11/3/25: Kash Defends Private Jet Use, Israel Explodes Over Prisoner Abuse, GOP Civil War Erupts

Summary

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Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar

Episode: 11/3/25 — Kash Defends Private Jet Use, Israel Explodes Over Prisoner Abuse, GOP Civil War Erupts
Date: November 3, 2025
Hosts: Krystal Ball & Saagar Enjeti

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Episode Overview

This episode of Breaking Points delivers a fierce, unfiltered critique of current events shaking the U.S. political and international landscape. Krystal Ball and Saagar Enjeti dissect recent scandals involving FBI Director Kash Patel’s misconduct, a major controversy over prisoner abuse in Israel and the societal fallout, and the eruption of a civil war within the GOP over Israel and the influence of voices like Tucker Carlson and Nick Fuentes. The episode is characterized by direct, biting analysis and emphasizes the moral and political crises at play, both at home and abroad.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

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1. FBI Director Kash Patel: Terror Plot Claims and Private Jet Use

Timestamps: 02:09–13:00

A. Alleged Foiled Terror Plot in Michigan

• Summary

  • The FBI, led by Director Kash Patel, announced a supposed foiled Halloween “pumpkin day” terror plot involving young men in Michigan (mainly Muslim, aged 16–20).
  • The defense attorney asserts no charges have been filed and dismisses the plot as overblown: "I don't know where this hysteria and this fear mongering came from." (Saagar quoting the defense lawyer, 04:28)
  • Krystal and Saagar are deeply skeptical, flagging the FBI’s history of manufacturing terror scares and using informants: “The FBI has never been above just like inventing some shit.” (Krystal, 05:03)

• Analysis

  • Both hosts draw parallels to past FBI entrapments (e.g., Gretchen Whitmer plot, War on Terror) and suggest a political motive to “make us all scared of Muslims again” (Krystal, 06:02).
  • “There is such a thing as trial in this country and their clownish behavior…comes back to bite them in the ass in court..." (Saagar, 04:44)

• Memorable Moment

  • Krystal: “If you got them dead to rights, they're plotting a terror attack on Halloween, wouldn't you think you would have some charges ready to go?... Government being extremely cagey about any of the details..." (05:07)

B. Kash Patel’s Use of FBI Jet for Personal Reasons

• Summary

  • Kash Patel allegedly used a government jet to attend his girlfriend’s (country singer Alexis Wilkins) performance—a move that outraged many after being covered in the press, resulting in the firing of a 27-year veteran FBI official.
  • Patel issued a social media defense, praising Wilkins and attacking critics: “She is a rock solid conservative and a country music sensation who has done more for the nation than most will in 10 lifetimes.” (Saagar reading Patel’s post, 09:16)

• Analysis

  • Saagar and Krystal mock Patel’s hypocrisy, recalling his earlier outrage at similar actions by former FBI Director Christopher Wray: “Chris Wray doesn't need a government funded G5 jet to go to vacation. Maybe we ground that plane $15,000 every time it takes off.” (Saagar, quoting Patel’s 2023 stance, 10:09)
  • The hosts condemn the misuse of taxpayer funds, especially during government shutdowns, and label Patel “incompetence personified.” (Krystal, 10:54)

• Memorable Moment

  • Saagar: “If you want to see your girlfriend in Nashville… Hop Commercial, brother… it must be nice to fly private all over the country to go see your girlfriend sing.” (10:29)

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2. Israel: Prisoner Abuse, Leaks, & Societal Breakdown

Timestamps: 15:19–26:03

A. Exposure of Palestinian Prisoner Abuse by IDF

• Summary

  • Leaked video revealed sexual abuse of a Palestinian prisoner by Israeli soldiers at the Sidi Tayman prison, resulting in brief internal investigation in Israel.
  • The focus of outrage in Israel was not on the abuse, but the leak itself. The IDF’s top legal chief, Yafat Tomer Yerushalmi (the leaker), resigned and disappeared following massive backlash, including from PM Netanyahu.

• Analysis

  • Krystal highlights hypocrisy: “This isn't a scandal that these soldiers were raping Palestinians. The scandal is that the information came out and they are calling for literal lynch mobs against this woman.” (19:59)
  • Saagar compares this to Abu Ghraib: “During Abu Ghraib…people were horrified. Here…they want to protect them, I guess. The whole thing is just so crazy…” (20:30)
  • The episode denounces the broader Israeli societal and political response: “There's no liberal Zionist case anymore for this country. In my opinion, like it's dead, it's over.” (Saagar, 22:12)

• Memorable Quote

  • Krystal: “...don't kid yourself about what this government is and don't kid yourself about what the society supports at this point, because this is the reality that we're dealing with.” (25:07)

B. Political and Public Fallout

• Summary

  • Netanyahu frames the event as a massive image crisis for Israel—not as a moral or humanitarian scandal (Krystal reading Bibi’s statement, 19:03).
  • The Israeli right, including figures like Ben Gvir, openly calls for executing Palestinian prisoners and mocks the notion of accountability for abuse.

• Analysis

  • The Western media’s silence is condemned: “There's just not a word. Not one word about any of this stuff. You wouldn't even know…” (Saagar, 24:54)
  • Both hosts attack the myth of Israeli moral superiority and urge a relationship with Israel based on realpolitik, not values-based exceptionalism.

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3. GOP Civil War & The Israel Divide: Tucker Carlson, Fuentes, and Cancellation Wars

Timestamps: 28:49–65:00

A. Republican Establishment vs. MAGA Media

• Summary

  • Israel is fracturing the GOP along generational and ideological lines. The elite, pro-Israel old guard is lashing out against younger, more anti-interventionist voices—and especially Tucker Carlson and Nick Fuentes.
  • At the Republican Jewish Coalition meeting, speakers labeled Carlson as “the most dangerous anti-Semite in America,” compared him to Hitler Youth, and demanded his deplatforming (audio from Randy Fine and Mark Levin, 29:45–31:50).
  • Lindsey Graham defined “MAGA” as: “We’re killing all the right people and we’re cutting your taxes.” (Lindsey Graham, 31:24)

• Analysis

  • Saagar: “Israel has been ripping apart the coalition from the beginning, which is young people who are skeptical of war... and party elite.” (32:09)
  • The hosts connect rabid “cancellation” culture and attempts to silence critics of Israel on the right to the worst excesses of the progressive left’s cancel culture.
  • Saagar on the backlash: “Any critic of [US] support for Israel was branded antisemitic. From the beginning… the definition itself no longer means almost anything to anyone and they don’t want to hear it anymore.” (32:52)

B. Young Conservatives and the Rise of Fuentes

• Summary

  • The vacuum left by elite repression of Israel critique creates space for the likes of Nick Fuentes to become influential with young conservatives.
  • Krystal warns that Republican elites’ moral bankruptcy and abuse of antisemitism accusations have “lost any ability to tell people this is where the line is and this is what is acceptable” (38:41).
  • Both hosts strongly denounce Fuentes’s actual Nazi and Holocaust denial views, while noting that elite overreach makes him more popular and undermines better boundaries.

• Memorable Quote

  • Krystal: “You have lost any ability to tell people this is where the line is and this is what is acceptable. And I think it's a real problem because you know that Tucker, that Tucker Fuentes interview...was very patty cakes... Fuentes realizes he's got this opening...” (38:41)

C. Why Cancellation Backfires — and What’s Really Needed

• Summary

  • Both hosts argue, sometimes heatedly, that deplatforming “Nazis” might have temporary effects but will not solve the underlying societal crisis fueling hateful, extremist politics.
  • Saagar: “You can't actually cancel your way out of it. It's impossible. If we could have, it would have worked. Seriously, it absolutely would have worked.” (59:12)
  • Krystal calls for a materialist, systemic approach: “If you don't deal with [jobs, meaning, societal stake], then you are going to have ugly, hateful politics. And that's what we're seeing right now.” (57:34)

• Discussion on the “Friend-Enemy” Distinction

  • Saagar: “A lot of this is friend, enemy. That's what it mostly is about… The enemy of my enemy is my friend. That's just not always the case.” (60:58)

• Historical Parallel & Democratic Legitimacy

  • Both hosts urge that only genuine democratic legitimacy and material improvement (drawing on lessons from 1930s America) can turn back the tide of fascist and nihilist politics.
    • Saagar: “You just have to have democratic legitimacy with the people... Study your own history... see how you don't have to go down that direction.” (62:55–63:56)
    • Krystal: “You're not gonna cancel your way out of this problem.” (58:48)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

| Timestamp | Speaker | Quote/Description | |------------|---------|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 04:44 | Saagar | “There is such a thing as trial in this country and their clownish behavior…comes back to bite them in the ass in court..." | | 05:03 | Krystal | “The FBI has never been above just like inventing some shit.” | | 10:09 | Saagar | “Chris Wray doesn't need a government funded G5 jet to go to vacation. Maybe we ground that plane $15,000 every time...” | | 19:59 | Krystal | “This isn't a scandal that these soldiers were raping Palestinians. The scandal is that the information came out...” | | 22:12 | Saagar | “There's no liberal Zionist case anymore for this country. In my opinion, like it's dead, it's over.” | | 25:07 | Krystal | "...don't kid yourself about what this government is and don't kid yourself about what the society supports at this point…" | | 31:24 | Lindsey Graham | “We’re killing all the right people and we’re cutting your taxes.” | | 32:52 | Saagar | “Any critic of [US] support for Israel was branded antisemitic. …the definition itself no longer means almost anything…” | | 38:41 | Krystal | “You have lost any ability to tell people this is where the line is and this is what is acceptable…” | | 57:34 | Krystal | “If you don't deal with that, then you are going to have ugly, hateful politics. And that's what we're seeing right now.” | | 59:12 | Saagar | “You can't actually cancel your way out of it. It's impossible. If we could have, it would have worked.” | | 62:55 | Saagar | “You just have to have democratic legitimacy with the people. That's true…” |

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Opening: FBI & Michigan Terror “Plot” — 02:09–07:00
• Kash Patel’s Private Jet Scandal & Hypocrisy — 06:50–12:38
• Israel: Prisoner Abuse, Leak Fallout, Societal Response — 15:19–26:08
• GOP Civil War: Republican Jewish Coalition Event Audio — 29:45–31:50
• Analysis: Tucker Carlson, Fuentes, and MAGA Media Divide — 32:09–38:41
• Debate: Is Cancel Culture Effective? — 54:12–59:40
• Societal Roots of Extremism & Historical Parallels — 62:55–65:00

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Episode Takeaways

This episode offers a scathing view of how elite misconduct and establishment hypocrisy fuel public cynicism and dangerous undercurrents on both the right and left. Through sharp, sometimes darkly comic banter, Krystal and Saagar challenge listeners to look beyond manufactured outrage, to recognize the importance of real accountability, and to see that neither censorship nor moral grandstanding will solve the deeper crises—only genuine reform and material improvement will.

The tone is relentless, direct, and often biting, but underpinned by an earnest plea for clarity, honesty, and real solutions in American politics and foreign policy.

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Transcript

[Krystal Ball]

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[Saagar Enjeti]

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[Krystal Ball]

I turned off news altogether.

[Saagar Enjeti]

I hate to say it, but I don't trust much of anything. It's the rage bait.

[Krystal Ball]

It feels like it's trying to divide people.

[Saagar Enjeti]

If we got clear facts, maybe, maybe we could calm down a little.

[Kal Penn]

NBC News brings you clear reporting. Let's meet at the Facts. Let's move forward from there. NBC News reporting for America.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Hey guys, Sager and Krystal here.

[Krystal Ball]

Independent media just played a truly massive role in this election and we are so excited about what that means for the future of this show.

[Saagar Enjeti]

This is the only place where you can find honest perspectives from the left and the right that simply does not exist and anywhere else.

[Krystal Ball]

So if that is something that's important to you, Please go to BreakingPoints.com, become a member today and you'll get access to our full shows unedited ad free and all put together for you every morning in your inbox.

[Saagar Enjeti]

We need your help to build the future of independent news media and we hope to see [e-mail] let's turn now to the FBI. There has been more beclownish behavior there from the FBI Director Kash Patel. Let's start with a fishy story right now. Everybody should keep their eyebrows up. Let's put this up here on the screen. The FBI Director Kash Patel announced the disruption of a major terror plot on Hallows Eve. And he said that the FBI, through the heroic action had stopped this upcoming case of a plotted attack on Halloween. However, the defense lawyer for the suspect is now disputing the allegations that his 20 year old client and four other young suspects were planning to carry this out at all. So announcing the arrest, Patel said more information would be coming soon. However, FBI and Michigan authorities have now offered, quote, few details about the. Spokespersons for the state, national, FBI and the U.S. attorney are not responding to any messages. The investigation involved discussion in an online chat room involving at least some of the suspects taken into custody. They spoke to the AP on condition of anonymity. The group allegedly discussed carrying out an attack around Halloween, referring to pumpkin day. And the other person briefed on the investigation confirmed there had been a, quote, pumpkin reference. However, the lawyer who represents one of the men from Dearborn who was detained Saturday said federal authorities have given him not many details about the investigation. Investigation. He concluded that no terror event was planned. He said he doesn't even expect any charges to be filed. Quote, I don't know where this hysteria and this fear mongering came from. He described an all male group of US citizen gamers who they said range in age from 16 to 20. Young men on forums that they should not have been on or things of nature. Then we'll have to wait and see. But I don't believe there's anything about illegal about the activity that they were doing. All of this actually just comes down to the professionalism of the FBI, obviously. Look, any defense lawyer is gonna say his client's innocent, so who knows, let's wait and see whether the charges were filed. But the point remains that the FBI announced that the terror plot had allegedly been disrupted without offering many details. There was no criminal case and lawyers immediately were saying, hey, by coming out and making these claims, if they don't hold up, this can then be used by the defense in court to combat them. And so it's like, well, hold on, were you just trying to get a headline? Were you just trying to maybe, you know, curry some political favor, let's say with the President. That's where it's not that you should believe the defense lawyer, it's that you should look at the fact that no charges filed, there's no indictment yet, there's no, nothing really in terms of the investigation. We're dealing with some chat room gamers which, look, I'll save my gaming commentary, but you know, the point remains, there is such A thing as, you know, trial in this country and their clownish behavior from the Tyler Robinson case to now this one shows that in many cases their lack of professionalism will eventually come back to bite them in the ass in court as it has multiple times now.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah, Trump administration. Well, and also the FBI has never been above just like inventing some shit.

[Saagar Enjeti]

And like, you know, Gretchen Whitmer.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah, this is. Yeah, going back to the war on terror before that, but in the modern era, the war on terror stuff. And this has some of the hallmarks of, you know, one of those invented plots you have. Like you said, the biggest red flag is no charges filed. Okay. If you got them dead to row, they're plotting a terror attack on Halloween, wouldn't you think you would have some charges ready to go? Okay, that's number one. Number two, government being extremely cagey about any of the details, won't tell you what it was they were planning. Any of you know, any of the specifics of what was going on here. Defense lawyer obviously is. I mean, listen, defense lawyer's always gonna say their client was innocent, but this guy was going particularly hard in the paint of like this is absolute and total bullshit. There was nothing illegal going on here. We will be vindicated, etce. So you've got all of that. And Max Blumenthal also flagged in the CNN reporting, they mentioned that there was like an FBI agent in the chat from earlier.

[Saagar Enjeti]

That's a given.

[Krystal Ball]

Which is a given. I mean, and that's one of the things they would do during the war on terror era, which apparently is back full force. Cuz these were apparently appear to be young Muslim men in and around Dearborn, Michigan. So there's a political angle here too of, you know, they're very set on painting all, you know, making us all scared of Muslims again in this. And there's a whole effort going on among a number of individuals to like denaturalize anyone who is Muslim and wasn't originally born in this country, including, you know, Jen Kruger being threatened by Katie Miller on Piers Morgan. But in any case, you know, there's a political incentive again to create a hysteria around potential terror plots. And so I would be deeply suspicious of the details of this supposed foiled Halloween terror plot.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Oh, 100%. And who is this man that we are looking at, Mr. Patel? Who is this gentleman? Does he spend his private time. Let's go ahead and put this third element up here, shall we? So what do we have here? The FBI has now fired a top official amid KASH Patel's outrage over reports of agency jet use. So let me just read some of the details. A top FBI official with 27 years standing has now been fired by the Bureau from its director after he became enraged by press stories revealing he had used a government jet to travel to see his girlfriend sing the national anthem at a wrestling match. Stephen Palmer, who had worked at the bureau since 98, was hired as the head of FBI's Critical Incident Response Group, which is responsible for handling major security threats as well as overseeing the agency's fleet of jets. The third head of the unit to be dismissed by Patel since the Trump administration. Bloomberg Law, which broke the story, said three unnamed sources had exploited astonishment at the sacking, given that Patel's flight schedules were fully public and trackable on websites like FlightAware. A day after her performance, Patel himself reposted photos showing him together with his girlfriend, country singer Alexis Wilkins, on his Twitter account. And according to Bloomberg, Patel became furious after stories were published about the event and his use of the FBI jet to go on a date with Wilkins. So Patel fires the individual in charge, I guess, of the agency fleet of jets and also puts out this statement from his personal account. Let's just go ahead and read some of this, shall we? Proud of the work of this FBI. We're taking violent criminals off the streets, blah blah blah. Let me be clear. We will not be distracted by baseless rumors or the noise from uninformed Internet anarchists and the fake news. I have always said, criticize me all you want, but going after the people doing great work, my personal life or those around me is a total disgrace. The disgustingly baseless attacks against Alexis, a true patriot and the woman I am proud to call my partner in life are beyond pathetic. She is a rock solid conservative and a country music sensation who has done more for the nation than Most will in 10 lifetimes. Now again, you know, I'm not familiar with Ms. Wilkins or her country music. I will Note she is 26 years old and he's, you know, in his 40s and I guess that's the way he's Talking about his 26 year old girlfriend who's a country music singer. I mean, it's nice to see him ride for his woman. Certainly if she's your partner in life, you should probably put a ring on it there, Mr. Patel. But you know, there is is just something a little grotesque about defending your use of a private jet which costs tens of thousands of dollars. Flying it at the government expense, presumably. Or maybe if you are Reimbursing. You should at least say that. We don't know the full details, but yeah, that's where we're at is Kash Patel is now posting about how his girlfriend is done. His 26 year old country music girlfriend has done more for this nation than Most will in 10 lifetimes. Again, not an attack on Ms. Wilkins, but I wouldn't say that about any country music singer, including the ones who are enormously successful.

[Krystal Ball]

Well, at least has he been consistent on the issue of government jet use at taxpayer funds.

[Saagar Enjeti]

So what did he say in 2023 about Christopher Wray and him using the government G5 to go on vacation? Let's take a listen. And I'm not saying take all their funding. I'm not the defund everything guy. I'm just saying Chris Wray doesn't need a government funded G5 jet to go to vacation. Maybe we ground that plane 15,000 every time it takes off. I agree.

[Krystal Ball]

Interesting.

[Saagar Enjeti]

I absolutely agree. If you want to see a girlfriend in. Where was it? Nashville or something like that. Okay, Hop Commercial, brother. There's six flights a day from DCA to Nashville. It's pretty cheap. You can go sit back there and coach if you want to. Guess it's not enough. You know, it must be nice to fly private all over the world or all over the country to go see your girlfriend sing. Definitely. It's a luxury indeed. That should of course be befitted to all of our, well, law enforcement.

[Krystal Ball]

This is at a time when the government is shut down. Yeah. When you have many, you know, hundreds of thousands of government workers who are continuing to work, many of them and not get paid. When you have food stamp benefits being cut off and you are flying around at taxpayer expense to go watch a girlfriend sing the national anthem. This man also, I mean, he's just like in confidence personified, you know, I mean, his handling of everything is a joke. Everything he claimed that he stood for before he came into this office is a complete and total joke. He's out there, you know, was writing books about how he had run the FBI and of course was a leading proponent of released the Epstein files, blah, blah, blah. And we've seen how that has gone. The handling of the Tyler Robinson Charlie Kirk's murder has been pathetic. And so in a sense, he's become a kind of a unifying figure. Because I do feel like there is a cross partisan level of contempt for this man, who he is, and the way that he has performed his duties here as well.

[Saagar Enjeti]

I was telling you, the Valhalla thing is a meme. Like, the whole people who aren't even political know Valhalla. I mean, it's not funny. Like, it's. It's crazy that he would actually say that at a national public press conference. And, like, that's a sketch across the country right now. Even people, again, who aren't even into politics can make the Valhalla joke. And everybody knows what they're talking about. A lot of people went for as.

[Krystal Ball]

Cash Patel kind of breakthrough.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yeah. And, you know, it's funny. Somebody texted me. They're like, why did you put cash with a dollar sign in our headline the other day? Did you all notice the. The pin that he was wearing? It said Cash with the dollar sign. Because of him. Because he was doing this crypto thing.

[Krystal Ball]

We're just giving him the moniker.

[Saagar Enjeti]

I'm using his own moniker. Okay. All right. That's where the cash.

[Krystal Ball]

What a clown.

[Saagar Enjeti]

The cash thing comes from. Yeah. It's literally a joke. So congratulations to Cash and to Alexis Wilkins.

[Krystal Ball]

I turned off news altogether. I hate to say it, but I.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Don'T trust much of anything. It's the rage bait.

[Krystal Ball]

If you feels like it's trying to divide people, we got clear facts.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Maybe we could calm down a little.

[Kal Penn]

NBC News brings you clear reporting. Let's meet at the Facts. Let's move forward from there. NBC News reporting for America.

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[Saagar Enjeti]

Here we go.

[Kal Penn]

Hey, I'm Kalpen, and on my new podcast, Here We Go Again, we'll take today's trends and headlines and ask, why does history keep repeating itself? You may know me as the second hottest actor from the Harold and Kumar movies, but I'm also an author, a White House staffer, and as of like 15 seconds ago, a podcast host. Along the way, I've made some friends who are experts in science, politics and pop culture. And each week one of them will be joining me to answer my burning questions, like, are we heading towards another financial crash? Like in 08, is non monogamy back in style? And how come there's never a gate ready for your flight when it lands, like two minutes early? We've got guests like Pete Buttigieg, Stacey Abrams, Lilly Singh, and Bill Nye. When you start weaponizing outer space, things.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Can potentially go really wrong.

[Kal Penn]

Look, the world can seem pretty scary right now, because it is. But my goal here is for you to listen and feel a little better about the future. Listen and subscribe to Here We Go Again with Kal Penn on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Krystal Ball]

Let's get to Israel, our great ally. Let me give you some of the backstory here. For you guys who don't recall, we can put these images up on the screen. Horrific video leaked a while back showing the abuse, including sexual abuse, of this Palestinian hostage. You can see the way that the IDF there, and this was in this notorious Sidi Tayman prison facility. And so once this comes out and they go to actually arrest these men who were involved in this abuse and this rape, what you saw there was a riot broke out, a right to rape riot broke out in Israel, including some politicians from the governing coalition and the ruling party who were involved in this, who were not upset about the abuse. No, of course they weren't upset about that. They were upset that there might be any sort of charges and accountability, even some like, sort of bogus sham investigation, which is what it has totally turned out to be. They were horrified that there would be any recriminations against anyone that was involved with the literal sexual abuse of a Palestinian prisoner that they were holding there. By the way, this was not a one off. This was not a one off. We've seen numerous reports from international organizations, testimony from people who have come out of this facility in particular, but others as well. We've seen New York Times reporting about the systematic rape and sexual abuse of Palestinians being held by the idf. So what happened here apparently is, you know, if you want to avoid getting the ICC involved as a country, you have to show that you are taking seriously the allegations against your own people, any sort of, like, war crime allegations against your own people. So Israel will occasionally do these, like, sham investigations, effectively to try to keep their image of, oh, no, we're the, you know, we're democracy in the Middle East. We, anything that goes wrong, we have accountability, et cetera, et cetera. So this was so bad that the video was leaked and they did this sham investigation, by the way, all of these guys continue to be free, et cetera. Okay, so what has happened since then? Let's put D3 up on the screen next to give you the backstory here. So it has been revealed who it was, this IDF legal chief who ended up leaking the video. So first she, her name is Military Advocate General Yafat Tomer Yerushalmi. So first she resigned, then she actually disappears. And they found what appeared to be a potential suicide note in her car because there is this mass backlash in Israeli society, not again over the abuse of these prisoners, but of the fact that she leaked this video so that the world could see what was actually going on. So the headline here, IDF legal Chief avoided probes into the Gaza War crime, citing right wing backlash, sources say, amid resignation. So just so you understand who this lady is, this is not some, you know, lefty liberal person. This is someone who avoided in significant instances, including the strike on the World Central Kitchen workers, including on multiple hospital strikes that killed civilians, including reporters. This is someone who buried all of that and refused to investigate all of those things. Why? Because she was worried about right wing backlash. So now that we have the information that she was the one who leaked this video, they are calling for her head. And I mean literally all the way up to Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu himself. Let's go ahead and show D2. So Bibi is saying here that the rape of the Israeli soldiers, the Palestinian prisoners in Siri Tayman, caused enormous damage to the image of the State of Israel and the Israeli army and our soldiers. This may be, he says, the most difficult propaganda attack that the State of Israel has faced since its establishment. I don't recall an incident centered with this degree of force. This requires an independent investigation, not affiliated with any party, and I expect such an investigation to be conducted. And then at bottom, you see the image of the rapist. This is them publishing a photo, boasting while masked after a press conference so as not to be identified and prosecuted judicially abroad. And the most important thing this person says is that in all of Israel, no one is talking about the heinousness of the rape, but rather the anger is focused only on the leak of the videos that expose the crime. And this is what really bothers them. I mean, Just what a twisted. What a twisted society. That there's no ups. I mean, listen, we criticize this country all the time. You know, when the Abu Ghraib photos came out, that was a genuine scandal. Right? People were horrified by it. Okay, now you have this come out. This isn't a scandal that these soldiers were raping Palestinians. The scandal is that the information came out and they are calling for literal lynch mobs against this woman. And she's going to be charged and has already had to resign, is threatening suicide because she's so terrified of what they're gonna do to her societally completely insane story.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Most Americans are good people. During Abu Ghraib, even Iraq invade, Iraq, war chest beating warrior. People were all still horrified by the video. And there were bipartisan outrage over what happened. And I mean, I remember even the names of some of those interrogators. Those were household names here in the United States over there. Yeah, not so much because they want to protect them, I guess. The whole thing is just so crazy and it's just so funny from Netanyahu to be like, this is one of the worst things that's ever happened in the history of the state of Israel. The leak of the video, again, to.

[Krystal Ball]

Be clear, which she possibly know, it's not like she put it out because she was really like concerned about, you know, what was going on there. She was worried about the ICC getting involved. That's what all of this was meant to forestall. Like the video was out there, the abuse was undeniable. And so this was an attempt to be able to. Okay, well, we'll do our investigation. Don't worry. We care about the. We totally care about these things. And so that was the course that she ultimately took. And then as I said before, you know, the reporting from Haaretz was that she passed on a bunch of investigations and her whole thing was to bury things, to cover them up, to delay, to push them off. Even things like, you guys remember all of the tumult over the world, Central kitchen strike, it was huge news. Jose Andres involved. You know, there was. The Biden administration was concerned, like. Cause people knew this guy. And Israelis promised there would be this investigation. This is the lady that buried all of that. So that's who we're talking about. And even that is not enough because she didn't just completely cover up and bury every single instance of Israeli war crimes.

[Saagar Enjeti]

It's literally like a mob that's running the show over there. It's crazy. It's just so crazy. And at the Very same time there's like this whole fight over here about pro Israel support and it's a western country and it's nor. They're just like us, they're actually better than us. They have a better military, they're safer, they conduct things in a more humane and humanitarian way. Again, I don't know how you can look at this. There's only one case for Israel now at this point which is like the uber hawk Zionist case where they're like, yeah, they do whatever they wanna do. It's like a right wing authoritarian ish type government and they back us up, so we should back them up. It's like the same argument you would make on Saudi Arabia. I can accept that. I don't believe it. I think it's wrong and I think that costs us much more. There's no liberal Zionist case anymore for this country. In my opinion, like it's dead, it's over. Not just in terms of the war, but also in terms of the way that their entire society is structured and clearly the democratic out. That's another thing. How can we just deny it at this point? The Israeli people very clearly had no issue with the war in Gaza. They just like really didn't care. We need to accept that that's just, that's just reality.

[Krystal Ball]

They had differences opinion on how to handle the hostages.

[Saagar Enjeti]

That's it. Yeah, like that's basically it. So be it. I mean again, I can kind of understand how they got there just given their history and their media environment. I don't agree with it, but whatever. We need to accept that that is genuinely the democratic direction of the Israeli government. But now here you see a literal breakdown in the thing that they sell to us about why they're so different than the rest of the people in the Middle East. I've said this now for several months. I think they're all pretty much exactly the same. They're the same. And so don't be coming to me talking about barbarism and all that stuff elsewhere.

[Krystal Ball]

We're the children of the light. I'm just like, okay, listen, I'm of the right are the ones having right to grape riots.

[Saagar Enjeti]

I would happily just deal with you in the same way that we deal with all other Middle Eastern countries. What's in it for us and what's not? And right now the fact that an entire axis of US politics is literally determined to protect this country from its own mistakes and to give them shelter at the icc, the international corps to take over their problems in Gaza, to spend Hundreds of billions of dollars over the last several decades to justify and contort our own moral image and political rhetoric to justify the bombing, the deaths of tens of thousands of women and children for purposes that again, remain completely mysterious in terms of any beneficial to us. Not to mention, you know, the horrific scenes that we all see. There's no words for this. And the only word is to ignore it, which is what the entire Western press is doing about this. There's just not a word.

[Krystal Ball]

No, okay.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Not one word about any of this stuff. You wouldn't even know. Ask your average Zio supporter, do you know about this rape case in America? They won't know anything.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Literally, there's more controversy in Israel than there is here.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah.

[Saagar Enjeti]

It's crazy.

[Krystal Ball]

True. And to your point about the liberal Zionist case being dead, which I think is reflected in the Democratic Party base and how much they have just completely. They're like, this is disgusting. It's a genocide. We don't want anything to do with this country. Here's an instance. Put D5 up on the screen here. This is Ben Kvir and you can see him pointing at these hostages, Palestinian hostages, who are there, handcuffed, zip tied on the floor, face down. And what he says here is, do you see them? This is how they are now. But one thing remains to be done and that is to execute them. Those are our great allies, these great western style democracy in the Middle East. So, you know, don't kid yourself about what this government is and don't kid yourself about what the society supports at this point, because this is the reality that we're dealing with.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yeah, I don't even know. No words for it. Seriously. Absolutely none. Whatever.

[Krystal Ball]

I turned off news altogether. I hate to say it, but I.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Don'T trust much of anything. It's the rage bait.

[Krystal Ball]

It feels like it's trapped trying to divide people.

[Saagar Enjeti]

We got clear facts. Maybe we could calm down a little.

[Kal Penn]

NBC News brings you clear reporting. Let's meet at the Facts. Let's move forward from there. NBC News, reporting for America.

[iHeart Radio Announcer]

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[Saagar Enjeti]

Here we go.

[Kal Penn]

Hey, I'm Kalpen and on my new podcast, Here We Go Again, we'll take today's trends and and ask, why does history keep repeating itself? You may know me as the second hottest actor from the Harold and Kumar movies, but I'm also an author, a White House staffer, and as of like 15 seconds ago, a podcast host. Along the way, I've made some friends who are experts in science, politics and pop culture. And each week one of them will be joining me to answer my burning questions, like are we heading towards another financial crash? Like in 08, is non monogamy back in style? And how come there's never a gate ready for your flight when it lands like two minutes early? We've got guests like Pete Buttigieg, Stacey Abrams, Lilly Singh and Bill Nye. When you start weaponizing outer space, things.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Can potentially go really wrong.

[Kal Penn]

Look, the world can seem pretty scary right now because it is. But my goal here is for you to listen and feel a little better about the future. Listen and subscribe to Here We Go Again with Kal Penn on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Speaking of Israel, it is now destroying the Republican Party much in the same way that it absolutely destroyed the Democratic Party. And it's exposing a schism between the party elites, the people in power, the old guard and the younger generation, which is increasingly going in two dramatically different directions. And there is a full blown campaign right now amongst Republican Party elites to cancel Tucker Carlson and really also to just silence any critics of Israel. Let's get specifically to the recent Republican Jewish Coalition meeting here in Washington where multiple speakers took the podium to denounce Tucker Carlson to justify support for Israel. Let's take a listen. First to Randy Fine. Today, Tucker Carlson is the most dangerous anti Semite in America. Multiple speakers have talked about the rise of a antisemitism on the right. But it is not enough to speak in platitudes or generalities about the fight we must call evil by its name. It's chosen to take it off, take on the mantle of leader of a Modern day Hitler Youth to broadcast and feature those who celebrate the Nazis, those who call for the extermination of Israel, to defend Hamas, to even criticize President Trump for stopping Iran's nuclear ambitions. Yes. How dare he criticize President Trump for.

[Krystal Ball]

Anyway, they had Tucker is not MAGA signs like printed up.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Right? Not an op whatsoever.

[Krystal Ball]

Right.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Clearly not designed at Kinkos in a room of 150 people. That by the way, did not just wasn't just the self described Hebrew hammer of Republican Randy Fine. We also had Mark Levin, a very vocal supporter of Israel, openly supporting cancellation deplatforming. Let's take a listen. Hitler admires, Stalin admires. Jew haters, American haters, Churchill haters. You're damn right we're going to cancel them and de platform them. It's called the market system. They don't have a lifetime job like a bureaucrat who we're going to protect. And if they're your friend, there's something wrong with you. No, Hitler admirer, Holocaust denier, platformer should be anybody's friend. As a matter of fact, you don't get to wrap your psychotic mental, unhinged Nazi clan jihadist bullshit around American patriotism. You don't get to claim your MAGA in America first when you're lining up with the Marxists and the Islamists and Hamas and the terrorists. That's not America first. That's sick. We're gonna cancel, we're gonna deplatform them. And then finally, my personal favorite pitch from Lindsey Graham about what MAGA really is all about. Take a listen. In his own words. I feel good about the Republican Party. I feel good about where we're going as a nation. It we're killing all the right people and we're cutting your taxes. So to those who worry about these stupid interviews and far off places, don't worry, the Republican Party has figured it.

[Kal Penn]

Out when it comes to Israel.

[Saagar Enjeti]

We understand that Israel is a friend of America to the bitter end. We are cutting your taxes and we are killing all the right people. That is now Lindsey Graham pitch for what MAGA is all about. And all of this is in the context the fallout of the Tucker Carlson Nick Fuentes interview which has caused like massive consternation here in Washington. Let's go and put this up here from Heritage foundation, which previously put out a video which you guys covered on Friday in defense of Tucker Carlson, but also saying, I disagree with Nick Fuentes. Here's like a long tortured statement from Kevin Roberts, the president of Heritage, saying, yesterday I said I Abhorred views by Nick Fuentes and a long thing about racism and antisemitism are not relics of the past. Actually, antisemitism and all of that is a huge problem. Let me just zoom out and kind of give my general take about what's happening here. Yeah, this is the same thing that happened in the Democratic Party. Israel has been ripping apart the coalition from the beginning, which is young people who are skeptical of war, who are also deeply concerned about the financial system and the traditional three legged stool party elite. Trump was a band aid during the campaign, which could somehow convince an RFK Tulsi supporter to vote for him. In addition to the Republican Jewish coalition and others who say this is the most pro Israel president of all time, why did that fall apart? Because like Biden, you're not just in the campaign anymore. You have power. When you have power, you make discrete choices. You made a discrete choice to support Israel in the vacuum of that. What the Republican Party elites did is throughout the entire Biden administration and then the early Trump administration, any critic of the government of Israel and of US support for Israel was branded antisemitic. From the beginning. There was a concerted effort to make sure any critique of Donald Trump on the state of Israel was entirely anti Semitic. So what happened with a significant portion of young podcast curious young dudes who were pro Trump and who were anti war. Where do you think that they started to seek out some of their Israel and Trump criticism? That's kind of a secondary part. And this is a sickness that is currently in MAGA media. Nobody is ever able, who is, quote unquote, pro Trump or who is not a leftist to just say basic critiques about the Trump administration. And so there is also a huge appetite for people who are critical of Trump, not even just say from the right, but who are not leftists. That's what a lot of people who voted for Trump and who disagree with what they say wanna hear. That is the vacuum through which Mr. Fuentes has been able to resuscitate much of his image. Let's all remember where Nick Fuentes was before October 20th 7th. He was working on the Kanye campaign, doing screeds about, you know, whatever, black IQ or whatever on his show. Okay? That's where he was. And yes, he was canceled to within an inch of his life. He was off Twitter. Elon unbanned him. There's a perfect circumstance that led to October 7th and the re rise, let's say on Twitter that. But though this is the, this is what drives me crazy. About the whole thing. They act like it came out of a vacuum. It is a creation of the unending cancellation rhetoric from the Zionist right that has now pervaded all of politics for the last two years, which has pushed people to the point where any criticism of the state of Israel is conflated with antisemitism. The definition itself no longer means almost anything to anyone and they don't want to hear it anymore. And then finally this kind of gets to the whole rhetoric thing. I saw this, really, from Dave Smith. How can I be lectured about racial politics and divisive language after watching these people cheer on the deaths of starving children over the last two. You're gonna lecture me about morality and about race politics when you support an explicitly racially aligned state in the Middle east and you procreate your whole identity around this? You have no moral authority. Authority over me to lecture me about how my country should act in relation to this other. That is the vacuum through which this has all been created. And there's so many. I know, so many young people. They're not leftists. And yes, even with Israel, they're not, you know, genocide posters or keffiyeh wearers at protests. They're just disgusted this is being done both in our name and that we're paying for it and of the obsession of foreign politicians while they have an inability to succeed financially in this country.

[Kal Penn]

Country.

[Saagar Enjeti]

That's the entire thing that is about it. So that's the schism. Charlie Kirk was doing his best, by the way, to try to maintain this. And his loss, really, what has erupted. You know, I think Withers shows how frankly valuable he was to the state of Israel, I think, in his ability to try and to square the circle. But this conflict was inevitable because of the situation that they created. And so, I don't know, I just. I can't stand, like so many of the. This Randy Fine. I mean, think about the things. Randy Fine. Randy Fine said he wants to nuke Gaza. You're going to lecture me about morality?

[Krystal Ball]

He called for them all to be starved.

[Saagar Enjeti]

He called for them to be starved. And you're going to lecture me about Hitlerism and about racism and morality police. It's like, fuck you. You know, and that is, you know, and this is a long way before. Cause this is what I wanna make sure. I'm not saying I'm no fan of Mr. Fuente, who probably thinks I should be denaturalized and dep. And that my interracial marriage is horrible. Right. But I can also sociologically understand why so many people would find that type of rhetoric very convincing and entertaining, frankly. Who else? I mean, me, a few others who can criticize Trump. There's not very many of us out there who can say it legitimately, and there's a massive appetite for it. Look at Theo, look at Andrew Schultz, look at Tim Dillon. You know, all of these guys who were Trump curious and are now very critical. There's a massive audience for it. And then finally, people are blaming Fuentes, Tucker, and others. That is not why kids in MAGA hats at Ole Miss are showing up to TPUSA events asking about Israel. It's not. You can convince yourself all day long that that's the case. You could literally deplatform Fuentes and that he would never have a platform ever again. Those kids would still be showing up there. You have a reality problem in this entire thing, and this is an unswearable circle right now in the current. In current politics. It just does not. It's not capable, frankly, of being squared with the current Republican Party elites which are in power.

[Krystal Ball]

I mean, I think the cat is out of the bag in terms of your assertion that these young guys would still be showing up and asking questions about Israel and whatever. But I also think a lot of those guys are Fuentes fans, and they are Grovers. And he is incredibly. He is incredibly influential among young Republicans and young Republican men specifically. I think the point that you're making is that effectively Republican elites have lost the moral standing to gatekeep in any way. So even when it comes to a literal Nazi, which Nick Fuentes is. I mean, he is a Holocaust denier, he does love Hitler. Like, you know, backing Kanye as he's. I love Hitler, all that. Right. He is those things. And yet, because, number one, one, the elites of the party have supported an outright genocide that's happening in our timelines. Number two, because they've tried to conflate any criticism whatsoever of our foreign policy vis a vis Israel as antisemitism, they have lost any moral standing to gatekeep and say, this is the bounds of acceptable discourse within the Republican Party. I think that's a problem because I actually do think that you should keep Nazis out of your coalition. I actually do think that that should be aligned, that you can draw. And obviously, they have completely failed through their abuse of the term antisemitism to maintain any sort of moral legitimacy. And not just through the use of the term, but also through their own actions. I mean, you point to Randy, fine. You can look at what this administration is doing, you have lost any ability to tell people this is where the line is and this is what is acceptable. And I think it's a real problem because you know that Tucker, that Tucker Fuentes interview, first of all, Tucker, before he interviewed Nick was going very hard in the paint saying he's a gay loser who lives in his mom's basement. Then when they're face to face, very patty cakes, you know, just explain to me in your own words, not bringing up any of the specific things that he said for him to have to grapple with. And Fuentes realizes he's got this opening because guess what, if your narrative of the world is like, the Jews are the problem for everything, you know, the, the fact that the state of Israel and their defenders have gone done their damnedest to conflate every Jew in the world with their genocidal actions is doing half of the propaganda battle for Nick Fuentes. They are doing that so he could say, I agree, I agree that Israel is equivalent to the Jews and just look at what they're doing and look at how our politicians are acting. So through our complicity in this genocide and through our pushing of the propaganda that yes, every Jew has to be conflated with the horrors that are being done in their name. That also helped to solidify the opening for Nick Fuentes. And here's the other dynamic in politics, like Tucker Wolf. You know Tucker, especially when he was on Fox, I don't know how much he does it now, but especially when he was on Fox, he talked all about the great replacement theory, saying replacement, replacement, replace, blah, blah, blah, blah. He does enough to give himself plausible deniability. Cuz the grander part of that conspiracy is that it is Jews leading the great replacement theory to replace white.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Susan, he did not say it.

[Krystal Ball]

No, Sagar, let me finish my point. He doesn't say that part right. He uses, you know, it keeps it on the like, oh, it's a political project of the elites, maybe he says, like the global elites. But he maintains this plausible deniability. Guess what? The person who actually comes in and says the fricking thing, and that's Nick Fuentes, who says it's the Jews who are coming in to replace the white people. The person who actually says the thing out loud, they are going to be the ones who win that rhetorical debate. This is what Trump sees on in 2015, 2016 with his rise. The things that Fox News would dog whistle and hint at. He would come out and say, so that's the dynamic that's going on right now with Tucker and Fuentes and Candace. And that's why I think Hanania and his assertion that this is the direction of the Republican Party, I think he's right. Because what, you think Mark Levin's gonna be able to pull this back? You feel like, who's gonna be the person that's gonna say, no, this is too far. We don't wanna be an actual Nazi party.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Let's talk about why. I think that Henania is right in a sense. I think what he's right in a sense is that the Republican Party establishment doesn't have legitimacy for a significant portion of young people. Not everyone are a bunch of leftists. Okay? Many of us have like very. I mean, even the framing, frankly of about immigration that you just gave, like there is a legitimate case to be made about immigration apportionment and the census. That's not a grand Jewish conspiracy. It's reality. In terms of the way that the demographic change of our population happened under the Biden administration, we've had endless arguments about that. But there's a non racial case, which I believe most people who voted for Trump on immigration actually do believe whenever they wanted control of our border. And particularly to want to know that and think that that's an insane. Now, however, what has happened is that under the Trump administration with their flagrant basically conflation of Jewish identity with the state of Israel, which by the way, Trump says himself all the time, oh, these Jews don't even support me, even though I'm so pro Israel. Pro what?

[Krystal Ball]

Maybe there's more to that.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Israel supporters, but Israel supporters do it themselves. John Pod Harrits, who is from Nepo baby commentary writer literally tweeted that Trump can see, say Shylock all he wants because he bombed Iran. So Trump can say the word Shylock, which according to him is a anti Jewish slur, because he did a foreign policy action which is beneficial to the state of Israel. So you're the ones who created this reality. So to the extent then that the whole Republican Party is going in this direction again, why is that? Because young people, particularly a lot of young men, are deeply angry at the same state of the country. They feel as if they cannot advance. The reason that they cannot advance is because of a bipartisan establishment elite. They also do not feel that they will ever be able to make enough money to support themselves and get married, even though they want to. A lot of these guys desperately want to get married. Many of them, by the way, let's even look at the Entire phenomenon of spending all your time online getting into racial politics, that is loser behavior. And it is downstream of gaming, pornography, marijuana, spending all your time by yourself. Why do you think I rage against all this stuff? Because it creates these maladjusted antisocial freaks who by the way, in all of society, when you have underemployed angry young men, what direction does politics go? This is not to excuse it. This is simply to show you where things are headed. This is why I rail against degenerate libertine society, because I understand the consequences of it. And we've seen it dramatically throughout history. And then finally to like the conservative point about why did Kevin Roberts. Why is TP USA having these issues? Why? Because it's a bottom up phenomenon. I can't tell you from my criticism of the state of Israel and more, I get more private support than probably on any other issue. I agree with you. I agree. But they can't say it because their job depend on it. That's not an anti Jewish conspiracy. That's reality is that even if you are an econ staffer at a conservative think tank, if you have a dissonance view of Israel, you're dead. Okay? You're not getting a job. You're not gonna get a job at the Trump administration. You're never gonna work again in this town. That's a reality they created. That's not an anti Semitic point. That's just simply again a statement of fact. And that is slowly bubbling up. And then let's take Tucker on top of all of this. Tucker, who is the most, in my opinion, influential. I mean, look, actually just go look at the download charts. Number one conservative podcast in the entire country. Far outpaces everyone else in the conversation with, with Fuentes. I personally would have liked to see him more critical. I'll say it. And Tucker is a great friend and I support him. I liked being on a show and I hope to be back on again. I wish he had been a little bit more critical of him in terms of. Because I know he can do it. Look at the Ted Cruz stuff, right? He's a master interview, phenomenally, if he wants to. The thing that comes down to it is that the friend, enemy distinction is becoming much more difficult because you have to also consider the way that they have tried to destroy his own life. They literally with Tucker. I mean there's recently this Daily Mail piece where they said Tucker Carlson, quote, needs to be neutralized. Okay? That's the type of rhetoric that is now coming from the more Zionist Right wing, they're calling him Hitler Youth. They're saying like the most dangerous anti Semite in the country. Country. Genuinely like an all out campaign to destroy his business, to destroy his personal life, to destroy anybody who's associated with him. That mentally I'm saying because I suffer from this too. For me, man, it is like whenever they want me to cancel somebody else, especially for the whole Israel thing, I have a lot of difficulty with it. I really do because of the level of vitriol that I have gotten. I can't even criticize the Bari Weiss deal without being bombarded with, you're a Jew hater. Right? As if I care that Bari Weiss is Jewish. That it has anything to do with. No, it's only about Israel. I don't care about any of that. And so I'm saying from my own personal experience, the level of personal vitriol that you get as somebody who is in any way, you know, more on the right wing end of the spectrum critical of Israel, I think it might be 10 times worse than from the Democratic side. Like the level of money, the amount of personality, just nastiness that comes away times me by a hundred. And that's where Tucker Carlson is currently sitting. That's, you know, this is why it is just like these people deserve everything that's coming to them. They created this reality. And then there's also politics on top of this, which is somebody who tries to run on the mantle of Trump again in 2028 and who especially wants to win back these young people. I think this is a non strong, I really do. Because the Israel question, if you cannot answer independently and honestly, you can still be pro Israel, but you have to be able to admit certain things. Like that kid said, ethnic cleansing. If you can't say those types of words and you just little Washington platitudes, that is a message that you are either controlled part of the system and we can't have that anymore when we're young, not when my health insurance is going up by 20%. And I'm 99% sure that if you get elected and you talk that way way, that you're gonna be shipping bombs there and there's not a dollar coming my way or anybody else. That's why it's not just about Israel, it's about control. The Democrats are figuring this out right now and I think the Republicans, you know, they're in for a rude awakening. And if you don't give an inch, then yes, Fuentes will be more popular than ever. It's not an inevitability. That's the irony of it. I just said pre October 7th, you're working for Kanye. You're doing nothing. All right? And it. But the reality of Israel, criticism being slowly pushed out. How else do you think Myron Gaines and Nick Fuentes and Dan Bilzerian, I mean, Bilzerian, nobody even heard of the guy for five, six years. Before that he was selling vapes with girls in bikinis. Now he's, you know, literally doing nothing, playing poker, I guess whatever it is he does. Now all of a sudden, Israel, right, comes out of nowhere. This was the back. The niche that they were able to fill because of the reality that they created. And then for many people who are not racist, anti Semitic or anything, for many of us, I mean, the personal vitriol smear campaign and as you and I know, privately, public or private campaign as well, in terms of what has been used against us, it's one of those where I talked about this in my interview with Tucker. You have to fight every day not to become the thing that they want you to be. They want you to hate Jews. They want you to fulfill their conspiracy. They want me to give a diatribe about global Jewry or any of that, and I'm not going to do it. You know, I don't believe it. I think it's ridiculous. But they want us to become the mirror image of what they are.

[Krystal Ball]

Well, cause it proves their cause, it proves their point. And this point Ryan's made, which I think is true and also is something that has been true since the foundation of the state of Israel. The state of Israel and the government benefits from a rise in genuine anti Semitism because then their propaganda, we have to have a safe space for Jews. Like that has more credibility. If you see Myron Gaines, when the Nazi posting or I guess internal group chat of the quote, unquote young Republicans came out, he was like, we're done with this. Yeah, we like Hitler. Now we're gonna say it. That's who we're talking about. I mean, just so you guys know, we're not just casually throwing around the tantrum anti Semitism. These are people who genuinely are like, Hitler was based. We like Hitler. We support him. Talk about the global jewelry, like, you know, really like go full out with the great replacement theory is led by Jews. I mean, all in the most anti Semitic shit you could possibly imagine. That's what we're talking about here. And so, yeah, I mean, on the Democratic side, you've had effectively the Israelis have Kind of like given up on Democrats. Democrats, you know, the base of the Democratic Party is 90% against Israel at this point. 80% say it's a genocide. Like, there's a huge disconnect between the leadership, the elite electeds of the Democratic Party and the base that is being sorted out right now as we speak. And the writing is on the wall.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yeah.

[Krystal Ball]

The part of the reason why in the Republican side it's so incredibly fierce and contested right now is, number one, because Trump's in power, so he's the one who's actually, like, doing the same stuff. But number two, because you do still have a majority of Republicans who are very Israel supportive. You know, if you are over the age of, let's say, 40 in the Republican Party, you still have that very, like, they're our ally sort of Cold War mentality. We're with them no matter what. You buy the propaganda. You probably haven't really thought about it all that much. Right. It just. Yes, we support Israel, period. End of story. And certainly the, you know, the elites in the Republican Party are almost all lockstep on board with Israel no matter what. And like, when the Democratic Party, a lot of the donors are very committed to Israel, and that's their view as well. So that's why this is, I think, so, like, hot and fiercely contested within the Republican Party right now is because you do have, even among the base, you have a genuine divide where still the majority is very pro Israel. It's very generational, but the majority is still very pro Israel. So that reckoning is gonna take a long time to come.

[Saagar Enjeti]

And it is all generational. And I mean, let's also just consider they literally support Israel, many of these people, for religious reasons. And then they get mad when Tucker was like, I think it's heresy to purport your dispensationalist view of the Bible to say that the political state of Israel is described there. And that's why we must support them, as he should with Ted Cruz. Why is that an anti Semitic point? Why is that even an anti Christian talking point? You're not allowed, Tucker is not allowed to debate Christian questions of theology. That's the real. I mean, this is what they're creating. They're doing all of the, you know, the cancel culture de platforming discourse from Mark Levin and others. They are no different, you know, than any of the woke left was on the issue of race at the height of 2020. And that's also, I think that's another thing that really gets a lot of us is if you don't religiously care about Israel, you can't help but look at the same tactics by so many of the pro Israel supporters to the same woke leftists on the issue of race who we despise.

[Krystal Ball]

And here we're not talking about trying to cancel Nick Fuentes, we're talking about trying to cancel like you know, Dave Smith.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Yes.

[Krystal Ball]

You know, people who just have like a legitimate critique of Israel or you know, yourself or myself or whatever where it's like you can't even say these things because. Because I think there's a case for canceling Nick Fuente. I think there's a case for like it actually did work better when he was de platformed, he had a lot less power. Now the moment is different, et cetera. But you know, I do think that there are lines that should be appropriate to draw in society and maybe being an overt Nazi is one that we could talk about.

[Saagar Enjeti]

It's difficult.

[Krystal Ball]

But with what your point is, is that they drew the line at you literally cannot, you cannot protest Israel. You can't write an op ed about Israel, Israel, you can't talk about it at all. If you do, you're Hamas, you know, everybody's Hamas. Everything that is negative about Israel is Hamas, et cetera. And if you're going to try to draw the line there, then yeah, people are going to say, and again, this is not defending because again we're talking earlier about personal responsibility, like these people are responsible for their stupid hateful Nazi views. But if you're going to try to draw the line there, yeah, people are going to say your anti Semitic smear doesn't work. And by the way, you're like actually low key convincing me of the most extreme position, the actual hateful position on this issue.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Absolutely. And look, the cancellation thing, like we talked about Charlie Kirk, I mean everybody does believe in a little bit of cancel culture. And if we're all being honest, the question I also think comes back to political effectiveness. And I can't just help but just point to the pre October 7th consensus of where things were. That is the reality is different. And that's again, I just want to bring it back to Dave who recently had a debate with somebody and they were like, oh, Nick Fuentes said that? And he was just like again, what is more damaging to society, to norms is edgy trolling and in some cases genuine racism and overt pro nazism or cheering on and politically supporting the slaughter of tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of people and Using our money and perverting our political system. On that question, and it's pretty obvious to me which one that is. This is not a defense. Again, these people hate my guts. They think I'm some, you know, they'll call me a jeet. They'll call me, you know, whatever my child they'll say is a mongrel. Okay, so fuck them all, right? I have no, you know, political ground or any of that to be made whenever it comes.

[Krystal Ball]

But, you know, the question comes back to murdering babies.

[Saagar Enjeti]

Bingo.

[Krystal Ball]

Right, so.

[Saagar Enjeti]

And it also works. And unlike them, you know what? I think we still have to live together. We all need to live together in this country. And you know, to borrow an AOC type leftist talking point, in many respects, if you hold those views, I feel bad for you. I pity you. I genuinely think most of the time you are that way because you got dealt a very shit hand in life. And yes, you have absolute and personal agency for the horrific things that you believe. And yes, on a personal level, if you ever said that to my face, I would probably beat the shit out of you if I could. But had a major sociological view, I can and do understand how people with views like that, first of all should be overtly condemned on a personal level. And we should do everything we possibly.

[Krystal Ball]

Can to prevent it.

[Saagar Enjeti]

And I can, I can understand how with our libertine, disgusting, degenerate society of gambling and all the other things, that we will create 10 times more of people who hold those types of views. Which is why I go to.

[Krystal Ball]

Well, my analysis leads to a different layer which is that you have to deal with the material. Like people have to feel like they have a stake in society, like they're gonna be able to succeed. Like there's a path, both just not just success, but some sort of meaning, some sort of purpose. Right? Because if you don't have that, then it's gonna, you know, then, yeah, you're gonna spend your life, you know, traveling, whatever, using whatever opiate your society has available to you at this moment. And the one thing our society is fantastic at generating right at this moment is high octane opiates to all of us to get addicted to and colonize our minds and distract us and preoccupy us so we can get our minds off the fact for a lot of individuals that life looks very bleak. If you don't deal with that, then you are going to have ugly, hateful politics. And that's what we're seeing right now. And so especially, you know, if you have young People who come from middle class upbringings who, you know, were sold the. You go to college and do the thing and take on all the debt and you're gonna be able to get a good job. And then, oh, whoops, we created some AI and there are no jobs anymore. Like, how do you think this is going to go? So you have to, on the one hand, abhorrent, certainly the influencers, the Nick Fuentes of the world who actually have power, you have to abhor that. And I do think that I am more open to some level of gatekeeping when it comes to. And cancellation when it comes to overt Nazis. But I also understand you're not gonna cancel your way out of this problem. You're not gonna cancel your way out of this.

[Saagar Enjeti]

When people say cancellation, I'm like, listen, you know what? You literally here have an Indian guy trying to make the case here for why that's not going to solve your issue. Why are we here? Like you, you can't ignore that we have to live in this heterogeneous, multicultural society which was created. We have a lot of differing views about how to get there, but we have to live together. You can't actually cancel your way out of it. It's impossible. If we could have, it would have worked. Seriously, it absolutely would have worked.

[Krystal Ball]

I will, I will maintain, though, that when Fuentes was canceled, he had a lot less power. And he's a. And I do think he looks, he's like, funny, he's talented, he has a hold on, he has power. I mean, that's part of why you see so many right now on the right, like having him on and having a little Patty case. They're afraid because he not only has a significant audience, but he has a lot of clout and sway with that audience. And so if you're in the camp that has been Israel critical, you likely share a lot of fans with Nick Fuentes and you're a little nervous. I mean, these are the incentives and people can talk themselves into a lot of things, but your incentive is, let me be a little kid gloves here. Let me not piss off my own fan base. Let me, you know, let me not look like I'm some like, loser, woke, scold, cuck, cringe, whatever. And so, you know, that's part of what's going on here too. And Fuentes realizes he has this moment and he's trying to, trying to moderate. You know, with Tucker, he was, oh, no, I don't hate anybody, blah, blah, blah. It's like, which is why you have to go back. Okay, well, why did you say this about you? Why did you say this about black people? Why did you say they should. They're all criminals, they should all be locked up? Right. So he's trying to mainstream himself right now. And it is. It's working.

[Saagar Enjeti]

It's working to the extent of the influencer point. You're definitely correct.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah.

[Saagar Enjeti]

But I actually really think a lot of this is friend, enemy. I think that's what it mostly is about. But, you know, I mean, this is something you all have to. To be careful of, is you all fall. You know, a lot of people fall for the enemy of my enemy is my friend. That's just not always the case. Okay. Like, sometimes you have to have a lot of personal agency to make sure you don't go down that hole. And that's why, you know, on a personal level, I really detest a lot of these people, and they've said some horrible, horrible things about me. But I can see it literally, like me personally, but also, you know, anybody who is Indian American. But the point I always come back to is I'm like, okay, this is really bad. And we need to make sure that this doesn't become like a bigger thing. Now. How do we make sure that that's become a bigger thing? Well, we take a look at why anybody would potentially even be influenced by this in the first place. Because you can't cancel your way out of this. Especially now. The, you know, it's out in the open, Right. The gatekeeping, it doesn't work anymore. We literally live in the age of the printing press, where anybody, anybody with a voice and a megaphone can get a voice at any time. Yes, perhaps there's some downsides to that, but there's a lot of benefits to it as well. And to the whole original point around free speech, and you're talking about material conditions, I don't think that it's all that ultimately difficult to make sure that things don't go down this dark direction. You just have to have democratic legitimacy with the people. That's true. That is why there is so much despondency when we think back to the early days of fascism in the 1930s and with Mussolini, you have to understand that the Weimar Republic was doing okay prior to the Great Depression, and it was a multifactorial decision ultimately to pursue the path of Nazism and of fascism. In Italy, most of it came back to the failure of the Treaty of Versailles. So a lack of faith in the political elite, the stab in the Back theory that game's legitimacy, a lack of faith in the economic institutions, and a fundamental belief that this previous way of doing business was not a way to solve our problems and make it so that we can have any sort of legitimate say in our affairs, which is why people went down that road. You can go and read Richard Evans, the Richard Evans series on the Third Reich. It's one of the best series of books I've ever read. And when you read it, you will not justify it, but you will understand. And I think that that's what more people need to understand. I'm not. I don't, by the way. I don't think we're anywhere close to that. But I'm only. I'm only saying, though, that to demographically try to understand and save your own country, you have to make sure that you don't create the same way that they tried to at that time of. Oh, well, you know, they tried to solve it through violence or as you. You said cancellation. Right. Outlawing literal political party. They believed that that was a way that you could pursue your own ends. It wasn't true, ultimately. So you have to learn from a lot of those things.

[Krystal Ball]

Finally, and we have a successful example here.

[Saagar Enjeti]

I was gonna say I have that Freedom from Fear book right behind me. And the reason I do is because that book is about how FDR saved America from a communist or a fascism or a fascist revolution. We were going down that road. I really believe that in the 30s, we had an actual choice. Or if FDR had died in 1934, like in some sort of alternate history, things would have gone in a very bad direction. But that's a real example, by the way, of how, you know, you can solve a lot of. And there were serious similar problems at that time. Why you think anti Semitism problem now? Go back to the 1930s. You think racism is a problem now? Listen, man, like, you have no idea what you're talking about. About from the rise of the KKK and all that at that time, not to mention, go take a look at any Confederate statue on any battlefield. It'll all say, built in 1933. All right? It's not an accident. For why all of that came to be. So, yes, study your own history and examples and see how you don't have to go down that direction. Do I have faith that any of our political leaders will go down that or take us out of this? No, I actually don't.

[Krystal Ball]

These are the choices that are on, if anything.

[Saagar Enjeti]

I don't know. Maybe this is like a live narration of our own downtown fall. But there you go. Dark, dark sometimes. Okay, we'll see you later. Ah, greetings from my bath festive friends. The holidays are overwhelming, but I'm tackling this season with PayPal and making the most of my money getting 5% cash back when I pay in 4.

[Kal Penn]

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[Saagar Enjeti]

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[Kal Penn]

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[Saagar Enjeti]

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[Kal Penn]

This episode is brought to you by PBS, home of Ken Burns. His newest film, the American Revolution, reveals untold stories of people, some familiar, many forgotten, who risked everything to change the course of history. It's the story of a war that was bloody, complex and profoundly consequential. Ken Burns and his co directors, Sarah Botstein and David Schmidt, shine a light on how this historic fight for independence lit the spark for freedom. Freedom that still burns today. The American Revolution premieres Sunday, November 16th at 8, 7 Central on PBS and the PBS app. Don't miss it.

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This is an iHeart podcast.