10/8/25: Soybean Farmers Screwed By Milei Bailout, Bibi Salivates Over Iran War, Candace Owens Kirk Texts Confirmed, Douglas Murray Caught Writing Draft For Israeli Official

Summary

Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar – October 8, 2025

Main Theme & Purpose

This episode takes listeners through a series of explosive revelations in world politics, media, and conservative movements. The hosts, with a cross-ideological format, break down the controversial US bailout of Argentina and its effect on American farmers; media-fueled Israeli influence operations targeting Iran; the fallout and intrigue around Charlie Kirk’s assassination (including confirmation of sensitive text messages and allegations of pressure from pro-Israel donors); and the uncovering of journalists’ direct collaboration with Israeli officials. Throughout, Krystal, Saagar, and guests reveal conflicts of interest and corruption underlying international financial and media operations, raising questions about integrity, accountability, and the weaponization of information.

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1. US Bailout of Argentina: Global Trade Fallout and Hedge Fund Interests

Timestamps: [02:11]–[15:40]

Key Points

• Background & Context:

  • The US Treasury orchestrated a $20 billion bailout for Argentina amidst an economic crisis, impacting American soybean farmers who are already struggling due to ongoing trade wars with China ([03:01]).
  • China, after US tariffs, stopped buying American soybeans, devastating the main export market for US farmers ([03:40]).

• Hedge Funds’ Role:

  • Hedge fund managers Rob Citrone and Scott Bessant are revealed as central figures lobbying for the bailout, with personal financial interests at stake ([04:19]).
  • Citrone and Bessant have a history of executing highly leveraged, lucrative currency trades at the expense of the populations involved ([08:30]).

• Argentine Insight:

  • Guest journalist Eugenia Muzio explains how Argentina’s dire exchange rate situation before a pivotal election created desperation for immediate liquidity, pushing officials to accept questionable deals ([05:44]).
  • Muzio contrasts market chatter over the bailout with the apathy among ordinary Argentinians, occupied with soaring inflation and joblessness ([10:15]).

• Political Tension:

  • The US explicitly aims to stabilize President Milei before elections, with Secretary Bessant openly tying bailout timing to Argentina’s political calendar ([14:06], [14:33]).
  • Markets remain anxious due to a lack of transparency about the bailout’s mechanics ([14:33]).

Notable Quotes

“The farmer can’t continue to produce a crop below the cost of production. And that’s where we’re at…they’ve painted us in a corner with this China deal.”
— US Soybean Farmer, [03:21]

“I think it was a desperate movement from Argentina…and the people that are around…took advantage of it.”
— Eugenia Muzio, [07:56]

“Citrone is saying that Scott Bessant…made a billion dollars like in a day, which…extracts wealth off the backs of regular people.”
— Saagar Enjeti, [09:08]

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2. Israeli Disinformation Campaign: Iran, Social Media Bots, and Manufactured Consent

Timestamps: [19:33]–[33:54]

Key Points

• Citizen Lab Report:

  • Haaretz and Citizen Lab exposed an Israeli-run astroturfing operation using bots to artificially inflate support for Reza Pahlavi as a “day after” leader in Iran, and to spread fake news during the 12 Day War ([19:33], [22:17]).

• Methods & Manipulation:

  • Bots seeded AI-generated videos and hashtags to incite panic, claim prison bombings, and urge people to storm Tehran’s Evin prison ([28:15], [29:23]).
  • The campaign’s real target seems to have been Western journalists and policy-makers, attempting to create the illusion of imminent regime change in Iran ([29:48], [31:29]).

• Netanyahu Rhetoric:

  • Netanyahu uses Western media appearances like Ben Shapiro’s show to escalate fears about Iran’s capabilities as a way to drum up US support for military intervention ([21:02]).

• Iranian Response:

  • The Israeli information campaign falls flat within Iran—no mass protests or regime collapse results, highlighting the gap between Western perceptions and local realities ([31:38]).

Notable Quotes

“The American public is not supportive of another regime change, big, endless war in the Middle East…The Israelis have found in Reza Pahlavi the product for the day after.”
— Krystal Ball, [22:17]

“The Citizen Lab conclusion is this couldn’t have been done by an entity who didn’t have knowledge…probably someone paid by the government closely linked with the IDF.”
— Negar Mortazavi, [24:20]

“Iranians will rise themselves…We saw the exact opposite. The Israeli bombings…created a rally around the flag in Iran. Not one person protested.”
— Negar Mortazavi, [33:12]

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3. The Charlie Kirk Assassination: Text Messages, Donor Pressure, and Conservative Rift

Timestamps: [37:41]–[47:42]

Key Points

• Candace Owens’ Revelations:

  • Owens cites three sources confirming Kirk believed he was at risk of being killed, and shares off-record communications indicating his growing fear ([38:00]).
  • Text screenshots confirm Kirk’s exasperation with ongoing pressures from “conservative Zionists” and major donors to “cancel Tucker [Carlson]” or disassociate with Owens ([41:33]).

• Confirmation of Leaks:

  • Andrew Colvett, Kirk’s friend and show producer, publicly confirms the authenticity of the text messages showing Kirk’s frustration ([41:09], [42:24]).

• Tensions in Conservative Politics:

  • Kirk’s organization, built on free debate, is torn apart by donor threats and internal debates over Israel, highlighting a deep schism within the movement ([42:34], [43:37]).

• Media Analysis:

  • The hosts reflect on the ugly reality of political digital footprints; even public figures trying to maintain alliances and dialogue are vulnerable to posthumous scrutiny ([45:19]).

Notable Quotes

“He was very clear and explicit…just lost another huge Jewish donor—$2 million a year—because we won’t cancel Tucker. I cannot and will not be bullied like this, leaving me no choice but to leave the pro-Israel cause.”
— Candace Owens quoting Charlie Kirk, [41:33]

“The idea that you can’t have this debate, which is tearing the conservative movement apart, is just anathema to his very being.”
— Saagar Enjeti, [46:41]

“It’s just so ugly…the amount of digital evidence you leave now…It seems the big takeaway is that he was trying to keep everybody happy.”
— Ryan Grim, [45:19]

---

4. Media Collusion with Israeli Officials: Journalists Caught Writing Speeches and Raising Funds

Timestamps: [51:23]–[68:03]

Key Points

• DropSite News Investigation:

  • Journalists and media figures—David Frum (The Atlantic), Douglas Murray, Seth Mandel (Commentary), and CNN’s Pamela Gross—were found collaborating closely with Israeli Ambassador Ron Proser ([51:23]).

• Conflict of Interest Exposed:

  • Frum and Mandel co-authored drafts of an Israeli speech for the UN, while simultaneously reporting on Israel for their outlets ([53:20], [54:02]).
  • Murray not only wrote speeches but personally raised over £1 million for IDF soldiers ([55:41]).
  • Gross (formerly CNN) was thanked by the ambassador for being a “true asset” to Israel and was actively booking him for on-air appearances while fundraising for Iron Dome ([65:38]).

• No Disclosure, No Accountability:

  • No outlets involved disclosed these collaborations or conflicts to their readers ([57:10], [57:45]).
  • Hosts lambast the audacity of these journalists to lecture about media ethics while engaging in such blatant activism ([61:20], [62:56]).

Notable Quotes

“That is a thing you’re doing. It is collaboration with the Israeli government. If you are drafting speeches for the ambassador, raising money…you don’t get to then denounce somebody else who hasn’t done the same thing.”
— Saagar Enjeti, [63:04]

“You do not want to be told as a journalist that you are a, quote, true asset to the state of Israel.”
— Ryan Grim, [65:38]

---

5. Quick Fire Update: Trump Calls for Political Imprisonment

Timestamps: [70:06]–[73:25]

Key Points

• Breaking News:
  • During recording, Trump posted calling for Illinois Governor J.B. Pritzker and Chicago Mayor Brandon Johnson to be jailed for “failing to protect ICE officers” ([70:06]).
• Host Critique:
  • Saagar and Ryan dissect the logical gaps and the politics, noting Trump’s muddled messaging and unpredictability ([70:51], [71:59]).

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

“If you try to tell me what I can and can’t do, I’m going to go the opposite direction…Just to, like, draw boundaries. Be like, no, this is my conference. This is my organization. I’m going to make the decisions.”
— Saagar Enjeti, channeling the mindset driving the intra-conservative schism ([43:37])

“Just because you put on a flak jacket that says press doesn’t make you press.”
— Saagar Enjeti, [63:39] (on Douglas Murray’s trips with IDF in Gaza)

“It’s shocking and not shocking simultaneously.”
— Ryan Grim, [66:49] (on discovering open collusion between journalists and foreign governments)

---

Segment Timestamps Overview

• US–Argentina Soybean Bailout: [02:11]–[15:40]
• Israeli Information Ops/Iran/Netanyahu: [19:33]–[33:54]
• Candace Owens/Charlie Kirk Leaks: [37:41]–[47:42]
• Journalists Colluding with Israel: [51:23]–[68:03]
• Trump Calls for Pritzker/JB to be Jailed: [70:06]–[73:25]

---

Tone & Style

The episode is urgent, adversarial, and often exasperated, with the hosts holding the line between investigative reporting and fierce, sometimes sarcastic critique. Guests provide expert international context, while Krystal and Saagar push for transparency and highlight the dangers of intertwining government, finance, journalism, and activism.

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Summary

This episode exposes deep systemic issues in global finance, politics, and media: from hedge funds pulling international strings, governments and elites gaming crises for political gains, toxic donor influence over American political movements, and journalists abandoning independence. Through a combination of hard reporting, whistleblower documents, and on-the-ground analysis, Breaking Points continues its mission to make today’s power games transparent for all audiences.

Transcript

[Krystal Ball]

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[Saagar Enjeti]

Morning in your inbox. We need your help to build the future of independent news media and we hope to see you@breaking points.com in a moment. We're going to be joined by Argentine reporter Eugenia Muzio from Perfil, a news outlet down in Argentina, who's broken some significant news on this American a bailout of Argentina at the expense of American farmers, and in particular, the role of hedge funder Rob Citrone in lobbying Treasury Secretary Scott Bessen, himself a former hedge funder, in enacting that bailout. But first we wanted to check in on Argentinian President Xavier Milei and see how he's responding to this bailout.

[Ryan Grim]

Okay.

[Saagar Enjeti]

All right. There we go.

[Ryan Grim]

He's doing great. All right.

[Saagar Enjeti]

To give a little bit of context, if you haven't been following our reporting on this, let's roll D3 to show that. Show the kind of different reaction that American farmers are having to this bailout. Well, the stop gap needs to come because they've kind of painted the farmer in a corner. I mean, I want trade, not a. I need a market. I need a place to sell this stuff. I can work hard enough and make a product. If you give me someplace to sell it, I'll take care of myself. But they've painted us in a corner with this China deal and China buying no soybeans. I mean, they've tore our market in half. I mean, if you take the four years prior to Trump's first tariff war, the average price of a bushel of soybeans is $12.54. The average price for the four years during Trump's first tariff war is $9.39. That's $163 an acre. Swing to the minus. The next four years after the tariff war, the average price is $13.59. That's a $218 upswing. Now we're back to $10.21. I think the board is. Today, my local elevators, $9.79. So I'm at $172 an acre loss. I mean, you can't. The farmer can't continue to produce a crop below the cost of production. And that's where we're at. And we don't have anywhere to sell it. We're in a tariff war with China. We're in a tariff war with everybody else. I mean, where do they want me to market this stuff? All right. Joining us now is Eugenia Muzio, a reporter from Argentina who's been doing a lot of work on this case. And so, for people not following along. So the Trump administration started its second trade war with China. China responded by telling the United States, we're not buying any of your soybeans. Most of the soybeans that the United States grows go to China. That's a huge problem for American farmers. The two main competitors to the United States are, when it comes to soybeans are Brazil and Argentina. Brazil selling enormous amounts of soybeans over to China. Argentina struggling economically big time. All of a sudden, they get a lifeline from Treasury Secretary Scott Bessant in the form of a $20 billion bailout. Immediately, the Argentinian government cuts its export taxes, and then they sell enormous amounts of soybeans to China at a much discounted price, infuriating American farmers. But it turns out, according to the reporting down in Argentina, that American hedge funds played a significant role in this. So Eugenia, can you tell us a little bit about Rabsitron and the role more generally of hedge funds in helping to bring about this kind of catastrophic situation for everybody?

[Eugenia Muzio]

Well, hello to everyone. Yes, well, that's me. That policy that Minister Luis Caputo take on, I think it was like a desperate policy because Argentina was passing through like a week with a lot of financial expectation because we have elections going on on October 26th. And in Argentina elections are always like they move along a lot of things in economy, most of. So I think it was a desperate policy from Minister Caputo because he needed liquidity in the markets because the pressure for the dollar, our exchange rate is very, very strong. So in Argentina when the dollar comes up, then our prices comes up and the inflation is like the inflation is a thing here. So yes, Rob Citron I know he knows Viscaputo. He knows also Scott Besant, he buy bones from Argentina before all this. All of this stuff that is going on, it seems like is it, I don't know, it may be a financial advantage from some hedge funds. So here in Argentina we are expecting the bailouts, we are expecting news because our minister Luis Caputo is now there in Washington. He's been there for six days. That it's a lot for a country. It is in a financial crisis, our crisis. We have an economic crisis, like very strong economic crisis. But now we are passing through like financial crisis because we have a debt, a little, sorry, a big debt in January with holdouts. So it's like $4 billion and contain exchange. Foreign reserves are very, very low, even in negative rates. I would say if there's not for imf also dollars. So I think it was a desperate movement from Argentina and then the people that are around Viscaputo and also Scott Bessen took advantage of its.

[Ryan Grim]

So let's watch a little bit of Rob Citrone. This is going to be D2 and we'll get your reaction. Eugenia?

[Saagar Enjeti]

Well, I think there's special times every five or 10 years where there's a really spectacular trade in investment that we then will concentrate in a meaningful way. 2013 in the dollar yen where we made over a billion dollars, long dollar yen. And in fact we discussed it quite a bit with George and I kind of convinced George and Scott Besson at the time to go big in that and Scott says, I was responsible for 75% of his bonus at Soros, kind of jokingly over that time.

[Ryan Grim]

So it was on the Goldman Sachs podcast, actually. Ryan, what did you want to add?

[Saagar Enjeti]

No, yeah, yeah. Just, just, just in case people aren't following along there. And Johanna, you can pick up on this. So Citrone is saying that Scott Besant for the George Soros Fund.

[Ryan Grim]

Yep.

[Saagar Enjeti]

He and. He and Besant collectively went in together and pulled off a trade on the yen, the same type of currency play that he's doing with Argentina where he made a billion dollars like in a day, which we can get into the way that that kind of currency trading extracts wealth off the backs of regular people. So he and his friend Besant are on record as having done this kind of currency play before. And so now he is back in Argentina making the same currency play, but now his friend is the treasury Secretary and bails him out of a bad trade. Like, what have you found? What have you discovered about this and how are people in Argentina reacting to this? Because in some ways this bailout probably, while it helps Citrono, also helps Argentina to stave off a bit of a financial crisis. So maybe. So this level of corruption is like, they're like, okay, well fine, help us out here. So yeah, what's been the response and what have you found?

[Eugenia Muzio]

Well, I think people didn't respond to this Roxy Tron currency trade because I think they are like more occupied in their own economic crisis here. The economic crisis is a thing, I think. I mean, salaries are very low, jobs are. We have like a high level of unemployment. So I don't think like the regular people have like an impact of this. Yes, the markets, the markets are talking about this, but this is not new for Argentina. We have lots of corruption crisis. Maybe, maybe you heard about Jose Bissebert, the candidate of La Libertada Banza, which is the. The party of the government that had to links with narcotraffic. So maybe that's the thing that is going on here and what's on news, but not Roxytron. And it's peculiar because we are talking about a currency crisis, a financial crisis, an economic crisis. And a friend of the Secretary of the Treasury, Secretary of United States, the one that is going to give the bailout to Argentina had a friend that already run a currency trade twice with Japan and George Soros. Okay. But has no impact in regular people. I will say, I would say markets are going to. Or maybe already thinking about it, but.

[Ryan Grim]

Not a big movement Eugenia last question for me is could you tell us more about the political situation facing Milei right now? You mentioned the desperation in Argentina. Why is there that sense of desperation? What sort of political situation does Milei find himself in right now? And why would it be important for the United States to continue supporting. Supporting who they see as an ally, sort of an ally that finds himself maybe in some political trouble in the case of Milei.

[Eugenia Muzio]

Okay, yes. Well, in Argentina, exchange rates is very important. As I said, our exchange rates determines inflation. And in april we have IMF 20 billion also. And that 20 billion was used to maintain our exchange rate low, because low exchange in Argentina, it means we have no inflation or it's like a fact, a very important fact for inflation. So there was interventions in markets, I mean central bank, I mean Argentine treasury. And then we are in. They didn't do monetary policy to keep our peso, our currency up. So now we are here in this situation that the pressure in the markets are extremely high because we are going to an election in October 26th and they pass. And when you get closely to the elections, the pressure is also high.

[Ryan Grim]

So.

[Saagar Enjeti]

On that point, when Scott Besant bailed out Argentina or announced that he was going to do it, he specifically said he wanted to do it in order to help Milei in the upcoming elections, which he said would then bring in more foreign capital into Argentina. How do Argentinians feel about the US Just saying out loud that we're trying to buy Melaye the upcoming election?

[Eugenia Muzio]

Yes. The thing that is going on right now is that we don't have news about how it's going to help United States to Argentina. We know there is a swap negotiation of 20 billion, but that's it. I mean, there's no details, there's no period of time that we are going to receive the money. It's not a money, it's a credit line. It's a swap between central banks. But now the thing is that we are expecting news, like details, and the details are not coming, so that the markets are nervous and they passed and Minister Caputo is still in Washington. So we are expecting the news. And if there's no news, no news is bad. In between the next days there will be bad news.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yes. Interesting.

[Ryan Grim]

Well, Eugenia, thank you so much for coming on and breaking this down. People can check out your reporting over at Parfil, but thank you, thank you, thank you.

[Eugenia Muzio]

It was a pleasure.

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[Eugenia Muzio]

All I know is what I've been told and that's a half truth is a whole lie.

[Maggie Freeling]

For almost a decade, the murder of an 18 year old girl from a small town in Graves County, Kentucky went unsolved until a local homemaker, a journalist and a handful of girls came forward with a story.

[Eugenia Muzio]

I'm telling you, we know Quincy killed her.

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Gas on her.

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America, y' all better wake the hell up. Bad things happens to good people and small towns.

[Maggie Freeling]

Listen to Graves county in the Bone Valley. Feed on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. And to binge the entire season at first, subscribe to Lava For Good. Plus on Apple Podcasts.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

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[Saagar Enjeti]

So a new report in the Israeli outlet Haaretz, which is based on research done by Citizen Lab, we can put up E2 here. Finds an incredible astroturfed network of basically bots operating on social media with what appear to be two primary goals. The first is convincing the world that the Iranian people desperately crave the return of the Shah. And in particular in the form of Reza Pahlavi, who appears to have actually basically no constituency anywhere either outside of Iran or in it. But the Israeli baht accounts are genuinely producing some sense among policymakers that he might actually be a thing. And then separately and relatedly, they played an active role during the 12 day war in creating basically fake news inside of Iran that was then picked up by Western outlets as actually having occurred, being the real behavior of actual Iranians inside during the war. So to talk about that is Negar Mortazabi, who was a policy analyst with the. What's it called? Center for International Policy. Is that right?

[Eugenia Muzio]

Yes.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Old school kind of institution, skeptical of American intervention abroad. Thank you so much for joining us. Really appreciate it.

[Eugenia Muzio]

Thanks for having me.

[Ryan Grim]

So.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Walk us through some of this report. And we have. Oh, and before we get to that, I think it's important to set the context here that we might be looking at war, like any day now. Netanyahu sat down with Ben Shapiro just this week, and effectively, if anybody was concerned, if anybody thought that maybe we're going to break from, you know, Israeli state rattling towards Iran, they were. They were disappointed. So let's roll a little bit of Ben Shapiro and Netanyahu first. People probably don't believe it, right? We're far away, right? No, you're not. Iran is developing now ballistic missiles that are intercontinental ballistic missiles for 8,000 kilometer range. What does that mean? They add another 3,000 kilometers and they've got under their gun, under their atomic guns, the New York City in Target, Washington, Boston, Miami, Mar A Lago. Okay, so that is a very great danger. You don't want to be under the nuclear gun of these people who are not necessarily rational and who chant death to America. All right, so Negar, what can you tell us about this, what Haaretz and Citizen Lab uncovered here when it comes to this Astroturf operation?

[Eugenia Muzio]

Sure.

[Krystal Ball]

Right. And just to give some background, what we saw is Benjamin Netanyahu basically trying to manufacture consent for a US War on Iran, which is something he's been trying to do for over 20 years. Very publicly. He's talked about it in U.S. congress. Behind the scenes, he's been trying to push a sort of boots on the ground, regime change type war that the US did in Iraq, also in Iran. The problem is the American public is not supportive of another regime change. Big war, endless war in the Middle East. And also one big question, people, Americans and others ask, is, what if the regime falls? What's next? What's the day after? I think the Israelis have found in Reza Pahlavi sort of the product or that answer for the day after. This is the person for the day after. This is the seemingly democratic Western dressing, you know, well suited and well spoken person with good English that you want to be ruling Iran. The problem is the Iranians don't really think that. And so that brings us to sort of these disinformation. AstroTurf AI generated fake campaigns. This is actually something that's been going on for four years, since the first Trump term. And many of us Iran watchers have been observing these massive, massive operations online. The problem is it's very hard to get evidence to actually connect them to the Israeli government because they cover up the tracks really well. So this is one of the few, and it's not the first one, but this is one of the few investigative reports that actually shows the evidence connects. I believe Haritz has insiders who have leaked some of this information to them. Their investigative board and Citizen Lab has really dug deep and looked at some of these accounts that were posting content. And I think one thing that maybe tipped off Citizen Lab and really made this disturbing is that these accounts were posting content that was prepared seemingly with knowledge that the Israelis are going what the Israeli army is going to do in Iran, specifically the bombing of the Ebing prison in Tehran. So videos that had been produced, fake videos of the bombing of the prison were put out very quickly after the actual prison was bombed. And the Citizen Lab sort of conclusion is that this couldn't have been done by an entity who didn't have knowledge. So this is probably an entity, a contractor, whoever is paid by the government who also had very intimate knowledge and relationship with the IDF and their operations, which makes it so much more disturbing because so many prisoners and also civilians died in that prisoner bombing of the prison.

[Ryan Grim]

When Ryan first drew my attention to the story, my reaction was I always assumed this was an American neocon op. I mean, it's very clear that there are interests who have backed Pahlavi for a long time. But this day after point that you're making is really important. So walk us a bit through the evidence that ties this. I mean, I'm sure there are American neocons who support this campaign, but walk us through the evidence and the way that it goes directly to the Israeli government, as was documented in the report.

[Krystal Ball]

Absolutely. So just to add to your point, yes, there has also been a neocon sort of push, including online campaigns that have been promoting Pahlavi for years. Especially we saw the uptick with the first, during the first Trump term with sort of the more pro war neocon camp was trying to push for attacks, for war in Iran and at the same time promoting this person as a viable sort of alternative to the regime. Well, the evidence, the Harrods reporting is mostly looking at how these fake accounts and bots and trolls are promoting Reza Pahlavi and sort of showing a fake support, a popular support for him through online. And they also connected to something important he says in one of his trips to Israel. This is also important to know. Reza Pahlavi has been making official, seemingly state visits to Israel since 2000, since about two years ago. And in one of those trips, people ask him if he's really a viable alternative or popular in Iran. And he says, don't just believe what I say. Go and check social media. So these very popular accounts that have. Yes, that have. It's a real connection. And so it's his account. It's also his wife's account. We've seen in the past few years that have really, really been promoted, propped up with advertisement with sort of campaigns. And in one instance, I believe his wife posted a video during the war, a video of a graffiti on a wall in Tehran that said in English that Israel continue bombing. We're with you. As in the voice of the Iranian people with a graffiti in English on a wall in Tehran. And so the Haaretz reporting also seems to have insider sources, unnamed sources who have verified this. I think the disturbance is also the fact that they see Israeli tax money being spent, not just propping up this person, sort of a foreign influence operation, but also the minister, the former intelligence Minister, and now Science Minister Gila Gimlil, who has been promoting Reza Paddlement, has been.

[Eugenia Muzio]

Really.

[Krystal Ball]

Seems to be the point person inside the Israeli government to be pushing him. And these accounts not only promoted Pahlavi, but then turned around and also promoted her online, which seems to have disturbed some people inside the government, basically saying, okay, that's a red line. You can't use taxpayer money to sort of manufacture fake support for yourself online. And the Citizen Lab report has specifically looked at that incident of the bombing of Ebbing Prison, where basically the online disinformation is very much tied to not just offline violence, but an actual war and bombing by an army. And they seem to be two arms of the same entity or very much connected.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yeah, and let's. Let's run through some of that because it's really fascinating. We can put up E4. I think this is a VO. This is. This is what. What people eventually figured out was a. An art. It was AI created. So this is a. This was posted within moments of the attack on Evan prison. And the translation here is, kids, did you hear the sound of the explosion from Evan prison? And a whole bunch of accounts that are in this now known bot network were posting the same things. Well, did you hear that sound over from the prison? And BBC even ran a piece, or somebody ran a piece and it started circulating based on this video of this explosion until people realized it was. It was AI I think it was BBC Persian maybe that figured out it was AI if you can put up E5, this is very similar. Another one. Oh, wow. What a loud explosion sound I just heard from the direction of the prison. Did you hear it too? Kids, did you hear the sound of the explosion from Evan prison? In other.

[Krystal Ball]

Pay attention to the hashtags. Also the second hashtag sounds, Evan must be freed. This is sort of a push to get actual people physically rushing to Evan's prison and getting it free. And it was combined with sort of fake messages that Evan is now free, the doors are open and around it is safe for people to go and rush her. Of course, nobody did, but this was the aim of the campaign.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yes. And there is. And maybe we can add these in post, but there are some others that say they're very actively trying to get people to go to the prison. They say, I think the attack will end now. There is no danger for the prisoners families. Kids, get ready. They just said there's no danger anymore. We can go see our loved ones. Kids, hurry up. Our loved ones have been free. These are all different accounts, we can go see them and free them. So they're telling the public, okay, the bombing is over. Now let's all rush to this prison to try to break people out. And Citizen Lab, to its credit, and also everybody watching this just came to the same conclusion. Like, wait a minute, how do these supposedly normal Iranians in their apartments know that the bombing is over at the prison? Who are they. Who are they in touch with that told them that the bombing is now over? So I think the Iranian people had enough, you know, common sense to not be, you know, tricked by these accounts, which don't seem like they got a whole lot of traction kind of internally. And so they did not rush to the prison and try to, you know, free everybody. But the danger here is it's probably, and I'm curious for your take on this, my sense it's less about they didn't really think they were going to do that. I think it's worth a shot trying if this sparks some sort of protest inside Iran. But what they're really trying to do is trick Western journalists and policy analysts into believing that that's the case and then produce that artificial narrative that then they hope somehow can then devolve into reality on the ground. What's your sense of what the mission here was?

[Krystal Ball]

Absolutely. Let me give you another example, Ryan. They bombed the state TV as also live on air.

[Ryan Grim]

Yes, yes.

[Krystal Ball]

And also hacked the state TV and put out similar messages on state tv, basically saying, don't you remember how bad your regime is? How repres. Don't you remember the protest? Time to rise up. I think one parallel goal, which wasn't achieved by the Israeli campaigns of bombing, was that people will rise up as they have before, and they will overthrow the regime. And I think that's something they probably privately have been selling and that this would be the last sort of the regime is on its last leg, and they just need the final kick to fall. And that also helps bringing the us, this bigger power, into a war. If you show them that you own the Iranian skies, you own Iran, all land, you can bomb them all you want. And the people are about to rise up and take over this regime. That's also been the rhetoric of sort of the radical opposition that we will overthrow this regime. We just need a little bit of help from the outsiders. That's also been the rhetoric of Reza Pahla. We just need a little bit of support. South Africa wouldn't win without foreign support. Mandela wouldn't win without international support. And so there needs to be a little bit of international support, but Iranians will rise themselves. And we saw that the exact opposite. The Israeli bombings first of all created a rally around the flag in Iran. And also not one person came to protest. And this is a government in a regime that's not very popular. We see protests after protest. But when your homes, when your schools, when your roads are being bombed by a foreign entity, that's really not the time to go on the street and protest. And that's exactly what we saw by Iranians. And one other thing the bombing also showed people is whoever wasn't clear eyed about whether Israel can have very targeted surgical attacks only on regime officials. I think now understand that there is no such thing and that you're going to have over a thousand casualties, most of them civilians. Even the military casualties, a lot of them were young conscripts who were just serving a mandatory military service.

[Ryan Grim]

It's like Guatemala in the 1950s. Broadcasting stuff over the speakers. Yes, the revolution's happening.

[Saagar Enjeti]

The revolution's happening. Yeah. Just hoping to convince people that it's true.

[Ryan Grim]

Yep.

[Eugenia Muzio]

Yeah.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Falling a little flat though.

[Ryan Grim]

Yeah. This is such helpful information. Thank you for joining us.

[Krystal Ball]

Thank you for having me.

[Saagar Enjeti]

All right, see you next time.

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[Eugenia Muzio]

All I know is what I've been told and that's a half truth is a whole lie.

[Maggie Freeling]

For almost a decade, the murder of an 18 year old girl from a small town in Graves County, Kentucky went unsolved until a local homemaker, a journalist and a handful of girls came forward with a story.

[Eugenia Muzio]

I'm telling you, we know Quincy killed her.

[Maggie Freeling]

We know a story that law enforcement used to convict six people and that got the citizen investigator on national tv.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Through sheer persistence and nerve, this Kentucky housewife helped give justice to Jessica Curran.

[Maggie Freeling]

My name is Maggie Freeling. I'm a Pulitzer Prize winning journalist producer and I wouldn't be be here if the truth were that easy to find.

[Saagar Enjeti]

I did not know her and I did not kill her or rape or burn or any of that other stuff.

[Ryan Grim]

That y' all said.

[Krystal Ball]

They literally made me say that I.

[Candace Owens]

Took a match and struck and threw it on her. They made me say that I poured gas on her.

[Maggie Freeling]

From Lava for Good. This is Graves County, a show about just how far our legal system will go in order to find someone to blame.

[Saagar Enjeti]

America, y' all better wake the hell up. Bad things happens to good people and small towns.

[Maggie Freeling]

Listen to Graves county in the Bone Valley feed on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts and to binge the entire season ad free. Subscribe to Lava for Good plus on Apple Podcasts.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

I'm Jonathan Goldstein. And on the new season of Heavyweight, I help a centenarian mend a broken heart.

[Saagar Enjeti]

How can a 101-year-old woman fall in love again?

[Jonathan Goldstein]

And I help a man atone for an armed robbery he committed at 14 years old. And so I pointed the gun at him and said, this isn't a joke. And he got down.

[Saagar Enjeti]

And I remember feeling kind of a.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Surge of like, okay, this is power. Plus, my old friend Gregor and his brother try to solve my problems through hypnotism.

[Saagar Enjeti]

We could give you a whole brand new thing where you're like super charming.

[Ryan Grim]

All the time, being more able to.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Look people in the eye, not always hide behind a microphone.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Listen to Heavyweight on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Ryan Grim]

The ugly fight over what Charlie Kirk said or did not say in the days, weeks and months leading up to his assassination is raging on Candace Owens released more information from what she says are three sources who confirmed something important to her. Let's go ahead and roll the clip.

[Candace Owens]

Three people told me off record, two people who have this in a written communication from Charlie, one who is a Turning Point USA donor and I would say very much one of the white knights in this. The very day before Charlie Kirk died, he expressed that he thought he was going to be killed. He told these people, I think they're going to kill me. Okay? He did not express that to me. So I am telling you this based off the testimony of three people. And I am saying this because I hope that these people who I think are good, will be inspired to come forward with that. Again, those conversations I had were off record. I honor that. If I say it's off record, it stays off record. But I'm hoping that watching what I am doing and feeling the energy that is rising across the world for people who want to know what the heck happened on 910 that, you know, they will be brave and they will say, yeah, Charlie did the day before he died, think that he was gonna be killed and maybe tell us who is they? For once and for all, who is they? Who is the they that he thought was. Were going to kill him?

[Ryan Grim]

Well, on the question of who that they is, and Ryan and I will break down a little bit what off the record should mean as well. But the they. Infowars reporter Harrison Smith posted. I'm not gonna name names, but I was told by someone close to Charlie Kirk that Charlie thinks Israel, if he turns against them. That was over the summer. I think it was actually even before that was posted.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Before he was killed.

[Ryan Grim]

Yeah, it was before Charlie Kirk was killed, which probably wouldn't normally bring that up because again, even with Candace in this case, there's no clear sourcing. It's not as though even in new independent media, we do more, I would say, vetting of claims than that. But when you start to see more and more people saying stuff like this, it starts to sound like it actually really was the scuttlebutt in the circles.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Around Charlie Kirk Ryan, which helps explain kind of some of the reaction in real time. Now, just. I just want to be totally clear here. Let's say that it's true that Charlie Kirk did think that. That does not lead logically then to the fact, to the claim that they did it. Right, right. Like those are kind of disconnected things.

[Ryan Grim]

Right.

[Saagar Enjeti]

But. But it's important for understanding his legacy and the. And the moment that we're in what.

[Ryan Grim]

Was happening behind the scenes. Right. And I just. This is. So this is one of Charlie's close friends, Andrew Colvett, who's been continuing to hold down the fort over at the Charlie Kirk show and talking a lot about trying to debunk some rumors and confirm other claims. He went through these text messages that Candace Owens released that showed Charlie Kirk basically doing the I've had it up to here with these conservative Zionists argument. He didn't say it that way, but you can see pretty clearly from the text that Candace released Which people were immediately saying, there's no way these are real. There's no way these are real. Showing Kirk's exasperation, utter exasperation with being told what he can and cannot say about Israel. These are within 48 hours of him being assassinated.

[Saagar Enjeti]

So let's roll E8 to address some of the things that have been going around on public, namely about a text, a group text chain that has been made known and released by Candace Owens. And I just want to address it head on, because, you know, that was a text grab, a screen grab that I had shared with people. So it. It is authentic.

[Candace Owens]

Take a look. So Charlie writes in the group chat, just lost another huge Jewish donor. Two million a year because we won't cancel Tucker. I'm thinking of inviting Candace. Somebody writes, ugh. Charlie writes, jewish donors play into all of the stereotypes. I cannot and will not be bullied like this, leaving me no choice but to leave the pro Israel cause. Then somebody writes, a donor writes, please do not invite Candace. That might feel good short term, but it's not good long term, in my opinion. Like all groups, you're going to get a wide variety of opinions. That nasty free will thing that God bestowed on us makes life frustrating at times. The dust settles a bit, maybe. So Again, this is 48 hours before Charlie was assassinated. He was very clear and he was very explicit.

[Ryan Grim]

So the Candace part came first. And then Colvette confirmed, as you saw in that clip, those were indeed real text messages. He said that's a screenshot, actually, that he had shared.

[Saagar Enjeti]

And so these things 24 hours before he was killed.

[Ryan Grim]

Roughly within 48. Yeah. So clearly these things are pinging around because there were a lot of conversations in group chats. And it's so ugly to even have to talk about this because Charlie Kirk is not here to explain. I mean, in group chats, there's sarcasm. It's all virtual. It's sarcasm. You say different things. It's easy to imagine how things can get taken out of context. I would say that's a pretty clear statement from Charlie Kirk. But he's obviously not here to explain. He did have that long interview with Megyn Kelly where he put a lot of this in his own words. You don't even need to be taking things from. From group chats necessarily, to know that he was deeply, deeply exasperated. And it seems that that donor reference is to Robert Shulman, who the reporting from Max Blumenthal has been confirmed about him publicly revoking that money from Turning Point usa falling out with Charlie who considered him or they considered one another to be very close, almost a mentor, mentee relationship. So this was getting. This was clearly getting very nasty.

[Saagar Enjeti]

And it shows the dynamic that we've seen over and over where he says. He says, quote, just lost another huge Jewish donor, $2 million in that. Shulman. $2 million a year. Because we won't cancel Tucker. I'm thinking of inviting Candace. That's the dynamic that we see so often. Megyn Kelly's betraying a little bit of it lately where it's like, if you. And she'll say this out loud, if you try to tell me what I can and can't do, I'm going to go the opposite direction. Right. You don't want me to have Tucker. Oh, yeah. How about Candace, too? Yeah. Just. Just to, like, draw boundaries, be like, no, this is. This is my conference. This is my organization. I'm going to make the decisions. And also I'm going to make the decisions. And this is what he was saying to Netanyahu and others. I'm going to make decisions that I actually think are better for Israel. Like, he thought it was better for Israel.

[Ryan Grim]

Yeah.

[Saagar Enjeti]

To have this aired out in public, to sharpen your counterpoints against the narratives that exist rather than try to suppress them and pretend they don't exist.

[Ryan Grim]

And that is what he said. He tried to explain to Netanyahu in the letter. He said the suppression is like absolute. The appearance of speech suppression, the existence of speech suppression is bad for you.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Right, right. You're not going to win this way, was his argument. And so, yeah, it has been fascinating to see this be the debate rather than what I thought right afterwards when they found out that the alleged shooter's partner is a trans person. Like, oh, well, we're going to get a month or six weeks. Months. Months. Months of like, you know, trans hate. And instead, this has been more the conversation.

[Ryan Grim]

It's so ugly. I mean, it's just the amount of. I mean, if you think about the amount of digital evidence of your thought process that you leave now in 2025, if you're somebody who works in politics and you're working this stuff out in. He was clearly trying to keep everybody happy. I think that's the big takeaway is that he was trying to tell supporters of Israel he was still on their side and give them tough love. But then he was also expressing privately how incredibly exasperated he was by all of this. He did it publicly, too, again, on the Megyn Kelly interview. So it just.

[Eugenia Muzio]

Right.

[Saagar Enjeti]

And you can imagine a Guy who made his entire career starting from when he's like 18 about debate and all of these. He has a 150 million dollar organization that people are funding based on his career as somebody who wants to air different sides.

[Ryan Grim]

Right, Right.

[Saagar Enjeti]

It'd be one thing if he ran APAC and invited Tucker Carlson to the conference.

[Ryan Grim]

Right, Right.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Then I think if you're an APAC donor, you're like, no, absolutely not.

[Ryan Grim]

Get out of here.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Like he does not tow our line.

[Ryan Grim]

Right.

[Saagar Enjeti]

And, and that's fine. You're an advocacy organization for.

[Ryan Grim]

Apac.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Like no Tucker Carlson. Totally fair.

[Ryan Grim]

Yeah.

[Saagar Enjeti]

But Turning Point USA is it's this, it's, it's built on the idea of debate. And so the idea that you're, that you can't have this debate which is tearing the conservative movement apart is just anathema to his very being. And then as he explained on Megyn Kelly, to then layer on top of that a personal insult that you actually are anti Semitic.

[Ryan Grim]

Right.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Is was clearly driving him nuts despite.

[Ryan Grim]

All the time he has spent advocating for Israel. I mean it's just the fact that people are still right now treating his feelings like they were in some way illegitimate or flirting with anti Semitism is, It's so, so disgusting and it's just ugly again that his sort of digital footprint is being torn apart like this. It was. I mean he put this stuff pretty clearly in public at the time too. But sad, sad, sad.

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[Eugenia Muzio]

All I know is what I've been told and that's a half truth to is a whole lie.

[Maggie Freeling]

For almost a decade, the murder of an 18 year old girl from a small town in Graves County, Kentucky went unsolved until a local homemaker, a journalist and a handful of girls came forward with a story.

[Eugenia Muzio]

I'm telling you, we know Quincy killed her.

[Maggie Freeling]

We know a story that law enforcement used to convict six people and that got the citizen investigator on national tv.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Through sheer persistence and nerve, this Kentucky housewife helped give justice to Jessica Curran.

[Maggie Freeling]

My name is Maggie Freeling. I'm a Pulitzer Prize winning journalist producer, and I wouldn't be here if the truth were that easy to find.

[Saagar Enjeti]

I did not know her and I did not kill her or rape or burn or any of that other stuff.

[Ryan Grim]

That y' all said.

[Krystal Ball]

They literally made me say that I.

[Candace Owens]

Took a match and struck and threw it on her.

[Saagar Enjeti]

They made me say that I poured.

[Candace Owens]

Gas on her.

[Maggie Freeling]

From Lava For Good. This is Graves County, a show about just how far our legal system will go in order to find someone to blame.

[Saagar Enjeti]

America, y' all better wake the hell up. Bad things happens to good people and small towns.

[Maggie Freeling]

Listen to Graves county in the Bone Valley feed on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts and to binge the entire season ad free. Subscribe to Lava for Good plus on Apple Podcasts.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

I'm Jonathan Goldstein, and on the new season of Heavyweight, I help a centenarian mend a broken heart.

[Saagar Enjeti]

How can a 101 year old woman fall in love again?

[Jonathan Goldstein]

And I help a man atone for an armed robbery he committed at 14 years old. And so I pointed the gun at him and said, this isn't a joke. And he got down.

[Saagar Enjeti]

And I remember feeling kind of a.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Surge of like, okay, this is power. Plus. My old friend Gregor and his brother tried to solve my problems through hypnotism.

[Saagar Enjeti]

We could give you a whole brand new thing where you're like super charming.

[Ryan Grim]

All the time, being more able to.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Look people in the eye, not always hide behind a microphone.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Listen to heavyweight on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Saagar Enjeti]

We have a new report over at Dropsite News that finds that David Frum, Douglas Murray, Seth Mandel, and Pamela Gross, who is a CNN producer, all in various ways, were working directly with the Israeli ambassador to the United nations while also engaging journalistically with that same ambassador from in particular, while serving as an editor at the Atlantic and a writer at the Atlantic, where he still is, sent an email two days apart to Ron Proser, who is the Israeli ambassador one, asking him, and we can put this element up on the screen here. Can I interview you for short, profile in the Atlantic about what it's like to be Israeli ambassador at UN that is a perfectly normal email for a journalist to send to a subject or a source. I'd like to write a profile for you for the Atlantic, the journalistic news outlet where I write. Would you be willing to participate in this interview? Wonderful stuff. Less usual is the separate email that he sent. We can put this one up on the screen. This is. I can't even believe it. This is from saying that it's believable though, saying that he and Seth Mandel. A lot going on here. You might want to pause it and read this if you want. But that he and Seth Mandel, who writes for Commentary, have been working on the draft for a speech for the Israeli ambassador. He says this version was drafted by Seth Mandel of Commentary, with whom I've been working. The top half is identical to what you read previously. The bottom half is much less pointed about US Policy. Is this more in line with your thinking? That's July 31, 2014. This is right after the 2014 Gaza war. And so it has. Then he concludes a couple different versions of the speech. Later, Proser responds, you can put this next element up there. Thank you, David. I will look at it and get back to you. So the target audience here is UN Security Council. You can look and see whether or not you think Fromm's speech writing along with Mandel's was up to snuff. From, as you may or may not know, was a speechwriter for George W. Bush before becoming the kind of anti Trump resistance guy. He famously or infamously, depending on your perspective, although there's not many who take the former anymore. Came up with the phrase axis of evil. That's what he was known for, axis of evil, which somehow included Iran, Iraq and North Korea, none of which had anything to do with each other.

[Ryan Grim]

Our last segment to the point of manufacturing consent for the Iraq War, right?

[Saagar Enjeti]

And then the Iraq war brought in a Shia majority that linked up the country with Iran. But whatever, talk about it. So that's him. We've got also got Mr. Doug Murray, Douglas Murray. He writes to Ron Prosser as well. Roughly, like actually the same day they're competing to write this speech. Very good to speak earlier. I am passing in here my first draft ideas. It's probably slightly long and it's possible I have put in some more diplomatic things than needed, but I think I have got in all the points discussed to be worked on. Doubtless. Can we do this in a British accent? We should. Right. But let me know what your thoughts are and I will give all the time I can to helping to get it right. All very best wishes as ever, Douglas. Ron Proser, speech draft.

[Ryan Grim]

I don't think I've ever heard you do a British accent.

[Saagar Enjeti]

I don't think I could actually do a good one.

[Ryan Grim]

I'm sort of grateful that you have a good one.

[Saagar Enjeti]

You could do a very good one. So, Murray, it gets worse. Like, okay, this is pretty bad. Journalists who are the one hand covering Israel, Palestine, there's a giant war that just happened. At the same time they're secretly writing drafts of speeches for the Israeli ambassador. That's pretty bad.

[Ryan Grim]

And were they taking money for it? Do we know?

[Saagar Enjeti]

I highly doubt it.

[Eugenia Muzio]

Okay.

[Ryan Grim]

Volunteer.

[Saagar Enjeti]

I would suspect that this is volunteer work. We could find out, but like, Fromm doesn't need the money. I don't know about Murray. This feels more like work of conscience.

[Ryan Grim]

Yes.

[Saagar Enjeti]

So this is from the drop side article. At the time, Murray was also providing other services in support of Israel and its military efforts. In November of that year, he wrote to Proser to inform him that he had hosted an event that raised over £1 million for an organization called the association for the well Being of Israeli Soldiers. That organization had been created to provide funds, quote, directly to IDF soldiers and IDF units. Created in 1942, before the creation by David Ben Gurion. In 2015, Awis merged with another organization now called the association for Israel's Soldiers. And so Douglas Murray wrote to him about how happy he was, about how well the fundraiser had gone, how much money that they had been able to raise for the Israeli military. Now, Murray has never made a secret of his support for Israel, but I don't think he's ever mentioned that. That is up to and including writing speeches and raising money for the military. We can get into Pamela Gross in a moment and Seth Bendel, but what was your reaction as you were reading through some of this stuff? And do we have the. Have you been. We have that start. Have you been to the Crossing Points? No. When were you last there at all? I've never been. You've never been? Well, am I not allowed to talk about it now?

[Ryan Grim]

You've never been. You know, these are people who are critical of a lot of media ethics when it comes to coverage of Israel. And that's what I think is particularly frustrating to me. It's. This is a fairly easy thing to disclose. And actually if you were, I don't.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Know how easy that would be.

[Ryan Grim]

But if you're Honest about it in the profile. Well, in the profile, yeah. Is another question. But people know that you're.

[Saagar Enjeti]

He wrote that profile. That wasn't just an idea like he wrote and published a glowing profile.

[Ryan Grim]

I have it up on my browser right now. I've checked Wayback Machine and the archive. There's absolutely no disclosure in it, not even now. So to do that if you're David Frum and not disclose that you helped with the speech is completely bananas. And for both of them, they are openly massive supporters of Israel. That's like. To go further as somebody who's in the media and actually work on a draft of a government speech and not disclose it and then ever lecture anybody else about journalistic ethics and coverage of Israel is I just think that is tough to. None of this is surprising. It's just a tough pill to swallow. And I would imagine the Atlantic, though, it's edited by former IDF soldier right.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Now, Jeffrey Goldberg, prison guard. Prison guard, yeah. Right. Who we called Goldberg, left a voicemail, left a text message he did not get back from.

[Ryan Grim]

Nobody gave you a comment on this?

[Saagar Enjeti]

From referred to questions to the Atlantic's PR department, which has not gotten back to us. Adam Johnson pointed out on Twitter that the same day. No, maybe it was a week later. Oh, no, it was the same day. A week before this. From had accused the New York Times of putting a fake photo of bloodied Palestinians on their news coverage of. Of the Gaza war. A week later, the same day that he was writing the Israeli ambassador a draft of sending him a draft of the speech, he apologized. These images do appear authentic, he said, and I should not have cast doubt on them. I apologize especially to Sergey Ponomarev of the New York Times, whose work I impugned. So he apologized to the photographer, not to these bloodied subjects of the photograph whose suffering he called into doubt. Still from this is the New York Times still from defending his initial skepticism, arguing that, quote, there is a long history in the Middle east of the use of faked or misattributed photographs as tools of propaganda, using that old line of Isn't it interesting that I got fooled by this? Do you want to do the Pamela Gross ones, too? Or you want anything else you want to add to that before we go to Mandel? And Mandel is a hardcore supporter, as they.

[Ryan Grim]

Okay, yeah.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Again, finding Mandel in the proser's emails was not very surprising.

[Ryan Grim]

I don't think any of it's particularly, like, shocking, but it is, I guess, surprising just from the perspective that Again, like, as an opinion journalist. They're opinion journalists. They don't pretend to be like sort of Shula, the reporters who are just. Although sometimes I think the rhetoric goes in that direction because Murray famously was lecturing Dave Smith for not going to Israel, which was a question of ethics. He was saying, as somebody who talks about this, kind of implying that Smith was acting in the capacity of a journalist or media person, then you should go to the place that you're talking about. So as opinion journalist, I feel like it's really. And I don't know if you've dealt with this before, but it's like a really. It's easy to be like, well, I'm open about what I think about this, so, oh, of course I can take this money and do this thing. But like, I learned from Tim Carney when I was young, he has like a full disclosure on medium every year of places that he takes money from. I do the same thing. If it's like a conservative group that you give a speech for, helping the government, that's one thing. And most people don't even disclose that, even though I think they should. But that's one thing. Helping the fucking government of another country.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Which government? That's who you're covering.

[Ryan Grim]

Holy shit.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yeah. You can't do that.

[Ryan Grim]

That is like, even that. Even by the standards of, like, where journalism and opinion journalism, that is surprising.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yes. And everybody has seen the Douglas Murray clip and his debate with Dave Smith on Joe Rogan where he says, you haven't been talking about the crossings. This puts that whole thing in a whole new light, because Douglas Murray then says, I have a journalistic rule that I do not talk about a place even in passing unless I have visited it. That's his journalistic rule. A much more basic journalistic rule is that you avoid conflicts of interest and that if some exist, you disclose them. So when Murray's talking about having been to these crossings, he went with the idf. He put on a jacket that said press.

[Ryan Grim]

Yes.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Which suggests that you are then baked in the ethics of that. Of that craft, which means that you are objective and independent. If the IDF wants to send an IDF spokesperson to the crossing, they can do that. He also had himself photographed in the chair where Yahya Sinwar was killed wearing his press jacket. He did not disclose that he had raised money for the IDF and that he had written speeches. And that's just what we know about.

[Ryan Grim]

This is activism, by the way, like, raising money for the IDF is you're an activist on behalf of the Cause and then helping the government. I mean, that actually, even if it's volunteer, makes you sort of an agent of the government.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Right. So I would say you don't actually get to claim that you journalistically followed a journalistic rule. That's not journalism.

[Ryan Grim]

Right.

[Saagar Enjeti]

That. That. That is a thing that you're doing. It is collaboration with the Israeli government. Like, if you are drafting speeches for the ambassador, raising money for them, and then getting, you know, taken on escorted trips to the crossings, you don't get to then denounce somebody else who hasn't done the same thing. Like, he was trying to say that he is a superior journalist and his opinions should be taken more seriously because he had been to this crossing. But now we know the full context of what brought him to that crossing. Secretly doing work for the government and then going escorted by the government. Just because you put on a flak jacket that says press doesn't make you press.

[Ryan Grim]

Right.

[Saagar Enjeti]

So, yes. Was he physically there? Yes. Should we credit anything that he says? No.

[Ryan Grim]

Right.

[Saagar Enjeti]

We can put up F6. So Pamela Gross is an interesting character. She's no longer with cnn, but she was a CNN book or producer. And also, let's do our disclosure here. Married to Jimmy Finkelstein, who used to be the owner of the Hill, and the Hill owned Rising while Emily and I were co hosts on Rising. So Jimmy was. We weren't getting paychecks because we were independent contractors, but he was signing our checks.

[Ryan Grim]

He was trying to hire us, too.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Trying to hire us. And then he stole the thing before that even happened one way or the other. And so, Pamela Gross. So, dear Ambassador, so wonderful to see you this fourth of July. Thank you for joining us. Clearly, Iron Dome is doing the trick and saving lives. Please, dear friend, let's get it finished. So she then enters into this long conversation we can put up F7 as well with Ron Proser about how she's going to raise money for the Iron Dome. He writes, dear Pamela, thank you and Jimmy for a magical evening. You both are the perfect hosts. You and Jimmy are true assets to the state of Israel, which if you're a journalist, whether you're Israeli or American, an Israeli journalist would not want to hear that from an Israeli ambassador. You do not want to be told as a journalist that you are a, quote, true asset to the state of Israel.

[Ryan Grim]

You really don't.

[Saagar Enjeti]

That's not what you want to hear. No, no, no. I'm an objective journalist here, so it's okay. So maybe she's just Jimmy Finkelstein's wife and, like, has some fake job at cnn. No, not at all. In the emails. Go read the full story if you want. All of Pamela's, like, crazy emails back and forth with Ron proser here. But F10, this is an email where she is reaching out to book him, which is her job on cnn.

[Ryan Grim]

Makes it easier, actually, to discuss.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Right? Yeah. I mean, hey, I'm raising money for your military.

[Ryan Grim]

Yeah, Come on the show.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Come on the show. It's just. It's too much. And it's one of these stories to me that manages to both be utterly shocking and deeply unsurprising at the exact same time. Like, it really is in the sweet spot of hitting both of those emotions.

[Ryan Grim]

Right.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Like, I'm still.

[Ryan Grim]

I'm.

[Saagar Enjeti]

I'm shocked at this and yet utterly unsurprised.

[Ryan Grim]

Yeah, it's. It's shocking and not shocking simultaneously. No, I mean, again, maybe in post.

[Saagar Enjeti]

We'Ll put a little. Have you been. Clip. You've never been.

[Ryan Grim]

This is like. This is one of the biggest problems in journalism right now. Like, you are free. Most journalists cannot truly shelve their opinions. I know, like, a few who genuinely can do it. Maybe they don't have. Maybe they're just, like, politically ambivalent. They definitely don't care one direction or the other. It's just so few people that can actually do that. And yet most journalists still pretend that that's what they're doing. And even if you're in the opinion side, like from and Murray and Fine, but actually acting or gross, who. I guess she wasn't on the opinion side. She was just doing booking for cnn. But, you know, that is. It's just so obviously over the line. Like, so obviously over the line. And the audacity then to criticize other people's journalistic ethics tells you. Kind of tells you a lot.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yeah. Truly incredible. That's why I like this show. Like, we've got our opinions. I think my opinions are facts.

[Eugenia Muzio]

Yes.

[Saagar Enjeti]

But I think they're correct. But you know where I am. But I'm not writing speeches for anybody.

[Ryan Grim]

No.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Also, where do these guys get the time? Seriously, My first response was, no, I don't have time to write your speech. You write a speech. Don't you have a whole office?

[Ryan Grim]

Why were Fromm and Murray both drafting the same speech? I don't understand that. Were they having them compete against each other? Was he just seeking everyone's advice?

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yeah. So one thing that politicians do, and they do this a lot with donors, but they'll do it too. With journalists is pretend that they're interested in their ideas. Like, what do you think the effect of the economy is going to be on the midterms? And then the journalist or the donor or whoever they're talking to feels valued. Like the thing that they're saying, wow, I'm speaking to this powerful person. And so it changes the power dynamic totally. So you can imagine this is just on steroids.

[Ryan Grim]

Yeah.

[Eugenia Muzio]

Yep.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Where prose was like, you guys are just such brilliant wordsmiths. Could you draft some speeches for me? But that's when it really crosses the line. And they both should have been like, well, no, of course I can't do that unless I'm happy to have a dinner with you. And we can talk about how awful Hamas is and how the world is all against Israel. Yeah, but we're not. But I'm not gonna draft a speech for you. Like, that's, that's, that's crossing lines that even I'm not willing to do.

[Ryan Grim]

Well, at the very least, I mean, so again, like, you shouldn't do it, period. If you're going to do it, you should then tell your audience and your readers that you did it.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yeah. And then let people say, okay, you know what, this guy wrote speeches for the ambassador that he's now profiling. But I know that he's supportive of Israel. And so I already knew that anyway. So I'm going to read the profile anyway. And yeah, then you've got the full knowledge of. It would have been even funnier if he was like, the main thing people say about Proser is his rhetorical flair and his speech making ability is unparalleled, almost reminiscent of some of George W. Bush's best speeches.

[Ryan Grim]

Positively Frumian.

[Saagar Enjeti]

People call him Frumian.

[Ryan Grim]

Yes. Many people are saying, oh, goodness. All right, Ryan, amazing, amazing reporting. Thank you there. Now we should mention before we wrap for the day that Donald Trump has, since we started taping, actually put out a truth social post calling for Brandon Johnson and Governor J.B. pritzker, two Democrats, obviously, in Illinois to, quote, be in jail for failing to protect ICE officers. As a guy on a barstool, that's one thing. As the President of the United States, that is a very different thing that he. This is the man with the powers of law enforcement saying that Brandon Johnson and J.B. pritzker should be in jail for, quote, failing to protect ICE officers.

[Saagar Enjeti]

So also, can we poke at the logic train there for a minute? According to Trump, Chicago police are incapable of protecting the citizens of Chicago, which necessitates sending in the National Guard, all these federal office federal agents. So now Trump wants them to protect the citizens of Chicago and also all these helpless federal agents that he's throwing into Chicago. Isn't the whole purpose of sending in the feds that they're gonna protect the Chicago police, who, he said, just can't handle it? Also, ICE is out here, has been out here making a bunch of basically Prank calls to 911. Have you seen this reporting?

[Ryan Grim]

No, not yet.

[Saagar Enjeti]

That they keep calling 911 saying somebody's scaling this fence, somebody's doing this and that. And then they look at body cam footage and same with the woman that they arrested and accused of ramming them. Turned out it was the other way around. Like, ICE keeps making stuff up. And so I think at some level, the Chicago police are, like, fed up with these clowns.

[Ryan Grim]

Also worth noting, the politics of this. Donald Trump is transforming JB Pritzker, of all people, into a resistance hero. The more he. He talks about it like this, the more that he talks about the situation like this. He's giving JB Pritzker. Maybe he's actually trying to do it because he understands that J.B. pritzker is a poor resistance hero for Dems. I don't think it's that 4D chess. I think he just is saying things like, JB Pritzker should be in jail. I can't fathom what the. Even what the charge that they cook up would look like in this case. Failing to protect ICE as governor and as mayor. I don't even know what that would potentially be. I can't think of it. Maybe we'll ask Grok, but. Yeah, well, that's the thing.

[Saagar Enjeti]

I will block you if you do that. This is a warning to everybody following me.

[Ryan Grim]

If you ask dumb questions to Grok.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Ask stupid questions to Grok underneath my posts, you're blocked.

[Ryan Grim]

You're blocked, you're blocked. Well, that happened while we were taping. Trump called for them to be imprisoned. So I'm sure Sagar and Krystal will have more on the story tomorrow. But we wanted to make sure to bring everyone, everyone that news as soon as we could because, boy, is it wild. Thank you so much for tuning in. Thank you for supporting us [e-mail] Also, if you can't get a premium sub for liking commenting subscribing on YouTube, wherever you're getting your podcasts, it helps us so much. We appreciate it. Makes that second half of the Friday show, by the way, if you're a premium sub possible. We're having a lot of fun on those.

[Saagar Enjeti]

You don't want to miss that. We'll probably talk about Janet Mills on Friday. She's apparently getting into the main election. If she won, if she beat Susan Collins, she'd be a 79 year old freshman senator.

[Ryan Grim]

Good Lord. Good Lord.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Democrats have maybe finally cracked the code.

[Ryan Grim]

Maybe we'll cover Katie Porter on Friday too.

[Saagar Enjeti]

The senators were too young when they were getting sworn in with the Democrats in inexperienced.

[Ryan Grim]

Yeah, right.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Well, see you later.

[Ryan Grim]

We'll see everyone on Friday. Have a great day.

[Maggie Freeling]

The murder of an 18 year old girl in Graves County, Kentucky went unsolved for years until a local housewife, a journalist and a handful of girls came.

[Candace Owens]

Forward with a story.

[Saagar Enjeti]

America, y' all better wake the hell up. Bad things happens to good people and small towns.

[Maggie Freeling]

Listen to Graves county on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. And to binge the entire season ad free. Subscribe to Lava for Good plus on Apple Podcasts.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Jonathan Goldstein I'm Jonathan Goldstein and on the new season of Heavyweight. And so I pointed the gun at him and said, this isn't a joke. A man who robbed a bank when he was 14 years old and a centenarian rediscovers a love lost 80 years ago.

[Saagar Enjeti]

How can 101-year-old woman fall in love again?

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Listen to heavyweight on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Hey, I'm Jay Shetty, host of the on purpose podcast. I had the incredible opportunity to sit down with the one, the only cardi b my marriage.

[Krystal Ball]

I felt the love dying. I was crying every day. I fell in the deepest depression that I had ever had. This was not given to me. I worked my ass off for me.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Listen to On Purpose with Jay Shetty.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

On the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Krystal Ball]

This is an I heart podcast.