11/12/24: Lib TikTok Goes Full Stop The Steal, MSNBC Ratings Plummet, DNC Member Rips Party, Jon Stewart Shreds Dems

Summary

Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar – Episode Summary (11/12/24)

Release Date: November 12, 2024
Hosted by: Krystal Ball and Saagar Enjeti
Produced by: iHeartPodcasts

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1. Introduction and Setting the Stage

As the 2024 election season enters its critical phase, hosts Krystal Ball and Saagar Enjeti kick off the episode by discussing their plans to enhance their coverage. Saagar emphasizes the importance of their premium subscribers in supporting independent journalism, stating at [01:38] "We rely on our premium subs to expand coverage, upgrade the studio, add staff, give you guys the best independent coverage that is possible."

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2. Liberal TikTok and the "Stop the Steal" Movement

Krystal introduces a segment on the surprising developments within liberal TikTok communities, particularly the rise of astrologers and conspiracy theories surrounding the election outcome.

• Astrology and Election Predictions: Krystal notes that several popular TikTok astrologers confidently predicted Kamala Harris's victory based on astrological alignments. As she states at [01:55], "A bunch of astrologers on TikTok who are very popular... asserting that actually they were right and the election is not really over."

• Conspiracy Theories: These astrologers are now claiming that the election results are manipulated, dubbing it "Stop the Steal." Saagar adds skepticism at [04:03], "Another part of it is this clip that's going viral from Joe Rogan."

• Joe Rogan Clip Analysis: The hosts dissect a viral Joe Rogan clip where he implies Elon Musk manipulated election results using Starlink. Krystal summarizes at [05:12], "So, you hear this Joe Rogan clip and it really makes sense to you."

• Host Reactions: Saagar expresses disbelief and frustration with these theories, mentioning at [07:25], "But this time I don't know, you can tell me psychologically it just feels very different."

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3. Media Shakeup Post-Election

Krystal delves into the significant decline in liberal media ratings following the election results.

• MSNBC and CNN Ratings Plummet: At [14:44], Krystal reports, "MSNBC, which did very well on election night and eclipse CNN for the first time ever, now they have lost half of their viewers compared to this time last year."

• Reasons for Decline: She attributes the drop to "liberal depression" post-election, where outlets indulged conspiracy theories, leading to a loss of viewer trust.

• Rise of Independent Left Media: Krystal highlights the surge in subscriptions for independent left-leaning media outlets like Lever News and Current Affairs, noting a "900% increase in the rate of new Current Affairs subscribers over the last few days" at [18:42].

• Audience Shift: Saagar reflects on the psychological impact, comparing the current scenario to post-9/11 sentiments, stating at [19:16], "This is like, eh. You know, it's normal."

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4. Interview with James Zoghbi – Critique of the DNC

The episode features an in-depth conversation with James Zoghbi, President of the Arab American Institute and a 32-year member of the Democratic National Committee (DNC).

• State of the DNC: Zoghbi criticizes the DNC for becoming a superficial entity disconnected from its members. He laments at [28:55], "Being a member of the Democratic Party means nothing more than I'm on an email list... Nobody asks my opinion."

• Lack of Democratic Processes: He highlights the absence of genuine democratic decision-making within the DNC, stating, "Votes are a done deal. Staff decide what we vote on" at [28:55].

• Financial Accountability Issues: Zoghbi points out the DNC's financial mismanagement, noting that "the Harris campaign raised $1 billion is in the red. We will never know where that money got spent" at [31:10].

• Consultants' Influence: He criticizes the overreliance on political consultants who prioritize their interests over the party's, saying at [32:47], "We have the political consultancy Blob. It's the same people who populate all these campaigns... They're completely out of touch with where the electorate is."

• Policy Failures: Discussing policy missteps, Zoghbi questions decisions like targeting suburban moderate Republican women and neglecting universal healthcare, asserting, "They gave up on universal healthcare... Who decided that?" at [33:55].

• Potential Reforms: He advocates for greater transparency and democratic governance within the DNC, expressing intent to possibly run for a vice-chair position to drive change at [40:29].

---

5. Jon Stewart Shreds Democratic Strategy

In a pivotal segment, Krystal delivers a powerful monologue critiquing the Democratic Party's campaign strategies leading to Kamala Harris's defeat.

• Popularism vs. Divisive Politics: Krystal argues that the Democrats' focus on "popularism"—pandering to popular policies without a unifying narrative—has led to electoral failures. She states at [44:31], "Kamala ran the platonic ideal of this approach, which has been dubbed popularism."

• Lack of Clear Narrative: She criticizes the absence of a cohesive story that clearly defines the party's goals and adversaries, contrasting it with Trump's divisive yet effective narrative. Krystal emphasizes, "They have zero narrative... When you don't relentlessly explain your story of the world... they will happily fill in the blanks."

• Economic Focus Over Cultural Issues: Advocating for a shift back to core economic issues, Krystal suggests, "Focus on basic economic issues. How do we expand the middle class?" at [46:19].

• Historical Comparisons: Drawing parallels to FDR's economic bill of rights and Bernie Sanders's class-based politics, she underscores the need for the Democrats to adopt a more aggressive stance against economic elites.

• Call to Action: Krystal calls for the Democrats to embrace divisive politics that resonate with the working class, arguing that avoidance of controversy has been detrimental. She concludes with, "The war is not between immigrants and Americans. The war is between the plutocrats and the people."

• Supporting Clips: The segment includes clips supporting her arguments, including a Bernie Sanders interview highlighting the failures of packaged politics that divide the electorate.

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6. Conclusion and Future Outlook

The episode wraps up with reflections on the current political climate and the challenges ahead for both liberals and Democrats.

• Shift in Media Consumption: With the decline of traditional liberal media, there's a noticeable shift towards independent outlets that promise accountability and transparent reporting.

• Future of the Democratic Party: Both hosts express skepticism about the DNC's ability to reform and regain trust, emphasizing the need for grassroots movements and genuine democratic processes within the party.

• Final Thoughts: Saagar and Krystal reiterate their commitment to holding the powerful accountable and providing independent coverage critical in these polarized times.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Saagar on Premium Subscriptions:
  [01:38] "We rely on our premium subs to expand coverage, upgrade the studio, add staff, give you guys the best independent coverage that is possible."

• Krystal on TikTok Astrologers:
  [01:55] "A bunch of astrologers on TikTok who are very popular... asserting that actually they were right and the election is not really over."

• James Zoghbi on DNC Membership:
  [28:55] "Being a member of the Democratic Party means nothing more than I'm on an email list... Nobody asks my opinion."

• Krystal's Critique on Popularism:
  [44:31] "Kamala ran the platonic ideal of this approach, which has been dubbed popularism."

• James Zoghbi on Consultants:
  [32:47] "We have the political consultancy Blob. It's the same people who populate all these campaigns... They're completely out of touch with where the electorate is."

• Krystal on Divisive Politics:
  [46:19] "Focus on basic economic issues. How do we expand the middle class?"

---

Key Takeaways

• Internal Struggles within the DNC: Long-standing members like James Zoghbi highlight a profound disconnect between the DNC's leadership and its base, pointing to financial mismanagement and overreliance on consultants as major issues.

• Media Shifts Post-Election: Traditional liberal media outlets are experiencing significant viewer declines, while independent left-leaning platforms are gaining traction, signaling a shift in how liberal audiences consume news.

• Strategic Failures of the Democratic Party: The Democratic Party's focus on popular policies without a unifying, divisive narrative has led to electoral setbacks, contrasting sharply with the effective yet divisive strategies employed by Republican figures like Donald Trump.

• Rise of Conspiracy Theories in Liberal Circles: Unsettling trends on platforms like TikTok show that even liberal communities are not immune to election-related conspiracies, adding complexity to the political landscape.

• Call for Grassroots Reforms: There's a pressing need for the Democratic Party to undergo significant internal reforms to become more democratic, transparent, and aligned with the working-class base to regain electoral viability.

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This episode of Breaking Points provides a critical analysis of the Democratic Party's current challenges, the evolving media landscape, and the broader implications for the upcoming election cycle. Through incisive discussions and expert interviews, Krystal and Saagar offer listeners a deep dive into the fractures within liberal institutions and the strategies needed to address them.

Transcript

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[Crystal]

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[Sager]

We rely on our premium subs to expand coverage, upgrade the studio, add staff, give you guys the best independent coverage that is possible. If you like what we're all about, it just means the absolute world to have your support. But enough with that. Let's get to the show.

[Crystal]

So there are some very interesting things happening over on liberal TikTok that we wanted to update you guys on. First of all, I'm not really on TikTok, so I was not aware of any of these phenomena. But apparently there are a bunch of astrologers on TikTok who are very popular, who are very confidently predicting that Kamala Harris, because of where her sign, was in alignment with whatever was gonna win the presidential election, and they're having to grapple with that and People who believe them are also having to grapple with that. And apparently a number of these TikTok astrologers are asserting that actually they were right and the election is not really over. It cannot possibly really be over. It's simply unimaginable that they read the stars incorrectly. Let's take a listen to a little bit of that.

[Sager]

I'm sad about the election too.

[Crystal]

What I'm especially sad about is the.

[Sager]

Fact that I can no longer Trust.

[Crystal]

A single TikTok astrologer on this app. So thanks.

[Sager]

I don't mean to sound like a conspiracy theorist, but something feels off about this election.

[Crystal]

How did we raise over $1 billion.

[Sager]

In just four months? Packed rallies.

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And they won by a landslide in.

[Sager]

Just a matter of hours. Also, why is he not on Twitter boasting and bragging about himself? When she had her concession speech, it.

[Crystal]

Felt like we weren't done yet.

[Sager]

Like we still have some fight, but we're gonna fight silently. Her walk off. I know that walk off. Hmm.

[Crystal]

The fact that almost every witch, every astrologer, every medium, every psychic on this app is sort of coming together right now because of this presidential election is incredible.

[Ad]

Because by now we all know that.

[Crystal]

Almost everyone who's intuitively connected in any way woke up between 2 and 4am morning after the election, and we all.

[Chumba]

Knew something was up.

[Crystal]

But at the same time, we all felt a sort of peace and calmness within.

[Sager]

Here's the thing. The astrology girlies have not let us down all year.

[Crystal]

So while y'all accept these results, while.

[Unknown]

Y'All accept what's on this screen right.

[Sager]

Here, I will not be counting my chickens before they hatch.

[Crystal]

So that's happening. I didn't realize you, I feel like, had more connectivity to this, like, astrology trend on TikTok. No, not really, no.

[Sager]

It's only for me.

[Crystal]

I feel more aware of it.

[Sager]

I mean, I've always aware that it was happening. That doesn't mean I was, like, watching it. Yeah, there's a lot of lib stop the steal that is currently happening. Astrology is a big part of it. Another part of it is this clip that's going viral from Joe Rogan.

[Crystal]

Oh, well, no, before we get to that.

[Sager]

Yeah, go ahead.

[Crystal]

Because the Joe Rogan ties into the next clip. But we have another. This is the big lib stop the steal conspiracy, which is this one woman who says she works in tech and her dad called her and she lays out in a nine minute video that went super viral why she believes that Elon used Starlink to change the results in key states. Now, I'm gonna be honest with you. I listened to this video and I really did not understand the argument she was making at all. But let's take a listen to a little bit of that nine minute video so you can get a sense of it.

[Guardian]

With that being said, he sent me a video letting me know that California and other swing states were able to use Starlink in order to tally up.

[Crystal]

And to count ballot boats or voting.

[Guardian]

Ballots in their state.

[Crystal]

Okay.

[Guardian]

Those systems were connected to the Internet.

[Crystal]

Those machines have absolutely no problem tallying.

[Guardian]

Up votes like they have done since.

[Crystal]

The beginning of time. There's a lot more there that she goes into that you guys can listen to and assess for yourselves. But part of what this ties into is this Joe Rogan clip.

[Sager]

Yeah, that's. That's right.

[Crystal]

Because if your theory is Elon was actually using Starlink to control the election results, then you hear this Joe Rogan clip and it really makes sense to you. Take a listen.

[Joe Rogan]

It was interesting because the beginning of the night, no one knew what was gonna happen. So you're watching the first results roll in and there's like this weird thing and then Trump gets way ahead. But you're like, you don't want to, like, get too hopeful, like, how far ahead he's in. He's ahead by a hundred points. That seems like a lot.

[Crystal]

Yeah.

[Ad]

And you're like, what is it? And some channels are like. And then every channel is kind of different.

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, they had different numbers. I was getting a different number off my Apple News Update than I was getting off of CNN. And then I was texting people like Tulsi and J.D.

[Sager]

Vance.

[Joe Rogan]

I was getting a different. Apparently Elon created an app and he knew who won four hours before the results. So as the results were coming in before, four hours before they called it, Dana White told me, Elon was like, I'm leaving. It's over. Donald won. He just fucking.

[Crystal]

He just fucking. Somehow or another, I'm going to go.

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Back into my pod and evaporate.

[Joe Rogan]

I don't know what he's getting, where he's pulling his data from, but he had like the most accurate data in terms of the rural states. Hadn't put their results in yet, but yet Trump was ahead in these states. Como's never going to win those states. So tabulated that and, like, put it all together. I don't know how he did it, but yeah, Dana, I don't even. I haven't even talked to Elon about this. I Don't know, like, the Dana translation. But Dana said he had an app and he was, like, showing him. He's like, it's over.

[Crystal]

And dude just left. It's over. Jon Jones one saying that he just fucking left. So there you go.

[Sager]

Just call me. Here's the thing. Four hours before. So the AP called it at, I want to say, what, 3, 4am Something like that. Okay, well, by midnight, if you're watching Breaking Points where we told you Trump won the election.

[Crystal]

Yeah, we were.

[Sager]

It has to take a genius.

[Crystal]

We're going to that guy.

[Sager]

Yeah. This is a wrap. It's like, he's gonna win.

[Crystal]

We'll come back tomorrow and tell you.

[Sager]

Like, the only question was whether he would, like, by what margin he would win the popular vote. That was literally the only question.

[Crystal]

At midnight Eastern. And there were certain, like, Senate seats and stuff.

[Sager]

Yeah, that was all up in there. And obviously that took a while to call, but, you know, what time would you say? I was like, Trump's gonna win 10 o'clock. Honestly, that's conservative. I would say nothing.

[Crystal]

I mean, we really tried to. Even as it became pretty clear the direction, we really tried to be like, okay, but, you know, maybe we have to do that. Yeah, you have to be like, yeah, you never know. You know, maybe something crazy happens in Pennsylvania. But probably by 10:00, for sure, by.

[Sager]

10:00, I was like, I have a 100% chance Donald Trump is gonna.

[Crystal]

This is pretty much over.

[Sager]

It's game over. Yeah, especially. Cause by that time, PA had come in so hard for Trump, and I was like, all right. And Georgia too, remember? Cause everyone was like, oh, well, Georgia, we're still waiting on. But these initial numbers look really good. So Georgia was the first indication. Then North Carolina was number two. Because North Carolina, it was like, okay, well, the case for the Kamala landslide was Georgia, North Carolina, none of those panning out. And then by 10:00, you're like, pa's coming in hard. And that's it. It's game time.

[Crystal]

Yeah. Once it was like, okay, Georgia, North Carolina. You're like, this probably is going to Trump, but maybe there's something different going on in the industrial Midwest. Then once you see Pennsylvania coming in, it's like, all right, this is not happening. Exactly. On the other hand, can I blame these TikTok girlies? Not really. I mean, listen, what did they watch? They've watched still. The Republican base still. And Donald Trump thinks that he won the last election and offered evidence equivalent to, like, my astrologer said so. And here's a clip of Joe Rogan saying something that I find to be nefarious. So, you know, whatever. Libs have their conspiracies too. And at some point there will be. Because I think if you did have some Democratic politician who is actually willing to indulge this stuff, I think they'd be hugely popular.

[Sager]

Massive.

[Crystal]

I think there's a wide open lane. I'm not encouraging this. I'm just saying that it's inevitable that someone is gonna take up that market opportunity. Not maybe this time cycle, because they're still very invested in the like, we're the ones that take election results seriously. Whatever. But Trump opened Pandora box, Pandora's box to basically every election, whichever side loses, people are gonna come up with. Because in every election there's always weird irregularities, things you can point to and say, well, this doesn't seem quite right. And what about these vote totals? And that doesn't make sense with last time's election. That's the other big conspiracy is like that Kamala got some number fewer votes than Joe Biden. But even that turned out to not really be because a lot of it was just California hadn't counted their ballots yet. Was a big part of that anyway.

[Sager]

There's a lot of D.C. it's flowing down.

[Crystal]

My point, my only point, I think this is the new world that we live in. And while it mostly is on the Republican side, at this point, it's more prom dominant. And as a percentage of the base, I think that we're gonna see an expansion and flourishing of the liberal conspiracy as well, especially as liberals now are also becoming disenchanted. This is a good segue to our next segment. Disenchanted with mainstream media establishment institutions as well. You're much more likely to have a flourishing and embrace of these types of conspiracy on the liberal side too.

[Sager]

Yeah, no, definitely. And I mean, look, it's also been there for a while. There was Russiagate. That was the elite one. That's what they did last time. There was also in 04, there was a huge lib stock steel objection moment. I'm not saying there was nothing to it, but I'm just saying let's ask.

[Crystal]

RFK Jr about that one.

[Sager]

Yeah, you can ask him. He was in on it on Ohio and the voting machines and the Cheneys. There's a whole 2004 HBO documentary about it if you're interested in going to watch. So anyway, it's been there. It will continue to be there. And yeah, I'm sure that some politician will take it up and they will be massive.

[Crystal]

I think the difference is it's really gone mainstream. Oh yeah, and on the right it's fully mainstream. Obviously Trump still hasn't conceded the last election. On the Democratic side, I think it also will be more and more mainstream.

[Sager]

I mean, look, it's like Keith Olbermann, you need to release valve and it will happen. The only question is when and which character will emerge in this. So like you said, we've got media conversation. Let's get to that.

[Unknown]

It's better over here now.

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[Crystal]

So we got a few interesting media shakeout post election updates for you. Let's put this up on the screen. So apparently msnbc, which did very well on election night and eclipse CNN for the first time ever, now they have lost half of their viewers compared to this time last year. She had 54% of their viewers. I believe CNN also completely plummeted after election day. And you know, it's not just this. So you know, part of this is just like liberal depression. Post Trump getting reelected, Kamal losing. This is very normal after election cycles where, you know, the chosen candidate loses. I remember Fox last time after 2020.

[Sager]

Oh, they got bought. Well, there was a stop.

[Crystal]

I was going to say they suffered a significant blow. Not only cuz Trump lost, but then they didn't really think he lost. And then these other outlets, one America Network and these other places were willing to fully indulge the conspiracies in a way that Fox, I mean they only dabbled in indulging the conspiracies. So they took a big hit as well. So in certain ways this is typical. But in other ways I think it is significant and it is different in this sense. I referenced in the last block. There has been a liberal disillusionment with the mainstream press starting. Some of this is, I mean it's justified. Some of their specific reasoning is not particularly justified. So the original angst and agitation was around the reporting, the accurate reporting on Joe Biden's decline. There were a lot of liberals who were very mad about that. And then there's a whole cottage industry of liberals who are very upset many times justifiably so about New York Times headlines. And in their worldview they feel that these outlets have not been harsh enough on Donald Trump. Then the Washington Post Bezos deciding not to make an endorsement in this election was really how many subsidy they lost like several hundred thousand it was like a quarter of a million at least that was at that point. That was like a day or 2in of their paid subscribers. So there has been a real blow to liberal trust of establishment media organizations and there have been some outlets who have been picking up support in the wake of this loss for like the more liberal institutions that have been the mainstays. Our friends over at Lever News, they apparently are doing really well. We can put this up on the screen. D2. I talked to David Sirota yesterday and he told me I could share with you that not only has Master planned their podcast, which you guys really should listen to, not only has that jumped up the podcast charts, but they have seen an 11% overall increase in their paid subs in just the past couple of months. So a huge, huge jump in terms of their paid subscribers. I talked to Ryan at Dropsite also. He said that they have seen, specifically on the free sub front they've seen a massive like multi thousand person surge in terms of drop site news subscribers. And then Nathan J. Robinson, who is a lefty, runs Current affairs magazine, put this up on the screen. He says they've seen a 900% increase in the rate of new Current affairs subscribers over the last few days. He says people know independent left media tells them the truth, other outlets delude them and more vital than ever in combating right wing propaganda. So there's some, you know, some interesting energy that is out there kind of on the left looking for independent outlets that people feel more effectively report the news and you know, share their worldview and also are like with Lever News, I mean these guys are doing actual journalism, Ryan obviously and Jeremy doing really important actual journalism over at job site. And it's stuff that the mainstream press has largely completely ignored like accountability journalism. And with Ryan and Jeremy in particular, big four, big focus on foreign affairs. So kind of an interesting shift that's happening there over on the, on that side.

[Sager]

I can only hope. And look, Russiagate saved their ass last time because this happened last time around too. But this time I don't know, you can tell me psychologically it just feels very different. Oh yeah, last time it was a shock. Trump was a shock. If you're too young, I could not imagine to remember. I will never forget. So I was up till like three or four in the morning, election night. We were working at the Daily Caller office, went home, grabbed a couple hours of sleep, got on the metro. The next morning came to work. It was the death. It was like 9 11, like that's. I wasn't I was too young to remember what it was like to be an adult, but that's what I could imagine it was like to have been around the day after 9, 11. Yeah.

[Crystal]

When I was walking through the airport, I had the same vibe of like people were just.

[Sager]

Yeah, this is insane this time.

[Crystal]

Yeah.

[Sager]

This is like, eh. You know, it's normal. Also, there's no cope this time. He won the popular vote. He won all the swing states. It wasn't narrow, it was a blowout.

[Crystal]

There's no comey, there's no Rosha letter.

[Sager]

They left it all out on the field and they got their asses kicked. And there's. So if anything, there's a reckoning of like, all right, well, you know, we lost to him twice in eight years.

[Crystal]

This was not a one off.

[Sager]

Yeah, it's one.

[Crystal]

It was not a fluke. It's not a, we're gonna get him next time. No, in the end, like he got away with all the stuff and he.

[Sager]

Won and he won.

[Crystal]

Yeah.

[Sager]

And not only. Not just he won the popular vote, like that's a mandate, you know, I mean, I remember, you know, everyone was like, how can this possibly be it? Look at the rnc. You know, we were talking earlier about immigration. They held up signs that said mass deportation at the rnc. Don't be surprised when mass deportation happens. He stood up in front of a sign the day before election. There were only two things that said behind him, end migrant crime and mass deportation. America knew what it was voting for 100%. So it's one of those where to them that's unimaginable to the liberal mind, but now they have to grapple with that. And it's one of those where they're like, what do we do? And the truth is MSNBC has no coherence to explain that strategy.

[Crystal]

That's correct.

[Sager]

And it's because. And look, you can give a left analogy. I have plenty of disagreements we'll continue to talk about over the next four years, but there's a coherence to what you're offering, to what Kyle is offering to. I mean, to even the pod Save guys to what they're offering.

[Crystal]

Yeah, true.

[Sager]

But there is no coherence to msnbc, Morning Joe liberty liberalism that offered a path and got blown out by the American electorate.

[Crystal]

That is such a key point because the Kamala Harris campaign, like they ran the Morning Joe campaign, it was run exactly like Joe Scarborough would want it run. Right. The embrace of fricking Liz Cheney, the obsession with never Trump Republicans, the constant shunning of the base and anything that they would want, the constant shilling for Israel and really basically smearing your own base as a bunch of antisemites for wanting a ceasefire and wanting peace. They ran that campaign, and Joe Biden ran that campaign, and Hillary Clinton ran that campaign, and Joe Biden ekes out on a win. Barely. Barely at a time when Trump's approval ratings were in the toilet. People were getting killed during COVID It was a mess, and you barely eked down a victory. Now it's like, wow, this whole universe, especially the msnbc, CNN universe in particular, but also the Washington Post, New York Times universe, your view of the world was wrong. It was wrong. It was repudiated. What you told us was gonna work, what you promised that these were the people who were electorally viable and this was the path and these were the issues and this is how they should talk about. They did all of that and they lost. They got blown out. And not only that, but you told us that Donald Trump was an existential threat. And you did not act like it. You did not act like it. I mean, especially like Joe Scar. But these people were running cover for Joe Biden and still trying to keep him in the race after that debate. They wanted a 400 electoral college vote blowout. So I think there's just a very justified loss of confidence, not only in those institutions, but in that worldview entirely. So, I mean, it creates an opening, you know, that clearly, like places like Lever News, Dropsite and others are, you know, are there to fill. And this whole conversation about, like, oh, the Democrats need their own ecosystem or whatever. It's like, listen, it may not be as big as the right or as well funded as the right, but it's not like there is no one in the left of center podcast, podcast space. It's just that you've spent most of your time, like, ignoring, shunning, smearing, minimizing that world. And I think that probably is somewhat gonna change. The last thing, just as mentioned, which is kind of funny, Chris Wallace is apparently leaving cnn. I'm gonna put this up on the screen. Wasn't there. What was he there four years? Yeah, three years.

[Sager]

About three. So he came for cnn.

[Crystal]

Oh, I remember. I remember.

[Sager]

Apparently, though, it's kind of misleading when they say he quit cnn. What happened is that they offered him a pay cut and they were like, you can stay, but you're gonna have to take a massive pay cut.

[Crystal]

And vigorous.

[Sager]

He was like, oh, I can't handle that. I Mean, he was getting paid like $7 million.

[Crystal]

Well, this was actually very smart way for him to frame this, to be honest with you. Cause he was like, you know what, this cable news thing.

[Sager]

No, that's.

[Crystal]

This is tired. Like, streaming is where it's at. I'm gonna go out and do like the podcast thing, which. Good luck.

[Sager]

It's B.S.

[Crystal]

Good luck.

[Sager]

First of all, his show is awful on cnn. Very low ratings.

[Crystal]

Anyone watches almost any of these people is just because it's like it's on in the background.

[Sager]

Yes, exactly.

[Crystal]

And that's it. There's no, like, I'm tuning in for Chris Wallace. That's not really.

[Sager]

He had a very low rated show. He tried to do all these weird. With pop culture figures.

[Crystal]

Yeah, that was funny.

[Sager]

He completely lost his lane. Never should have. Last Fox News Sunday. So, yeah, I mean, look, he's like a 70 something year old man. Like he'll be fired. Yeah, exactly.

[Crystal]

Retire, bro.

[Sager]

Multimillionaire. Your father was famous. I'm sure it hurts not to be as good as your dad. It's okay. You know, you're an old man. You've had enough time to reconcile it. At this point, just ride off into the sunset. All right, Leave it to us. We'll continue to fight here.

[Crystal]

I like imagining him over on Twitch trying to compete with Hasan or something.

[Sager]

Yeah, that's incredible. And you and I both.

[Crystal]

I like that. I want him. I would like him to try that, actually.

[Sager]

Yeah, Ask Don Lemon when it's working out for him.

[Crystal]

All right, let's go ahead and get to Jim Zoghbi to talk about his analysis of what went wrong. What is going on at the dnc, the spending, the blaming of voters, the aoc Trump voter. Got a lot of things we want to get to with him. So let's go ahead and do that.

[Sager]

Let's get to it.

[Unknown]

It's better over here.

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[Unknown]

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[Crystal]

We are really fortunate this morning to be joined by James Zoghbi, who of course the President of Arab American Institute and also a 32 year member of the DNC. Am I right about those numbers? Wow, long suffering 32 year member of the DNC.

[James Zoghbi]

They're the suffering ones.

[Crystal]

I think we're all suffering right now. To be honest with you Jim, at least you and I are at this table. I had a number of things I wanted to chat with you about, but I first did want to talk to you about the DNC in particular, since you have such deep knowledge of how that organization works and where some of the problems are. Let's put this first element up on the screen. Jamie Harrison has gotten into a bit of a back and forth with Bernie Sanders. Bernie, of course, came out with a quite scathing indictment of the Democratic Party after Kamala Harris loss, saying that they abandoned working class people. Jaime Harrison, chair of the dnc, described this as straight up bs. I'd love for you to discuss both your thoughts on this particular battle, but also more broadly, what some of the issues that you see are at the DNC and what you think would be important in terms of reform.

[James Zoghbi]

Well, look, I'm going to leave some of the political issues aside and just talk about the DNC first. I grew up, my mom was a precinct captain and I used to go door to door with her and go to ward meetings and on Election Day we'd get poll cards and we'd go to the polls and pass them out. You belonged to something and you felt like this was part of who you were. That's no longer the case. Being a member of the Democratic Party means nothing more than I'm on an email list, I'm on a text message list, I'm on a hard mail list, I'm on a phone list and I get asked for money. Nobody asks my opinion. There is no way to record your feeling about an issue. Dnc, even DNC members. First time we had an actual in all the years I've been on the dnc, first time we had an actual election was when Keith Ellison and Tom Perez faced off after the Bernie Hillary race. First time we had a floor vote and a debate on an issue was at that same meeting when we debated whether we should accept money from PACs that emanated from businesses that violated the DNC positions on oil fracking. Whatever. The fact is that DNC members even were like props who go to meetings and fill chairs. And I can say it because I'm a Catholic. We know when to stand up, when to sit down, when to clap, when to leave. And votes are a done deal. Staff decide what we vote on. When I was chair of the resolutions committee for 10 years, people even Barbara Lee would write a resolution and submit it and the staff would say, well, we're not going to accept that. And I'd say, who the hell are you to not accept it? In the Unity Reform Commission, I was able to get both sides, the Hillary and Bernie side, to agree on a resolution to honor our Bylaws and fulfill our bylaw requirement to annually review the budget and evaluate the effectiveness of expenditures and staff by creating an elected Finance Oversight Committee. Guess what? Staff wrote it out of the final. They deleted it from the final report and would not have a vote on it. And then sent me to the Rules and Bylaws Committee that after I fought and said, I want to vote on this, they said, yeah, we go to Rules and Bylaws Committee, which is peopled by some of the very people, the consultants that I was busy railing about in that proposal. Because every year, every cycle, the DNC spends hundreds of millions of dollars. This year, well over a billion. And guess what? I have no idea where it's going to go. The Harris campaign raised $1 billion is in the red. We will never know where that money got spent. We will never evaluate was it effective or not. People give $3 donations monthly because they think we have no idea where that money goes. And as opposed to being a governing body, like I said, we're props at meetings. And so what has to happen in the future is that the DNC has to be the governing body of the party. And we have to build a party as an organization that people belong to. There has to be financial accountability and transparency. There has to be democratic decision making. So we know where this stuff. I mean, who decided that. Now let's get to the issues. I'm on a tear when I get into this.

[Crystal]

This is go off, go off.

[James Zoghbi]

Who decided that Liz Cheney was the ideal person to campaign with? Who decided that we would give up on the working class and go to suburban, moderate Republican women? I mean, how do those decisions get made? Who thinks that stuff up? Who decides that, yeah, in Pennsylvania we ought to be pro fracking? Who decided that we should give up on universal healthcare? Who decided that we should target our vote getting to constituencies that we could not reach and not focus on people that we could reach? Because I see what Jamie is saying, that yeah, Joe Biden had a pro labor agenda. That's not the campaign we ran in 2024. I dare say if you asked union people how pro union were we, they wouldn't have said so. And on something particular to me, who decided that no Palestinian speaker at a convention because it would be, what, too controversial? When actually that's where the base of the party is.

[Crystal]

That's right. Yeah.

[Sager]

Well, that's something we wanted to ask you about, sir. We have some interesting. There was AOC actually asked some of her constituents, many of whom did vote for her and for Donald Trump. And she was like, why? Let's put this up there on the screen. There's a variety of interesting answers, and you can see there's quite a few, but some are actually quite simple. There you go. It's simple Trump and you care for the working class. I wanted change, so I went with Trump. Blew for the rest of the ballot to put on some breaks, they say. A few others are pointing out very different stuff about war, but a lot of it was about war, foreign policy, Gaza. There were several of those. And so I'm curious for your reaction, considering that Trump did obviously run up the table in the Bronx, but AOC actually was able to hang on to some of that. And she says there, I'd like to talk about the Gaza pieces as well. And we'll make some stories about it later.

[Crystal]

She outperformed Kamala Harris in this district by 22 points. 20.

[James Zoghbi]

A lot of Democrats outperformed Kamala Harris in their districts. And where's the accountability for that? And I don't believe it's Kamala Harris as much as it's the political consultants who run, make the decisions for the party. It's the big donors who contribute to the party and the consultants who get the money and make the decisions about what we do and what we say and what's possible. And they do the same with the candidates. I mean, what we need is control over that process so that these consultants, who incidentally never lose an election, they never lose an election because they make their money, live with the consequences, but they make their money and they come back again two years from now, four years from now, and do the same stuff. Frankly, that's got to change. And on Gaza, I understand completely. Look, I've been polling on this issue for a while, what we call that our coalition these days, young people, black, Latino, Asian voters. They are decidedly against this war and against continuing to fund human rights violations as we do. And we didn't pay attention to them at all.

[Crystal]

Yeah, actually, it would have been so.

[James Zoghbi]

Easy to speak to them, we didn't.

[Crystal]

Let's put E3 up on the screen, guys, because this has some of the relevant data. This is about Muslim voters. Muslim Americans back in 2020. 93% for Joe Biden, 7% for Trump. This time around, 53% for Jill Stein, 21% for Trump, and 20% for Kamala Harris. Well, you.

[James Zoghbi]

I'm going to differ with you on that poll.

[Crystal]

Go ahead. Because why I wanted to ask you is because you've done so much research and polling yourself, you Know how. What did you see? And how significant do you think this ended up being to Kamala Harris's loss?

[James Zoghbi]

Number one, that was a bogus. That's not a poll at all. The demographics of it don't match. Look, from the very. The group that did it, 53% for Jill Stein. If there are 2.5 million registered Muslim voters, which is what that group says there are, and 60% of them turned out, which is 1.5 million. 53% of them is 100,000 votes more than Jill Stein actually got in the hard count. So that's a bogus thing. What we found in our polling was among Arab Americans. We don't poll Muslims overall because it's a very diverse community and the largest portion of which are African American, who I believe did vote for Jill. For. I'm sorry.

[Crystal]

For Kamala Harris.

[James Zoghbi]

For Kamala Harris. I think in the Arab community, what you got was a more even split between Trump and Harris. That's not enough because Joe Biden got 60% of that vote and Donald Trump got a little over 30%. He beat Trump 2 to 1. If Harris had beaten Trump 2 to 1, she might have won Michigan with Arab American votes. As it was, she lost 60, 70,000 Arab American voters statewide, coupled with students and others who stayed home or also voted for other candidates, and you got the loss. But again, that kind of autopsy is not going to be done. And that's when I saw reports that there ought to be an autopsy. And then I saw the people they were mentioning for the autopsy. It's like giving the murderer the right to dissect the body and figure out you don't have the consultants who brought us the mess do the autopsy on how the consultants brought us the message, because that's where it came from. Don't blame the voters. I have an interview in Rolling Stone right now.

[Crystal]

We actually can put that up on the screen, guys. That's before.

[James Zoghbi]

Don't blame the people you let down. I mean, so how do you get to a point where the Republican Party. What's his name, Lindsey Graham, can say we're the party of the working class and Democrats have become the party of the elites? How did that even. How did we get to that point? Aren't we ashamed of ourselves, that we let down the working class to that extent, that they don't see us as their champions, that they see this bigoted, xenophobic, narcissistic, misogynist criminal as their champion? Because he talks to them. And Joe Biden did talk to them. He did I don't believe the Harris campaign did. I think she could have, but the consultants had a different message for her. It was going to be joy. But there weren't people in the country feeling joy. There were people feeling hurt. And why did the consultants not understand that hurt? Why didn't they understand that people felt socially, economically, politically dislocated and unsure of their future? Why did we not understand that and craft a campaign? Why? Because the consultants are out of touch.

[Crystal]

Yeah.

[James Zoghbi]

Here's what I say. You know how Ben Rhodes calls the foreign Policy Blob? People who've been cycled for decades and don't get the world and how it's changed? We have the political consultancy Blob. It's the same people who populate all these campaigns, who make all the decisions, and they're completely out of touch with where the electorate is. And yet they keep coming back campaign after campaign. We see the same faces running things.

[Crystal]

Jim, last question for you. Do you have a favorite for next DNC chair?

[James Zoghbi]

I do.

[Crystal]

Who do you like?

[James Zoghbi]

He hasn't announced yet. He will announce on Friday. But it is a state chair. Yeah, it's a state chair. And I believe that we need somebody who has the commitment to building the organization as an organization. And I believe that the other thing is there ought to be an end to the dominance of the political consultants over decision making. Electing a new chair is one thing, but we've got to have a DNC that is empowered to be the governing body. And I will tell you, I'm thinking of running for one of the vice chair slots.

[Crystal]

That's fantastic.

[James Zoghbi]

32 years and I am up to here with the, you know, banging my head against the wall for change. I decided I guess I'm just going to have to try to raise those issues. I don't know if I'll win, but at least I'll have a chance to raise the issues and I want to do it.

[Crystal]

Well, that is some rare good news for me at least, to hear post election. So always great to talk to you and I hope once you officially jump in and your ideal candidate also officially jumps in, that you'll come back and explain to us why you think that this is the right course.

[Sager]

Good to see you, Steve.

[James Zoghbi]

Take care. Bye.

[Crystal]

You too.

[Unknown]

It's better over here.

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[Unknown]

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[Crystal]

In the wake of Kamala's stunning defeat, Democrats have been studiously passing around various charts and data points to try to make sense of it all. Here's a regression analysis of voter preferences in seven key states. Here's a graph mapping ideological leanings versus district over performance compared to Kamala and Biden. Here's a heat map of the precincts where Trump accumulated the largest eight year improvement correlated with income decile. Listen, I get it. I've done the same. I'm the little a student teacher's pet type. And I too would like to plot, chart and data analyze my way to the one correct answer for how Democrats should look, walk, talk, and act. But to be honest with you, that shit needs to stop because it utterly misses how politics actually works. In fact, this type of focus group, poll driven laundry list approach to politics is exactly what Democrats already do. And you can see precisely how that's worked out. In fact, Kamala ran the platonic ideal of this approach, which has been dubbed popularism. Now, the guy who popularized popularism, David Shore, he actually ran a $700 million super PAC for the Kamala campaign. The basic idea is you pull a bunch of policies, you pick what's most popular, and you run on it like a good little centrist. Kamala eschewed all divisive talk of race or gender. She spent the entire campaign running around with Republicans to convince everyone she didn't actually really stand for anything. She embraced the GOP position on the border. She talked endlessly about how she prosecuted transnational gangs and argued the problem with Trump's border policy was that he didn't construct enough of his vaunted border wall. Seriously, as Jon Stewart argued, though far from running a WOKE campaign, Kamala Democrats obsessively tried to pander to the polls and adopted Republican framing. I only have one problem with the WOKE theory. I just didn't recall seeing any Democrats.

[Sager]

Running on WOKE shit.

[Crystal]

These were the commercials I saw for the Democrats. Sherrod Brown is working to fix our border crisis. Mundair Jones is working to secure our border.

[Sager]

Pat Ryan is restoring order at our southern border.

[Crystal]

I'm Laura Gillen and I'm here at the border of nassau county. We're 2,000 miles from Mexico, but we're stealing the migrant crisis almost every day. We can't let China steal Wisconsin jobs.

[Sager]

Benefits for illegal immigrants.

[Crystal]

No way blocking support for white farmers. I mean, look at me standing with.

[Sager]

Law enforcement against defunding the police.

[Crystal]

I've owned a gun my whole life.

[Ad]

Let me be clear.

[Unknown]

I don't want boys playing girl sports.

[Sager]

You all know me.

[Crystal]

I've never pushed for Sex changes. Well, that's just a weird one at the end there. And don't forget about Kamala Harris. It's not like she was exactly waving around her NPR tote bag. I have a Glock. They didn't do the woke thing.

[Sager]

They tried.

[Crystal]

They acted like Republicans for the last four months.

[Sager]

They wore camo hats and went to Cheney family reunions. Do you know how dangerous it is to wear a hunting hat around Cheney?

[Crystal]

Kamala's campaign could have been designed by a centrist AI fed reams of focus group data polled tested messaging, world's most lethal military opportunity economy coalition of Liz Cheney, Taylor Swift and Bernie Sanders. As Edinburgh Mentum points out over on Twitter, quote, the way people are talking you would never have known. The central pillar of the Democratic campaign strategy was bringing up the border bill that Trump shot down. This was very much the first post wokeness. Democratic campaign was run by a party whose top people read Matt iglesias and gave $700 million to a PAC heavily influenced by David Shore. For this wing to act like Cassandra's is beyond absurd. And I would add that she and Biden routinely took every opportunity to castigate lefty college kids for their campus activism, smearing the prototypical pink haired college kids who happen to be opposing a genocide as raging antisemites. What's more, during the campaign, the popularism centrists, they all thought this campaign was going great. They loved the Liz Cheney strategy. Here is Jonathan Chait in New York magazine. He says the race is close because Harris is running a brilliant campaign. Stop complaining. The centrism is working. But of course, even when Democrats run exactly as Che, Iglesias and co want, there's always some person out there existing in the world and being woke that they can blame for elite Democratic failures and working class abandonment. Now I don't think it's fair to lay all the blame for Kamala's laws at her feet. But certainly she gets gets some of the blame. And so too do those who advocate for this bloodless paint by numbers style of politics. It has failed routinely and now completely. And their capitulation in Republican framing is already a moral and political catastrophe. The core of Kama's approach and that of Biden, the bulk of establishment politics, is to avoid controversy and avoid division. If an issue polls under 60% avoid it. If a previous position drops in support, abandon it studiously. Avoid saying anything that might, God forbid, create a backlash. This approach is wrong. It's brain dead. It's idiotic. As is the saying that politics is about addition, wrong, winning politics that can also deliver anything worthwhile is divisive. The only thing that really matters is getting that division correct. Think about Trump, for God's sakes. He is the single most divisive politician of modern era. Without a doubt, he is also the most successful. He deeply understands his divisive politics, and everything he says and does effectively drives towards the division that serves his political interests and message. On one side are the migrants, Democrats and cultural elites who in his narrative, want to destroy your town, steal your job and indoctrinate your kids. On the other side is anyone who supports Trump against these forces. And Trump alone is of course the politician who can fix the problem. Another divisive politician, Bernie. Now he stylistically of course quite different from Trump, but make no mistake, his fundamentally is a divisive politics. In the language of Occupy, it's the 99% versus the 1%. It's the millionaires and billionaires versus everyone else. Throw in the corporate media, the corrupt establishment, and you've got all you need for a winning, fruitful, divisive politics. Think about it. If you did your little checklist politics telling how popular communist policies are versus Trump's policies, Kamala would win every time. Democrats would sweep 40 states, as evidenced by the fact that paid sick leave, abortion rights and high minimum wages were passed in deep red states like Missouri. But that is not remotely how politics actually works. Democratic pollster Solinda Lake made this point when she explained the difference in how voters saw Trump and Kamala's economic policies. Quote, everybody knows what Trump economics is. China, tariffs, tax cuts. Then you go to them and ask what are Democratic economics? And someone will make a joke about welfare and half the people can't name anything. It is nothing like the Republican brand. Now, this isn't because Democrats had a failed ad strategy. There's some evidence their ad and ground game actually were kind of effective. It's because they have zero narrative. They have failed to create the right divisive politics. And if you don't relentlessly explain your story of the world, your goals, principles, heroes and villains, your opponents, they will happily fill in the blanks. Ergo, she's for they them, he's for you. So what would a better strategy look like? Well, it looks like Bernie's 2016 class versus populism, but on steroids. Democrats need to abandon a bland and offensive unity between the Cheneys and AOC and embrace a division that aggressively excises everyone who puts the billionaire's interests over the working class. There should be purity tests on everything that is core to that war against the plutocrats and a large public purge of those who are on the wrong side of that divide. If you don't agree that billionaires should be abolished, then get the fuck out. If you don't want to tax the rich, get the fuck out. If you don't want to radically increase union power, get the fuck out. If you don't want to implement a universal jobs guarantee, get out. If you don't want universal healthcare, get out. If you do support these things, but you also have more moderate position on abortion, guns, trans athletes, okay, there can be a space for you here. But these cultural issues can never be central. They are distractions because to claim them as central is to void the correct divisive frame and undercut the narrative. The war is not between immigrants and Americans. The war is between the plutocrats and the people. Immigrant and trans panics. Those are ploys to keep regular people divided against each other instead of against the corrupt political media and economic elite who have rigged the system and hogged all the spoils. Elon Musk is out there running around crying about trans people and migrants existing because he wants another giant taxpayer subsidy and an even bigger tax cut. He does not have your best interests, or those of the country for that matter, in mind. Bernie explained this all perfectly in a classic clip, of course, which has recently resurfaced. Take a listen.

[Unknown]

Now, if you had an agenda like that and you went before the American people, tax breaks for the rich, destruction of Medicare, destruction of Social Security as we know it, lowering the minimum wage or abolishing it, how many votes did you think you'd get? Not a whole lot.

[James Zoghbi]

Lot.

[Unknown]

Maybe the richest 1% would vote for you. That's not a lot of votes. So what do I do? I've got a problem. You package it. How do you package it? And here's. I want you to pay attention to me. This is bad stuff. We divide people up by races. Affirmative action becomes one issue. All them black people are getting the jobs that we white people used to have. Split people working class white against black. Instead of working together to create decent jobs for all those uppity women, now they want the right to choose. We'll split people on the abortion issue, we'll split people up on the gun issue, we'll split people up on religious issues. You follow what I'm saying? So you split people up and then they end up. If you're a middle class person voting against your own interests and the rich go laughing all the way to the bank. And they succeed with the help of the media because the media will not talk about how, in a sense, the common problems that Americans face and how we bring people together. And that's what I believe. I believe that on issues like everybody in this room thinks, I think that instead of giving tax breaks to the rich, we should increase federal aid to education. Anyone disagree with that? Well, you know what? Most Americans agree with that. All of you think that every American should be entitled to health care. I suspect most of you think we should not have a trade policy which allows corporations to throw American workers out on the street and run to China. Most Americans agree with that. And our job is to bring people together on common interest. And some of these extreme right wing people, you watch the issues that they talk about, affirmative action, they use to divide. The issue of abortion, they use to divide, the issue of guns, they use to divide. And our job is to say, let's focus on basic economic issues. How do we expand the middle class? This is a great country. Why is it the average American is working longer hours for low wages than 30 years ago? Let's talk about that.

[Crystal]

Amen, Bernie. And of course, there is another figure in American history we can look to who understood this politics of division and reaped massive electoral rewards which allowed him to deliver an American social Democratic program. Talking of course about fdr, who famously welcomed the hatred of those economic royalists who would seek to block his agenda. As friend of the show Army OSA Frimpong points out, plan is actually not that complicated and FDR's economic bill of Rights will more than suffice. It reads, every American has the right to, number one, a job. Number two, an adequate wage and decent living. Number three, a decent home. Number four, medical care. Number five, economic protection during sickness, accident, old age or unemployment. Number six, a good education. That's it. That's the program. Simple to understand, impossible to actually achieve. With the current donor beholden leadership of the Democratic Party, probably the only hope is someone to come in like a bull in a china shop from the outside, like what Donald Trump did. Even Bernie was ultimately way too nice to these people. And since the program is actively hostile to Capitol, the Capitol class will wage a far more aggressive fight than they really mustered against Trump. It is more likely the Democrats take the advice of those who are rushing to throw trans people, immigrants, whoever, under the bus and simply capitulate to Trump's narrative. Many already have. In fact, this path may even be electorally viable in the same way that Democrats became viable after Bill Clinton adopted Reaganite neoliberal framing. But I don't care about Democrats winning. Ultimately, I care about delivering meaningful improvements for working class people, avoiding wars and keeping our democracy donor friendly. Capitulation is a plan to avoid even joining the fight. Sager the John CER clip. Enjoyed that.

[Sager]

And if you want to hear my reaction to Crystal's monologue, become a premium subscriber today at BreakingPoints. Thank you guys so much for watching. We appreciate you. There can be a great counterpoint show for everybody tomorrow and we will see you all on Thursday.

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