11/6/25: Pelosi Retires, SCOTUS To Kill Trump Tariffs, Morning Joe Vs ADL, Summer Lee On Zohran Victory

Summary

Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar – November 6, 2025

Main Theme

This episode analyzes a politically historic week, including Nancy Pelosi's retirement, the Supreme Court's openness to overturning Trump-era tariffs, the escalating feud between Morning Joe and the ADL over Zohran Mamdani's victory in New York, and a deep-dive interview with Congresswoman Summer Lee on the future of progressive politics. The hosts (Krystal Ball and Ryan Grim, standing in for Saagar Enjeti) dissect power transitions, establishment anxieties, and grassroots victories, holding power to account with their signature cross-ideological analysis.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Nancy Pelosi Announces Retirement

[02:16–10:00]

Summary:
The hosts break the news of Nancy Pelosi's official retirement and evaluate her legacy as House Speaker and power broker. They relay Pelosi’s farewell video and discuss what her departure signals for the future of Democratic Party leadership and San Francisco politics.

• Pelosi's Announcement: Pelosi expresses gratitude to San Franciscans and bids farewell to Congress.
• Legacy Analysis:
  • Master fundraiser and tactician; controlled the Democratic caucus with a tight grip.
  • Instrumental in passing Obamacare and facing down Trump during the border wall standoff.
  • Critiqued for fostering gerontocracy in Congress and enabling an insider stock trading culture.
  • Described as a “nightmare” for both Democratic radicals and Republicans.
• Succession Battle:
  • Key contenders: Shoikat Chakrabarty (AOC’s former chief of staff, progressive) and Scott Wiener (establishment, pro-Israel).
  • Rumors of Pelosi’s daughter Christine entering the race raise questions about family political dynasties.
  • The race to replace Pelosi seen as a microcosm of centrist vs. progressive tensions in the party.

Notable Quote:
“People who are 80 years old should move on and get the fuck out. …Not pulling a Feinstein here. You didn’t die out. I wish that bar was not that low.”
— Ryan Grim, [04:04]

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2. Supreme Court Casts Doubt on Trump Tariffs

[12:50–22:29]

Summary:
The Supreme Court appears skeptical of the legality of Trump's sweeping tariffs, raising constitutional questions about presidential authority and possible trillion-dollar refunds to businesses.

• Hearing Recap:
  • Conservative and liberal justices alike challenge the Trump administration’s claims of near-unlimited executive tariff power.
  • Justice Gorsuch questions the statutory and constitutional basis for such authority.
• Potential Fallout:
  • If tariffs are struck down, the US may face massive liabilities and refund obligations.
  • The debate exposes Congress’s abdication—they let Trump lead on trade to avoid tough votes.
  • Krystal highlights business opposition to tariffs and the court’s pro-business leanings.

Notable Quotes:
“Congress has not fought back. They don't want to have to take this vote. Cuz most of them actually oppose the tariff program. But they don't wanna get crosswise with Trump.”
— Krystal Ball, [21:11]

“It also…is a dagger to the heart of Trump economics, which I think a lot of Americans want to see. A dagger to the heart of Trump.”
— Krystal Ball, [17:44]

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3. Morning Joe vs. the ADL on Zohran Mamdani

[25:02–39:54]

Summary:
A sharp critique of the Anti-Defamation League’s campaign to surveil incoming NYC Mayor Zohran Mamdani, catalyzed by his outspoken pro-Palestinian positions and rejection of establishment pressures. Even centrist figures like Joe Scarborough on Morning Joe question the ADL’s approach, signaling a rare establishment split.

• ADL's Moves:
  • Announced a tip-line and a monitoring effort for all Mamdani administration policies—ostensibly to “protect Jewish New Yorkers.”
• Pushback:
  • Krystal and Ryan, with clips from Morning Joe, argue the ADL’s stance is not only overreaching but skirts into bigotry and McCarthy-era tactics.
  • Highlight double standards in how Muslim politicians are treated compared to white or Jewish counterparts.
• Pro-Israel Establishment Backlash:
  • Major Democratic figures and media refuse to fully embrace Mamdani's victory; false smears tied to “jihadist” or “Sharia law” rhetoric run rampant—even from mainstream Dems like Gillibrand and Cuomo.
• Public Response:
  • Voters see through Islamophobic tropes: “The [smears] didn’t really work together… People see the guy and are like, ‘You guys are out of your minds. This is not credible.’” — Krystal Ball, [33:00]

Memorable Moment:
“Incredible clip there. He tries to pull the whole, oh my God, this person was firebombed. And Joe does not accept the emotional blackmail… It is deeply disgusting and especially at a time, I mean, look there's a whole thing happening on the right about whether Nick Fuentes should be part of the coalition… But God forbid you have someone who is anti-Zionist and outspoken about it. And also, by the way, Muslim, total meltdown, massive project to track everything, blah, blah, blah.”
— Krystal Ball, [28:08]

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4. The Summer Lee Interview: Progressive Lessons from Zohran Mamdani’s Victory and the National Mood

[43:19–78:35]

Summary:
Congresswoman Summer Lee joins in studio for an extensive interview, dissecting the elections’ meaning, the backlash against unapologetic progressives, Israel’s role in Democratic infighting, and the future for left-wing politics after landmark victories.

Key Topics:

• Voter Rebellion Against Establishment:
  • Voters, especially progressives, are “done” with letting party elites dictate their choices.
  • The establishment’s inability to control outcomes frustrates them more than policy differences.
• Weaponizing Anti-Muslim, Pro-Israel Narratives:
  • Lee recounts how AIPAC and others spend millions to defeat Black progressives and those who voice even modest sympathy for the Palestinian cause.
  • She notes both direct smears (“jihadist” accusations) and behind-the-scenes pressure to conform.
• Generational and Structural Resistance:
  • Besides explicit prejudices, the “muscle memory” of Democratic politicians to cater to moneyed interests is a major barrier to aligning with their own base.
• Organizing & Messaging Lessons:
  • Lee praises Mamdani’s relentless focus on affordability and constituent needs, crediting grassroots and direct voter engagement for his and other progressive upsets.
  • Urges Dems to abandon political triangulation for clear, people-first stances.
• Institutional Criticism:
  • Both hosts and Lee stress that the only way to overcome the influence of big money and lobbying is for more politicians to risk comfort or incumbency and choose courage.
• Leadership & Future Fights:
  • Lee is open to primary challenges against incumbents whose voters demand change: “If our people…want something different, you’re not going to see me standing in the way.”
  • On Democratic leadership: “Leadership to the country right now looks like marching away. It looks like being in the trenches. …People want [leaders] to be with us in that.”
• Shutdown Strategy:
  • Lee credits the progressive base for pressuring Dem leadership into bolder action in Congress, especially regarding the government shutdown (though she acknowledges the pain federal workers face).
• On Pelosi’s Retirement:
  • “Nancy Pelosi…looked at the landscape. And she said, you know what? Let’s call it here.” — Summer Lee, [78:04]

Notable Quotes:

• “I sometimes wonder if we’re doomed to take the wrong lesson. … People have been begging for some sort of just responsive representation that says, I see you, I know you.”
  — Summer Lee, [43:40]

• “AIPAC has never reached out to me….They looked at me and said, the good sis is unbought and unbossed.”
  — Summer Lee, [53:30]

• “The pathway to 218 comes through our blue areas too. … Why should black areas not get to have [representatives who reflect them]? … We get to have that too.”
  — Summer Lee, [64:14]

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Memorable Quotes & Timestamps

• “Thank you for leaving [Congress], and this blows open the San Francisco primary… are San Francisco residents going to go with the nepotism route, or are they going to be part of the sort of like Zoran Mamdani left wave reckoning?”
  — Ryan Grim, [04:23]

• “Congress has not fought back. … They don’t want to get crosswise with Trump. So as with many things, they’re just happy to say, ‘Yeah, you do it.’”
  — Krystal Ball, [21:11]

• “It’s just overt, like, Islamophobic bigotry, it honestly is higher than even what I saw after 9/11 because it’s out in the open. And it was both Democrats and Republicans.”
  — Krystal Ball, [32:27]

• “Being brave in politics is underrewarded and understated…. [Palestinian, poor, black, or immigrant people] don’t have the access to Congress people like we do.”
  — Summer Lee, [58:18–59:39]

• “Leadership to the country right now looks like marching away. It looks like being in the trenches….The real movement came from the organized, empowered electorate.”
  — Summer Lee, [74:01]

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Section Timestamps

• Pelosi Retirement & San Francisco’s Future: [02:16–10:00]
• Supreme Court Tariffs Case: [12:50–22:29]
• Morning Joe, ADL, & NYC Politics: [25:02–39:54]
• Mamdani’s Victory & Islamophobia Discourse: [39:54–43:19]
• Summer Lee Extended Interview: [43:19–78:35]
• Pelosi’s Retirement, Anti-Incumbent Sentiment: [78:02–78:34]

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Takeaways

• The Democratic Party faces a turning point, with the Pelosi retirement, urban progressive victories, and pushback against establishment Israel-Palestine orthodoxy symbolizing broader grassroots discontent.
• Lingering power structures (big money, dynasties, and gerontocracy) are directly challenged by new progressive figures.
• Islamophobia, often weaponized for political ends, is increasingly called out—even by mainstream media allies.
• The left’s new leaders refuse to cede moral clarity or populist messaging, betting that authenticity and realignment with the party’s true base can reshape American politics.

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For Listeners Who Missed the Episode

This episode offers a smartly irreverent, candid look at seismic shifts within US politics—from the fraught transfer of Democratic power to bold new voices on the left. It’s essential listening for understanding the friction lines between establishment and progressive camps, the weaponization of identity in politics, and the way seismic grassroots victories are reorienting the Democratic debate heading into 2026.

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Contributors:

• Krystal Ball (host)
• Ryan Grim (co-host, replacing Saagar Enjeti for this episode)
• Congresswoman Summer Lee (guest)

Transcript

[Summer Lee]

This is an iHeart podcast. I turned off news altogether.

[Krystal Ball]

I hate to say it, but I.

[Ryan Grim]

Don'T trust much of anything. It's the rage bait.

[Krystal Ball]

It feels like it's trying to divide people.

[Ryan Grim]

We got clear facts. Maybe we can calm down a little. NBC News brings you clear reporting. Let's meet at the Facts. Let's move forward from there. NBC News reporting for America. This is Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang from Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang. JBL Tour Pro 3 earbuds are for those who don't conform to the standard. Yeah, I mean if you want to get into some touchscreen technology, how about the smart charging case? Clear sound. These are not standard things. You're only gonna get them with the JBL Tour Pro 3, baby. And I love the sound of JBL and goes. These earbuds are packed with innovation because you can't stand out by following others. TouchSC smart charging case for one touch control, instant EQ customization, true adaptive noise canceling and the one of a kind audio transmitter which can plug and play with everything from game consoles to in flight entertainment. What more could you want? First doesn't follow grab a pair at jbl.com@lowe's this veterans Day and every day verified military members, veterans and their spouses get automatic silver status in Milo's Rewards with free standard shipping plus 10% off eligible purchases with no annual limit. It's one way we honor and give back to those who have served and still do. Learn more now@lowe's.com Military 10% discount can't be combined with another offer Exclusions Terms and conditions apply. Loyalty programs subject to terms and conditions details@lowe's.com terms subject to change hey guys, Sager and Krystal here.

[Krystal Ball]

Independent media just played a truly massive role in this election and we are so excited about what that means for the future of this show.

[Ryan Grim]

This is the only place where you can find honest perspectives from the left and the right that simply does not exist anywhere else.

[Krystal Ball]

So if that is something that's important to you, Please go to BreakingPoints.com, become a member today and you'll get access to our full shows unedited ad free and all put together for you every morning in your inbox.

[Ryan Grim]

We need your help to build the future of independent news media and we hope to see [e-mail] hey everyone. Huge update literally happened live while we were recording the show. Congresswoman Nancy Pelosi has officially, officially announced her retirement. She released a new video let's take a listen.

[Krystal Ball]

I say to my colleagues in the.

[Ryan Grim]

House all the time, no matter what.

[Krystal Ball]

Title they have bestowed upon me, speaker.

[Ryan Grim]

Leader, Whip, there has been no greater honor for me than to stand on.

[Krystal Ball]

The House floor and say, I speak.

[Ryan Grim]

For the people of San Francisco.

[Krystal Ball]

I have truly loved serving as your voice in Congress. And I've always honored the song of St. Francis. Lord, make me an instrument of thy peace, the anthem of our city. That is why I want you, my.

[Ryan Grim]

Fellow San Franciscans, to be the first.

[Krystal Ball]

To know I will not be seeking.

[Summer Lee]

Re election to Congress.

[Krystal Ball]

With a grateful heart, I look forward to my final year of service as your proud representative. As we go forward, my message to.

[Ryan Grim]

The city I love is this San Francisco, know your power. We have made history. We have made progress.

[Summer Lee]

We have always led the way and.

[Ryan Grim]

Now we must continue to do so. Wow, there it is. Seismic announcement to the days after immediately these elections for the Democrats. Obviously she stepped down. Already had Hakeem Jeffries, but obviously a titan, I think in the Democratic Party. One of the most efficient power brokers. And modern American history, especially up there at the top, long and storied career. I don't want to give too much of a positive vibe. A lot of destruction. I think along the way to the.

[Krystal Ball]

Key Museum look pretty good though.

[Ryan Grim]

You're definitely right on that one. But we're going to judge on the report card. I wouldn't say it's been all that great. She was a nightmare for Republicans, for Democrats at many times. But, you know, at the very least, I do want to give credit where it is due to people who are 80 years old should move on and get the fuck out. So, you know what?

[Krystal Ball]

Not pulling Feinstein here.

[Ryan Grim]

You didn't die out. I wish that the bar was not that low. Thank you for listening and for leaving. And this blows open the San Francisco primary there. Shoikat, who we had here on the show now, I think the guy's got a real shot. He actually could win. He's gonna be going up against. What is it? Senator Scott Weiner.

[Krystal Ball]

Who is what more he's a local politician, state senator. They're very, you know, in terms of their positioning. The Scott Wiener is very pro Israel, you know, AIPAC recipe, all that sort of stuff. So that'll be a key, you know, dividing line. Shoikat Chakrabody is AOC's former chief of staff. Very, very thoughtful guy. Ideologically kind of has the big picture and also the policy details there. Very, very big student of history as well, I think. He and Sagra could spend hours talking to each other about FDR and all. Smart dude. That smart dude. In any case, in addition, the expectation is that one of Pelosi's daughters, Christine, is likely to jump in the race as well. So that hasn't happened yet, but that was the expectation, like, from Shoikat. There's been a question for a while now whether Pelosi was going to seek reelection. Again, obviously there's a big conversation in the Democratic Party right now about gerontocracy with this incredibly elderly leadership and average age and, you know, multiple members literally dying in office. Of course, Dianne Feinstein, who Nancy Pelosi is very close with being one of those individuals. And Pelosi would have been, you know, had a front row seat to watching that decline happen. So I think that probably pushed her more towards the exits as well. You know, Shoikat's challenge, her primary challenge already was one that she was gonna have to take seriously. That could have also played a factor, played a role as well. You know, he had shared some polling with me that looked promising for him when people learned about his campaign, et cetera. So, yeah, now that's going to be a very, very interesting fight. Are San Francisco residents going to go with the nepotism route and say, okay, last name Pelosi, we're going to stick with it, or are they going to be part of the sort of like Zoran Mamdani left wave reckoning? Are they going to go with the more centrist figure of the established politician there, the state senator? That'll be a really fast.

[Ryan Grim]

It's gonna be huge test for her endorsement too, because if she does nominate or she does push her daughter and she endorses her, I don't know. I mean, look, I don't know San Francisco politics like all that well, but she was still pretty popular in her own district. She has survived multiple challenges. Her bid was always, look, I'm the power broker and I'm gonna get shit done for you. And I mean, again, like, but can.

[Krystal Ball]

You transfer that to your kid?

[Ryan Grim]

Yeah, it's always been that way. I don't know, truly. Like, I have no idea whether the voters would go along with that. I would pray, say that San Francisco has definitely not gotten better under her leadership. If you live there, I think you probably would agree. I think the case has always been. But she's fighting, you know, on a national case, to be fair. Congressional elections are not local specifically. It's not really all the stuff that factors in. So I have no idea. It's gonna, wow, gonna be a crazy race. But you know, at least the honorable thing she's leaving, she's left us with the legacy, the stock trade. You know, she single handedly, her riches with her husband, I think elevated that issue to the very top. So Nancy, thank you, thank you for you and your husband trading your way so flagrantly to make that into an issue that a lot of people could seize upon and to push some anti corruption legislation. I'm trying to think about, well, like, my God, the financial crisis.

[Krystal Ball]

Obamacare. Obamacare, she really, you know, was a key linchpin, got the Iraq war, the votes together to get Obamacare across the finish line. I mean Democrats had big majority, but they had a lot more like blue dog conservative members that they had to grapple with. So that was not no easy task. And I mean the thing that she was very effective at was first of all knowing what votes she had. Right. She was a huge fundraiser, just a juggernaut with that, which unfortunately, the way Washington is set up, that is really the key to power. She was a much better tactician than Hakeem Jeffries for sure. She relished a fight with Trump, really stared him down and the border wall funding shut down. I think she really emerged victorious from that particular fight and she was able to really sort of coerce the Democratic caucus into maintaining unity, which was not necessarily in my view, a positive thing. But from her perspective and from Democratic leadership perspective, she was certainly very, she.

[Ryan Grim]

Was the master tamer. She tamed aoc, she tamed all of the squad. I mean, you gotta give it to her. She was LBJ esque. In terms of her control. There are very few like them. There's lbj. In my lifetime, it's been Harry Reid, Nancy Pelosi. I haven't seen any greats in Congress. I mean, it's been a long time since we saw anybody great who actually could, was a creature of the institution, could get things not just done, but, you know, really had a harness on the caucus, turned herself to an integral part of the machine, became one of the pioneers of the billionaire, you know, raising money movement. There was nobody better at it.

[Krystal Ball]

She understood, she understands power. 100%, absolutely understands power.

[Ryan Grim]

Fascinating life.

[Krystal Ball]

And came from a Baltimore like machine Paul family as well. So she was sort of like raised, raised in that culture, I guess. So there you go.

[Ryan Grim]

Their breed. I guess you could say so. All right, well, good riddance. Okay, let's get to the tariffs. Attention parents and grandparents. If you're looking for A gift that's more than just a toy. Give them something that inspires confidence and adventure all year long. Give them a Guardian bike, the easiest bike to learn on, safest to ride, and the number one kids bike on the market. With USA Made Kids specific frames and patented safety technology, kids are learning to ride in just one day. No training wheels needed. It's why Guardian is America's favorite kids bike and the New York Times and Wirecutter's top pick three years in a row. This holiday season, Guardian is offering their biggest deal of the year. Over 40% in savings on all bikes, plus $100 in free accessories. Each bike arrives 99% assembled, so setup takes minutes, not hours. Whether it's their very first ride or their next big upgrade, Guardian makes every pedal feel safe, smooth, smooth and fun. Join over 500 happy families who've discovered the magic of Guardian. Visit guardianbikes.com to shop now. That's guardianbikes.com I turned off news altogether.

[Krystal Ball]

I hate to say it, but I.

[Ryan Grim]

Don'T trust much of anything. It's the rage bait.

[Krystal Ball]

It feels like it's trying to divide people.

[Ryan Grim]

We got clear facts. Maybe we could calm down a little. NBC News brings you clear reporting. Let's meet at the Facts. Let's move forward from there. NBC News reporting for America. Tis the season for identity theft. This time of year, most of us are checking off our holiday gift lists. But guess what? Identity thieves have lists too. And your personal information might be on them. Protect your identity with Lifelock. Lifelock monitors hundreds of millions of data points every second and alerts you to threats you could miss by yourself. Even if you keep an eye on your bank and credit card statements. If your identity is stolen, your own US Based restoration specialist will fix it, guaranteed or your money back. And all plans are backed by the million dollar protection package. The last thing you want to do this holiday season is face drained accounts who fraudulent loans or other financial losses from identity theft all alone. Make this season about joy, not identity theft. With Lifelock, save up to 40% your first year. Call 1-800-LIFELOCK and use promo code iheart or go to lifelock.com iheart for 40% off. Terms apply. Going now to tariffs. There was a massive Supreme Court case yesterday where Trump's tariffs actually appeared before the United States Supreme Court for their legality. The Supreme Court will rule on that imminent question. Hundreds of billions of dollars are at stake because of the amount of revenues that have flowed into the federal government's coffers. There is a potential possibility they may actually have to repay all of the tariff revenue back to those companies if they are struck down, and it increasingly looks that way. Here was Trump's immediate reaction to the possibility of them getting struck down. Let's take a listen. You're saying you're happy with what you.

[Summer Lee]

Came out of it.

[Ryan Grim]

If I didn't have tariffs, we wouldn't, we were right now the entire world would be in a depression because, you know, that wasn't a threat against us. That was a threat against the entire world. I did this for the world. I did it for the world. That's his response. Good luck arguing that before the United States Supreme Court, sir, because they are not looking so favorably on your proposal. We have some of the audio just showing some of the conservative justices expressing a lot of skepticism around this. First, let's start with Justice Gorsuch.

[Krystal Ball]

You say that we shouldn't be so concerned in the area of foreign affairs.

[Ryan Grim]

Because of the president's inherent powers.

[Krystal Ball]

That's the gist of it, as I understand it.

[Ryan Grim]

Why we should disregard both major questions and non delegation.

[Krystal Ball]

So could Congress delegate to the president.

[Ryan Grim]

The power to regulate commerce with foreign.

[Krystal Ball]

Nations as he sees fit, to lay and collect duties as he sees fit?

[Ryan Grim]

We, we don't, we don't assert that here.

[Summer Lee]

That would be a much harder case now in 1790.

[Ryan Grim]

Isn't that the logic of your, of your view, though? I don't think so because we're dealing with a statute that was a carefully crafted compromise. It does have all the limitations that I just talked about. You're saying we shouldn't look, we shouldn't be concerned with.

[Krystal Ball]

I want to explain to me how.

[Ryan Grim]

You draw the line because you say we shouldn't be concerned because this is.

[Krystal Ball]

Foreign affairs and the president has inherent authority. And so delegation off the books, more or less.

[Ryan Grim]

And again, the, the phrase that Justice.

[Summer Lee]

Jackson uses, it just does not apply.

[Krystal Ball]

At least I know.

[Ryan Grim]

But that's where you started off and.

[Krystal Ball]

Now you've retreated from that, as I understand it.

[Summer Lee]

Well, I think we would as our.

[Ryan Grim]

Frontline position, a certain stronger position. But if the court doesn't accept it.

[Summer Lee]

Then if there is a highly.

[Krystal Ball]

Can you give me a reason to accept it, though?

[Ryan Grim]

That's what I'm struggling and waiting for.

[Krystal Ball]

What's the reason to accept the notion.

[Ryan Grim]

That Congress can hand off the power to declare war to the president?

[Summer Lee]

Well, we don't contend that again.

[Krystal Ball]

Well, you do. You say it's unreviewable.

[Ryan Grim]

There's no manageable standard, nothing to be Done.

[Krystal Ball]

And now you're. I think you tell me if I'm.

[Ryan Grim]

Wrong, you've backed off that position.

[Summer Lee]

Maybe that's fair to say. Okay, all right.

[Ryan Grim]

That would be not great there for the US Solicitor General. There were a couple of other instances where Justice Kavanaugh also appeared to have some questions there. This time for the opposition. Just to give you a bit of a flat flavor on some of the arguments that are happening. Let's take a listen. Mr. Katyal referred to Common Sense several times, and I want to pick up on Justice Barrett's question, because your interpretation of the statute, as she pointed out, would allow the president to shut down all trade with every other country in the world or to impose some significant quota on imports from every other country in the world, but would not allow a 1% tariff. And that leaves, in the government's words in this brief an odd doughnut hole in the statute. Why would a rational Congress say, yeah, we're gonna give the president the power to shut down trade? So that was the argument that gets to some of the presidential powers. I just think broadly, what we're trying to show you is that while there are a couple of justices who appear to perhaps rule on Trump's side, the vast were quite, quite skeptical. Let's put the tear sheet up here on the screen from the Wall Street Journal. Supreme Court appears skeptical of Trump's tariffs. The Trump administration's lawyer faced sharp questioning, including from the conservative wing of the court. Lawyers representing the tariff challengers were pressed a little bit here about the limitations that they could impose on core powers. One of the interesting things that kind of flows from this is that they would not strike down the ability to impose tariffs. What they would strike down was this IEEPA authority that Trump to impose these tariffs. And they said, well, you can do it, but those take a lot longer, and you kind of have to show your work. You have to prove through a system that they're taking advantage of you. And the whole reason he used these is because they could go into effect immediately where those other ones require a lot more box checking and legalities to in order to go through. And they can be challenged in court. But the big question is, what about all the money? There's hundreds of billions of dollars sitting in the US treasury bank account. Who gets that money? Nobody even knows the answer to that question. But that would be devastating to the Trump theory, not only in terms of executive power, but of tariffs, because that's their whole cope is, well, where are you gonna use this money to offset the shutdown, whatever, to pay these farmers. Well, what if these farmers just took a hit and they get no money from the government? That's gonna be. That's brutal.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah, well, it also, I mean, it's a dagger to the heart of like Trump economics, which I think a lot of Americans want to see. A dagger to the heart of Trump. In a certain sense, it may kind of save them because the tariffs are some of the most unpopular thing that Trump has done in this second term. So I think there's a number of things going on here with the Supreme Court. Number one, a lot of businesses don't like the tariffs and the court, even the conservative justices, are very pro business. So this was one that we always thought had a chance of success even when Trump was riding high. So that's number one. Number two, I think rightly they pointed out, hey, so does that mean that a Democratic administration can declare, you know, climate change emergency and then just do whatever they want, they want and you can just usurp power from Congress? I mean, they really started to grapple with the amount of power that this administration has claimed in the executive. And this was the first time really that we've seen them push back in any area and say, you know what, Congress does have a role here. Like they do exist. They are supposed to be doing some things as well, not just you guys. But number three, I wonder if these arguments would have gone in such a clearly anti tariff direction if you hadn't just had this massive midterm reckoning. Trump is now looking more and more like already kind of a lame duck, given the reckoning that you had across the country. Very strong message sent about the unpopularity of his policies, about the unpopularity of his party overall of the direction of the country. And so this court has been very fearful of crossing Trump. They've been worried about his power. They've been worried about maintaining their own legitimacy. I think that's a big part of the reason why they've done all these shadow docket decisions that have gone in his direction to avoid upsetting the apple cart and having this direct confrontation with him. Now he's looking a little bit less, little bit less powerful, he's looking a little bit more vulnerable. And that may be playing into some of this as well. I mean, these are very political actors. No one should fool themselves otherwise.

[Ryan Grim]

Yeah, look, definitely probably part of it in terms of what they're all looking at. And, you know, this refund question, I just can't get away with this. Go ahead and put C6 up on the screen. This is gonna be one of the craziest things. If these get struck down, there's a liability of a trillion dollars. If they rule that the tariffs are illegal, tariff payments will be considered quote wrongfully collected taxes. That tariff will then apply to 150 countries, nearly every product in the United States. That will then reshape the global economy just from the outflows of from the US treasury, not to mention to all of the companies. And you know, Ryan even said this is that yeah, if you think those companies aren't going to just take that money and immediately buy back their own stock and not let's say, you know, like lower prices or any of that, you're also delusional. So the net result would be no money even in the government's coffers, no investment spur, nothing. And the companies themselves would get a massive windfall in cash. The only people left holding the bag are those who bought goods in the interim and you know, or if you're a non stockholder then you're done. So I mean that seems to be the most likely scenario. By the way, I should just one thing to mention, there is an argument from the Solicitor General that if they do get struck down, it should only be from when the case was brought and specifically by the plaintiffs, which is the Oregon like a few others, that those goods and it shouldn't broadly apply because of unfeasibility. We'll see. Pretty unfair in my opinion if you were forced to pay those tariffs.

[Krystal Ball]

But I don't know, I mean here's the other thing. It's like you can go to Congress, you've got Republican House majority, you got Republican Senate majority. But there's a reason why Congress has not fought back. They don't want to have to take this vote. Cuz most of them actually oppose the tariff program. But they don't wanna get crosswise with Trump. So as with many things, they're just happy to say yeah, you do it. We don't wanna have to say anything about it, we don't wanna really anything to do with it. So in theory with Republican control and Republican President, he could pass whatever tariff regime he wants through Congress. But he likes the ability to tweet out they're on, they're off, they're this level, they're that level, et cetera. He likes having that power and also by the way somebody likes insider trading off of that information as well, which we've seen multiple times like individuals making millions and millions of dollars pre running whatever Trump is about to announce. So he's not interested in having actually some sort of coherent program that he has to pass through Congress, and Congress is not interested in having their hands of Republicans in Congress, but are not interested in having their hands on it either. So that's why if this does get struck down, it really will be a bit of a death knell for what he can do on tariffs, unless he just decides to ignore them, which you know, he's doing on on food stamps.

[Ryan Grim]

Attention parents and grandparents. If you're looking for a gift that's more than just a toy, give them something that inspires confidence and adventure all year long. Give them a Guardian bike, the easiest bike to learn, safest to ride, and the number one kids bike on the market. With USA Made Kids specific frames and patented safety technology, kids are learning to ride in just one day. No training wheels needed. It's why Guardian is America's favorite kids bike and the New York Times and Wirecutter's top pick three years in a row. This holiday season, Guardian is offering their biggest deal of the year. Over 40% in savings on all bikes, plus $100 in free accessory. Each bike arrives 99% assembled, so setup takes minutes, not hours. Whether it's their very first ride or their next big upgrade, Guardian makes every pedal feel safe, smooth and fun. Join over 500 happy families who've discovered the magic of Guardian. Visit guardianbikes.com to shop. Now that's guardianbikes.com I turned off news altogether.

[Krystal Ball]

I hate to say it, but I.

[Ryan Grim]

Don'T trust much of anything. It's the rage bait.

[Krystal Ball]

It feels like it's trying to divide people.

[Ryan Grim]

We got clear facts. Maybe we can calm down a little. NBC News brings you clear reporting. Let's meet at the facts. Let's move forward from there. NBC News reporting for America. Tis the season for identity theft. This time of year most of us are checking off our holiday gift lists. But guess what? Identity thieves have lists too. And your personal information might be on them. Protect your identity with Lifelock. Lifelock monitors hundreds of millions of data points every second and alerts you to threats you could miss by yourself. Even if you keep an eye on your bank and credit card statements. If your identity is stolen, your own US based restoration specialist will fix it, guaranteed or your money back. And all plans are backed by the million dollar protection package. The last thing you want to do this holiday season is face drained accounts, fraudulent loans or other financial losses from identity theft all alone. Make this season about joy, not identity theft. With Lifelok save up to 40% your first year. Call 1-800-LIFELOK and use promo code iheart or go to lifelock.com iheart for 40% off terms. Apply.

[Krystal Ball]

ADL. Not a fan of Zoran Mamdani. Apparently the feeling is quite mutual. And they have announced in the wake of his election, this is honestly insane and frankly racist. They've announced an initiative to track and monitor all Mamdani administration policies and appointments to quote unquote, protect Jewish New Yorkers. So Greenblatt has gotten so far out over his skis on his anti Mamdani meltdown freakout that even the Morning Joe crew, Joe Scarborough specifically, are like, dude, you can't be serious about this stuff. Let's go ahead and take a listen to that.

[Ryan Grim]

Look, it's not about politics. This morning we launched a tip [e-mail] NYC so if you are Jewish and you experience antisemitism where you work or.

[Summer Lee]

Where you worship or where you live.

[Ryan Grim]

We want to know so we can track it. And look, I tell you, we also, and there has been anti Semitism in New York that we've talked about time and time again. This isn't something new because he got elected last night.

[Summer Lee]

Will you work with him?

[Ryan Grim]

Will you sit and talk to him?

[Summer Lee]

Well, I mean will he, will you.

[Ryan Grim]

Have be a part of this process? He has said publicly that he will not work with the ADL and Jonathan Greenblatt or when an elderly person is firebombed in Boulder, Colorado, like an 80 year old woman, like someone angry about. We're all shocked and we all find this abhorrent. And I'm sure that the, the next mayor would say the same thing, wouldn't he? You have to ask him. I think he has said the same thing. I don't know. I think you have to. I think you look at the fact that he has gone to one high holiday service after another. He is taught to the Jewish community. That's not exactly right. He went to an anti Zionist synagogue which is like going to the black breakout at CPAC and saying you understand African Americans. I mean, come on, you're saying he hasn't talked to the Jewish community? I don't know the mainstream. Now look, he has been to synagogues. He has Jewish people working for him for sure. Right. But if you look at the biggest institutions that represent Jewish New Yorkers, I have yet to see him engage with any of those. Now my hope is the mayor elect will do so in the days and weeks to come. But in the meantime. But you're not suggesting that he supports the firebombing in Colorado? Never said that. You're not suggesting that he supports the fire bombing. I never said that. You might. Nah. But you know what? There's a lot of blurring and blending here, Jonathan. And you know I love you and you're on all the time and always a fierce defender of yours, but you seem to be like blurring a lot of things together and then looking into that camera and say, call us. We're going to make sure that he doesn't support the. No. I say to Jewish New Yorkers, call us if you feel unsafe. I say to Jewish New Yorkers, call us if you are harassed. And so let me clarify. How about you calling his team Mamdani's team? Or how about talking to people who may know him? And you, let's see if that. Like Reverend Al. Talk to Reverend Al. Maybe you guys can get together and have lunch and talk. Isn't that a more concern?

[Krystal Ball]

Incredible clip there. I mean, he tries to pull the whole, oh my God, this person was firebombed. And Joe does not accept the emotional blackmail. He's like, yes, that's terrible. I'm sure the mayor would say that's terrible too. Are you insinuating that he wouldn't? And, oh, well, you'll have to ask him. Which is him insinuating that he wouldn't be horrified by, you know, some Jewish person getting murdered or firebombed or whatever. I mean, it is deeply disgusting and especially at a time, I mean, look like there's a whole thing happening on the right about whether Nick Fuentes should be part of the coalition, et cetera, like an overt neo Nazi, genuine anti Semite. These fricking people don't have anything to say about that. But God forbid you have someone who is anti Zionist and outspoken about it. And also, by the way, Muslim, total meltdown, massive project to track everything, blah, blah, blah. By the way, I don't know if you saw, there were just some new stats that came out where they did a deep dive into the alleged anti Semitism incidents at one particular university. And there was one that didn't have to do with Israel 1. And so that's the game with this dude. And it's become.

[Ryan Grim]

Even on that one. Let me look at the details.

[Krystal Ball]

We gotta write.

[Ryan Grim]

Let me see the details.

[Krystal Ball]

Look, with this dude, it's become transparent, even to someone like Joe Scarborough who is there saying, listen, I've been your defender. And even I'm like, come on, this is getting Ridiculous. You are trying to insinuate things that are wildly unfair against this guy who, you know, you know, the only thing they can ever point to with him is he refused to condemn globalize the intifada. Not that he says it, not that he, you know, any of that, just that he refused to condemn it. That's the closest that they can come. And the freak out has been completely deranged.

[Ryan Grim]

Yes. So silly. I mean, look, I will say the ADL spends many a time on Nick Fuentes and on all the right wing as well. It's just that they also have the Trump administration, I wouldn't say in their pocket per se, but they're definitely in a convenient alliance.

[Krystal Ball]

I think there are a lot of these types, including Netanyahu, who don't really care about actual antisemitism so long. In fact, in some ways genuine antisemitism makes their case for Israel stronger of like, we have to have the state to protect the Jews. So they've been happy to make alliances with, you know, far right, like flirting with genuine anti Semitic types so long as they are allowed to have their apartheid, genocidal ethnostate. That is the one line you can't cross.

[Ryan Grim]

Well, I've said, you know, John Pottericz, who's Mr. Commentary Napo Baby, literally said Trump can say shylock because he bombed Iran. I was like, okay, so all right, I mean, well, don't really want to hear about antisemitism from you ever again. So Mr. Human Egg. But that's part of that is kind of giving away the game. Greenblatt already gave the game away. This is all just about Israel. These people are the wokest people on the planet. Every word he just said reminds me of the same type of like BLM bullshit rhetoric, by the way, including pointing to incidents of like, oh, there's this one incident over there. And that is what you have. You know, that is exactly what you say when you don't condemn it. And people are like, yeah, I obviously condemn that, but that doesn't mean that I should have to like put on a dashiki and kneel in the middle of a square. And they're like, whoa, whoa. And then now in this exact same thing. Put the next one up on the screen. The ADL has announced a new initiative to, quote, track monitor policies and personnel appointments of the incoming Mamdani administration to protect Jewish residents across the five boroughs. So the anti antisemites are now making lists of people. Are we tracking this? We are now going to make lists about the People who do not align with our politics. And then we'll publicize that. I mean, again, this is the same woke tactics that all of these people did. Like, all of the lists of the people who don't sign our pledges, they must be filed. They must put their names publicized. It's like, it's just sick, sickening to watch, honestly. It really is. Especially because nobody in the right spectrum is condemning any of this stuff out of an alliance of convenience, because adl, Miriam Adelson and others are just chucking money into the Republican Party. How do you not look at the current election results and say, yeah, we need to get rid of this shit. People are done with it. The guy who took the podium and said, I'm not going to visit and I won't, you know, cave to your tactics, just won the election. Learn from it. Everybody just move on.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah, the level of just overt, like, Islamophobic bigotry, it honestly is higher than even what I saw after 911 because it's out in the open. And it was both Democrats and Republicans. I mean, Cuomo, from the beginning, he was, you know, saying, laughing along as someone said that Zorin would be cheering on 911 on a radio show. Disgusting. He was darkening his skin tone and lengthening his beard. In mailers, you had Kirsten Gillibrand and calling him a jihadist. I mean, the number of people called him a jihadist just.

[Ryan Grim]

I didn't know she said that.

[Krystal Ball]

Oh, you did? Yeah.

[Ryan Grim]

I didn't realize.

[Krystal Ball]

Yes. I mean, it's just absolutely insane. And, you know, this is the, like, from the right. It's just uniform across the board, acting like he's gonna implement some kind of, like, Sharia law. Total insanity. And I think part of his victory was voters just being like, this is absolute nonsense. You know, and it cut against their argument that he's some, you know, he's like a lefty radical communist, but then at the same time, he's like Islamist Sharia law jihadist. Two things didn't really work together. And then people see the guy and are like, you guys are out of your minds. Like, this is not credible whatsoever. What you're trying to say, the low.

[Ryan Grim]

IQ Islamophobia is an Israel tactic. It's actually one that they've explicitly said out in the open.

[Krystal Ball]

That's exactly right.

[Ryan Grim]

That's exactly what we want to do, is to maintain support for Israel, to make it so that it's like an Abrahamic. You know, we all band together against the Muslims, the West, about the West. But then you're like, wait, do Western countries usually have right to rape protests? Is that, is that the same barbaric behavior that you condemn in Islamic country? Because, oh, maybe you're actually kind of the same and that's actually really not good for you. And so like that's, that's the. What they really run into. A lot of it is being pushed by the Randy Fines of the world. It's fascinating. It actually is. Is that much of the anti Israel right, which is probably more predisposed to being explicitly anti Muslim, is not the one who is pushing this. It is actually capital L, like liberal. Right? The people who are pro Israel, who are the ones who are most embracing this like Sharia law, coming to New York City stuff. And it's literally just to con. It's literally just to protect pro Israel politics. It's totally crazy. It's like Randy Fine and all these other people who are the ones who are pushing it the most. So, yeah, I mean, don't fall for it. And also like, I really just believe in like, like looking at stuff on their face and it's like, oh, so was Zoran Lamdani is Sharia law the guy whose wife wears like a bra singlet under a. See, sure.

[Summer Lee]

It's like.

[Ryan Grim]

Yeah, I just don't really think that's accurate.

[Krystal Ball]

I don't think people are really buying.

[Ryan Grim]

That Zoran is from a shitlib family.

[Krystal Ball]

Like, no, he's from a legit leftist.

[Ryan Grim]

Okay, well, family, I would say there's not too much of a distinction on the culture. And that's kind of what I'm getting at is if you look at the like milieu of which Zoron and the people come from amongst Indians, they are one of the most hated subgroups of like the high elite. I think he even. This is very in the weeds, but the Indians will know what I'm talking about. I think Zoran quoted Nehru in his.

[Krystal Ball]

He did, yeah.

[Ryan Grim]

Yeah. So Nehru is probably like the biggest villain in India right now under the nationalist government because he's the one who kind of pushed this so called, like heterogeneous society, which was explicitly pro Muslim. Whatever. We can go to the debates later. But the point is it's just that by doing that he's not Sharia law. It's just he's a capital L liberal, like quite literally in a lot of his positions. And looking at him explicitly, it's just so insane, you know, to say that that is what's coming. It's like he probably is Much more socially liberal than 99% of the US population. So just to call it by what it is, I don't understand why they can't do it.

[Krystal Ball]

Well, and here's the thing too, is they've. So Bannon and Andy Ogles and Randy Fine are all threatening to denaturalize him. They're trying to introduce bills in Congress also to keep him from being. From being sworn in. Using the 14th amendment somehow. I mean, I'm not gonna say these things are gonna work out, but, you know, I mean, the attack on him personally and just again, in the most flagrantly racist ways you can imagine, just because he's Muslim, he must be into Sharia law and jihad is literally the argument that's being made here is so repellent and repulsive. And then there's a level of genuine hysteria that I think. I mean, I think some of these people genuinely believe that he's gonna like, authorize pogroms against Jews in New York City. I think they believe that.

[Ryan Grim]

I think they believe it because of the ADLs of the world.

[Krystal Ball]

Totally. Who are real.

[Ryan Grim]

They're the people who are the ones who are pushing this.

[Krystal Ball]

Put D3 up on the screen. This is just one sign of the insanity here. So NYC's fire commissioner is resigning from the administration over disagreements with Zoran on Israel. Let me read you that sentence again and tell me if this makes any sense. New York City's fire commissioner is resigning over Mamdani's positions on Israel. Person familiar with Tucker's decision said it was influenced by Zoran's Zionist view, by his own Zionist views and belief that he could not continue to serve under Mamdani. Now, I don't think this individual will be a particularly large loss. Apparently he had no background in firefighting whatsoever. He was some sort of an Eric Adams donor, effectively, and that's how he ends up in the position. But that is so deranged and insane that that is like a sentence and a sentiment that exists. And then the last one. Let me just put this up on the screen. This is kind of funny. Everybody was sharing this New York Post headline, which I don't find this poll particularly credible, but whatever they say, there were nearly a million New Yorkers ready to flee New York City if Mamdani becomes mayor, possibly igniting largest exodus in history. Ryan pointed out, if these million people who are supposedly gonna pack up and move had just showed up to the polls, they could have voted for someone else and he never would've won. Which is why it's not very smart.

[Ryan Grim]

So definitely not.

[Krystal Ball]

But I will tell you that all the New Yorkers that I've talked to have been like, please go. If you said you're gonna leave, please do. Because that will actually, that'll drive down costs. That will actually drive down costs and make life easier for us. And we just don't particularly want you here. So bye.

[Ryan Grim]

Look, we'll see. I mean, you guys can watch our segment. I've talked about it. I don't think, like, I'm making a bet. And if I could make a poly market bet, I would. Aggregate rent will be higher four years from today, outpacing inflation, than it will be on the day that Toronto's elected. I will put a marker down. I don't think it's gonna work, but, you know, we'll see. In terms of the people who are leaving, if it's. It's about the right type of people. If the millionaire millennials and, and Napo babies leave, yeah, it's great, right? But if you have younger families and other people who are middle class, I was gonna say those are the people who are leaving who shouldn't be leaving. If you allegedly are a great place to raise a family now, if you have net migration of those types, then, yeah, I would say it's a failure. So, look, people should be judged on outcomes and we'll see how it works out. Like I said, I don't think much of it is gonna work. I think a lot of it's gonna be virtue signaling. And most of his speech was about Trump and all that, which is smart politically. I would do the same thing, because then it's about a bogeyman who's attacking us and not about whether I'm gonna lower the rent or any of that stuff. Fine. If that's what you guys want for your mayor, be cool.

[Krystal Ball]

I don't think that's fair to say that most of his speech was foul.

[Ryan Grim]

Come on.

[Krystal Ball]

Did you watch it all?

[Ryan Grim]

Yes, I watched the entire thing. The most high profile.

[Krystal Ball]

Trump is directly threatening the city with stripping their funding and sending an ice on all of that. But number two, I mean, he definitely centered his campaign promises and the.

[Ryan Grim]

I'm not saying he didn't do that, but there were significant portions which were dedicated to national issues. But, I mean, that's kind of my point. I think you'll be absolutely saved by it. By the fact is, I think that's what a lot of those voters want. I'm not so sure many of them even particularly care whether he can even deliver on his promises. Most of politics is about whether somebody appears to be fighting for you. But we'll see. I mean, I put my marker down if the rent goes down. I'd be happy for you. I really will be. I don't think it's going to work. Okay, we've got what, Summer Lee standing by. So why don't we get to it? Attention parents and grandparents. If you're looking for a gift that's more than just a toy, give them something that inspires confidence and adventure all year long. Give them a Guardian bike, the easiest bike to learn on, safest to ride, and the number one kids bike on the market. With USA made Kids specific frames and patented safety technology, kids are learning to ride in just one day. No training wheels needed. It's why Guardian is America's favorite kids bike and the New York Times and Wirecutter's top pick three years in a row. This holiday season, Guardian is offering their biggest deal of the year. Over 40% in savings on all bikes, plus $100 in free accessories. Each bike arrives 99% assembled, so setup takes minutes, not hours. Whether it's their very first ride or their new next big upgrade, Guardian makes every pedal feel safe, smooth and fun. Join over 500 happy families who've discovered the magic of Guardian. Visit guardianbikes.com to shop now. That's guardianbikes.com I turned off news altogether.

[Krystal Ball]

I hate to say it, but I.

[Ryan Grim]

Don'T trust much of anything. It's the rage bait.

[Krystal Ball]

It feels like it's trying to divide people.

[Ryan Grim]

We got clear facts. Maybe we can calm down a little. NBC News brings you clear reporting. Let's meet at the facts. Let's move forward from there. NBC News reporting for America. Tis the season for identity theft. This time of year, most of us are checking off our holiday gift lists. But guess what? Identity thieves have lists too. And your personal information might be on them. Protect your identity with lifelock. Lifelock monitors hundreds of millions of data points every second and alerts you to threats you could miss by yourself. Even if you keep an eye on your bank and credit card statements. If your identity is stolen, your own US Based restoration specialist will fix it, guaranteed or your money back. And all plans are backed by the million dollar protection package. Package. The last thing you want to do this holiday season is face drained accounts, fraudulent loans or other financial losses from identity theft all alone. Make this season about joy, not identity theft. With Lifelock, save up to 40% your first year. Call 1-800-LIFELOCK and use promo code iheart or go to lifelock.com iheart for 40% off terms apply.

[Krystal Ball]

We are very fortunate to be joined in studio this morning by Congresswoman Summer Lee. She is a progressive representative of the Pittsburgh area. Great to see you.

[Summer Lee]

It's so good to see you.

[Krystal Ball]

Yes. And too long and in person. Yes, indeed. Double treat. I have a lot of things I want to talk to you about. First, let's just jump in with, like, the overall election results. What do you think is the message that the American people were trying to send?

[Summer Lee]

Oh, my goodness. You know, I think I don't want to take this election alone. I want to take both of the elections together. Right. Because I think that weaving them together tells a big story. Right. I think that last November, it was. It was a change. It was like we want systemic change. We want to see an acknowledgement that things aren't working, that the way that things have gone for so long that we don't like. And I think that coupling this one, honestly, I think it's that people are horrified.

[Ryan Grim]

Right.

[Summer Lee]

You know, oftentimes, obviously, when the party in power faces an election, it usually is a bloodbath, but I do think that. And I am grateful that people came out. People came out. A lot of people felt like they had something actually exciting to vote for. You had other folks who felt like they were voting against something. Whatever it was, folks showed up, and I think they sent the message that they don't like the direction that Trump and his folks are taking us in currently.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah. And what do you think for Democrats? What do you think Democrats should take from that?

[Summer Lee]

Oh, my goodness. I think that we're always gonna take the wrong lesson. Honestly, I sometimes wonder if we're doomed to take the wrong lesson. I think that a couple separate them, obviously, with Zoron, I just feel, like, energy. You know, people have been begging for some sort of just responsive representation that says, I see you, I know you. I'm not gonna be afraid to lift up just like, the regular stuff that you want. Not gonna tiptoe around it. Right. I'm gonna actually go and be amongst you. I'm gonna go to where you are. I'm gonna bring you. That's what people like that every time people like that. And then, you know, I think that we watched. We all watched it, right? We watched for months as, you know, some Democratic figure, you know, they didn't want to endorse. They didn't want to touch him. I think that that is a little bit of an indicator that we're making the wrong decision, we're taking the wrong message.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah. Let me tell you what I've been thinking about with that. So you had Kirsten Gillibrand, I think, never endorsed, called him a jihadist. Unbelievable. You had Chuck Schumer never endorsed, wouldn't say who he voted for on Election Day when the other choice was either an actual Republican or the guy who was endorsed by Donald Trump. And you can't tell us that you voted for the Democratic nominee. Okay. Hakeem Jeffries did, at the very last minute, very reluctantly and passive aggressively did endorse and give him that. And so I've been thinking about, you know, what is it? Right.

[Summer Lee]

Yeah.

[Krystal Ball]

What is it about this man that is so repellent?

[Summer Lee]

I don't think it's just this man, to be clear. And don't get me wrong, I think that there are parts of this man that makes it easier for them to be, except for some folks, to be as outward. Right. Because he is young, he's Muslim, he's an immigrant. Right. Especially Muslim. Like, I think that sometimes that gives people a little bit more of a comfort that they just should not have.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah.

[Summer Lee]

But like we saw, we saw with me in my early days when I first ran, we see it with a lot of like young, especially people and progressive.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah.

[Summer Lee]

That combination really does something to the establishment.

[Krystal Ball]

And here's what, what I came to. So I think Israel is a big part of it. I don't think there's any doubt about that. And I want to dig into that more with you because for people who don't know, I mean, the Israel lobby spent, you can tell me how many millions against you trying to defeat you. And they failed. And that was at a time when awareness of AIPAC and Israel was not the red hot dividing line with the level of public awareness that it is. It's a different day now. It is a different day. So I want to get into that with you, but I've been thinking about it with Zorin. I think, number one, it's his just stridently like, I'm not going to kowtow you. I'm not going to tell you the things you want to hear. I'm going to say I think it should be a state with equal rights. I'm going to stand firm on my position and I think it's that. But I also think it's this sense from Democratic leadership that they are losing control of their ability to tell the base who they are allowed to vote for and who they're not. And Zoron, to me, is the biggest example of, you know, they did everything they could. They had their scion of a storied political family and Andrew Cuomo, he had all the money behind him in the world, et cetera. They tried to paint Zoron as it and a jihadist anti Semite, which is just wild beyond a pale step, which is insane and totally racist. And all of their normal tactics completely fell flat. And you see this right now with Graham Platner as well, where voters are like, no, we're gonna judge for ourself and you're not gonna get to tell us that is different from the past. I mean, in 2020, we all watched when the political and media leadership said, it's gotta be Joe Biden. It was Joe Biden. And the Democratic base largely listened. They had a lot of sway. And so to me, that's actually the more existential threat for them and the more existential sense for them is that the fact that they would still stick with this guy and give him this massive upset victory, that means we don't have the power anymore.

[Summer Lee]

Oh, I think that that's absolutely, like the underlying thing behind a lot of progressives, right, this idea that we don't, you know, we're not playing the whole, you know, we're choosing both masters. We're not on the right. We are unapologetically against corporate interests, you know, especially those corporate interests, right, that are not in line with working class people. Unapologetically for working class people. They threw everything that they could at that man. And you know what he did? He pivoted every time to, yeah, but the price of housing, but the buses, right? But affordability. But affordability, right? And then I think that they. That is not a politics that they've been allowed to do. So I think on one hand, when they see an uninhibited progressive candidate like Zorwan, you know, they see what they were never able to be, right?

[Krystal Ball]

There's a lot of jealousy.

[Summer Lee]

I feel like that, right? This could be just me, you know, therapizing them. But just having experienced this for some time, right, I think that there has been this club that exists, and this is the way that we do it. And our number one God is incumbency itself, right? Maybe fighting, fighting with, right? You know, our lobbyists, our corporate interests, the money, the big, big, big, big, big money that comes into these races, right? And then you get someone who comes in and says, I'm going to bypass that money, I'm going to go straight to people in ways like we saw the same thing, which is all the progress from 2018 not going to start. The world didn't start in 2018, but that's the world that I know 2018 on. It was like this animosity that instead of going to the same consultants, we went straight to social media, to digital, to email, to the streets. Grassroots volunteers bringing in people, growing the base that were bringing people in who aren't always the ones who get the mailer, they're not the ones who get the phone call. Old methods, right. Revolutionize the way that we interact with people, you know, who we're interacting with them on behalf and how we talk about things, that is all different than what they've all known. So, yeah, I think that just this idea that we recognize that the system itself, whoever is in power in the system, the system itself has to change is frightening for folks. For an institution that has relied on the counterbalance between one corporate owned interest.

[Ryan Grim]

And the other one.

[Krystal Ball]

I think that's very insightful because I think part of the psychology there is. There's a lot of telling themselves a story of like, well, I wish I could be for Medicare for all. But that's just.

[Summer Lee]

You always hear people say that, I wish, I wish I could.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah. Or I wish I could be more outspoken on issues. But this is just the reality. And so when you have people who are actually doing this, it makes them their whole narrative of why they haven't done the things that they really need to do to deliver the American people. It crumbles and they're, excuse me, falls.

[Summer Lee]

Apart or, you know, it does crumble. But don't get me wrong, right. Because the reality is, is that, yeah, we've come a long way on being able to speak out, you know, just very clear about the genocide, you know, and just all of the things that led up to it for decades. And there are also some, A lot of people who lost.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah.

[Summer Lee]

So the reality of, you know, what, you know can happen, the money that will come in after you. And not just the money. Right. Because it's not just political, it's not just political pressure. Right. We know that there are people in nonprofits, folks have faced real retribution for speaking the truth on this one. So I don't want to say that it crumbles, but I do want to say that bravery, like having courage, it's frightening for people who have chosen to not. Right. So. Because it's like, oh, I'm choosing my comfort. Because when I spoke out, right. And I spoke out Right. When I was just me and AIPAC chose to come after me. Right. I knew that there could be a consequence and I chose to say like it was more important for me to be honest, more important for me to be truthful and real to my values, you know, and come what may. And there are a lot of people who don't want to do that. So I think that that is another thing too.

[Krystal Ball]

Can you talk a little bit more about that race and the amount of money that was spent against you? And also like, what was it, what had you said that was so deeply offensive or what had you done that was so deeply offensive that justified this multi million dollar smear campaign against us?

[Ryan Grim]

Honestly.

[Summer Lee]

Oh, what they spent against me then is peanuts. Peanuts are what they're spending now. Right. I think they spent like a measly four and a half million against me.

[Krystal Ball]

You know, what do they spend against Jamaal Bowman? It was like 20 million or something. Insane. Yeah.

[Summer Lee]

Many, many millions. Right. Just. And it's going to keep getting bigger. Honestly, I hadn't even said anything right. When I first ran for Congress. I think I had literally one post, I had one tweet once that said, honestly, that likened what I saw and what I perceived was happening to Black Lives Matter. And that was just. That was a bridge too far for them because I think that so many people want black folks to stay out of it. They want black folks to have a one dimensional view of things. So I was threatening just by being black and progressive.

[Krystal Ball]

So you likened the Palestinian struggle to basically like black liberation struggles.

[Summer Lee]

I have, yeah.

[Krystal Ball]

And that was, that was, it was once we too far.

[Summer Lee]

AIPAC has never reached out to me. Like we know the narrative, right. A new candidate shows up, the first call they usually get is from their local AIPAC rep. Then they do the interest paper. Yeah. People have talked about it. We've talked about it. Even Thomas Massey. People are talking about it more now. It is a real thing. AIPAC has never reached out to me. AIPAC has never asked for a meeting. They looked at me.

[Krystal Ball]

Why do you think that?

[Summer Lee]

Honestly, I'm not even sure. Right. I'd like to host that. They looked at me and said, the good sis is unbought and unbossed. It wouldn't matter if we call. I don't know if that's the real reason because they have actually reached out to other folks. Yeah, you know, other folks in my cohort.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah.

[Summer Lee]

They didn't even bother with me. They were like, we don't want her.

[Krystal Ball]

Well, I know Jamal Bowman told us that they reached out to him and he said politely declined. And then they went through another organization.

[Summer Lee]

Black organization.

[Krystal Ball]

Yes, a black men organization in New York that he had a positive relationship with and basically like tricked him into having a meeting with them because they were so desperate to like get that in. So it's very interesting that they just didn't even try with you. And then they saw that one tweet and they're like, okay, we gotta go all out to make this. They went all out, make sure that this lady is defeated. But they failed in your case. They failed in other cases. You're right, they did succeed. And I wanna know from your perspective how much things have shifted, how much further you're allowed to go. Because again, what you said is so tame compared to. I mean, now it's undeniable. It's a genocide. Vast majority of Democratic voters say it's a genocide. We should not funding them at all ever again. The disconnect between where the base of the Democratic Party is and where Democratic leadership is too is truly, you know, something beyond what I've ever seen before on any issue. So, you know, talk a little bit about some of those dynamics. How much further you feel like politicians feel like they can go. And then also whether or not Democratic leadership realizes how at odds they are with their own voters here. Yes, yes, they do.

[Summer Lee]

So when. When. Right after October 7th. And you know, there were many people who were like, we can see what's gonna happen. Like, we can see what's gonna happen because. Right. History. We come out with the Ceasefire now resolution. When we introduced that, I think it was maybe nine people on that. By the time that Congress ended, I think that we had never gotten a white person to sign on. Never. I don't think we ever got a white person. Take now our. What is the weapons embargo?

[Krystal Ball]

Block the bombs.

[Summer Lee]

Yeah, the. Block the bombs. So now my roommates block the bombs resolution. I think what we're already maybe beyond 20s, 30s, right. And more coming every day. Like we've been in a shutdown for six weeks. And from what I understand, there are still more people who are looking to get on it now. You have people who are saying, for whatever reason they're saying it, that they will not accept APAC dollars. That is because of the work that has happened on the ground to educate people on how this organization has moved, how they have come especially into black and brown districts, districts that don't have as much money, don't have as many resources and really honed on those districts, right? People are now waking up to that. People are coming and they're running on both opposite ends of the spectrum. Some people are like, listen, I'm still, you know, Israel is 100% right. There is no nuance. And there are people who are like, okay, know, but you.

[Krystal Ball]

Yes, these kids, right?

[Summer Lee]

What's happening with these hospitals? Like, what's happening, right, with these journalists, right? There are people who are questioning it out loud in ways that we've never seen. More people are speaking out in their ways. Back when it first happened, people don't remember this, but we were in session for, I think, like 10 weeks straight. It wasn't until people went back home and then they found that at their town halls, people were saying, ceasefire, right? That they were going and they were fine. And they were talking to their district staffers, and their district staffers are saying people are calling and they are horrified by not just what they're seeing, but your stance. So, yeah, I think that they've known for some time that their districts do not align with this. This is why they're trying to change the narrative, right? They're trying to say, oh, well, you don't know enough to talk about this.

[Krystal Ball]

Right.

[Summer Lee]

Well, you don't understand, Right?

[Krystal Ball]

No.

[Summer Lee]

All lobbyists have a right to exist. Right? I've heard that, which is why I focus. I laser focus on money in politics. I don't care if it's aipac, if it's crypto pills, if it's oil and gas, if it's pharma, if it's the nra. I do not believe that any corporation, any lobbyist should be able to have that much access and influence to members of Congress and to the financial processes of running for office. You don't have a democracy. You do not have a democracy when the people themselves do not get to make their own determinations for who they want in office. And there are some districts where that's what they want. They want somebody who doesn't care about a genocide. They want people like that, that's fine. But most districts don't. In every district, you get to choose that.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah, I think that's very. I think that's really important. Really well said and fascinating. Look at. I mean, the thing that I just keep struggling with is then what is it that keeps so many of them from changing their position? Like, why is this.

[Summer Lee]

They don't have to. No, they don't have a. I think. I do think it is. I think it goes back to that beginning. They have known a Politics. That's the only politics that they've known.

[Krystal Ball]

So is they sort of muscle memory?

[Summer Lee]

Yes, muscle memory. They've done their politics this way from the time that they got in. Good, bad or indifferent. Good, bad, or indifferent. Being brave, and I'm not saying this as an excuse, being brave in politics is underrewarded and understated. Every day you're juggling interest. Right. Do I vote on that bill with a poison pill that people aren't going to understand, knowing that I won't have enough money to get the message out. We run every two years when we're talking about just how much money comes into politics now. Like, this is the race to the bottom. Right. It was remarkable that year that they spent $4 million against me. They went to the next race after me and spent 8 million against Donna Edwards. Right. Then you saw how much it costs to run most expensive races in history. Last cycle in primaries. It's only gonna get more expensive. And if you're somebody who doesn't want to spend all your time dialing for dollars, if you're a black elected and you're like, who would I dial for to get it? You're poor. Who would I doubt for to even get it? You gotta weigh these interests. So I think that the lack of courage is also conditioned. Yeah, I think that's conditioned. And I think that people don't understand how often, like people who are Palestinian, people who are poor, the kids who are, you know, facing gun violence in their school. Right. They don't. They don't have the access to Congress. People like we do.

[Krystal Ball]

Right.

[Summer Lee]

You know, people with diabetes, people, you know, they're not up and in our offices every day. They don't have the power to get an audience with both the speaker and the leader. Bicameral, with the president, jpp. They don't get meetings with Trump.

[Krystal Ball]

Right.

[Summer Lee]

So it is also who you see. And too often people can just excuse a different perspective because they don't hear that perspective. They don't have to hear that perspective. Yeah, we have to change that.

[Krystal Ball]

Let's talk a little bit about Mayor Elect Mamdani. Let me play a little bit of highlights from his victory speech.

[Ryan Grim]

The sun may have set over our city this evening, but as Eugene Debs once said.

[Krystal Ball]

I can see the dawn.

[Ryan Grim]

Of a better day for humanity. We will prove that there is no problem too large for government to solve and no concern too small for it to care about Donald Trump. Since I know you're watching, I have four words for you.

[Summer Lee]

Turn the volume up.

[Ryan Grim]

President Trump, when I say this, to get to any of us, you will have to get through all of us.

[Krystal Ball]

So, Zoran, I mean, unbelievable star power, starting the speech with the Eugene Debs quote. Loved that moment. And now you've got this big discussion happening on the Democratic side of the aisle of, like, okay, what does the future of the Democratic Party look like? Is it candidates like Zoran? Is it candidates? More like Abigail Spanberger, who is more of a centrist. After Donald Trump was elected, she came out and shook her finger at the left. It's all your fault this guy's coming back in power. And, I mean, the truth of the matter is it didn't matter what type of Democrat you were this week. They all won, including J. Jones, who had a pretty significant scandal and actually still out paste Kamala Harris. So I'm wondering how you're thinking about that and how you would make the case that the politics that you and I both share is the correct direction forward for Democrats not just to win, but to actually deliver for people to win and to win. So make sure that we're putting this rising fascism to bed.

[Summer Lee]

I beg, I beg of Democrats, I beg of you all, I beg of us to get out of this idea that all voters exists on the same, like, linear, you know, model that we make our politics exist in. The reality is, is that, you know, this whole left, right, middle thing, it is not how people organize their lives, and it's also just not how people organize their politics. Right. We talked earlier about how Zorawan was just relentless in focusing on his people, focusing on his people, wherever they were, whatever the comment, the topic was. He made a point of getting back to the things that people care about, and that's how you earn trust. But to do that, he had to know what people cared about. He had to know what excited them. He had to be a genuine, authentic messenger. Right? So, number one, we don't have a messenger. We don't have a message problem. We have a messenger problem. Right? The future of the Democratic Party is gonna be one that picks a side, right? And the side isn't, you know, are we gonna be. Are we gonna be the scary left? Are we gonna be the center? No, the side is, are you gonna be for the people, or are you gonna be for the special interest? That's the first thing that we have to do. So before we go into analyzing these races, we're just all Dems one. All Dems one. Wherever a Dem ran, let's talk about what the Dem Party brand is going to be. I don't really care if you are a centrist. I do care if you are somebody who believes that a corporation has more right to be comfortable in the society to be taken care of than working class people. And you cannot convince me that whether you are in the Appalachian Mountains or if you are in the Deep south or if you are on the coasts, you can't convince me that people want corporations to have more rights to have more access to care than regular people. So we got to get rid of that one. I think that that is the number one thing. Number two. Yeah. I think we should not discount what people like Zorwan are able to do. The cities do exist. We should not have to moderate our politics to areas that we don't represent. Just like Nebraska gets the right to have a representative that reflects them and their values. Why should our urban areas not. Why should black areas not get to have that? Why should PO areas not get to have that? Right. We get to have that too. And I think that too often the party likes to exclude us. Right. The pathway to 218 comes through our blue areas too.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah.

[Summer Lee]

Right.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah. What did you make of. I saw Cory Booker in particular, Pete Buttigieg in particular, like congratulations to all the Dems, but not really Zora. I mean they just couldn't.

[Summer Lee]

That's a choice.

[Krystal Ball]

And you know, the funny thing to me too is with Pete Buttigieg's post in particular, he mentioned the affordability message that that Spanberger and Mikey Sheryl ran on, which especially Cheryl Zoronda do that every day. Right. And I mean he really, in my opinion, you can tell me if you disagree with this. He was really the one that led the way on that and showed this is powerful.

[Summer Lee]

I'm very biased. I saw him leading on that.

[Ryan Grim]

Right.

[Krystal Ball]

This is very powerful. This politics is so powerful that it can turn Trump voters back. The Democratic Party. It can allow me to win young men by 40 points. It can allow me to unseat a legit political dynasty coming from 0% of the vote to victory with a majority of the vote on election day. That's how powerful this message is. And so to just erase him from that I found to be very offensive.

[Summer Lee]

Again, it comes back to that lack of courage. Right. Cuz at the end of the day, they will always use us against each other. Listen, since I came onto the political scene in 2018, every election cycle the Republicans who barely exist in western Pennsylvania and nationally will use me on somebody's mailer again against some candidate in a district that Isn't as Democratic performing as mine every single time. They will do it. The question is, is what will we accept? Right. If the Republicans want to demonize black and brown people. Right. If they want to demonize queer and trans people, we don't have to acquiesce. We don't have to accept it. We have to go and do our work. So I'm trying to understand why is it that we, the left, we are mature enough to understand that there are different districts with different makeups and different values. Again, I think that all working class values, I think our message relates everywhere, neither here nor there, but we recognize that different districts exist. And we are not trying to say that you don't get to. You don't get to be. Why can we have the maturity to understand that and other people don't give us the same courtesy? Right. When Republicans are demonizing black women, I don't expect Democrats to help them every election cycle. It brings us back to that one. The, the back in 2020 when everybody was saying, oh, all these Democrats lost because of Black Lives Matter. They lost because of Defund the police. And I'm like, well, black folks have been, you know, we've been begging. We've been begging for people to look at this system. And you're going to now come and blame us that your candidate who did not run on that in a district that didn't focus on that, that that's the reason why they lost.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah.

[Summer Lee]

I don't think that we. I think that we're scapegoating us.

[Krystal Ball]

That we, that we actually did beat Donald Trump. Yes.

[Summer Lee]

And so we, like, our willingness to accept their messaging and their narrative has now bitten us in the butt, you know, as we, as we've come back around. Right. Because again, we yield the floor to them to create the narratives, and then we just react to it. And we got used to it when it was against people who we didn't want to defend, didn't know how to defend. But again, we saw what he was able to do. He excited people. This is the largest voter turnout in decades. He brought new people in, and that's what we want to do. Right. Like I'm looking around, that's what we want to do. We lost. We need more people. He went and got more people, and not only did he go and get them, I hear from people who are like, oh, my God, Jorwan is the first vote that I cast that made me excited.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah.

[Summer Lee]

I remember when people said that about my race and Rashida and so many People there, like I was excited to come. That's a party that we should aspire to, that people are not just voting out of duty, they're voting out of excitement. They're voting because I'm like, I believe a better world is possible and I actually have a responsibility to help to create it.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah, let me play for you. He got, I think asked a question about ICE and how he would handle. I mean, we're just seeing rampant lawlessness from not just ice, by the way. ICE is sort of the catch all, but it's ice, it's cbp, it's whoever FBI, whoever else, whatever other federal masked thugs have been set loose on American cities. Let's go ahead and take a listen to F2. This is Zorin talking about.

[Ryan Grim]

My message to ICE agents and to everyone across this city is that everyone will be held to the same standard of the law. If you violate the law, you must be held accountable. And there is sadly a sense that is growing across this country that certain people are allowed to violate that law, whether they be the president or whether they be the agents themselves. And what New Yorkers are looking for is an era of consensus, an era.

[Krystal Ball]

Of clarity, an era of conviction.

[Ryan Grim]

And that is what we will deliver to them.

[Krystal Ball]

I feel like one of the activist movements that is most vindicated in this moment is the Abolish ICE movement. I mean, truly, because you know, again, this is an ideology that's been smeared. And yet you see when ICE and CBP and these other agencies are turned loose on American streets, I mean, you see them literally shooting people and bragging about it, tear gassing little kids. You see them using Blackhawk helicopters to raid an apartment building and pull little kids out and zip tie them in the middle of the American citizens too, by the way. Not that it's okay when you do it to immigrants. You know, how do you think that the insane authoritarianism we've seen in our neighborhoods and streets, how do you think that has changed Americans perceptions of this administration and of the conversation around immigration?

[Summer Lee]

I think that unfortunately, like all things, it's a polarizing. It's a polarizing effect. You just said it, right? There are so many of us who have been warning that this is the trajectory that we've been going in. That's why you got, you know, the progressives, whether they be the elected progressives, the media progressives, the organizing movement progressives who have been talking about, hey, we're looking at. Because in our own communities we're experiencing it, right? We're looking at what's happening. And we're trying to ring the bell. Right. We're here now, and right now, I think you're still getting. I think that everybody is not. I don't think everybody's woke.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah.

[Summer Lee]

People are afraid of being woke. Like we gave them woke, so they're afraid of being woke now. But increasingly, people are seeing it. The masked ice agents is horrifying. And if you are not horrified, then you are not paying attention. You're not honest. Right. The just overreach that we're seeing from Trump, that started back in 2016, the media complicity and letting him. Allowing him to create his narrative, allowing him to overstep without real, serious analysis, real serious responsibility, accountability. Right. All of these. They've all been in motion for a really long time. And we see the voters who are saying no. Still, I think that people are, theoretically, I understand authoritarianism.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah.

[Summer Lee]

I think they're like, we're here. Theoretically. I think Americans are still reckoning with the idea of us living through an authoritarian regime in practice, because, again, American exceptionalism tells us this could have never happened to us. Right. Oh. Even if they were living through it, just another election is going to get us through it. I think that right now what we need are people to understand that when you actually fight authoritarianism, it isn't just with laws, because, again, he's lawless.

[Krystal Ball]

Right.

[Summer Lee]

What law can I pass? What law can I introduce that Mike Johnson is going to bring to the Florida floor that Republicans are gonna vote for, that's gonna go to the Senate, that they're gonna vote for and that President Trump is going to sign into law? That's a check on his own power.

[Krystal Ball]

Right.

[Summer Lee]

We know that's not gonna happen.

[Krystal Ball]

Not to mention the Supreme Court already said basically, blanket immunity for things remotely connected to.

[Summer Lee]

No, we need empowered people. We need people to think about what they're gonna do and how they're gonna use their dollars, how they're gonna use their labor?

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah.

[Summer Lee]

We need people to understand the power of resistance and also the sacrifice of resistance. Right. That's a different way of imagining a marriage America right now. So I think that, you know. But on the other hand, I think that there are still Trump folk who see what he does. I think some of them every now and then are like, that's wild. Yeah, that's wild. But then they go back to sleep and they wake back up and start the day over again, and we have to acknowledge and accept that that's where they are right now. I don't think that we are doing enough work that once someone does pick off that, we're like, welcome, welcome. We need more people. I think we gotta get out of the nine, nine, boo boo stage. Like, oh, we told you, don't do that. That 92%. No, man, we need more people. And yeah, accountability can also exist with grace or it can exist with allyship. We gotta figure that out. I don't think we're doing that enough yet.

[Krystal Ball]

What do you think of how Democratic leadership has met the moment or not met the moment? I do want to give credit. I think shutdown has been important. I think, I mean, it's incredibly painful right now for a lot of people. So I don't want to, you know, I don't want to minimize that. But at the same time, I think it's really proven the way that you can actually take control of the conversation. You know, health care was not really a central part part of the political conversation. It was basically ignored in 2024, which is insane. And now you have people looking at their premiums going up. They know where to sign the blame. They know what's going on. So I want to give credit for that. But at other moments there have been messages coming out from Jeffries and others saying don't talk about Kilmar, Brego, Garcia. Don't talk about perhaps the murdering random people in the Caribbean. Let's not talk about the ICE raids and immigration because that's not our strongest ground. You know, how do you think that at the federal level Democratic leadership has done?

[Summer Lee]

I think I must say I'm actually after that. I think that first I do want to say that we talked about courage and courage in politics. This shutdown took a level of courage that is not in the like a day to day norm of the Democratic.

[Krystal Ball]

Party because we know that the base really pressured leadership.

[Summer Lee]

Absolutely. From July from the reconciliation where Shuba got flamed. He got flamed for not standing firm. And I think that obviously he learned a lesson. But Democrats are going to, it's going to be painful because unlike Republicans, we actually don't want to see federal workers on one end, the wall closing in on them for not being paid, a wall closing in on the other end from them not being able to access SNAP benefits or liheap or whatever it may be. We actually don't want to see people suffer. So the pressure is going to be intense on the Senate this week.

[Krystal Ball]

Week.

[Summer Lee]

To open up, to win, to not win on healthcare, to not win on anything is to give up. There's gonna be a lot of incentive to do that, and they're gonna be in a lose, lose situation. That aside, I think that leadership has to look different than it ever looked before.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah.

[Summer Lee]

And I don't think that they have found the. I don't think they. I don't think they have the recipe right now. I don't. Because, you know, I was just talking to my staff. They're like, how you gonna answer this?

[Krystal Ball]

What other questions were you worried about getting?

[Summer Lee]

No, no, we weren't worried about. We'd get them all. Get them all. No, we weren't worried about anyone. They were like, if someone asked you that, who would you say no? But I was just like, no. I think that people just, like, even just really in the course of a conversation, I was like, I think that leadership traditionally sees itself as leadership of the caucus.

[Krystal Ball]

Right?

[Summer Lee]

Like, they are the leader of the caucus, and leadership has meant that we have to raise enough money to help the frontliners, have to raise enough money to flip the seats. We have to gain a majority. But leadership to the country right now looks like marching away. It looks like being in the trenches. Like, we have images of, like, George Washington on a horse on the front lines, like that type of leadership. People are looking for that, and they're not wrong. So I don't think that they have met that. And I think that that's what people want from us. And when you shift, who are we leaders of? I think that's what people are asking. We're not asking you to be leaders of each other.

[Krystal Ball]

That's a good question.

[Summer Lee]

Right. We're asking you to be leaders of our country, leaders of us. What can I be doing right now? My organization maybe has a couple dollars, and what should we do? Right. The labor unions are like, hey, you know, the labor history is a mighty one. What do we do? What do we do with it? People want to see people acknowledging that every movement in history was not led by Congress. It was led from the outside. The real movement came from the organized, empowered electorate. How do we get people back into that? How do we help people understand that the final failsafe of the democracy are the people? We don't get a dictatorship. Trump don't get to decide if we have a dictatorship. Right. Hakeem Jeffries doesn't get to decide if we have a dictatorship. We do. And we just want our leaderships to be with us in that. So to that extent, we all have to figure out better ways of doing that. And it will be hard because we have spent too much time telling People how the right way to protest is to just vote.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah.

[Summer Lee]

The right way to protest is to go run and not that. The right way to protest has always been you're organizing. It's always been when you take to the streets. That's always been an appropriate way to express this, to express a lack of consent when your government doesn't answer you when you say you want this.

[Krystal Ball]

Has Hakeem Jeffries earned your vote again for leader?

[Summer Lee]

I don't think, first of all, we had a whole year to go. My hope and dream. My hope and dream is that everybody will change the way that they're doing things. So right now, the question is, who's running? You know, who's even a part of the conversation about being a leader? I think that right now we have room where everybody is going to have to step it up. Everybody needs to step it up right now of the people who would ever think that they should be a leader. Right. I want to see how people are applying the lesson of this election cycle. I want to see how people are handling when a zoron comes. Because I was a Zoron. Right. Because all the squad, we were Zorans, and we remember how it felt to be treated, how we were treated by our party. We want to see them learn a lesson of that, learn a lesson from us. We want to see that. I want to see how they're applying the idea that people aren't just going to come and vote, we got to go and get them. I want to see some. Somebody who comes up with a horse. That's who I plan to vote for. Who coming? Who's coming with the horse? Who's the cavalry?

[Krystal Ball]

Are you going to be backing any primary challenges against incumbents?

[Summer Lee]

Oh, if they're. If they're not. Listen, if their districts are saying that they want something, I don't have a blank. I don't have blanket rules. Right. I don't know those districts.

[Krystal Ball]

You're open to it?

[Summer Lee]

Yeah, I'm open. I'm not. Sometimes I'm like, ah, it makes sense. Sometimes it don't make sense. Like, I think that people should be represented. I think people should be represented well. And I think that to the extent that we as incumbents are doing our job, that in and of itself protects us. And when we're not doing our job, we have to answer to our people. And if our people are all in a collective voice saying that they want something different, you're not going to see me being able to stand in the way of those folks.

[Krystal Ball]

Yeah.

[Summer Lee]

And I don't believe that anybody should stand in the way of those folks. I don't run that district. So I'd like to hope, and I think that this is going to be, I think this might be an anti incumbent year, not a Democrat or a Republican year because people are tired of gerontocracy people. Right? You look at the halls of Congress and you're just like, wait, people don't want that.

[Krystal Ball]

Credit to Nancy Pelosi for retiring.

[Summer Lee]

Credit to Nancy Pelosi. Nancy Pelosi, she looked at the landscape.

[Krystal Ball]

And she said, you know what? Let's call it here.

[Ryan Grim]

Let's call it.

[Summer Lee]

Let's call it. Let's call it. Which is, you know, my family. Don't let me, don't let me be 90 and caught up like this. Crystal, don't let me step in.

[Krystal Ball]

Don't step in.

[Summer Lee]

Step in for me, please.

[Krystal Ball]

All right. Congresswoman Summerlee, so great to see you. So great to catch up with you and hear all your thoughts on very interesting times that we're living in, aren't they?

[Summer Lee]

Let's get through them.

[Krystal Ball]

All right, guys, that does it here for us today, Friday show tomorrow we have Michael Blake joining us who has just announced a primary challenge against Richie Torres, which is very interesting. So we'll be getting the tea from him and lots of other interesting things to cover as well. There's of a lot whole meltdown going on over at Heritage foundation that I'm interested to hear from Emily on as well. So in any case, have a great day. We'll see you then.

[Ryan Grim]

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[Krystal Ball]

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[Summer Lee]

This is an iHeart podcast.