← Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar
Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar
11/24/25: MTG Resigns, Zohran Trump Meeting, Zohran Endorses Hakeem Jeffries, Ukraine Peace Deal
01:16:09
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- [00:00]
Krystal Ball
This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human. It's finally here Black Friday at ulta.
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Saagar Enjeti
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Saagar Enjeti
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Krystal Ball
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Saagar Enjeti
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Krystal Ball
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Saagar Enjeti
Head into Ulta Beauty and shop Black Friday deals now through November 29th.
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Krystal Ball
Ulta Beauty gifting here. Lowe's knows that saving is always top of mind.
- [00:39]
Saagar Enjeti
This season shop early Black Friday deals like 25% off select pre lit artificial.
- [00:44]
Krystal Ball
Christmas trees plus get free select Dewalt Cobalt or Craftsman tools when you buy.
- [00:49]
Saagar Enjeti
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Krystal Ball
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- [01:06]
Saagar Enjeti
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- [01:08]
Krystal Ball
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- [01:20]
Saagar Enjeti
Hey guys, Sagar and Crystal here.
- [01:21]
Krystal Ball
Independent media just played a truly massive role in this election and we are so excited about what that means for the future of this show.
- [01:28]
Saagar Enjeti
This is the only place where you can find honest perspectives from the left and the right that simply does not exist anywhere else.
- [01:34]
Krystal Ball
So if that is something that's important, important to you, Please go to BreakingPoints.com, become a member today and you'll get access to our full shows unedited ad free and all put together for you every morning in your inbox.
- [01:45]
Saagar Enjeti
We need your help to build the future of independent news media and we hope to see you@breakingpoints.com Good morning everybody. Happy Monday. We have an amazing show for everybody today. What do we have Crystal?
- [01:59]
Krystal Ball
Indeed we do. A lot of very interesting things happening this week. Marjorie Taylor Greene has announced she is resigning so we will watch her announcement video and give our thoughts on what is going on there. I actually don't really have any theories so can talk about that. Fallout from the Zoran Trump meeting. Excited to hear Sagar's take on that since we haven't heard from him yet. Negotiations on a Ukraine potential Ukraine Russia peace deal continue. Breaking developments there. Ceasefire has been broken by Israel in both Gaza and Lebanon. Jeremy Scahill is going to join us with the latest. Mike Huckabee met with a traitor who has threatened to nuke the United States, who thinks we should be nuked if we don't do what Israel wants. You think that I'm exaggerating? I'm literally quoting from what he himself had to say. So certainly worth taking a look at that. And a bunch of MAGA accounts actually accidentally revealed on Twitter as foreigners. That's a fun one right there.
- [02:53]
Saagar Enjeti
Can't wait for that. That's the Thanksgiving special that we needed. Thank you to everybody who's been signing up. BreakingPoints.com Please join us and support our show if you're able to by joining our Premium membership program. BreakingPoints.com if you can, go ahead and support us. If not, no worries. Please just hit subscribe on our YouTube channel. If you're listening to this, a podcast Sen an episode to a friend. It is very, very helpful. Also, everybody wish Crystal a very happy birthday. Happy Birthday, Crystal.
- [03:18]
Krystal Ball
Thank you.
- [03:19]
Saagar Enjeti
All right, so let's get into it. Marjorie Taylor Greene. She resigned from Congress. In an absolutely shocking move, she released a near 10 minute long video explaining it. We've cut some of the most important points. Let's take a listen.
- [03:34]
Krystal Ball
And I do not want my sweet district to have to endure a hurtful and hateful primary against me by the President that we all fought for, only to fight and win my election. While Republicans will likely lose the midterms and in turn be expected to defend the President against impeachment after he hatefully dumped tens of millions of dollars against me and tried to destroy me. It's all so absurd and completely unserious. I refuse to be a battered wife hoping it all goes away and gets better. If I am cast aside by the President and the MAGA political machine and replaced by neocons, big pharma, Big tech, military industrial war complex, foreign leaders, and the elite donor class that can never ever relate to real Americans, then many common Americans have been cast aside and replaced as well. There is no plan to save the world or a 4D chess game being played. When common American people realize and understand that the political industrial complex of both parties is ripping this country apart, that not one elected leader like me is able to stop Washington's machine from gradually destroying our country. And instead the reality is that they common Americans, the people, possess the real power over Washington, then I'll be here by their side to rebuild it. I'll be resigning from office with my last day being January 5, 2026 and I look forward to seeing many of you again sometime in the future.
- [05:12]
Saagar Enjeti
I'm Totally shocking, shocking move. Marjorie Taylor Greene there saying she doesn't want to endure her district, have to endure a hateful primary challenge race. I guess it opens up a whole bunch of questions immediately. Is she running for president in 2024? Is she just fed up with the system? There was one theory that she wanted her pension. But immediately resigning means that they will immediately trim the very, very narrow margin for Republicans actually in the House of something they could barely afford to lose a vote on. But I think more importantly, it's like a direction of the party conversation. There was some immediate talk of her possibly running for president. She's emphatically denying a two please. We can go and put this up here on the screen. Time magazine wrote a piece saying that she potentially could be running for president. She says Time magazine claims sources told her I'm running means this is a complete lie and they made it up because they can't even quote the name of the people. I am not running for president. I've never said I wanted to. I have only laughed about it when anyone would mention it. If you fell for this headlines, you're being lulled every day into psychosis by the political industrial complex. She says, why would I even want to run for president and sell out to big donors? I am personally thinking there's a lot of secondary motivation conversation. Maybe she's just fed up. I really think that Glenn Greenwald has described her as a civilian. The ideal from the Founders times of the idea of a civilian who just interested in Congress wants to run for office to try and affect change. I think she saw the system from the inside and I think she also was a genuine believer in Trump and so getting screwed here by Trump on the party line and also standing up for a lot of things. She believed in Epstein and others. She just said, look, I'm very rich. She's filthy rich. She likes where she lives, she has family and all that. Why would I continue to embrace this charade? But I do think it's a loss. I think especially because of having some dissonant voices. I'm not so sure she would've lost her primary. Thomas Massie seems to be hanging on very simply. But who knows, who knows? She certainly could have. It's definitely gonna be a little bit more competitive and she certainly would have at least had a fight on her hand. So I don't know. I mean, shocking. It's definitely shocking. She's decided up and out to resign. One of the most prominent voices in all of MAGA for the last what Six, seven years.
- [07:23]
Krystal Ball
Yeah. I think it's unfortunate because, like you said, I mean, there's so few voices in the Republican Party who are willing to go against the grain, who are willing to speak out against Trump, who are willing to buck him on literally anything. And so it's a shame that right as she's getting very interesting and kind of at the peak of her power, in a sense, certainly in terms of the attention economy, but also in terms of just, you know, that they have an extremely narrow margin in the House, so anything she and Thomas Massie team up together to do, they only need to get a couple more Republican on board to thwart the majority. So she has a lot of power there that she obviously won't have once she resigns from office. So I really think it's a shame, actually, that she's decided to make this move. Look, I have no idea whether she does have future ambitions, you know, to run for Senate, to run for president, whatever that may look like. I do think that. But it's worth contemplating this moment in the Republican Party where Trump is increasingly a lame duck. He's at one of the weakest points in his power. His approval ratings are terrible on the economy, which has always been his flagship issue. He just was delivered a, you know, a massive electoral rebuke. I think she's right that the midterms are gonna extreme. Be extremely ugly for the Republicans. So, you know, certainly she and others are thinking about what's gonna come after Trump, and perhaps there's some positioning of herself for that. Although, again, you would think that being in the House would set her up better for some future political ambitions than deciding to resign, which normally, you know, as. As it wears on, people don't really look kindly at that. They feel like, okay, well, at the moment when the district actually needed you and we needed your voice, you decided to step away. I will say, though, too, that the political landscape is very different now than it used to be, where she could be still incredibly prominent and powerful just by being, you know, on the podcast circuit and on the mainstream media circuit. And so perhaps she's thinking that, too, that she'll be a little bit more. A little bit more free to just say what she wants and not have to take difficult votes and just position herself however she wants to for the future. And then, Sagar, there's also the possibility that you mentioned, which is just. She is. Feels betrayed by a president that she supported extremely loyally, like went to the bat for, and when, you know, aggressive ways and says she spent Millions of her own dollars to help support brought her into politics. There's no way she'd be a member of Congress without Trump and the MAGA movement. And then he turns around and calls her a traitor. So I'm sure she feels disillusioned by that. She's also talked about threats on her life, the type of death threats that she's been receiving. And so it may well just be that she's like, screw it. I don't really want to do this anymore. And I don't want to have to go through what may have been a very tough primary if Trump really did back some candidate against her in a district that is a very red and Republican district. So she just may have said, you know what? Life is too short. I don't feel like dealing with this crap.
- [10:19]
Saagar Enjeti
We will find out, I think, the answer to all of these questions in about six months to seven months. So if she's fully on the podcast circuit, I'm like, okay, then clearly she's angling for something. She's venting some of her frustration. We may just never hear from her again. I think it's very possible she's just like, forget it, I'm done. I gave it my shot. I really believed in this movement. I spent a lot of my own money. I saw the beast from the inside. And at the end of the day, you know, this is not something that has any redemption value. I do think it's very. You know, it's sad for a couple of reasons. First and foremost is you were at the peak of your powers. Not just rhetorically, but as I mentioned, you had one of those stray votes as a reason that the House margin, it's so low that if you actually take very hard line positions, as you did on the Epstein discharge, as you saw, you only need four or five Republicans to sign on. And you can actually make some things happen in terms of your own district. You're very much at the peak of your powers. You can make serious demands in terms of things that are coming to you. Your ability to parlay this into media appearances. I mean, being a member of the United States House of Representatives is always going to afford you opportunities. I guess the steel man case for it is now you no longer have to take stupid votes. Now you have no pressure from inside of the system. You have no Mike Johnson threatening, let's say, to defund your district. Or you don't have no Trump who has to. You don't have to dedicate probably hours, years of your life to a primary challenge. To a campaign. Campaigning is difficult, even in the very best of circumstances. A contested campaign may have made that much more difficult. We really don't know. But as I said, if she continues to keep her voice out there, then I think her calculus would have been being in the House was a loss. I already have my established name now, potentially starting a super pac, an organization, remaining involved in politics. That's very much, I think, a live issue. It's also very possible that she just sails into the sunset. She says, you know, I'm a gazillionaire. I'm literally worth tens of millions of dollars, and I own a lot of land down in Georgia. What's not to live a full and a good life?
- [12:20]
Krystal Ball
Well, if she. If she's thinking of doing the podcast circuit, I do have one podcast to recommend. We've been wanting to book a while. For months.
- [12:28]
Saagar Enjeti
Yeah. I mean, one of the most difficult. Her and Thomas Massie. I don't know what's going on. If you're listening, I know there's a lot of people on Capitol Hill who are listening. Make it happen, guys. I don't get it.
- [12:38]
Krystal Ball
Love to speak with them, love to ask these questions, put these questions right to her. I mean, one other possibility I'll hold out is. Which I think has a good. You know, this does have some logic to it, is that she was actually afraid of a primary challenge and thought with Trump putting his full force behind someone, I think you have to be. I mean, Trump, as much as he's in a weakened state, still has so much pull with his own base, and we could pull that element. I don't remember what number it is that lists all the Republicans who went against Trump and then had to resign. And the logic for all of them was basically the same, like, I'm going to lose, you know, and I would rather go out on my own terms. Trump has turned against me. He has called me a traitor. He is, you know, calling me ugly names and saying I'm a rhino and all those sorts of things. And so if I stick around, I'm going to lose. I'd rather go out on my own terms. And, you know, if that's what she is thinking, it's smart politically. If you want to continue to have a voice and potential future political. Potential political future. It's smart to go out before that primary challenge even really emerges, because then it looks less like my hand was forced because I was going to get my butt beat. It's more like, okay, well, this is, you know, this is my moment. I'm taking the initiative. I'm doing this in the way that I want to do it. And the primary challenge is just sort of like, purely speculative at this point. But that does, to me, have a logic to it. Again, especially since you look at the history of all of these individuals who broke with Trump on a variety of issues and end up either losing or resigning and having to leave the party, effectively.
- [14:21]
Saagar Enjeti
I will say, if you look at that list, 10 out of the 11, they were just neocons. And that's why the Marjorie thing is so different. Is she. I mean, she really was, I guess.
- [14:31]
Krystal Ball
But Sagron look at, like, Lindsey Graham as besties of Trump. I mean. Yeah, yeah, no, I like Trump. It doesn't. There's no ideological tenor to it. You're right that what's different about Marjorie Taylor Greene is the fact, like, she was a true believer. She comes directly out of this movement. Most of those people, they were already members of Congress or senators, and then they either, you know, tried in some ways to accommodate themselves to the rise of Trump's takeover of the party, or they, you know, resisted it the entire time, whether across the board or in certain important ways. She is different in that way. But at the end of the day, you know, Trump still gets to say what Mag is, and he says, Lindsey Graham is great and he's going to do his first fundraiser with him, and Marco Rubio is the Secretary of State. And, you know, she stood with the Epstein victims, and so she's on the ounce.
- [15:18]
Saagar Enjeti
Yeah. Wow. You know, maybe it's just clarifying. Here's what Trump had to say. A three guys. Let's take a listen. Are you willing to forgive Congresswoman Taylor Greene? Forgive for what?
- [15:27]
Krystal Ball
Now, we just.
- [15:28]
Saagar Enjeti
I just disagree with her philosophy. She started backing perhaps the worst Republican congressman in our history. You know, stupid person named Massey. And I said, go your own way. And once I left her, she resigned because she would never have survived a primary. But I think she's a nice person. She's a nice person, but she never would have survived a prime again. I mean, I just don't think so. If you look at. Look, look at Thomas Massie. He's running way ahead of all of his opponents. He has brought in incredible amounts of small dollar donations from people who appreciate him standing up. He also has survived multiple primary challenges down there. Look, Georgia is different. I'm not gonna say that these are the same types of districts, but if you made it a district first type of campaign and really made it about the issues, maybe it would've worked. Again, I have no clue. Trump is historically unpopular. He also has a lot of Republicans who seem to be dissenting on the voter level, not necessarily at the high level. So I don't know. I mean look, it's very possible at the same time with Trump just to underscore what you were saying with Donald Trump and kind of his definition of maga. Let's put this up here on the screen. This was a four. We can go ahead and look. This was his initial truth. Much less nice than his stated comments. Marjorie Trader Brown because of plummeting poll numbers. I don't know where the brown comes from. And not wanting to.
- [16:54]
Krystal Ball
You explained it Sager. It's because grass, when it rots, turns brown.
- [16:57]
Saagar Enjeti
Oh, okay. That's why he's lost his touch.
- [16:59]
Krystal Ball
Goes face.
- [17:01]
Saagar Enjeti
A primary challenger with a strong Trump endorsement has decided to call it quits. Her relationship with the worst Republican congressman in decades, Tom Massie of Kentucky, also known as Rand Paul Jr because he votes against the Republican Party, did not help her for some reason, primarily that I refused to return her never ending barrage of phone calls. Marjorie went bad. Nevertheless, I always appreciate Marjorie and thank her for her service to our country. President DAN I mean this is where it just really, you know, disgusts me. Is Marjorie trait. Marjorie Taylor Greene is a traitor. And meanwhile what we're gonna cover in our show later is your administration literally hosted an actual traitor at the US Embassy in Jerusalem and you endorsed and condoned that meeting. A real traitor, a guy who sold secrets to Israel and you condone that meeting. Okay, so you know, let's look up the definition of traitor and of treason by the while we're at it repulses me on this issue and it's one of those where look, we'll see again how things will come together for the Trump administration. They are all over the place. They're trying to pursue this peace deal in Ukraine which we're gonna talk about. It has a decent enough shot. It's maybe. But also they're considering invading Venezuela potentially this week. Sometime next week. You've got the coalition which seems be to in my opinion, in shambles. Here's Alex Jones who I would decided to say perhaps part of more of the MAGA contingent explaining why he may be breaking from Trump soon. Let's take a listen and I'm just going to say it point blank. I'm not a bandwagon person. I don't pile on other people are doing something. But I know MTG well she's a Woman of incredible integrity, brought up poor self made, very successful construction company. And it sounded to me like she was thrown in the towel just because she can't be part of something that's quote, a lesser of two evils and she's very popular in her district. I, I'm not a person that is normally conflicted, think I have a lot of knowledge, a lot of depth, a lot of sources, a lot of context. And when I do get conflicted on something, I just have to go to God with it and pray about it a lot. I am seriously inches away from not supporting Trump anymore. Inches away from not supporting him anymore. So, I mean, I don't know, it's, at the very least you could say this, maybe Alex is just reading the tea leaves. You know, I don't know where his own, you know, he's been all over the place, especially on the Epstein issue. In my opinion, he's been missing in action from a lot of that. He's been, he has called the Trump administration and Israel out and all of that. So I'll give him credit, I guess where it is due. But you know, if you look at the audience, that type of contingent, I don't think it's a secret that they have been extreme, extremely dissatisfied with the Trump administration. You've got voices like Tim Dillon and others speaking again. I saw Joe Rogan talking about the Thomas Massie thing. So it's clear that there's enough of a demographic kind of swinging against a lot of what was promised on the campaign trail. It's been a year now. What have you done for me lately is always the prevailing segment in politics and it doesn't look like there are any major developments outside of Ukraine that could potentially fulfill some of those, especially in the midst of Epstein. And look, I mean we have 30 days, so sometime before Christmas we're all gonna have a news cycle about those files release. The amount of redactions expected are going to be ones which just don't really reveal quite a lot. I'm happy to be wrong, I would love to be wrong if they actually did fully release it. But there's not a general expectation that that's going to happen. And so, yeah, I mean, if you put some Venezuela war on top of all that, it's not looking good. I don't think it's looking, I think.
- [20:49]
Krystal Ball
That, I think the 2025 elections were a big wake up call for people because when you were seeing these special elections that were going shifting like 15 points towards Democrats, even 20 points towards Democrats, it's like, all right, but those are special elections. This weird time. They've got this very high turnout voter base. When you saw the shellacking that Republicans took in in state after state after state, including like at the local level, like these, you know, right wing school board members got swept down of office. And just a real reckoning kind of across the board, then you have to grapple with, okay, the poll numbers aren't fake. There is a major backlash brewing here. Trump is old and not at the top of his game and seems more focused on his ballroom than really anything else. American people are pissed about the state of the economy. I think that that was a real wake up call for a lot of Republicans and, you know, people like Alex Jones and because you, you could have lived up to that moment in the, you know, oh, we just won this major election, we won this major mandate, the American people are with us, the polls are wrong, et cetera. And you just can't really deny that reality anymore. So I think that's part of the, you know, the backdrop of what's going on here, both with Marjorie, with Alex Jones and, you know, why we're seeing more and more dissatisfaction sort of vocally expressed from the coalition.
- [22:13]
Saagar Enjeti
Yeah, that's right. I mean, look, the permission structure is obvious from the 2025 election. It's also, I think, obvious in terms of just the true, like the actual deliverables from the administration so far. And we've got even the signature achievement, the ceasefire. Right. Probably their single best foreign policy achievement. It's kind of falling apart right now, guys, which we're gonna cover pretty soon in Israel. Like, I wouldn't be shocked if three months from now we're back to the full on war in Gaza. Not to mention what's happening with Lebanon, with Bibi and his own political coalition problems. They have no ability to tamp any of this stuff down. So I don't know, I think at the end of the day, her loss, it tells us something. I'm just not entirely sure. Or her resigning, it tells us something. I just don't know yet what it is. I hope she runs. I really do. I think we need more people like her.
- [23:02]
Krystal Ball
Just, I think it'd be interesting. I do, I do think it's a shame that she resigned though. You know, she was an important voice in there and I think even I saw Trump is planning on making some announcement about healthcare and trying to do something about healthcare premiums. We'll see what that amounts to. But I think part of the reason he felt pressured to do that is because of her consistent advocacy in that direction. I mean, I don't think it was the sole factor, but having someone within the party who'd been a MAGA loyalist and a Trump loyalist list specifically speaking out about the cost of health care, I think, you know, I do think that that mattered. And the fact of the matter is, as much as we would love to self aggrandize about how important it is to be a podcaster, there's nothing like having actual power within the system, you know, in order to effectuate change 100%.
- [23:47]
Saagar Enjeti
You talked about health care. Epstein. Epstein was dead without her. I really believe it's not just Massey she needed. She led the charge, her and she, she wrangled a few of the other votes. Her ability to stand up to the White House and say absolutely not. She did a lot of the media stuff, not just on healthcare, she's remained steadfast on Israel. I actually think that type of pressure was one of the reasons why they did ultimately go with the ceasefire deal. Because they could see that some people like Marjorie and others were beginning to really crack in the foundation. If you think even Ukraine, I mean, a lot of the signature foreign policy stuff, that's been fights that's been happening behind the scenes. Marjorie Taylor Greene has been, in my opinion, you know, on the good side of the issues and kind of leveraging her power and her voice. So there. So losing it is. It's going to be a tough, tough loss because at this point it's just Thomas Massie. Massie, you know, he's his own person and he's always. He's not maga. Right. He's really his own guy.
- [24:42]
Krystal Ball
He's a libertarian. He's an ideological libertarian, relatively consistent in his viewpoint. But that, yes, is different than maga.
- [24:48]
Saagar Enjeti
There's no hate towards a guy. He is, he's always, he's been exactly the same. I've been many times on the other side side of the issue for him. But Marjorie, I mean for her, she had a real, I think, credibility and a voice. And so her loss is. It's a tough one, I think for the country and for the Republican Party, especially if you wanted to see a different direction. But it is what it is, I guess it's Donald Trump's party. Always has. People need to reconcile themselves to that. Let's get to Zoron.
- [25:15]
Krystal Ball
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- [25:18]
Saagar Enjeti
Of mind this season. Shop early Black Friday deals like 25%.
- [25:22]
Krystal Ball
Off select pre lit artificial Christmas trees. Plus get free select Dewalt Cobalt or Craftsman tools when you buy a select.
- [25:29]
Saagar Enjeti
Battery or combo kit. Lowe's we help you save ballot through.
- [25:34]
Krystal Ball
12 to three while supplies last selection varies by location. Visit your nearby Lowe's on Colorado street in Kennewick. Every holiday shopper's got a list. But Ross shoppers, you've got a mission like a gift run that turns into a disco, snow globe, throw pillows and.
- [25:50]
Saagar Enjeti
PJ for the whole family, dog included.
- [25:53]
Krystal Ball
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- [25:59]
Saagar Enjeti
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- [26:32]
Krystal Ball
So as you guys almost certainly know, Trump and Zoran Mamdani had a big meeting at the White House last week. Lot has developed since then. A lot of fall on Zoron went on Meet the Press, but Casey missed some of the highlights. Let's take a look at a little bit of how that went.
- [26:47]
Saagar Enjeti
Went Look, I think that there are many things in our city where we have to own the responsibility of it. Things that existed long before the president was the president. And those are also part of the message of our campaign was to take on a broken politics of the past. And I ran against a number of candidates who represented different versions of that past. And what we found time and again is that working people were left behind in the politics of our city. And what we're looking to do is put those people right back at the heart of our politics so that we don't have a situation where we're in the wealthiest city in the history of the world and yet one in five can't even afford $2.90 for a MetroCard. You know, we had some interesting conversation and some of his ideas really are the same ideas that I have. But a big thing on cost. You know, the new word is affordability. Another word is just groceries. It's sort of an old fashioned word, but it's, it's very accurate. We, we had discussions on something. I'm not going to discuss what they were, but that I feel very confident that he can do a very good job. I think. I think he's going to be. I think he is going to surprise some conservative people, actually, and some very liberal people. He won't surprise him because they already like him. I called the president a fascist. And your answer was, both President Trump.
- [28:03]
Krystal Ball
And I have been clear about our positions and our views.
- [28:06]
Saagar Enjeti
Are you affirming that you think President.
- [28:08]
Krystal Ball
Trump is a fascist?
- [28:09]
Saagar Enjeti
I've spoken about. That's okay. You can just say okay. It's easier. It's easier than explaining. I don't mind.
- [28:17]
Krystal Ball
I cannot get over, like, every time I watch back this meeting, I just can't get over it.
- [28:22]
Saagar Enjeti
It's wild.
- [28:23]
Krystal Ball
Yeah. I mean, we thought that he would be charmed by Zoron, but I could not have anticipated him being like, it's fine, you can call me fast. This is all good. Like, we're. We're best buds now. It's cool.
- [28:34]
Saagar Enjeti
I think Trump is charmed by him. I also think it shows Trump doesn't care about the Republican Party. And I think because going into the midterms, the plan was to try to use Zoran was gonna be like the new Pelosi. They were gonna put him in ads all across the Deep South. They're like, this is why you gotta come out and vote for a Republican. You gotta stop communism. They want him to be the ultimate boogeyman. And Trump is like, yeah, no, I'm actually good for the Trump administration. I actually thought it was smart. You take the rising politician, this new young voice on affordability. He's got this mandate. At the end of the day, like, you take somebody who really understood the same forces that got Donald Trump elected. Not just I'm talking about the issues, but also the way that you get elected being an insurgent, taking over party, beating establishment, coming in, actually reinventing campaign machinery, creating an incredible amount of buzz. It's a brand. Trump always respects that the most. And that's why I invited him, I think. And he wanted this image to try and conflate the two of them as kind up against some sort of party establishment. I also think it reveals a couple of things also, is that the establishment Democrats clearly have much less respect from Donald Trump than somebody like Azoran Mamdani. Cause Trump respects winners, and he also respects people who can reinvent something that is, you know, inside of an established system. This is New York City. This is one of the most machine political places in the entire world. So the fact that he prevailed is something that they had nothing But a choice. It also shows you for Trump is he's not wedded to party orthodoxy and he doesn't believe a lot of this bs. I actually thought that the fascist line was. It kind of revealed the veil of Kabuki from a lot of things. Like in terms of, oh yes, we call each other fascists, yes, we call each other communists, whatever, it's all in good fun. And it's kind of like the Dick Cheney funeral in reverse where it's like, yeah, we all called him a war criminal, but whatever, it's just about a big club. And I guess he's reinventing kind of what that club means for Zordon. I did. I mean, I don't know, I'm of two minds. I have always thought that him picking a fight with Trump would be good to his political benefit. What I thought that that meeting showed me, and this is actually heartening because I think this is a good thing. I think Zorin actually cares about doing some of the stuff that he ran on, which is awesome. Okay. Because at the end of the day, if you get defunded by the feds and you just end up in all this brawl with Tom Homan ICE and all that, that it's not gonna be, you know, you're not building 200,000 affordable housing units. It's just not going to happen. You're gonna be focused on trash, your city services, your subway. You would have huge problems, New York State. And he said, you know what? I gotta swallow my pride, I gotta schlep to the Oval. He didn't give too much, he didn't pull a Grichen Whitmer, right? Like he stood his ground. And you know, if you're a New York City voter, you know, I was very cynical about Zoran's ability to deliver just cause I kind of thought he was like a politician. At the end of the day, these guys just mostly care about what they like, getting elected. But I was like, oh man. No, he actually, he wants to do the stuff he ran on. And this is reality. Trump is the president. So you gotta charm the president. You need money or at the very least you gotta keep the spigot on. If you really want the subway. If you want free subway, free buses or 200,000 housing units, HUD, right, you're gonna have to work massively with Housing and Urban Development, you know, and that agency. So I think that's what he wanted. And so look, I don't know, perhaps it's a vision, a new vision of leadership. It's the Schein Bond model from a lot of the left. And I respect the hell out of him for the way that he did it. I really do.
- [32:10]
Krystal Ball
Well, your point is an important one, which is, you know, Trump was very obsequious. I mean, going out of his way in that clip we played to say we have a lot of the same ideas. You know, I think he's gonna. I think he could make New York great again. I thought the question he got about, would you feel safe l in New York City? He's like, absolutely no problem. Emily's question too, about, are you standing next to jihadists? I mean, that was the one that was really the most devastating to the Republican Party and especially Elise Stefanik trying to run for governor in New York. Now, I think she was going to get blown out anyway. But this certainly doesn't help her case because they were very much trying to make him into this national boogeyman that they could use in districts across the country. Trump totally took the air out of those ties. Now, we gotta say, like, I think the confrontation may still be brewing, right? This is today. They had this chummy meeting next week. Trump could be pissed off at Zoran and be sending in the ICE agents and the CBP and threatening their funding again. Like, I think we probably will see that eventually come to pass. But you're right about Zoran. You know, he, I believe, feels the weight of this office and the weight of the movement that he represents.
- [33:18]
Saagar Enjeti
Sense.
- [33:18]
Krystal Ball
He thinks very much about, like, the sewer socialists and the need to actually deliver. And he believes, I think, that his political project will live or die by whether or not he's actually able to govern effectively. So just through this meeting already, he's at least pushed off into the future, the, you know, the mass invasion of federal agents into the city, which even just that, even if the federal funding isn't threatened, then you're having to deal with that. And that's what the news is about. And it's a major problem, a major distraction from you trying to get your agenda passed. So I think he feels that very heavily. And while Trump was being, you know, was praising him and sort of contorting himself to be on Zoran's side, Zorin didn't give an inch in terms of what he viewed. He was not. He was very cordial to the president. You know, we talked about how much he appreciated the media, how he appreciated the opportunity for a partnership, but he didn't bend on his principles. And I think that mattered a lot in terms of how this was received. After the meeting, I thought there would be some left or some liberal, like, upset. There was a little tiny bit of that. But mostly people were just impressed with how he was able to handle himself and this sense of him coming into the meeting, taking control, and really sort of getting out of Trump what he wanted to get get out of Trump. Zorin went on with Kristen Welker, Meet the Press yesterday. And there's some interesting exchanges there, in particular about this, that moment we played where Trump's like, yeah, go ahead and call me a fascist. It's fine. Let's go ahead and take a listen to how Zorin handled that interview. Mr. Mayor Elect, just to be very clear, do you think that President Trump is a fascist?
- [35:01]
Saagar Enjeti
And after President Trump said that, I said, yes. So you do. And that's something that I've said in the past. I say it today. And I think what I appreciated about the conversation that I. I had with the president was that we were not shy about the places of disagreement, about the politics that has brought us to this moment. And we also wanted to focus on what it could look like to deliver on a shared analysis of an affordability crisis for New Yorkers.
- [35:23]
Krystal Ball
Yeah, throw this man off his game.
- [35:26]
Saagar Enjeti
I don't know. I will say internally, it makes no sense, right? Because it's one of those things. It's like, well, if you think he's a fascist authoritarian, then why would you meet with him? And it's like, well, why would you try to work together on some shit shared agreement? Right? You know, that's literally the opposite of the theory of any resistance. So in my opinion, it's kind of fake. But look, it would be fake, and it would also be weak if he backed down in terms of what he said. I will just say again, I mean, what I am so impressed by is every Democrat in the country knows how to win right now. It's easy. You don't have to do shit at this. People at this time, people are mad at Trump. They will never blame you. So you just stand up and you say, screw you, Trump. And you want Trump to go, look at what happened to Brandon Johnson. This guy was a bum in the city of Chicago, dead. Trump saved his ass. Same with Pritzker. It's not like Pritzker was popular. This is not just an American story. By the way, I've shared some of my reporting here. The president of Colombia, he's afraid that they're gonna lose the election. He is desperate to get sanctioned by Trump. Trump bailed out Lula down in Brazil with those tariffs. He screwed the Bolsonar Issos. Anywhere that Trump is seen as attacking you, it boosts your popularity. You literally didn't have to do anything. It would be to Zorin's benefit to have mass ice raids, like, throughout the city. It would be to his benefit to get cut off. Cause then you wouldn't have to do. You literally don't have to do anything. You could just go on MSNBC all day long and be like, oh, it's fascist story turn up, not do nothing. Every single one of your voters will back you because they're blamed Trump, Trump for not delivering on the promises. This time. I was like, man, wow, he actually cares. It's a rare thing in politics. Okay. You know, I've very rarely seen it.
- [37:06]
Krystal Ball
I think the Claudia Sheinbaum model is actually the model because she already had high popularity and she has one of the highest approval ratings of any world leader around the world. And the way she has handled Trump has not been to have this extremely confrontational approach. It is very reminiscent of what Zoran just pulled off in the Oval Office of I'm gonna stand firm. I'm not gonn pushed around, but I'm also gonna do a bit of a charm offensive, right? I'm gonna play to his ego. This is very easy to manipulate, man. And so she, I think, like, Zoran really wants not just to have a decent political standing, she wants to actually deliver for the people of Mexico. And so far, she's been effective in being able to do that. And Trump came in and there was all sort of bluster about we're gonna bomb Mexico and we're gonna invade Mexico and all that stuff. That has not happened. They have been able to have a collaborative relationship, and that has been effective for her, both in terms of her political standing, but more importantly in terms of the goals that she has as the president of Mexico. And so I actually think that that is probably the closest model you could look at for the way that Zoran is approaching this relationship with the Trump White House. Because, like you said, said, you have to deal in reality. He is the president. He has tremendous power. He can make your life incredibly difficult and incredibly miserable and make it impossible for you to be able to actually accomplish your governing goals. Just an aside, we could put B3 up on the screen of how seemingly smitten Trump was to this meeting. He posted, he did a photo dump on Truth Social of their photos in front of the FDR portrait. He even posted the one of Zoran just solo there in front of the FDR portrait, this one of them sharing a moment there outside. So I think Trump was suitably impressed. And Trump, he just can't resist the star power of Zoron. And I think you're right, Sagar, that for Trump, this actually is a good look for him. Makes him seem like he's also pragmatic. He's not an ideologue. He's sort of glomming on to the new hot thing who's put affordability at the center. He also wants to associate himself with that message of affordability. He wants to associate himself with the star outsider who's coming at the establishment, et cetera. I think he probably likes the idea that this kind of needles Schumer and Jeffries and the Democratic leadership as well. And he doesn't really give a shit about the fact that it's actually terrible for the Republican Party because at the end of the day, Trump is interested in what serves Trump.
- [39:47]
Saagar Enjeti
Yeah, of course. Look, in all cases, everyone there benefited, which is why I thought it was kind of fascinating and potentially a new model for politics. I'm like, hey, you know, I would love to see more stuff like this. Let's go put B4 up on the screen. Just give everybody an example. This is a very noteworthy tweet, only for, you know, kind of insiders, but this is James Blair, okay? James Blair is a very high level White House official. He's the White House Deputy Chief of staff and he's a 24, 24 political director for the Trump campaign. This guy has an office in the West Wing. And here he's, quote, tweeting a piece that says Mamdani says here he and Trump share a commitment to the affordability agenda. He says yes. You know why? Because they're not stupid. At the end of the day, they can look at polls, they can see exactly where the wind is blowing, and they see the problem that they continue to face on the economy. That's why Trump is going to come out with some new fangled health care plan, which it's funny for all the GOP to talk of price controls. The Trump plan, as currently floated, is basically telling healthcare companies you're not allowed to raise premiums. It basically isn't price control, which I think is fine. Hey, I'm cool with it. But he basically is like, we're not gonna subsidize you anymore, and you're just not allowed to raise premiums at all. That's kind of where he has pushed the Republican Party. Not just Zorin, by the way. We Talked about mtg, others that are working inside of the system now currently to try and at least, least address some of the anger or mitigate some of the pushback that will come next November in the upcoming midterm elections. They see this as a problem for them. So, you know, it is one where I really think it's just big picture. Trump is smart at the end of the day, understands brand and understands the power of people who can beat the establishment and people who have something different and interesting. And he says, you know what? I wanna connect myself to that. That's what he's been a political entrepreneur from the very beginning. Zoron, the smartest and easiest thing for him to do would have been to not go and to pick a fight with the Trump administration. This was a gamble, and so you do have to give it to him. He didn't pull a Whitmer holding the folder in front of his face in the Oval Office. Right? That was disastrous. It looked horrible for her. He didn't pull a Whitmer. And, you know, again, maybe I'm just the only person who's shocked to see a guy who actually wants to do the stuff that he ran on. It's been a long time. I don't really see it all that often in politics. And so that's the only takeaway. You're like, clearly, he actually cares. He wants to get some stuff done. So, New Yorkers, I rescind my take. Maybe you actually will get what you voted for. I'm hoping for you. All right? I want 200,000 more affordable units in there. It'd be awesome to see it, really would just. Cause, I mean, how many times have we seen this show, right? And, you know, we all know Spanberger, she's not going to do a goddamn thing. Mikey, Sheryl, all these other people, they're just going to stand, they're going to grandstand, they'll do some things on the margins, but anything transformation, it's not going to happen. A lot of these Democrats. So for Zoran, props to the guy. Seriously, it took. It took skill to navigate that.
- [42:49]
Krystal Ball
I think one other thing that I'll say. And. And then we can. We can just briefly touch on a little bit of the Republican reaction. But. But it also shows you the power of actually having an ideology that you're committed to, because Zoron knows what he's about, right? Zoron knows what his goals are, he knows what he's about. And so when he goes, his message of affordability and just relentless focus on that and here's how I'm gonna make life livable for average people. I mean, that has completely reshaped the entire national conversation. You talk about Mikey, Sheryl and Abigail Spamberg. I mean, Sheryl in particular really picked up on what Zoron was successful with in New York and incorporated a lot of that language into her campaign, including some specific promises about freezing the utility rates in the state of New Jersey. Trump clearly also now he's. He never talked really about. He never used the word affordability. Now he is using that and wanting to associate himself, himself with that message. And that's why, you know, so much of the conversation, the entire conversation in that Oval Office presser is around Zoron's priorities, around his ideological ideology, around what he wants to accomplish. And so I think it does show you the power of when you actually believe in something and when that something happens to dovetail with the interests of the American people. I mean, it is just an extraordinarily powerful force. It is obviously such a powerful force, course, that you can go from 1% in the polls to beating a political dynasty in just a matter of months. People were pointing out that that meeting with Trump happened almost a year to the day from that video that Zorin released where he was just standing on the street and nobody knew who he was talking to, people who had voted for Trump about why they voted for Trump. So truly a sort of astronomical rise that, again, I think Trump can't help but respect. And that has been so dynamic and so magnetic that it has completely reshaped the national conversation to the point of now you've got the Trump White House bending to some of those realities and having to feel like they gotta put down a healthcare plan, went on the campaign trail. All he said was, he's got a concept of a plan. So I'll just. We don't have to play these thoughts because we've gone on now long enough. But you had lots of Republicans who have postured about how much they hate him and how he's an Islamist and he's a jihadist and he's doing Sharia law and he's a terrorist and all of these things. And they had to invent some fake reality where he was, like, trembling at the feet of Trump. Jack Posobic, who was there in the White House, who asked some question to Zoron as well, was talking about Zoran was quivering there. It's like, dude, come on. I mean, we all saw the meeting. Like, let's be real about what this looked like Rudy Giuliani said that he was sick to his stomach seeing Zoran in the White House House. And Laura Loomer of course is just like having a full blown crash out because she just, I mean she's an open Islamophobe, like just like the most bigoted person against Muslims that you could possibly be. So to see her guy Trump in there incredibly friendly with Zoran, who again has been made out to be this like radical Islamist jihadist boogeyman by the Republicans. There was, there were a lot of different directions of cope going on from the right.
- [46:06]
Saagar Enjeti
Yeah, definitely. Because look, for them it was easy. Like this is some stuff that boomers in Alabama get very upset about, right? Like oh my God, New York City and all of this. And so for them like taking away that. But look, I actually think that's a good thing because running on like low IQ Islamophobia is just boring. And you know, it's a tried and true playbook I guess down in the south. But it also just, you know, it goes past issues, affordability. It's like if you can't grow anything else and if you don't have a solution which they're currently being caught with their pants down both on the economy and on healthcare, yeah, you're gonna get your ass beat and you know, if anything, it's kind of healing American politics.
- [46:47]
Krystal Ball
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Saagar Enjeti
Buy a select battery or combo kit. Lowe's we help you save ballot through.
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Krystal Ball
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Saagar Enjeti
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Krystal Ball
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- [47:22]
Saagar Enjeti
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Krystal Ball
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Saagar Enjeti
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- [48:12]
Krystal Ball
Yeah. Yeah. So I'll. I'll get my reaction on the other side of this. But as you guys have probably been tracking Hakeem Jeffries, who is, of course, the leader of the Democrats and the House. House has a primary challenger, a guy named Chio say, who is a DSA member. He's a leftist on the Democratic City Council. He and Zoron were close. He was a supporter of Zorin. Although he did actually jump into the. The primary game pretty late with a. I think a joint endorsement of a couple different candidates. In any case, Zoran had discouraged him from running against Jeffries. The suspicion is that he made some kind of a deal with Jeffries to get the endorsement. Endorsement prior to the primary. And part of that deal was like, I won't back a primary challenger. But not only did he not back Chiyo say, but he actually went to the DSA endorsement meeting to speak out against endorsement of him. So he really is, like, using his political capital to undercut a challenger to Hakeem Jeffries. Hakeem Jeffries has come up through politics as an adversary to the left. He has sucked in his position, just like on the merits. He has not done a good job, etc. Etc. So Zoron got asked in this Meet the Press interview, okay, so we know that you're backing Hakeem Jeffries in this primary, but do you want to see him as speaker of the House? Let's go ahead and take a listen to how Zoran played this. Democrats win the midterms. Do you want to see Leader Jeffries become the speaker of the House?
- [49:37]
Saagar Enjeti
Yes.
- [49:37]
Krystal Ball
Okay, that was a firm, quick answer. Yes. I mean, no. No equivocating. No word salad, no nothing. And I mean, I guess I'll start with the positives. I'm curious to get your reaction. You can put V8 up on the screen. Zoran's intervention and that DSA endorsement probably made the difference here because you had them voting not to recommend endorsing GSA's congressional run. This was the DSA Electoral Working group. Total of 1205 DSA members voted, 555 voted to recommend, 626 voted again. So it's pretty close vote. Very likely, again, that Zoran's intervention made the difference here. And so on the positive side, listen, if you're going to do it, I appreciate him not doing the words out and just saying, yes, I'm behind him. That's it. Let's move on. I understand why. I understand the logic. I think it is a similar logic as the one that leads him to, you know, go to the White House and strike up a friendly relationship with Trump, which is that he feels that. That the end of the day, he wants to do whatever he can and be as pragmatic as possible in achieving his agenda. On this decision, though, I don't think that the calculation really works out because Jeffries is not the President of the United States. He does not have that level of power in New York City. He cannot thwart your ambitions to that degree. And I truly believe that, whether it's Jeffries or Pelosi or Schumer or any of these Democratic establishment types, first of all, they're going to try to fuck you anyway, because they always do. AOC has tried playing this inside game. It has gotten her effectively nothing really in terms of actual concrete policy deliverables. And the only thing they really respect is when you have power and they have to kowtow to it. That's what's been going on more with Kathy Hochul, where she saw the strength of Zoron's movement and she has had to bend to his policy priorities. So in this instance with, you know, go throwing in behind Jeffries and being unequivocal about it and trying to undercut Chiyo, say, I think it is. I understand the calculation he's doing it doing. I disagree that this is the right approach in this case, because I think that Jefferies will respond much more to power and you will get much more of your way if he is truly having to look over his shoulder at a primary challenger and having to accommodate himself to your goals and your power.
- [51:58]
Saagar Enjeti
I totally agree. And let's. Let's lay the flip side of everything I just talked about about with Trump. Trump is capricious, and three runs from now, he could do it all over. And so now you're actually gonna have the visual of you in the Oval. And you have to deal with all the problems now here with Jefferies. And this is the theory behind the Trump meeting and the Jeffries endorsement is one in the same. I need to work with the political system in order to get my things done. Now, we talked about this before he won, and I will revert to my cynicism. Kathy Hochul, three days after the election. What does she say? Yeah, this whole free bus thing, it ain't out happening. She literally said that. She's like, it doesn't have the support in Albany, so it's not gonna happen. It's like, okay, well, that was one of your signature actual possible deliverables. The next one, the most difficult thing he wants to DO is build 200,000 units of affordable housing. You're gonna need federal dollars for that. You're gonna need some hud. You're gonna need zoning problems in New York City. You're gonna need the political establishment in New York to be defeated. And you are also gonna have to, you know, bulldoze this through with multiple different political systems. They don't have much of an incentive right now, now to work with you. So if Kathy Hochul, at the peak of Zoron, right after he gets elected, with all the buzz, is willing to come out and say, free buses not happening, that's a problem, right? Because you're not having a lot of leverage in the political establishment. She may face a primary challenge. She still doesn't care. She's still not willing to go along with.
- [53:11]
Krystal Ball
She does have a primary challenge from the Lieutenant Governor, Antonio Delgado, but that's my point.
- [53:16]
Saagar Enjeti
So even with the primary challenge, she's still not afraid. In order to come out and say that, you gotta be afraid.
- [53:21]
Krystal Ball
I will say, though, I don't know if you saw this. She does want to. She has changed her position on raising taxes in order to fund affordable child care, which is another one of his major priorities and maybe actually the most difficult one to accomplish. So expanding, you know, Bill de Blasio is able to expand to free pre K. That was one that is, you know, that's a huge. That would be a huge major new program that requires new revenue. And she has signaled she's willing to work with him on that. But again, I think that is because of the, you know, the power of his movement and her really reading the tea leaves about where the Democrats Democratic Party is. But, you know, so, like, I. I get it. He doesn't want to have the relationship Bill de Blasio had with Andrew Cuomo, where they just absolutely hated each other's guts. That made it very difficult for de Blasio to govern. It really ends up, you know, putting a sort of rock around the neck of his mayoralty, even though he is able to accomplish the universal pre K. So, like, Kathy Hochul has some genuine power and cards in this state, obviously, President Trump does as the President of the United States. I don't really understand what you need Hakeem Jeffries for? Yeah, I agree it may be there are things under this. I think it must be the case that there's some part of his power struck that I'm not seeing above the surface. But I don't really get what you need Hakeem Jeffries for, to be totally honest with you, and even putting that aside again, again, I think playing some more hardball and showing some more strength, especially when this guy, like, he barely passive aggressively endorsed you two days before the primary and now we owe him this big debt. Like, I just, I don't really understand the calculation that is going on here. Like I said, there may be things beneath the surface that I'm just not aware of that changes the calculation somehow. But I think in general, what we've seen from the left is that the approach to power has to be more muscular, showing more of the strength of the movement, showing, hey, you are going to pay yourself in your own district and have to worry about this primary challenge if you don't come more in our direction. To me, that seems like the much more effective approach to take. So, I don't know, maybe there are things going on here, dynamics I don't understand. But I don't really understand what it is that you need so badly from Hakeem Jeffrey that you're willing to just unequivocally back him, kneecap his primary opponent, et cetera.
- [55:48]
Saagar Enjeti
I think it's probably a backroom deal with power centers, right, Hakeem? He may not have no political popularity, he's still the fricking Democratic leader and he's got access to every billionaire in New York City who, if you wanna build housing, who owns all the housing, who owns all the buildings? I really think that's the only possible explanation. If we think back to the Oval meeting, that was brokered by one of these Trump friendly real estate moguls. So you can see how, look, this is the problem, as I've always said, with governing New York. This is a city run by the filthy rich. Like, at the end of the day, you will have to confront that. In some ways you can go against it. You could try. I mean, they're probably going to defeat you. Or you could try to work with them, which in this case he probably is doing. In the case of Hakeem, I'll say what I think is the craziest is the DSA stuff, because it's one thing to stay out of the race, which I think he should have done. I think the smartest thing would have been. Stay out, don't endorse. But don't un. Endorse.
- [56:44]
Krystal Ball
But yeah, you could just say, listen, that's up to the voters.
- [56:46]
Saagar Enjeti
Bingo.
- [56:47]
Krystal Ball
Right?
- [56:47]
Saagar Enjeti
That's a classic thing.
- [56:48]
Krystal Ball
People do that all the time. I trust the people in New York. They're gonna get to evaluate decision.
- [56:53]
Saagar Enjeti
Right. Bingo. Nobody asked you, nobody asked you to do. To come out affirmatively to endorse him and then go to the DSA meeting and say, don't endorse him. I also, by the way, I think this is a critical moment. Moment for the dsa because are you. It's basically like the Republican Party in maga. It's like, do you work for Zoron or do you stick to your own guns? This is the most counter DSA thing I've ever seen, is not endorsing Hakeem Jeffries, primary opponent. Like, what are we doing here? I don't know. I don't understand it at all on their part.
- [57:25]
Krystal Ball
Yeah, yeah. I mean, it is a real show of strength for Zoron with the organization, for sure. Sure. You know, I mean, the things that I've seen are she just joined DSA relatively recently, so they feel like, oh, he's a little bit of an opportunist. He had said that he voted for Bernie in 2016. He wasn't actually registered to vote in 2016. So apparently there are a few things like that that make them a little skeptical of him. But I don't know, my view at this point. Point is there's all this, like, oh, well. And then the other. The other pieces. I think it's a very difficult district to win. Like Hakeem Jeffries. Zorin won that district. He did. But Jeffries is well liked there and apparently it's going to be difficult to win. So that's the other piece. So what I've heard from their perspective is, number one, I guess she has not been a DSA member for long. So like, okay, is this opportunism? You see the Zoron wave. You're jumping on it. Number two, he said he voted for Bernie in 2016, apparently wasn't registered to vote. Number three, the district, I think, is genuinely a very difficult one to win. Hakeem Jeffries is popular. Yes, Zoran did win it, but apparently Jeffries has a lot of standing in the district. You're going to have to win over some of those, like older working class black voters that have been very difficult for leftists to be able to win. Now. Zoran won them actually, in the general election, but in the primary, they were largely with Andrew Cuomo. So that's kind of the electoral calculus. I just. I don't. I think it's an old way of thinking to do too much of, like, my God, can we win? Let me crunch the numbers, et cetera. There are so many left, insurgent candidates coming out of the woodwork. I think it really, to me, the way to go is to back a whole slew of them, and then some of them are going to lose, and some of them are going to get through, and some of them are going to get through. That you would not necessarily expect. Because what we have going for us now on the left is that the liberal Democratic base largely agrees with us now in a way that they really didn't previously. They sort of bought into the project. They believe they're the strongest fighters against Trump. You know, they buy in, certainly, to the policy project, although that's never really been the problem. The Democratic leadership is really defenestrated and deeply unpopular with the liberal base. My view is just like, get behind as many of these candidates as you possibly can. And even if Che Ose cannot win in that primary, Hakeem Jeffries having to worry about him, right, that's going to change the way he operates. That's going to change his political calculus. You can already see it with Richie Torres, who has drawn a primary challenger and is having to change some of the way he talks about Israel and tried. You know, he came out right away and said, we can't have these Islamophobic attacks on Zoro. And, like, you can see the way he's having to accommodate him and change himself in real time to make sure that he can defeat a potential. A primary challenge from his left. So in my view, if you have all of these Democrats having to look over their shoulder to the left and worry about what is coming, even though many, many, you know, or if not most of those challenges won't succeed just because of the power of incumbents, that's still gonna change your political landscape. And we see that happen on the right. I mean, that's what the Tea Party wave did, right? You had people who lost in the primaries, but more than that, you had the whole Republican Party having to worry, like, what is coming for me from the right. And that changed in the overall approach to politics. So that's my view of the approach here. Rather than being like, my God, I don't know if he can win, just get behind as many of these candidates as possible who are strong on your issues. And Gyoza is strong on DSA's issues and has been a left voice on the city council now, so has a proven track record. That's my view of how you know, how to play this moment for, you know, for DSA and for the left more broadly.
- [61:26]
Saagar Enjeti
Anyone out there, you're an idiot if you're this whole like, oh, well, he didn't vote. Shut up. All right? This is politics. It's about opportunists. Who do you think you're dealing with? You think you're dealing with like normal, well adjusted people? No. The way that you win is to make your side politically convenient. It's like when all those neocon Republicans started calling themselves maga. All right, that was a victory for maga. Now it should have come with something like, in terms of, well, then you're gonna have to change this. So that's a critique. But why do they call themselves maga? That's what the voters want to hear. That's what you do. That's how you win. You think that everyone just Pollyanna voted for the Civil Rights act or everyone just Pollyanna just comes around like, oh, actually I've had a total change of heart. No. All right. They do it for political opportunistic purposes. That's how you win. Shit, read a book. These people are just so pie in the sky. Honestly, that's a loser mentality.
- [62:19]
Krystal Ball
I mean, I agree. The fact that it is now the cynical political move is to be a DSA member, like, guys take the win. That's great. That has never been the case before. Now you're like, are you are adopting their issue set, you're positioning yourself in their lane. Like, I don't really care what's in his heart, you know, I care about what political actions are being, being compelled. And you know, after the fact, if he doesn't stick to his principles, if he gets elected and doesn't stick to his principles, then you can un endorse. You could back a primary challenge or whatever. Do what you need to do to discipline your, you know, people who run with your backing. But yeah, for now, just if they're with you, be with them. Make these Democrats have to fear you and worry about whether you're gonna back a challenger against them.
- [63:11]
Saagar Enjeti
Think about this. They're like, he's a political opportunist cuz he lied about voting for Bernie. You should be happy about that. You should want people to lie about that. All right, come on. It's like all these Republicans who all voted for like Jeb Bush and then they lie that they've been his Trump supporter. That's a victory for Trump morons. All right. I don't know.
- [63:28]
Krystal Ball
Yeah, this is where not even really sure. I mean, and I also, I'm not really even sure that it's fair with regard to Chiyo say, because like, I mean, nobody says he's always certainly been a progressive, whether he's like a brand, a newish DSA member or not. Like, he's definitely broadly on the left. So this isn't like someone who just showed up and suddenly flipped all of their positions, you know?
- [63:48]
Saagar Enjeti
I don't know. Learn how to win. That's what winning looks like.
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Saagar Enjeti
Every story begins somewhere for your child. It could begin with a Guardian bike, built right here in the usa, engineered for safety and designed for confidence. Kids of all ages are learning to ride in just one day. No tears, no frustration. It's why Guardian is America's favorite kids bike. And the the New York Times and Wirecutter's top pick three years in a row. This holiday season, give the gift that's safer, smarter and built to last. Visit guardianbikes.com to save up to 40% on all bikes, plus a free accessory Bundle worth over $100. All right, let's get to Ukraine. Turning now to Ukraine. Some major developments over the last couple of days on a potential Ukraine peace deal. There's been a lot of back and forth between the United States on whether a peace plan is even real or not. There is officially some progress, at least, at least for right now. The United States, the Europeans and the Ukrainians met in Geneva over the weekend. This is what the Ukrainian lead negotiator had to say. Let's take a listen. We have very productive first session with distinguished American delegation. We have very good progress and we are moving forward to the just and lasting peace. Ukrainian people deserve and want this peace more than anymore anyone in this planet. We thank our big friends, United States.
- [66:00]
Krystal Ball
And personal President Trump and his team.
- [66:03]
Saagar Enjeti
To their commitment to bring this peace. And we will continue to work today. As Secretary said, we will be working in coming days to join proposals and we will also will engage our European friends. And of course the final words will be of our leaders, of the president of United States and Ukraine. And I hope that we can achieve the good progress today. Okay, so that was the words from the negotiator there. For the Ukrainian side, there has been so much back and forth on a peace plan. There's a European counter proposal. Let's go ahead and put the next element up on the screen. I'm going to go ahead and re from some of the most key parts of what eventually was accepted by the United States as its outline for a peace plan. Here are the key points. Number one, the size of the Ukrainian armed forces would be limited to 600,000 personnel. Now this is a sticking point around the size of the Ukrainian military, the Ukrainians and the Europeans pushing it very, very hard against this. Ukraine currently has some 2 million people in the military, 900,000 active duty personnel. This was specifically a part which is being requested and being pushed by the Russian side because of course they don't necessarily want to sign a peace deal, some end to the war which would also keep a massive major Ukrainian military there as some sort of demilitarized zone and then of course keep the war continuing and make it so that some future, some sort of conflict may break out. Obviously that's up to them. They didn't necessarily have to invade in the first place. Not justifying it, just explaining from their side. But this is a huge sticking point for the Ukrainians and the Europeans, but one that was accepted by the US and was apparently requested or at least negotiated with the Russians. Number two, this is the big sticking point too. Ukraine agrees to enshrine in its constitution it will not join NATO. And NATO agrees to include in its statutes of provision that Ukraine will not be admitted in the future. I would say this is the biggest sticking point point out of all of them, Crystal, and this is the one which is directly countered in the European peace proposal that is put forward. Let's go back and rewind the clock all the way to the very beginning. What was the number one reason that Russia said that they invaded Ukraine? NATO, they said we want an assurance that Ukraine will never be in NATO. And then if you want to Rewind the clock even further. It's NATO that actually invited Ukraine and Georgia to be in the North Atlantic Treaty Organization in the first place, which was a huge sticking point point between the U.S. and Ukraine or the U.S. and Russia, specifically NATO and Russia, about encroachment, all that. We've gone a million times through the justifications and for the US side as to why it was a good plan. We've explained some of the Russian security objections to increased NATO encroachment in their traditional territory. Nobody said that they should have invaded, not justifying it in that way at all. But it is a political reality whenever you're a nuclear armed state with some nice thousand warheads. At the end of the day, they did invade Ukraine. And of course it's not like their military did all that well in the first couple of years. It's only recently with brute force and manpower, they've been able to achieve any military success at all. But the truth is, is we are where we are. There are probably a million or so people dead, hundreds of thousands who have been wounded, millions who have been displaced from Ukraine. The Russian military and the Russian people, more importantly, do not seem to care whatsoever that hundreds of thousands of their countrymen are being led to slaughter in Ukraine. They just don't care. It's kind of remarkable, honestly. It's not really something that I would have predicted. I thought it might have gone the way of Afghanistan. But they're in a much stronger position than they were in, let's say, a year or so into the war when the ability of the Ukrainians to actually mount a real counteroffensive could have happened. Putin's point from the beginning, planning, at least in these negotiations, has been I'm really not going to give up much some of this territory which I'm asking for. I'll either take it through blood or you can give it to me right now and we can stop the killing and then we can sign some sort of overarching peace agreement. But in my opinion, the European and Ukrainian position remains delusional. You are not going to be in NATO, period. It would actually be insane to give you NATO membership at this point. Point, because parts of your country which you claim is yours is literally under military occupation by a nuclear armed state of a foreign power. You can invoke Article 5 at any time. And there's a case, I think at least somewhat, given Putin's reaction, the Russian people's reaction and more, that NATO membership actually is just a non starter for a lot of the Russian population. Their political establishment and Vladimir Putin and their ability to continue and to fight this war. So what are we all going to do here? I'll just say what strikes me the most is that even this peace deal which guarantees, gives security guarantees for the remainder of Ukraine, that that's still not enough for the European. This is the best thing you could possibly get. You're basically getting some sort of NATO Article 5 style guarantee without being inside of NATO. Yes. You have to give up part of territory which are currently under Ukraine, Ukrainian occupation. That's a bitter pill to swallow. I understand. I just read a testimony from a Ukrainian soldier on the front line who, look, I am cherry picking, but he was like, guys, there's nobody here, it's all destroyed anyways and we're probably going to lose it in the first place. To be fair, 50% of some Ukrainian soldiers also say that they don't wanna accept the peace deal. But I don't know, I mean this entire thing, it's a boondoggle. It's a money laundering operation of EPA proportions on the Ukrainian side, insane corruption scandals that have been happening there day after day. Their own military, the average age somewhere between 40 and 50 years old. Yes, they've stood firm and you gotta of course give them credit for it, but they don't have a chance of holding any of this territory in the long run. You're going to lose it no matter what. I mean, it's just going to happen. The only question is how much money, how many lives and how much longer this thing has to continue. So I really don't know. I mean, I don't really think there's a weapon system in the world absent a nuke that we could give the Ukraine, Ukrainians that could help them accomplish their military objectives at this point. So it's pretty delusional.
- [72:19]
Krystal Ball
Yeah, I mean, I think we should acknowledge the deal is that as proposed is disgusting and unjust based on the fact that the Russians were the aggressors. You know, it includes giving up parts of so all of Crimea, Luhansk and Donetsk, even parts that the Russians have not been able to take militarily at this point. Kherson and Zaporizhzhia will be frozen along the current contact lines. But those other regions you're just handing over to Russia, you have the limits on Ukrainian military size and they're looking at this going okay, but they just invaded us and now you're limiting our ability to be able to fight back. And there's other pieces of this. I mean the Economic part of it is effectively, I mean, it's like colonial exploitation. You know, it's certainly another effort to make billions of dollars for Trump and his family and Wyckoff or whoever else is going to get their money grubbing hands on, on this. It is a disgusting and unjust plan. Okay, now we have to deal with reality. What are the alternatives? And you know, it may be that through the negotiations you can make this slightly more, you know, more just towards the Ukrainian side. It's not going to be fully just, there's no doubt about that. But you can, you know, maybe you can change some of the territorial requirements, maybe you can lift a bit of the size of the military. That will be allowed. Maybe you can change some of the different terms itself, etc. This is far from a done deal. But the reality is if you're gonna end the war at this point, it's going to be a hideous deal. It's going to be hideous. You know, it's going to be hideous, it's going to be unfair, it's going to be unjust, it's going to be, you know, all of those things. The question is, is the continuation of the war more hideous and more unjust? Is it going to lead to an even worse outcome? And unfortunately, I think that is where we are are unless we're willing to go all the way in and like be boots on the ground with them and go to a full blown war against, you know, this nuclear armed superpower, which I don't think is in the best interest of our country or the world. Unless you're willing to do that. You're talking about continued horror, continued war, continued blood and death. And very likely Russia ends up taking these parts of the territory that are being offered in this deal to begin with. So it's ugly. You know, it's an ugly. If we're going to end it now, it is going to be an extremely ugly end. But what's even uglier is to continue the war in this manner and just continue to bleed out an entire generation of Ukrainian men.
- [74:54]
Saagar Enjeti
Yeah, it's. Look, I get it, it's tough and it's very easy for me to say I live in the most powerful military in a country with the most powerful military military in the world. It's not up for negotiation. But that's not the case for the vast majority. And by the way, if you look at your own history, you are lucky to be alive. I mean, that's the truth. You are lucky that you get to remain as a polity in the first place, you have accomplished actually something quite great. You killed off the Russians from taking over your entire country. It's the Europeans and the US is fault for selling you a dream that you were gonna survive completely intact and you were gonna take back Crimea in the first place. But it got way too high on their own supply. And then the military reality of what it's like to fight Russia started to set in. That is the case. No. 1. I mean, look, the invasion of Russia was a disaster actually for Russia in the initial beginning. But major countries with huge industrial bases, with oil, and with nuclear weapons, they can absorb some blows. This has been the history basically of the Russian nation now for over 100 years. And all of the promised hopes of destroying the Russian economy didn't happen. Creating a coup against Putin. Nope, didn't happen. The only poo coup that they tried against him completely failed. And the guy, what is his plane crash or something like that? The Wagner group dude? Yeah. He died. So there's no organized political opposition. Putin threw everybody in jail that he wanted to. If anything, he solidified his control over the oligarchs who he thought were getting too friendly with the European powers. And the people are mostly with him. People still continue to join the military. They're paying out high pensions. Their economy is a war machine. And it's humming, it's doing okay. You just. None of these promises of how they were gonna end the war ended up happening. And that was basically gonna be the case from day one. Also looking at this, even from what the Ukrainians are trying to demand, look how much better off they would have been back in April if they had just taken the peace deal in the first place. The US and the Europeans sold them a false bill of goods, by the way. The Europeans, you know, I don't wanna let them off the hook here. All they want, all they want right now is to keep this war going because they need the spigot and to basically keep their domestic political crises off to the side. They want the US security umbrella. The longer the conflict goes on for them, it's good. Cause it keeps them right relevant in the eyes of the United States. It keeps it a live issue. And one of the worst things that could ever happen to the Europeans is if it ends. And right now there's all of these fights between the EU and the US about withdrawing the US from, you know, the eastern flank of NATO. Like they need that to keep going. So there's a lot of self interest that's happening here. At the same time I just wanna Skip ahead to C4. Just don't wanna let the US off the hook. And this is where probably my most sympathetic take from the Ukrainians comes is, can we really trust these people? I don't know, man, because here's really what happened with the plan. The original plan that we just showed you leaked. The US Confirmed that that plan was real. Some US Senators condemned that plan. Then some US Senators said that Rubio called them and denied it was the real plan. The White House then denied that denial. And Rubio came full stop circle and said, yes, it was our real plan. So there is a lot of chaos, right, that's actually currently happening behind the scenes. And we at the very least have to acknowledge that for the Ukrainians, because they're dealing with such a capricious and chaotic administration, this is the fate of their country. And, you know, it is a bitter pill to swallow. So I understand it. And they need to get their shit together if they actually want anything to happen. Because I'm personally tired of all this back. Zelensky, Kong, then they berate him. Zelenskyy comes now we're friends. Zelenskyy comes along with all of these EU ministers and we have the whole Putin summit and shit doesn't happen. And then we're all, we're gonna sanction Russia, actually. So everything is all over the place. And for all the Ukrainians who are crying right now, you guys have all been here before with Trump. He could change his mind literally at any moment. So don't be too assured that any of this is all that serious.
- [79:00]
Krystal Ball
So there you go. Yeah, no, that's true. I mean, the other part is like the, you know, I mean, the, the cash grab, disaster capitalism aspect of it is obviously also disgusting. You know, and that's, that is one of the areas where they're at odds with the Europeans too, in terms of how they would use these Russian frozen assets. You know, what they propose in the, the Trump deal is basically like, you know, some portion of it will be used for reconstruction and other portion is going to go into a joint investment vehicle with Russia. And even the portion of the Russian allocation assets that are being used for Ukrainian reconstruction are going to be done so led by, Directed by the U.S. so I mean, listen, we know how this administration operates. It's going to be, you know, a massive enrichment scheme for whether it's Kushner or Trump's, you know, other Trump family members, Witkoff, his family members, other allies, whatever. Like, we can all see how this is going to go. Which is utterly disgusting. Right, let's not, let's not put that to the side. One other aspect of this saga that you alluded to, it's just important to understand the political dynamics here too is obviously Zelensky has pushed off any sort of elections while the war was going on, saying, hey, we're in a state of emergency, state of war, we can't have elections. We've just got to, you know, continue in the direction that we are. He is embroiled. Ukraine has long been a corrupt state. Zelensky won initially on a promise to root out corruption. So this has been a deep concern for the Ukrainian people. People, there is a massive scandal with regard to basically their like Atomic Energy Agency, you know, goes right into Zelensky's innermost circle, does not directly implicate him, but raises a whole lot of questions about what is going on here. So the other piece is if the war ends, then you're going to have elections and you're going to have somewhat of a reckoning around, you know, the, the corruption scandals that have come out increasingly during this war. So, so that is another piece of the backdrop here of the calculus from Zelensky himself.
- [80:57]
Saagar Enjeti
You're exactly right. There's been huge political scandals. In fact, Tucker Carlson just tweeted out this morning the Wall Street Journal is sitting on a major corruption story for one of Ukraine's closest political negotiators and that they won't run it cuz they don't want to sabotage the deal. I don't know if he's right. We'll see what the Journal says, but just wouldn't surprise me is all. Ah, greetings from my bath festive friends. The holidays are overwhelming, but I'm tackling this season with PayPal and making the most of my money. Getting 5% cash back when I pay in 4. No fees, no interest. I used it to get this portable spa with jets. Now the bubbles can cling to my sculpted but pruny body. Make the most of your money this holiday with PayPal. Save the offer in the app ends 12:31 see paypal.com promo terms points can be redeemed for cash and more paying for subject to terms and approval. PayPal Inc. And MLS 910457.
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