Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar

Episode: Senator Chris Van Hollen On ICE, Gaza, Schumer & MORE!

Date: January 12, 2026
Hosts: Krystal Ball and Saagar Enjeti
Guest: Senator Chris Van Hollen

Episode Overview

In this episode, Krystal and Saagar interview Senator Chris Van Hollen in a wide-ranging conversation about U.S. foreign policy, the ongoing crisis in Gaza, the evolution and abuses of ICE, Democratic Party leadership, and systemic issues within American government and international credibility. Van Hollen reflects on the failures of American interventionism, the contradictions across administrations, and the critical leverage and decisions facing Democrats in this era.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Early Opposition to Iraq War and Lessons Learned

• Saagar brings up Van Hollen’s prescient 2003 opposition to the Iraq War.
  • Van Hollen recalled [03:55] his floor speech as a new Congressman, highlighting that “when you go in and break stuff, you really need to know what’s going to happen next. It’s easy to go in and break stuff. It’s building stuff back that’s really hard.”
  • He emphasized that the aftermath unleashed sectarian violence and ultimately “strengthened Iran” by removing their mutual enemy, Saddam Hussein.
  • Quote: “The biggest beneficiary from the US going into Iraq was Iran.” [05:26]

2. Life Experience and Foreign Policy Perspective

• Krystal asks how his upbringing shaped his worldview. [05:39]
  • Van Hollen, born in Pakistan to a diplomatic family, described learning the value of America’s example and the importance of matching U.S. ideals at home and abroad.
  • He recalled a story from Sri Lanka, where a Peace Corps portrait of JFK symbolized U.S. soft power.

3. Firsthand Documentation of Saddam's Atrocities

• Saagar highlights Van Hollen’s 1980s trip to Kurdish Iraq. [08:03]
  • Described gathering evidence with Peter Galbraith of Saddam’s chemical attacks on Kurds—exposing U.S. hypocrisy and lobbying against sanctions by American chemical companies.

4. Decline in Standards for U.S. Military Interventions

• Krystal points out the mask-off approach of recent U.S. foreign interventions. [11:06]
  • Van Hollen criticizes both neocon interventions (“bringing democracy at the barrel of a gun”) and the Trump administration’s explicit pursuit of resources like oil (“it is all about the oil.”) [12:00]
  • He singles out Trump-era foreign policy as nakedly corrupt, benefiting powerful donors and Trump’s circle.

5. The U.S. in Pakistan, Democracy vs. Power Politics

• Saagar questions U.S. complicity in undermining democracy (Pakistan). [13:43]
  • Van Hollen: “There’s another example where we are saying one thing and doing another.” [15:42]
  • Criticizes both Biden and Trump administrations for supporting the military over democratic norms in Pakistan.

6. Gaza, Human Rights, and Double Standards

• Krystal directly addresses U.S. support for Israel during the Gaza crisis. [19:55]
  • Van Hollen presses the Biden administration over indiscriminate bombings, the blockade of humanitarian aid, and U.S. legal obligations to withhold military aid when humanitarian assistance is blocked.
  • Quote: “We were witnessing indiscriminate bombing, and that there were violations, ongoing violations, not just of international law, but US law.” [20:35]
  • On Gaza: “I call what’s happening in the West Bank slow motion ethnic cleansing.” [21:05]
• Genocide label:
  • Krystal asks about the international consensus it’s genocide.
  • Van Hollen: “I think the overwhelming evidence points to the fact that this is a genocide… I’ve made it very explicit that this is ethnic cleansing.” [22:54]

7. Consequences Abroad and at Home: Barbarism and ICE

• Krystal connects foreign and domestic abuses—'law of the jungle’ and ICE brutality. [23:43]
  • Van Hollen: “They will do what they want. That is a lawless administration.” [24:29]
• Direct pressure on Biden:
  • Van Hollen describes limited success, highlighting the “NSM20” negotiation for humanitarian reporting, and its subsequent lack of impact. [26:34–28:28]

8. AIPAC, Litmus Tests, and Party Accountability

• Krystal asks whether Van Hollen or others would take AIPAC money.
  • “No, I don’t accept AIPAC money. I don’t think anybody should accept AIPAC money.” [28:54]
  • Stresses Democratic accountability for Gaza stance.

9. Schumer, Democratic Leadership, and Fight Club

• Saagar and Krystal press Van Hollen on whether Democrats need new leaders.
  • Van Hollen: “That’s going to be obviously something for the Democratic caucus… it’s going to be important to see whether the candidates…where they stood on this question of conscience.” [30:20]
• Fight Club:
  • A group of Senators frustrated with DSCC interference in primaries and establishment reluctance to embrace progressive candidates or push back on Trump. [42:20]

10. ICE, DHS Reforms, and Funding as Leverage

• Krystal pushes Van Hollen on using budget fights to force ICE reforms.
  • Van Hollen: “I will not vote for one more penny…for the Trump ICE operation. And I hope we will use this moment for that.” [37:29]
  • Points out distinction between ICE’s original mission and “Trump's ICE…on steroids.” [56:27]

11. Internal Democratic Party Battles

• Debate over DSCC involvement in primaries, especially in Maine, Michigan, and Minnesota.
  • Van Hollen: Demands more voter control and less establishment interference, with some exceptions agreed upon in Fight Club.

12. Domestic Policy Vision: Healthcare, Tax Reform, and Tech

• On Medicare for All:
  • “Looking at the health care system overall and the amount of money that we spend on overhead and administration…I just reached the conclusion that we should move now.” [46:14]
• Tax proposals and inequality:
  • Pledges to propose reforms targeting wealth made from capital vs. labor, and employee ownership. [48:27]
• Reining in Tech Oligarchs:
  • Van Hollen supports regulatory action and campaign finance reform but acknowledges the complexity and lack of easy solutions. [51:41–52:10]

13. Approach to Israel Arms Transfers

• “I oppose transferring offensive weapons to Israel… I’ve continued to vote… to not allow transfers of more offensive weapons so long as Israel is violating international law.” [62:58]
• Sees a distinction re: Iron Dome (“defensive weapons”). [63:06]

14. Prospects for Reform and Hope for Democracy

• Despite the current dire state, Van Hollen expresses hope:
  • “I do think we have good, strong antibodies to protect our democracy…if we all step up and step out, we will be successful.” [61:00]

Notable Quotes (with Timestamps and Attributions)

• On Iraq:

  • “When you go in and break stuff, you really need to know what’s going to happen next. It’s easy to go in and break stuff. It’s building stuff back that’s really hard.”
    — Sen. Chris Van Hollen [04:05]

• On U.S. Double Standards in Foreign Policy:

  • “There’s another example where we are saying one thing and doing another.”
    — Sen. Chris Van Hollen, on U.S. policy in Pakistan [15:42]

• On Gaza:

  • “We were witnessing indiscriminate bombing, and that there were violations, ongoing violations, not just of international law, but US law.”
    — Sen. Chris Van Hollen [20:35]

  • “I call what’s happening in the West Bank slow motion ethnic cleansing.”
    — Sen. Chris Van Hollen [21:05]

• On ICE Funding:

  • “I will not vote for one more penny… for the Trump ICE operation… I will not support advancing [DHS funding] without the kind of reforms that Chris Murphy is talking about.”
    — Sen. Chris Van Hollen [37:29]

• On Democratic Leadership and Direction:

  • “It's going to be important to see whether the candidates [in 2028]…stood on this question of conscience.”
    — Sen. Chris Van Hollen [30:42]

• **On Democratic Party Fight Club”

  • “If you want to have a big tent Democratic Party and I do, then you can't say you're not going to endorse… the guy who was the Democratic nominee for mayor.”
    — Sen. Chris Van Hollen [43:09]

• On Accountability:

  • “I think people need to be held accountable, accountable under the law… if there are people engaged in criminal violations… they need to be held accountable.”
    — Sen. Chris Van Hollen [55:58]

• On Hope for Democracy:

  • “I do think that we have good, strong antibodies to protect our democracy. They are being threatened as never before. But I do have faith…if we all step up and step out, we will be successful.”
    — Sen. Chris Van Hollen [61:00]

Important Timestamps

• 03:55 – Van Hollen reflects on his 2003 Iraq War opposition.
• 08:03 – Story of collecting evidence on Kurdish genocide.
• 12:00 – Critique of corruption in U.S. foreign policy (Venezuela, Trump).
• 19:55 – Confronting Biden administration on Gaza.
• 22:54 – Van Hollen on the genocide debate.
• 28:54 – Refusing AIPAC money and Democratic accountability.
• 37:29 – Drawing the line on ICE funding for reforms.
• 46:14 – Medicare for All support and reasoning.
• 61:00 – Reflections on hope and resistance in the U.S.

Memorable Moments

• The "Pandora's Box" of Iraq – Van Hollen’s warning about Iraq’s fallout and U.S. policy strengthening Iran.
• ICE and Lawlessness – Van Hollen’s unequivocal stance against “Trump’s ICE operation” and support for leveraging funding to effect DHS reform.
• Progressive Party Uprising – The existence and motivations of the Senate “Fight Club” to push back on Democratic establishment inertia and top-down candidate selection.
• Calls for Accountability and Reform – Both in foreign policy (Palestine/Israel) and at home (ICE, DOJ, party leadership).
• Hopeful Resistance – Van Hollen's optimism about American "antibodies" capable of combating the current wave of lawlessness and authoritarianism.

Conclusion

This episode stands out as a candid, combative, and nuanced discussion about America’s standing at home and abroad. Senator Van Hollen brings a rare long-term perspective on foreign policy, critiques both parties' failures, and emphasizes the need for accountability, reform, and active citizenship in restoring American democracy and credibility. The conversation is grounded in specifics—policy battles, personal experiences, and current crises—while also reflecting on broader philosophical and ethical dilemmas facing the United States today.