10/7/25: Trump Floats Ghislaine Pardon, Tim Dillon Flames Troops In Chicago, DHS Shoots American

Summary

Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar – Episode Summary

Date: October 7, 2025
Episode Title: Trump Floats Ghislaine Pardon, Tim Dillon Flames Troops In Chicago, DHS Shoots American
Hosts: Krystal Ball, Saagar Enjeti
Podcast: Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar (iHeartPodcasts)

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Overview

In this episode, Krystal Ball and Saagar Enjeti dive into several major stories at the intersection of politics, law enforcement, and civil liberties in America:

• The evolving Jeffrey Epstein/Ghislaine Maxwell case and speculation around a Trump pardon
• Growing controversies over National Guard and ICE deployments in U.S. cities, especially Chicago
• A breakdown of a recent incident where a DHS agent shot an American woman in Chicago, raising questions about government transparency and police violence
• Broader reflections on institutional trust, protest movements, and political maneuvering

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Main Discussion Points & Insights

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1. Epstein Files, Ghislaine Maxwell, and the House Shutdown

(02:00 – 05:51)

Key Themes:

• The U.S. government is shut down, and the House has delayed swearing in a new member. Saagar and Krystal argue this is a maneuver to hold back a vote on releasing the Epstein files.
• Supreme Court rejected Ghislaine Maxwell’s appeal to overturn her conviction. Her last hope: a pardon from Trump.
• Trump, when asked directly about pardoning Maxwell, equivocated, saying he “would have to take a look at it.”

Notable Quote:

“Why don't you just rule it out?...It's so weird. Just like the old days.”
– Krystal Ball, (05:15)

Analysis:

• Krystal speculates Trump keeps the pardon possibility open to maintain leverage and avoid potential damaging revelations.
• Saagar points out the drip-feed nature of the Epstein story serves to satisfy curiosity without real accountability, as both parties seem uninterested in forcing disclosure.

Political Context:

• A new Arizona House member’s swearing-in is delayed, ostensibly to stall the Epstein files vote. Despite an uncontested majority, Saagar criticizes both parties for playing along with the coverup.
• The conversation broadens to discuss missed opportunities for real transparency and bipartisan reluctance for real reform.

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2. Healthcare Politics and the Government Shutdown

(09:32 – 12:15)

Key Themes:

• Trump hints at possibly striking a deal with Democrats on healthcare, particularly in the context of skyrocketing ACA/Obamacare premiums.
• Saagar critiques both Republican and Democratic handling of healthcare, highlighting the political peril of raising premiums in red states.

Notable Quote:

“If you increase price directly attributable to legislation, you are an idiot politically.”
– Saagar Enjeti, (10:00)

Insight:

• The hosts point out, with data from Kaiser Family Foundation, that most who’d be hurt by premium increases live in Trump-voting states – a political blind spot for Republicans.

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3. Tim Dillon on Trump, Chicago, and National Guard Deployments

(15:56 – 18:20)

Key Themes:

• Tim Dillon lampoons the administration’s priorities: money for foreign aid, but military force against American cities, suggesting the absurdity of using Marines as law enforcers in Chicago.

Notable Quote:

"Let me get this straight...The money to build the educational institutions and the infrastructure in America...gets shipped to Israel. The Marines and the National Guard get sent into the cities where that money could have been used to better the lives of the people. That seems to make no sense."
– Tim Dillon, (16:04)

Host Reactions:

• Krystal praises Dillon’s messaging; Saagar connects it to longstanding left-right critiques of foreign aid versus domestic investment.

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4. Red State National Guards in Blue Cities: Legal and Political Chaos

(18:20 – 28:50)

Key Themes:

• The Trump administration’s efforts to federalize National Guard units from red states (like Texas) for policing duties in blue cities (Chicago, Portland) is escalating, with legal pushback from Democratic governors and civil libertarians.

Notable Quotes:

• "Sending in Red State National Guard to Blue C seems to me like an absolutely insane move." – Krystal Ball, (19:41)

Policy Issues:

• Legal ambiguity: The Posse Comitatus Act usually bars the military from domestic law enforcement, but the administration is pushing the boundary, citing “protection of federal property.”
• Krystal and Saagar dissect the blurred line between crowd control and law enforcement, warning about the permanent normalization of military force in domestic affairs.
• Krystal on speech suppression: Recent crackdowns and shows of force have chilled protest movements, especially pro-Palestine activism, despite technical legality.

Notable Quote:

"They want to chill the ability to speak freely. And there's some evidence that this has been successful."
– Krystal Ball, (24:57)

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5. ICE/CBP Violence, Community Backlash, and Civil Disobedience

(29:32 – 39:20 and 48:22 – 55:24)

Incident:

• A DHS (ICE/CBP) agent shoots an American woman, Maramar Martinez, in Chicago after a traffic incident near an anti-ICE protest. Initial government statements lacked credibility and have unraveled under scrutiny.

Monologue Breakdown:
(48:22 – 55:24)
Krystal lays out:

• DHS’s initial statement described a wild, threatening scenario (agents “boxed in” by vehicles, suspect armed, self-defense shooting), which was quickly contradicted by multiple sources:
  • No evidence of a weapon on Martinez.
  • Fewer cars involved than claimed.
  • Martinez reportedly shot after being rammed, not the reverse.
  • Government claims of “head-on ramming” and “self-defense” undercut by bodycam footage and witness accounts.
  • Bodycam allegedly captures the agent saying "Do something, bitch" before firing.

Notable Quotes:

• “What has become quite clear is that the government initially lied about some really key details and now her lawyer is claiming that bodycam footage undercuts their story entirely.”
  – Krystal Ball, (48:36)

• “The body cam footage was said to directly contradict the government's claim that Martinez was driving towards officers when they fired at her in self defense.”
  – Krystal Ball, (49:44)

Broader Analysis:

• The segment raises alarm about the expansion of “zones of lawlessness” enabled by executive power and legal ambiguity.
• Saagar highlights the still-working parts of the system: a judge refused federal requests to detain both Martinez and Ruiz pretrial, possibly signaling judicial skepticism about the federal narrative.

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6. Federalism, the Supremacy Clause, and Civilian Resistance

(29:32 – 41:09)

Debate:

• Saagar is concerned about cities and states refusing to cooperate with federal immigration enforcement, calling it a “neo-Confederate idea.”
• Krystal insists the refusal is about not dedicating local law enforcement to aid federal agencies they see as acting unlawfully or abusively (e.g., ICE), not about seceding from legal obligations.

Notable Exchange:

• “Do you not think it's a little bit crazy that municipalities get to just declare we will not be compliant with federal law?”
  – Saagar Enjeti, (32:15)
• “They're not saying they won't be compliant with federal law. What they're saying is ... we can't stop you. But that doesn't mean we have to devote our law enforcement resources to whatever dumb shit you want to do.”
  – Krystal Ball, (32:24)

Analysis:

• The discussion underscores deepening constitutional gray zones and existential anger at law enforcement’s lack of accountability, met with fears about the risk of disorder if civilians confront federal officers en masse.

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7. Violence, Protest, and Systemic Stress Tests

(39:12 – 43:24)

Themes:

• Saagar cautions against mob interference with law enforcement, fearing a “permission structure” for violence like what unfolded after the George Floyd killing.
• Krystal points to institutional double standards, with executive encroachment on lawful limits being the bigger risk long-term.
• Both agree that trust in core institutions is eroding, but that parts of the system (e.g., lower courts) still function and offer hope.

Notable Quotes:

“The zone of lawlessness that the President has claimed continues to expand and expand and expand. So does that mean that everything is like totalitarian? ... No. Of course there are parts of society that still function. But we should be deeply concerned.”
– Krystal Ball, (41:41)

“My greatest fear—and I do think the government is complicit—is to see some sort of spiral ... because you can’t trust the government right now with the way that they’ve handled the situation.”
– Saagar Enjeti, (43:24)

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Memorable Moments & Quotes

• Krystal on Trump’s Ghislaine Maxwell ambiguity: “Why don't you just rule it out?...It's so weird. Just like the old days.” (05:15)
• Tim Dillon’s satire: “The Marines and the National Guard get sent into the cities where that money could have been used to better the lives of the people. That seems to make no sense.” (16:04)
• Krystal on the crackdown in Chicago: “Sending in Red State National Guard to Blue C seems to me like an absolutely insane move.” (19:41)
• Krystal breaking down the Chicago shooting: “Body cam footage was said to directly contradict the government's claim...directly contradict the government's claim that Martinez was driving towards officers when they fired at her in self defense.” (49:44)
• Saagar’s warning on violence: “...There is a permission structure to violence that I'm watching, like, pretty clearly play out with a lot of the commentariat.” (39:11)
• Krystal on creeping lawlessness: “We should be deeply concerned about the way that that zone of lawlessness continues to expand and the way that it tramples on all of our rights and takes away parts of America that I think you and I both really dread.” (41:41)
• Saagar on the fragility of order: “We saw how like George Floyd...to burning shit down happened in two weeks. My greatest fear ... is to see some sort of spiral like that happen...” (43:24)

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Important Timestamps

• Epstein files & Ghislaine pardon discussion: 02:00 – 08:24
• Supreme Court and political maneuvering: 03:11 – 08:24
• Healthcare shutdown politics: 09:32 – 12:15
• Tim Dillon/Chicago/National Guard: 15:56 – 18:20
• Legal debate on National Guard, ICE: 18:20 – 28:50
• Federal-local conflict, “neo-Confederate” debate: 29:32 – 39:20
• Debate on protest, violence, and institutional trust: 39:12 – 43:24
• In-depth: DHS agent shoots Maramar Martinez: 48:22 – 55:24

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Tone & Language

The episode maintains Breaking Points’ signature mix of dry cynicism, sharp skepticism toward power, and a sometimes combative, sometimes collegial left/right banter. Both hosts use frank, everyday language, sprinkle in dark humor, and treat news events as both immediate public emergencies and symptoms of deeper American malaise.

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Conclusion

A turbulent episode that encapsulates the current American political crossroads—where conspiracy, lawlessness, military force, and failing institutions collide. Krystal and Saagar highlight the urgency and seriousness of government overreach, civil liberties, and the fight for accountability, while also reminding listeners that the battle for truth, justice, and basic decency rages on across partisan lines.

Transcript

[Krystal Ball]

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[Saagar Enjeti]

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[Saagar Enjeti]

Hey guys, Sagar and Krystal here.

[Krystal Ball]

Independent media just played a truly massive role in this election and we are so excited about what that means for the future of this show.

[Saagar Enjeti]

This is the only place where you can find honest perspectives from the left and the right that simply does not exist anywhere else.

[Krystal Ball]

So if that is something that's important to you, Please go to BreakingPoints.com, become a member today and you'll get access to our full shows unedited ad free and all put together for you every morning. Morning in your inbox.

[Saagar Enjeti]

We need your help to build the future of independent news media and we hope to see [e-mail] turning now here to Washington. As we may have to remind you, the government is still shut down. Nobody really seems to care. But one of the underrated parts of that government shutdown is that the House is not swearing in a new member. And apparently that is part of a scheme to prevent her from from voting for a release of the Epstein files. The Speaker, Mike Johnson, was pressed on this on Meet the Press. Let's take a listen. Representative Grijalva, who won a special election last week in Arizona. She's yet to be sworn in. I know you're not in session, but You've sworn in Republicans out of session. Why not her? Does it have anything to do with Jeffrey Epstein? Well, the House is not on the floor doing business this week, but we will do it immediately, early next week, as soon as everyone returns to town. We have to have everybody here and we'll. We'll swear her in. I congratulate her on her. She replacing her father, who had a long history here. And she'll be a productive member of Congress. We look forward to that. We look forward to her as a member of Congress, but just not immediately because of reasons. Exactly. It definitely doesn't have anything to do with Epstein.

[Krystal Ball]

I don't know if that question's gonna fly under the Newberry regime.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Good point. See, this is the issue. That's great. Yeah. We can all look forward to the new CBS Mossad special over on 60 Minutes. It's gonna be great. Let's go and put this up here on the screen, shall we? Some major update from the Supreme Court at the very least, who rejected Ghislaine Maxwell's appeal to overturn her conviction. The conviction. We just gotta remember the way that Ghislaine was fighting this in court. Is that because Epstein got his sweetheart deal in 2007. Part of the non prosecution agreement was that the government will never prosecute you or any of your co conspirators. So Ghislaine argued in court that the government took back its word. The only reason that any of us even really know anything about the Holepsian case is because that agreement was ruled invalid because they did not notify the victims of the agreement. That's all they had to do and they never did it. So a judge struck that down in 2018. That's part of the reason that we know anything really about the case. And a lot of stuff actually came out into the public. So that has been the heart of Ghislaine's legal strategy to get out of this. Except for. Except for the new play for a pardon. A pardon from Donald Trump, who was asked about this actually in the Oval Office yesterday. Let's go ahead and play D4. Let's take a listen.

[Krystal Ball]

That means her only chance of getting out of prison is a pardon from you. Is that something you're.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Who are we talking about?

[Krystal Ball]

Ghislaine Maxwell.

[Saagar Enjeti]

You know, I haven't heard the name in so long I can say this that I'd have to take a look at it. I would have to take a look. Did they reject that she wanted to.

[Krystal Ball]

Appeal her conviction and what happened? They said that they were not going to hear her appeal.

[Saagar Enjeti]

I see. Well, I'll take a look at it. I'll speak to. I will speak to the doj. I have. A lot of people have asked me for pardons. I call him Puff Daddy has asked me for a pardon.

[Krystal Ball]

But she was convicted of child sex trafficking. Yeah.

[Saagar Enjeti]

I mean, I'm gonna have to take a look at it and have to ask doj. I didn't know they rejected it. I didn't know she was even asking for it. Frankly, I didn't know anything. I'm gonna have to ask doj.

[Krystal Ball]

I haven't heard her name in school.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Why don't you just rule it out?

[Krystal Ball]

I don't know.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Just rule it out. It's so weird. Just like the old days.

[Krystal Ball]

I mean, we know why. Because he's afraid of what she might say if he's not at least playing ball with her. I mean, that's the reason she got moved to this, like, Club Fed situation. And suddenly the leaks, the Wall Street Journal about the birthday book and whatever else, suddenly those things stopped. So he feels that he needs to at least play ball. And I would not be shocked at all if she ends up getting her pardon. Maybe it's at the end of this Trump administration when he's done and all is said and done or whatever, but I would not be shocked at all if he had.

[Saagar Enjeti]

I would be shocked if she got pardoned. I'll be honest. That would actually be genuinely shocking. I think probably what would happen is that he'll string it along for the entire time to kind of keep her at bay and keep the hope alive, and then maybe till the end. But look, you're not wrong. I mean, who the hell knows? The question is still. And this is always the issue, and this is where people who are like this is to distract from the Epstein files. I don't think they're 100% right, but they're not conceptually wrong in that the longer this plays out and the more there is a little bit of a drip, drip, drip, it can satisfy some of the curiosity. They just want it to go away. That's what they want more than anything. And what we all have to bank on is that there is at least some constituency that will remain there to push on it. Right now, some of that's Democrats. A lot of it is also Thomas Massie. There's some people, at least in the Senate and others who have pushed this forward, but without a sustained amount of pressure, we just can't have that. That's Part of the reason why it's so important to force this vote, because that would force the government to not only have to comply sometime in the future, but you can follow up on that. If the Democrats take Congress after the midterms, they can subpoena, they can continue up to go after. And this is the great folly in not just releasing the damn files in the first place. And so let's go ahead, for example, put D3 up on the screen. And this kind of shows the fear. There's this new representative who won the special election. She says, I can't see another reason it doesn't change the majority. Democrats are still in the minority. That seems to be the only outstanding issue I can see. It feels a little personal, specifically talking here about the Epstein vote. And one of the things actually that's kind of counterintuitive is that because there's a government shutdown, if she were sworn in and that's the only thing that would happen, then it would be a huge story. And so they need to make sure that it's just put at bay as long as possible. Recall, they took an entire month off and ended House early, specifically with no votes, just to delay this vote with the hope nothing will come out. We got the birthday book. Great. I guess, I mean, nothing particularly revelatory. There's still a lot more that needs to come out from it. But that's my fear, is that the longer that this goes on, there's no sustained political pressure and they just want it to die out. That's all the White House wants, is for this die. And by and large, most people have complied with Epstein itself. You know, it's not trending anymore. It's not like a number one thing. I think most people are still aware, but what, you know, it's number four on our list. Obviously, Venezuela is very important. Right. AIs and all that.

[Krystal Ball]

These aren't just instructions.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yeah.

[Krystal Ball]

These are not real.

[Saagar Enjeti]

This is real shit. We actually might overthrow a government in Venezuela. And so that is what they are hoping for more than anything on this story.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah. It's just that time goes by and people move on and nothing significant enough to put it right back in the news cycle comes out. That's what they're banking on and praying for. And, you know, the fact that Mike Johnson is going to such great lengths to keep from seating this one member of Congress when, you know, the House already passed their budget. So, you know, it's not like there's a close margin on these other things. The House Republicans, as she points out they still have the majority, whether she's there or not. So the only thing that it really is consequential for is this one very close vote with regard to the Epstein files. So, yeah, I mean, and this isn't the first time that Mike Johnson has moved heaven and earth to keep this vote on the release from going forward.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yeah. And, you know, it's also sad. It's a sad commentary on the number of Republicans who just go along. To my eye, there's like two Marjorie Taylor Greene and Thomas Massey. That's it. Everybody else is basically playing ball on this. I do wanna give a shout out to Marjorie. She had a more recent tweet about insurance.

[Krystal Ball]

I saw that. And you know, did you see Trump made some comments about maybe he was gonna make a deal with Democrats on health?

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yes.

[Krystal Ball]

So it may actually end up being Trump that blinks on the health care thing with regard to the shutdown.

[Saagar Enjeti]

I mean, it's not surprising at all. Does it take a genius to figure out the doubling of insurance premiums will.

[Krystal Ball]

Be politically bad for Republicans? Yeah.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yeah. What it's like, it's just so funny because it's the same thing that happened to Obama. What screwed Obama on Obamacare was the whole, if you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor. And it didn't happen. And everybody. A lot of people's insurance premiums were. Went sky high right around the time of the midterm elections and immediately afterwards, which is what screwed him. If he had a better opponent, I think he would have lost 2012. He could have lost easily on that alone. If you increase price directly attributable to legislation, you are an idiot politically. So, yeah. In some ways, the Democrats are almost trying to do them a favor, but maybe they have read them too well to know that they would never buckle on this and so they'll just let it roll. But it seems that Trump himself may actually blink on the health insurance premium thing, which, by the way, would be a good thing for the two Obamacare subscribers here.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah.

[Saagar Enjeti]

So.

[Krystal Ball]

Well, and we didn't get to this yesterday, but just worth pointing out, the analysis from Kaiser Family foundation says that more than 3 in 4 ACA Marketplace enrollees live in states won by Trump. Oh, of course, most of the people who would who are going to get screwed when premiums go up are actually, you know, in Trump states.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Well, people who are on Obamacare, we're the prototypical example. It's either the small business owner without a ton of staff or it's people who will work in jobs that don't offer healthcare. Right?

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah.

[Saagar Enjeti]

And that's like the, that's exactly what the Trump coalition was, was in 2024. That's what Steve Bannon always talked about with Medicaid. If you look at the Medicaid recipients, like who do you think these people are? If people over $100,000 a year voting Democrat, they're getting employer sponsored health insurance, they don't give a shit about Obamacare. It's people at the lower spectrum. Those are the ones who get screwed. Same on Medicaid. So this is this look. I mean, we could go on forever about Republican party and their own idiocy around the issue of healthcare. But yes, you are exactly correct about this because you can see how they both recognize it's a political issue, but they don't wanna buckle. And so they may walk themselves into a political disaster come the midterms. Or maybe they just don't care. I've never been able to figure these people out. I don't know what possible reason they think they're gonna win reelection. Like for what? For a tax cut? No, Epstein. Okay, you know, we'll see.

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[Krystal Ball]

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[Saagar Enjeti]

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[Krystal Ball]

Yeah, let's talk about this. So Tim Dillon had a bit on Trump using American cities as training grounds for the troops. Let's go ahead and take a listen to that.

[Saagar Enjeti]

We don't need the Marines in Chicago. I agree the Democratic Party's done a terrible job with public safety. But the idea that we're going to have the Marines in Chicago and we're going to be so we're so. Let me get this straight. I'm just trying to understand this. Again, I'm a college dropout. The money to build the educational institutions and the infrastructure in America, things like hospitals, things we need, that gets shipped to Israel. The Marines and the National Guard get sent into the cities where that money could have been used to better the lives of the people. That seems to make no sense.

[Krystal Ball]

I think Democrats should be taking notes from this and Tim Dillon and how to frame what's going on here because that was pretty effective messaging about where the administration's priorities seem to be.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yeah, I agree with you. But then they would have to agree with not sending arms to Israel. So we're not there yet. Right?

[Krystal Ball]

I mean, getting there.

[Saagar Enjeti]

First you have to. Yeah, first you have to get to the point. Well, I'm not so sure because I've always wondered this, this whole this, it's always been more of a Republican talking point, but considering how Dem's freaked out about usaid, it's like, is it really going to be kind of a core messaging conception about spend money here and not abroad? I don't know. It's just more of a interesting intellectual question. But I don't disagree with him literally whatsoever about the foreign aid question. And specifically, I mean, the funny thing is when you talk to the pro Israel defenders and all of them, they're always like, it's not that much money, it's only 3 billion a year. But Tucker actually recently had a great segment where he broke down the totality of the amount of money sent not just to Israel for in terms of aid, but also to Egypt so they don't go to war with Israel. But then also all of the billions that has cost just since October 7th to defend them for that price, you actually could quite unironically rebuild much of America's cities, have infrastructure points.

[Krystal Ball]

You can definitely afford FCA subsidies. At the very least, you could definitely, you know, there's, there's a lot of uses for that money here at home, no doubt about it. And just a couple of updates with regard to the National Guard deployment. So we covered yesterday that the judge in Oregon, Trump appointed judge in Oregon said you can't federalize the National Guard here, either at the Oregon National Guard or the California National Guard or the Texas National Guard or any other National Guard that you have in mind put in a temporary restraining order. JB Pritzker also took the administration to court to try to block the use of they want to use the Texas National Guard. I think this is insane using calling in red state National Guard into a blue state against blue state citizens. I think this is an incredibly dangerous escalation. So in any case, JB Pritzker went to court to try to also get a temporary restraining order against that. That judge is now allowing that federalization of troops and deployment into Chicago to go forward. We also had Trump yesterday saying he would consider invoking the Insurrection act, quote if it was necessary, particularly if the courts or state and local officials delay his plans to deploy the National Guard. So just escalating the tension. Escalating the tension. Trying to provoke some sort of a crisis, some sort of a confrontation where we're already seeing many of those play out. You know, those. The apartment raid that happened, some of the residents of that building are still missing. You also have a number of people who've been picked up by ice. I'm talking thousands of people who have just vanished. Their family members have no idea where they are, lawyers haven't been able to get in touch, et cetera. But, you know, they're ratcheting up the pressure. Ratcheting up the pressure. And sending in Red State National Guard to Blue C seems to me like an absolutely insane move.

[Saagar Enjeti]

It says here that the deployment would be some 200 Guard troops from Texas, which would be for the same justification about federal property. Right. So that's. See, this is where they. It's never. It's to crush crime, which is here in D.C. is the whole. Is for crime, not the protection of federal property. But then in Chicago, the messaging is about crime, but it's actually to protect ice or it's for deportation.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah.

[Saagar Enjeti]

It's like, what are we doing here? I don't know. I mean, I think the entire thing is totally crazy. In terms of the Insurrection act, as you said was to. Was invoking the Insurrection act, which not. Has not yet been invoked. And that was part of the original thing that they were doing. Part of the justification, the invocation here is around protecting federal property. Right. Which is the allowing to do some. What. You're going to have to correct me here because I'm still very confused on the convoluted nature. They're allowed to protect and assist law enforcement, but cannot carry out law enforcement action. Period.

[Krystal Ball]

Correct.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Whenever they are deployed under this authority.

[Krystal Ball]

Well, you're not wrong to be confused because the line is very hard to draw. So, like, for example, if they're involved in crowd control.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yeah.

[Krystal Ball]

Is that civilian law enforcement? If they're backing up ice, I would say that does constitute civilian law enforcement. So the line is blurry. And of course, the Trump administration pushes it as far as they can. DC is a bit of a special case because of the different laws here, etc. But if we see what they were doing in California, there were certainly instances where it appeared that they were doing domestic law enforcement actions, which should be illegal under Posse Comitatus. But putting all of that aside, what we're seeing in Chicago and Portland are the main focus right now. Is this just mass show of force? And, you know, I'm about to cover this shooting by a Customs and Border Patrol agent. You know, it was already clear that they lied about key details. Some of the details are still murky, but already clear that they lied about it. But this agent shot this woman and, you know, and appears to have done it, said, you know, do something, bitch, and then shoots her. So these are things that are already happening. And that's before we bring in the National Guard again. You know, you think that they believe this is politically, like, popular for them. I think that they are intentionally trying to provoke a crisis. Like they want to get to the Insurrection Act. And their MO has been from the beginning of this administration that they use either real or imagined or generated crises to try to consolidate more and more power. And so when I zoom out from just these individual deployments or what they're, you know, alleged to be intending to do them, and you see the law firms, you see the universities, you see the kidnapping of students, you see the crushing of dissent, you see the consolidation media power, you see all of the. You see the strikes on the Venezuela boats, you see the declaration of war against drug traffickers, and you put it all together. That's where I think this is a piece of the broader puzzle versus we shouldn't look at it in isolation. It's just.

[Saagar Enjeti]

I don't blame you for thinking that. I think the only reason I come from it this way is because I now know how stupid many of the people who are involved in this are. You would not try to take a fascist take over a. With 200 troops from Texas. Instead, you would do a larp of saying, look at these awesome Texas troops. And you would produce ice pornography for boomers on your OSMO cameras, which are apparently following them around right now. Listen, you can say one is really bad, which I think a lot of it is bad, but that's not the same thing as martial law in a city.

[Krystal Ball]

Okay?

[Saagar Enjeti]

And so this is kind of what I'm trying to get at here is at the end of the day, you can say what is happening is extraordinary, et cetera, but contextualized to say we're talking about 200 troops from the Texas National Guard, all of whom are gonna surround an ice building and do basically nothing. I mean, that's not.

[Krystal Ball]

I think that's an important discussion.

[Saagar Enjeti]

I'm not saying it's not crazy, but it's not. A martial law declaration, takeover of Chicago with Humvees in the streets, right?

[Krystal Ball]

Yes. And I think it's important to point that out and also to say when we're talking about free speech and the crushing of speech, it's not that like we're being critical of the Trump administration on the show right now. It's not that they have perfect and complete absolute power. It's that they want people to have to think twice. They want to make an example of a few people. They want to chill the ability to speak freely. And there's some evidence that this has been successful. I mean, with regard to the protests, there's a whole cottage industry of Democrats in particular love to point out, like, oh, there's so many fewer, like pro Palestine protests now. And there's a variety of reasons for that. But one of them there protests still going on, but I think it's fair to say not as widespread as they were at one point during the Biden administration. There are a variety of reasons for that, but one of them is because people are afraid. Like people are afraid of being targeted for pro Palestinian activism.

[Saagar Enjeti]

I've actually always found that such a stupid talking point. Yeah, nobody on the right gives a shit what a Palestinian protester has to say. Yeah, well, if anything, it's good for them.

[Krystal Ball]

Definitely true.

[Saagar Enjeti]

They can point at some pink haired weirdo and be like, look, this is our opposition. That's good for Israel. Right. The reason they protested under Biden was because they're part of the political coalition.

[Krystal Ball]

Because they thought they might actually be able to put pressure, naive on Biden. And then there's also just a level of fatigue where it's October 7th now, we're two years into, you know, this, this genocide. So all of that. But I do think part of it too, you have to take into account that, you know, they watched Ramisa Ozterk get kidnapped off the street. They saw Mahmoud Khalil be held in detention center and not be able to be present for the birth of his child. And they've seen, you know, students be expelled from universities after being pressured from the Trump administration to do all of that. So it is important as we see these escalations that you're right. It's not the caricature of like, oh, they roll in the Humvees and they just take over Chicago. But there is a show of force here that is meant to be coercive. And that is what the ICE part is. Partly a show of force. It's partly about obviously, like rounding up random immigrants. The National Guard deployments are also meant to be a show of Force. It's also meant to be content creation for like, like fascist boomer porn. It is all of those things.

[Saagar Enjeti]

I think a lot of it is heightening contradictions too, because what it demonstrates, for the purposes of Chicago, let's say you have Brandon Johnson who's declaring ICE free zones, right? And saying, oh, well, Chicago police are not going to help you. That's like catnip for Republicans, right? Because they can say, look, this mayor won't even allow the police to cooperate with ice, Which, I mean, I do think is kind of crazy in this whole sanctuary city thing. But courts have ruled, I guess it's legal. Doesn't make any sense to me. Same in Portland. They've basically declared, they're like, no, we're not going to help ICE or we're not gonna come to their defense or whatever for federal property, which this is the justification on the Feds. They want the narrative out there that Pritzker and Brandon Johnson and them are pro crime and pro illegal and at the very least haven't done anything about it. And so this is the people who are trying to restore law and order. Again, if I were you, if I were somebody who looked at this from the outside and wasn't as intimately familiar with some of the genuine retards, who are the people running this, I would also be deeply suspicious. So I do not blame anybody who is out there. What I have come to understand is much of this, as I said, about the 200 guardsmen, and that is genuinely about content to appear as tough so that we can have fun conversations amongst various people on Twitter and to basically have Fox News B roll that can roll everywhere without supposedly going the full way. Now, can I rule out the full way at this point? No.

[Krystal Ball]

Right, okay.

[Saagar Enjeti]

It's not that I'm not ruling that out whatsoever, but I don't think that's the actual plan. Quite literally, quite a lot of this is about social media, which is sick. I agree. Okay. It's sick to actually have to be where we are right now because of it. But that's, That's, I guess, a bigger.

[Krystal Ball]

Part of the conversation. I think it's both. Right? I mean, I think the content creation is an important part of the fascist projection of power. But when you've got, you've got this national security memorandum, you've got real things that are genuinely happening. And also once you've normalized, and they've basically already done this, once you've normalized soldiers on American streets conducting normal law enforcement activities, that's not something you can put back in the bag. And so those things are extraordinary and they should be treated as such, even if a component of it is also theatrical. And the theatrical is also. It is meant to scare people. It is meant to project something that creates a real impact, not just for, like, you know, their boomer audience. Yeah, I know.

[Saagar Enjeti]

But at the risk of getting into a crazy debate, it is a novel circumstance of, like. Like, if you have a city which doesn't wanna enforce the law, what do you do?

[Krystal Ball]

I don't know what you're doing.

[Saagar Enjeti]

It's like a neo confederate idea. Chicago can say illegals are legal.

[Krystal Ball]

But that's not true.

[Saagar Enjeti]

No, it is.

[Krystal Ball]

That is literally not true. I mean, like, let's use the example of Portland, because it's the one they're saying, oh, we have to go and protect this, like, one ICE building. Okay. There were protests there that were continuous. They had dwindled down to like 20 people. Law enforcement was their manager. They had made a number of arrests. In the context of these protests. Nothing. Again, insane. But it's not like law enforcement was just letting violent things happen and wasn't doing anything about it. So.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Well, you're pointing to Portland, but let's say in Chicago, in this case, like, okay, do we have video of the ICE people? Which, by the way, doesn't look good for the people of ICE who are involved here.

[Krystal Ball]

So here, you see, this is an immigrant that. I don't know if this is ICE or cbp. It was some federal agent are trying to apprehend. And he is struggling and they are struggling with him. And you see him down here on the ground. They're trying to get his hands into, you know, basically zip ties. Flex. Yeah, flex cuffs. Yeah, exactly. And random Chicago residents are stopping their cars and yelling at them and video recording them and telling them to leave him alone and telling them to go. And eventually, after struggling with him for a while, they do leave.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Okay, so on one level, the American in a lot of us is like, don't tread on me. Yeah, right. We don't.

[Krystal Ball]

Absolutely.

[Saagar Enjeti]

On the other, do we really want mass mobs of citizens to determine who is allowed to have law enforcement on the street or not? And this kind of gets to my Chicago police. So if the Chicago police say, we're not going to assist in a federal law enforcement operation, that is genuinely like a neo confederate idea where illegals aren't legal here. No, we have the supremacy clause of the U.S. constitution. The law of the land is supreme across all states. Like, I remember during Los Angeles. They're like, ICE needs to get out of la. You don't determine that. America determines that. Like, it's a weird.

[Krystal Ball]

Americans are determining it right there.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Okay, There are a few people. So, okay, those people on the street get to have more supremacy than the United States Constitution. Military in ice.

[Krystal Ball]

But no, you have to consider the context here, which is that ICE is routinely violating people's rights. Rights, right. Assaulting them, apprehending them with no warrants, flying in Black Hawk military helicopters. You're illegal.

[Saagar Enjeti]

They don't need a warrant to detain you.

[Krystal Ball]

Especially if you have, you and I.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Both know, a measure of detention.

[Krystal Ball]

You and I both know that it hasn't just been undocumented immigrants who have been apprehended. People feel their rights are being violated and they disagree with the. You know, with the. What they see as an invasion there. This is what city drives me nuts.

[Saagar Enjeti]

I'm sorry.

[Krystal Ball]

No, but like, the expectation is if you win an election, you're going to follow the law. And they're not doing that well. So that's where the context comes in of people know, they don't feel like it is just for some random. They don't trust that ICE is like, apprehending this guy in good faith or that they have a real reason to be apprehending him. They don't support the lawlessness and the rogue nature. ICE is out of control. Like, we've watched them assault American citizens. We've watched them, you know, they'll detain American citizens with no due process, no lawyer, no ability to make a phone call, no nothing. That is what this agency is doing. And so, yeah, people object to that.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Okay, you can object to it all you want. Again, do you not think it's a little bit crazy that municipalities get to just declare we will not be compliant with federal law? I mean, I think no, they're not.

[Krystal Ball]

Saying they won't be compliant with federal law. What they're saying is that we're you, okay, you want to come in and do your thing. Like, we can't stop you. But that doesn't mean we have to devote our law enforcement resources, which are limited to whatever dumb shit you want to do, which is, by the way, violating our own city's rights.

[Saagar Enjeti]

But in the case of, let's say, Los Angeles, they quite literally demanded withdrawal and lack of enforcement in their own city. It's like, you don't get to decide that the federal government does not have supremacy here. Like, we do need to stand up at the very Least for a little bit for this idea that. Cause, I mean, think about it. Would you really accept this locality arguments from the south, let's say, during.

[Krystal Ball]

No, everybody rejected it. But hold on. It's not like Gavin Newsom sent in the California National Guard to like repel ICE from the city. That's not what happened. ICE has been allowed to operate.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Well, it's not allowed.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah.

[Saagar Enjeti]

There's no allowing operate within. That's kind of what I'm saying. There's no allowing. They are operating.

[Krystal Ball]

It's federal territory. I know. That's what I'm saying. So I'm not sure what you're objecting to.

[Saagar Enjeti]

What I'm objecting to is like this rhetoric and this idea that these localities just get to simply decide that federal law enforcement does not get placed in what's happening. No, it is.

[Krystal Ball]

I mean, it's not.

[Saagar Enjeti]

In the case of Chicago, they're actively, genuinely trying to make sure that they're like not allowing their property to be mobilized. They're not determining any resources. They're saying that they won't answer any calls on the way there. This is not a defense of ice, who, I agree with you, has acted genuinely out of control. But there is a weird neo Confederate thing taking over. I think part of the modern left that seems to say that immigration enforcement is not allowed in blue states.

[Krystal Ball]

I think that is a misperception of what the argument has been and what the reality on the ground has been. So, for example, in Chicago, Chicago Police Department has been present at a lot of the protests. They've been, you know, they've provided crowd control, including, you know, to benefit ice. In this instance where this lady got shot, ICE originally lied and said orsor, whatever federal agency. There's a bunch, not just ice, that are on the ground there, said that Chicago Police Department didn't come and assist. That was just a total blatant lie of what actually occurred. In fact, ICE agents have been calling in, in the suburb Broadview, where the ICE facility is, they've been calling in phony, bogus 911 call, training resources, et cetera. So I don't like what you're describing. I don't think is the reality of what's actually taking place. And yes, do people object to the tactics of ice? Do they object to their rights being violated, little kids being dragged out in the middle of the night and zip tied? Of course they object to that. And it is their right as American citizens to object to that happening in their city.

[Saagar Enjeti]

No one's saying you can't object. Yeah, no one is saying that you cannot object. I think I am saying that you probably should not be interfering with law enforcement operation on the street in this way just because that can go down a very dangerous road quickly. I mean, it's like, okay, let's say do we support mob violence? Like, do we just support mob rule? I don't. I think it leads a very bad direction, even though I know much the left does after blm.

[Krystal Ball]

But I agree, Sager, but what I find more interesting about that video is, number one, the total incompetence of launch and on display. Number two, that these aren't activists. These are just random people who happen to be driving by. And so in the same way that we could evaluate the response to Luigi Mangioni murdering a healthcare CEO and say, well, when the American people find that to be potentially positive, or at least they're not upset about that happening, you have to ask the question why? And so I think that's more my point with the video is to say, like. Like it is an extraordinary thing that you have just seemingly every random person who happened to come by taking what are in your. You're right to say extraordinary actions, to say, I'm gonna involve myself, I'm gonna record this, I'm gonna object to this. A couple of them got physically involved in terms of trying to, you know, intervene here. That is a real break from the norm with the American public. And so that's what I find to be extraordinary about that video is what. What it says about how people in those communities are feeling about what's going on.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Sure. So we can sociologically think it's interesting. I think what I'm afraid of is literally the same thing of what happened with Antifa and BLM is it's not a far cry from leftist and mainstream media justification of, oh, that's good, that's what you're supposed to do. And I mean, this is where it's like people, you're afraid of conflagration. It's like, well, then there is too much of a permission structure right now.

[Krystal Ball]

But I feel like you are holding random individuals on the street to a higher standard. Standard than the President of the United States, the head of Department of Homeland Security, et cetera. Because they, I think it. To me, it is abundantly clear that what they want is some sort of a conflagration that they can use again to further expand power. They are actively courting that and they haven't really fully gotten that yet. Because you have had a level Of I don't know if it's disconnection or, you know, just. You have not had that. Or discipline, really, you have not had that full conflagration. But, you know, that's clearly when you are raiding an apartment building with Blackhawk helicopters. Like, that's clearly the sort of thing that you're after when you're sending red state troops into blue states. That is the sort of thing that you are courting. And it only takes one horrific thing going sideways to be, you know, in another country.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yeah, look, I mean, that's one interpretation of it. The other is, is that it's a shock and awe approach to make sure that people self deport, which is working. I'm not defending the eyes thing. I think it's crazy. I do not support that literally whatsoever. And in a lot of these cases, though, and this kind of. I'm pointing to the mob thing, I'm just watching the permission structure happen over and over again where it's like, oh, let's encourage this stuff, then you're gonna get what you want. When you guys start killing agents or any of that, I mean, it's crazy. And actually, before. Maybe. We'll talk about this after your monologue, but one of the things that should maybe hearten people is that at the very least in America, you do have to prove a lot of your shit in court if you're actually just going to accuse people. And if we think about some of the most extraordinary and stupid things, let's say that the Trump administration has tried to charge, remember the sandwich guy? The grand jury just throws that out immediately. You're about to do your whole monologue, people are lying, body cam, et cetera, has actually come to their savior. So I don't know. I mean, there's a lot of these warnings about some takeover. And again, a lot of the rhetoric is like Humvee's martial law being declared in Chicago. I do think it's important to contextualize and say, like, some of the system actually is holding in a way that I don't think is being portrayed. And instead there is a permission structure to violence that I'm watching, like, pretty clearly play out with a lot of the commentariat.

[Krystal Ball]

Well, I'll take your point. I'll just say in that particular video, no one was being violent. I mean, most of what people were doing were just standing there shouting.

[Saagar Enjeti]

You can't really involve yourself in a law enforcement operation. Like, that's literally obstruction of business.

[Krystal Ball]

But mostly what you saw was people stopping their cars Honking, yelling at them, which they're allowed to do.

[Saagar Enjeti]

I'm not talking about them. I'm talking about the people actually getting involved here.

[Krystal Ball]

I think that's crazy. Like, one guy who was like, you know, trying to pull him away.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yeah.

[Krystal Ball]

And everyone's like, oh, this guy's a hero. Most of what was happening was, first of all, them being thoroughly incompetent in an embarrassing way, which we've seen in other instances as well. I'm sure you saw that. Did you see the video of the guy in Maryland, some, like, ICE buffoon whose gun, like, fell out?

[Saagar Enjeti]

Oh, yeah.

[Krystal Ball]

Pointed his gun at the crowd and just. I mean, just clownish stuff. And by the way, that is only going to get worse because of how rapidly they are trying to increase the ranks of ice. But any case. So you have that, and then most of what you have is just people, like random people standing there and yelling and recording. That's fine. I'm not allowed to.

[Saagar Enjeti]

I support recording the police. It drives them crazy. Everybody should do it, especially if you see it around. You want to record ICE all you want, fine. I'm more talking about the permission structure for a lot of this stuff in the way that we talk about it, because I fear, just like with Luigi Mangione or something like that, somebody starting to take it seriously and not understanding the full context of where we are. Like, yes, things can be very, very, very, very, very bad. And they are. I'm not denying it. After we did a whole segment yesterday, I literally was like, I think the country is falling apart, like, quite literally. And at the same time, you know, you can have a body camp, you can have a federal agent accuse somebody shooting someone, apparently unjustly, as you're about to do your monologue on. And that can be disproven in a court in a day, and you can walk free. Now, that person's life was unjustly interfered with by the federal government and she should sue, in my opinion. And that's my thing, is we still have some faith in our institutions. I don't want people to be so blackpilled that they think that violence and all that genuinely is the answer. Cause that seems to be where things are trending right now.

[Krystal Ball]

I hope that you're wrong, but I agree. I share your concern. And the last. Last thing I would say is one of the fears is that you have some parts of the system that do still seem to function and work. And the court system at the lower level, especially being one of them, especially when it comes to Adjudicating business disputes and those sorts of things that continues to function. And at the same time, you have the executive which enabled by the Supreme Court, is carving out broader and broader zones where the laws really don't apply. So that's taking it back to Venezuela. When you're saying we're at war with drug cartels, that means, and drug traffickers, that means that if they randomly, you know, this is taking, this has not happened yet. If you randomly shoot someone on the street and you say they were an enemy combatant, they were a drug trafficker, like, is that now allowed? That's not that different from just blowing up random Venezuela, potentially. Migrants, immigrants at sea. So they continue to expand and carve out more and more zones where the laws really don't apply. And ICE has been one of the primary focal points of that because they can justifiably say, we ran on a mandate of mass deportation and this is what the American people want. But then when you're sweeping up American citizens and denying them due process rights, when you're assaulting American citizens. I know you and I both watched the business owner who had his ribs broken. We watched a woman whose husband was being deported, thrown to the ground and had to be hospitalized. Photojournalists who are just trying to record what's happening, being thrown to the ground and having head trauma. And this all happening with zero accountability. That's where it gets very concerning. Because that zone of lawlessness that the President has claimed continues to expand and expand and expand. So does that mean that everything is like totalitarian? We can't say, we can't criticize and we can't walk outside without being snatched up, blah, blah, blah. No, of course there are parts of society that still function. But we should be deeply concerned about the way that that zone of lawlessness continues to expand and the way that manifests itself, the way that it tramples on all of our rights and takes away parts of America that I think you and I both really dread.

[Saagar Enjeti]

No, I think that's very well said. As long as it's. I just, I fear the most of watching because we saw how like George Floyd, George Floyd murder to burning shit down happened in two weeks. Like we saw how quickly that can all transpire and then full blown rioting, that can just people getting murdered and everybody's totally okay with that. And then we have the BLM Ferguson effect on cops for the next two and a half years. My greatest fear, and I do think the government is complicit, is to see some sort of spiral like that happen and genuinely who knows. Cuz you can't trust the government right now with the way that they've handled the situation. And again I literally know some of the people who are actual idiots or know of the people who aren't sure. I don't trust their judgment at all. I still can't believe they're the people who got these jobs. Then there's also on the other side of that I see the permission structure starting to bubble up where each are their own like great, they're both greatest nightmare but also kind of the dream boogeyman that they want to create. And if there is not responsibility that prevails even in a dangerous moment like this, things are going. Things can go south so quickly. All right, with basically a preview crystal, what do you take on that dude?

[Krystal Ball]

All right, let's take a look at this.

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[Saagar Enjeti]

All I know is what I've been told and that to have truth is a whole lot.

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[Saagar Enjeti]

I'm telling you, we know Quincy killed her.

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[Saagar Enjeti]

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[Saagar Enjeti]

I did not know her and I did not kill her or rape or burn or any of that other stuff that y' all said.

[Krystal Ball]

They literally made me say that I.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Took a match and struck and threw it on her.

[Krystal Ball]

They made me say that I poured gas on her. Are.

[Podcast Advertiser/Host]

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[Krystal Ball]

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[Saagar Enjeti]

Bad things happens to good people and small towns.

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[Saagar Enjeti]

I'm Jonathan Goldstein and on the new season of Heavyweight, I help a centenarian mend a broken heart. How can one year old woman fall in love again? And I help a man atone for an armed robbery he committed at 14 years old. And so I pointed the gun at him and said, this isn't a joke. And he got down. And I remember feeling kind of a surge of like, okay, this is power. Plus, my old friend Gregor and his brother tried to solve my problems through hypnotism. We could give you a whole brand new thing where you're like super charming all the time, being more able to look people in the eye, not always hide behind a microphone. Listen to heavyweight on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Krystal Ball]

Over the weekend, amid the ice created melee in Chicago, an immigration agent shot an American woman multiple times following some sort of a traffic incident. Now, that incident escalated protests in the city that has already been rocked by DHS's heavy handed tactics, including as we've discussed here, an apartment raid that involved Black Hawk helicopters. Now, the details of exactly what transpired with this woman, whose name is Maramar Martinez, are kind of murky. But what has become quite clear is that the government initially lied about some really key details and now her lawyer is claiming that body cam footage undercuts their story entirely. This is raising serious questions about whether armed federal agents just shot an anti ice activist and then brazenly lied about it to cover their tracks. So let me take you through the timeline of their shifting stories and exactly what the evidence shows. So this incident, it occurred on Saturday morning and involved not only Martinez, but another motorist, Anthony Ruiz, who was not shot but was arrested on Saturday evening. DHS spokesperson Trisha McLaughlin put out the following statement with the government's first version of the events that led up to that shooting. Now pay attention to the details Here, these are going to matter. McLaughlin wrote, quote, quote, this morning during routine patrolling in Broadview in the same area of Chicago that law enforcement were assaulted yesterday. Our brave law enforcement officers were rammed by vehicles and boxed in by 10 cars. Agents were unable to move their vehicles and exited the car. One of the drivers who ran the law enforcement vehicle was armed with a semi automatic weapon. Law enforcement was forced to deploy their weapons and fire defensive shots at an armed US citizen who drove herself to the hospital to get care for wounds. The armed woman was named in a CBP Intelligence Intelligence bulletin last week for doxing agents and posting online. Hey, to all my gang, let's fuck those motherfuckers up. Don't let them take anyone. Thankfully, no law enforcement officers were seriously injured in this attack. Pritzker's Chicago Police Department is leaving the shooting scene and refuses to assist us in securing the area. There is a growing crowd and we are deploying special operations to control the scene. This is an evolving situation. We will give more info as soon as it becomes available. So. So that was their first version of events. Now, that story was immediately called into question from a variety of directions. First of all, the other motorist, Anthony Ruiz's mother, denied the government's version of events. According to the New York Times, Mr. Ruiz's mother, Elizabeth Ruiz, said her son told her on the phone in the morning he had been rammed by federal agents and that they were shooting. Upon hearing that, she said she raced to the scene. She said an agent grabbed her son, said he was under arrest. When she asked why, she said she received no answer. So according to Ruiz and his mother, he just happened to be in the area, was rammed by ice, and then arrested for no reason. Then Chicago Police Department said the DHS was also lying about their supposed failure to assist in crowd control. Quote, in a statement, Chicago police clarified officers did respond to the shooting scene involving federal agents on Saturday near the intersection of West 39th street and South Kedzia Avenue around 10:30am Police said their purpose was to, quote, maintain public safety and traffic control. Then we got the actual charging document from the government and key details from McLaughlin's original story about Martinez were now missing. So the government themselves undercut key details of their original narrative. First of all, McLaughlin got the location wrong. Second, remember how she claimed that they were boxed in by 10 cars? Suddenly, in the criminal complaint, only four cars were mentioned. Martinez, Ruiz and two others. Originally, McLaughlin had said that Martinez drove herself to the hospital. Complaint says that she was actually taken by ambulance from a nearby repair shop. But most critically, McLaughlin had originally claimed the government had to fire shots in self defense, in part because Martinez was armed with a semi automatic weapon. The criminal complaint makes no mention of Martinez carrying a firearm. So even before an initial hearing on the charges facing Martinez, government had already contradicted their own story in multiple significant ways. But a hearing last night raised even more questions about exactly what happened here. So Chicago Tribune reporter Jason Meisner covered these proceedings. According to Martinez's attorney there at those proceedings, the presence of rogue armed agents of the state, that was the real danger to the community, not Martinez. Martinez's team alleged that body cam footage tells a totally different story than what the government has been selling. So her attorney told the court, based on repeated viewings of the body cam footage, you can see the agent who was driving suddenly turned the wheel to the left, indicating he actually ran Martinez, not the other way around. Then the agent jumps out and starts shooting. Martinez's attorney also argued that the pattern the bullet bullets through Martinez's passenger side door was inconsistent with the government's narrative about a head on ramming. In addition, the body cam footage captures this agent saying, quote, do something bitch, before he jumps out of the car and starts firing his weapon. The body cam footage was said to directly contradict the government's claim that Martinez was driving towards officers when they fired at her in self defense. What's more, after the shooting, the agent appears to warn another agent about speaking plainly about what had just occurred. Cognizant of the body cam's recording, quote, after the shooting, Martinez's lawyer says the body camera captured another agent coming up and saying, hey, what happened? The agent points to his body cam and says, hey, don't speak, you're good. As for the government, their lawyer did claim that that same body cam footage captured an agent saying, we're getting boxed in, we gotta get out of here. She's going to make contact contact right before the car is struck on both sides. Now, notably, Martinez's attorney offered to show the body cam footage to the court, while the government lawyers made no such offer. Ultimately, Martinez was shot five times. She's now being charged with forcibly assaulting, resisting, opposing, impeding, intimidating, or interfering with a federal law enforcement officer in the performance of their official duties. So far though, the judge does not seem too impressed with the government's case. Both Martinez and Ruiz were ordered released after the judge found the government did not meet the bar for requiring the two to be detained until their trial. Now, given that body camera footage exists, we are eventually going to get the real story of what exactly transpired here. But already in significant ways, the government's story of self defense against a rampaging woman with a semiautomatic weapon has completely fallen apart. And while no agents were injured, an American woman suffered five gunshot wounds from her own government. And one can only assume there will be more dangerous and potentially deadly encounters between citizens of our country and the government. Their tax dollars fund as the Trump regime escalates their ICE and National Guard deployments. And so Sagar, you were talking about, and this is a risk of, you.

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See Amazon.com Amazon prime for details. This is an iHeart podcast.