Saagar Enjeti (2:16)

We need your help to build the future of independent news media and we hope to see you@breaking points.com Good morning everybody. Happy Monday. Have an amazing show for everybody today. What we have Crystal.

Krystal Ball (2:28)

Indeed we do. A group of centrist Dems caved so there is a shutdown deal. We will get to all of that. Ro Khanna is also going to join us. He is calling for Chuck Schumer to resign over this. Just coming right out and saying it. So going to get his thoughts on all of this. There's also a bunch of weird policy proposals coming out for the Trump administration. We're going to cover one of them today, which is 50 year mortgages. So just take on more debt, pay more to the bank for longer. That's their solution to the housing houses.

Saagar Enjeti (2:55)

You own nothing and be happy.

Krystal Ball (2:56)

Yes, own nothing and be happy indeed. We're also digging into the way that data centers factored into last week's elections and are becoming an increasingly potent issue in terms of our politics. Something that we've had our eye on for a little while now. Sam Altman crashing out and appears to be asking us, the U.S. taxpayer to backstop his potential losses. So that's great. One Biden administration knew about Israel's war crimes and did nothing about it, new report reveals. And we have an author of a new book on the trillion dollar war machine. So a lot of relevant things to get into with him.

Saagar Enjeti (3:31)

Yeah, that's right. I'm excited for all of that. We are going to have Ro Khanna join us a little bit here on the show to give us his reaction to the shutdown deal, which we're very excited. Thank you to everybody who's been signing up. Break Breaking Points.com if you can help us out, become a premium subscriber. You saw our election coverage there with Soran Mamdani and all of our excellent live stream that we put out there. And of course it does cost money to send people out into the field but we think it really adds something for all of you. So breakingpoints.com if you are able to help us out. If you can't, no worries, please just go ahead, hit subscribe to our YouTube channel and if you're listening to this on a podcast, send the episode to a friend. It really helps the show grow. But let's go ahead and start with the shutdown. As Crystal said so late last night, some major movement in the United States Senate. Let's go and put this up here on the screen. We're just gonna read some of the details here of how the shutdown deal basically came to pass. The TLDR of the whole thing is this is a full blown cave from the Democrats and eight so called centrist moderates or whatever joined Republicans in advancing the government deal, the CR deal which was on the table from the House of Representatives. There are two important caveats to that The Democrats say that what they got in exchange for voting for government funding was one, a vote at some point in the future, in December, in December on the ACA subsidies. Those healthcare subsidies put a pin in that cause we will return a little bit to the healthcare discussion. And two, is a reversal of government firing, so called RIFS reduction in force from October 1, 2025 forward to January 31, 2026. So basically like a three month reprieve from any firing of federal government employees. Not previous federal government employees, just immediate federal government employees. That's it. That's basically all they got in exchange. And to be very, very clear, that deal was on the table from the very beginning. So John Thune, the Senate Majority leader from the beginning was like, look, Dems, I'll give you guys a vote if you want in a few weeks. And from the beginning they all said, no, that's not enough. We need the actual health care subsidies. We need to change the health care system. We need, you know, RIFT stuff. We just came off this election actually it looked like the Democrats are going to become even more emboldened, but instead, overnight, I personally think what happened is they got spooked from the airlines and from snap. I think that the airline in particular, I mean, I was telling the crew, tens of billions of dollars per day in productivity. Newark Airport yesterday was an absolute nightmare. This today, if the shutdown continues, they're saying there'll be a 20% reduction in air traffic control, Thanksgiving travel and all of that. At that point, you're going to have to bail out the airlines. Considering the number of losses that they would take, it would just basically bring it to a complete halt of air traffic in this entire country. So they decided they would, you know, basically their bluff was called and they decided to cave and to give. And I think SNAP was part of that as well. Trump was like, listen, I'll just, you know, hold up the SNAP benefits. And the Supreme Court said that he could. And so in the interim, you know, 42 million people or so going into the holidays would have lost their SNAP benefits. Air traffic would have come to zero. Even though I do eventually think most of that chaos would have been blamed on the Republicans. These Democrats were like, no, we just, we can't deal with that.

Krystal Ball (6:36)

Yeah, I think, I think the SNAP thing was big, you know, very Israeli coded. Trump using food as a weapon of war here basically against the Democrats and for these eight losers, basically it worked. I mean, it is utterly pathetic. It is utterly pathetic that as you said, Sager, they could have done this on day one. This, quote, unquote deal was on the table. You caused all of this pain and suffering now for nothing. You completely bended, completely caved, demonstrated to the American people that you will not stand on business, on anything. And at such a perplexing moment, like, they just secured some of the most impressive election results that we've seen. You know, we're going to cover the massive swing in Georgia, obviously, Virginia, obviously New Jersey. Any state that you look at, there was a shift to the left, a absolute reckoning for the Republicans. Trump knew internally he was freaking out about the shutdown and realized this was a major problem for him. And that's the time that you decide to cave, when it's never been more clear that you were winning the debate. It's never been more clear, made more obvious to the American people, that you were the ones that were fighting for health care. But, no, that's the moment when you're apparently at your strongest, based on the electoral results last week, to say, you know what? We're gonna take the deal that was available literally on day one. It is so utterly pathetic. These people never fight for anything. Many of them have been looking for a way to cave from the beginning, by the way. And let's just read off the names of who it was that voted for this. It's also noteworthy you who they are politically, because it shows you they know the Democratic base is gonna be fucking fury. They're already furious. And not just like, lefties. Not even just sort of like the rad libs. I'm talking, like, Matt Iglesias being like, what are you guys doing? Like, what are you thinking about here near Tandon, Pretty unified front of people saying, this makes absolutely no sense. So here are the ones who voted yes. Catherine Cortez, master of Nevada, Dick Durbin, who's the number two in the Senate. John Fetterman, because, of course, Maggie Hassan, Tim Kaine, Jackie Rosen, and Jeanne Shahid. You know, the only one of them that I could kind of be like, I kind of see it, is Tim Kaine, because Virginia is. You know, he's representing so many federal government workers. But what's noteworthy about all of those people, none of them is up for reelection right now. None of them. They're either retiring or they're not up until 2028 or even 2030. Those. And the other thing to note about that is, number one, that tells you they know the politics of this are absolutely trash for them. They know they could be facing primary challenges from their left for caving to the Republicans, caving to Trump in this moment. That's number one. Number two, it shows you how organized this was. So Chuck Schumer, sorry, Angus King was the other one who's technically an independent from Maine. But in any case, Chuck Schumer voted no on this and put out a video. We can show you some of it saying, that's why I'm voting no, blah, blah, blah. There's reporting from David Dayen over at the American Prospect, one of his writers, that Schumer, of course, was involved in making this deal, cutting this deal from the beginning. So don't be fooled by the fact that he personally didn't vote for it. Schumer's hands are all over this thing. Which is exactly why. And we'll get this from Ro Khanna when he joins us, which is exactly why Ro Khanna and by the way, Mark Pocan as well, are saying, dude, you're not made for this moment. You gotta step aside. Someone who understands the moment that we're living through, someone who is actually willing and able to fight for something as basic as health care, they need to take the reins. So those are the things to take note of with regard to who specifically it is that voted for this thing. Let's go ahead and take a listen to. Jeanne Shaheen was one of the lead negotiators here of the Cave. Let's go ahead and take a listen to how she justified this. This was the only deal on the table. It was our best chance to reopen the government and immediately begin negotiations to exp extend the ACA tax credits that tens of millions of Americans rely on.

Saagar Enjeti (10:32)

To keep costs down.

Krystal Ball (10:34)

Yep, it was the only deal on the table. And so basically, Republicans were like, you know, normally in these things, there's some meetings, people are. No, there was none of that. And so ultimately, they found the Republican threat to just keep the government closed indefinitely. They found that credible and decided that even though they were getting literally nothing for their votes, for their capitulation, they were gonna go ahead and cave. And just on this idea, okay, there's gonna be a vote in December. They pinky promise. I mean, first of all, you can't trust these people. But second of all, let's say the vote probably, you know, let's say it happens that there's no guarantee it's even gonna be brought up in the House. You get some show vote in the Senate. Oh, congratulations, way to go. Like this is going. They know that there is zero percent chance that that show vote that they're Getting in December, if that even happens, is gonna lead to any sort of healthcare resolution for the American people.

Saagar Enjeti (11:28)

It's a joke, obviously. And I can just pretty much tell you no Republican leader or previous shutdown would have ever caved on these circumstances. They never would have. Because if you come off of successful elections, you just got a lot of your whole theory ratified about how energized people are then. I mean, look, you are playing with people's lives and I don't wanna put that to the side. Federal government employees got some 40 days or whatever without a paycheck. You had the snap benefits, air traffic control, the stock market. Things were not good. And it actually looked like things were gonna go into shambles over the next couple of weeks. All that said, that's kind of the whole point of pursuing a government shutdown or a debt ceiling type of cliff, which many Republicans have done in the past specifically to force what they want. I also wanna just double click on what you said where there has been this theory that the Democratic leadership did not endorse a deal. First of all, Dick Durbin, who's literal number two, who is retiring, voted for the deal. But two, the way that it's just always works is the Senate is the king of the limited hangout where you take the moderator, whatever, and silently, 10 other people will agree. They'll say, look, I won't vote for this, but you do it because you're not up for reelection. You take all this shit or whatever from the base and in the interim, we will be cosplaying or whatever against the deal, but we secretly support you. I have been told that this is the way the stock trading ban works. There's always one or two guys that come out forcefully against it and silently. It's like 99% of them who are like, yeah, thank you. Please, Rick, keep fighting against this. Same thing works in the House. You let your bomb throwers work inside the system. And the people more in the precarity, even though they agree with the more unpopular policy, they won't technically vote for it. So this is much more organized and a lot of people are thinking Senator Schumer is trying to hang his hat on the fact that he voted no. Here's what he had to say.

NBC News Announcer (13:17)

For months and months, Democrats have been fighting to get the Senate to address.

Saagar Enjeti (13:22)

The health care crisis.

NBC News Announcer (13:24)

This bill does nothing to ensure that.

Saagar Enjeti (13:27)

That crisis is addressed. I am voting no and I will keep fighting. Again, let me explain a little bit more, Washington Inside politics is great. Leaders, what they do is you have ironclad control of your caucus. You know, Nancy Pelosi just retired. That's what she ultimately was good at. And look, we can disagree with many of her aims. You can look at her old record, I wouldn't think it's that great. But what she always was great at was delivering the vote. She could count the able to wield power effectively by making sure that all of the Democrats in her caucus were very beholden to her. The other person we have to shout out here, Harry Reid. I don't think Harry Reid ever would have let this happen. He was a very good mover, shaker, not above the gutter politics, always able to move the caucus in his direction. If I think the greatest Senate leader in US history, Lyndon Johnson is always about internal politics, united front, using that united front to force something from the government. And I do think the Republicans were like a week away from something actually coming through. Maybe not necessarily in the House but in the Senate and then the Senate and Trump may have caved. Who knows where things could have gone. That's the whole point ultimately of a shutdown. Because in the interim, one reason why people should be furious about this is they did shut our government down for nothing. You took the same deal that was on the table 40 days ago. If you get something out of it, okay, but you get a fake show vote. Come on. I mean it's a joke, right? Because the House isn't gonna vote for it. And even if it comes in Dec, I mean come on, that's eternity in politics. That's a month. Right. So you literally did nothing. I think overall. And so yeah, if you're a Democratic based person, you should be furious. But also even if you're American, you should be mad because again at this point you really shut us all down and cause a lot of chaos. Billions and billions of dollars in lost economic productivity, whatever. So many people rely on various. They need irs, something from the government they weren't able to get through. So you immiserated a large section of our population. 4 0. I think that's pathetic. And you know that does look Democrat base and all them are going to be upset about it. But you know this is a great view into our broken politics man, because thank you for shutting our government down for this is the longest government shutdown in US history for literally nothing.

Krystal Ball (15:36)

Yeah, I mean if you couldn't stomach the pain that you should have voted for. That's the point of a shutdown is you're gonna, you're gonna cause some case you're gonna make. You're gonna cause pain on behalf of using this leverage to extract something that you believe is gonna be beneficial for the American public. That's the whole idea. If you can't take that pain, don't do it.

Saagar Enjeti (15:59)

Right.

Krystal Ball (15:59)

Just cave immediately.

Advertiser/Host (16:01)

Right.

Krystal Ball (16:01)

It'd be better than, okay, we had all this chaos and you got nothing. You got nothing out of it. Maybe you got some better results on election day. I don't know. Maybe it played into that, and maybe that was your whole goal. That is actually disgusting. That is actually disgusting because that's the other thing. As much as, you know, we were saying the Supreme Court coming out and saying, all right, we're gonna basically let the Trump administration continue to deny STAT benefits, the airline, increasing airline chaos. As much as I think that was part of this, I also just given the timing, I feel like these people plan to cave as soon as the election was over. Like, that was the goal. That was the plan all along, is what it feels like to me. Because, again, these were the types who were looking to cave from day one. And you know what? It would have been better if they did, if they just did it from the jump, that they never did this because you caused pain and you got nothing. The other thing you were talking about the limited hangout in the Senate and the way that the Senate operates. The other thing, Trump was threatening to get rid of the filibuster and so that they wouldn't need Democrats to pass anything, which to me, I'm like, good, you should get rid of the filibuster. And there were a lot of Republicans that were nervous about that because they were like, yeah, but then if Democrats get back in power, which increasingly looks possible in the next midterm elections, then they can do things like, they can give D.C. to senators, they can give Puerto Rico to senators, they can put age limits or term limits or pack the Supreme Court. It opens up possibilities. These types who just voted for this, they also don't want the filibuster to go away, even though some of them will claim that they do. The reason is because then they don't have an excuse to do nothing. Then you actually, like, have to take votes, and it's actually consequential. And things might actually happen. These many of these centrist corporate types, the last thing they want is actual power. The last thing they want is to be able to have to actually explain why they're not delivering for the American people without it being the parliamentarian. Oh, my God. The Republicans. Oh, my God. The filibuster they love having the filibuster as an excuse to do nothing that improves people's lives. So that was the other piece of this, is the fact that Trump was starting to put pressure on Republicans, like, okay, just nuke the filibuster and pass it personally. For me, that would have been a better resolution to this, because in either case, Democrats get nothing. And in that case, it is abundantly clear, like, who forced the shutdown. The Democrats stood firm, and then, you know, you've got the filibuster eliminated and people can actually get what they vote for, and you have a chance of Congress actually being forced to govern and take stances on issues.

Saagar Enjeti (18:35)

Yeah, totally. You're absolutely right. I mean, look, yeah, the Republicans don't want it either.

Krystal Ball (18:38)

Right?

Saagar Enjeti (18:38)

Because for them, they're nothing. They love more than being in the minority and doing nothing.

Krystal Ball (18:44)

And then when they're in the majority too, everybody does.

Saagar Enjeti (18:46)

Yeah, that's the secret.

Krystal Ball (18:47)

They've handed all their power to Trump.

Saagar Enjeti (18:49)

Look at the war powers. Yeah, look at war powers. You know, shortly after we wrapped our show on Thursday, there was this fake kabuki vote on the war powers resolution for Venezuela, which actually went down 51, 40 in the Senate. But the only reason why was cause the White House came out and said, whoa, look, we promise that we aren't going to do anything right now. Right now, whenever it comes to Venezuela, everyone was like, oh, okay, here, Mr. Commander in Chief, you have the unilateral authority to not only declare war in an undeclared theater, but to depose a foreign government with US Troops and one of the largest deployments in the Caribbean since the 1960s. And we don't have anything to say about it. But Congress is pathetic. It's absolutely pathetic. You know, to your point also about the politics of all this, you flagged this from msnbc, where even the libs on MSNBC are very angry. Let's take a listen. That is a five, please. Chuck Schumer should have negotiated a better deal. He should have been in the public more. He's just not. He's not a bad guy any stretch. He's just not the right person at the right time. We're going through a different time. You're dealing with a GOP that's an anti democratic movement. They don't care what the American people think on an issue like this. So I think, honestly, this is the end of Chuck Schumer as we go forward.

Krystal Ball (20:00)

What do you think of that, Anthony?

Ro Khanna (20:02)

You know, I've never been a Chuck Schumer fan.

Saagar Enjeti (20:05)

Look at this tender books. But I'm not ready to write his obituary just yet.

Ro Khanna (20:10)

I mean you don't get to be.

Saagar Enjeti (20:11)

The Senate Democratic leader for as long as he has without some raw political skills. I don't even. First of all, I don't know who that guy is. But that's Sunday, Sunday evening fair there on Ms. But I mean look, I think the extent to the, the evidence at this point is this. People are pathetic. Absolutely pathetic. And I can tell you, you know the Republicans never would have folded for something like this. Absolutely not. They never would have. Now Trump had Trump did in the past whenever it came to his previous longest shutdown in what was 2018, I think. Yeah, 2018, 2019. That went into the long year over the it was like the border wall funding. He definitely caved. Don't get me wrong. But in terms of the original, she destroyed him. Yeah. But when I think shutdowns, the 2013 shutdowns and more that they fought against Obama and including with some of the debt ceiling fights, I mean you never would have seen this level of cave from, from them. You can go back and you can read some of the history. They definitely at least got something out of it whenever especially on the debt ceiling and eventual like panels and other things for Social Security, entitlements, et cetera. So yeah, I mean it's bad. Like you said, why should don't shut the government down if you can't take the heat. The whole point is that the heat is supposed to do something and especially after getting ratified in an election. In terms your strategy against this, I think it's really pathetic for them as a national movement.

Krystal Ball (21:36)

I turned off news altogether. I hate to say it, but I don't trust much of anything.

Saagar Enjeti (21:43)

It's the rage bait.

Krystal Ball (21:46)

It feels like it's trying to divide people.

Saagar Enjeti (21:50)

We got clear facts. Maybe we could calm down a little bit.

NBC News Announcer (21:56)

NBC News brings you clear reporting. Let's meet at the Facts. Let's move forward from there. NBC News reporting for America.

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Krystal Ball (23:07)

Let's consider the man who is like, you know who they're caving to here, which is Donald Trump. So yesterday he went to the Commander's game.

Saagar Enjeti (23:16)

Yes.

Krystal Ball (23:16)

Here in D.C. what was. He was like doing some.

Saagar Enjeti (23:19)

Yes. He also, the announcers let him call some of the plays and he literally was like, well, we'll see what happens. Or he would do things where he'd be like they scored a touchdown. He's like, well, neat. We need some more of those. You know, stuff like. It was like the worst scholar commentary that I've ever seen. But yeah, I'm a newer NFL fan, so maybe there. I think there's some guy out there, another awful announcer. I think it's Collingsworth. I think that's who he is. Who might be worse than Trump, but that's pretty much it.

Krystal Ball (23:44)

Trey Collingsworth. Is that his name?

Saagar Enjeti (23:45)

I think it's Chris Collinsworth.

Krystal Ball (23:47)

Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. So anyway, he was there and the crowd was not excited. Super excited to see him. This was some of the most aggressive anti president president booing that I think I've ever seen. This is A8. Let's go ahead and take a listen to that.

Saagar Enjeti (24:01)

I am saying your name.

Ro Khanna (24:08)

Do solemnly swear.

Saagar Enjeti (24:13)

That I will support and defend the constitution of the United States. Its all enemies.

Krystal Ball (24:29)

I mean that was, that was pretty wild.

Saagar Enjeti (24:31)

And he's trying okay to be fair. And I'm just saying this is the cope for them. You are in the DMV at a hometown game in Commanders where probably 3/4 of the audience either knows somebody who has been fired or has been fired themselves has been furloughed. If I was Trump, I would not show up to that game. I'd be like, this is the worst terror. It's like, bro, you need to go to a Green Bay game.

Krystal Ball (24:51)

That's actually, I mean that's just a fair point.

Saagar Enjeti (24:53)

Yeah, that's true.

Krystal Ball (24:55)

But that's the point with like people are blaming him for the shutdown. Right. I mean, the politics, Democrats, if they were squishy on the politics, and who was coming out on top in terms of, like, the politics of this thing? The election results last week should have made abundantly clear that people were more blaming Trump, they were blaming the Republicans more for the pain, for the chaos. And the public never likes the shutdown. Right. You know, I'm sure, actually if you poll today and you ask the public, like, are you happy that there's a deal? Most of the public is going to say yes. Right. But in terms of who was being hurt more, there's no doubt that it was the Republicans and Donald Trump in particular. There was another thing that's very interesting that I wanted to get your thoughts on. Sagar, which is one of the pollsters. Did these, like, word clouds of negative things that you'd heard about Trump. And the number one thing actually was the shutdown. Shut down government. You still have tariffs in there. Immigration is actually on there as well. But then very recently. Oh, Epstein is there too. Very recently, things switched. And take a look at this. This is fascinating to me. Ballroom, White House, East Wing destroying, building. Shutdown is still there. But demolish food stamps and SNAP there as well. But, you know, I don't want to read too much into it, but I do have to say the contrast of them denying people food stamp benefits, giving tax cuts to the rich, hanging out with all these wealthy people, shutting down the government, and then meanwhile, you're building this gilded ballroom for yourself and throwing yourself these fancy parties in Mar A Lago. I do think that is creating a certain sense among the American people. I mean, it is very like Gilded Age coded. And it's very detrimental to his brand, which was supposed to be like, you know, about the working class and really delivering for the people, et cetera, et.

Saagar Enjeti (26:48)

Cetera, I think it just shows that America is a Lindy nation. Lindy is a concept that, you know, things that, it's kind of hard to explain, but basically like things that rang true in the past continue to ring true throughout time, throughout all American history, especially, let's say, during the Great Depression. I mean, think about it. During 9 11, if you recall, one of the most famous moments was not just what happened, obviously, with the attacks. It was George W. Bush's bumbling right? Whenever he was being told about the attacks. And he refuses to leave, like symbology in these small moments, ends up massively massive. And things that, you know, in the aggregate, did it really matter that Bush waited? I forget exactly how long he waited. But that was like a huge thing if during the Depression, if you've read a decent amount about it, Herbert Hoover's like multi course dinners that were candlelit at the White House. They became legend in the world of Hoovervilles. And people who were very critical, let's say of the Hoover administration would be like, he dines in the White House while we sit here in a Hooverville and we wait for our early pension. There was these veterans pension marchers that were happening and they were violently kind of thrown out. I think it was here in D.C. they were camping out on the National Mall. I'd have to go back and check. But the point is like these symbols become things that people really latch onto. And I think for a lot of people it's about priority. At the end of the day it's all about priority. He obviously is more laser focused on adding as much gold Home Depot decor as possible at the White House and remaking it in the image of like a low three star hotel of what he, he I guess perceives as good taste than he is in terms of what's happening to you. That's the point. That's why this stuff matters. It's not about the gold. Right? I mean, or I would hope so personally as somebody who loves aesthetics and hates the current reformation of the White House. But I do think if things were going great, nobody would care. But the point is, is that when you are doing that, you're laser focused on that. You see all this stuff in the news and you see the bulldozers, the erasure and the construction that's happening at the very same time that things are just not getting better for you. Let's put the snap and the air travel stuff aside because people forget it's not just about that. It's a culmination of. It's November 10th. Now, you got elected about a year ago. What have you done for me lately? And that's the point. Inflation remains punishingly high. Healthcare premiums and all that are going sky high. That's not just because of the Obamacare subsidies. Even in the private market they're up like 10, 15%. So if, or not, I mean the employer subsidy market. So if you look at that, if you look at grocery store prices, if you look at the, you know, the AI stuff, data centers, your power bills, housing prices are either flat or have gone, continue to go high. The basics of life are not getting better. And I do think what they underestimated is that many people we've always Said this about Trump. Trump is a bomb thrown into the system. And the theory behind a bomb thrown in the system is the system is so broken that nothing can be done except. Except for choosing somebody who's choosing something truly radical. If you rewind to a year ago, part of the case I made about the Cash Patel's and the, you know, the RFK Jr. I go look for most people, roll the dice. No more institutions, nothing. No more guard, nothing. We need some radical shit to happen. And if anything, what's happened instead is, yeah, radical stuff has happened in the wrong direction. Right. It's like you're using extraordinary power. Right. You're using radical and extraordinary views or theories of executive power to either advance your own individual family's interests, to advance, let's say, like a corporate interest or a tax bill or something. Let's say some crazy shit on immigration. But, like, at the end of the day, what's actually happening, for me, that's what people want to see. People love radical stuff as long as it's done in the right direction. Exactly. And so that is what I would say. The ballroom kind of, you know, comes together. It's. It's the Hoover having the candlelight dinners. It's. I mean, throughout all history, it's like the symbology of it is about cares about that, not about me.

Ro Khanna (30:47)

Yeah.

Krystal Ball (30:48)

And it's also about you acting like a king.

Saagar Enjeti (30:50)

Yeah, that's true.

Krystal Ball (30:51)

You know, I've seen people make the point, like, what, you think he's building out this $300 million ballroom? Cause he thinks he's gonna leave? Like, who builds that for their successor? And that's the other problem for him is, like, this is not some little quick, you know, weekend renovation project. This construction is gonna be ongoing. And he does have at least enough of a sense to realize it's a bit of a problem for him because he banned everybody from taking Pict. Like, this is a man who understands branding, image, optics. Like, if nothing else, that's something that he really gets. But he also, you know, loves a good. Loves a good construction project with, like, laden and gilded with gold and just can't resist it. He's sending out all these pictures about his fricking marble bathroom. And then now, you know, if you scroll on Twitter, you'll just see endless reels of what's going on at Mar a Lago. You know, this weekend they had some opulent seafood buffet with the stone crab clause that costs a ridiculous amount per pound while Americans are literally going hungry because you won't Send out the food stamp money that you're actually obligated to send down. So I wanna give credit to Neera Danden. She said they're gonna lose.

Saagar Enjeti (31:59)

Yes, she did.

Krystal Ball (32:00)

She was like, they're gonna lose the midterm elections because of this East Wing double. I was like, come. Okay, that's a little.

Saagar Enjeti (32:06)

I was like. I was happy about it. I said, people, join me. Join me in this. Yeah, look, let's always remember, politics is bread and circus. It's theater. And so any Democrat who is worth anything, who's running for office should be like, I will tear down the ballroom on day one. We don't care about the costs. We don't care about it. We will rip this ballroom to shreds. We will publish daily updates on demolition. The gold will be smelted, and whatever actual amount of karat gold is in the fixings, considering that Goldman Smith. We will smelt the gold and we will distribute it to the American people. We will burn it quite literally, like in Game of Thrones, where they melt it and then they pour it on the face of the opponent. That is what we promise to do. We will restore the Oval to its glory of John F. Kennedy. Whenever it was understated, it was a place of work, and it was one in which we could all see ourselves in the Oval Office and not instead the Throne Room and at Versailles. See, these are all good things that I like. But I mean, look, at this point, obviously, it's caught on. People are mad. They're mad about it. And I like it, I think, because as you said, there's the kingly element to it. There's also something. I mean, I always said this about his demolition. I was like, dude, it's not about you. The whole point is that the White House is literally not about you. The White House transcends. And I don't even like the White. The White House sucks. If you've ever been there, it's dingy. It hasn't been renovated since the 1980s. 80s. It's actually not nice. I'm not saying Trump doesn't have a point. I think the point for all of us is, like, yeah, but we didn't ask you to turn it into Mar A Lago. Like that photo of the Lincoln Bedroom bath. That almost gave me a heart attack. Okay. That almost gave me a heart attack. I mean, seeing. I can't deal with this. I mean, we're not living in Las Vegas. It's actually going to make me have a meltdown. And it's one of those where I think there are a lot of people. Apparently.

Krystal Ball (33:59)

Apparently that was the norm.

Saagar Enjeti (34:00)

I. I love it. I love it.

Krystal Ball (34:01)

The normie sense was like, now you've gone too far.

Saagar Enjeti (34:05)

Yes, he has done.

Krystal Ball (34:06)

Now you've gone too far.

Saagar Enjeti (34:09)

Not everything needs to look like the palazzo in Las Vegas or the Trump International Hotel or any of these places. Again, the point is, it's not yours to do. That's the whole point. It's not for you to. I mean, the Walk of Fame thing in the Colonnade, that's the. It's the Colonad. It's like, that's where we take photos with world leaders, and now we have gold everywhere.

Krystal Ball (34:30)

It literally looks like. It literally looks like the Venetian in Vegas.

Saagar Enjeti (34:34)

Who needs to. Why do we need to label the Oval Office? You don't need a label on the Oval. It's the most recognizable room in the nation. You don't need a sign in the Oval Office. It's like going to some shitty golf course, like a public golf course that you pay, like, $50 for entry. And there's a sign that says the clubhouse.

Krystal Ball (34:54)

It's funny you say that. The script legit reminds me of, like, country Club, like, where you post, you know, the. The best golfers at the club or whatever. That's what it looks like. And just one last piece on this to the point. Put a 12 up on the screen. Meanwhile, this is what I believe. This is Newark looks like yesterday. All those planes waiting for takeoff. And by the way, even. Look, the government's not reopened yet. It's gonna take some time. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It's gotta go through the House, back to the Senate, et cetera, et cetera. But you had a bunch of air traffic controllers and Sean Duffy came out and said this, who are gone. Like, they resigned. I can't go without a paycheck. Like, screw this. I'm done with this job. This job is difficult, it's stressful. And now I'm supposed to work endlessly without getting paid? See ya. I'm out of here. So these problems are not just gonna, like, fix themselves once the government is reopened? It'll be better. But you've now lost critical capacity at our nation's airports. And rather than caring about that or the people are going hungry. And there's literal breadlines in cities across the. And 70 some percent of the country says the economy's poor and you're giving the store away to a bunch of oligarchs and sucking up as much cash as you can in your own pocket. Instead of caring about any of the things that American people actually care about, you're building a frigging ballroom for yourself. Okay, got it. Got it.

Saagar Enjeti (36:18)

I turned off news altogether.

Krystal Ball (36:20)

I hate to say it, but I don't trust much of anything.

Saagar Enjeti (36:25)

It's the rage bait.

Krystal Ball (36:27)

It feels like it's trying to divide people.

Saagar Enjeti (36:31)

We got clear facts. Maybe we could calm down a little.

NBC News Announcer (36:37)

NBC News brings you clear reporting. Let's meet at the Facts. Let's move forward from there. NBC News reporting for America.

Advertiser/Host (36:48)

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Krystal Ball (37:34)

Fortunate to be joined this morning by Representative Ro Khanna of California. Great to see you, sir.

Saagar Enjeti (37:40)

Good to see you, sir.

Ro Khanna (37:40)

Good morning.

Krystal Ball (37:42)

So you tweeted yesterday, in response to a number of centrist Democrats caving to the Republicans and voting for the shutdown deal, you tweeted this. Senator Schumer is no longer effective and should be replaced. If you can't lead the fight to stop health care premiums from skyrocketing for Americans, what will you fight for? What led you to that conclusion, Congressman?

Ro Khanna (38:04)

Just a moral disgust. I mean, I know personally, as I'm sure you do, people whose premiums are gonna go up 1,000, $2,000 a month. Millions of Americans are literally gonna get kicked off healthcare, and we can't fight to make sure that their premiums don't go up after the Tuesday wins. It's just political malpractice. Here. You have Donald Trump on the ropes, scrambling, trying to make some deal, and we basically say, well, we don't care if the premiums go up. Like, what do we stand for? So he needs to be replaced and stepped down. More Democrats need to be calling for that. The only reason they aren't calling for it, let me be blind, is because you offend a lot of Donors. There are a lot of billionaires, there are a lot of donors that contribute to the dscc, that contribute to Chuck Schumer. But you know, we've got to make a choice at this party. Are we going to be beholden to the donors that have gotten us two terms of Donald Trump or are we going to listen to people?

Saagar Enjeti (39:01)

Sir, the cope from the Schumer crowd is, well, he voted no. What is he supposed to do? He can't keep his caucus in line. What's the response to the that?

Ro Khanna (39:10)

Come on, Schumer's been in politics for 50 years. I mean, even he couldn't say that with a straight face. He controls the caucus. He determines when a deal can be cut. He obviously gave them the green light. I don't think he would even deny that he didn't call up Dick Durbin, his number two, and say, hey, Dick, maybe you shouldn't be voting this way. So this is the typical gain. It actually, actually adds to the cynicism. I mean, if he had just voted for it, at least he could have made, maybe have some principled argument. But this is the worst of both worlds. It's like, look, I'm going to try to play a political game, but at the end of the day, the premiums are still going to go up.

Krystal Ball (39:51)

So, Congressman, let me play devil's advocate here. So what the centrists say is basically like, look, the Republicans drew a hard line. They were not bending. Trump isn't even negotiating with us. They say they will not give us anything other than this. And Meanwhile, you've got 40 plus million people who are going hungry without food stamps. You've got all these federal government workers who are out of work, not getting paychecks. You've got increasing chaos at the airlines. I know you yourself have suffered from some of the air travel nightmares. We're heading into Thanksgiving here. We're trying to be the adults in the room. What do you say to that?

Ro Khanna (40:25)

Well, look, obviously people are suffering in my district. They're suffering in terms of the snap benefits being cut. Cut. There's no doubt that on the airlines. I was just talking yesterday, I was in the airport six hours. There are a lot of lines, cuts. Air traffic controllers aren't being paid. Congressional staff aren't being paid. Federal workers are being paid. I get all of that. And what we should be talking about is reopening the House of Representatives so we can vote to extend staff benefits, pay troops. I think we had a lot of leverage to continue to put the pressure to do that. But you had Donald Trump literally saying, we lost the election because of this. We need to get some deal. And I think we could have gotten an extension. Could we have gotten it permanent on the tax credits? Maybe not, but a year. I mean there were Republican House members like Lawler who were willing to give a year. And the fact is that we'd got nothing. I mean, that's what is so frustrating about the situation.

Saagar Enjeti (41:22)

And then, I mean, how do you think Leader Jeffries is going to handle this in the House of Representatives?

Ro Khanna (41:27)

Congressman, so far he is saying that we're going to fight it with any procedural vote we can. I mean they, we need a few Republicans to break. They may break depending on what the bill is. So the Democrats in the House are going to stay united and fight for the, for the stopping the premium increases.

Krystal Ball (41:48)

You know, back to on the point with Schumer. One of your colleagues, Mark Pocan, also tweeted this out. He said, don't endorse or say who you voted for in NYC despite there being a dumb can get Dem senators to negotiate a terrible deal that does nothing real about health care. Screw over a national political party. Profile of courage. Of profile. I think he most meant to say profile of courage next. So clearly your sentiment is shared by at least some of your colleagues. And I think the point he makes there too, about Chuck Schumer refusing to even say who he voted for in New York City, I think it's an important one as well. Because if you're gonna be a leader of the Democratic Party and the Democratic base is saying, hey, this is Zoramdani, this is our guy, like we like this guy. We like the direction he's going for. We're gonna vote for him in the primary. We're gonna show up in record breaking numbers to vote for him in the general election, make sure that he wins. And you can't even say that you voted for the Democratic candidate. I mean, how out of step are you with the own, like your own voters, voters in the party, let alone your own caucus, let alone colleagues such as you. But he's also, and most importantly, wildly out of step with where his own voters are within the Democratic Party.

Ro Khanna (43:04)

You're absolutely right. I mean, look, this was the straw that broke the camel's back. You had Chuck Schumer cheerleading into the war in Iraq. You've had Chuck Schumer cheerleading for a blank check to Netanyahu. You've had Chuck Schumer betraying us on the first shutdown. You then had Chuck Schumer given multiple opportunities after Zoran won the primary to at least endorse him, even if it was a pro forma endorsement. He doesn't do that. And now he's not even willing to fight to make sure that the ACA subsidies don't increase. So to your earlier question about are there difficult questions on SNAP benefits and group pay? Of course there are. And maybe if this was the only content context, Chuck Schumer will have some grace and goodwill and say, okay, we disagree, we disagree with this deal, but it's not enough to call for you to step down. But this is the culmination of someone who just doesn't get it, who doesn't get how much people are hurting, who doesn't get where the base of this party is, who doesn't get how upset this party has been that we're giving all this money to overseas wars and not doing health care here, who certainly is never going to support Medicare for all. He's just. She's not the future of the party.

Saagar Enjeti (44:14)

Yeah. Thank you so much for joining us, Congressman. We appreciate it.

Ro Khanna (44:16)

Thank you. Appreciate it.

Saagar Enjeti (44:20)

I turned off news altogether.

Krystal Ball (44:23)

I hate to say it, but I don't trust much of anything.

Saagar Enjeti (44:27)

It's the rage bait.

Krystal Ball (44:30)

It feels like it's trying to divide people.

Saagar Enjeti (44:34)

We got clear facts. Maybe we could calm down a little.

NBC News Announcer (44:39)

NBC News brings you clear reporting. Let's meet at the Facts. Let's move forward from there. NBC News reporting for America.

Advertiser/Host (44:50)

No, it's not too soon to start holiday shopping. Ulta Beauty's early Black Friday event is happening now through November 22nd. Shop $10 beauty minis from brands like Mac and Too Faced. Take 30% off Lancome and Touchland fragrances and body mists. With new offers dropping every week, our associates can help you find the perfect gifts. Head into Ulta Beauty today to shop. Our early Black Friday event. Ulta Beauty Gifting happens here every holiday. Shopper's got a list. But Ross shoppers, you've got a mission like a gift run that turns into a disco snow globe, throw pillows and PJs for the whole family. Dog includes Ross. Holiday magic isn't about spending more, it's about giving more for less. Ross, work your magic.

Saagar Enjeti (45:36)

Turning now to affordability. The White House denying the affordability campaign of Zoran Mamdani in New York City saying that it's a bit of a Democratic hoax, but at the very same time acknowledging it's a huge problem actually for them in the elections that are coming forward in 2026. And they've come up with some truly boneheaded plans. But first let's start with Donald Trump. Trump on affordability itself, is it a problem? Let's take a listen.

Ro Khanna (45:59)

Walmart said that the Thanksgiving was 25 more expensive, 25% more expensive under Biden. That's a big, to me, that's a, that's a big number because Wal Mart's respected. I mean Walmart is Walmart and you know, they're giving you prices. So that would mean that the whole series of pricing and costs, you know, the great groceries and everything else, it was a con job. It was a con job. Affordability, they call it was a con job by the, by the Democrats. The Democrats are good at a few things. Cheating on elections and conning people with facts that aren't true.

Saagar Enjeti (46:37)

Affordability was a con job. Trump has become Biden, like literally in the exact. Well, they're lying to you about the numbers and then they're putting out charts. They're doing everything they possibly can. They're like, well the stock market is near all time highs and everybody's like, yeah, but shit's actually still too expensive. Like it's not that difficult to figure it out. It's actually shocking how quickly you could turn from the people who correctly, in my opinion, made fun of Bidenomics only to then do your only version of that. They also, borrowing from Biden, are doing boneheaded, idiotic proposals which will do absolutely nothing and reveal how corrupt the entire system is. Let's just go ahead and put the stuff one up here on the screen, shall we? So this is from Bill Pulte, who is the U.S. director of Federal Housing. And in response to the Zoran Mamdani election which was centered around affordability and around rent, he says, thanks to President Trump, we are indeed working on the 50 year mortgage, a complete game changer. Now, the theory behind the 50 year mortgage is, oh hey, the 30 year mortgage, you know, that storied thing in the US history that has financed the ability of the middle class and others to get in the housing market. The problem with affordability is that people's mortgage payments are too expensive. Definitely true. And so what we will do is we will extend it 20 years over its life cycle. And by doing that, you will save a couple hundred dollars per month, which, you know, not exactly a lot, but you will pay millions of dollars or more in interest to the bank and you will basically be a renter. And by the way, we're not gonna do about capital being able to come in to the Housing market. We're not doing anything to incentivize first time home buyers. We're not going to inject a massive amount of money to build more housing. We're not going to do anything on the supply side. We're actually just going to make it so that the demand side is slightly, let's say maybe 5% a little bit better for the potential buyer and it's, I don't know, 2, 300% better for the banks and for the financial institutions. If you don't believe me, just check out the math and you can do this for yourself at any mortgage guy calculator if you want. Put this up here on the screen. I love this. $500,000 house, 2021 3% interest rate $2,100 payment mortgage 30 years total interest payments quarter of a million, 220, 25 $500,000 house, 7% interest rate, $3,000 payment mortgage in a 50 year mortgage. So the 20 year longer but with double the interest rate, total interest payments $1 million, a million dollars in interest.

Krystal Ball (49:08)

Double the amount of the house.

Saagar Enjeti (49:10)

House just in interest, just in interest, double the amount of. And by the way, that's the case in many of these 30 year mortgages too. Part of the reason I'm Ramsey pilled second discussion. We'll put that to the side. You should all take a look. What is it called? The amortization schedule on your mortgage. Seriously, please go and look at the calculators for these things. The extending the life cycle of the mortgage barely saves you any money in terms of the overall period. It is a boon to the bank in a way I can't even describe. I mean look at that. That's three quarters of a million dollars in interest that the bank gets for Chase Manhattan and all these other people to increase their, to increase their stocks or whatever. It's a disastrous idea. It also in my opinion, gives the game away as to how these people actually have genuinely no solutions whenever it comes to housing. Now on the healthcare thing, we were originally gonna do a segment about healthcare premiums and we can debate all day long, you know, Medicare for all coverage, price controls, et cetera. The point though, unfortunately is that neither party actually believes in either of those and I'm seeing that whenever it comes to housing as well. At the local level, people in San Francisco are fed up and you know, they're trying to embrace yimbyism, but they've got their local politicians currently bragging about bringing down like a six story building. Not a joke by the way. That actually happened. And the only state that has really embraced like true YIMBY policy has been Texas. Had relatively mixed results. But I would say overall it's good, but it's still very local. Nobody has a national plan to really do anything about it. And I thought that the Wall Street Journal actually summed up this all very well. Let's put this up here on the screen. Why lower mortgage rates aren't enough to make homes more affordable. What they have in front of you is something called the Housing Affordability Index. Just take a look. I mean you can see in terms of the affordability index that we have reached a near all time long low ever since 2021. And we've just hovered around that for the entire time. And actually if you look at something that's even more important called the home priced income ratio, and if you look at the overall 50 year average between the 1970s and 2000, we were below the 50 year average. Things spiked during the Great Recession and the housing bubble in 2006. You know, 2005 period, whenever there was a ton of, you know, fake affordability happening because they were giving loans like those no doc loans, no income loans loans and those types of things out, then it plunged right back to normal ish type levels. And then, yeah, ever since 2021 it went sky high. Home prices went up some 50% and the price to income ratio has remained near the all time high for the last five years. This is something I also find as a generational thing, a lot of boomer. If you think about this from a boomer mind, five years is not that long time. If you're in your 60s, you're waiting for Medicare, whatever, it's just not that long. You've lived a decent amount of life. If you're in your 20s, five years is an eternity. Five years are those exponential years where you're trying to build a foundation. You might get married, you might have a kid. I mean, five years ago we weren't even hosting the show. You know, I got married, I had a child. Like your life can radically change in five years. That's not the case for people who are much older. So people are like, oh, these millennials, they have no idea. It's like, no, I think they do have an idea. Number one, it's a, you know, five years in a 20 something year lifespan is just, you know, a decent much more chunk of your life. But they're the most important years in a lot of ways. Ways to be able to see that you're on an upward trajectory in life. And there's no denying that you're on a downward trajectory right now. And in my opinion we've been on a downward trajectory for 25 years, ever since the year 2000. So I feel like when you put those together and you look at housing, you see this ridiculous policy of 50 year as the best somebody can muster with radical thinking. I don't really see a ton frankly on the Democratic side either. I'm not against yimby, like let me be clear in some cases. But also I think the point just comes down to massive, massive, massive amounts like Manhattan level project amounts of grants to all the states with the requirement they must build housing. The politicians in those states can figure it out how they want to do it. You can build more single families, whatever, it's up to you, urban, mixed residential, et cetera. But you need a shit ton more stuff supply. And people just don't like, people just don't want to go there because the landed gentry is also opposed to it. So it's just a total misalignment of incentives.

Krystal Ball (53:24)

Right. Well, to stick with housing specifically, you've got the new abundance. It's not really new, but whatever abundance movement in the Democratic party which is very focused on yimbyism, fine. It's not enough, right? Just rolling back the regulations. Texas like you said, is a great example. It's not like it solved all their problems even either. You need that. But then you're gonna have to not only tackle the entrenched interest homeowners, very powerful political constituency and they are really devoted to a lot of NIMBYism. So you have to deal with that. But then you also are gonna have to deal with the developers. You're gonna have to also deal with permanent capital which has bought up a bunch of single family homes and is part of what has made the housing market so much more expensive. You're gonna have to deal with that. You have to deal with the landlord cartels as well to deal with algorithmic prices, pricing. That's the thing is you have to be willing to go up against entrenched interest, entrenched, moneyed interest on a variety of fronts. Same with health care. And by the way, what you're talking about is this isn't something you can just leave to the market. That's why neoliberalism has utterly failed in this regard. You can't just leave it to the market. Developers, what they want to build is like high end condos for rich people because those are the people who have all the Money, you're going to need a lot more. More, frankly, state central planning, whether that's at the state level or at the federal level or some combination of both. And that has been anathema to both the political parties for years and years and years. So it really requires a sort of revolutionary rethink of the relationship between the government and the people and how involved they are and going back to some of like New Deal era policies and learning from the mistakes of that and improving upon the model from that era as well. Healthcare is the same thing. I mean, again, you'd have to take on these incredibly entrenched interests. And so instead of doing that, what did Obama do? He said, okay, well, let's come to a compromise with the insurers. Let's actually make it so that we're guaranteeing them a clientele, we're guaranteeing them that everybody's going to be in these markets so they can profit off of them more greatly. And at the same time, we'll put some restrictions into place so that people aren't getting screwed over quite as badly as they were in the previous system. No, there's no compromise to be had with these forces. You have to actually confront them. And that's the place that we're at. And so the common sort of thread between Trump, Trump has now thrown out a bunch, several of these, like, I got killed on affordability, what can I do kind of policies. You've got the 50 year mortgage, total giveaway to the banks. I mean, just a preposterous idea. You've got this health care, okay, rather than doing the extending the premium subsidies, we're going to just send you money direct into your account, which I'm not like morally opposed to. But it doesn't fix the problem at all. And it's actually going to. What it's going to end up doing is exacerbating the problem because then you're going to have fewer people in the insurance marketplace. Premiums for those remain are gonna go up even further. You're just pushing us more into that death spiral mode and you're not dealing with any of the underlying issues of a for profit healthcare system. And then the big problem, just people feeling like the economy is shitty and they don't have enough money. At the end of the month, he came up with this other brilliant idea of, oh, we're gonna use the tariff revenue to send everybody $2,000, which I'm sure there isn't sufficient tariff revenue to do that. But then, by the way, the Supreme Court is very likely striking those tariffs down and you're gonna have to send that money back to someone somehow. Not to mention Scott Benson went on TV and was like, well, the $2,000 could come in a variety of forms. It might be the tax cuts that we've already passed. But again, even if you took him at his face value and he's sending out $2,000 checks, okay, we got stimmy checks before. Did that solve the problems of our economy? Did that lessen inequality and made it easier for people in that moment? Is better than nothing. But you still have stagnant wages. You still have them going whole hog on AI which is meant to push out of a job. You still have the wealthy basically rigging the rules and eating the economy and making sure that all the gains flow into their own bank accounts. For Elon Musk about to be the world's first trillionaire. So none of these things, all of these are like weird little gimmicky band aids to make it look like he cares and is doing something, has some kind of a solution. None of it deals with the underlying problems.

Saagar Enjeti (57:26)

You need to subsidize both demand and supply at the lower end or for first time home buyers. And of course this is something that it could actually happen. You could literally if you created it, if you wanted, you could have a home buyer tax credit first time home buyer make it so that if your first time or if you haven't owned a home within a couple of years, you get a huge tax credit whenever that comes. You could delay their capital gains tax only for the first time home purchase. And then, you know, people who own one or two or more homes aren't allowed to use that capital gains roll tax that they're very expert at doing. You can also do demand side tax credits for loans. Make it so that suppliers home builders aren't just subsidizing homes or building homes for boomers. Make it so that they can also extend significant write off. You can make it so that property taxes for people who are younger first time home buyers are either deductible or you can create some state funding thing that makes it so that they give relief to the. You know, I've talked about property tax relief. There should be property tax relief at the bottom end of the spectrum when you're getting started, not at the top whenever you're multi millionaire and when you're already sitting on hugely appreciated homes which are way too big and you have no business being in the first place. Like the whole system, like you just said, Top to bottom is screwed. I was just telling you today, there's a new study out from the University of Toronto. Let me read you a little bit of this. Rising housing costs have caused 51% of the total fertility rate decline between 2000s and 2010s and a 7% point fewer young families in the 2000s alone. Now, obviously, you know the methodology, et cetera, we can debate. It's pretty hard to say exactly 51%, but it does make a little bit of sense, no? If it's too expensive to have space where you can raise kids, then maybe you'll just have less kids. I see this all the time in the DMV where we live. It is the single most expensive place to raise a family in the United States of America. Number one in healthcare. I'm not exaggerating. You look it up from the Wall Street Journal. Number word number one, child cost. Number two, in terms of affordability in terms of housing. And the four counties, four out of the five richest counties in the United States are all here in the dmv. And you're like, I'm not joking. Like, you can be an hour away from D.C. and the median home price is like $1.2 million. Like it's. What are you supposed to do there? Exactly. Where are people who want more than two children even going to live if you're leveraged up to the hilt at a 6% mortgage trying to buy a house like that? That's the fundamental problem. Nobody wants to do anything about it. I see very little actually being proposed broadly, like you said. Yeah, abundance is great for New York City or for San Francisco. What about in the suburbs? What about in the.

Krystal Ball (60:02)

Even there, it's not going to be enough though, right?

Saagar Enjeti (60:04)

Exactly. Even in New York. We've talked about that. You know, Zoron, he's like, oh, you know, his dream is to build 200,000 more units. Yeah, yeah, great. But it's like, like we said, look at the population, this city of 8 million people. Right? I mean, that's not even. You're not even making a dent in terms of the overall percentage. So I don't know. I'm starting to believe in the grand unified theory of housing. Like, I actually think housing may actually be the central part of it. It's from politics. It's so central to America, to property ownership. Like our literal common law is based around property ownership. We're very different society than a lot of renter societies throughout the world, especially in the developed world. For a long time that was kind of the, the vision that was pushed by like the true neoliberals. And now they're embracing that. You know, you need assets to be an independent man, to be an independent citizen, to have stake in your society. And we're really losing that. And I think that that is causing the radicalism, like everywhere. And unfortunately, we're just moving the opposite direction.

Krystal Ball (60:57)

Yeah, it's a big part of it, for sure.

Saagar Enjeti (60:58)

I, I really, I really think so. I mean, it's so core to being an American citizen. It's what really does set us apart from our wealth and kind of who we are to a lot of different countries around the world where it's baked in. You just live in an apartment, you pay rent for the whole.

Krystal Ball (61:11)

I mean, economically, it's also just the way our society is structured so that, like, that's the primary wealth building opportunity that is available to Americans. And so if you're shut down of that, I mean, you know, the legacy of, like, historic discrimination against black Americans, you can see how much lower their wealth accumulation is. And housing is a huge part of that. But, yeah, if you're a young person and you're like, mom and dad bought a house when they were frigging 25 years old, and here I am 35 years old and still don't have a prayer. Yeah, I mean, that is one of all these people who point out things are better and you're definitely better off than your parents were, and here's all the ways, et cetera, on some really core things like education and housing and healthcare and literal how long you live, life expectancy. We're going backwards. And of course that's gonna create a radical politics. Of course. And it should, by the way, because clearly the solutions of the moment are not, not working. Right. They have failed. And so you have to try something that is radically different. People thought they were voting for that with Trump. Instead they got a gilded ballroom and whatever this mortgage mess is.

Saagar Enjeti (62:17)

Yeah, it's bad, by the way. The best part is it's not even particularly gonna happen like the 50 year mortgage, because it's like some FHA loan. And a lot of people, to their credit actually, actually did speak out against this.

Krystal Ball (62:27)

But, yeah, I didn't. I genuinely did not see anyone who was not a member of the administration being like, this is a good idea. I'm sure there were some, but I didn't see any. It was pretty across the board. Like, this sucks.

Saagar Enjeti (62:39)

And here's the thing, too. You should have no faith that anything transformational will happen in the next three and a half years. One of the things I think I was on leave during the big beautiful bill. But what I always try to hammer home, America only opens up the tax code once every five years. Years. That's it. Five years. That's every single time. That's the only time that we open up the tax code. That was the only shot that most people, if you're 25 years old, you're gonna have to wait till you're 30 until you may have a chance. And having lived through two of these cycles, now that you and I have covered, what has happened, huge extension, tax cut for the wealthy tax cut. And frankly, Obama, what permanent may he make permanent Bush tax cuts? Bush does the tax cuts back in 2000. Was it 2003? 3. I want to think back. It's been 25 years since I've seen some radical, actually interesting stuff happen in the US Tax code. And that's my entire adult life, including my teenage years for that. So think about that. For people who are younger, you have to. You're gonna have to wait now for years before somebody is even potentially going to be able to help you out. And they probably still won't.

Krystal Ball (63:41)

It's been since the Bush administration that we raised the minimum wage.

Saagar Enjeti (63:44)

Yeah, that's true. Yeah.

Krystal Ball (63:45)

I mean, that's just insane. Absolutely insane.

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