Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar – January 14, 2026

Episode: Elizabeth Warren Slams Abundance Bros, Thomas Massie On Iran, Venezuela And Epstein

Episode Overview

In this episode, hosts Krystal Ball and Ryan Grim (with Saagar on break) welcome Senator Elizabeth Warren and Representative Thomas Massie. The episode covers Senator Warren’s strong critique of the so-called “Abundance Movement” among Democrats and her push for robust economic reforms, including recent direct negotiations with Donald Trump. In the second half, Massie provides an insider’s take on Congress’s handling of war powers (Iran and Venezuela), his work with Ro Khanna to force the release of the Epstein files, and the ongoing internal battles within his own party and reelection campaign.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Elizabeth Warren Takes on the “Abundance Bros” and Oligarch Influence (02:16–19:38)

- Warren’s Critique of “Abundance” Politics:

• Senator Warren slams wealthy Democratic donors, highlighting Reid Hoffman’s outsized influence and the watering down of anti-corporate initiatives.
• She calls on Democrats to choose an agenda that centers working families rather than one palatable to billionaires.

“Democratic Party has a choice to make. We can follow an agenda that is comfortable for a handful of billionaires or... an agenda that actually works for tens of millions of working people. And for me, you want to win elections, then by golly... instead of choosing the billionaires, how about if we choose real people?”
— Elizabeth Warren (06:27)

- Kamala Harris and Lina Khan:

• Warren recounts how donors pressured Harris to fire FTC Chair Lina Khan, undermining efforts to lower costs.
• She credits Khan's record on click-to-cancel, non-compete bans, and antitrust actions.

- Trump and Cost of Living

• Warren describes Trump's simple messaging—“I will lower costs for American families on day one”—as politically effective, while Democrats got bogged down by donor pressure.

- Direct Engagement with Trump (Credit Card Cap & Housing)

• Warren describes a phone call from Trump after her speech, pushing him to cap credit card rates and unlock a bipartisan housing supply bill.
• Skeptical of Trump’s “talk,” she demands real action.

“It’s a good conversation, but talk is cheap. I’ll be persuaded when we see real action, because that’s what families deserve.”
— Elizabeth Warren (11:37)

- Building Democratic Infrastructure and Party Identity

• Warren discusses her donations to 23 state Democratic parties, emphasizing early organizing and party identity rooted in past achievements (Social Security, Medicare) rather than mere opposition.

- “Good” vs “Bad” Abundance (Policy Efficiency or Billionaire Trojan Horse)

• Warren distinguishes between genuine pro-efficiency reforms and “abundance” rhetoric that shields corporate interests.

“My concern with abundance is, first of all, they’re not acknowledging the corporate part of this nearly enough... folks like Reid Hoffman use abundance as now a shield. So he wants to say... let those data centers go forward. Excuse me, has anyone paid attention to what’s happening on utility prices?"
— Elizabeth Warren (18:11)

- Notable Quote on the Need for Government That Works for All:

“We can make this country work for working families, but that’s the job the Democrats have got to take on.”
— Elizabeth Warren (15:51)

2. Thomas Massie on Iran, War Powers, Venezuela, and Epstein Files (22:31–60:06)

- GOP and Iran: Neocon Resurgence

• Massie criticizes “America First” Republicans for supporting escalation in Iran, contrary to anti-interventionist campaign rhetoric.

“The neocons have hijacked his foreign policy here... It’s not even taken a few years to get there.”
— Thomas Massie (23:28)

• Emphasizes need for Congress to vote on any military action, not just executive decisions.

- Venezuela, War Powers, and Executive Overreach

• Explains the legal gymnastics justifying interventions, and his own War Powers resolutions.
• Points out that executive branch resists even seeking Congressional approval.

- The Epstein Files: Push for Transparency

• Massie (with Ro Khanna) forced DOJ to release Epstein files—most still held back or excessively redacted, violating the law.

“They’re disobeying the law, because I think they’re trying to test and see if there’s any way it can be enforced... I would like to remind them, anybody at the DOJ who’s watching this show right now, this isn’t a subpoena, it’s a law.”
— Thomas Massie (31:04)

• Willingness to use contempt and even impeachment if the DOJ continues to defy.

- Epstein, Israel, and Billionaire Influence

• Discussion of released files showing Epstein’s links to Israeli officials (Ehud Barak), possible intelligence involvement, and the overlap with billionaire adversaries bankrolling campaigns against Massie.

“I’m a coincident theorist now, not a conspiracy theorist. I’m observing coincidences... One of the three billionaires funding the race against me is in Epstein’s black book.”
— Thomas Massie (33:38)

- Massie’s Internal GOP Battles and Philosophical Stance

• Responds to MAGA primary challenger attacks that he’s a “distraction.”
• Frames his 9% of dissenting votes as principled (against wars, for transparency).
• Tells stories about his relationship with Trump—at one point a “first rate defender” later called a “third rate grandstander.”

- War, Corruption, and Donor Payoffs

• Links Venezuela intervention to donor Paul Singer’s business interests (Citgo purchase), noting the shifting public justifications (fentanyl, oil, regime change).

“Give them credit for committing candor... The president is committing it. He’s admitting this was an attack, not an arrest, and he’s saying, we’re taking their oil and I’ll take as much of it as I want and I’ll sell it for any price I want. And he will. Eventually, he’s going to make his big donors whole.”
— Thomas Massie (50:32)

- Clinton Subpoena Contempt & Hyperpartisan “Theater”

• Massie supports holding Clintons in contempt if they defy Congress, but derides the spectacle as “theater,” urging true transparency: just release the Epstein files.

“If Clinton is guilty, it’ll be in the draft indictments that the DOJ possesses and haven’t released... If they want to get at the Clintons, just release the files. We don’t even really need him to show up to know that he’s guilty.”
— Thomas Massie (55:30)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Warren on Democrats’ Core Choice: “Democratic Party has a choice to make. We can follow an agenda that is comfortable for a handful of billionaires or... an agenda that actually works for tens of millions of working people.” (06:27)
• On Trump’s Influence: “If Donald Trump wants something done, the one action that Republicans in the House and the Senate know how to take is to bow down. That’s it.” — Warren (09:39)
• Massie on Party Loyalty: “I vote with my party 91% of the time and in the 9% I don’t, they’re taking up for pedophiles, starting a new war or bankrupting the country. None of those things are MAGA.” (40:35)
• On Being the “Craziest Son of a Bitch”: “I realized at that point they had not been voting for the libertarian or the constitutionalist, they were voting for the craziest son of a bitch in the race.” — Massie (46:40)
• On Venezuela’s Oil and Donor Payoffs: “Give them credit for committing candor... president is committing it. He’s admitting this was an attack, not an arrest, and he’s saying, we’re taking their oil and I’ll take as much of it as I want and I’ll sell it for any price I want.” (50:32)
• On Clinton and Epstein Files: “Just release the files. We don’t even really need him [Clinton] to show up to know that he’s guilty.” — Massie (56:55)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Elizabeth Warren Segment:

  • 02:16 — Warren’s critique of “abundance” and billionaire donor influence
  • 07:15 — Trump’s “lowering costs” rhetoric vs. Democratic muddle
  • 08:09 — Warren’s phone call with Trump about credit card rates
  • 10:09 — Push for housing supply bill
  • 16:03 — Defining good vs. bad “abundance” reforms

• Thomas Massie Segment:

  • 22:31 — Critique of Iran policy and Congressional war powers
  • 26:42 — DOJ’s foot-dragging on the Epstein files, legal fight for transparency
  • 33:27 — Epsteingate, billionaires, and campaign finance
  • 39:39 — Responding to intra-party attacks, relationship with Trump
  • 46:08 — Massie’s philosophy on GOP, MAGA, and who voters are choosing
  • 49:11 — Venezuela intervention tied to big donor payoffs (Singer, Citgo)
  • 55:30 — Clinton subpoena, contempt, and the need for actual transparency

Final Thoughts & Tone

• The episode has a candid, combative tone, with Warren and Massie both pulling few punches.
• Warren is focused, policy-driven, with a sense of urgency about party direction and economic justice.
• Massie offers a libertarian critique of Congressional and executive overreach, and is deeply skeptical of both party establishments, big donors, and government secrecy.

For listeners seeking political accountability, anti-corruption advocacy, and the inside scoop on DC intraparty battles, this episode provides an unvarnished, agenda-challenging perspective from both left (Warren) and right (Massie).