Emily Jashinsky (2:00)

We need your help to build the future of independent news media and we hope to see you@breaking points.com.

Krystal Ball (2:08)

So we have some really significant developments coming out of Chicago at this point with regard to that ICE and CBP deployment. So according to the Chicago Tribune, we can put this up on the screen. Those immigration agents are supposed to be pulled relatively soon, or at least most of them. So let me go ahead and read from you to you from this article. By the way, this reporter has done some really great on the ground reporting and has been following the court cases that have been going on in Chicago as well. So he's certainly worth a follow. A follow. So he writes. Federal immigration agents, part of the Trump administration's Operation Midway Blitz, may soon leave Chicago, according to multiple sources who said the controversial mission was rapidly winding down after a contentious two months of enforcement raids that have set the city and suburbs on edge. Commander Gregory Bevino, the top official on the ground leading the Trump administration's efforts to, was expected to depart Chicago for another assignment within days and most of the Border Patrol agents under this command would soon be redeployed elsewhere, three sources told the Tribune Monday. An on call task force composed of FBI and assistant US Attorneys is also expected to close up shop in the coming days, the sources said. In a statement Monday, A spokesperson for the Department of Homeland Security, which is overseeing the operation, said every day DHS enforces the laws of this country, including in Chicago. We do not comment or telegraph future operations. They go on to indicate that some of the people who the federal agents that have been involved in this Operation Midway Blitz would be relocated now to Charlotte, North Carolina. Carolina. So it's not like the, you know, insane and violent and reckless and lawless immigration actions are going to stop. Just looks like they're going to be relocated to Charlotte, North Carolina. DHS is pushing back on this reporting and we can put D3 up on the screen so people can take a look at what they're saying. This is Tricia McLaughlin. She says we aren't leaving Chicago. Since start of Operation Midway Blitz in Chicago, homicides are down 16%, shootings down 35%, robberies down 41%, carjackings down 48%, transit crime down 20%. A lot of people pointing out online don't know if it got a community note or not that these numbers first of all included time period when they weren't even in Chicago and those numbers had been coming down anyway. But in any case, she's saying here we aren't leaving Chicago. Emily I think likely the full force operation that we've seen with the insane Blackhawk helicopter raids and ICE and CBP agents, I mean CBP agents literally shot a woman and then bragged about the number of holes they put in her body. We've had numerous traffic incidents, we've had tear gassing of near children, getting ready for a Halloween parade. Just a lot that has been going on that we've been seeing every single day. I think the height of that will be diminished significantly. That doesn't mean that they're pulling every single federal agent, which is why I think, I mean Trisha McLaughlin is the child. Just lie anyway. But I think that's probably what they're hanging their hat on to say, like, oh, we're not really technically leaving.

Emily Jashinsky (5:12)

Yeah, I agree with that. I mean, it's been a similar situation here in D.C. i don't know how much you've noticed this, Crystal, but the National Guard presence isn't totally gone, but it's diminished so, so significantly. And actually I think, I don't know to what extent this will be a problem for the administration, but it feels like homicides unfortunately are starting to tick back up as well. Just three, I think, over the weekend in some really brutal, awful crimes. So I don't know how they're gonna start. They've sort of put themselves, I'm just thinking about this even from a PR perspective, but with places like Chicago and Washington D.C. where they had this big surge. First of all, their own base is not happy with the pace of deportations. They say they're at roughly like 2 million self deportations, which is obviously part of the goal with the show of force that you're seeing in these cities. But also they think about 500,000 total deportations. And based on where the base thought those numbers were going to be, this is not even doing it for the hardest core mass deportation people in MAGA world who are getting annoyed, honestly with Kristi Noem's social media designed content, designed videos to kind of prove how tough the administration is being. Sort of, they've sort of set themselves up for a difficult situation even as they go forward in some of those cities by their own measures. Which is kind of an interesting part of it as well. Crystal.

Krystal Ball (6:48)

Yeah, and what I've been saying is in response to like the election results and the referendum really against this administration is unfortunately, I think people will accept a lot of authoritarianism if their material needs are being met. So they may not like seeing, you know, children tear gassed, but unfortunately, I think if you felt like, but I'm able to pay my rent or I'm able to buy a house or I'm able to afford healthcare or my wages are going up, you know, I guess I'm just gonna have to deal with that. People are not looking like they didn't vote for you. Including your own base who are fully on board with mass deportation. Now, they did not vote for you for some ASMR deportation video. They didn't vote for you just so that the DHS account could Nazi post every day. Right. So, you know, even for the hardest core supporters, this is starting to leave them. And for the rest of America, it's very Clear. They are completely appalled. They're appalled by your lack of focus on their lives. They're appalled by your sadism. They're appalled by the fact that you wanna put absolute cruelty and horror on display every single day. And I know the idea is that this is going to lead to a bunch of self deportations. And guess what? It has, and I would ask people, has that led your life to being any better? Because the sale of this immigration crackdown is that it's these people's fault that you're struggling. It's their fault that housing is too expensive. It's their fault that health care is too expensive. It's their fault that the job market isn't what it should be. Well, guess what? Yeah, deportations are pretty high. The border is closed, effectively, no more asylum cases coming in. Unless you're like a white South African, apparently. And then you have had success in getting people to quote, unquote, self deport. So the plan is working. Is your life better? Did that improve your life? And the answer is no. I mean, people say the economy sucks. And so the thing that you were blaming for all of the economic woes, scapegoating this group of vulnerable people, turns out that wasn't really the problem. And voters are beginning to notice, you know, having these mass thugs in the street is actually creating more lawlessness and chaos and sense of unsafety than I was experiencing before. So I think it's noteworthy to me that I think the timing of the winding down of this operation probably has to do with two things. Three things. Number one, the intense pushback in Chicago. Chicago residents have really been galvanized and the political class there as well has been quite galvanized. Number two, the election results being so clearly against the Trump administration on every front. And then number three, it's getting really cold in Chicago and they're probably like, you know what we don't, like, we don't really want to be out here in the streets anymore. This is, this, you know, violent sadism is no longer as fun as it was earlier. We've got a clip here of J.B. pritzker, the governor of the state, talking about this reporting. This is D2. Let's go ahead and listen to that.

J.B. Pritzker (9:56)

The question was about Greg Bevino and CBP possibly leaving Chicago. I read the same thing. You know, they don't communicate directly with us and never have. All I can say is that, you know, whether it was the loss in the elections a week ago that's led to Donald Trump deciding to pull cbp out or the fact that Greg Bevino is a snowflake on a day when you can see some snowflakes. Whatever it is, the people of Chicago have deserved better than having CBP and Greg Bevino in this city. But I would not say that we're now going to be free of these terrorized neighborhoods because ICE and CBP probably will still be here though they will have fewer people and we'll have to continue to protect our neighbors and our.

Krystal Ball (10:47)

Friends and our family at the same time. DHS really keeping their eye on the ball and focused on the important things such as, quote, tweeting me online. We could put D5 up on the screen. So I tweeted out this video of. And we'll show you the video in a moment so you can judge for yourself what is going on here. But a video which appears to show ICE or cbp, some federal immigration agent shooting tear gas into a car that is just driving by. And in the aftermath of that, there was a one year old in the car who gets hit with this tear gas. The family later said they had to take her to the hospital. They were worried about her airwaves closing up because of course little children, very vulnerable, vulnerable to these sorts of chemical weapons effectively. And so I said they dumped pepper spray on a one year old baby. Demons, actual demons. I stand by that. And then Homeland Security quote, twits me and says DHS law enforcement does not pepper spray children. Here are the facts. During an operation, rioters began throwing objects at agents and blocking the road. This did not occur in a Sam's Club parking lot. Border patrol deployed crowd control measures, that means pepper spray and safely cleared the area. So they're claiming that the they did not in fact pepper spray a one year old and that the whole presentation of this video is not correct. So let's go ahead and put the video up. You guys can judge for yourself of what happened here. This is the aftermath. This is the little baby who is being comforted by her mother and clearly distressed here after this event. And so here is the incident. So they're just driving and you can see they have a window open and whoever this is, isis, dbp just dumps pepper spray into their window. Now these are not, these are lawful residents. They were not protesting.

Emily Jashinsky (12:39)

They're citizens.

Katie Wilson (12:40)

Actually, according to the report, they're citizens.

Krystal Ball (12:42)

Exactly. And let's put the next piece up on the screen. There was a news report about this incident and spoke to this family and the family basically said we were going shopping at Sam's Club. And saw that there was some sort of something going on here. So we went to turn the car around and as we're trying to drive away, that's when they, you know, dumped this pepper spray into their vehicle. And, you know, everyone in the vehicle, including the one year old baby, is affected. This comes after too. Emily. There have been court orders saying you cannot use pepper spray in this insane way that you've been using. Like you should be using it incredibly rarely. You have to issue multiple warnings before you deploy it. And you are not allowed to just be using these aggressive riot control tactics whenever you feel like it. So when I talk about them being lawless, this is a perfect example of that where, you know, there was no warning to this family. This family did literally nothing wrong. They just happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. They were trying to, you know, leave the scene and like, okay, you guys are doing whatever you're doing, we're getting out of here. And that's when they're hit with this pepper spray, according to what they told local press. So, you know, just unbelievable stuff.

Emily Jashinsky (14:02)

So reading from this local report, this is a local PBS affiliate, there's a sentence in here where it says, it is unclear how a family driving the opposite direction as the convoy of vehicles driven by federal agents on a major thoroughfare could pose an immediate threat to agents to merit the use of crowd control weapons. And I think that that rings pretty true. That is clearly. I mean, the little girl has clearly been pepper sprayed. You can. That's the typical reaction to pepper spray. It's awful to see it on a one year old. But your point about the lawlessness. Crystal, listen, I think this is an important one. And I'm saying that as somebody who like actually believes that you have to do something about this. Everyone defines like quote, mass deportations differently. I do think that there should be significant deportations. I don't know what deportations really means. I don't think the administration or anybody who's promising to do mass deportations really knows what that number means, as they constantly are trying to redefine what it means. But when you do it lawlessly, first of all, you completely lose support for the overall project. And it's wrong. It's just, it's wrong. It's plainly wrong. It's not American. And it's a real problem when you're trying to do things so, so quickly that you have like very little control over or concern for the way that it's being played out on a local level. So I Mean, of course there are going to be people who protest these deportations that put themselves and others in dangerous situations. But that's obviously not what we're looking at in this case. There are some cases where you can look at that and say, you know, the, this is. There's a legitimate question as to who was being unsafe in the presence of law enforcement. This is not one of those situations whatsoever. They didn't check to see who was in the car. They saw what looked like a Hispanic male and dumped pepper spray into the car. He's a citizen.

Krystal Ball (16:01)

That's exactly right.

Emily Jashinsky (16:01)

He's a citizen and he's a family with a little girl in the car. And they don't even. They're driving by so quickly, they wouldn't have even known.

Krystal Ball (16:08)

Yeah, that's. That is exactly right. And you know the other thing that's interesting? First of all, DHS just lies. They just lie routinely like it's nothing. We can all literally watch the video, it's attached to my tweet, and see that what you're saying is not true. Like, we see it or what's happening.

Emily Jashinsky (16:24)

Is that they're getting lies from local people who are implicated and could potentially be legally implicated, and then they repeat them and. Which is not okay either way. But that's what, like, I just. It's, it's.

Krystal Ball (16:35)

But like, they could also watch the video. You know, it's right there. You can watch the video, judge for yourself, maybe decide whether this is the hill you want to die on. But the other thing that's interesting to me is that they even want or feel the need to push back, which in the past they didn't. You know, I mean, it's a new thing I see not just with me, but with other people posting things online. They're quote, tweeting and putting out their narrative about the story, et cetera. And so, you know, to me, it is an indication that they realize that this is, you know, people aren't just going, oh, that's so base that you tear gassed a one year old. Base, base, base. They're like, what the fuck is wrong with you? And feel at least some level of, oh, we better come up with some kind of a justification here for what looks to be a horrible act.

Emily Jashinsky (17:18)

That little girl's an American. She's an American. According to the reports, she's an American.

Krystal Ball (17:24)

There you go.

Emily Jashinsky (17:25)

Wouldn't do anything wrong.

Katie Wilson (17:25)

Was just in a car for period.

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Krystal Ball (19:29)

I turned off news altogether. I hate to say it, but I.

Emily Jashinsky (19:33)

Don'T trust much of anything.

Sagar Enjeti (19:36)

It's the rage bait.

Krystal Ball (19:38)

It feels like it's trying to divide people.

Emily Jashinsky (19:43)

We got clear facts. Maybe we can calm down a little.

NBC News Anchor (19:48)

NBC News brings you clear reporting. Let's meet at the facts. Let's move forward from there. NBC News reporting for America.

Emily Jashinsky (20:00)

All right, Crystal, let's move on to the affordability question. Ben Shapiro was on with friends of the show Trigger Notch. I think I can say that right? We have that relationship.

Krystal Ball (20:10)

Yeah. They're definitely gonna watch this, by the way.

Emily Jashinsky (20:13)

Well, it is important, of course, to watch before you react, as they reminded us. When was that? A couple of months ago.

Krystal Ball (20:22)

I don't know because I didn't watch.

Katie Wilson (20:24)

So that's great.

Emily Jashinsky (20:26)

Have you ever been to the Trigonometry studio?

Krystal Ball (20:29)

All right.

Emily Jashinsky (20:31)

You've never been.

Katie Wilson (20:31)

All right.

Emily Jashinsky (20:32)

Ben Shapiro was on Trigonometry and weighed in on the affordability question in a way that we might make for a fun little conversation here about what actually can be done. Nuts and bolts, meat, potatoes. To make the country more affordable. Affordable for everyone. Crystal and I'll probably disagree in different directions on this, but I think we may have more agreement than we realize. Let's go ahead and roll this clip of Shapiro talking about affordability.

Sagar Enjeti (20:57)

Affordability is not like Beetlejuice, where if you just say it over and over, it suddenly arrives. You actually have to pursue policies that are likely to alleviate an affordability problem. But if your solution is always give me more power, and it does seem like that is the solution of the day from both sides, actually, then you're likely to just continue penduluming one side to the other, because people don't want to learn the actual lesson, which is if you. If you actually want affordability, then either you have to change policies or change locations. Those are really the only two things. And. And also, I think, more broadly, it's not about affordability. We have trained an entire generation of people to believe that if their lives are not what they want them to be, it's the fault of systems, as opposed to decisions that are in their own control.

Katie Wilson (21:39)

I mean, I was looking around at.

Sagar Enjeti (21:40)

Property prices, real estate prices in New York. I'm doing pretty well for myself. I feel kind of poor looking at those. Oh, no, it's not. And I'm not saying it's not affordable. It absolutely is unaffordable. If you're a young person and you can't afford to live here, then maybe you should not live here. I mean, that is a real thing. Yeah. I know that we've now grown up in a society that says that you deserve to live where you grew up, but the reality is that the history of America is almost literally the opposite of that. The history of America is you go to a place where there is opportunity, and if the opportunities are limited here and they're not changing, then you really should try to think about other places where you have better opportunities.

Emily Jashinsky (22:16)

Okay, So I absolutely hate that last part of the argument. That's probably not As a present.

Krystal Ball (22:20)

All right, good. Because I was a little worried.

Emily Jashinsky (22:23)

No, I mean, that's actually one of the arguments that I think is the least conservative and the most detestable argument to hear from conservatives. Because one of the reasons, I think, places. New York City's not the best example of it. DC Is a pretty good example of it. A very transitory city. But also San Francisco, places like that. One of the reasons that we see so much malaise in those cities is that the people who grew up and have family there can't afford it and move away. And you have people who are sort of in and out for five years, 10 years, don't really care that much in the way that you care about the place that you grew up, because you're part of that social fabric. You know, people who know people on city council. You go to church with people, or you're in the PTA with people, or that person was your teacher. Crystal. You know this because you live this. This is like. It does make a difference. No matter what you say, it makes an absolutely significant difference. It makes better communities. And communities is an important part of what lifts people into a sort of satisfying and fulfilling life. Maybe you can actually just speak to that a moment, because, again, you do live that.

Krystal Ball (23:28)

Yeah, I mean, I'm a person who values very much place and values very much. I live and I'm raising my kids in the very same town that I grew up in. You know, my kids are in class with the kids of people that I graduated high school with, like, and went to preschool with. Yeah, I mean, literally. And, you know, I moved, wanted to be here in particular, because my parents are. Are getting older, just celebrated dad's 90th birthday. So I wanted to be close to them, and I wanted my kids to be able to be close to them. But. But I love the feeling of having that connectivity to this specific place. It's hard to describe the feeling, but it is a very rooted feeling. And that loss of community in our country, which has been tracked all the way going back to Bowling Alone, which this seminal sociological study of the way that we're all sort of coming apart, and all of that accelerated, of course, by social media and smartphones. And I think it is an affirmative value that we should aspire to, that if people want to be able to live and raise kids in the places that they're from, that, you know, that's something we should value as society. And there's nowhere. I mean, on the one hand, rural areas have been decimated because of the free trade regime. So, you know, a lot of places don't have opportunity. So people feel they have to move then to a New York City. Because Ben Shapiro says that, well, you go where the opportunity is. Well, where do you think the fricking opportunity is? It's places like New York City. But then you get there and you're living in a shoebox and you can't afford to make it. So it's like, damned if you do, damned if you don't. This is a. I think liberals have had a blind spot for that importance of place and that being an affirmative value. And then the economic elites over the past 40 years, their view has always been, is they're destroying jobs in these various places. Like, like, basically big deal, creative destruction. I guess you just need to move away. So they, of course, you know, haven't had any. Any appreciation for the importance of community or, you know, they also, I think, find it easier to, like, control and make you and, you know, make it so your whole life is your job if you are uprooted from a place in a community that has meaning for you. So it serves them on that end as well.

Emily Jashinsky (25:46)

Yeah, you know, Ryan and I were texting on Friday, and I was looking for a movie to watch. And I asked him, you know, what should I. Bowling for Columbine and Roger or Roger and me? Because I was.

Krystal Ball (25:58)

I'm just going, Roger and me.

Emily Jashinsky (25:59)

I'm working through my list. And Ryan's like, you gotta watch Roger and me. I'd never seen it before. And, you know, I'm from the upper Midwest, outside of Milwaukee. And watching that movie, it's like a really emotional experience because you look at what happened to Flint, you look at the way the people who were in the auto industry were treated. It didn't make for. They weren't able to just, like, find jobs. A lot of them, you watch it, they're leaving Flint. They're leaving and going to other places. And what you take with you when you do that is this, like, real love for your community. And it makes worse businesses. It makes, like, small businesses in a local community operate differently than massive global companies, which bring with them all of the problems, by the way, that conservatives hate about global governing organizations, whether it's like the World Economic Forum or the United Nations. There's just something that is completely detached, indifferent. And it's much easier to do mass layoffs. And conservatives will say, okay, well, that means it's much easier for you to be more efficient. But efficiency isn't the end of the economy. Nobody just believes the economy should exist only for the sake of efficiency. And I say nobody. But some people, of course do. They're just a minority. Hardcore libertarians basically are the ones who will tell you that. So I wanted to put this chart on the screen because one of the things Ben talked about was how both sides are basically trying to consolidate power. And that has created a less affordable America. And this chart is from AEI. It gets updated like every six months. This is the 2022 version of it from the American Enterprise Institute. Mark Perry, who's an economist at the American Enterprise Institute, it's a little bit of an inkblot test. You can kind of look into it. You can read into it a lot of different things. Stoller and I were going back and forth about how you can read antitrust into this chart. But what you see is you look at overall inflation and then you can see certain things that have gotten more expensive since 2000, and certain things have gotten less expensive, so more affordable versus more expensive since 2000. And everybody knows this in their hearts. This chart hits you like a ton of bricks when you see college tuition just going up so high and then TVs going down so low. 97.7% drop in the affordability of TVs, nursery school, childcare going up, medical care services going up, college tuition, food and beverages going up. And then you see computers, software, toys, TVs, clothing, new cars roughly going down a little blip around the COVID time period. And I think the reason that I think Ben, in a sense is correct, this chart points to it from my perspective is that I really do worry about subsidies in the, like, Mom Donnie era, New York City, making things in the long term less affordable. This is a huge part of the debate we're having right now about the Affordable Care act subsidies and Obamacare. Subsidies really can create oligopolies. Like they actually do have that effect. I think it's been pretty clear with college tuition that subsidies have created little incentive for these colleges to compete with one another on tuition price. And so I do think that should be part of the conversation. I don't know, Krystal, how you feel about it, but the question for me as a conservative is like, well, if the status quo is also miserable, which is the case with health insurance, then you can't just ask people to wait until there's some type of comprehensive, conservative, market based solution in six months or six years. People don't deserve to have their premiums spiked because the system is failing. And Just shoulder that on the promise that someday you'll do a reform to the subsidies. I don't think the subsidies are a great option right here. I don't think just subsidizing housing, freezing rent. I don't think that those are good long term options. And so I think, you know, that's a blind spot in some ways I think for the progressive left. Although Mamdani is kind of interesting because he engages in the abundance conversation in an interesting way. But neither you or I are like full abundance people. But we're also.

Krystal Ball (30:11)

I'm. Yes. And on abundance.

Emily Jashinsky (30:12)

There we go. There we go.

Krystal Ball (30:13)

Right. You got to do the. But you also have to. And they're focused on like you actually need to deliver agreement. But their lack of focus on you're gonna have to confront capital is where that analysis falls short.

Katie Wilson (30:27)

Right.

Krystal Ball (30:28)

I think you're right about subsidies. And to me though, I don't see that as progressive left. I see that as neoliberal.

Emily Jashinsky (30:34)

Perfect.

Krystal Ball (30:35)

That's a. We're gonna do a tax credit and we're gonna give you, we're gonna. Okay. Obamacare.

Emily Jashinsky (30:39)

Obamacare.

Krystal Ball (30:39)

We're gonna subsidize it. Right. And look better than nothing. Right. It's a band aid though. It's absolutely a band aid. And if you're going to wait for your conservative market based solution, you're going to get things like a 50 year mortgage we have left to the market. Instead of having our own values and priorities in the way that for example, China has, we have said we are going to outsource our thinking and our values to the market. And all the market does is says, great, we're going to figure out how we can bilk you for all of the money that we possibly can and consolidate power and wealth among a very few people. And that's how you end up up broadly with the system where the core building blocks of a middle class life, housing, healthcare and education are wildly unaffordable because we can't as a country say, you know, what, put the like, the profitability aside. These are things that are just basic goods and values that everyone should have access to. And we're going to do what we need to do to make sure that that is the case. So, you know, your, your comment about subsidies is absolutely correct. I don't disagree with that at all. Where I would disagree is so for example, with college education, Zoran Mandani and Bernie Sanders wouldn't be saying that's why we need to, you know, have a better student loan program. They'd say that's why we need free college education. Free, you know, public colleges that are free and available to everyone on housing. They wouldn't say, you know, that's why you need an extra tax credit for affordability. I mean, they may be on board with those sorts of things, but they would say we need more direct government building of social housing so that we can surge affordable housing into the market and don't have to wait for some developer to decide that it's in their best financial interest to do it. And by the way, when they do, they're gonna build luxury high end condos, not starter homes for young families. You know, so. And on healthcare, obviously they're not looking like, yes, they'll support subsidies in the short term just so people don't 15 million people don't lose their healthcare or whatever the number is, is that's not their long term solution though. What they would say is Medicare for All. We have to tackle putting profit at the center of our healthcare system instead of health and care. So, you know, to me what you're pointing to is the failures of a neoliberal Democratic party that doesn't want to confront capital, wants to deal with some problems and sees the, you know, sees the pain and is empathetic, wants to deal with the problems, but doesn't want to confront capital. And that's where all of these weird subsidies and tax credits and if you're this kind of business owner in this kind of town, weird, bizarre, piecemeal, non universal programs ultimately come in.

Emily Jashinsky (33:22)

Yeah, and I think probably where you and I have, and Sagar and I and Ryan, you have like more fundamental disagreements is on. Like I still have a really hard time with Medicare for all and like seeing that or feeling comfortable with like the level of quality that a program like that would look like the same thing with all kinds of things at public colleges, that sort of thing. But my position on Medicare for all over the last several years has been, will it be more miserable than the already miserable system that we're in? And I don't know that the answer to that is no, because this system sucks. It sucks and it is great for people who continue to profit off of it. And that does go in both directions. I mean, the biggest enemies of capitalism, this was a common sentiment in the Gilded Age, by the way. The biggest enemies of capitalism are the capitalists. And that's how you end up with people reflexively going towards subsidy regimes because they're Band Aids. And it's understandable that people are looking for Band AIDS when they're bleeding out. And so actually the capitalists continuing to prioritize themselves over. Let's bring this full circle, the public, their communities. Michigan's such a good example of this. Such a good example. You mother effing capitalist. Why do you think you got Trump? You didn't want Trump. Why do you think people voted for Trump? Well, it's because of what you did to Michigan. It's because of what you did to Wisconsin. It's because of what you did to Pennsylvania. Do you think the country is healthier because of any of this? Because you pushed people to the brink of desperation that they voted the host of Celebrity Apprentice into the presidency? No. And it's not. And there's been zero self reflection about their policies, whether they were subsidy band AIDS or whether they were bailouts for the auto industry, whether they were complete, you know, just treating people like widgets and abandoning communities that had lifted them, lifted their profits and supported them and been a part of their team and taken pride in working for Milwaukee and thinking about like Master Lock. But if you're in Michigan, gm, those types of things, things, it just, I'm talking about it, I'm almost crying. It's just so horrible. And there's no reflection on it whatsoever from the capitalists themselves. And again, that was a common sentiment in the Gilded Age, was that the capitalists were the enemies of capitalism. But nobody wants to, even after Donald Trump gets elected and Bernie Sanders almost gets elected, nobody wants to talk about that.

Krystal Ball (36:00)

Well, let me say that what was done to Michigan, what has been done to small towns and small cities, the hollowing out across the country, the deindustrialization is going to look like child's play compared to what they're planning with AI now maybe AI is just a big hype and a bubble and it pops and there's, you know, massive economic fallout and chaos, which is a horrible outcome, but doesn't end up with all human labor being replaced. But you know, those are basically the two directions. But their, their goal is to make everyone irrelevant. That is, you know, we talk about like late stage capitalism. Like that is actually their end state that they're trying to achieve. Because the whole history of labor and capital is that capital basically hates labor, wants to pay them as little as possible, work them as much as possible, like not that let them have maternity leave or paternity leave or sick leave or whatever. It's this adversarial relationship and they would love nothing more than to make it so they don't have to deal with us at all. And the level of power and wealth that would flow to them in that scenario is just, I mean it's beyond anything that we have even come close to seeing before in human history. That's what they're aiming for. I mean that is the goal and that's the market based solution. And I think a few of them realize, like, if we're going to pull this off, we're going to have to give them like a universal basic income or throw them some crumbs or something. Yep. But you know, let's be clear about what they actually want. And you know, I've been thinking of this. We don't have to open this whole can of worms, but I'll just put this idea out there. We can flesh it out more because I'm still fleshing it out myself. But Capital is very happy with Trump. Like they're, you know, Wall Street CEOs are hanging out with him at the White House. They figured out if I just bring him his gold bar in the White House, I can get whatever I want. I got my tax cut, you know, he's, I can, the tariffs are now, you know, being rolled back in any way. I was able to get my car van. So it wasn't that big of a problem for me whatsoever. And the big thing that they're getting, these tech giants in particular is off to the races on AI they think they're going to get whether this is, I mean, I think this is reality. They think they'll get government bailouts to backstop their losses. They think that government is going to affect it, like actively help them with their compute build out and allow them to achieve the grand dream and vision which is to get rid of all of our, like the need for any of our labor. Like that's the goal. Exactly. And so when you hear Shapiro talking about like, you know, his market, like classic conservative market driven solutions, that is the future that the market has in mind for us. That's the goal is to pay us zero, employ us zero amount. That is the driving push. So just be aware that's what he would advocate for. That's what he would say is fine and good and acceptable. And we can get whatever with our pitchforks we can extract from the trillionaires that run the show. It kind of makes. So what I was going to say with regard to the connection with immigration is in the past the anti immigration position was anathema to business because they do abuse and exploit undocumented workers. There's no doubt about it, they love the cheap labor force and they've kind of come to terms with it in Trump's second term. Because what's even better than cheap labor is no labor at all, not having to pay human beings at all. All. So it's part of why I feel like the focus on immigration misses the point. At this point, there is a great replacement theory playing out. It's these tech oligarchs who literally are telling you they want to replace you with a robot. That's the big battle that's going on right now. And I hope, and we've been covering closely on the show, I hope there is a cross ideological coalition that is able to come together to push back forcefully on that view, because it is genuinely existential.

Emily Jashinsky (40:15)

I mean, it's easy to be blackpooled on the right because during the kind of peak woke era is when you saw people in the Republican Party saying, we're done with the Chamber of Commerce and we're creating our own Chamber of Commerce. These capitalists are. Marco Rubio gave this entire speech at Catholic University. It was a wonderful piece of theology and politics where he's talking about the ends of markets are not efficiency. The ends are families and community. That is why markets don't exist for the sake of efficiency. They exist because we create them via our democracy in order to have strong, prosperous families that can flourish and communities that can flourish and people that can flourish. And that's obviously true, but that is not what the tech giant giants believe. And the tech giants, some of them might have these like sincere libertarian positions that I think are insane, but they may like genuinely believe that UBI is, you know, the peak version of humanity, but it's not a conservative belief. It's a, it might be a libertarian belief, it's definitely not a conservative belief. And that's what I think. You're so right, Crystal. Like, that's where this is all heading, is the UBI Band aid is going to be applied in ways that's like, all right, sorry, humans, you guys can't do this as well as our LLMs and our LLMs inside our robots. So just be content with this $2,000 a month or whatever it is and get in your autonomous vehicle. And that's where it's going. And it's exactly what we were talking about, which is when you don't actually want to do the hard work of having a well regulated market, very hard work to do because you're swamped by lobbyists all of the time to create a market that is in their direction one way or the other. Subsidies can be a tool towards that, but also so can deregulation. So that's much harder work to have a fair market and a place where people actually can create small businesses. Or they can have meaningful lives and thrive through the dignity of work. Nope. We're just going to get UV ubi. It's easy.

Krystal Ball (42:30)

Yeah, UBI and no Epstein files. Emily.

Emily Jashinsky (42:36)

That'S the name of your next.

Katie Wilson (42:37)

Book.

Emily Jashinsky (42:40)

Which is that we do have breaking Epstein news to get to. So let's go ahead and move on to that story. Congressman Ro Khanna is going to join us in just a bit.

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Krystal Ball (44:50)

I turned off news altogether. I hate to say it, but I.

Emily Jashinsky (44:55)

Don'T trust much of anything.

Sagar Enjeti (44:57)

It's the rage bait.

Krystal Ball (45:00)

It feels like it's trying to divide people.

Emily Jashinsky (45:04)

We got clear facts. Maybe we could calm down a little.

NBC News Anchor (45:10)

NBC News brings you you clear reporting. Let's meet at the facts. Let's move forward from there. NBC News reporting for America.

Emily Jashinsky (45:21)

We have breaking news for everyone. This morning, the House Oversight Committee's Democrats released several emails from Jeffrey Epstein, Ghislaine Maxwell and author Michael Wolff that offer more insight into Donald Trump's relationship with Jeffrey Epstein. We can go through some of these emails. We're going to put them on up on the screen. My goodness. So first of all, 2011, you have Jeffrey Epstein emailing Ghislain Maxwell saying, I want you to realize that that dog that hasn't barked is Trump. Redacted victim's name, spent hours at my house with him. He has never once been mentioned. Police chief, et cetera. I'm 75% there. Maxwell responded again, this is 2011, April 2011. I have been thinking about that. Another set of emails here. Fast forward to 2015. This is Jeffrey Epstein. December of 2015. CNN is hosting a primary debate for Republicans as Donald Trump is completely rocketing up in the polls. I hear CNN Epstein. Michael Wolff writes to Epstein. I hear CNN is planning to ask Trump tonight about his relationship with you, either on air or in scrum afterwards. I want to just pause there, by the way, for a moment. This is Michael Wolf. Wolf pulling a little bit of what a Donna Brazile like tipping off Jeffrey Epstein to something in the gossip in the milieu surrounding Michael Wolff about a question in a presidential debate. Epstein replies, if we were able to craft an answer for him, what do you think it should be? So basically, Wolf and Epstein are trying to preemptively give Donald Trump a little something to work with that might be beneficial to them in the long run. Here is Wolf, who styles himself as a journalist who is critical of Donald Trump and is something of a crystal. Do you have any, like, do you have any thoughts on this Wolf part of it all? Because it's making me so mad that I can't even really speak to see these emails, it's not surprising in any way whatsoever, but to see how involved he was and then to watch him try to claim the moral high Ground as like an Instagram TikTok celebrity is deeply, deeply irritating.

Krystal Ball (47:36)

Well, I think you see a window into his methods in particular, where, I mean, this is part of how he, he in the first Trump White House apparently was a fixture, like just hanging out there all the time. And clearly he gives people the sense of like, I'm on your side, I'm giving you advice, like, we're in this thing together. And then that's how he ingratiates himself to wealthy, powerful, or in the case of Jeffrey Epstein, wealthy, power, willful and notorious people and is able to write about it. And Michael Wolff has been out there talking about, hey, I've seen pictures of Donald Trump with girls of uncertain age. Here's what Epstein told me about Trump. He also claimed that Epstein had a lot of insider knowledge into Trump's first administration, so still had a lot of connectivity there. In any case, with regard to the, this, you know, this question of, oh, he might get asked a debate question about this. CNN did not ask him about Epstein at that debate. Probably would have been a good question to ask him, but that didn't get asked at that debate or in the scrum. And then do you have the other email, Emily, where they're talking about Trump spending hours with one of the victims?

Emily Jashinsky (48:43)

Yes. So this is from 2019. And this is from Jeffrey Epstein to Michael Wolf. So it says victim name redact, Mar A Lago redacted. Trump said, he asked me to resign. Never a member ever. Of course he knew about the girls. He asked Ghislaine to stop. And this is after, by the way, back in 2015 that Wolf emailed the advice from Michael Wolfe to Jeffrey Epstein about potentially crafting a response to hand. Donald Trump was, I think you should let him hang himself. If he says he hasn't been on the plane or to the House, then that gives you a valuable PR and political current currency. You can hang him in a way that potentially generates a positive benefit for you, or if it really looks like he could win, you could save him generating a debt. Interesting line right there. Of course, Wolf continues, it is possible that when asked, he'll say, Jeffrey is a great guy and has gotten a raw deal and is a victim of political correctness, which is to be outlawed in a Trump regime. Now when he says, of course Trump knew about the girls, this is from Jeffrey Epstein. He asked Ghislaine to stop. That is in the strangest way ever, confirmation of what Donald Trump has said, which is also in the strangest way ever, confirmation that he clearly Knew, as he alluded to in media reports before he was president, before Epstein became such a mythical figure. Trump said Jeffrey likes him on the younger side. He said recently, I think he was on Air Force One within just the last few months saying, yeah, that we. They were stealing girls from Mar A Lago, which is exactly what happened to Virginia Giuffre, who was working at Mar a Lago, was poached by Ghislain Maxwell at Mar a Lago. So these emails, again, these are ones released by the Democrats on the House Oversight Committee. As the government shutdown ends, Mike Johnson is going to face enormous pressure to bring an Epstein vote to the floor. There may even be a discharge petition that goes around Mike Johnson to bring some of this to the floor. So, Crystal, no surprise that we are starting to see these as the government looks poised to reopen, hopefully forcing a vote.

Krystal Ball (50:55)

Yeah. And Trump even got asked specifically, was when you're talking about they were stealing girls from Mar A Lago, are you talking about Virginia Giuffre? And he said something to the effect of, yeah, I think I am. I think that I am talking about her. And so, so it is strange the way that their two stories, in a sense confirm each other because Jeffrey says, of course he knew because we were girls from there and he told Ghislaine to stop. So he knew exactly what was going on. And then you add to that the color of he spent hours with a victim and then him pondering like, why isn't, why isn't Donald Trump getting mentioned in all of the coverage surrounding me? And, you know, I mean, that would be, that would be a sort of head scratching thing given how close we know that their lives were intertwined for years and years where, you know, again, according to Michael Wolfe and Jeffrey Epstein, Epstein and Trump were besties. They were super close. They were hanging out in New York City, they were hanging out down in Palm beach, you know, both living this sort of high flying lifestyle, both of them loving women, in Epstein's case, girls. And so, you know, these paint helped to fill in some of that, that portrait. And yesterday, Sagar and I covered the unbelievable special treatment that Ghislaine Maxwell is getting in her Club Fed prison. First of all, she's not even supposed to be in this Club Fed prison because she's a sex offender. That's number one. Number two, they're providing her with extraordinary perks, what they described as concierge service. One of the prison officials said, I'm tired of being Ghislaine Maxwell's bitch. Because she's getting. She got a fricking puppy. She's got a puppy. She has special meals. She gets to go to the exercise area when no one else is there. She gets to have these long meetings where people bring in computers so she can communicate with the outside world in whatever kind of way she wants. Oh, and lo and behold, she's filling out her application for a presidential commutation. Gee, why is she getting such special treatment, I wonder? I mean, it doesn't take a genius to figure out. Out Trump is afraid of what she has on him, what she would say about him. And so he is directing his administration to make sure you keep Ghislaine happy, do what you need. And every time that he gets asked about a potential partner commutation for Ghislaine Maxwell, he demurs. He will not say one way or another whether he would consider that. Because, you know, as soon as she got moved to Club Fed and started getting this cushy treatment, well, that's when the leaks to the Wall Street Journal and other places about the birthday book and other things, that's when those leaks stopped. So, again, put two and two together. You can likely see, okay, those initial leaks were kind of a shot across the bow, like, hey, here's a little taste of what I might have, what I might be able to say about you. And again, given their long history together and the incredibly guilty and bizarre way that the Trump administration has acted around the Epstein file, you know, it's. I don't think anyone should be surprised that some of this is coming out. And Emily, you know, one example of that is they refused to swear an Adelita Grijalva for almost two months, seven full weeks. They refused to swear this lady in, meaning that that district has no representation whatsoever in Congress, just so they would not have another vote vote on that Epstein discharge petition. Mike Johnson, like, shut down the entire House and ended the session to avoid that vote previously. And the way that this has really undercut their reputation, as though we're outsiders, we're going to shine a light on the truth here. It tells you he is very concerned about what could potentially come out and be contained in emails, in government records, in FBI searches, whatever sort of material they were able to obtain. CIA, Ryan and DropSite have been doing. And Hussein Murtaza, Hussein have been doing the only reporting, by the way, and extraordinary reporting confirming that Jeffrey Epstein, yes, in fact, was an Israeli intelligence asset. So surely the CIA would have a lot to say about this guy as well. And the Republicans, Republicans led by Trump and Mike Johnson have gone to extraordinary lengths to try to keep any of this from becoming public.

Emily Jashinsky (55:18)

So I'm wondering actually if the House Oversight Committee got these emails from Michael Wolf. I think that seems to be the most likely case. It potentially could have come from Ghislain Maxwell, who was meeting with obviously Deputy AG Todd Blanche over the last several months. That's certainly possible as well. Johnson is set to swear in Adelitogral of today, and that's the vote they need for the discharge petition, which Thomas Massie, I believe, Marjorie Taylor Greene, among other Republicans, are among the Republican Conference support. So that gets them around Mike Johnson to a vote demanding a release of all of the Epstein files. And so the House Oversight Committee had that conversation back and forth with Alex Acosta, former Labor Secretary nominee, who dropped out because Vicky Ward's reporting and other information surrounding the sweetheart deal in Florida that happened under his watch regarding Epstein. And the House Oversight Committee asked about that Vicky Ward, quote, from an anonymous source, many people speculate to be Steve Bannon, that Acosta says he was told Epstein belonged to Intelligence and to leave him alone. Acosta denied basically that in spirit, but he wasn't really. I mean, there are a lot of other ways that that question could have been posed to him to get around the technicalities of whether Epstein was an asset or an agent. And who told him what that the House Oversight Committee just did not get to the bottom of in that interview, at least according to the transcript of it that we have. So crystal this story to see in writing from Jeffrey Epstein, that Trump has never once been mentioned by a police chief, et cetera. I don't know what Epstein means when he says, I'm 75% there, but it sounds like maybe he's speculating that Trump is cooperating with an investigation.

Krystal Ball (57:15)

Hmm. I don't know. Yeah, I didn't know what that 75% there piece meant. But I just want to underscore for people why this matters. You know, Ryan and Mazz, his reporting has proven the deep ties that Epstein did in fact have with the Israeli government and Israeli intelligence specifically. You can go and read their numerous stories at this point based on the. The leak of a former Israeli prime minister's emails, which also worth noting, as we always do, any mainstream outlet could have looked at these emails and reported them out. They're all sitting out there for anyone to report on. They are the only ones who have put that aside. So you're the President of the United States and, you know, whatever things you did or you know, you're worried that Jeffrey Epstein knows about, you have to assume that the Israelis know about as well. You have to assume that. Right. And so what kind of pressure does that create in your relationship? How does that impact your foreign policy and the way you conduct yourself vis a vis this state? That's one of the most obvious reasons why this reporting and getting to the bottom of this is so incredibly, incredibly important. Because even if Jeffrey Epstein, there's all sorts of reports about the cameras he had and the sort of documentation he kept, even if he didn't actually have the goods on whatever it is, is that Trump is terrified of coming out about him. And clearly there are things he is terrified of coming out about him. Even if Epstein didn't have the goods, you have to assume that he did. And you have to assume that he was sharing that information with his very close friends, allies, business partners in the Israeli government. So, I mean, that is extraordinary and incredibly important for the American people to know and understand.

Emily Jashinsky (59:16)

I think that's so important because when people say, or I think Trump and then some Republicans who rush to defend Trump and it happened with Democrats under the Biden administration say this is a silly sideshow. It's not in the question of foreign policy. Right. People have important questions on their plate every single day about cost of living and just trying to put food on the table, keep a job, all of that. Yet yes, our foreign policy is downstream of the shadow government in many ways that we aren't quite aware of. And that sounds crazy, but go ahead, read the emails that the mainstream media probably isn't covering because they don't want to go into what looks like a hack from Iran, but one that Ryan and Maaz are confirming is verifiable by talking to people saying, is this these emails, this is you in this email, is this a real email, et cetera. So when you see it put so plainly in those drop site stories, Jeffrey Epstein and Ahup Barack were puppet masters and they were doing it, putting it in writing. We have that evidence for everybody to see. They were actually pulling the strings of geopolitics and foreign policy, willing and dealing in their punctuation, error laden emails, which Ryan says is a power move. I'm not so sure that it's. I agree it's a power move, just reflect actual incompetence. And that is remarkable when you look at it because you see how few people have such disproportionate control over foreign policy. Foreign policy affects domestic policy. So these are enormously serious questions. And I think Epstein is an example of something that is still happening right now with other names that we just don't know.

Krystal Ball (61:09)

And I think that Trump and the Republicans had hoped, they had kind of put this story to bed. You know, it was, it was quiet there for a while. We weren't getting any new leaks. The Republican efforts, Mike Johnson's efforts, at least to stonewall in the House had been successful. It was very much on the back burner. And Sagar and I were talking about this, and I, what I said is, but this is the sort of thing that can erupt back into the public consciousness at any time because it's completely unresolved. And, you know, I think a lot of MAGA that were upset about it first kind of made their peace with it. Kind of like bought into some convoluted like, oh, actually, Trump is playing the deep state somehow, or they're fake, or Clinton, Comey, whatever. They just were like, all right, we're just going to move on. When things like this come out makes it pretty hard for you to just, like, close your eyes and pretend like nothing's happening here. And pretending, like, pretend like this is all fine, especially when you have a vote voice, a renegade voice like Marjorie Taylor Greene out there who is willing to make her own side uncomfortable for whatever reason she's doing it. She is that voice right now, willing to make her own side uncomfortable. So, you know, we talked about the, the MAGA revolt. When you have a president who was just weakened by an extraordinary electoral defeat for his, his party, really across the board, you know, he's effectively already a lame diplomat duck, at least not. Is not legally allowed to run for another term, is aging very clearly in front of our eyes. You know, sleeping through White House events at this point and outsourcing major parts of his administration to his aides seems to only really care about, like his, his parties at Mar a Lago and his renovations. Yeah. When you have all of those sorts of things, then people start to feel a little bit bolder about their criticism and start to be looking at, at and contemplating, okay, well, what is the world after Trump going to look like and where is the place to be, how to position myself in that world. So I think even as, you know, Democrats just capitulated in bent the knee and are embarrassing and all of that sort of stuff. You also have Trump becoming increasingly sort of weakened in his own administration. Approval rating is very low. Some arrows starting to come at him from his own side. Economic troubles and a lot of unfulfilled promises. And then you add this to the mix. It's a pretty challenging landscape for him, I would say.

Emily Jashinsky (63:35)

Right? Yeah. I think after those elections last week, it's becoming clear to the administration that they're approaching the one year mark. And after you get past that one year itch, as we've talked about Crystal before in the show today, you can't keep blaming Biden. I mean, you can, but whether or not you're successful at continuing to blame the Biden administration, people are not buying it. You inherited. Yeah, people are not going to buy it. And you are, Mr. Drain the Swamp. So as emails come out showing you part of a swamp, and then when you campaign, when you're not in power, it's easy to say, yeah, we'll release the Epstein emails, even though Trump was a little bit more hesitant about those than JFK files and such during the campaign. But when you're actually in power, you can't just say like, yeah, yeah, we'll get to that, we'll get to that. You have to look like you're draining the swamp if, if that's the predicate for your political career. And that's where you see the people like Marjorie Taylor Greene and Thomas Massie breaking away from Trump on that particular question.

Krystal Ball (64:32)

All right, guys, very fortunate on last minute notice here to get Congressman Ro Khanna to join us this morning. Of course, he has been the Democrat leading the push to get the Epstein files released. Great to see you, Congressman.

Congressman Ro Khanna (64:45)

Two Breaking point appearances in the same week. Must be my lucky week here.

Emily Jashinsky (64:49)

Our lucky week.

Krystal Ball (64:49)

Our lucky week. Yeah. People were very interested in what you had to say last. I have a suspicion they're going to be very interested in what you have to say today as well. So Emily and I just went through some of the new emails that were released tying Donald Trump directly to Jeffrey Epstein. First question for you is just why are these emails coming out now? What was the sort of chain of events that led to these revelations?

Congressman Ro Khanna (65:11)

Well, you know, I was on Lawrence o' Donnell about three months ago and the attorney for the survivors is the guest right before me and he says, I don't understand why no one has subpoenaed the Epstein estate. And shockingly, Pam Bondi, Cash Patel, and no one in Congress had done it. So I talked to Colmer, I said, we've got to get these documents. To his credit, he subpoenas the Epstein estate and the Epstein estate has been producing these documents drip by drip by drip. And today, of course, comes out the first time some of the email saying that Trump knew about the abuse of these young girls and the guilty conduct. And I expect far more documents are going to be coming out over the next couple months.

Emily Jashinsky (65:55)

Hmm. Is thei mean I was speculating earlier that maybe these emails came from Michael Wolf or Ghislaine. Are you able to tell us anything about that, Congressman?

Congressman Ro Khanna (66:06)

Not the specifics of who they're coming from, other than the Epstein estate, and that the estate has thousands of more documents. But what this really says is we've got to get the full release. We shouldn't be reliant on the Epstein estate to be giving us piecemeal documents. We have the full files at the Justice Department. Those files have all of the interviews that were taken with men who abused these young girls, with people who were involved in the COVID up up. And today, as you know, Analytic Graham gets sworn in. We get 218 signatures and that triggers a vote in seven days in the House to release these files. The bombshell document dropped today, I think is going to increase the stakes of just saying get this out there.

Krystal Ball (66:54)

Yeah, no doubt about it. And just your reaction to what we learned today. So we had emails from Jeffrey Epstein saying, first of all, of course Trump knew about what was going on with the girls because he told Ghislaine Maxwell to stop. He also claimed that Trump had spent hours with one of the victims. You also see him strategizing with Michael Wolf about a potential question to Donald Trump in the debates during 2015. Those questions didn't end up getting asked, but in any case, interesting to see them strategizing back and forth. You see them talking about how surprised they are that Trump hasn't been brought up in the context of Jeffrey Epstein in a more significant way, given their longstanding ties. So what is your reaction to the content of these emails?

Congressman Ro Khanna (67:40)

Well, this whole Epstein class needs to go. The issue in American politics isn't left or right. It's are you for working ordinary Americans? Are you for this Epstein class? And this is what's so important about those emails. It's not just rich and powerful men who may have abused and raped young girls. It's a lot of rich and powerful people who knew that the abuse was going on and did nothing about it and actually still solicited Epstein for funding and were friends with Epstein and just swept it under the rug. And what these emails show is Donald Trump was aware of what was going on and that it was such a culture of abuse that people just thought, oh, this is just the way the world works. Well, their time is up. People are sick of it. Anyone involved in this stuff needs to move aside. We need to have a moral cleansing in this country.

Emily Jashinsky (68:32)

And Congressman, just if this discharge petition goes through, as I think everyone can do the math and expect it to at this point, what ways might the White House and the administration have to wiggle around? What do we expect potentially to see from them? Assuming that they try to continue blocking access to some of those files, what could we expect in terms of their methods of blocking release?

Congressman Ro Khanna (68:54)

Well, first of all, there's a full court press today to try to get one of these Republicans to drop before Adelita Graham gets sworn in at 4pm I'm pretty confident they won't. But it's not done until 4, 4 o'.

Katie Wilson (69:06)

Clock.

Congressman Ro Khanna (69:07)

And then Johnson has dozens of procedural motions. He can try to obstruct it. I mean we, we could spend the whole day talking about the tools he has. The, the confidence I have though is that there are a lot of Republicans, Republicans who do not want the discharge petition tool to be rendered useless. They want to use it to get a bill on banning stock trading. They want to use it to get votes on other reforms. So I am hopeful the coalition will hold to say no, you've got to bring this for a vote. Because if Johnson stops our petition from getting a vote, that will hurt Luna and Chip Roy and any Republican, Republican who wants to bring any bill using that mechanism.

Krystal Ball (69:50)

Congressman, do you have any other plans to, you know, public event awareness raising to sort of focus in scrutiny on the lack of transparency on the Epstein files and on the horrific abuse of these women?

Congressman Ro Khanna (70:05)

We do. We have a press conference that Thomas Massie, Marjorie Taylor Greene and I are planning next week and a number of survivors from around the country country are going to be flying in, some who have not spoken out before. You know, Mike Johnson keeps thinking, okay, if you just shut down Congress long enough, people are going to forget. But he doesn't realize that this story has gripped the American people. They know there was horrific acts that were committed. And I think when they hear from these women again, these brave women next week, it's going to make sure that we have action and an overwhelming vote in the House of, of Representatives.

Emily Jashinsky (70:40)

Well, please keep us updated as always, Congressman.

Krystal Ball (70:44)

Yeah. Thank you for joining us last minute, Congressman, great to see you.

Emily Jashinsky (70:47)

Appreciate it.

Congressman Ro Khanna (70:47)

Great to see you as always.

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Krystal Ball (72:52)

I turned off news altogether. I hate to say it, but I.

Emily Jashinsky (72:56)

Don'T trust much of anything.

Sagar Enjeti (72:59)

It's the rage bait.

Krystal Ball (73:01)

It feels like it's trying to divide people.

Emily Jashinsky (73:06)

We got clear facts. Maybe we could calm down a little.

NBC News Anchor (73:11)

NBC News brings you clear reporting. Let's meet at the facts. Let's move forward from there. NBC News, reporting for America.

Emily Jashinsky (73:23)

Crystal, you have an interview with the likely new mayor of of Seattle that we should get to.

Krystal Ball (73:28)

Yeah, so just a heads up, I recorded this interview with Katie Wilson yesterday. The vote count at that point, she was up by 91 votes in the vote count. Another drop has come since I interviewed with her. Now she's up by a larger margin. I think it's roughly a thousand to two thousand votes. The later votes that are coming in are more in her favor. So the expectation it's probably going to recount just because of the narrowness of the margin. But it looks very likely she is going to be the next mayor of Seattle. Progressive insurgent, taking on an incumbent. So some, some sort of Mamdani, West Coast Mamdani vibes. I would say she's a different character from him, but also really centered. Affordability and housing affordability in particular in her campaign, both as a way to deliver for, for voters across the board and also a way to tackle a chronic homelessness issue that Seattle has continued to suffer from. So with all of that being said, let's go ahead and take a listen to my interview with Katie Wilson. So I am super excited to talk to our next guest this morning. Katie Wilson is the co founder and executive director of the Transit Riders Union. She is also the progressive candidate for mayor in the city of Seattle, locked in an extraordinarily close race with the current mayor, Bruce Harrell. And she joins us now. Welcome to Katie.

Katie Wilson (74:45)

Great to be here, Crystal.

Krystal Ball (74:46)

Yeah, of course. So I've been following your race for the past couple of weeks. You know, there's a incumbent who's more, I think, politically centrist. You're more of the progressive kind of insurgent outsider candidate coming in, very close race all the way along. And as of yesterday, based on the mail drops, you have now taken a 91 vote lead. So first question for you, just give us a little bit of a sense of the dynamics of this race, what ballots still remain and whether your expectation is that you will be the next mayor of the city of Seattle.

Katie Wilson (75:22)

Yeah. So the way that we do elections here in Washington state is that it's all by mail. So everyone mails in their ballots. We also have ballot drop boxes around the city and there's a very consistent pattern that more progressive voters, younger voters tend to vote less late. And so what you'll see is that the election night results, there's actually a fairly large shift between election night and the final results toward the more progressive or left leaning candidate. So on election night I was at 46%. Now I've pulled ahead by 91 votes, as you said. And there's another about 10,000 ballots out there still to be counted, mostly from election day, mostly skewing younger. So we're really hopeful that that margin will Widen. It's possible that there will be a recount because the margin will still be very small. But we're feeling really good about this race at this point.

Krystal Ball (76:11)

Incredible. Absolutely incredible. So talk to us just a little bit for people have not been following this race closely. As I confess, I actually wasn't until the last couple of weeks before the election. Tell people about the incumbent mayor Bruce Harrell, your issues with his leadership and then the platform that you were running it running on as a contrast.

Katie Wilson (76:30)

Yeah, sure thing. So, I mean, my background, I'm a community organizer, a coalition builder. And so for the past 14 years, I've been leading this organization that I co founded back in 2011 called the Transit Riders Union. And you know, we basically fight on economic justice issues. So I've led campaigns to raise the minimum wage to the highest in the country in several cities around King county fought for stronger renter protections in Seattle and other cities around King county fought for progressive taxation. So we have a landmark tax on wealthy corporations in Seattle called the Jumpstart tax that I played a big role in designing and passing. And then of course, public transit. Right. As the name of the organization suggests, fighting for better public transit. And we've won a bunch of affordable and free fare programs for lower income riders for youth. So that's the kind of work that I've done over the years. It's very grassroots community organizing, coalition building. And I really have never had the ambition to run for elected office until this year. And so this early this year, we had an election on funding Seattle's new social housing developer through attacks on wealthy corporations. And our current mayor, Bruce Harrell, was kind of the face of the opposition campaign and he's done a lot in office to try to undermine social housing, which is kind of a new project for Seattle that Agra grassroots campaign put on the ballot last year. And nevertheless, this funding measure to fund the developer passed by a landslide. And so that really showed me that our current mayor, Bruce Harrell, is out of touch with the issues that people are facing in their daily lives. And I think the affordability crisis is really right up there at the top. And you know, when I jumped into this race, I'd never heard of Zoran Mandani. And but it's very clear that there are some similar dynamics playing out across the country where, where coming out of the pandemic with really high rates of inflation, the cost of housing in high cost cities like Seattle is just really out of control. Rents just keep going up and up. Home prices are out of Reach for anyone wanting to buy a home. And then everything else, from childcare to food to groceries, everything is just really, really expensive. And people are feeling that, right? Not just the lowest income households, but people up to kind of middle class people who have decent jobs are just like, can't believe how expensive everything is. So I think that's definitely a dynamic in this race where the work that I've done over the years, what I want to tackle as mayor, is this affordability crisis. And really, we also have this extremely bad homelessness crisis here in Seattle. We actually have rates of unsheltered homelessness that are much higher than comparable cities around the country in the US And I really, you know, our current mayor, Bruce Harrell, he came into office promising to address issues of homelessness and public safety. And I think people are looking around and not really feeling that he's succeeded at that. So that's kind of a local dynamic, but the national dynamic is affordability. And then I think also, obviously, Trump getting elected last fall, right. There's a certain brand of establishment Democratic Party politics which utterly failed to stop the train wreck that was Trump's election. And so I think that there's a feeling that people want new leadership and leadership that's not going to cower like that. And I think our current mayor, he doesn't break that mold. Right. He's been the mayor for four years, but before that he was a council member for 12 years. So he's kind of part of that, that kind of centrist Democratic Party establishment that people are pretty upset with right now. So I think that's also a dynamic in this race. And so for me, coming in as an outsider, someone who's worked with City hall, is familiar with the legislative process and all that, but at the same time is coming in as kind of an insurgent candidate. This was just the right moment for that to work. And it looks like we're going to pull it out by the skin of our teeth.

Krystal Ball (80:11)

Incredible. I'd love for you to dig a little bit more into the contrast in the approach of Bruce Harrell on homeless versus what approach did he take and what did you run on?

Katie Wilson (80:22)

Yeah, and I mean, honestly, this is something that I didn't have super high expectations when he came into office, kind of knowing who he was from when he was on council, but I've been deeply disappointed relative to those expectations. So, basically, the current administration's approach has been to sweep people around the city from place to place without actually getting people inside. So we basically have have thousands of people sleeping unsheltered on the streets. And we have two homeless people in the Seattle area for every one shelter bed. And there's been very, very little focus of his administration on actually opening new emergency housing and shelters so that we can get people inside. Instead, they're spending all of this time and energy just basically telling people, you can't be here and forcing them to move along, but then, like, where are they supposed to go? Right. And so that also contributes to our public safety problems, Right? Because a lot of people have issues with drug addiction, mental illness, and those aren't being dealt with, and you can't really deal with those issues if you're sleeping outside. And so the fact that they're not actually focusing on getting people inside is just really damning in my mind. And people are noticing it, right? Like, there's, you know, people who just residents, small business owners in various neighborhoods around the city who, you know, they. They see that there's, like, an encampment there, and they know that they're like, okay, well, the city's going to come and sweep them, but we know that they're just going to go to the next neighborhood, and then a couple of weeks from now, they'll be back. And so they're. There's this deep frustration with this approach. So what I've been saying on the campaign trail is I'm going to really focus on opening new emergency housing and shelters so that we can actually resolve encampments by getting people inside, rather than just sweeping them around the city. And we know that this works. So during the pandemic, there was a program that several nonprofits put together called JustCare, which basically did that resolve encampments by getting people inside. And at that time, it was kind of temporary hotels that had been repurposed as shelter, and it was very successful. So we know that the vast majority of homeless folks sleeping outside will accept meaningful offers of shelter and support when that's given to them. And that's just not what we're doing right now. So that's really the big difference in our approach there.

Krystal Ball (82:28)

And what do you do with the more challenging cases? You know, people who are suffering from addiction issues or from mental illness who don't want to accept that, you know, that offer of shelter. How do you handle those cases?

Katie Wilson (82:41)

Yeah, I mean, I think we know from practice that that ends up being a fairly small percentage of the homeless population. But, you know, the fact is, we do have levers, right? So our laws around involuntary commitment are governed at the state level. So changing those is pretty challenging. But here's the thing. Like most people who are addicted to drugs, you know, are also engaged in various forms of criminal behavior. Right. In order to obtain drugs or just in order to meet basic needs. Homeless people. That is right. And so we have the ability to, if necessary, arrest people for criminal behavior. And then we have successful diversion programs where. Because we also know that just throwing someone in jail, like, doesn't work. Right. And then they're back out in the street and have been destabilized and are more at risk of overwhelming overdosing. But what we can do is put people into a diversion program where there's basically accountability and there's, you know, shelter and services, but that's kind of like offered as an alternative to the booking and jail kind of route. And so we have programs that, that have been very successful. And so it's a matter of scaling those up. And I think that we can, if we do that well, I think that we can address those. Those tougher cases or the vast majority with them as well.

Krystal Ball (84:04)

And of course, chronic homelessness is a symptom of a larger housing crisis, as you were speaking to, which affects absolutely everyone. What are some of the. Obviously, we all know the Zoron platform. He's freezing the rent on rent stabilized apartments, and then he wants to surge a building bonanza of additional 200,000 housing units. What are some of the things you ran on in terms of housing affordability? Because I know that is a major issue in the city of Seattle.

Katie Wilson (84:28)

Yeah, totally. So there's a few things. So one is social housing, which I mentioned. Right. And. And this is the model which is a little bit unfamiliar in Seattle and a lot of the United States, but similar to Vienna and Paris and other European cities which have had really strong social housing sectors for a long time. And so the idea here is to begin to build a non market housing sector that's mixed income. So here in Seattle would go up to 120% of area median income, which is a fairly high threshold. And then by having this publicly owned and operated, permanently affordable housing, you know, once you get that to a certain scale, that also helps to moderate rents in the private sector. Now, we're a long way from that, but there's. There's no better time to start than now. So part of my platform is really having the city and the mayor be a strong partner in getting the new social housing developer up and rolling and acquiring buildings and developing buildings. At the same time, I also believe that we need to make it possible for the private market to build more housing in our great neighborhoods around Seattle. And so that means working on our land use and zoning of lots laws to make that possible, because we have had very restrictive single family zoning laws in Seattle for a long time, and that's beginning to loosen up a little bit. But we can go a lot further than the previous administration has gone. In addition, so we are not allowed in local jurisdictions in Washington state to do rent regulation directly. So we can't do rent control here locally without a change in state law. However, we do have a law called the economic Displacement Relocation Assistance law, which basically says if your landlord raises your rent 10% or more and you move out because you can't afford it, your landlord is supposed to pay you three times your monthly rent and relocation assistance. So that's nice. And it also disincentivizes large rent increases because landlords don't want to trigger that law. And so one thing that I've talked about is bumping that threshold down from 10% to, for example, 5%. And so that would help to disincentivize those. Those larger rent increases. There's some other things that we can do on the renter protections front, like regulating or banning rental junk fees. Something that happens especially if you have a corporate landlord in the United States. There's kind of the sticker price of your apartment, but then there's all these, like hidden monthly fees or hidden annual fees that are kind of in the fine print. And so you end up paying a lot more than you think you were going to pay. So something that the city can do is also regulate or ban some of those kind of extraneous fees. So those are a couple of other ideas for how we can, like, help around the margins. The city can do more to invest in affordable homeownership programs. There's some other things, too, but it's kind of a whole range of things. Right. There's not one silver bullet, but we kind of need to do it all.

Krystal Ball (87:06)

All of the above. Yeah. Kate, my last question for you is, you know, I'd love for you to zoom out and talk a little bit more broadly about the political trends within Seattle. I saw a tweet about this, so forgive me. You can correct if this analysis. Tweet analysis was incorporated. But basically they said there were a lot of progressive legislators in Seattle. And then there was after Black Lives Matter and the pandemic, there was kind of a backlash. And that's when people like Bruce Harrell and other more centrist types get elected to the city council. And now with Harrell's likely defeat, that wave of the backlash wave has now been swept out by more progressive cohort. And so, first of all, is that sort of accurate, your view of the way that Seattle politics has swung back and forth? And then what is most important to you in order to make sure that there isn't another sort of backlash swing to the center after your mayoralty?

Katie Wilson (87:57)

Yeah, that's a really good question. And so, yeah, I think the picture that you laid out is fairly accurate. So we had a pretty darn progressive city council for about a decade, and that included councilmember, former council member Shama Sawant, who is a socialist city council member. And now one thing to note, though, is that during that time when we had a very progressive council, we had pretty centrist mayors. And so that really that dynamic kind of cramped the council style in a sense, in terms of their ability to get things not just pass, but really like implemented well. And then, yes, after 2020 and Black Lives Matter, there was a, there was a backlash. And so then we had actually our current mayor elected. And for Seattle, very, very centrist or right leaning compared to usual city council this year with hopefully my election, but then also a couple of council members and a new city attorney, things are swinging back in a progressive direction. Now. We have kind of staggered elections. So this year there was only, well, for complicated reasons, three, but normally there would be two at large council positions up for elections. So there's seven district council elections, which will be up for election in two years. So right now, assuming that I win this race, right, we'll have me in the mayor's office and we'll have several very progressive council members. But the bulk of, we don't have a strong progressive majority on the council yet. But that could happen in 2027. Now, in order for that to happen in 2027, you asked about kind of what, what needs to be accomplished in the next couple of years. I really think that, you know, I have a lot of ambitious progressive policy dreams in my platform, but I really think what I'm going to be judged on, what my administration is going to be judged on, first and foremost is homelessness and public safety. And I really think that in the first couple years, we're going to need to drill down and make progress on those really basic quality of life issues issues and show I think we have an opportunity here for people on the progressive left to basically show that we can actually govern. And so there's going to be, I'm going to be paying a lot of attention to the work that needs to happen to basically get City hall, the city bureaucracy moving in a good direction, actually delivering services for the people of Seattle and hopefully pioneering a new model of kind of responsive government and communication with the people where we're really explaining what we're doing and why. And if we're coming up against obstacles, here's why. And I think this is a similar challenge that I think, you know, Mamdani is going to face in New York City where there's a lot of really ambitious things that we want to get done, but there's also real obstacles. Right. It's like the reason why these things haven't been done is, is. Is complicated and there's really entrenched interests that are going to fight against it. And so we're going to need to be able to tell a story of the things that we're fighting for, the progress that we're making, but also the reason why we're not. It's not moving faster. Right. So that's going to be big. And you know, I mean, like I'm in this race, right? There was more corporate PAC spending against me than has ever been spent in a Seattle race against a candidate. And a lot of those same interests are also going to want to undermine my administration. And so I'm going into this with, I think, clear eyed about the challenges, the political challenges, as well as the practical challenges of implementing my agenda. And I mean, it's going to be a massive challenge, but I'm really excited about it as well.

Krystal Ball (91:23)

Well, Katie, I really appreciate you taking the time. I know you're probably like super busy right now and really in the thick of things. I won't say congratulations yet because I don't want to, don't want to jinx the result. But I'm very excited to see what you do with the position and I hope you'll come back and check in with us in the future.

Katie Wilson (91:39)

I would love to. Thank you.

Krystal Ball (91:41)

Yeah, it's our pleasure.

Emily Jashinsky (91:42)

Super interesting interview, Crystal. And we should mention, programming note, we have moved the block. We have not canceled the block on Mar a Lago face that we teased at the beginning of the show. We have simply moved it to the Friday show because of the breaking Epstein news. But the. The benefit of that is now Ryan will be with us to weigh in. And we know that Ryan is going to have something great to say about Mar a Lago face.

Krystal Ball (92:07)

He will say something that none of us expect. He'll tie it into some personal experience he had as a plastic surgeon when he was 23 or something. Thing. Who knows? Who knows? Ryan Graham is going to bring to the table in the Mar a Lago Face conversation, but we wanted to make sure that it was inclusive. You know, it felt a little bit because men are also getting their version of the Mar a Lago face. So I think it is better actually in the end that we. Yeah, exactly. Not naming names. Matt Gates. It is better in the end that we have a more inclusive, diverse panel of voices too discuss this phenomenon.

Emily Jashinsky (92:41)

That's right. I think that's well said, Crystal. So if you want to see. Well, I don't know if we'll keep that in the second half or maybe we'll bring it out for everyone. Tbd. But if you don't want to miss it no matter what, then go. Subscribe for a premium membership over@breakingpoints.com you get the second half of the Friday show. You also get the show every day in your inbox. Early full version of it. No ads, no nothing. It's right there in your inbox. So go ahead and subscribe. Subscribe over@breakingpoints.com Crystal, thanks for being here today.

Krystal Ball (93:10)

Fun one, interesting one. Never a dull moment.

Emily Jashinsky (93:13)

That's right. All right, well, Crystal and Sagar will be back with you all tomorrow. I'll see you Friday. Have a great day.

Krystal Ball (93:34)

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