration forecasted a year ago when Trump was in Houston and raised $1 billion from the fossil fuel or said to the fossil fuel executives, give me a billion dollars, I'm going to save your industry. Put a fracking executive in charge of the Department of Energy and now has been doing everything they can to slow the role of what is in Solar a $70 billion industry. Right. So back to your question. We now have a new policy landscape to execute under. And from Clean Capital's perspective, we're looking at where and how we can invest and bring projects. Unfortunately, you know, it's, they've narrowed the scope of where we can go, but it doesn't mean we're not building projects. We just had a ribbon cutting yesterday here in western New York where we put solar on a brownfield that was at one point one of the most polluted parts of the entire country.

[Ryan Grim]

So what Trump will say is that, look, wind and solar is a scam. Energy should be something that you make money from, not something that you have to subsidize. So what is the counter argument to his claim there?

[Reporter/Interviewer]

Well, first of all, they're wildly. Fossil fuel's been subsidized for 100 plus years. So the scam is actually the opposite. We have spent billions, if not trillions in fossil fuel subsidies. So let's just start off with, yeah, let's have a level playing field. And we are bringing infrastructure capital to grow things like solar and storage. That was not done 10 years ago. Right. It was a high risk market, but this is growing worldwide. You know, I would hold up my cell phone route and tell you this is where the world's going in terms of mobile phones. If we try to go back to the phone that was connected to the wall, because that's what the President wanted to do, all of us would be up in arms. Right. That's the transition that's happening right now in energy. And the question is, do we want to be the world leaders in this or do we want to go back to trying to get things done in a way that and often. Ryan, I heard you talk about the data center show a while back. You know, it takes seven to 10 years to build things like a natural gas plant or a nuclear plant. The demand we have is growing super fast. The cheapest, fastest way to do it is renewables. And we can bring all of those electrons to the grid regardless. So let us compete and we'll win. But they're putting handcuffs on us. You know, this BLM cancellation is a good example.

[Representative Ro Khanna]

Right.

[Reporter/Interviewer]

They're, they're looking at a project that has really taken it, probably hundreds of millions of dollars in investment ready to go, and they're cutting it off for purely political reasons. And that unfortunately is going to cost the electricity payers in that region significantly because that new power isn't going to come online and there's nothing to replace it in the near term.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah.

[Ryan Grim]

So can you talk a little bit about that? The handcuffs. So I think that is the best pushback to Trump where he says, hey, no subsidies, everybody should have to compete. But taking a project that had hundreds of millions of dollars in investment and approvals, or taking these 233 contracts that were doled out and just canceling them, that doesn't sound like a level playing field to me. But not at all. What else in a regulatory framework is happening that is making it not just that you're on a level playing field, but it's actively handicapping you against the fossil fuel industry?

[Reporter/Interviewer]

It's that uncertainty. Right. And when we think about the way you invest in anything, whether it be renewable energy or a new technology or building real estate, the less uncertainty, the more capital will flow to that market. They've entered uncertainty around the tax credits, around how you're going to look at something called fiat, which is where you're getting, it's a very in the weeds thing in the policy, but it's whether or not we can get any part of a system from China. Right. You know, American manufacturing is ramped up significantly, but still within the supply chain there's still bits that come from, from China. So how do we address that? And if you're going to put that handicap on us, let's also put it in the fossil fuel industry. Good luck building a natural gas plant today. That no bit of that natural gas plant comes from, from China.

[Ryan Grim]

Right.

[Reporter/Interviewer]

Those are the type of, of handicaps that they're trying to implement. And the sector of energy knows what he's doing. Right. He is an extremist who's come in to try to handicap this industry and he's doing everything he can to do so.

[Krystal Ball]

One thing I have heard often from people in the solar industry, and I'm curious if you can elaborate on this a bit, is that the technology is, advancements in the technology would surprise most people if they realize kind of the potential. And it's actually, I say this is somebody on the right who likes the idea of solar because it gets you off the grid. Right. If you have your own solar capabilities, there's just, you know, there's something independent about that if you're able to run your home on solar or something like that. But one of the things that I hear a lot is this is like leaps and bounds. Like when we're looking to the immediate future of solar, it's really, really promising in ways that maybe people don't recognize. Could you tell us a little bit about whether that's true?

[Reporter/Interviewer]

Yeah. So first in the technology piece, and I want to get to the political piece a second because you raise a really interesting point. So on the technology piece, leaps and bounds forward, we are, for instance, we built solar in Alaska, right. Recently, if you would ask me when we started this company 10 years ago, if that was possible, no way. But now, for instance, the panels can not just take the sun from the top, but they take it as reflected from the bottom, really driving up efficiency. Energy storage has come such a long way and is being implemented across the grid and will really be a key piece of stabilizing the grid. Just in the last few years, that technology has accelerated to a point that it's being, you know, there's almost a lack of batteries right now because so many people need it to help stabilize the grid. But back to the political piece for a second. This should not be a Republican and Democratic issue. You know, I think one of the things that gets lost in the big beautiful bill debate this summer, 22 House Republicans signed a letter saying, don't touch the tax credits, we need them. If this was a standalone energy bill, that would not have passed.

[Representative Ro Khanna]

Right.

[Reporter/Interviewer]

The genius of the administration, I'll give them credit for this, was flooding the zone with salt. Right. The state taxes, Medicaid, putting these folks in an uncomfortable position to decide how they're going to vote. We have to continue to build support on both sides, obviously in the Republican side more right now to continue to show that this technology is proven. Texas is the fastest growing solar state in the nation. Why is it the fastest growing solar state in the nation? Two years ago, Popo froze to death because the grid was unstable. Recently the head of the national group that manages the grid's reliability said it's because of solar and storage that Texas grid is back to being stable. Those are the leaders that we should be listening to in this debate, not some of the extremists that are pushing anti renewable policies instead of all the above policies and pragmatic energy policies that will move us forward.

[Ryan Grim]

And so the bottom line seems to be that if you want to build nuclear or natural gas turbines, natural gas, you're looking at seven years nuclear, you would be extremely lucky, given our track record, to get something online within seven years. Let's even say it's that whereas wind and solar, we're talking what, how long to get from starting to get it up?

[Reporter/Interviewer]

Yeah, 18 months to two years. I mean, it's for distributed solar. Big utility projects like the one that got canceled sometimes could take four plus depending on transmission, but it's much quicker and it's really a local game at that point on how to get it interconnected. And where, you know, the transition that's happening to the grid is we're going from these massive centralized systems that provided power and it was distributed across the country to a much more distributed type of production. So we can move quicker, get those things plugged in closer to the end use of the power. Right. That transition has been underway for about 15 or 20 years. Unfortunately, these guys are slowing that transition by trying to go back to that centralized system which has proven unstable.

[Ryan Grim]

Right.

[Reporter/Interviewer]

We want stability. We need to move from again, we're moving to this right from the telecon age of Ma Bell. Right. And we have to continue that transition because the rest of the world is. And if we don't, we're going to be left behind.

[Ryan Grim]

And so correct me if I'm wrong, the way that you end up getting your electric bill is a product of supply and demand where the utility gauges what the supply is that they have now and what they forecast will be the supply in the future against the demand that they have now and the demand that they expect in the future. Then they go to their regulators and they say, here's what we need to charge to make this work. So the supply, the only way to bring new supply on with any quickness seems to be to rely on these clean energy technologies because they can move faster. On the demand side, we seem to be building data centers everywhere all the time. And so the demand is going through the roof. And then tell me about the. Because you mentioned the tax credits, my understanding was that in the IRA tax credits when something like 20, 30 years, because as you mentioned, these projects take so long to get on and if you're going to make a multi billion dollar investment, this is something you care about for decades or maybe 15, 20 years. Whereas the one big beautiful bill cut those credits and they cut off at what, 20, 30 or something like that. So yeah, it's not exactly. How does that play in.

[Reporter/Interviewer]

Yeah, so first of all, in the utility question, you're right as to supply and demand issue. And right now demand is far outstripping supply. That's why utilities are having to ask for rate hikes. As you mentioned in a previous episode, the data centers are driving that and we need every type of supply we can to counteract that. If we wait seven years for a natural gas plant, everyone's going to be. Electricity bills are a top political issue today. You're seeing it in New Jersey, the governor's race. It's going to be the, it is going to be the egg prices of the midterms.

[Representative Ro Khanna]

Right.

[Reporter/Interviewer]

And the Trump administration knows that. That's why they're out blaming us when that's not the reality. But going back to your previous question on the tax credits, this is one of the things I was very active on Capitol Hill this spring because there's a lack of understanding of finance in the policy making realm in Washington.

[Representative Ro Khanna]

Right.

[Reporter/Interviewer]

The tax credits are something that are, you know, so as we build a project today, we can go to a taxpayer and they can get a credit to invest that money into this type of project. They can also do it for low income housing and other things. Right. This is a tool that's been used for decades to incentivize certain type of growth. What happens is though, when we're building projects, when we're looking out to, it takes us two years to get something built. But we're financing it today. Right. So we are looking at it when those tax, when's that tax credit cliff comes because it highly affects the type of capital we're putting into a project. The reality is the reason those tax credits were put in is because it helps keep the price of electrons lower on the backside. So it's like how much does it cost to build equals how much you're paying for the power. Right. We're now raising the price to build. It's going to raise the price to build for people are going to pay for electricity. The efficiency our market is getting though, is helping to negate some of that, which is exciting. But the reality is it's still an issue for projects really 26 and beyond. And we are trying to figure out today what does that look like and how are we going to sort of build and finance and the reality is where we're going to build and finance because we are. The question is, where is it going to work? Great.

[Ryan Grim]

Well, John Powers will. Great last name, by the way.

[Krystal Ball]

Nominal Determinism.

[Ryan Grim]

Clean Capital Energy. Thanks for walking us through this. Really appreciate it.

[Reporter/Interviewer]

Yeah, thank you guys for having me. I appreciate it.

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[Krystal Ball]

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[Krystal Ball]

Well, as I mentioned earlier in the show, Ryan rambled in here off his bike this morning and said he apparently knows the future President of Ireland and rather than just treat him as a crazy individual, I think we're gonna indulge him. He has a claim.

[Ryan Grim]

Once in a while you gotta just indulge those claims because they might be true. Catherine Connolly is running for President of Ireland. The polls have her enormously ahead and the election is on Friday. She is expected to be the next President of Ireland. When I was in Dublin over the summer, I met up with Abu Bakr Abed, my old, not my old, my colleague at Dropsite. He was reported for us from Gaza. He's now in Ireland.

[Krystal Ball]

He's very young, actually.

[Ryan Grim]

Young guy. And we teamed up with the Ditch and Pauly Doyle and did an event with the woman who had just launched her presidential campaign at the time, Katherine Connolly, and was held at the, at the. In the basement of this, this pub. And it was a really riveting conversation. And to see her in conversation with Abu Bakr was. Was quite interesting. You can see the entire. We'll link to the entire thing down in the show notes, but we'll play, you know, about 15 minutes of it after this. But after that, she had a series of kind of controversies in, in the presidential race where, for instance, she said she was asked to condemn Hamas. And she said, look, Hamas is part of the fabric of Palestinian society. Who are we as people who won our own liberation, our own anti colonial struggle to tell other people how to run their liberation struggle. And, you know, Irish elites were pretty, like, aghast at that comment. Irish voters were like, yeah, that tracks. And so she's on track to be the next president of Ireland. So let's roll a little bit of this, this clip. And so this, this starts with Catherine Connolly getting asked by Pauly Doyle why there's this gap between what the Irish kind of public wants its government to do when it comes to relations with Israel and Palestine and what the Irish government actually does.

[Krystal Ball]

And you guys are. You guys are in the basement of a pub over the summer. So this would have been July or August.

[Ryan Grim]

Yeah. Yes. And as you can see in there, she starts off by joking about how insanely hot it was. It was like over 100 degrees. The room was, you know, absolutely packed, standing room only. And they don't have air conditioning over in Dublin, so you can see we are all sweating bullets in there. But it was very much worth it and it was cool. We have a ton of job site and breaking points, viewers and readers in Dublin, which is also kind of cool to see believable. So this is. This is for y'.

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[Abu Bakr Abed]

This is the first time I've been in a sauna with all my clothes on. A communal sauna. I don't mean to be flippant. I don't know where to go with this, really, because it's overwhelming to listen to yourself here. I don't know what words to follow. I don't know how we've come to the stage where we're hearing that description and trying to explain it. Something has gone horribly wrong with humanity, with the narrative and you're asking me directly about the government. I actually think the government believe their own rhetoric to a certain extent. I think the government believe their rhetoric to a certain extent. I think they actually believe they're doing something and they're the best boys in the class or the best girls in the class. And they've told us that repeatedly for fear we didn't understand it the first time. And so it's. We've reduced the world to them and us. We're really back to that, them and us. We're back to you're with us or again, us. And it's frightening, actually, to watch it on a daily basis. And if we look at Palestine well before 6th October, on 2023, as has been set out, slaughter was going on one way or another. And when, when Hamas went over the border, we had to continuously, every time we spoke, condemn that like. Like the refrain and the rosary we had to say absolutely, and give that refrain to. To legitimize what we were going to say. Some people were more courageous than I and said they wouldn't condemn it. I actually had no difficulty condemning it because I was horrified at the violence, as I am with all violence. However, as we all know here, history did not begin on that day. But we were never allowed to give a context that was not permitted in the Doll without over and over condemning the attack. And of course, context is very important. And so we're not allowed do that, and we've struggled to do that. And I want to thank you because you have no idea the importance of your. Of your protest and all the protests that have taken place over the country. It's really, really important. You mightn't think it, but it is having an influence on politicians. However, I don't know how long we can keep on with a genocide going on in front of our eyes. The word ironic is not the right word. But just last week we had a minute silence for Srebrenica, rightly so. We met no connection with the ongoing genocide in Palestine. And so there's a disconnect all of the time. And you ask me, how do we move from the government's rhetoric? There's a complete disconnect on so many levels, so many levels between the government who think they're doing fantastic and the actual feeling on the ground. So in my ex. In my time in the Doll, Amnesty published their report and they said there was an apartheid regime in being operated by Israel, and our government told us they were uncomfortable with the word apartheid. They actually said, we don't really want to talk about that. Uncomfortable with that word. So we let that go. And then six human rights organizations were described and designated as terrorist organizations. We let that go. We waited for the evidence. The government said there was no evidence ever produced. And then we watched the slaughter of men, women and children of journalists. And I don't need to say all of this, but you know, it's important to say it because we're actually watching the slaughter. We're watching the UN being dismantled. We're watching language becoming meaningless. I never understood Kafka when I was doing German. I wasn't able. I fully understand Kafka now. I can tell you after my years in the doll Since 2016, things just happen. Things just happen. You know, things are just happening in Palestine has nothing to do with Israel really. And, and that. So I struggle. I struggle. I have read everything I possibly can. I came from a background of leon Uris Exodus Mila 18. I think I wanted to go to the kibbutz. Let me say there isn't an anti Semitic bone in my body. I wouldn't tolerate it. But that's the background I came from. And I've made a journey in trying to understand Palestine and read everything I can. The latest. I had the privilege of launching a book in Galway by Finton Drury and I recommend it. So where am I going with this? We have no choice but to speak out. We're at a point in history where we really have to use our voices to make language mean something, to make our actions mean something. And when we try that, we're demonized, we're isolated. All the tricks of the book to do that with the help of a media that's colluding. So I thank you very much because it's not easy to provide an alternative media, but it's essential because we're not going to get it from the leadership in the dole and we're not going to get it. And I'll finish just maybe, you know, misinformation and disinformation. And I tend to laugh nearly hysterically when I hear that about the government bringing in legislation or something to counter disinformation. In my experience, most disinformation comes from governments, from institutions, from institutions who protect themselves in a self serving manner and a narrative all the time. And that consensus mentality to me is the greatest threat to democracy. And so if we go back and I'll finish on this, the banking inquiry. Nyberg did his banking inquiry and published his report and what jumped off the page was the consensus mentality that allowed the banking crisis and fast forward to the 2025. And the same mentality is evident in relation to the children's hospital, the various debacles in Dublin. And I sit on the Public Accounts Committee. I've read all the reports and the biggest thing was the absence of questioning. That's what led to all of these very, very serious issues. Neglect of children, the absence of questioning and a consensus mentality. So on one level, I don't wish to add to your despair in this sauna in here, we've learned nothing. On the other hand, I learn all the time because it's the only thing we have left is to keep learning, keep acting and using our voice because we have to give hope. We have to stand with the people of Palestine because if we let it happen, there's serious consequences for us as a nation and for humanity. Where are we going if we let this happen?

[Tim Miller]

I think in my opinion that like since I've arrived here and just to let people know that the most well known European country or western country the Gazans know is Ireland. By the way, there is so much love to you, so much really hope in you from Gans and they're always talking about you and this hasn't started since this genocide started in October, but it's always been durable for many, many, many years in and we're very well aware of that. But I think I've arrived here. One thing the Irish government is quite worried about is that it is very pressured by you, by the protests. But what we're seeing every single day from protests, calls to end the apartheid regime, to pass the occupied territories bill and to cut the Israeli bonds and everything. I am aware of that. But I think in my opinion the only obstacle that the government has is America because it doesn't want to, it doesn't want to make America angry with it. And America, Israel controls America, not the other way around. So the Irish government is because there are a lot of investments here from Americans in this country and we're all aware of that and have seen that and I've read about it, but also this government and doesn't like it. What it's all doing is just blazing the United States and the US administration and that if we make the US angry, we can't attack Israel or we can't do whatever we want. So. But we have to be really aware of what it means. I don't think any of you is happy that your aerospace is allowed to be used to transport fighter jets from America to Israel to kill bomb children. I don't think any of you is happy with that. I don't think that those politicians were still voting for a genocide over the Israeli bombs. Or I'll say in mere platitudes, and particularly the Irish newspapers here, particularly the Irish Times and the rte, were still producing stories justifying the ongoing slaughter that we're seeing every single day. No one should be allowed to accept this. So what Palestinians need from the government, because in the end there is hope and people who are still, who still care, there is hope in people who still, you know, who still have a heart, a pure heart about the plight of an entire population. And think about it. Which part of this world is being bombed? Which part of this world is suffering? Which part of this world is being starved? Which part of this world is being exterminated every single day? It's only Gaza. So why are we not having just the mere rights of any human beings around the world? Why this Irish government, which knows the meaning of colonization, which might, which knows the meaning of starvation, which knows the meaning of imperialism, it knows everything about us because it has been colonized by British, by Britain, so it knows everything. So why this government is still not acting? Because in the end, Gaza is the prologue and then everything will happen. And you know that Britain is, is funding this. Britain is, is the most complicit probably country in this genocide after the US Administration or after the United States. So what Palestinians need from the government, from this government is just to listen to its people, as I told you, like, pass the occupied territories bill, cut the Israeli bonds. It's not important. Like it's not going to be the end of the world. And just listen to your people. It's enough. It's enough slaughter. So this complicity just to allow in the Shenanigan airport, allow fighting jets without even interrogating them, without even stopping them, without even asking them anything, but rather you will see people saluting them here, they're in the airport. And this is just absolutely not something that you really want. So what we all want from this government is just to listen to its people. Like, do not. Like, if you don't want to help, the least you can do. Don't contribute to killing us. That's all we want as Palestinians.

[Ryan Grim]

Maybe, Catherine, you could speak to that question about the role of the US and then if you did become president, my understanding is a pretty ceremonial position, but in that ceremony there could be interactions with the Vice president of the United States, the president, United States, if there are meetings Would, Would you take meetings like that? Or, or how would you use the office to try to get the yoke of. Of the US off of Irish government so that it could have a more democratic connection to its public?

[Abu Bakr Abed]

Hello. Am I speaking from the diaphragm? That's quite a complex question. I'll do my best. Where do I go with this? I am. I am who I am. I can't be. I can't pretend. My only strength is my honesty and what I feel. And I do my best to educate myself and speak, reflect and speak. So it seems to me I have no choice but to use my voice to speak out. I can't be presumptuous enough to jump ahead being president. I'm not trying to avoid your question. It's certainly. Let me take it before then. I think, as you've said, we're absolutely, intricately bunged up with America. They determine our policy. We're allowing the bullies to determine our policy. So we have a bully in America who changes his mind. But the problem didn't start with the bully in America who changes his mind every five minutes every day. It started before that, when the Democrats failed to see what was happening and when they failed to see people turning away from the Democrats and they failed to analyze it. If we come back here, the government is out of touch. They simply don't realize the strength of outrage on the ground, not just in relation to the genocide in Palestine, but in relation to war, the normalization of war, the normalization of genocide, the normalization of homelessness, of a housing crisis, all of which shouldn't be normal. And people are outraged on the ground and are crying out for. For solutions. And we have the solutions. But the narrative from the advisors and from the neoliberal ideology is very, very strong with the help of the press. So if we go back to Ireland, Ireland has done very well by its government in terms of the recognition of Palestine. However, I'm on record for saying the recognizing Palestine when it's almost destroyed. So while they're clapping themselves on the back, in one sense, it's easy to understand them because they are top of the class compared with other countries, including Arab countries, they are top of the class. So they see themselves as doing very well. What we see, what we see is democracy in peril because we either agree with the narrative that we need to be very careful with America. And we heard the ambassador, I think the American ambassador to Israel telling us we were intoxicated on our own narrative, but we need to stand up because we have everything to lose if we don't. Whether I do that now as a candidate for the presidency and in the best way I can, if I was president, certainly. And under the constitution, the role of the president is set out and it's narrow enough. The symbolism of this is very important because as we know in this country from Northern Ireland as well, symbols are powerful and they can be used. So the symbolic role can be used and I must comply with my duties if I was there under the constitution and by law. However, one of the articles gives the president specific role in relation to the welfare of the people of Ireland. And that's quite a broad part in the constitution. I, the person becoming president takes a public vow. Absolutely. A solemn promise to serve the people of Ireland and the welfare of Ireland. And so I don't think the welfare of Ireland is served by us joining warmongers by adding to the military industrial complex. I think we have everything to lose and nothing to gain by increasing. Of course we need to look after our defence forces. So let me get that on the record. But joining in the boys club to back up the profit driven arms industry is not in our interest and we have everything to lose by doing that. We have to use our voice for peace. Will I do that if I was elected and had the privilege of being president? You couldn't stop me. You couldn't stop me using my voice for peace. You couldn't stop me as a mother of two children who were grown up and are two men now. So they're not around and they're not embarrassed by that. But once a mother, always a mother. I'm horrified that we would be using war as a way to achieve peace. It's back to front. So we should, we're, we should be working. And that's what I would do as a president. Working to make the Republic mean something. Working towards the united Ireland with consent and recognizing diversity and using my voice, but more importantly, acting as a role model. That's a bit pretentious, but enabling and empowering people on the ground to use their voices, whether that's for peace or to do what they want to do, it is vital. And as I said earlier on, we're at a turning point. So we need people to take courage in their hands and use their voices. Consensus is not healthy. Dissent is very good. And diversity and the cherishing of diversity, it's absolutely vital for a functioning, healthy democracy.

[Ryan Grim]

Okay, that's it for us. And we'll see you on Friday. Right?

[Krystal Ball]

We'll see you on Friday. I did want to mention I was referencing a report that was done by a conservative group on and connections between Open Society, Tides funding, that sort of stuff going into groups that potentially are knowingly funding literal ruckus in this case. So I was trying to remember whose study it was. It was Capital Research Group or Capital Research center, which is a conservative group. And they have a report that is pretty interesting.

[Reporter/Interviewer]

Ryan.

[Krystal Ball]

I was talking just a little bit about it while we were between segments that. But they show Open Society has sent money into a group called the Ruckus Society, also something called the center for Third World Organizing. You can check that out on your.

[Ryan Grim]

Own, make your own decisions. And those groups do direct action. They do.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah.

[Ryan Grim]

I wouldn't call it violent at all, but they do direct action.

[Krystal Ball]

So again, yeah, to just reiterate what we said in that segment, I'm not trying to make the case that there's a vast right wing. There's a vast left wing conspiracy, I should say, to send Soros money to literal black box violence taking over America's cities. But you can go ahead and check out that study. We'll link it.

[Ryan Grim]

We are not funded by liberal philanthropy. So go to braggingpoints.com, upgrade your to a premium subscription and make sure that we don't have to go with our tin cup to Soros and the Tides Foundation.

[Krystal Ball]

That's right. Yeah. We are only 90% funded by Soros. 0%. We're funded by you. We're funded by you. We're so grateful for that. So breakingpoints.com, you can get a premium subscription which gets you you access to the second half of the Friday show where we really have all the fun and do amas. And maybe Lyle will show up again sometime soon.

[Ryan Grim]

We can hope. All right, we'll see you there.

[Krystal Ball]

See you.

[Representative Ro Khanna]

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[Ryan Grim]

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[Krystal Ball]

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[Ryan Grim]

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[Representative Ro Khanna]

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[Reporter/Interviewer]

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[Ryan Grim]

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