10/27/25: Binance CEO Pardon, Zohran Rally, Bill Maher Trashes Zohran, KJP Confronted On Gaza

Summary

Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar: Episode Summary

Date: October 27, 2025
Episode Title: Binance CEO Pardon, Zohran Rally, Bill Maher Trashes Zohran, KJP Confronted On Gaza

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Overview

This episode of Breaking Points dives into several major political stories: the controversial presidential pardon of Binance CEO Changpeng Zhao (“CZ”), the rising influence of Democratic socialist Zohran Mamdani in New York City, establishment backlash and Islamophobia against his campaign, and Karine Jean-Pierre’s (KJP) book tour and defense of Biden administration Gaza policy. Krystal Ball and Saagar Enjeti offer their characteristic sharp takes, focusing on corruption, shifting political coalitions, identity politics, and accountability.

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Main Topics and Key Insights

1. Trump Pardons Binance CEO CZ: Corruption Allegations

(02:14 – 14:32)

• Key Facts:

  • Trump issues a pardon for Binance founder Changpeng Zhao ("CZ"), who had pled guilty to money laundering (2023) and served 4 months in prison.
  • The pardon followed a reported $2 billion business deal between Binance and World Liberty Financial, a Trump family crypto startup.
  • CZ hired lawyers and lobbyists with ties to the Trump administration (notably “Theresa Goody Guillen” and “Chez McDowell,” both names the hosts mock as unlikely-sounding).
  • Critics see this as a pay-to-play “naked way for people to directly bribe him [Trump]” (Saagar, 09:09).

• Panel’s View:

  • The hosts see direct personal corruption, with Krystal citing Forbes:

    "Crypto now accounts for most of Donald Trump’s net worth. An estimated 3.3 billion of his total 5.5 billion..." (10:36)

  • Saagar argues,

    “It’s a crime spree. It’s an open season for a crime spree. If you happen to be one of his friends, or wealthy enough to buy that kind of access.” (11:20)

• Broader Implications:

  • Ro Khanna (D-CA) proposes a bill to ban crypto trading for presidents and members of Congress (he appears in a clip, 14:32).
  • Both hosts agree corruption doesn’t just come from one party but call out the scale and directness of Trump’s enrichment via crypto.

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2. The Zohran Mamdani Rally: Progressive Triumph and Party Tensions

(19:50 – 35:32)

• Event Recap:

  • Massive, “electric” rally for Zohran Mamdani draws AOC, Bernie Sanders, and even moderate NY Governor Kathy Hochul (who faces chants to “tax the rich” from the crowd).
  • Saagar notes,

    “The fact that you have these figures all coming together now behind Zoran and him really kind of running the show and putting pressure on the sitting governor to back his policies is quite an extraordinary moment.” (23:14)

• Broader Context:

  • Krystal calls Zohran’s populism “happy populism—a hard thing to do when you’re talking about people’s immiseration and corruption” (24:58).
  • Panel compares Zohran’s rise to earlier Tea Party/Trump movements—a grassroots rebellion within the party.

• Electoral Dynamics:

  • High turnout in Brooklyn and Queens (Zohran strongholds) portend a blowout; skepticism toward polling underestimating his support, especially among youth and new voters.

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3. Media Attacks and Islamophobia: Cuomo, Sliwa, and Bill Maher Target Zohran

(38:46 – 49:22)

• Incendiary Islamophobia:

  • Andrew Cuomo, Sliwa, and right-wing radio hosts accuse Zohran of being a “jihadist” and sympathetic to terrorists—rhetoric that has escalated as other attacks failed.
  • Zohran, himself a 9/11 survivor, addresses this directly in a speech to NYC’s Muslims:

    “I want to use this moment to speak to the Muslims of New York City...to the memory of my aunt who stopped taking the subway after September 11 because she did not feel safe in her hijab…” (40:30)

  • Krystal notes the demonization “has been bipartisan ugliness.” (43:22)

• Bill Maher’s Criticism:

  • On his show, Maher suggests that Zohran should renounce Ugandan citizenship due to Uganda’s anti-LGBT laws, insinuating guilt by association (47:55).
    • Saagar calls it out as hypocrisy in light of Maher’s silence on dual US-Israeli citizenship.
    • Krystal jokes, "Have you heard about the Tel Aviv pride parade?" mocking Maher's selective outrage. (49:13)

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4. Enormous Stakes for Party Identity and Policy

(29:39 – 35:01)

• Leftward Shift:

  • The episode frames Zohran and AOC as representing a bold, unapologetic left-populist alternative to the status quo.
  • Saagar:

    "Let’s embrace the new, young wave of left populism, and unapologetically so, and see how people respond to it. Because thus far... what we see is Bernie Sanders is the most popular politician in the country. Zoran is an up and coming rock star..." (25:01)

• Vision Contrast:

  • AOC’s rally speech is played, highlighting NYC as “built by the Irish escaping famine, Italians fleeing fascism, Jews escaping Holocaust…” (27:59)
  • Saagar says this pluralistic vision is in direct contrast to the “blood and soil nationalist vision” ascendant in right-wing circles and the Trump administration.

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5. Karine Jean-Pierre’s Book Tour and Biden Policy on Gaza

(52:08 – 64:31)

• Hostile Interview:

  • KJP pressed on MSNBC by Eamonn Moyledine for her defense of Biden’s Gaza policy; she repeatedly dodges, falling back on “I was just speaking for the president.” (52:33)
  • Krystal:

    “Everyone’s buying the book now" [sarcastically]. (54:22)

    • The hosts and guest Emily lambaste KJP’s focus on identity and loyalty to Biden over policy substance.

• Washington Post Review:

  • The hosts read from Becca Rothfeld’s scathing review:

    "Jean Pierre is an artifact of an age that looks recent on paper but feels prehistoric in practice... the age of pantsuits, the word empowerment, the musical Hamilton..." (56:49)

  • Krystal breaks it down:

    "It seems like what she cares about is identity...all you care about is identity. You’ve seen it over and over again in Karine Jean Pierre’s interview."

• Identity Politics Backlash:

  • Multiple hosts point out that subjugating content and substance to identity undermines real progress:

    "That falls completely flat now in a way that it wouldn’t have in 2019." (58:26 - Krystal Ball)

  • Saagar sarcastically:

    "Okay, well, case closed." (64:00), after reading KJP’s musical awards/identity-laden arguments.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Corruption:

  “It’s just a pyramid scheme. That’s all it is. But he is the scammer in chief, you know…”
  —Saagar (11:19)

• On Zohran's Islamophobia Attacks:

  “What you are doing is softening it so that if you actually had somebody who was, like, a Sharia follower who ran for office, that has no meaning anymore.”
  —Krystal Ball (43:43)

• On KJP and Identity Politics:

  “Subjugating content to identity and subjugating substance to identity... you end up actually undercutting the work that people who have those identities are actually contributing.”
  —Krystal Ball (61:27)

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• Trump & Binance Pardon, Corruption Deep Dive: 02:14 – 14:32
• Ro Khanna Anti-Corruption Proposal: 14:32 – 16:13
• Zohran Mamdani NYC Rally Highlights: 19:50 – 25:01
• AOC’s Pluralist Vision Speech: 27:59 – 28:15
• Islamophobic & Racist Attacks on Zohran: 38:46 – 43:43
• Bill Maher on Zohran, Dual Citizenship: 47:55 – 49:22
• Karine Jean-Pierre’s Gaza Defense & Review: 52:08 – 64:31

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Conclusion

This episode knits together themes of political corruption, the challenges facing populist insurgencies, and the limitations of identity politics. Breaking Points’ hosts pull no punches: whether scrutinizing the crypto-pardon connection in the Trump White House, dissecting grassroots energy behind figures like Zohran, or roasting the vacuity of establishment narratives, they stress the urgent need for substance and genuine accountability in politics. The episode is a must-listen for anyone following America’s new waves of populism, systemic corruption, and the future of both parties.

Transcript

[Krystal Ball]

This is an iHeart podcast.

[Saagar Enjeti]

I turned off news altogether. I hate to say it, but I.

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Don'T trust much of anything.

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It's the rage bait.

[Saagar Enjeti]

It feels like it's trying to divide people.

[Krystal Ball]

We got clear facts. Maybe we can calm down a little.

[Crystal Ball]

NBC News brings you clear reporting.

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Let's meet at the facts. Let's move forward from there.

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[Krystal Ball]

Hey guys, Sagar and Krystal here.

[Saagar Enjeti]

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[Saagar Enjeti]

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[Krystal Ball]

We need your help to build the future of independent news media and we.

[Crystal Ball]

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[Saagar Enjeti]

All right, so we have a new pardon coming from the Trump administration. This one from Binance founder commonly known as cz. Caroline Levitt was asked to defend this deal. Let's go ahead and take a listen to what she had to say on.

[Crystal Ball]

The pardon of Changpeng Zhao. Apologies if I'm mispronouncing that name. Finance has significant business interests with World Liberty Financial, the president's Chinese crypto company. How do you respond to the allegations from Democrats that this is a corrupt act?

[Krystal Ball]

I would respond and say the president is exercising his constitutional authority to grant clemency requests. And the president and the White House have a very thorough examination of every pardon request that comes to the president's desk. It is thoroughly reviewed by the White House counsel office. And I spoke with our great White House counsel about the pardon after it happened. This was an overly prosecuted case by the Biden administration. Even the judge in the case admitted that the Biden administration was pursuing a egregious over sentencing of this individual. And the previous administration was very hostile to the cryptocurrency industry. So the President wants to correct this overreach of the Biden administration's misjustice and he exercised his constitutional authority to do so. And to the Democrats, I would just say there's nothing more corrupt than what President Biden did on his way out the door pardoning his extremely corrupt son and many of his associates. Associates.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Oh my God. The what about is. I'm so sick of just so you guys. So let's put D2 up on the screen to give you guys the backstory. So first of all, if you're not a crypto person, Binance is a giant in the space. I think it processes some like two thirds of all crypto transactions. So this is an incredibly powerful company that he's created.

[Krystal Ball]

It's all like that, a visa or something.

[Saagar Enjeti]

It's also an incredibly sketchy company that he has created. And this is, I've done, you know, did a lot of digging into this character because there were a lot of questions when SBF was taken down and CZ was involved in that by the way. But then there was a bit of a run on Binance. There's a question whether they had sufficient reserves. They at that time really didn't have any like accounting to back up the claims that they were making publicly their allegation. There were longtime allegations, including some that were borne out and the company took action on with regard to insider trading. Because one of the things that's really important about Binance to understand here is that if they decide to list your whatever shit currency then it's, it's incredibly important.

[Krystal Ball]

Crystal core.

[Saagar Enjeti]

So. Yeah, exactly. So if you have insider knowledge that they're about to list it and they're about to tout it, oh well, guess what, you can make a lot of money off of that. So in this, you know, sort of wild west space. So according to the New York times, they say Mr. Zhao had pled guilty to money laundering violations in 2023. Served four months in federal prison after a years long investigation by financial regulators and U.S. prosecutors to seek the pardon. Zhao hired lawyers and lobbyists with ties to the Trump administration while Binance struck a business deal with World Libert. The Trump family's crypto startup. This was not just any business deal, by the way. We're talking about a $2 billion business deal that they did with Trump's family crypto startup. Mr. Zhao is the most powerful executive, they say, in the crypto industry, worth an estimated 85 billion. He commands a vast social media following of worshipful investors who view him as something of a crypto oracle. With a few well timed posts in 2022, he helped prompt a market panic that resulted in the demise of ftx. That was Sam Bankman Fried's entity, the exchange that was once one of Binance's top r. To spearhead his clemency push, Mr. Zhao hired Theresa Goody Guillen, a former securities and Exchange Commission lawyer who also happens to represent Zach Witkoff, the son of Trump's Middle east advisor. Working alongside that lawyer was Chez McDowell, a lawyer and lobbyist who is a longtime hunting companion of Don Jr.

[Krystal Ball]

It's not a name though, that's a made up name. I don't believe that's a real name.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Both are, I think, fake names.

[Krystal Ball]

Chez McDowell.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Goody Guillen and Chez McDowell.

[Krystal Ball]

Ches McDowell.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Anyway, Mr. McDowell was apparently spotted with Trump Jr. At the White House last week. So did the $2 billion deal, I'm sure. Said all kinds of nice things. God only knows whether he was funneling money into Trump's shit coin because we have no transparency around that. Certainly possible as well. And then hired friend of Zach witkoff and Don Jr. To get this deal done. That's how this White House operates.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah, Witkoff. So Zach Witkoff is the founder of the Trump crypto firm World Liberty Financial. And so the World Liberty Financial of it all actually even dwarfs the fact that Binance has hired like Ballard Partners, which is a very. That's where Pam Bondi and Susie Wiles had lobbied before entering the administration. So yes, they've hired the lobbyists and all of that, but what does that even matter when you're so your family is so heavily invested in a similar. Well, actually in something that benefits from the industry. That CZ is so powerful that the industry benefits like it's. If he gets a cold, the industry. If he sneezes, the industry gets a cold. It's that type of relationship. And the other thing I wanted to mention from the New York Times coverage here that. Sorry, it's just a little bit amusing to see it put like this. Long considered the crypto industry's richest man, Mr. Zhao, a Chinese born executive who now lives in the UAE admitted that he had violated the law by failing to install rigorous compliance systems at Binance that allowed people in countries under sanctions and terrorist groups like Hamas, Al Qaeda, and the Islamic State to move money on his platform. So while everyone is right now calling Zoramdani a jihadist, here you have a man being pardoned that, according to the Times, allowed terrorist groups like Hamas, Al Qaeda in the Islamic State to move money around.

[Crystal Ball]

Hmm.

[Krystal Ball]

Complicit might be the word.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Interesting. Let's put Coffeezilla's tweet. Guys, this is D4 up on the screen just to give you the timeline of, like, the business transactions here. And of course, he is losing his mind over all of this. He says backstory is CZ's pardon. So November 2023, Binance and CZ plead guilty, $4 billion plus fine. March 2025, Trump World Liberty Financial launches a C stablecoin called USD1. Stablecoins are like back to currency or I think in this case, yeah, treasury bonds. March 2025, $2 billion investment into Binance by MGX. May 2025, $2 billion investment was paid for in USD1. So $2 billion going into this WLFI stablecoin. May 2025, CZ admits he applied for a pardon. October 2025, CZ gets a pardon. Result USD1 is backed by Treasuries. This yields 60 to 80 million dollars per year for World Liberty Financial, so long as Binance does not redeem that $2 billion in USD 1. So he sort of breaks down here for you the timeline and the net cash benefit directly into the pockets of the President of the United States. And we could uphold, and maybe we will in a future show. Tucker is out there saying, I think that Bitcoin is the CIA op.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Which is interesting as well, because he's like, they're using this as another way to steal from you and control you, etc. Trump previously had been very skeptical of crypto. He said he didn't like that it was a competitor to the dollar. That was his initial instinct. Well, that instinct changed dramatically when he received money from industry insiders and then himself realized how much he could personally cash in to the tude of billions of dollars on his own crypto coin, the way that his supporters flooded money in. And then in addition, it's a just naked way for people to directly bribe him. So Trump's personal net worth has skyrocketed. I mean, most really think about this. Most of Trump's net worth at this point has come about since he was Inaugurated this second time around. So already, obviously, a tremendously wealthy guy. The bulk of his net worth is from his direct corruption during this presidency.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah. This is Forbes in June. Crypto now accounts for most of Donald Trump's net worth. So an estimated 3.3 billion of his total, 5.5 billion lies in, quote, the buzzy industry, according to Forbes. But what that means is it's all come just in the last year or so. This is a man who has been known, renowned as a billionaire for decades and a tabloid fixture. His entire show was based on his business success. And now most of his net worth isn't from any of that. It's from crypto. And of course, crypto, you can argue, was built on his reputation, and the coin is built on his reputation, whatever, but it's not any. It has nothing to do with real estate.

[Saagar Enjeti]

It has nothing to do with real anything.

[Krystal Ball]

Well, yeah, that's.

[Saagar Enjeti]

These are just. I mean, it's just a purely fake estate. Imaginary. Yeah, yeah, imaginary. You can't even call it an asset. It's just speculation. It's just a pyramid scheme. That's all it is. But he is the scammer in chief, you know, and so that's why it disgusts me to hear Caroline Levitt being. Well, what about Hunter Biden? Like, Hunter Biden and his frickin paintings and Burisma and whatever. If you guys had a problem with that, that is nothing. And I did have a problem. I still have a problem with it 100%. It is nothing compared to one of the scams that Trump has run in the second term, one of the corrupt deals that they have struck. It's just wild. Not to mention in the CZ case demonstrates this incredibly clearly, the way that if you get on his good side and you hire the right people and you got enough money, the laws don't apply to you. You can get away with whatever. This president is actually antithetical to law and order, Truly. Because, yes, if you're. Letitia James is gonna dig up some mortgage application that you made a mistake on and fixed later on, and he's gonna throw the book at you. If you're George Santos or one of the other 10 Republican congressmen who committed crimes, you'll get off scot free. If you're rich enough to pay your way in and willing to, like, kiss the ring, then you'll get off scot free. It's a crime spree. It's an open season for a crime spree. If you happen to be one of his friends. Or wealthy enough to buy that kind of access.

[Krystal Ball]

That's the other part of this. Like with some of these Hunter Biden deals, there's a very strong evidence that foreign policy was being manipulated by Hunter Biden. Laundering his family name and selling access. This is the entire crypto industry that Donald Trump. Like, why is Trump making so much money in crypto? Why is he getting these great deals through? It's because of what he's doing for the crypto industry. Like, what he's doing for this industry that he himself was once deeply skeptical of, that many Americans are deeply skeptical of, and that includes huge concentrations of power, much to the chagrin of people. We interviewed someone on this recently who used to be super involved in Bitcoin world, Peter Ryan, I think. Yes. He came on the show and talked about the dream, sort of like the dream of the Internet. It's the same thing with the dream of crypto, that it would be decentralizing power. And right now, it's very, very clearly doing the opposite.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yeah.

[Krystal Ball]

And Trump, his net worth is tied to that industry's fortune and favor. And that's part of the. It's not just that Trump is enriching himself. It's that he's enriching himself at the sake of the economy, because crypto is now a significant. What's the best way to put it? Manipulator. Of the entire economy. Yeah, the entire economy is.

[Saagar Enjeti]

It's completely intertwined.

[Krystal Ball]

It's intertwined.

[Saagar Enjeti]

That's the right way. And these people are too big to fail. Like, there's, you know, at some point in the future, we'll probably be on the hook for some kind of a crypto bailout.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah.

[Saagar Enjeti]

You know. Yeah. So I did want to give credit. Ro Khanna has his eye trained on this problem, especially with regard to the President, his family's corruption. He's introducing a bill to ban this sort of crypto trading for members of Congress and for the President. Let's go ahead and take a listen what he had to say in response.

[Crystal Ball]

To Trump's pardon of the former Binance CEO. You heard what Senator Elizabeth Warren said. If Congress doesn't stop this kind of corruption, Congress owns this kind of corruption. Explain to me how exactly Congress can do that. Elizabeth Warren is spot on. Look, we have a president who is enriching himself and his family in an obscene wealth that is unprecedented in American history. And people need to wake up to what's going on. It's corruption right before our very eyes. I mean, you had a foreign billionaire who was convicted criminally of money laundering to Hamas and to Iran. And he invests money in the President's family's stablecoin and that basically helps him get a pardon. And the President's family is making millions of dollars. As President, United States, I'm introducing a resolution to say that we need to stop the President, his family, or any members of Congress from trading in crypto and certainly from accepting any money from foreign governments or foreign entities. It is corrupt.

[Saagar Enjeti]

So I appreciate Roe making moves on this bill. I don't know how. I doubt it'll even come to a vote. But, you know, if it did, I don't see how you can. I don't see how you can oppose it. Like, I'm sure if you ask the American people what 95% would be like, yes, of course there should be a ban on this type of, you know, trading and the direct corruption that it enables. But, you know, that's. You want to talk about a democracy problem? That's the kind of democracy problem that we already have.

[Krystal Ball]

That is the congressman from Silicon Valley, for what it's worth.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yeah, it's a great point.

[Krystal Ball]

I mean, think if you're like, on the fence about this, nobody has a better front row seat to corruption in this industry than Roe.

[Saagar Enjeti]

But, you know, we. Sager and I interviewed Shoekai Chakrabadi, who's running for Congress against Nancy Pelosi in San Francisco, and Sager asked him a question about like, well, what about these rich tech guys? Like, aren't you going to have to cater to them? And sure, God was like, well, even though there's more probably millionaires per capita in this area than most parts of the country, they still are a tiny percentage of the electorate.

[Krystal Ball]

Right.

[Saagar Enjeti]

So if you're actually catering to the vast working class in the Bay Area and in San Francisco specifically, you still have a much larger base of voting support than if you're just trying to cater to these few multimillionaires. And that Roe appears to be operating on a similar logic here. Yeah, you know who else is operating on a similar logic?

[Krystal Ball]

Who's that?

[Saagar Enjeti]

Zoran Mamdani in New York City. Not catering to the oligarchs on your.

[Krystal Ball]

A game this morning.

[Saagar Enjeti]

I turned off news altogether. I hate to say it, but I.

[Krystal Ball]

Don'T trust much of anything.

[Crystal Ball]

It's the rage bait.

[Saagar Enjeti]

It feels like it's trying to divide people.

[Krystal Ball]

We got clear facts. Maybe we could calm down a little bit.

[Crystal Ball]

NBC News brings you clear reporting.

[Krystal Ball]

Let's meet at the facts. Let's move forward.

[Crystal Ball]

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[Saagar Enjeti]

So we are just over a week out from this New York City mayoral race, which is looking like a fade accompli at this point. But Zoran held a big sort of culminating rally last night. I know Ryan had a reporter on the ground. Our own Griffin was there in the crowd as well. AOC was there, Bernie was there, and actually Kathy Hochul. And it's kind of interesting. This will get into some of the dynamics. You guys can go ahead and put this slideshow up on the screen while I'm talking. You could see I Mean, massive crowd, people waiting outside. I think people got turned away. It was, you know, really high energy and pretty electric from the folks that. That were there on the ground. You could feel that just from watching the videos as well, looking at the pictures.

[Krystal Ball]

I mean, this is just packed.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yes. And it was a beautiful fall night. And, you know, they got great weather and all of that kind of stuff there. You got. You got Stavros and you got Bernie and Zoron. They're quite a picture. That's quite a moment. Quite a moment in time. I'd love to be privy to that. The boys. Yeah, exactly. But in any case, bringing together Bernie AOC and Kathy Hochul for Zoran is interesting. Cuz Hochul is like a moderate. She's like standard issue Democrat. She's tried to govern as a moderate. She has opposed. So Zoran wants to raise taxes on the rich to fund his proposals, specifically his proposal for free childcare, which is. Of the things that he's proposed, that's the biggest one to be able to pull off in terms of the various programs that he's put forward. And she has said in the past that she was opposed to it. So let's take a listen to this. This is the crowd chanting at Kathy Hochul to tax the rich, and her having to deal with that in real time and respond to it, and almost losing control of the crowd at one moment. Let's go ahead and take a look at that.

[Crystal Ball]

I can hear you.

[Krystal Ball]

You have the power. You have the power. They're everywhere and they're terrorizing innocent people.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Do something. So they're yelling at her there. Do something. When she's talking about, you know, ISIS, abuses of power, et cetera. And I think it's pretty significant shift for this moderate establishment Democrat to feel the heat from the. You know, I shouldn't. I'm not even gonna say the left of the party because this man is the Democratic nominee. He won overwhelmingly. This is just the base of the party that is like, we are gonna hold you to account and we understand where you're falling short and we're gonna yell at you to your face. Even at this rally, at the very end, Zoran came out like a little bit early to, you know, get the crowd sort of back in line and put his arm around her and give her some support because she's there obviously to support him. But the fact that you have these figures all coming together now behind Zoron and him really kind of running the show and putting pressure on the sitting governor to back his policies is quite an extraordinary moment.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah. And I'm beating this dead horse. But it just does remind me so much of the years between like 2010 and 2015, actually, there's almost something Trumpian about it. When Ted Cruz was railing against Donald Trump and then, you know, two months later campaigning with a smile on his face next to Donald Trump, it has that feel to it. Or, you know, when everybody was raging against Sarah Palin and then Sarah Palin was the hottest ticket in the Republican Party, like, that was the best way to get an endorsement circa like 2012 was from Sarah Palin. And so you had all of the establishment figures sort of gritting their teeth and smiling in photo ops with the Sarah Palins or the, like the Ted Cruzes at a certain point. So it has that feel to it. And it just reminds me of that, that poll from over the summer that found Democratic voters satisfaction with their own party is super similar to what Republican voters favorability of their own party was during the Tea Party years. When you hear. Because I think one of the things about that chant is, and this gets to the appeal of Zoran is that. And we'll talk about this later, I think, but he's got, he's always got a smile on his face. He's not a sort of dour socialist. Right. Like, he's a happy populist, which is a hard thing to do. It's not an easy thing to pull off because you're talking about people's immiseration and corruption. And doing it with a smile on the face makes a big difference. But that crowd was really angry. You could kind of hear it in the chant. That crowd was angry at Kathy Hochul. Really, really angry, which is why she sort of had to say, I hear you. It's like when your mom is driving and you're like, I want lunch. Like, give me like, pull over. Like, when are we going to eat? She's like, I hear you. I hear you.

[Saagar Enjeti]

We're getting.

[Krystal Ball]

That was.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Get a little bit further down the road.

[Krystal Ball]

That's what that was.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yeah. Well, and so that's why, first of all, the margin of his victory is going to be closely watched. You know, I think people are looking at, okay, does he get over 50%? Right. Because if he wins over 50%, then there's no cope around. Like, oh, we could have had the, like, the majority position was anti Zoron. And so if we just had a different, better candidate, not Andrew Cuomo maybe would have won. Right. If he gets under 50%, there will be A lot of that cope for sure. The majority of New Yorkers voted against Sauron, so that's number one. Number two, though, I firmly believe his power is only likely to grow because we know a confrontation is coming with Trump and we know New Yorkers are going to hate it, right? They already don't like Trump. They are going to hate the specter. We've already had some of these raids of these massed up military outfitted federal agents in their streets rampaging the sort of scenes we've seen in Chicago. New Yorkers are gonna absolutely revolt. It's a city that really takes its immigrant character seriously and truly has been built on these various waves of immigration. But even just beside that, it's a very proud city. Like, what are you doing infringing on our territory? And I fully expect, based on what I've seen from Zoran thus far, that he's going to meet that moment very effectively. I've yet to see him fail or fumble an important moment in his campaign, whether it's on the debate stage or in important interviews, et cetera. And so I think he's going to end up even more of like he's already kind of this burgeoning rock star in the Democratic Party in our national politics. I think that is probably going to become even more the case. And so I saw Elon Musk tweeted, like, this is the future of the Democratic Party, as if that's a negative thing. And I'm like, yeah, I hope that it is. I think he may be right, that it is. And listen, we should, let's have the contest rather than doing this lame Kathy Hochul, Andrew Cuomo, Joe Biden style of politics. Let's embrace the new young wave of left populism, and unapologetically so, and see how people respond to it. Because thus far what we see is Bernie Sanders is the most popular politician in the country. Zoron is an up and coming rock star in the country. You've got Graham Platter, in spite of all of his things, coming out of nowhere to challenge the sitting governor of Maine. And two out of the three of the polls are to be believed winning that showdown thus far. So maybe this is the new direction of the Democratic Party. And if so, I think it has a lot more promise certainly than the old direction. Emblematic, of course, of that version of the Democratic Party is aoc, who was there last night and gave a barn burner of a speech. Let's take a listen to one of her highlights. City was built by the Irish Escaping famine, Italians fleeing fascism, Jews escaping Holocaust.

[Krystal Ball]

Black Americans fleeing slavery and Jim Crow, Latinos seeking a better life, native people standing for themselves, Asian Americans coming together in Queens, in Brooklyn, in the Bronx.

[Saagar Enjeti]

In Manhattan, in Staten island, in this country. So crowd obviously roaring. And I think this will fit together with the next piece that we're gonna do on Zora and all this like Islamophobic bullshit, calling him a jihadist, et cetera. But what she is laying out there is the pluralistic vision of America, which is direct contrast to the increasingly like blood and soil nationalist vision of America that's being asserted not just by the Trump administration, but increasingly by like right wing influencers who are being quite overt at this point that like white people built this country, it's a country for white people. If you aren't white, you come under suspicion. If you weren't born here or your family hasn't been here for multi generations, we can denaturalize you. You aren't a true American. Really rewriting the conception of how people have thought about America for a number of years at this point, and a theme of how people have thought about America from the beginning. Not that there's always been complete alignment in that view, but. So what AOC is laying out there, I think is a very important contrast in a vision for what the country is and what it means vis a vis the vision that's being asserted and trying to be made real reality by this administration right now.

[Krystal Ball]

For Democrats and Democratic socialists, there's quite a lesson to be taken from what happened during Trump 1.0 and then Biden, because backlash in polling to Trump's immigration policies inspired a fairly dramatic, what's the right word? Like liberalization of the Democratic Party's immigration policies. And this is where like, Zoron's really going to have to sell, because in New York City, there was a lot of backlash to the Biden immigration policies, which is why Eric Adams sort of changed his own tune on it. And the asylum policies, all of that, like the hotels, this was, you know, there was significant backlash in New York City. And so that means if Zoron wants to, he's been talking about how he wants to make New York or wants to keep New York as like a sort of prominent sanctuary city, as a great sanctuary city. I think that is a, you know, obviously I have deep political disagreements with that, but I really think that's going to be kind of interesting to watch because he's a great political salesman. And if that's, I mean, if that's what Zuramdani and AOC want. They do have to sort of come up with a different way to sell it because what happened before didn't work.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Well, Trump is making that sales pitch for the market. That's absolutely true because, I mean, people see Chicago, also a sanctuary city, and you see the scenes coming out of there of people just being harassed or even assaulted just because of the shade of their skin, based on absolutely no evidence that they're here illegally, let alone that they've committed any sort of crime. Obviously, the apartment raid, pulling all sorts of American citizens out on the street in their underwear in the middle of the night and arresting them, zip tying their kids, throwing U Haul vans, all of these abuses are playing out. And I fully expect Trump to move on New York in the same fashion. So I think Trump is making the pitch for them of like, okay, so there was dissatisfaction over the immigrants were bussed in, by and large by Texas Governor Greg Abbott. And that creates this friction in the city of okay, well, what do we do? This influx of people and how do we handle them and how do we integrate them into the city? And many of them don't have work permits, so they're sort of inherently dependent on the government to provide for them, et cetera. So you had that. But then when you see the cost of this insane militarized crackdown, I think certainly the New York City public is already going to be on board for sanctuary policy. We already see a backlash against the raids that they've done in the city thus far. The actions that the court, courthouse downtown, where they're just immigrants who are coming in or like doing the thing and going to the court dates like they're supposed to, are then getting swept up and detained, assaulted at times, et cetera. So, you know, I think that that sort of sales pitch has already happened in, in an important sense. We can put E4 up on the screen. We do have some early voting results just in terms of the boroughs that are surging. So. So top line here is Brooklyn. People living in Brooklyn are voting their asses off. And that is Zoron's best borough laid off.

[Krystal Ball]

Vice employees are coming in strong.

[Saagar Enjeti]

They are coming in strong. And then the second best borough for Zoran, judging by the primary, is Queens. And Queens is also voting at extraordinary levels. Next next is Manhattan, then Staten island, then the Bronx are the two lowest performing boroughs, and those are also Zoron's two lowest performing boroughs. So who knows, maybe this is just the Sliwa surge, could be, but it's looking like this turnout seems to indicate that Zoran is cleaning up. And it would not surprise me if he outperforms the polls again. Cuz he did during the primary. He outperformed the polls by like, I don't know, 12 points, at least 12 to 15 points in the primary because he changed the electorate. And so it would not, it would not be a shock if there was another polling underperformance because he is a politician that brings out a different electorate than pollsters are really able to capture very Trump like in that way where, you know, it's race, it's predominantly young people. Right. Who normally pollsters discount feel like, okay, they don't turn out that much. And this is a general election in a New York City mayor's race where typically the general election is a foregone conclusion and yet there's all this energy and interest around it. So that creates a totally different political landscape. So I would not be shocked at all if Zorin already the polls show him winning by anywhere from like 10 to 20 points. I would not be shocked at all if he outperforms the average of the polls right now too.

[Krystal Ball]

So I'm looking at this poll that producer Griffin flagged over the weekend because it's just so funny, so rich, that Mamdani vs. Sliwa is more competitive for Sliwa than Mamdani vs. Cuomo. Like Sliwa head to head with Sora. Mamdani is doing better than Cuomo. Head to head with Sara Mandani.

[Saagar Enjeti]

I think it's by like one point, but it's still amazing.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah, yeah, right, because it's two points. Yeah.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Think of how contrary that is to all of the standard issue political logic that like, Cuomo's the guy. It has to be Cuomo. Cuomo versus Zoran. Cuomo could win. It's like actually all along, you know, first of all, do you not understand how hated this guy is? Do you not understand how incredibly lame he is? And lazy, by the way, and what a bad campaign he's running? And you still think like he's the guy where you want to send all of your millions and put all of your hopes into.

[Crystal Ball]

Yep.

[Krystal Ball]

And he's at. So that poll actually had 8.5% of the electorate undecided, which is. That's a pretty significant chunk of the electorate, if that poll is correct. Now, again, to Crystal's point, polling in New York City races can be really difficult. So we'll see where it ends up going. But that is for, for Cuomo, I mean, the primary should have been enough to embarrass him out of politics, out of public life, truly, because of the situation that he put Democrats in by running and trying to consolidate all of the money and then losing to a 33 year old Democratic socialist state senator. And yet he persisted. Nevertheless. Nevertheless, he persisted.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Indeed. I turned off news altogether. I hate to say it, but I.

[Krystal Ball]

Don'T trust much of anything.

[Crystal Ball]

It's the rage bait.

[Saagar Enjeti]

It feels like it's trying to divide people.

[Krystal Ball]

We got clear facts. Maybe we could calm down a little.

[Crystal Ball]

NBC News brings you clear reporting.

[Krystal Ball]

Let's meet at the Facts. Let's move forward from there.

[Crystal Ball]

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[Saagar Enjeti]

There'S been a subplot. I don't know if it's a subplot or a 4 plot anyway playing out in this race as well though, because Zoran has been really, throughout the campaign attacked an extremely racist way just because of him being Muslim. Cuomo was on this radio show and the radio host said something like, oh my God, can you imagine if Zoran had been mayor during 9 11? And then the host was like, oh, he would have been cheering and Cuomo just chuckles along with this, right? Disgusting stuff. Zorin actually was in New York City on 9 11. He was a kid and he was horrified by it, as everyone was. Sliwa said something like, oh, we can't allow New York City to become Europe. So this really, this is their final push. Like everything they've thrown at Zoran has completely failed. All of the supposed scandals they tried to dig up have been complete nothing. Burgers. The latest I saw, like someone was posting, oh my God, he had sushi at a nice restaurant with his wife. Can you believe the socialist, like eats nice sushi? The other one that I just saw was some report, New York Times or something like this, reporting on when he ran for school president and promised juice and wasn't able to fulfill his promises.

[Krystal Ball]

Like, this is messed up.

[Saagar Enjeti]

This is what they've got on this guy shouldn't have did that. So they just decided to go to complete naked Islamophobia and racism in the final phase. And Sauron, who has tried to really keep his as a democratic socialist, tried to keep his program incredibly universalist, felt the need like, okay, I gotta stand up for myself. I've gotta stand up for Muslims in the city. And so he gave a speech talking about these attacks and what they mean and like I said, trying to speak up for Muslims in the city. Let's go ahead and take a listen to a bit of that.

[Crystal Ball]

Yesterday, Andrew Cuomo laughed and agreed when a radio host said that I would cheer another 9 11. Yesterday, Eric Adams said that we can't let our city become Europe. He compared me to violent extremists and he lied again and again when he said that our movement seeks to burn churches and destroy communities. The day before that, Curtis Sliwa slandered me from the debate stage when he claimed that I support global jihad. And every day SuperPAC ads imply that I am a terrorist or mock the way I eat. Push polls that ask New Yorkers questions like whether they support invented proposals to make halal food mandatory or Political cartoons that represent my candidacy as an airplane hurtling towards the World Trade Center. But I do not want to use this moment to speak to them any further. I want to use this moment to speak to the Muslims of New York City. I want to speak to the memory of my aunt who stopped taking the subway after September 11th because she did not feel safe in her hijab. I want to speak to the Muslim who works for our city, whether they teach in our schools or walk the beat for the nypd. New Yorkers who all make daily sacrifices for the city they call home, only to see their leader spit in their face.

[Saagar Enjeti]

So you can see Emily, him being very emotional there. What did you think of his decision to address this at the end of the race, which I think entails some. Some risks. You know, I mean, up to this point, his approach had been, I'm just gonna kind of, like, ignore that this is happening, stay above the fray. Like you said before, he tries to keep his campaign, like, relentlessly positive. You know, always. Always smiling, always putting forward, like, a positive vision for the future, even as he has come under, you know, incredibly ugly attacks. I remember the Cuomo people in the primary, too. They're putting out these mailers where they, like, lengthened his beard and darkened his skin again to try to make him look like some scary jihadist.

[Krystal Ball]

We do that with Sagar, by the way, in all of our promotional graphics, just.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Just to help me to win the debates with him. Yes, just give me that little bit of an edge. But you had that. And this is not just coming from Republicans, by the way. This is Cuomo, who's allegedly a dumber. Kirsten Gillibrand calling him a jihadist birthers.

[Krystal Ball]

Originally came from the Clinton campaign, so.

[Saagar Enjeti]

It'S been bipartisan ugliness. And there's also. I mean, not that anyone cares about, like, philosophical consistency, but on the one hand, they're like, he's so far left in the queer liberation, and here's the leadership I know. And on the other hand, he's, like, ushering in Sharia law. So which is it, guys? Come on. Which is it?

[Krystal Ball]

This is the. And actually from someone who is, like, very skeptical about political Islam, my argument to Elise Stefanik rocking around, calling him a jihadist is that you are, like, politically, that is insane. What you are doing is softening it so that if you actually had somebody who was, like, a Sharia follower who ran for office, that has no meaning anymore. Just like all of the other terms that were leveled at people like Elise Stefanik and she argued against it, lost so much of their meaning because they were just being tossed around to people who you thought like her. Let's say her argument against Zoram Hamdani would be he is going to give aid and comfort to jihadists. That is different than him being a jihadist. Even if you believe that argument, which I don't believe that argument, though we probably would disagree on his imam photo op and all of that. But, like, you are completely. You're completely making that term meaningless if you are calling Zorramdani, who's marching in the pride parades, a jihadist. Stop it. That is so stupid. And it is so counterproductive on the political level with that speech. I thought it was really interesting because one thing that he's careful to do is always be a glass half full guy. Yeah, I don't blame anyone, especially people, you know, like, even. Even women who run for office. Like, I don't blame anyone for seeing the world as glass half full after going through that experience or glass half empty. I'm sorry, when you're in the middle of an experience like that. But politically, it's one of his benefits that he actually gives New Yorkers a ton of credit. And he always sees New York as glass half full. And so I think the implication of that speech was truly. I forget I should have pulled out one of the lines in particular, but truly, that New York is a place where people experience deep, widespread Islamophobia, and that isn't to discredit Islamophobia that people actually experience in New York. But I think he has been careful. This is just the political strategy of it, to give New Yorkers a lot of credit, to give Americans a lot of credit, and to always be like, sunny and optimistic. So I don't blame anyone for not being sunny and optimistic politically. I thought that was just a. It was a different approach from him.

[Saagar Enjeti]

I mean, can you blame him when Randy Fine, member of Congress, is right now attempting to denaturalize him?

[Krystal Ball]

No, no.

[Saagar Enjeti]

You know, I mean, that's.

[Krystal Ball]

Of course not.

[Saagar Enjeti]

And that's where he's being called a jihadist. Exactly. And that's the thing is, like, there has been an upsurge in Islamophobia in a truly, again, bipartisan way post October 7th that has resulted in now, I mean, I see Betty Hassan all day long getting told, like, we're going to denaturalize you. Will Chamberlain and all these characters and Matt Walsh, like, going to war with him, and we're going to denaturalize you. And you're not a real American and we want you out of our country, blah, blah, blah. This is just commonplace discourse, mainstream discourse. Now that happens to be coming from the right. But as I said, you have plenty of Democrats who have indulged in this as well because they can't defend Israel anymore. So instead they have to smear and dehumanize Muslims in particular, and Arab Muslims specifically, but Muslims in particular. And so this is the reality of America that we live in. And so I think it makes sense for him to address that directly because I think that he's probably speaking to a lot of people in the way that they feel their grasp on being considered real Americans and a full part of the fabric of society kind of slipping away from them and that. And even Democrats who in the past have defended them are sort of allowing that to occur. Speaking of which, we have Bill Maher, who is taking a similar attack on his show, attacking Zoran for being a citizen of Uganda and weirdly blaming Zoran for the policies that are in place in Uganda, as if he has any power, control over that or supports those policies. Let's go ahead and take a listen to E7.

[Crystal Ball]

The issue now that Andrew Cuomo is bringing up in New York is that he is a Ugandan citizen. Uganda's a country where they kill homosexuals.

[Saagar Enjeti]

So somebody who is a dual citizen.

[Krystal Ball]

Can'T be mayor of New York.

[Crystal Ball]

Or I would renounce, if I was the dual citizen with a country whose policy, government policy was we kill homosexuals. Yeah, I would renounce that citizenship. I don't.

[Saagar Enjeti]

And to not.

[Crystal Ball]

And, and he also.

[Saagar Enjeti]

I think that is buying into a fear. I think that is buying into a fear framework that is not fear of killing homosexuals. It's not good for the country. It's not good for the country. You shouldn't be afraid of that Cuomo. I think the way that Cuomo is closing out this race and really. And really race baiting and really leaning in on her and something.

[Crystal Ball]

You know what?

[Krystal Ball]

Just because I don't think that's good for the country.

[Crystal Ball]

I understand. But just because something is done by people in Africa doesn't mean it's always okay.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Now, I am going to guess, Emily, that Bill Maher has not had any problem with the Israeli dual citizens in the country or indicated that, you know, their continued Israeli citizenship would indicate that they, you know, for sure support a genocide, et cetera.

[Krystal Ball]

Yes. But Crystal, Israel has the greatest pride parade. Have you heard about the Tel Aviv pride parade?

[Saagar Enjeti]

Many times, actually. Weirdly, a lot. I've heard about the Tel Aviv Pride parade.

[Krystal Ball]

Have you heard about the Ugandan pride parade? Probably not. So now you can see Bill Maher's logic.

[Saagar Enjeti]

You're giving me something to chew on. Yes.

[Krystal Ball]

Something to think about. Something to think about when I'm siding with Kate Bedingfield in an exchange. Something's gone wrong.

[Saagar Enjeti]

We've gone off the rails here. All right, well, we promised kjp, so let's get to kjp.

[Krystal Ball]

Let's do it.

[Saagar Enjeti]

I turned off news altogether. I hate to say it, but I.

[Krystal Ball]

Don'T trust much of anything.

[Crystal Ball]

It's the rage bait.

[Saagar Enjeti]

It feels like it's trying to divide people.

[Krystal Ball]

We got clear facts. Maybe we can calm down a little.

[Crystal Ball]

NBC News brings you clear reporting.

[Krystal Ball]

Let's meet at the facts. Let's move forward from there.

[Crystal Ball]

NBC News reporting for America. Make their holiday unforgettable with a gift that says it all from Pandora Jewelry. A gift that tells a story and shows you know theirs that doesn't just sparkle but speaks. From new festive charms to forever rings and personal engravings, this season give a gift that's perfectly theirs. Whether you're shopping for a shiny surprise for your significant other, matching bracelets to celebrate your friendship, or a heartfelt gift for a family member, say more this holiday season with Pandora. I always look forward to the holidays because I live to give all the women in my life jewelry with a little something special engraved on it just to show them I care with something personalized. You know, I love to get some gifts myself and a man wearing jewelry is quite cool if you ask me. Shop [e-mail] or visit your closest Pandora store.

[Sponsor/Advertiser Voice]

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[Krystal Ball]

Well, as Karine Jean Pierre continues her book tour, which has been a wild ride already, she stopped by MSNBC and got pressed. Specifically, this has been a long time coming. In the last week of her book tour, she really had not faced this level of questioning over the Biden administration's policy on Israel and Gaza. She got pressed by Eamonn Moyledine on it this weekend. Let's take a look.

[Crystal Ball]

You stood at the White House podium speaking on behalf of the administration. You defended US Policy in Gaza at a time where there were mass civilian casualties, journalists being killed, whole families being wiped out, hospitals being bombed. And the international community was calling it what it was at the time, saying it was a violation, it was war crimes. And you defended the administration's policy. When you look back at that moment, do you regret any of the positions that you advocated for on behalf of the administrations, the positions you take? Do you feel that you were complicit in advocating a narrative that turned out to be wrong?

[Krystal Ball]

No. I appreciate the question because one thing that I really want to make clear is that I was speaking on behalf of the President. That is the job of the White House press Secretary. I'm not speaking for Karine Jean Pierre. I was speaking for Joe Biden. That's every White House press secretary, that is their job.

[Crystal Ball]

Well, you said now you speak for yourself, so.

[Krystal Ball]

Wait, let me finish.

[Crystal Ball]

No, no, I know.

[Krystal Ball]

I just wanted.

[Crystal Ball]

Because we're almost out of time. I just want to go ahead.

[Krystal Ball]

I'm going to get to it. Obviously, what's happening is heartbreaking.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Heartbreaking.

[Krystal Ball]

And to not say that and not to be clear about the devastation and the killings that we're seeing of families is just heartbreaking. And my I would say is that is not the way I believe people wanted it to turn out. But I didn't make policy. The President is going to write his book. He will speak to his policy. I'm going to let his foreign policy team speak to that. But it is heartbreaking and I'm hoping that the ceasefire holds. We need to get to a peaceful situation in the Middle east, to its peace agreement. And I know that's going to take a lot of hard work. But of course that's not what I want to see. I mean, nailed it, stuck the landing. 10 out of 10 couldn't have been Couldn't have gone better for her. Everyone's buying the book now.

[Saagar Enjeti]

And Eamonn followed back up and said, okay, I get it. You were speaking for the president. Now you're speaking for yourself. And still deflection, along with some way of working in her trailblazing identity into all of this as well. And I don't know the book, her as a person, all of it is tailor made to drive me insane because I knew her a little bit when I was at MSNBC and she came out of the move on activist world and I'm just like, how does this happen? And the answer actually is contained in the book. The answer is she doesn't care about policy or like anything. Apparently she left the Democratic Party because. Not because of any of the obvious reasons why one might.

[Krystal Ball]

Yes.

[Saagar Enjeti]

But because she felt they treated Joe Biden poorly.

[Krystal Ball]

The Democratic Party was insufficiently pro Biden, even though it clung until the bitter end, until he glitched in a debate.

[Saagar Enjeti]

So now she's framing herself as a quote, unquote independent who's left the Democratic Party because it was too insufficiently loyal to this doddering, narcissistic old man who's facilitating a genocide. And then the other thing that she's pissed about in the book apparently is that they weren't sufficiently deferential to Kamala Harris. Again, not based on any, like, merit, anything that Kamala Harris had really done or achieved, but just the fact that she was also a historic identity, like, higher.

[Krystal Ball]

Yes.

[Saagar Enjeti]

And had happened to be next in line. Like, so those are the things that she was mad about. And it's like, I don't know, it's such, to me, a perfect encapsulation of this particular mode of girl boss and boy boss politics.

[Krystal Ball]

Yes.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Where it's about your own personal, like, ambition and fulfillment. And the voters are there as a vehicle for, like, the, you know, the grandeur of Kamala Harris or of Hillary Clinton or of Joe Biden or of Karine Jean Pierre. That's what she thought the party was supposed to be. And that when the voters didn't obediently fall in line and when there were other factions by the way of Democratic elites as well, who were like, we are going to lose to Donald Trump with this man. We have to do something. She found that was what she found so offensive she could no longer be part of this party.

[Krystal Ball]

Well, and Crystal, you teased this masterful Washington Post book review of Independent. Top of the show. But let's get to it. We can put it up on the screen because What Crystal was just saying is actually encapsulated itself in this line from the review, which we should credit the author Becca Rothfeld for writing. She says Jean Pierre is an artifact of an age that looks recent on paper but feels prehistoric in practice. The age of pantsuits, the word empowerment, the musical Hamilton, the cheap therapeutic entreaties to work on yourself and lean into various corporate abysses. Independent is written in the outmoded register of one of those lawn signs proclaiming that in this house we believe kindness is everything, which had been firmly planted to no tangible electoral effect since 2016. And what I think is what stands out from that observation, Crystal, is you mentioned KJP doesn't particularly care about policy, and that's astute. Cuz it seems like what she cares about is identity. And it seems like the best sort of takeaway, or one of the better takeaways from that era is how everything else was subjugated to identity in democratic politics. And when you subjugate everything else to identity, I think actually it's why when you and Sagar were hosting Rising originally, it took off. I think it's why Breaking Points took off is because it was saying that's shallow. There are serious material concerns, spiritual concerns downstream of that, and all you care about is identity. You've seen it over and over again in Karine Jean Pierre's interview. She's tried to kind of block and tackle by saying I am a black queer woman. And that falls completely flat now in a way that it wouldn't have in 2019.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Progress.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah, yeah.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Let's put the next piece up on the screen. This other quote from this article, really, you gotta read the whole review because every word is delicious. But it's a little too long to read all of it on air. But let me just read this part. Imagine parting ways with the Democratic Party. Not because of its unwavering support of Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu as he violated international law and waged a bloody campaign against civilians in Gaza. Not because of its humiliating failure to mount meaningful opposition, the Trump administration's assault on just about everything of value in the country. Not because it continues to run candidates in their 70s and 80s, one of whom opted to to die in office at 90 rather than cede her seat to someone younger, Diane Foster. Yeah. Not because of its inability to expand access to health care or protect immigrants or tax wealthy or really get anything done at all. Not because of its politely non committal affect and rhetoric of facile uplift, or its members tendency to address the public as if they're delivering the keynote at a corporate retreat. Not because the Democrats have no political vision, something of a liability for a political party, but rather because of the single sensible, if very belated thing they have done in recent memory which was to usher a doddering Joe Biden out of the 2024 presidential race. So she left the Democratic Party not because of its many failings, but because of the one halfway intelligent thing, halfway moral thing that they did in the past little stretch. That's the thing that was the straw that broke the camel back. Camel's back for her. So I mean it sounds like it is just a platitude laden like vacuous black hole of thought based on this review and others that I've seen too commenting who actually read the whole thing. I'm sorry guys, I'm not going to subject myself to that. But it really is, I guess it's heartening in a sense that yeah these arguments from her at this point that we should have just backed Kamala Harris because she was next in line and there shouldn't have been. It's good that voters didn't have any process and how dare you even think that maybe there should have been voter input to this and you know, and that all of her facilitating and running cover for a genocide should be forgiven because she was just speaking for the president. Oh by the way, did you know I'm a queer black woman? I mean all of this does such a disservice to to the many extraordinary and accomplished and morally courageous black women and people of color that are out there like for you to claim the mantle like you represent all of them when you were both a failure at the skill level, which is why John Kirby had to be brought in constantly to bad at her job to save your ass.

[Krystal Ball]

Yes.

[Saagar Enjeti]

And a failure most importantly on a moral level and continue to be a failure on the moral level even now when you're not, when you're detached from the administration can speak plainly about what you actually think about these things like how dare you hold yourself out as some beacon of any identity group when you have failed in such key and critical regards at a really critical moment for the country.

[Krystal Ball]

And this is the problem with subjugating content to identity and subjugating substance to identity is that you end up actually undercutting the work that people who have those identities actually are contributing. And it was the same problem with Kamala Harris and the Biden administration couldn't. They were so attached to these identity politics that when it was obvious. Kamala Harris was not the best candidate that Democrats could have run when it was obvious Karine Jean Pierre, who had been much touted for her identity politics being the first lesbian in the role, and I think the first black woman in the role, they had touted that so much that when John Kirby was clearly the better candidate to replace her, they couldn't, because they would be then boxing themselves into the corner based on their own arguments of replacing a black queer woman with a straight white man. And you can't do that, even if it's better for Democrats, even if it's better for the party, that you have somebody who can competently make the message of the party or sell the message of the party to the public. Couldn't do it.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yeah. And also, let's be clear. I mean, he's morally disgusting and abhorrent.

[Krystal Ball]

But he was at least a better pitch man.

[Saagar Enjeti]

But if you're just talking about technical skill.

[Krystal Ball]

Yes, technical skill.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yeah.

[Krystal Ball]

Better pitch man.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yeah. And that's what it really comes down to is like, okay, let's not ask the question the identity characteristics of the person in power. Let's ask the question of what that person is doing for the various groups that we care about and for the country as a whole. And so that's why it ties in so closely with the politics of personal ambition, where everything is about the fulfillment of this powerful person's dream for their life. And how dare you get in the way of whatever like achievement, ambitious achievement they wanted to claim for themselves. And if they don't make it, it's because the voters didn't understand their greatness, not because they had any failings.

[Krystal Ball]

No, it's so true. Weigel highlighted. He read it so that we don't have to. Dave Weigel of Semaphore. He says the knock on KJP was that she was a lightweight who had to be layered by John Kirby. And her response is. He posted this excerpt from the book. Alicia Keys, the singer and Broadway producer, said, DEI is not a threat, it's a gift. Shakira, the Latin American superstar, dedicated her award to her immigrant brothers and sisters, saying they didn't stand alone. Doetje, a brilliant up and coming artist who won best rap album, told all the black women singing on the Grammy stage that they should take that as evidence that anything is possible. Pop superstar and actress Lady Gaga, who won the award for best pop duo or group for a song she performed with Bruno Mars. Why she needed to mention that, I don't know. Gave a shout out to the trans and queer communities during her acceptance remarks. That's her argument.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Okay, well, case closed.

[Krystal Ball]

What the hell? Again, this is somebody whose job was to be a persuasive messenger falling back on someone who won the award for best pop duo or group for a song she performed with Bruno Mars. Lest you mistake Lady Gaga for somebody who did not win best pop duo or group for a song she performed with Bruno Mars.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Right. Gotta get that in. Gotta make sure that point's made.

[Krystal Ball]

What the hell?

[Saagar Enjeti]

What a mess.

[Krystal Ball]

Dems are cooked.

[Saagar Enjeti]

What a mess.

[Krystal Ball]

We're all cooked.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Well, actually, I mean, like I said, it's kind of heartening that, like you said, this will just fall and totally it's being rejected.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah. I mean, the fact that the Washington Post published this review is pretty remarkable. Yeah, I mean, it's Washington Post now, but.

[Saagar Enjeti]

And I saw her, you know, Joy Reid, who used to work at MSNBC and I think was pretty close with. With kjp. She was pressing her on these same things with regard to Gaza, and the response was, like, exactly the same. And Joy, you know, Joy has some cred there because she very good case that she lost her job because of how forcefully she advocated for Gaza. And so, you know, when she was faced with the decision of, like, okay, my career, my principles, she chose the principles. So, you know, I think to see her pressing Karine Jean Pierre in that moment was also particularly, like, noteworthy and powerful to see.

[Krystal Ball]

It's insane to try to have anyone believe or that Karine Jean Pierre thinks anybody believes that. She genuinely thinks Joe Biden was okay for a second term. Like, that is a crazy thing to ask people to believe. That's insane.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yeah.

[Krystal Ball]

And yet she's. That's the predicate for her book.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Like, okay. And let's just say she's just this total cynical political actor, cares only about her ambitions.

[Crystal Ball]

Yep.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Like, how much are you misreading the room right now? Who is this for?

[Krystal Ball]

I know, right? Like, the idea of writing a book called Independent is so smart, but, man, did she get it wrong.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Right?

[Crystal Ball]

Yeah.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Like, do the Lindy Lee, you know, you can be the next pbd. Like her take.

[Krystal Ball]

That's so funny. Co host.

[Saagar Enjeti]

I think they're still in the market for someone new. You know, you can just. You can go, I was in there all the time saying, this is wrong. We can't do this. You know? Do you have any proof of that? No, but I promise you, I was there. And it's a crime what the Democrats did to the public. Like, if you're just looking for how to get attention and further your career. The right will take you. Like if you're willing to go out there and say you turn on the Democrats and you're gonna spill their tea and, you know, air the dirty laundry, they will take you all day long. That lane is wide open for you. This thing you're doing is like a non existent lane that I don't think ever existed but certainly expired somewhere around like 2014.

[Krystal Ball]

Scone.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yeah. Indeed.

[Krystal Ball]

There we go.

[Saagar Enjeti]

All right, Emily, thank you. Enjoyable as always.

[Krystal Ball]

My pleasure.

[Saagar Enjeti]

We got through all of it somehow. Yeah, well, we were kind of deter. We were determined.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah, I really wanted to get to that. So Sagar was at the New Yorker Festival, right? Yes. So that's why I'm here. But Sager will be back tomorrow.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yep. Yeah, he did a panel actually with Hasan Piker, which I want to know how that went.

[Krystal Ball]

Awesome.

[Saagar Enjeti]

I've not heard the feedback yet, so.

[Krystal Ball]

And they managed not to get deported. So big dub for both of those guys. Yes.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Neither of whom are heritage Americans in the the lingo of the right.

[Krystal Ball]

Not a heritage American in sight on that New Yorker panel. Now, Sager and Ryan also have a huge scoop over at Dropsite about the administration's Venezuela war. We have to call it that at this point. So when Sagar's back tomorrow, I expect you guys are going to be.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Oh, yeah, we'll be going in on that. There's some new developments as well. And yeah, huge story. Not getting nearly enough attention. And like it looks like, I mean, it looks like it's happening. They're saying Maduro is either going to be toppled, like have to flee, killed. I mean there's. Yeah, it's, I mean, the regime change, like it seems like they have decided regime change is happening. It just is. Now a question of what that entails. Exactly.

[Krystal Ball]

And you know what, Crystal? I think maybe on the Friday show, one thing that would be good is to even if Sagar's there, but even if he's not, have Ryan talk a little bit about the background of that story in the premium half for premium subs. So breakingpoints.com if you want to see the second half of those Friday shows because, yeah, we get the little background story on Ryan's amazing journalism and soccer's amazing journalism too. So check that story out at drop site and tune in tomorrow to hear more.

[Saagar Enjeti]

All right, guys, have a great day. I will see you tomorrow.

[Crystal Ball]

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[Krystal Ball]

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[Crystal Ball]

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[Saagar Enjeti]

New homes, new babies, Waking them up when they look so comfy.

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[Krystal Ball]

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[Saagar Enjeti]

There's hills.

[Crystal Ball]

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[Krystal Ball]

This is an iHeart podcast.