Ryan Grim (1:49)

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Emily Grover (2:00)

We need your help to build the future of independent news media, and we hope to see you@breaking points.com.

Krystal Ball (2:05)

Good morning, everyone. How's it going?

Ryan Grim (2:07)

It's going good. Nice to have Ryan back from his overseas trip.

Ryan (2:11)

Good to be back. How's. How's everything over here? That's right.

Emily Grover (2:14)

I'm great because I just been a wild one. You have a giant tool bag under your.

Ryan (2:19)

Under your desk, of course.

Krystal Ball (2:21)

Building something. What's going on down there?

Ryan (2:22)

No, this basement is something else. You guys wouldn't. It's a bit.

Emily Grover (2:25)

It's. He's. He's like that TikTok lady who's like tunneling in her. Into the. In her basement. She was creating a labyrinth under it.

Ryan Grim (2:33)

I'm not aware of that.

Emily Grover (2:34)

Yeah, I'll send you some links.

Ryan (2:37)

I was at that conference called Web Summit in Lisbon, Portugal, which is. There's some media, but it's mostly tech. And 70,000, 80,000 people come to it. It's like the biggest tech conference in the world. And it was just all AI slop, like complete AI takeover of the. Of the tech scene. Although interestingly, the most interesting thing, there was a rumor kicking around that when, when this is over, they have, they have like a couple more years on their contract in Lisbon. They might, might take it to China, which would be. Wow, that would be a real shot across the American tech bow if that. Yeah, that actually happened. They do one in Toronto, they do one in Vancouver, they do one in I think Sao Paulo. The. But the main one has been in Lisbon since it was moved out of Dublin. Maybe.

Ryan Grim (3:24)

Like I was seeing some, some good news for the AI, the American AI industry, which is. We might get to this in the show. This big hack that happened first, like major hack that happened using AI tools with very little human involvement. They did use U.S. aI tools, American AI tools. So us a win for us. Joe Eisenthal was pointing that out.

Ryan (3:45)

Incredible anthropic. Yeah. Which is like, it's a low bar, but it's the most transparent of the monstrous AI companies.

Ryan Grim (3:55)

Yeah, that's right. Yeah, that's true.

Krystal Ball (3:56)

So we got a lot of stories this Friday, packed Friday show. We've got more Epstein stuff. We're going to be looking at an article that Emily wrote in Unherd about the groipers and how many actually are there.

Emily Grover (4:08)

We've also described this segment as the Groiper census. So that's how we're going to refer to it.

Krystal Ball (4:13)

That's right. Which is now an official yearly census.

Ryan Grim (4:16)

Valuable public service you're providing there. Em. Thank you.

Krystal Ball (4:19)

As Crystal mentioned, we've got artificial intelligence, cyber attacks. And then we have a guest. Crystal, who are we having on this Friday show?

Ryan Grim (4:27)

Yeah, so we've got Peggy Flanigan. She's the current lieutenant governor of Minnesota, which is interesting in its own right. You know, working closely with Tim Walls. He's. They were running mates together. And then she's now running for U.S. senate in Minnesota. She's in the Democratic primary against a sort of moderate to conservative Democrat named Angie Craig, who worked in the medical device industry before coming into Congress. So should be an interesting one. Peggy Flanagan is, you know, broadly Sort of on the left type of candidate. So interesting, interested to chat with her, you know.

Ryan (4:57)

And I, I got a video of Angie Craig being a little crazy at a town hall that I hadn't done anything with yet. So maybe I'll play that for Peggy Flanagan, get her react to it.

Ryan Grim (5:09)

Okay.

Ryan (5:09)

She's getting, she's getting challenged at a, like an auction dinner about Gaza and just shouts back at the person, we're not a cult. Basically. It's like, it's very bizarre and weird because I didn't even know what to do with it. It's like, this is so weird. What do I do with this? But anyway, I think I figured out what I'm gonna do with it. I'll post it by the time she comes on and we'll.

Krystal Ball (5:28)

Speaking of, speaking of hidden troves, Ryan sitting a lot of hidden troves. But let's get a little bit to the Epstein stuff. Ryan hadn't, hadn't been on this week. So we really wanted to hear from Ryan about his reaction. The one thing I wanted to note, it seems like the new vibe or the new perspective is that, well, maybe Trump may have had sexual interactions olds, but you know, like maybe not younger kids. And the White House went and posted a video of him interacting with children. Can't, can't, can't help but think that this might be somewhat related to the news this week, him handing out pens. So yes, the White House confirms he's okay with 8 year olds. But Ryan, you know, my first question to you is with all this Epstein news, did all this come out because of they wanted to cover up the drop site reporting about his Israel connections? Because it seems like that has not been mentioned at all this week for the mainstream media.

Ryan (6:25)

I don't know, I try to not get too conspiratorial and when things come out and why they come out, you know, could.

Ryan Grim (6:33)

Well, the reason it came out now, I mean in part, Ro Khanna came on our show and said, hey, me and James Comer actually did the subpoena of the Epstein estate and they've just been releasing things in batches. And then the other reason Epstein is big this week is actually because of the end of the government shutdown which allowed Adelita Grijalva to. So as much as I would like to imagine a drop site centered conspiracy, I don't actually think that's what's going on.

Ryan (6:58)

I think I agree, I tend to agree with that. Yes. On Griffin, on your point, I think you're referencing that the cringe like Megyn Kelly Bhatia segment where, you know, they seem to be, they're doing something. It's a fee permission structure for barely legal type of illegal activity. But I don't. So, I mean, so far, you know, I. Trump is obviously all over these files because his administration has basically said he is and he's going to the mat to keep him, you know, to keep them from getting released. So he's letting the entire world know he's guilty. But so far, what Democrats released I didn't think was necessarily that impressive about Trump. You know, like, I guess the best thing we can talk about this was Epstein saying that, you know, he had told the Russians that he's got some dirt on Trump or something like that. And Epstein telling people, you know, if Trump says he didn't fly on the plane, he's a flat out liar. If Trump says he's never been to the mansion, he's a flat out liar. We kind of already knew that, that he'd been on the plane, that he'd been, that he'd been in the mansion. You know, there's videos of him and Epstein. He and Epstein were very close friends until they apparently had this falling out because Epstein kept poaching girls from Mar A Lago into his trafficking operation. And Trump was like, these people work for me. I don't think he was chivalrous and opposed to whatever Epstein was going to do with him. But it's like, it's hard to hire people. It's annoying. Now I got to hire new people. So I think it was more along.

Ryan Grim (8:35)

Those lines falling out.

Ryan (8:38)

Right.

Ryan Grim (8:38)

He also had that over the real estate, sort of a real estate deal. And then there's a suggestion, you know, the one email where he's like, that one dog that has embarked is Trump. And then he says something, something police chief, I'm 75%. They're like, very cryptic. There's also some theorizing that Epstein thinks Trump may actually have tipped off the police chief that ends up doing the investigation that then gets scuttled by Alex Acosta. Whatever. But, yeah, go on, Ryan, finish, finish.

Ryan (9:08)

No, that's. That is a funny kind of twist if, like, Trump, out of spite over some real estate deal, called the cops on his, on his friend and ended up then entangling himself 15, 20 years later in this entire reckless controversy. But, yeah, the, the coverage, the coverage of the Putin, Putin and Epstein connection coming out of the latest email was the one that kind of jumped out at me the most. It's like all Right, Good. That's interesting. You can write about that. Maybe in your second paragraph you could mention that Epstein worked with the Israeli government to set up a back channel to Putin. Like that feels, that also feels relevant. Feels like they're the, the amount of gymnastics and contortions they're going to, to make news out of these drops without mentioning the country of Israel and the connections that he has to Israel. Even as we have the inbox of Ehud Barak, his very good friend, to go through, we have the inbox of Ambassador Proser to go through, we have enormous amounts of contextual information coming from the House Oversight Committee to establish that he was working directly with Israeli intelligence. You can argue about what he was doing. He's working with them. We, even as we published this week and you guys talked about, he's even wiring money. So like an Israeli intelligence official, like getting, getting wire transfer data from Barack. It's like this could maybe work its way into the coverage at some point, but it, it feels like it's acceptable at this point for the media to just talk about the sex trafficking part of it, but they will not touch the rest of it.

Emily Grover (10:59)

Well, I just want to say, like, what we can expect to see out of these Epstein's disclosures for the next several decades are exactly what we saw this week. 20,000 emails here or there and you get pieces of a big puzzle. You don't even know what the picture of the puzzle you're assembling is. And so you just have this scattering of pieces, scraps. It's exactly like what we've gotten in the John F. Kennedy assassination stuff. It'll stretch into decades and you'll get really fascinating tidbits like that dog that hasn't barked yet is Trump. And it'll be gesturing at something like fascinating, intriguing and important. But there's no smoking gun the government is going to disclose to us. We're not going to see it buried in 20,000 email dump from the estate. Any smoking gun has probably been destroyed and they're certainly not going to put it in the 20,000 email dump randomly on one day from the estate. But what we can do is, is see this picture emerging through literally only the drop site reporting of a sprawling intelligence operation. So do I think the sex trafficking is real? Yes. Do I think they're going to ever release anything that definitively, legally puts anybody in jeopardy for it? Probably not. I hope they do, but probably not. But what we are going to be able to see are the contours of the sprawling and obvious Intelligence operation, and that's proven that through Ryan's reporting with Maas.

Ryan (12:22)

Yeah. And it's interesting. It's like, what would this. What kind of a smoking gun would. Would actually be needed? Because it. It then depends on what you're trying to prove. Like, if all you're trying to prove is that he had lots of connections with American intelligence and Israeli intelligence and also elites in. In Russia and Europe, it's proven. Done. Gotcha. You're covered. If you want to know specifically what he was doing. Yeah, you know, we can lay out some of it. You know, so far we can tell you what we was doing in Syria with. With Mongolia, with Code Ivor. Soon we're going to have some Angola stuff, we'll have some Nigeria stuff. We can tell you exactly what's going on with the, you know, the different gems and the gold mining. Like, there's like enormous amounts of details you can get into. So, like. But then you're like, okay, well, now I know. Now I have a ton of details about this global network that is a kind of supranational government that. That operates. And it. That. That's what makes it so confusing, I think, even to us as we're like, originally going into it. Because you're looking for, like, does. Is he working for Mossad? Is he working for the CIA? It's like, it misunderstands what the role of, like, Mossad and CIA are in this world. Like, there's this super, super national network of elites that in the 2000 and tens were congregating Davos, man, was how you really understood them. And they were not. None of them were working for Mossad or the CIA. The CIA and the Massad were working for them is. Is a better way of putting it. Were they getting a W9 or like W2? Like, how are they getting paid?

Emily Grover (14:00)

You find a W9 that Epstein filled out for the CIA, right?

Ryan (14:03)

It's like. But we even have the wire transfer. It's Epstein sending the money to the Israeli spy. So it's like a minute, which is actually a nice metaphor for, like, how we actually do properly understand this, I think, which is there they work for this network of people, right. And how they work for them depends on who's. Who's kind of has more power within the clique at that moment. And how do you know that? You have to be on the in, you have to be on the inside. It's just. It's the same way with any other network.

Ryan Grim (14:32)

And that's why ignoring that piece of the story, you know, makes. So look, I think Americans want to know if Trump knew about this massive pedophile ring. I think that's probably the most suggestive thing. In these emails, Epstein certainly, you know, insinuates multiple times, explicitly states, I have dirt on Trump that could bring him down. Right. And he's always teasing this to this New York Times reporter. He's talking to Bannon about it. He's talking to Bannon about it right up until the point that he ends up in prison and then dead. Which is interesting in and of itself. Right? So, but is it a question of just the, like, horror and morality, which, I mean, I don't want to minimize that. Right. That's very important and horrifying. I think many people are horrified by it. Or is it a question of is the President of the United States compromised in some, you know, significant way by Israel and also here by Russia? Right, because this is the point you always make, Ryan. Like, even if Epstein is bluffing, clearly people thought that he did have all the videos, that he did have all the goods, that he did have all the dirt. And you would have certainly known that he was directly connected to the Israelis. I mean, besties with this former Israeli prime minister, doing business deals with him, obviously directly connected to Mossad. Ghislaine Maxwell's dad was directly connected to Mossad. That's just undeniable stuff. And then you also have this, you know, Russian connection. You have to assume that whatever it is that you don't want the public to know, Epstein knew and conveyed to these various parties. So now we're talking about issues of, of foreign policy. We're talking about how is this now impacting our country here in the present with the decisions you're making vis a vis Russia, vis a vis Israel and God knows what other countries you're concerned about here. And one thing you can say Mongolia probably. Yeah, right, right. What is this doing to our relationship with Mongolia? The people need to know. Okay, but you know, one of the. To me, you have to put together the, the emails, which are suggestive, right? No smoking gun, but very suggestive and also suggestive of a longer term relationship or at least connectivity with Epstein than Trump claims. The fact that Trump is acting guilty as hell. Right? I mean, you know what? It, it's almost like he has shame on, on this particular, which I've never seen before.

Ryan (16:51)

We found his shame.

Ryan Grim (16:53)

Yes. I'm like, okay, well, what is it that's so bad that it apparently is worse than shooting someone on Fifth Avenue? Since he thinks that would be fine for him to do, but this he thinks would be, would be worse. And we know not only from his public actions how sort of panicked he is, but also this special treatment of Ghislaine Maxwell is also a very important piece of try to understand the psychology of Trump. Like this woman should never be in this Club Fed prison, number one. Number two, she's getting the freaking puppies and the special meals and the exercise and getting to meet with people, people after hours, etc, Number three, she's putting in her commutation application. Every time Trump's asked about it, he, he won't say whether he'll accept or reject it, etc. So very clearly he wants to keep her happy so that she does not divulge whatever it is that he is afraid of her divulging. So to me, when you put those pieces together, it's like what is going on here that is causing him to act in this bizarre way vis a vis his, the normal way that he conducts himself.

Ryan (17:55)

Yeah, the only other thing I'd lay on top of that because. Absolutely correct. And especially about people assuming that Epstein had the goods, like what we now know from all of the reporting we've done recently, the business that he and Ehud Barak were getting into on behalf of Israeli companies and the Israeli government itself was cyber surveillance was the bleeding edge of the most sophisticated spying technology in the world. And so he had they. So people who knew him knew that he has direct access to these, you know, no click, you know, penetrations of your phone or cameras, God knows where, like the kinds of like sci fi stuff that, where they're several years ahead, where we now understand like what they're capable of. They had that, you know, they knew about it years ago. So even if he didn't have you in his mansion or on his plane, you had to wonder what else, what do they have?

Ryan Grim (18:49)

What else does he know?

Ryan (18:51)

Because when you have state power combined with global surveillance networks, you have an access to an enormous amount of information.

Emily Grover (19:02)

The only other thing I'll add about Gillen Maxwell is, I mean there could be a lot of stuff going on there. She, in those transcribed interviews that were released was I think pretty obviously deferential to Trump and Trump has been deferential in turn to Ghislain Maxwell. And obviously seems like there's some information that Maxwell may have that Trump is sort of trying to control her and anything that she might be able to spill, I don't know if it's like about Trump or if it's about the intelligence community. Like I don't know what more worried about, to be honest. But it's like at this point, everyone knows Trump. He's like this, the Fifth Avenue guy, right? Like fifth Avenue, shoot someone on Fifth Avenue. Like he has Crystal. Crystal's point about him acting guilty as hell. Like just politically. Just politically. Like it's insane to fight the document releases. It's completely insane.

Peggy Flanagan (20:06)

I turned off news altogether.

Ryan Grim (20:08)

I hate to say it, but I.

Emily Grover (20:10)

Don'T trust much of anything.

Krystal Ball (20:13)

It's the rage bait.

Peggy Flanagan (20:15)

It feels like it's trying to divide people.

Emily Grover (20:19)

We got clear facts. Maybe we can calm down a little.

Peggy Flanagan (20:25)

NBC News brings you clear reporting.

Ryan (20:28)

Let's meet at the Facts.

Peggy Flanagan (20:29)

Let's move forward from there.

Ryan (20:31)

NBC News reporting for America.

Peggy Flanagan (20:35)

Now.

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Emily Grover (22:28)

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Ryan (22:32)

He has good political sense. He knows how insane it looks, so therefore he thinks that not doing it is even worse, which is really wild.

Ryan Grim (22:41)

To think about, which is very.

Emily Grover (22:43)

Yes, but it's insane because there's already so much, like, the birthday book, like, there's so much out on Trump's relationship with Epstein. I mean, it's just.

Krystal Ball (22:54)

If we psychoanalyze this, it's going to be three hours. So I am going to move us along to your important reporting. Emily Grover, Census. Yes, well, there has been a census conducted by Emily. Now, this all started, of course, when young Republican group chat texts were leaked. There was I love Hitler comments and other unsavory opinions. But Emily decided to do some. Some gumshoe reporting, some knocking on doors, making phone calls to find out just how many of these Republicans are griped up basement catboys. Emily, what. What did you find? What are the numbers here?

Emily Grover (23:28)

Groped up basement cat boys. Well, okay, so there was a number pinging around conservative movement circles in D.C. last week from Roger, who wrote that he was told by an older insider that 30 to 40% of Gen Z staffers in conservative world and here in D.C. were gripers. And in that it was sort of conflated with groupers slash fans of Fuentes. Those are kind of different things. Like, it's. I'll get into that in just a second.

Krystal Ball (23:55)

I actually agree with that, too.

Emily Grover (23:56)

Yeah. Yeah. Like, it's because if you just see someone who's like, laughing at Nick Fuentes as opposed to with Nick Fuentes, there's a distinction, and that distinction might be genuine anti Semitism. So it's hard for, I think, particularly anyone older than like, the age of 40, but maybe even like the age of 30. So, like, go through these layers of irony and find the people who, what does Fuentes tell them to say? Are hiding their power level, whatever. So the question is, has Fuentes successfully infiltrated professional D.C. and Republican circles as he has said he has done and as he has planned to do? I think the answer to that question is probably in small measure, yes, but I do not think it's anywhere near 30 to 40%. My background's in the conservative youth movement. Do tons of work with students, have met with, like, hundreds of people for coffee in the last, like, 10 years. And all that is to say, I wanted to just get a sense from other people, other younger people on the right, what they thought the real number was. So I had like seven sources that I talked to kind of across the board, everywhere from the White House, Capitol Hill, conservative youth groups, all of that. And every single person I talk to was like, that number is crazy. Pretty much everybody agrees that there is some small number. One person I talked to, the administration was like, it's not double digits, which I know is cold comfort to people like, oh, you're saying that 9% of young Republican staffers are gripers. I doubt that it's like, even that high. I have no idea what the number is, but I don't think it's even that high either way. I just think it's important to distinguish between who's legitimately, like, gripper, anti Semite, and who is sick and tired of our foreign policy towards Israel. And what we saw happen in I think a couple of different recent cases is those young Republicans who were saying legitimately like, racist and awful stuff, then being conflated with the people at the Heritage foundation, like the young staffers at the Heritage foundation who are getting berated by neocons for saying, we don't like your Israel policy. And like, Project Esther is censoring people. So I do think that it's worth, like, pausing to. With cooler heads, allowing that to prevail. Allowing cooler heads to prevail and be like, we have to distinguish when we're, you know, actually trying to have a useful political movement between who's an actual bigot, because there are some. And it's a problem that it's going to get worse the more disenfranchised a lot of young men feel and people who are just not on board with the Project Esther neoconservative, like, really broad definition of what constitutes anti Semitism. So, yes, I had seven sources. Nobody over millennial age, so millennials and younger. And yeah, I mean, it's not useful if they're anyone. So true that that's, that's what I wrote. This is the groiper census. And that's. We don't, we don't have the firm number, but I think it's safe to say not. Not double digits.

Ryan Grim (27:04)

Yeah. I think part of what is hard to kind of wrap your arms around is like, what do we mean by that term groiper? You know, as you were indicating, do we mean, like, the strictest definition would be someone who is like a Nick Fuentes super fan, who would self identify Unironically as a griper.

Emily Grover (27:27)

Right.

Ryan Grim (27:27)

And who buys into the entirety of the worldview? Okay, right. That would be like the, the narrowest definition and there's a much broader definition which would be that, you know, they are sort of, you know like racialist and, and may even come down on a different question of whether they hate the Jews or the Muslims more, but have this fundamental, like Stephen Miller fundamentally racialist worldview. And I think that, I mean we see that, that is we see publicly from this administration that the people who are running the social media accounts, the people who are like you know, Stephen Miller and his acolytes who are designing the policy, they share that racialist worldview. And so, so you know, to me it's just a question of like well what exactly do we mean by that and does it make it any better? Like I don't think Stephen. You can't call Stephen Miller a groiper because he comes down, like I said, on a different question place on the question of whether the Jews or the Muslims are worse. But he does share this bedrock racialist ideology which he's using to effectuate policy as one of the most powerful administrative administration staff member. So to me it's somewhat of a distinction without a difference whether he's technically like a Nick Fuentes super fan. He wouldn't be again because he is, is Jewish and is a Zionist and very committed to the state of Israel. But on a lot of levels they fundamentally agree.

Emily Grover (29:01)

I think the distinction in that case would be Fuentes indicates on his show he is like controlling sleeper cells of. To the, the narrow definition you laid out cr. People who are self identified groiper Jersey wearers who would like activate at a moment's notice like the sleeper cell would be activated.

Ryan Grim (29:23)

Talks about like sending them to Iowa, New Hampshire to harass JD Vance if JD Vance is to run for President. I mean they probably will, you know, as ongoing war actually with Charlie Kirk and TP usa which is why people when Charlie Kirk was murdered were first raising eyebrows at the gripers. And we do see a lot of like gripped up young people showing up at the TP USA events. True. And you know, even at events with like Eric Trump. I saw, you know and. But to your point, it's, it's can be difficult to separate. Okay. Do you have a legitimate concern about our foreign policy vis a vis Israel or is this fueled by. You think it's a Zionist occupied government and the Jews control everything, etc. Etc.

Emily Grover (30:04)

Yeah, yeah. And I think that it's to like throw around the 30, 40% number is dangerous because then you're going to end up pushing people who are not anti Semitic but are being told they're anti Semitic further to the fringes because there's like, there's nothing I can do that will make you think I'm well intentioned. And they still have agency and it's still their fault if that happens. But yes, the, yeah, I, I think the people who were giving Fuentes too little credit before for having power are now giving him too much credit. And so, yeah, it's, it's a little, I don't know, it's tricky. But the right, Scott, to get the right's got lots of problems. Lots of problems.

Ryan (30:44)

And I, I will say they, they seem to be congregating in the social media departments of all these federal agencies because like, this is not, you know, George H.W. bush content that they're putting out on, on like the, like on main, like they're putting out like far right like groiper style memes like from the white national accounts of like the department of the department of that department, like the. And so I assume those are kids that somebody had for the sand.

Krystal Ball (31:18)

Remember this? It's a Santa's video when he was running that had like the black, the sonar on like, like this has like been happening for like a year or two now. These memes.

Ryan Grim (31:27)

I mean it makes sense that they would be Emily in the like perhaps a, a disproportionate concentration of those departments because if you're that online that you're a Nick Fuentes, like super fan, then you're probably going to have some skill in like the meme and social media department. Right? Possible a major and a major push in this administrator. We were talking about this earlier in the week, to the frustration of some, you know, ideological allies, is to basically, you know, do the, the based ritual, the vice signaling through their social media and have that substitute for any substantive policy that actually improves people's lives.

Emily Grover (32:05)

The, the last thing I'll say is almost all of my sources, with a couple exceptions, are populists. So that's another question that I've gotten in the last couple of days. This is not like establishment McConnell people. So that just, just adding that. And the other thing I want to say is before recently, really the only people on the right who knew what a groiper was were people who are working in the youth movement because Fuentes was so intentional and strategic about infiltrating some of these youth events. And so those Those organizations have for years been like, screening gripers, like going through like deep dives, social media, trying to figure out if people have burners trying to ask certain questions that might suss out gripers. And that's probably getting harder to do because they're getting more, I think, probably strategic to try to avoid that process.

Ryan Grim (32:56)

Well, last thing I'll say is who was this guy Degrassio or something like that, who had his messages leaked?

Emily Grover (33:02)

Oh, Paul. In Gracia.

Ryan Grim (33:04)

In Gracia, yeah. Who had his messages leaked where he was talking about like, I, I've got a Nazi streak, you know, and he just got elevated to a new, you know, relatively high level position. So again, like, is he a griper? Probably not. Like, he's an older guy. He's probably maybe not like a, you know, Fuentes meme. I don't, I don't know, maybe he is, but he's around my age.

Emily Grover (33:29)

I think he's like 30ish.

Ryan Grim (33:30)

But, you know, this stuff comes out and reveals that he's at least, you know, open to. He. I mean, he has a racialist worldview, open to overt Nazism. And this is not disqualifying in this administration. So I don't know why anyone would think that, you know, like, that somehow an association with Nick Fuentes would in any way being be disqualifying or that this administration would have any interest in tamping down on overt racist sentiment when again, some of the most powerful players within the administration share an overtly racist worldview. Even if some of the like ethnic potent, like specific ethnic dividing lines are slightly different.

Krystal Ball (34:10)

Yeah, I agree with that. I agree with like Ryan's take on like the DHS memes and stuff like that. But like, I did get a sense from the story when like the, the group chat officially like leaked that people were saying, oh, like this doesn't just mean the staffers, but that a sizable, just part of like MAGA base or voter population, like our, our, our. Our Nazis and Hitler lovers was kind of like a sense from the story. But I feel like if you reverse that and looked at like Democratic operatives, like, I don't believe that like all Democrats are like Olivia Giuliana or Harry Sisson. Like, like, I don't think that that's also representative of like the Democratic base or what have you. And something that was interesting.

Emily Grover (34:49)

I don't think Hasan's representative of the average, like young Democrat. No.

Ryan (34:53)

Little taller maybe.

Krystal Ball (34:55)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But like, there's also this like entertainment.

Ryan Grim (34:58)

Question because I was thinking Hassan is fairly representative of a lot of young Democrats in a lot of ways. I mean, just look at how many under 30 voted for Zoran in New York City. And, like, if you're to talk about just, like, ideological alignment, Hassan's politics and his politics would be, you know, not identical, but the most closely aligned of any mainstream political figure. So I actually think it would be fair to say that Young Democrats under 30, you know, probably I. They may not all be Hassan piker fans specifically. Well, yeah, they are more from that wing of, you know, reflective of that wing of the party.

Emily Grover (35:35)

Yeah, I think that's true. And I would have said the same thing with Charlie Kirk with the right. Yeah.

Krystal Ball (35:39)

And people also separate take what they want from content. And I was thinking about this because I heard, I saw another conservative YouTube influencer, Asmongold, talk about Fuentes recently, and he said, well, you know, I don't really agree with, like, the Jew hating stuff, but I agree with his takes on Israel. And I think that is, like, representative, like, of a lot of the conservatives that probably do watch Fuentes is they kind of, like, take what they want. They're like, oh, well, I'm not really sure I agree with, like, this, like, racism against Jews, but I do agree that Israel controls America or what have you. And I do think that is, like, representative of, like, a large part of the audience. Is that, like, in the same with Candace Owens. I'm pretty sure a large portion of people who watch Kate is Owen are like, she's crazy. But I love watching.

Emily Grover (36:20)

That's true.

Krystal Ball (36:20)

Right. And there is something to that.

Ryan (36:22)

Right.

Krystal Ball (36:22)

That. That people are coming to be entertained and they take what they want from it. Like, they don't become the person they're watching entirely, and they pick and choose what parts of it because ultimately a lot of it is entertainment.

Emily Grover (36:35)

Well, last thing I'll say on this actually, is I think that's why it's incumbent on the right to understand better why people are watching Candace and Fuentes. Some of it is because they're getting sucked into bad racial politics, like bigotry. On the other hand, some of it is that. Where else do you go to get a conservative criticism of this Trump administration? Exactly like that's part of it. And so if the. If they want to start, like, actually preventing people from getting sucked down these rabbit holes, they need to understand that young people are not happy with this administration. Young conservatives are not happy with this administration looking for people to actually have real conversations about what's going on in D.C. and in the world. And that pushes them towards the Fuentes and Candaces and even towards, like, pucker for at least some modicum of criticism and skepticism about conservative elites. So.

Ryan Grim (37:28)

Yeah, it's just that it doesn't. I mean, if you're just putting anti Semitism off the table, but you're not putting other forms of racism and bigotry off the table.

Krystal Ball (37:38)

Shapiro mode.

Ryan Grim (37:39)

Yeah, that's a pretty hollow victory to me. You know, in my opinion, if it's like, oh, Stephen Miller won out. Congratulations, you know, or the people that actively support and fund an arm. A genocide. Oh, their ideology won. Wow, that's fantastic. You know, I mean, that's. And that's why I'm coming back to like, you know, the. The Stephen Miller and the views that are coming out of this administration. The policies. I mean, their refugee policy is only whites allowed. You know, this stuff is just overt. So I mean, I just, I don't see outside of. I really don't see any significant institutions within the right that are ascendant right now who are like, actually all bigotry should be off the table. Not just like, hey, guys, like Randy Fine, like, hey guys, let's hate the Muslims, not the Jews or Laura Lomar. Hey, guys, you know, it's the Islamization of America that's the real problem. And it's an outrage that we have any Muslims and in Congress. And how. But how dare you be anti Semitic? Like, that view where you're just like, well, my ethnic group were Dinesh d', Souza, right. Where he's like, well, my particular ethnic group should be off the table. I can't. But how dare you come for the Indians now? It's like, yeah, but you were good with all of this up until that point when the. The hatred turned on you. So, I mean, anyway, it's, you know, to me, there's the. The ideological strain on the right that is ascendant right now is fundamentally racialist. And so I don't really particularly have a dog in the fight of. I think it's all abhorrent. Right. Whether you put the Muslims on top or the Jews on top or who you hate more. I think it's all a disgusting way to. To behave fundamentally.

Ryan (39:18)

And Emily, is the right. Gonna need some more distance from like 2020. It feels like you watch a right wing organization. If anybody tries to stand up to any form of bigotry in.

Peggy Flanagan (39:29)

Yeah.

Ryan (39:30)

In any circumstance, then you're a cuck. They get called woke. Yeah.

Ryan Grim (39:33)

Yeah. You're a lib. You're A cuck, you're woke.

Emily Grover (39:37)

I think that's the problem with like the in Grazia stuff, which is people assume and that's why I think this distinction is important. People assume that anyone who gets caught up in like a cancel culture scandal, it's more important the cost benefit analysis is on owning the libs and not like quote canceling somebody who's hashtag based. And so yeah, I think maybe that's a good point, Ryan. Yeah, I think that's, you know, all of the conservative institutions I think will say and have been like hand wringing over the last couple of weeks, especially with the heritage stuff to like say there's nothing, nothing excuses any of this, you know, and that's fueling Fuentes. He makes him seem like really important and really ascendant and all of that. So it's confusing.

Krystal Ball (40:27)

You need someone that's woke and hates Israel. Like you need, you need to wokely hate Israel on the right for there to be a healthy.

Ryan Grim (40:33)

Then you're just a leftist.

Emily Grover (40:35)

Then you're just a leftist.

Ryan Grim (40:36)

Then you're just a leftist. Come on over guys.

Peggy Flanagan (40:41)

I turned off news altogether.

Ryan Grim (40:43)

I hate to say it, but I.

Emily Grover (40:45)

Don'T trust much of anything.

Krystal Ball (40:48)

It's the rage bait.

Peggy Flanagan (40:50)

It feels like it's trying to divide people.

Emily Grover (40:55)

We got clear facts. Maybe we can calm down a little.

Peggy Flanagan (41:00)

NBC News brings you clear reporting.

Emily Grover (41:03)

Let's meet at the Facts.

Peggy Flanagan (41:04)

Let's move forward from there.

Ryan (41:06)

NBC News reporting for America Now.

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Ryan Grim (43:03)

Lt. Governor Peggy Flanagan, welcome to the show. Guys, we talked about this earlier, but she is running. She's Lieutenant governor of Minnesota and she is also running for the Senate in the state of Minnesota in the Democratic primary. I believe her main challenger is Angie Craig, who's a current member of Congress. Lieutenant Governor, welcome. Great to have you.

Peggy Flanagan (43:23)

Thanks so much for having me. I'm so happy to be here.

Ryan Grim (43:26)

Yeah, of course. It's our pleasure. Just why don't you just introduce yourself a little bit for the audience, your background, how you ended up in politics and what some of the core issues are that motivate you.

Peggy Flanagan (43:37)

Sure, absolutely. So as you said, I'm the Lieutenant governor of the great state of Minnesota. I've been in this role for the last seven years. But at my core, I am an organizer. I was raised on the Wellstone for Senate campaign in 2002. I've been a school board member, the executive director of Children's Defense Fund Minnesota and also served in the House of Representatives here in Minnesota. And I'm a kid who felt like the bottom could fall out at any moment. And I know that there's too many people who feel that way right now. And that's why I decided to run for United States Senate, because I think we need more people who understand what it feels like to try to stretch 20 bucks through the through the end of the month. And so I'm excited to be here. I'm a mom of a 12 year old, a middle schooler, and I live in the community that raised me of St. Louis park and I'm the highest ranking Native American woman in executive office in the country. I'm a member of the widers band of Ojibwe, which is the largest tribe here in Minnesota.

Ryan Grim (44:41)

And I know you've done a lot of work, you know, connecting indigenous communities as well.

Emily Grover (44:46)

Yes.

Ryan (44:49)

My understanding is that even though Angie Craig does not have the official endorsement of, say, Chuck Schumer, at this point, she has all the, it's understood to those of us who are here in Washington, D.C. that Angie Craig is the, like, Democratic leadership candidate. One way they send those signals without sending them all the way is they have Nancy Pelosi and Hakeem Jeffries endorse. You're like, wait a minute, why are the House leaders endorsing the Senate candidate but not the Senate leader, but, you know, and some unions and other, other signals that she's the candidate. So did you get any pressure from the national party not to run? They say, look, this, the lane is cleared for Angie Craig. It's, you know, this is, this is her nomination. What are you doing and how is that affecting your, the campaign?

Peggy Flanagan (45:41)

So I certainly didn't get any, any explicit pressure to, to not run, to be clear. But what I would say is, you know, Ryan, I think you're right that I am not a Beltway darling. And if this race were held in Washington, D.C. i think my opponent would win. Lucky for me, it's being held in Minnesota. And so that's why I think that we're going to win this, this race. You know, I have to tell you, I'm not the establishment candidate. And I think right now, especially going into 2026, that's a good thing. There's a particular formula I think that people, maybe the establishment in Washington like to see. I'm not part of that formula, but I think that that is what's speaking to folks in this moment. As we're traveling all across the state of Minnesota, people are ready for bold leadership. They don't want folks who are going to nibble around the edges anymore. And I think that's what we saw all across the country in the most recent elections. And that's why I'm in this. So, you know, if there's folks who are all in for my opponent, that's just fin. We're going to spend this time working on the ground, organizing with real folks and being really clear. I think that this race is about what is facing the Democratic Party overall because it is a corporate Democrat versus someone with progressive values who's been delivering for working families for a long time. And I think that that's what people are interested in in this moment.

Emily Grover (47:20)

Do you think that message potentially in a general election is powerful with people who maybe voted for Donald Trump or voted for Republican candidates in the past. Do you think your, your background as a left wing populist is, is actually something that helps you? I don't know if you had have conversations with people who voted for Trump or maybe other Republicans who are disillusioned, disenchanted now, where your, your sort of flavor of Bernie style populism is appealing.

Peggy Flanagan (47:47)

I certainly think it is. And we're actually seeing it as we're going across the state. So we've been holding what we call kitchen table conversations. And so it's a little less scripted town hall and a little bit more community meeting. So of course we have folks who are coming who are Democrats, we've got a lot of independents or folks who are like, I don't agree with, you know, any political party, but I'm really freaked out by what I see happening here. And then we have Republicans. We were in the community of Canby, Minnesota, which is in southwestern Minnesota, small town. And we had these four guys show up who sort of were all like, had their arms crossed over their chest in the back of the room. And, you know, and I was like, I wonder what these guys were about. And one of them raised his hand and he said, you know, we all voted for Trump in 16, in 20, and we didn't vote for, quote, unquote, that lady in 2024. They said, but we're here because you're a tough cookie. And then they went on to say that they were concerned about SNAP being pulled out of the Ag bill and what that means for the future of farmers. Like, we've already always been able to count on the fact that this was gonna get done. And he said, the little secret that people won't tell you is how many farmers themselves rely on SNAP to keep food on the table. And so I think that those are the things that are resonating with people. And no matter where I go, it can be in, you know, the urban core, the suburbs, rural communities, healthcare is the thing that I hear about over and over and over again. So that is like, we don't have to agree on everything, but I think what we can agree on is that it's like literally all of us versus extremist billionaires and the folks at the very, very top who are doing incredibly well under the Trump administration. And I think that's what can galvanize us. Folks know that the game is rigged and we just have to talk about it.

Ryan Grim (49:43)

What did you think of the shutdown deal that was, you know, agreed to by eight Democrats in the Senate, and do you believe that Chuck Schumer should continue to be the Democratic leader?

Peggy Flanagan (49:54)

So I'll tell you, it would have not even crossed my mind to, to like, even entertain voting for that deal. Talk about, you know, clutching defeat from, you know, the, the mouth of victory. I just, I feel like, you know, of course, I want to be very clear. The shutdown and our federal employees, TSA workers, folks who depend on snap, that was incredibly hard. And I know that we had people who were coming along with us. I think case in point, elections literally all across the country that said, keep fighting for us. And so I, I just don't understand it. So the answer is, like, I wouldn't have voted for it. I'm incredibly disappointed in the eight Senate Democrats and now four members of the House who went along. I think we only have a handful of tools in our toolbox right now as Democrats. This was one of them. And I'm sick and tired of Democrats fighting from a defensive crouch. And I think we lost some ground with people. And now I, along with others, have to work to rebuild that trust and say, I'm gonna fight for you. That is the kind of Democrat that I am. I think the job of a caucus leader is to keep folks together, and we certainly did not see that. I think it's going to take a lot for folks to feel like they can trust this party again, and that's what's at stake. And like you said, I, I think I feel the same way about Chuck Schumer that he feels about me. Uncommute is what I would say. And, and so, you know, I, I, as it's been reported, I don't think I'm his, uh, his candidate in this race. That's okay. We're just going to keep organizing and, and, and we're going to win.

Ryan (51:52)

A number of Democrats have said that he should step down as leader. Do you think he should step down as leader? Would you support him next time? Let's say you win and he runs for caucus leader again. There's also been some speculation that he won't even run for reelection. Do you think he should decline to run for reelection?

Peggy Flanagan (52:12)

I mean, I think any leader should take time to, you know, reflect on where they are needed and necessary. I would say there's a lot of time right between now and the election I'm really gonna focus on.

Ryan (52:28)

But what about right now, like Bro Khanna and a fair number of other Democrats have said enough. Like it's, this is an urgent moment. You just, you should step down now. Do you think you should step down now?

Peggy Flanagan (52:40)

That's not my decision to make. But I think he should seriously reflect on the direction of the party, the need to rebuild trust. Here's what, and here's what I think is, is so hard about this moment is that there are people outside of the Beltway who know that things are on fire.

Ryan Grim (52:58)

Right.

Peggy Flanagan (52:58)

And so I think that that is that disconnect between how people are living right now and what's happening in Washington D.C. that I think is what deserves a lot of reflection. Because when I'm in communities and I'm talking to a librarian who says my deductible is $15,000 a year and that I just went to the doctor for a five minute med check and it cost me 600 bucks and I don't know whether or not we're gonna be able to afford healthcare next year at all. And we're like nibbling around the edges and somehow saying like, well, we sure brought them the fight by raising this idea that healthcare is expensive and that somehow that's enough. It's baloney. And I think it just speaks to how disconnected people feel right now from what's happening in Washington. So again, I think Chuck Schumer just isn't that into me and that's okay. And you know, I'm going to keep doing the work that I need to do here in Minnesota and focus on this race and making sure that people here have the fighter that they need and someone who's willing to take on corporate interests and not capitulate to make sure that, you know, the money keeps coming in to the party.

Ryan (54:21)

And Lieutenant Governor, real quickly, if I could play a quick clip for you. A, a Minnesota DFL member who was at a party auction slash fundraiser earlier this month. You may have even been at this one. I don't know. Angie Craig was there and she's kind of leading an auction and she gets pressed by a Democrat who's at, in the, in the audience about her position on, on Gaza. And when a play her very strange and hard to understand response. But. And then get your response to this. Let me play this video here.

Emily Grover (55:05)

We believe in democracy in this country.

Cindy Crawford (55:08)

We are not a cult as Democrats.

Ryan (55:11)

500 so it go, it got, it goes on like that. She just kind of continues the auction but she says, you know, we believe in democracy in this country. We are not a cult. In response to the person pressing her on whether or not she, you know, was going to stand up against the genocide in Gaza. So any response to that clip itself, but also, where are you. Where do you stand when it comes to, you know, US Support for the Israeli military?

Peggy Flanagan (55:44)

Sure. So I was there.

Ryan (55:46)

Okay.

Ryan Grim (55:49)

I was.

Peggy Flanagan (55:49)

Yeah, I was at that dinner. And, you know, these are. There were a handful of young people who were there who, you know, spent their own money to be at this dinner. And I think we're looking for an opportunity to engage. And it was a packed room. Folks are fired up, and, you know, all of us gave a little speech, and that happened. What I decided to do.

Ryan (56:19)

What did she mean? Cult?

Peggy Flanagan (56:21)

I mean, I think it was just sort of a wild moment with, as you could hear, a lot of yelling. It was an auction. Like, we all. All the electeds or candidates had to auction off an item. And that.

Ryan (56:37)

That's.

Ryan Grim (56:38)

That's.

Peggy Flanagan (56:38)

That's what happened.

Ryan (56:39)

Right.

Peggy Flanagan (56:40)

Um, so I decided, you know, before I left to pull these young people aside and I talked to them because, you know, they. They were there to. To express their viewpoints. And I think that's important. And I think when young people are showing up in our party, it's important to make sure that. That they feel heard. Now, I want to be really clear. I am not taking money from aipac. I also don't believe that they would give it to me. So, you know, that. That's also part of this. But what has happened is I was asked about the Sanders resolution this summer that both of my senators, Senator Tina Smith and Senator Amy Klobuchar, voted in favor of to stop offensive weapons from getting to Netanyahu's government. And it was, you know, for me, because we saw the starvation of children in Gaza. And I think there are, again, a handful of tools in our toolbox that we can use when we see something happening that's. That's not right. And to be really clear, you know, the same reason why I would have supported that resolution when I see starving children is the same reason why I support breakfast and lunch being offered to kids, universal meals at school. Right. Like, that is a consistent through line. And, you know, of course, what happened on October 7th is absolutely horrific. And the trauma and the violence was unacceptable. And what we see, the response from Netanyahu's government of preventing aid, of leveling entire neighborhoods and communities is not right. And so I am now a target for aipac because I spoke up and I'm going to continue to. I reserve the right to critique my own government and Donald Trump, and I certainly reserve the right to critique Benjamin Netanyahu and his government as well. So I know that this is an issue. AIPAC is supporting my opponent to the tune of hundreds of thousands of dollars. And so we're going to be competitive when it comes to fundraising. But it's also, I also. That's not. Not how I'm interested in funding my case.

Ryan (59:20)

What did you tell the protesters? The students? Were they students? Were they. Yeah, what did you tell them and what'd they tell you?

Peggy Flanagan (59:28)

They were students, and they just said, we just want an opportunity to have a conversation. And I think she was sort of scuttled out the back door of the kitchen. I think people deserve that. And listen, you can decide to take money from whoever you want to, to fund your campaign. To me, integrity matters. And, you know, and so, like, I shared that with them. They asked how, you know, if I was taking APAC money, and I said no. And mostly I just listened. And I think that that is. I think that that's what people are interested in right now. And so if you're. If you're not going to even engage, like, what does that say right about. About our democracy? I just. We don't have enough young people in this party. We don't have enough young people who are banging on the door to say, like, I wanna be part of this work, I wanna be part of this movement. I think we have a responsibility to do everything we can to say, you're welcome here. And again, we don't have to agree on everything, but you get to have, you know, your voice heard in this process. And I worry about what that means. If we keep shutting young people down over and over again, maybe they're not going to turn out for the other guys. They're just not going to turn out at all.

Ryan Grim (60:55)

What do you see, Lieutenant Governor, as the primary differences between you and Congresswoman Angie Craig? What are some of the key policy differences that you see?

Peggy Flanagan (61:05)

Sure. So I would say the, you know, the biggest thing is really how we are approaching, you know, our elections. I've decided not to take corporate PAC money. That's incredibly important to me. I think, especially right now, when people know that the game is rigged. You know, I certainly knew that corporations had a lot of power in Washington. It wasn't until I started running for the US Senate that I was like, whew, they sure do. And so, you know, this has been a point where, for me, that's incredibly important is to say that I want to be accountable to the people of Minnesota and to our small Dollar donors all across the country because I think it's pretty disingenuous to say I'm going to hold big Pharma accountable while at the same time taking a big check from a pharmaceutical company. People are smarter than that and I think that that is really the core of what this is about. Are you going to show for the corporate interest? Are you going to work for working people? You know, I also think things like raising the minimum wage paid family and medical leave, making sure, you know, as we're talking about health care across the state, it is time to just say what is needed and necessary which is to get rid of prior authorization. So some dude behind a desk doesn't get to decide whether or not you get the life saving healthcare that you deserve or worse yet, AI or a robot doesn't get to make that decision and that we need Medicare for all. And you know, I think that that has been the clearest difference between the two of us that I am willing to take on these big corporations and to fight for what folks. And I am not being financed by the very people who are responsible for the reason that the economy looks like how it looks now for, you know, for, for middle class folks and for folks who are on the margins.

Ryan Grim (63:01)

Yeah, no, go ahead, go ahead Ryan. Go ahead Ryan.

Ryan (63:04)

Craig herself, correct me if I'm wrong, I covered her 2018 race. She was actually recruited by the DCCC in that race against some other, you know, more progressive candidates there. So my recollection, she and sorry Brian.

Krystal Ball (63:18)

We'Re going to have to wrap her. She's got a hard out parent teacher conference in a sec. So we'll do this last question and then we'll wrap her.

Ryan (63:23)

She was a medical device executive, is that right? Like she worked for a medical device company or something. Like normally Democrats are finding like female fighter, fighter pilots or something. So how does that, how does her background in corporate America like play into your campaign here?

Peggy Flanagan (63:39)

I mean, you know, I think, I don't know how hard we'll lean into like her expertise. I think we're both highly qualified, right. Women who are running for office. I think it is about just who do you want your candidates beholden to, right? Corporate interests or real people? And I think that's, you know, really what this, this campaign's all about.

Ryan Grim (63:59)

Just very quickly, because you raised AI, I know there have been a few high profile data center fights in Minnesota. You know, what is your view of the mass data center build out its impact on electricity prices and the environment?

Peggy Flanagan (64:11)

I mean I think we have to have additional protections in there for consumers. I think there's a difference between an AI center that has a closed water system versus one that does not. You know, when we see folks who are coming into building communities, I think a lot of times folks are getting a really raw deal. So I think we have to take a really good look at what does that actually mean. They're bringing jobs, and that's needed and necessary, especially for the build and construction. But how do we make sure that those benefits continue? And, you know, that's deeply concerning to me, and it's something that we hear all across the country. I think, think, you know, they're needed and necessary. However, we have to have additional protections in place for consumers and for folks who live around them to make sure that they're just not getting a raw deal.

Ryan Grim (64:56)

Lieutenant Governor, thank you so much for your time. We really appreciate it. It's great to get to meet you.

Peggy Flanagan (65:00)

Thanks so much for having me.

Ryan Grim (65:01)

Appreciate you. You're a pleasure.

Krystal Ball (65:05)

All right, on that note, what'd you guys think?

Emily Grover (65:08)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ryan (65:09)

Okay.

Krystal Ball (65:09)

We can debrief Ryan. What do you think?

Emily Grover (65:12)

Okay.

Ryan (65:13)

Is she. Yeah, she was about to be governor if Harris Walls hadn't sh.

Ryan Grim (65:18)

Oh, that's true. Yeah. I hadn't even thought about that.

Ryan (65:22)

Yeah, there was a lot of people in Minnesota who were really rooting for Walls to become vice president just so she could become governor. So there's double disappointment in Minnesota when Wallace came slinking back to the. The governor's mansion.

Ryan Grim (65:37)

She's got. She's got Bernie backing. She's one of the candidates that he has endorsed. I mean, there's a number of high profile races at this point that are basically like Schumer versus Bernie, which is a kind of a fun dynamic, telling dynamic. But I actually worked with one of the candidates that was opposed, and I can't remember his name at this point. He's a teacher who was in the race against Angie Craig. So I've been very familiar with that.

Ryan (65:59)

Yeah, I remember him. Yeah.

Ryan Grim (66:01)

For a while. Yeah. And. But yeah, I mean, she comes out of the, like, medical device industry and has done a number of favors for them and they have a large footprint in Minnesota, is my recollection as well. Like, it's a big business there. So for, you know, I think Peggy is obviously really trying to cut a pretty clear contrast in terms of, like, the source of their funding, the way that they're going about their campaigns. And then, you know, the fact that she's a Medicare for all supporter is also Obviously a significant divide at a time when healthcare is increasingly on the minds of people. People.

Ryan (66:36)

Yeah, it is. You know, it is interesting because it's like, okay, medical device. It's a big industry. Fine. But, like, do we really need a medical device executive representing them in the Senate? It's. It is such a classic rate. Like a corporate executive, though.

Ryan Grim (66:51)

I don't know that I don't understand the hesitation in throwing Chuck Schumer under the bus. Like, like she said, he doesn't like supporting me. And it's like, why can't you repay the favor? I, I. Kyle and I interviewed Antonio Delgado, who is the lieutenant governor, actually, of yesterday and is challenging Kathy Hochul and is also the progressive surgeon candidate. And same thing. I don't know what it is that the hold that Chuck Schumer has that is just something invisible underneath the surface. I mean, Ryan, do you have any insight into that?

Peggy Flanagan (67:21)

I.

Ryan Grim (67:21)

It. Because Delgado is New York. I was like. And AOC also was very. Wouldn't.

Krystal Ball (67:27)

AOC and Bernie have both been keeping. AOC and Bernie have both been keeping their powder dry on this. And it's like, you guys are the revolutionaries. Like, what's going on here?

Ryan Grim (67:37)

Yeah.

Peggy Flanagan (67:37)

I.

Ryan Grim (67:38)

So I was thinking maybe there's some New York thing that I don't get with. But then to hear her so reluctant, too, I'm like, what it. What is this? I don't get it.

Emily Grover (67:46)

I. I assume it's because if Schumer is still leader and she wins, you.

Krystal Ball (67:53)

Want to get your appointments, your committees, but. Yeah.

Emily Grover (67:56)

And it screws your state of stuff, too.

Peggy Flanagan (67:59)

Yeah.

Ryan Grim (68:00)

You just can't be doing this if you're going to be the, you know, the insurgent. And she's already, like, you're throwing in for that. Yeah, he's already. He's already gonna hate you for that.

Emily Grover (68:09)

You know, I think that's. People don't understand. Like, Ted Cruz was never gonna make nice with Mitch McConnell. Mitch McConnell is always going to hate you. It's fun. He might say he likes you, but he's always going to hate you.

Ryan Grim (68:19)

And I do think Schumer is just going to retire after this term, too. Don't you, Ryan? Because he's gonna. He's gonna lose.

Ryan (68:26)

Yeah, right.

Krystal Ball (68:28)

It's like, it's lifeguard rules. You know, if someone's drowning, you got to make sure they don't. Like, you don't drown with them. Right. You have to, like, you gotta pull them out, but if they're gonna pull you down, well, you got.

Ryan (68:38)

But if you get points for voters for pushing them under the points.

Krystal Ball (68:43)

Exactly. Yeah.

Ryan Grim (68:44)

Ro understands that, you know, clearly understands that. Look, I'm not trying to be overly negative. I thought she's, she's impressive. You know, she's got a lot to offer and certainly the contrast between her and Angie Craig who gets tons of money from, you know, pharma and device industry and APAC and whatever. Like there's, you know, very clear contrast here. But I'm just sort of puzzling over why this is difficult for not just her, but any number of candidates to just be like, yeah, you know, know, we should listen to the base. The base is done with Schumer. Let's time to move on.

Ryan (69:14)

Yeah.

Krystal Ball (69:15)

And, and we're going to move on. We're going to do one last segment here in the public half that I wanted to get to before we switch over to the second half of the show. And that is an AI story. We did ask her about AI data centers and Anthropic had a little interesting message they released where they said this from Anthropic AI's Twitter account. We disrupted a highly sophisticated AI led espionage campaign. The attack targeted large tech companies, financial institutions, chemical manufacturing companies and government agencies. We assess with high confidence that the threat actor was a Chinese state sponsored group. What are we to make of this first publicly announced AI led cyber attack?

Ryan Grim (70:00)

Let me read a little bit more from the, the article that they posted just to get a few more of the. The details here, which are very consequential. They said again from Anthropic. We recently argued an inflection point had been reached in cyber security. A point at which AI models had become genuinely useful for cybersecurity operations, both for good and for ill. This was based on systematic evaluation showing cyber capabilities doubling in six months. We'd also been tracking real world cyber attacks, observing how malicious actors were using AI capabilities. While we predicted these capabilities would continue to evolve, what has stood out to us is how quickly they have done so at scale. In mid September 2025, we detected suspicious activity that later investigation determined to be a highly sophisticated espionage campaign. The attackers used AI's agentic capabilities. So these AI agents that they've been really pushing and very excited about as sort of like the next evolution of AI technology. That's what was used here. And they say they used it to an unprecedented degree using AI, AI not just as an advisor, but to execute the cyber attacks themselves. They say this group that they assess to be a Chinese state sponsored group, manipulated our Claude code tool into attempting infiltration into roughly 30 global targets and succeeded in a small number of cases. The operation targeted large tech companies, financial institutions, chemical manufacturing companies, which is a little scary and government agencies. We believe this is the first documented case of a large scale cyberatt executed without substantial human intervention. So that all sounds really bad. And here we are just like going along throw, you know, building out these data centers, watching OpenAI and these other companies like proposed throwing trillions of dollars at this stuff. Any sort of brakes that were on the car, completely taken away, just wild west off to the races. And we are just at the beginning of the potential fallout and here we already have AI with the capability to pull off a mass cyber attack hacking campaign independent of any human involvement. This is a, I think it's a pretty terrifying moment frankly.

Emily Grover (72:17)

Yeah, somebody's going to get killed. Like that's, that's. Somebody is actually going to die because they lose control of this stuff. And we're all going to say we're all going to go through the motions of wow, you know, we really need to start thinking so seriously and we need to do something and everybody's already going through the motions of wow, we need to think so seriously. It's moving so fast, but it's like it's going to take people dying for anyone who actually has power over this to say well we need guardrails. I mean it's, yeah, it's gonna happen.

Krystal Ball (72:54)

It's gonna be like an AI Chernobyl event is what we're gonna need. Right. Like we're gonna need some sort of mass casualty event before there regulation on any of this stuff.

Ryan Grim (73:03)

It's dark and. But you know what, Griffin and Emily, you're exactly right in that this is actually what a lot of people in the AI safety or AI alignment space sort of hope for. That there's something that captures the public's attention that is really bad but is containable and you know, not a total like destruction of all of human civilization that opens people's eyes and forces some sort of a reckoning. I mean that is the point where we're at where you know, if they're being honest, these AI safety researchers who are looking at this and feel like already you have AI that is capable of, you know, deceit, is capable now of these mass hacking attacks that already were at a place where we don't really know what has been built to this point. I saw someone else speculating, I wish I could remember what article this was in that basically like, well maybe if AI quickly gets rid of like 10% of the jobs that would be enough to trigger some sort of a mass social revolt. But before we ended with complete societal collapse. Like that's. Those are the sort of scenarios that are being openly discussed as like a best case scenario. It's, I mean it's horrifying. And then I mean, I guess the real best case scenario is that this is all a speculative bubble which is possible that we never really get beyond where we are right now. Of you, you know, okay, you've got some chat bots and you got some videos and now apparently you have the capability to hack a bunch which is not great. But you know, it doesn't live up to the promise there's a major financial collapse and correction that would cause mass pain as well. But at least it wouldn't be the sort of like total societal collapse or civilizational upheaval that is being promised slash threatened by this technology. That's the other potential outcome. But you know, when you see things like this that you start to feel like we may already be past the kind of like least bad alternatives that face us on the road at this point.

Ryan (75:06)

Yeah. And the fact that it, they suggest it came from China is really dispiriting too because it's like, because that's the argument that they keep using against people who say shut all this crap down.

Ryan Grim (75:18)

But China, it was China, but it used American AI to tools.

Ryan (75:24)

Right?

Krystal Ball (75:24)

It was a collab.

Peggy Flanagan (75:26)

Yeah, yeah.

Ryan (75:26)

Little crossover. Yeah. And then I've also seen people saying this is actually why the ethical people who are telling us we need to make warm and fuzzy AIs are wrong because we actually have to prepare for all out war. It's like, well Jesus, none of us just all slit our throats now. Like that's, you know, I mean the only solution really is a global solution summit where they do the same thing they did with nuclear non proliferation. Right.

Emily Grover (75:55)

It has to be treated that way because it has power over the entire world. It's not, it doesn't stop at anybody's borders. It has power over the entire world. It's moving more quickly, even the most powerful people in the industry say more quickly than they are able to keep up with. They do not know how it works, why it does X, Y and Z in every scenario. And, and that's again people are going to die before they actually have any kind of summit because can we, can.

Ryan Grim (76:22)

We, can we pull up the Matt Walsh tweet?

Krystal Ball (76:25)

I was just going to bring that up because not only this is going to change our Our realities and potentially like our, our political formations. If Ryan Grim and Matt Walsh are now BFFs, like there, there are new.

Ryan (76:37)

He'S been saying good stuff about this formations happening actually.

Emily Grover (76:39)

Yeah, yeah, he has.

Krystal Ball (76:42)

I, I, I, I, I mean I can pull it up, I don't have it on hand. But essentially like Ryan, like Matt Walsh was saying that hey, we scared that we're coming up on like potentially 10 to 25 million jobs lost in the very near future, that we're walking straight into a wall and there's no one in politics really doing anything about it.

Ryan Grim (77:00)

Unfortunately when I search Matt Walsh and Ryan Graham, I just get Ryan destroying him on Haiti.

Emily Grover (77:07)

I said bro, trip to Port au Prince I had before.

Ryan Grim (77:10)

There you go.

Emily Grover (77:10)

You can hash this out. We'll call it the Port au Prince summit and they'll hash the US out.

Krystal Ball (77:15)

So many summits need to happen. But Ryan, what did you make of this new alliance, if you will? I don't know if it's horseshoe, but it's something.

Ryan (77:24)

I mean it's not new. Like there, there are concerns on the left and the right about this and he's right that it doesn't sort well into our politics and so therefore politicians have just managed to not talk about it. So he, he write here, here's what he said, said and here I can, I can put it up one second. So he says AI is going to wipe out at least 25 million jobs in the next five to 10 years, probably much more. It will destroy every creative field. It will make him, it will make it impossible to discern reality from fiction. It will absolutely obliterate what's left of the education system. Kids will go through 12 years of grade school school and learn absolutely nothing. AI will do it all for them. We have already seen the last truly literate generation. All of this is coming and fast. There is still time to prevent some of the worst outcomes or at least put them off. But our leaders aren't doing a single thing about any of this. None of them are taking it seriously. We're sleepwalking into a dystopia that any rational person can see from miles away. It drives me nuts. Are we really just going to lie down and let AI take everything from us? Is that the plan? Plan? I, I, you know, well, well said. And you can add on to it the way that Mark Zuckerberg has suggested that this kind of thing is a solution to the like the loneliness crisis. Because now you're going to have people just sitting around chatting with AIs all day. And you know, it's like, no, we don't want this. Like, nobody, nobody wants this. And so can't somebody do something about it? It's like his, his like plea resonates. It's like, it's like, isn't there somebody who's going to do something about this?

Ryan Grim (79:10)

Right, but then there needs to be the next step of, I mean, yes, someone could do something about it. It's called the Trump administration. They're the ones who, you know, I mean, listen, it's not like Biden was like, had all the breaks on. They were doing some stuff. And that's part of why, why these tech oligarchs all aligned against Biden is one of the reasons. And you know, in the Trump administration, they're given free reign. You got David Sachs in there, obviously, Peter Thiel is a giant, a major ally. Mark Andreessen is a major ally. Elon was literally part of the government. You know, even Sam Altman, Elon's nemesis, is brought in for these government deals. Zuckerberg hanging out with Trump, sucking up to him, et cetera. You know, there's a major push directly from this administration go into, in this direction. And so if you're going to really be part of. I appreciate the sentiment. I'm not trying to like, you know, whatever. I appreciate the sentiment. Something Emma and I have been talking about a lot with the Peter Teal Antichrist and what he's up to there and the, the coalition, political coalition that needs to come together and how it doesn't sort ideologically, neatly, like you said. But we need you to make that next step and realize who the enemy is here and the enemy is this administration. You know, you heard Steve Bannon early on, raising flags about these like, transhumanists with this anti human ideology. It's truly what it is, is. And so, you know, if you're just raising the concern without pointing the finger at the people who right now are pushing this the hardest and the fastest, it's a little impotent.

Emily Grover (80:38)

Well, and the Trump administration is falling for it hook, line and sinker and you know, bringing people in who aren't just falling for it, but who are obviously part of orchestrating this takeover of the entire world. Not just our politics, not just our government, not just our media, but the entire world. So it's happening extremely quickly. You couldn't imagine, honestly, worst situation where you have a president who is totally obsessed with flattery and addicted to flattery and is very easily swayed by grifts like a Meme coin in order to advance his, his personal wealth. And is is easily swayed by the ideological pitch. You know, like you can make lots of money, but it's also, you know, sort of anti World Economic Forum, anti global governance, which by the way, it's not. But, but just saying that he is particularly susceptible to that kind of persuasion and flattery. And right now with the deregul, deregulatory push in the Trump administration, which some of which I obviously support as a conservative, but not in this. And so you have like the perfect storm of things happening for accelerating a, for an accelerating AI capture and takeover and no, nobody, everyone's saying we should hit the pause button except for the tech oligarchs, but nobody is actually doing anything to hit the pause button or to create a pause button, although even.

Ryan (82:05)

Even lots of the tech oligarchs are saying it.

Ryan Grim (82:08)

And, and Trump I think knows that the whole stock market is held up by Nvidia. Like the entire thing, the entire US economy is being floated by Nvidia right now. Without AI, you know, and data center construction, there's zero GDP growth. 80% of the gains in the stock market are AI stock gains. Actually there is a bit of a slide. I haven't checked in again this morning, but in the futures this morning I know things were looking pretty bad in the stock market. NASDAQ was following. Yeah. Because yeah, stock sell off extends weighing on the Dow now. So you know, he understands the stock market and really puts a lot of same, puts a lot of quote unquote stock to be corny in what the numbers there say. So it, I even think from that perspective, like he's just going to continue to inflate that bubble as long as he possibly can.

Ryan (83:00)

Yeah, yeah.

Krystal Ball (83:01)

I'm also, I'm not familiar with like Matt Walsh's populist takes or what, what he has to say about all that, but I do think the Daily Wire types are going to come into some sort of friction with this AI battle because, you know, if your AI critiques are going to be a little limp if you don't, if you're, if you're always saying, oh, we shouldn't demonize billionaires, we shouldn't demonize people who are successful. But, but this AI hyper AI scalification is the result of runaway capitalism. And if you don't an approach or an understanding of that, then all of your AI critiques are going to have no solutions.

Ryan (83:37)

Ish. You know, well, it's ironically, I, it's interesting, like who do you trust? More right now China or the US to build some sort of ethical like AI that doesn't destroy the world. It's like this surveillance state, the authoritarian surveillance state or the US and it's like, wow. Yeah. Actually it's not obvious because there's like there, there at least is like a pretense toward a public interest there where in the US that's not the case. It's just, you know, gloves off, you know, zero sum.

Ryan Grim (84:14)

I just think it all down to be honest with you.

Ryan (84:17)

What's that?

Ryan Grim (84:18)

I. I genuinely just think it all needs to be shut down. I think we're at this, that point.

Ryan (84:22)

Where we need that and the like, the nice chat. Like, like you can have like there, there. You, you don't have to like go Back to like 0ai. You can still have like the, you know, there are the, the low level benefits of it. Like transcription is better. There's a lot of, there's a lot, A lot the technology can do when it comes to coding and software development. And that's great, that's fine. But like this thing where you're like it's thinking for itself and doing its own do and you know, acting on, in its own self interest, like no, no, no, we're good. Like we got.

Emily Grover (84:55)

And trying to, and trying to pull the rug over your eyes and say it's not. Yeah, right. Like it's doing. It's. It's acting in its own self interest while obviously smart enough to try and deceive you that it's not doing anything wrong whatsoever to the point where you lose track of it and you have no idea which they are all saying is happening. They are losing track of it. So yeah, I mean I think one of the reasons that we do what we do is that most of us realize, or all of us realize some of these battles that are coming up in the future are going to require people who disagree on a lot of stuff, stuff to fundamentally agree that what we're coming up on is a battle between like prohumanism and transhumanism or whatever the hell they call this because it's happening really quickly. Anti humanism I think is probably a better way to put it. And it's important to just recognize that people who support like humanity are going to be on. Like there are going to be a lot of I think strange bedfellows, but are up against, you know, Peter Thiel trying to convince the Matt Walsh's of the world that it would be far worse to, you know. Yes, it's scary the future is scary. Yes, you're right. All of these possibilities could prove true. But you know what would be worse? Not doing anything. And that's the, I think the sophisticated version of the seductive efforts happening from the oligarchs.

Krystal Ball (86:21)

Well, we have a guest coming on the show next week who has been writing about AI 2027, so look forward to that and more doomerism on the artificial intelligence. We're going to switch over to the second half of the show now. If you want to check that out, go to breakingpoints.com sign up, become a member. It's in the video description. There'll be a link and we'll see you all there. There in the second half. Ford was built on the belief that the world doesn't get to decide what you're capable of.

Ryan (86:53)

You do.

Krystal Ball (86:55)

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