← Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar
Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar
1/16/26: Trump THREATENS Troops In MN, HISTORIC Nurse Strike, MAGA FLIPS Over Epstein Coverup
01:12:13
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- [00:00]
Krystal Ball
This is an iHeart podcast.
- [00:02]
Breaking Points Sponsor Announcer
Guaranteed Human support for the show comes from Public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On Public you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index with AI. It all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year, you can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It's IT screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like EFTs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors llc SEC Registered Advisor Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not investment recommendation or advice. Complete Disclosures available at public.comDisclosures want to.
- [01:14]
Emily Jashinsky
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Mac Callahan
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Chelsea Handler (Ad Voice)
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- [02:24]
Krystal Ball
Independent media just played a truly massive role in this election, and we are so excited about what that means for the future of this show.
- [02:31]
Ryan Grim
This is the only place where you.
- [02:32]
Mac Callahan
Can find honest perspectives from the left.
- [02:34]
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And the right that simply does not exist anywhere.
- [02:37]
Krystal Ball
El if that is something that's important to you, Please go to BreakingPoints.com, become a member today, and you'll get access to our full shows unedited ad free and all put together for you every morning in your inbox.
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- [02:49]
Ryan Grim
Future of independent news media, and we hope to see you@breakingpoints.com Good morning, everybody. Happy Friday. We're here with your Breaking Points Friday Edition. Crystal grew a mustache, actually. Now that is producer Mack. He's filling our mustache quota for the day because Griffin is also at a work event. So, Mac Ryan, excited to be here. We got a lot of news.
- [03:11]
Emily Jashinsky
All right, let's do it.
- [03:13]
Mac Callahan
Yeah, we got a lot we're going to get into. We have stealing this teeing up here from Emily. We have the Trump Truth Post calling for an insurrection to be called for here in the United States.
- [03:25]
Emily Jashinsky
We have insurrection to be squashed.
- [03:27]
Mac Callahan
Well, insurrection to be squashed, the Insurrection act to be utilized by Trump. We have him, quote, unquote, joking, according to Caroline Levitt, about canceling the 2026 midterm elections. We're going to get into the latest on ice, including a homicide that reportedly happened at a facility in Texas. We have Gavin Newsom with Ben Shapiro talking about the transing of the kids as well as sort of backing off some of his criticism of ice. We're going to get into Sean Ryan turning on Donald Trump over his cover up on the Epstein files. And then if we can get to it, we have Lindsey Graham weeping and crying over the lack of an Iran bombing by Donald Trump. And then we're also going to be joined by a guest, one of the New York City nurses that have just gone on strike. So a lot of good stuff to get to here.
- [04:17]
Emily Jashinsky
And one thing I can add is that last night I interviewed a woman who participated for several days in the Iran protests and has since left Iran and gave me details about the, the massacre and kind of the what, what she saw there. We have to blur her face and kind of disguise her voice because there's her, her family is still in Iran and would, would face repercussions if she spoke publicly about it. So that'll, that might not be ready until the weekend, but we'll, we'll have that as well.
- [04:51]
Mac Callahan
Great stuff. So do we want to go ahead and jump into this and start off with the. The Insurrection act reportedly in play here from the Trump administration. I'm going to go ahead and pull up this Truth Social here, if I can share my screen. So here we have Donald Trump on his Truth Social saying, if the corrupt politicians of Minnesota don't obey the law and stop the professional agitators and insurrectionists from attacking the patriots of ICE who are only trying to do their job, I will institute the Insurrection act, which many presidents have done before me, and quickly put an end to the travesty that is taking place in that once great state. Thank you for your attention on this matter. Signed President DJ to you.
- [05:35]
Emily Jashinsky
And so the thing that Republicans, some Republicans are saying in response to this is that, hey, and as Trump said, there are lots of presidents have done this before, and I think the number is 17. I've seen that floating around. I think it's been deployed about in like, 30 different instances. I was going, the Brennan center has a timeline of all the different times the Insurrection act has been used. And if anybody out there is looking for a podcast idea, like that would be. That would be it. Like just 30 episodes. About the 30 different.
- [06:08]
Ryan Grim
Wait, did you say just 30 episodes?
- [06:10]
Emily Jashinsky
30 episodes. That's three, what, three seasons, one episode per time. But if you, if you look at, if you run through when the Insurrection act has been used, these are the kinds of things that were blurbs in your history textbook. Fry's Rebellion in Bucks County, I guess, I think, I think Shay's Rebellion, it was used for some obscure stuff. Like a bunch of people in Vermont during Jefferson's presidency refused to stop trading with Canada. And so Jefferson, like, invoked the Insurrection act to try to put the Green Mountain Boys down. He failed. Nobody can. Nobody can put down the Green Mountain Boys. That's never going to happen. You got Andrew Jackson using it to break strikes. You've got other presidents using it to break strikes. You have. And then in the modern era, you've got George H.W. bush using it to quell the Rodney King riots. You've got LBJ using it sometimes to protect civil rights demonstrations and sometimes to squash riots in the 1960s.
- [07:10]
Ryan Grim
Desegregation.
- [07:11]
Emily Jashinsky
And what you notice about all of it, except maybe in the case of Jefferson going after the, the Green Mountain Boys. And you know, Vermont had a lot of ties with the French French. And you know, Jefferson, not a fan of Vermont, the first state to ban slavery. Other than that one, all of them have been conflicts that. Or uprisings that developed apart from the federal government. Like they were Nat Turner's Rebellion, for instance. They used the Insurrection act to put that down. They actually seems like they did it illegally. But set that aside. This would be basically the first case where the federal government instigated the thing. And then in the case of Minneapolis, you have, I think you had what, 200 people protesting the other night.
- [08:04]
Mac Callahan
Something.
- [08:04]
Emily Jashinsky
We're not talking, we're not talking about thousands or tens of thousands of people in the streets. We're talking about couple hundred people. You know, there was that viral interview on status coup from the guy who got off his. He's like, I got off my couch in the suburbs because I'm sick of this as an American. Like, that is not Ulyses S Grant taking on the clan, which is another example of him invoking the Insurrection Act. That is not the Colfax massacre, which is another example of the insurrection. So none of it fits. But Emily, what is the right, like, where's the right on this? Are they agitating for this? They're like, yeah, let's go. Time to really finish off Will Stancil and his boys. Or, or are they saying like, wait a minute, this is a little bit much. This is just Will Stancil and some and a handful of protesters.
- [08:55]
Ryan Grim
Well, we should explain it. Looking at the Brennan Sutter website right now, the way that they put it, the Insurrection act grants the President the authority to deploy military domestically and use it against Americans under certain conditions. And as Brennan center says, quote, is it is dangerously overbroad and ripe for abuse. A good point on that, by the way. I mean, even if we sometimes have this idea about what, what presidential authority looks like, and then there is an obscure Insurrection act isn't obscure, but it's a long, it's a long standing law that actually lets the President do a lot. So I think there's a constitutional and a prudential question. The constitutional question, he probably can do it. Tom Cotton, people may remember, was right. That's the Tom Cotton op ed that the New York Times retracted famously in 2020 during George Floyd riots, he said send in the troops. It was the headline the New York Times gave it and argued that Trump should have invoked the Insurrection act to quell, as he put it, quote, violent riots. And so I think the perspective that people are coming from is if you don't take significant action to quell violence, it only gets worse. I do think there's some evidence of that in the summer of 2020. I think it is unfortunate you guys are going to disagree with me on this. But unfortunate that there's not federal cooperation to get violent people out of Minneapolis. And I'm talking about non citizens with violent criminal convictions. But that said, it's hard for me, like on this whole thing since last week, I'm just always being pulled in multiple directions because it's Trump's response is always hard to defend, too.
- [10:44]
Emily Jashinsky
The problem with that argument is that as Mamdani pointed out to Trump, that the New York sanctuary law has an exception for violent criminals. That if you, that if ICE comes to New York City and is like, here's the guy, he's been convicted of assault and battery even he's or he's been convicted of involuntary manslaughter and he's right here in your city and he's undocumented. Like we want him under those circumstances. Mamdani has said we would cooperate with that. I would suspect that the Minneapolis sanctuary policy, because I know how Democrats write laws. They don't want to get hit by commercials that say they're protecting violent criminals. So they always put in carve outs in their laws so that they can say, oh no, no, it doesn't apply to murderers, rapists, abusers. So if Stephen Miller's actual goal was to go in and get violent criminals out, I think he would have the cooperation of the Minnesota State Police in the Minneapolis police department of St. Paul. Like if, if he, but that's not what he wants. He wants what he's getting, which is scenes of chaos and violence. And he wants 3,000 heads a day, I think.
- [12:03]
Ryan Grim
Yeah. I don't know what the Minneapolis law is particular, but in practice, this is just from a couple of, there's just a couple of examples that I'm looking at right now. And only two. So it's not a big, it's not a huge thing here. But you have an Ecuadorian illegal immigrant in August 2024, driving drunk, crashed head on into Victoria Harwell, killing her. A local Hanne county released him not once but twice and didn't cooperate with ICE detainers. There's that there's another vehicular homicide or no, this is what. Okay, so I'm looking at one here. I'm on the, I'm on a FOX News story. I'm looking at one. So that does sometimes happen where people go into jail and then there's non cooperation. People get released. I'll set that aside though, and just say the. Well, here, Mac, why don't you, Mac, you jump in, let's get a little. Because Mac is going to I think be even. You're going to be like, even further on this, I think. Probably.
- [13:00]
Mac Callahan
Well, I mean, I think I agree with kind of what the direction Ryan was going in and that this is clearly something that's being instigated by the federal government. Like, people locally are in an organic way responding to what they view as sort of like a sort of terrorist force coming into their neighborhood and knocking on doors and asking people for papers and harassing people, throwing people into unmarked cars. And like Ryan said, you know, you have some people are just driving in from, you know, the suburbs who never participated in anything like this, despite, you know, a lot of the Right. Saying all of these people are paid agitators or whatever. But, you know, average, ordinary people who are responding to something organically that's happening in their neighborhood. Neighborhood. And I think this is what Trump wants. He wants the escalation of this sort of cyclical violence that, you know, spirals down so that he could have a pretense or justification to end up deploying the Insurrection Act. I and we should also mention at the same time that, you know, we had Caroline Levitt. I'll pull up this, this site here for you guys, claiming that Trump was joking about basically canceling the 2026 elections. We can go ahead and listen to this, this song here because I think this plays into a lot of the sort of like left wing or liberal fears as to what Trump is going to do moving forward and using this as sort of a pretense to even go this far. So let's go ahead and listen to her yelling at this reporter for taking it seriously that Trump said that we should maybe cancel the elections.
- [14:30]
Emily Jashinsky
Coming up.
- [14:31]
Mac Callahan
Thank you.
- [14:32]
Ryan Grim
Caroline, two questions.
- [14:33]
Mac Callahan
First, a follow up on one of my colleagues who asked you about the.
- [14:37]
Walton Goggins (Ad Voice)
President'S interview with lawyers. You said that he was joking about canceling the election.
- [14:44]
Emily Jashinsky
But Americans for generations have fought and.
- [14:46]
Walton Goggins (Ad Voice)
Died for democracy, for this democracy.
- [14:50]
Mac Callahan
Are you saying that the president finds the idea of canceling elections funny?
- [14:54]
Ryan Grim
Andrew, were you in the room? No. You weren't? I was in the room. I heard the conversation. And only someone like you would take that so seriously and pose it at a question that way.
- [15:04]
Mac Callahan
Okay, so, I mean, what do you guys think about that?
- [15:06]
Emily Jashinsky
She literally is saying, I guess you had to be there.
- [15:09]
Mac Callahan
Yeah, you weren't in the room. Which I guess, you know, I guess is somewhat true.
- [15:14]
Emily Jashinsky
Maybe it fell flat when written in Washington Post. Ease. Yeah, but yeah, he kind of had to be.
- [15:19]
Mac Callahan
Maybe he was like kicking his feet up and giggling.
- [15:22]
Emily Jashinsky
He does this all the time he jokes about, like, the most extreme stuff and then he ends up doing some of it.
- [15:27]
Mac Callahan
But I mean, a lot of people said he was joking about something about Greenland. Right.
- [15:32]
Emily Jashinsky
Like, even when he's executing the policy, he's joking. Yeah. Well, this is like, this is all a joke to him.
- [15:38]
Ryan Grim
The thing is with, like, you have to take what he jokes about seriously. And I get the, you know, take Trump seriously, not literally point, but you never know when he is actually being, you know, big picture, macro serious versus when he's being literal. Because sometimes it's like, oh, it's just a joke. And then it turns out to not be a joke. And he jokes a lot about canceling elections. So as much as, you know, well, on the right, he also did try to.
- [16:07]
Mac Callahan
He did try to steal the 2020 election as well.
- [16:09]
Ryan Grim
Like, I was just gonna say, like, as much as some of my friends on the right says, oh, it's tds. That's blue and on stuff, it is a president joking about canceling elections repeatedly while posting things. He's Napoleon posting. He's out there saying, he who saves his country violates no law. And the only guard on his. What does he say? The only. The New York Times quote, he is the.
- [16:30]
Emily Jashinsky
His. His understanding of right and wrong or whatever. Yeah.
- [16:33]
Ryan Grim
His morality. Yeah, he is the. Yeah, he.
- [16:35]
Emily Jashinsky
So anyway, it made me feel a lot better. Yeah.
- [16:37]
Ryan Grim
Yeah.
- [16:38]
Emily Jashinsky
Right. That's a guy whose moral compass is straight north.
- [16:41]
Ryan Grim
What could go wrong?
- [16:42]
Emily Jashinsky
Yeah.
- [16:43]
Ryan Grim
The point that I was just making, big picture, is I don't. I want people to be safe. And I don't think that Jacob Fry and Tim Wallace are making people much safer. I don't think Donald Trump is making people much safer in Minneapolis. So I'm not, I'm not begging for the Insur Insurrection act to be put down. Put to be enacted. I also am, though, begging for Jacob Fry and Tim Walls to get their shit together in Minneapolis.
- [17:06]
Emily Jashinsky
What I would, what I would say is I think that Miller has successfully made enough chaos that. And so I did. I just googled the sanctuary laws. They do have carve outs for, you know, violent criminals. I think that Miller has made enough chaos that Democrats would come to the table now and be like, okay, fine, like, we will. We will like, actually cooperate with you when we have a violent criminal who is here illegally and we'll let you know about it. Like in the past, like the law may have said, we will be proactive, but they're like, f you, we're not doing that because you Guys suck. If they came to an actual agreement and treated this country like it was one country and all of the people were coming together to set a policy that they would agree on rather than seeing this as a civil war or an insurrection or then I think, I think they would get that from Frey and Walls. Like, okay, fine, get ICE out of here. Like, get them out of.
- [18:07]
Ryan Grim
Stop.
- [18:07]
Emily Jashinsky
Stop patrolling the streets.
- [18:09]
Ryan Grim
Stop.
- [18:09]
Emily Jashinsky
Like, they sent these four guys. These four guys. You see this? They had. They ate at a Mexican restaurant, four of them in the afternoon, and then waited outside of it until the staff left and then arrested them. Yeah, like, stop doing that and then we'll cooperate with you on violent criminals. Like, I think that there would be a deal on the table. But that's the thing. I don't think they want that to max point. They have. They're getting what they want right now, which is a lot of scenes of violence that they can slap on their, like, utterly insane social media channels and, and stoke whatever. Empty. And you know, fill whatever emptiness is inside them with, with this, with this violence and nihilism.
- [18:53]
Ryan Grim
Yeah, I don't dispute at all that there's potentially people inside of the administration that want to. That want the Insurrection act to be invoked for scenes that perpetuate the political capital of having violent confrontations over illegal immigration. I. Yeah, that would. I mean, I don't think.
- [19:11]
Mac Callahan
And to your point, Emily, outrageous at all. It's really not like, you know, Jacob Fry and Tim Waltz are like leading the vanguard revolution against ICE or anything like that. We'll get some more clips of them here in a minute. But I mean, from my perspective, I think their response to this situation has been like lukewarm at best. You know, they're not in favor of abolishing ICE or confronting them in any sort of meaningful capacity.
- [19:32]
Ryan Grim
I mean, Jacob Fry said, get the fuck out of Minneapolis.
- [19:35]
Mac Callahan
You know, that's a classic. Like, let me deploy some aggressive rhetoric as a sort of show. And then later, I'm going to walk that back. We'll show a clip of him sort of walking that back in an interview.
- [19:45]
Emily Jashinsky
Here in a minute.
- [19:46]
Mac Callahan
But do you guys have any more thoughts in terms of the Insurrection act before we move on?
- [19:51]
Emily Jashinsky
I think that covers it.
- [19:54]
Breaking Points Sponsor Announcer
Support for the show comes from public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On public, you can build a multi asset portfolio of stocks, bonds, options, crypto and now generated assets which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index. With AI, it all starts with your prompt. From renewable energy companies with high free cash flow to semiconductor suppliers growing revenue over 20% year over year. You can literally type any prompt and put the AI to work. It screens thousands of stocks, builds a one of a kind index and lets you back test it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks. Generated assets are like EFTs with infinite possibilities, completely customizable and based on your thesis, not someone else's. Go to public.com podcast and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you try transfer your portfolio. That's public.com podcast paid for by Public Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors llc. SEC Registered Advisor Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not investment recommendation or advice. Complete Disclosures available at public.comdisclosures I have.
- [21:04]
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- [22:38]
Mac Callahan
All right, moving on to the latest on the ice protests in Minneapolis as well as some disturbing reporting out of Texas. I'm gonna go ahead and start off with this tear sheet here from the New York Times. Their headline is medical examiner believes the death of a man in ICE custody was a homicide. So a little bit on this real quick and then I'll get your guys thoughts. They say when U.S. immigration and Customs Enforcement announced the January 3rd death of detainee Geraldo Lunas Campos at the at a Texas detention camp, the agency said that staff observed him in distress and gave no cause of death. An employee of El Paso's county's office of the Medical examiner told Lunas Campos daughter this week that subject to results of a toxicology report, the office is likely to classify the death now as a homicide. According to a recording of the conversation. They continue here that saying that the employee said that a doctor there is listing the preliminary cause of death as asphyxia due to neck and chest compression, which means that Lunas Campos did not get enough oxygen because of pressure on his neck and chest. And then there was also an apparent witness to this event who saw a struggle between Lunas Campos and detention staff that ended up resulting in his death. So this is, you know, not the first death that's been reported in one of these facilities. But what are your guys thoughts on this?
- [23:59]
Emily Jashinsky
And so what, what we seem to understand about this incident is that this is a 55 year old Cuban man who was on medication and was being pushed to go to some other area before he had his medication. ICE is notorious for not giving the proper medications that are prescribed to people who are under their care that they treat. And it's not just ice, this is local jails as well that they treat like once you're in there, like oh, you take heart medication. Not our problem. Good luck.
- [24:38]
Mac Callahan
Right. Well and to your point, Ryan, real quick, I'll throw this also up on the screen because this same facility in Texas, in, at Fort Bliss, it's called Camp East Montana, has had 60 violations reported in just 50 days. And exactly what you were just saying there. They say this detention center at Fort Bliss called East Camp east or Camp East Montana failed to properly monitor and treat some detainees. Medical conditions lacked basic procedures for keeping guards and detainees safe and for weeks did not provide them a way to contact lawyers.
- [25:09]
Emily Jashinsky
It's systematic. The, the deprivation of medication, whether it is deliberate, a deliberate effort to injure and hurt the people under their care or whether it is just a kind of malicious negligence is up for dispute. But everybody who goes through these detention centers says that they have a serious difficulty in getting their medication. So this guy stood up for it. He's like, I need it. And people, a lot of people watching this are on medication. A lot of those medications are essential to your, to staying alive. And so just kind of buckling and bending the knee to the guards on that isn't really an option if being deprived of the medication is going to kill you or cause you irreparable health harm. So he stood up for that. He's like, I need my medication, I need my medication. They then you can just see this unfolding, see him as being non compliant. His, the fact that he had both chest and neck compressions suggests that he was thrown to the ground, put on the ground and then you know, you got knees on his neck, knees on his back like that. That's how you get chest and neck compressions. We may find it happens some other way, but that's the most likely scenario and it would come from him demanding his medication and them, and them seeing that demand as non compliant when they are in fact the ones that are in non compliance with the law. The law is extremely clear. You have prescription medications, you have to give the medications. The guy could be a serial killer. You're supposed to give the person their medications. These are not serial killers. 55 year old Cuban, like fleeing the starvation that we've caused on that island in the past would not even be in detention because we insist that Cuba is a tyrannical communist government and therefore people, you know, fleeing from there have, you know, ref. Are given asylum and refugee status here. We no longer treat Cubans across the board that way. So yeah, this is deeply disturbing on like a dozen different layers.
- [27:19]
Ryan Grim
It's one of the, I mean the, it's easy under difficult circumstances. And I won't even repeat because I'm like a broken record on this. It's just sort of generally my position is I feel like there's a, a lack, not lack, but just when you have the lawlessness. Lawlessness isn't the right word because some of it was created legal pathways. The Biden administration created some legal pathways. There was a lot of granting of asylum without detention people. So the New York Times estimate is low, but it's 8 million people in about three years. It's multiple populations of states put together that becomes, and it cannot become obviously cannot become because it is Such a serious situation, it cannot become an excuse for cruelty. And Ryan said, what was the phrase you used? Like malicious, malicious negligence. That's when it's easiest to drop your standards, is when it's easiest to start doing torture during the Iraq war. That's when Abu Ghraibs happen. When you have, I think, such a frustrating and significant situation, that's obviously difficult. And so I, yeah, I would be lying if I said that's not a serious concern because it is a frustrating scenario. But that's no excuse for failing to, if you're out there, you know, and I think rightfully, the three of us disagree on this, but rightfully saying patriotic things about the United States and reveling in the good of the United States and the sort of benevolence of the United States overall. And, and that's the patriotism that you're bringing to the table in the Trump administration. You have to uphold that every, every, every step of the way. There's no, there's no excuse for cruelty. So that's what I would add.
- [29:13]
Emily Jashinsky
Right.
- [29:14]
Ryan Grim
It's going to be hardest right now.
- [29:16]
Mac Callahan
Yeah. And to the point of the malicious negligence aspect of this, I also just wanted to point this out. So this facility, it was awarded to an LLC, Acquisition Logistics LLC, this $1.2 billion contract that they got through the Army. They have no listed experience in running a correction facility. They had never won a federal contract worth more than $16 million. The company lacks even a functioning website and lists its address as a modest home in suburban Virginia. So, you know, you also have the angle here of the, of sort of the awarding of these massive contracts to companies in many cases that are just interested in making a profit. And so you're going to have substandard conditions, they're going to cut corners. They're not going to prioritize anybody's safety or well being when that's not sort of the goal of the business that, that they're in.
- [30:09]
Emily Jashinsky
Yeah, yeah, that's right. And that's, that's a product of the rushed execution of the policy here. Like, we're going to, we're going to build, you know, we're going to find, you know, nature preserves and other places, Everglades, to build these. And then we're going to build them on military bases and we're going to build them as quickly as possible and we're going to find, yes, contractors who have no significant qualifications to do this, throw money at them, and if you don't care, then, then that can work.
- [30:39]
Ryan Grim
Becomes A different kind of feeding our future situation where you get pass through type. Like in all seriousness, where you have something that's a contractor that sponsors, sprouts up out of nowhere and is based at a home in suburban Virginia and someone is just doing rush stuff to rake in as much federal money as possible.
- [30:59]
Emily Jashinsky
Right, right. The taxpayers are spending, you know, enormous amounts of money per person and most of that money is going to the owners of these companies. And then what's left they use to hire or try to hire remotely qualified people, which they're not doing. And that's the other irony. Like if you talk to people who are involved in setting up these things, the hardest thing to do is to find qualified staff, qualified employees. So in other words, we don't have the workforce to staff the project that is aiming to deport millions of people. Right?
- [31:40]
Ryan Grim
No. I mean, yeah, the system is completely overwhelmed.
- [31:44]
Emily Jashinsky
Who thought this through? Did anybody think this through?
- [31:46]
Ryan Grim
So the system is completely overwhelmed.
- [31:49]
Emily Jashinsky
So the problem is we have too many people yet in order to get rid of these people, we don't have the people to do it.
- [31:53]
Ryan Grim
It's like the system is completely overwhelmed. I do think that was by design in the Biden administration, but that is not an excuse. So it's not an excuse to drop standards.
- [32:02]
Emily Jashinsky
I don't know. If you look at the reporting on the period, it seems more like incompetence combination.
- [32:10]
Mac Callahan
Should we go ahead and take a look here at some of the latest out of Minneapolis as protests are continuing in the aftermath of the shooting and killing of Renee. Good. I just want to start off with this first clip here. This is a guy who claims he wasn't even involved in any sort of protest and that his car was attacked by ICE officers who threw a smoke grenade where apparently six of his kids were inside. Let's go ahead and listen to a little bit of this officer.
- [32:38]
Ryan Grim
Flashbands and tear gas in my car and made my. Like I got, I got six kids.
- [32:45]
Krystal Ball
In the car or my six months, my sick.
- [32:48]
Ryan Grim
My six months. I can't even breathe.
- [32:50]
Mac Callahan
My two year old got.
- [32:51]
Ryan Grim
Then flipped out the damn car.
- [32:53]
Krystal Ball
This was flipped over my car feel a tear that I'm.
- [32:57]
Ryan Grim
I'm trying to pull my kids out the car. I'm telling the officer, I need ambulance. It took him five minutes. He's going back and forth with me, telling me to go back in there.
- [33:07]
Krystal Ball
And call and tell them, come on, Linda.
- [33:08]
Ryan Grim
They can't even come up.
- [33:09]
Emily Jashinsky
Lindell, were you participating in the protest?
- [33:11]
Krystal Ball
I wasn't. I wasn't at all.
- [33:13]
Mac Callahan
I didn't care to be so he says he wasn't even participating in the protests. Was sort of caught up in stuff that was developing around him and then got smoke grenade. He says a flashbang was. Was thrown into the car. You can see the car seat in the back. I mean, pretty bleak stuff. We also have another one here that I wanted to show. There was a separate interview that I'll get to here in a second with this kid that was involved in this. But I'm going to cut it short because there is a bit where it does show a little bit of blood. But this is a guy who was basically holding a megaphone towards these. These officers over here and was shot basically point blank in the face and ended up, I think, losing his eye as a result of this. You can see it right there. And then immediately after he gets shot there, you can see here going forward that the officers here just basically drag his body off into the distance. If this will. If this will load here. Yeah, they basically just pick him up and then just drag him off and falling down as he's doing it.
- [34:22]
Ryan Grim
By the way, are these ICE or are these California? Is that like a island? What are those officers?
- [34:27]
Mac Callahan
I think this may have been some of the officers responding to it.
- [34:30]
Ryan Grim
Yeah, it looks like they look like cops.
- [34:32]
Mac Callahan
Yeah, I think it may have been federal agents who were there working with ice. We also have another one here of the follow up to this guy losing his eye here in this interview. If I can pull this up. His name is Kaden Rumler. He says I will be blind for life. They pulled a piece of plastic the size of a nickel out of my eye. I had shards of metal, glass and plastic in my skull. And they say it's a miracle that he survived. And you can obviously see pretty gruesome injury there to his eye. But you know, again, this is just some of the latest chaos that's unfolding in. In Minnesota amidst. In Minnesota and around the country amidst this sort of crackdown.
- [35:12]
Emily Jashinsky
Right? Yeah. Standing there with a bullhorn is a protected First Amendment activity like that is. There could not be anything more First Amendment free speech right to protest than. Than expressing yourself with a bullhorn at a protest like that is. Yeah, that's what's is supposed to separate us from like China and Russia and Saudi Arabia. Like that's the. That's it right there like that. We have a lot of problems, but we have the freedom to express our dissent against the policies of our. Of our government. It's a.
- [35:52]
Mac Callahan
Well, and we Saw this with, with Ken's reporting as well, Ken Klippenstein, who put out this refresher that apparently was sent out to ICE officers about what's protected and what's not protected activities. And they have to remind these guys apparently behind the scenes that, yeah, filming an ICE officer or even yelling expletives at them or cursing at them or taunting them or saying mean things to them, that's entirely First Amendment protected activities. Now, you know, again, I see a lot of people, politicians, Democrats specifically, who put out these informative videos or statements and they say, these are your rights that you have. You can film them, you can do this and that. And to me, it's like we have these rights on paper, right? It is legal to film them. But then I see half a dozen videos coming out every single day of ICE agents tackling people, arresting people for the crime of filming them or, you know, saying F you or whatever.
- [36:46]
Emily Jashinsky
Right. Having the right is not going to bring, you know, Caden's eye back.
- [36:49]
Mac Callahan
Right.
- [36:51]
Emily Jashinsky
And almost his life, like, like to have all that stuff in your brain and be bounced around by the officer like that. Like any one of those bounces could have tilted that. That debris and, and kind of. And killed him.
- [37:06]
Mac Callahan
Right.
- [37:07]
Ryan Grim
They say. And what you can see in the video, that's. It's like a point blank, like blank shot with a pepper ball, basically. So let me. I'm reading from the local ABC News report that says it was to max point federal officers. It looks like it's dhs. From, from what I can tell, it looks like it's dhs. And then this is what DHS is saying. She called the group, quote, violent rioters and said that two officers were injured. And here's what they say about Seitz, who is the one who was getting dragged by the arm. They. The federal complaint alleges Seitz failed to leave the property despite warnings and threw an orange cone at officers, then resisted arrests and struck an officer on the shoulder and in the groin. ABC goes on to say details weren't immediately available about the second set of charges filed and the U.S. attorney's office didn't immediately respond to questions about them. So probably more information to come.
- [38:06]
Emily Jashinsky
Yeah, I mean, he was certainly. Yeah, he was certainly flailing after he got hit in the face. They can call that resisting if they want.
- [38:11]
Ryan Grim
Oh, that's the other guy. So the guy, the guy.
- [38:15]
Mac Callahan
T shirt that you're talking about, right?
- [38:17]
Ryan Grim
Yeah, the guy who's got. Who got dragged out by the arm. So I have no problem with people Protesting ICE whatsoever at all. I just don't think it's going to make anybody safer to resist arrest or to throw. If it's true. I don't know that it's true that he threw a cone and hit an officer in the groin or whatever. If that's true. I don't think that's making anybody safe, safer, let alone yourself in these conditions. So I would just urge everybody, by all means, protest, but be careful and think about your own safety, the safety of people around you.
- [38:49]
Emily Jashinsky
Yeah. These federal troops could also just, you know, do something else.
- [38:55]
Mac Callahan
Should we go ahead and check in here?
- [38:56]
Ryan Grim
They should have more training in civil liberties. I don't dispute that in any way.
- [39:00]
Mac Callahan
Right. Should we go ahead and check in here with the mayor of Minneapolis and see him sort of backing off? You know, a couple, you know, a day after the day of the shooting of Renee Good, he came out and he told ICE to. To get the fuck out. And, you know, was. Was sort of praised for the rhetoric there, but seems like he's kind of at least watering down a little bit his. His criticism here. He's on Fox News and he's asked about abolishing ice. Let's go ahead and listen to a little bit of this, and then I'll show you guys a side by side of Randy Fine chiming in and giving a different interpretation of. Of what Jacob is saying here.
- [39:34]
Ryan Grim
Let me get you on record if.
- [39:35]
Emily Jashinsky
I can, Mr. Mayor.
- [39:36]
Mac Callahan
Do you support abolishing ICE? I do not support abolishing ICE. I, however, I absolutely oppose the way that this administration is conducting themselves with us. Look, there are a number of entities presently, agencies.
- [39:55]
Emily Jashinsky
But isn't that what your lawsuit is about?
- [39:57]
Mac Callahan
Stopping ICE themselves? No, you should read the lawsuit. The lawsuit says that, hey, you know, ICE doing ICE stuff is not what we're talking about right now. Again, we've had ICE in our city before. We've had ICE in our state before. It is the fact that, look, right now there's about 3,000 federal ICE agents in our city between ICE and border control. You know how many police officers that we have? 600.
- [40:26]
Emily Jashinsky
Right. The kind of.
- [40:27]
Mac Callahan
All right, so what do we. What are we sorted to make of.
- [40:29]
Emily Jashinsky
That, by the way? First of all, can you imagine if Omar Fatah had won that election?
- [40:35]
Mac Callahan
Right.
- [40:35]
Ryan Grim
Yeah.
- [40:35]
Emily Jashinsky
What this national conversation would be like right now?
- [40:38]
Mac Callahan
Yeah.
- [40:39]
Emily Jashinsky
There would be fifth. There would be 50,000 federal troops in. In Minneapolis. Yeah. And they would have arrested him by now. So the fact you got Jacob there probably changes that. That calculation a little bit.
- [40:53]
Mac Callahan
I mean, I think it's also important to point out just the polling data within the Democratic voter base on this. Like, I saw some recent polling. It's overwhelmingly a majority of Democratic voters that at this point support abolishing. I support at least reducing the scope and the funding of ice. And you're just not really seeing that reflected in a majority of elected Democratic officials, especially at the national level.
- [41:16]
Ryan Grim
Well, let me, like, just add to that, though, during the first Trump administration that we saw a very similar pattern and we saw Ryan, you can speak to this. I think you even, you've written about it. And is it in the squad you. You write about, you cut, you've covered this, about how there was this momentum for the Abolish ICE movement and it.
- [41:37]
Emily Jashinsky
Became elected or, and, and yeah, and.
- [41:41]
Ryan Grim
Then Democrats have, I think, probably rightfully looked back and said there are ways that ended up hurting them because public opinion is, can be ephemeral and can be swayed by how politics. Well, obviously is swayed often by how politics shift, but it's not necessarily true that two years from now in a presidential election or even during the midterms, that Democratic opinion is going to be exactly the same on abolished ice. So I would say that's probably why there's more caution right now. And then I would also say that Republicans should listen to what Jacob Fry just said on Fox News where Griff Jenkins was saying, isn't that what your lawsuit is about, ultimately stopping ice? And that Fry kind of answered a different question. He kind of answered the first question, do you want to abolish ice? Because what he wants to do right now and what he's openly saying is he, he's stopping what ICE is doing right now. He's not trying to stop ICE itself, but he's trying to stop what ICE is doing right now. That Republicans, this is the flip side of it, should pay attention because the polling is with Jacob Fry on stopping what ICE is doing right now.
- [42:44]
Emily Jashinsky
Yeah, and it goes back to, I think, what I was saying earlier, that if, if the administration came to the mayor and said, look, fine, let's cooperate on, here's, here's a list of, you know, 3,000 violent criminals who are here illegally. Let's work together and get, and to deport these people and we will stop patrolling the streets, going to construction sites and Mexican restaurants, that I think, I think at that point Democrats would take it. But that, but that, that, that's not the goal. Like, that's not what, that's not what Miller wants. Maybe Trump would be Cool with that. Doesn't, doesn't matter. He's the Prime Minister, Stephen Miller is not. And so he's going to push it. And so, and, and that's why I think that all of the numbers that you're looking at in the polling now are a snapshot in time. But, but if we have another three years of this, of him, of him sending ice from city to city, they're going to Portland and Lewiston, Maine, apparently today or tomorrow there's. Because there's a Somali community there. So we're going to get images out of Maine. The numbers are only going to swing even further against. I might have to jump off in a minute. I might be able to stay. But if I leave all of a sudden, that's.
- [44:07]
Ryan Grim
You were deported.
- [44:08]
Emily Jashinsky
I was deported from this show.
- [44:13]
Ryan Grim
Well, we have Mack here today who looks like an ICE officer. So this just kicks Ryan off. But this is the other thing. I mean like, for this is purely from a political perspective. The Trump administration seems to think leaning into these images we were talking about this with the Insurrection act is what will make it more palatable to the public. If you're fomenting violence from the left. Not that I think you need to. I think there are plenty of agitators who are going to do this. Whether or not Donald Trump invokes the Insurrection act, we're already kind of seeing that. But the point is if they're trying to inflame the situation and make it look even worse, make it get even worse, and they're trying to show ice cracking down in ways where you see a 21 year old getting hit with a pepper ball to the eye by two feet between the barrel of the gun in his face. Well, that is a political miscalculation quite obviously in the same way that it was a political miscalculation, I think, for Dems to lean into abolish ICE for so long. So if they think that going to Portland, Maine and going around the country with like ice kitted out and spraying pepper balls in the eyes of 21 year olds is going to be helpful. It's not that it's not going to be helpful. Even again, like politically, if they want to do those operations all over the country, what will behoove them is looking orderly and just and fair and calm. And that's obviously not the images even that they're disseminating themselves.
- [45:42]
Mac Callahan
Yeah, I mean nobody's making the case for Abolish ICE better than Stephen Miller right now. Should we go ahead real quick and check in with the, the governor, Tim Waltz, who's apparently on his way out, not running for reelection, but he had a statement that he put out recently calling for people to continue filming ICE agents. He says he wants to create a database of the atrocities against Minnesotans, not just to establish a record for posterity, but to bank evidence for future prosecutions. What do you guys think about that?
- [46:17]
Emily Jashinsky
Hey, Preach. Governor, do you think, do you think.
- [46:21]
Mac Callahan
There will be any sort of real accountability in the future?
- [46:24]
Emily Jashinsky
As people have said many times from the other direction, if you're not doing anything wrong, you have no fear.
- [46:30]
Ryan Grim
Yeah, I think there will be. I think there's going to be enormous appetite. I mean, depending how things go, but I think there is going to be enormous appetite for that. And that's where we talked about this on Wednesday's show. Stephen Miller saying you have absolute federal immunity to ICE officers is not even helpful to his own ICE officers because you have these guys coming in and hearing Stephen Miller say absolute federal immunity. And maybe what that, I mean that's almost like not a lie. I mean maybe it's a lie by omission to these guys who hear that and say absolute immunity because it sounds like absolute immunity, even though he's saying absolute federal immunity. You may face retribution when there's a different federal administration, but then also on the state level as well. So that's, I mean that's the thing with Derek Chauvin right now, right. If he were got a federal pardon, they're saying he could end up just still in prison because the state would prosecute. So there's not necessarily, quote, absolute immunity even if there's absolute federal immunity right now.
- [47:34]
Emily Jashinsky
Yeah, and state did, right? Keith Ellison locked them up.
- [47:39]
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- [50:23]
Ryan Grim
We also have Gavin Newsom interviewing Ben Shapiro on his podcast. Why Gavin Newsom feels the need to have a podcast, I don't know. I guess the obvious answer is he's running for President. But let's go ahead and take a look at this. She was a domestic terrorist who's attempting.
- [50:36]
Emily Jashinsky
To run over officers with her car.
- [50:38]
Mac Callahan
And was legitimately trying not not just.
- [50:40]
Ryan Grim
This officer, but multiple officers. That was the original statement, I said at the time I thought that was untrue. And then your press office tweeted out that it was state sponsored terrorism, which, I mean, Governor, I do have to ask you about that. That sort of thing makes our politics worse. Yeah. And it does. And our, our ICE officers obviously are not terrorists.
- [51:00]
Emily Jashinsky
Yeah.
- [51:01]
Ryan Grim
A tragic situation is not state sponsored terrorism.
- [51:03]
Emily Jashinsky
Yeah, I think that's fair.
- [51:04]
Mac Callahan
I mean, one was.
- [51:05]
Ryan Grim
All right, so that clip's going viral because Newsom says, yeah, I think that's fair. Any reaction here to Greasy Gavin?
- [51:12]
Mac Callahan
Well, I, I honestly, I didn't know that this was him interviewing Ben Shapiro, which makes it somehow worse than him going on Ben Shapiro show. For me, because I, I haven't seen Gavin on any genuine, like, left wing podcast to, to face real challenges and criticism from the left, but he had Ben Shapiro on his podcast and sort of walking back his, his label of ICE as domestic terrorists.
- [51:35]
Emily Jashinsky
And what was the incident that he's saying was state. He said was state sponsored terrorists?
- [51:39]
Mac Callahan
I think it was the shooting of Renee Good.
- [51:41]
Ryan Grim
It was Renee Good. Yeah, yeah.
- [51:43]
Emily Jashinsky
It just. I mean, yeah. Come on, stand up for your social media team here. It's not, it's not. You're not saying that all ICE officers are terrorists. You're saying that that was terrorism. And since they killed Renee Goode, ICE officers have repeatedly told other protesters, didn't you see what happened to her? Didn't you learn the lesson from that? Like, that is definitionally the goal of terroristic violence, to stoke terror so that you control other people, so that you control a future outcome. But anyway, he wants to back off of that. Okay. Has he had any left wing people on his podcast? Like, people.
- [52:28]
Mac Callahan
I mean, I'm sure he's talked to the abundance people or whatever, but. No, I mean, come on, come on. Breaking points, Gavin.
- [52:35]
Emily Jashinsky
Or gotta have us on, although. Yeah.
- [52:38]
Mac Callahan
Or have Ryan on your podcast.
- [52:39]
Emily Jashinsky
Yeah. He seems to do everything in studio. Like, I'm not going to California for that.
- [52:43]
Mac Callahan
Okay.
- [52:44]
Emily Jashinsky
Okay.
- [52:44]
Mac Callahan
All right.
- [52:45]
Ryan Grim
Well, no, I'm not going to Sacramento.
- [52:49]
Emily Jashinsky
Sacramento loves. I love Sacramento, but I, I don't. I'm not. It's a long flight. Not happening. It's a long flight. So invite, but invite Mac. Like, come on.
- [52:58]
Mac Callahan
Oh, come on. I'll do the flight. I'll go out there.
- [53:00]
Emily Jashinsky
Yeah. Mac doesn't have kids yet. He can. He can go out there.
- [53:04]
Mac Callahan
I do have a dog, so got to bring him with me, I guess.
- [53:07]
Emily Jashinsky
Drop the dog off at my place.
- [53:08]
Ryan Grim
It's fine. We'll take you all Right, let's move on to Sean Ryan. If you're not familiar with Sean Ryan, he's considered kind of one of the podcast bros. Unfairly. He's former special ops. But maybe it's not unfair that he's considered one of the podcast bros because he's in that group.
- [53:23]
Emily Jashinsky
Is that a pejorative now?
- [53:24]
Ryan Grim
I mean, is it like Bernie Bros? I think it's. It's used pejoratively, but it's also one of those things that could be perfectly accurate because he's in that group of people like Tim Dillon, Theo Vaughn, who, Andrew Schultz. Obviously those are all comedians and Sean Ryan is former special ops. But they're kind of MAGA curious people whose, whose content was not super political. But when Trump was running again in 2024, they started to become kind of MAGA curious and he had Ro Khanna on the podcast. He actually also had Gavin Newsom on his podcast not long ago. He's had Hunter Biden on recently where he had a pretty friendly conversation with Hunter Biden, to be perfectly honest. And he went off on Trump a couple of times over the Epstein files. So to the extent there's a potential MAGA crack up in the works, maybe not your average, like Republican voter or your average conservative movement type person, but those guys who kind of came in and made a difference on the margins, like Sean Ryan, I think absolutely you're starting to see something like that. So let's take a listen to a few of these clips and you'll get a flavor of it.
- [54:30]
Emily Jashinsky
The proactively protecting pedophiles. They are protecting pedophiles at this point, by redacting the abusers names. The White House. Listen up, everybody. The fucking White House is protecting pedophiles. You hear that? They're fucking protecting pedophiles. That's what the fuck they're doing.
- [54:54]
Ryan Grim
And now let's listen to another one here.
- [54:58]
Mac Callahan
Voted for this. I mean, I voted for this.
- [55:02]
Emily Jashinsky
I voted to get these damn files released.
- [55:05]
Mac Callahan
And it's like a total 180 just happened. I voted to get these damn. We've got one more in a house protecting pedophiles.
- [55:14]
Emily Jashinsky
Why is the White House protecting pedophiles? I just don't understand it, Ro. I can't get it through my head why we would protect pedophiles.
- [55:23]
Walton Goggins (Ad Voice)
Why?
- [55:23]
Ryan Grim
Okay, so let me just say I think what's interesting about this is how the Epstein files are not. It's nobody's top issue when they go to the polls, not even like podcasters. It's not. Sean Ryan isn't going to say it was his top issue when he went and voted for Donald Trump. But what it has become, and I think this is important, it's not just a podcaster issue. It's become a litmus test for trust in how anti establishment, how drain the swamp you actually are. And so to the extent that this genuinely has caused political problems, electoral problems for Republicans, I think that's it. I don't know what you guys think.
- [56:03]
Emily Jashinsky
Yeah, I think that's exactly right. Epstein, for a couple years now, at least a year, year and a half, at least, has become this, like, stand in for how you, whether or not you trust a politician, like, you would listen to what they said about Epstein and decide from there. If you're going to listen to anything else they have to say doesn't mean you're going to agree with everything they say after that. But if they give you the wrong answer on Epstein, you're done with them. I don't care what you say after that. I don't trust you. And now it has gotten to the point of we're beyond asking questions about this. We want action. We want these documents released, we want the indictments, in particular the draft indictments, and we, we want the depositions, we want the names. And if you're not going to give that, then I don't want to hear anything else you have to say about tariffs, about deportations, about insurrection, about illegals, like, about how it's, the media is unfair to you about like grocery prices or whatever. Don't want to hear it. Like you're cut, you're cut off with a huge portion of the voting public by failing on that basic question of morality and integrity?
- [57:20]
Mac Callahan
Yeah, I mean, it kind of reminds me of, at least on the left, and I'm sure there's some of this on the right as well, increasingly right now. But the APAC question, where it's like, if you can't commit to not taking APAC money, let alone corporate money broadly, how am I supposed to trust that you're going to actually work for me? You're not going to work on behalf of the interests of, of this foreign government in their lobby. So I think it's like kind of similar in that sense, but I mean, it's such a low bar. Like, what are we talking about? Like, I mean, I guess my question for Emily is, within the MAGA coalition, will there ever be a breaking point in terms of coming to the realization that not only is Trump engaging in one of the most obvious and brazen cover ups of, of in, in American history with the Epstein files. I mean, we're now what, three weeks out in a row where they've missed the deadline to, you know, to push forward in releasing them. But, but not only is he involved in this cover up, but it's very obvious why he's engaging in this cover up. He has a closer affiliation with Jeffrey Epstein than basically anybody else on the planet that, that you could say, like, when is the connection point in, in MAGA if ever going to happen? Where they say, okay, not only is he doing the COVID up, but like he's making himself look increasingly guilty as time goes on. Like now I went from being like, well, you know, Trump, you know, he's probably in the Epstein files. They were best friends for 10 years according to Epstein, et cetera, et cetera. But I don't know if he was on the island or doing things with children or whatever, but as time goes on, I'm more like, like, okay, what, what actually is in these files beyond what we already know that has him going this far to prevent them from being released?
- [59:08]
Ryan Grim
The. So I think the kind of hardened MAGA core, which I put it like 30 to 40% of the Republican voters, and this is something people get wrong politically about MAGA a lot, is that there's so many Republican voters who tolerate Trump, even going back to 2016, they tolerate Trump because they think he is. This is a good explanation for Sean Ryan, somebody who voted for him. They think he is a change agent, or for some people it's a combination of thinking that he's a disruptor slash change agent and better than the alternative. So it works for him in these presidential matchups where he's against Kamala Harris, you know, a month after Biden or two months, whatever, after Biden gets out of the, out of the race, or Hillary Clinton, like some of these perfect foils and so that's how he's been able to get reelected is you have those people, that's why these, these kind of people really matter. And for JD Vance, if he wanted to run for president, that's why these people really matter. The Sean Ryans and Andrew Schultz and people think, Tim Dillon, people think that's silly. It's not. It's like average Americans who look at this and say, okay, if you're going to be, if, if this is a choice between right and left and I'm looking for someone to disrupt the system and you're from the MAGA coalition, you're going to Disrupt the system. That's how Trump ends up tipping the scales in his favor, getting more votes than Kamala Harris, more votes than Hillary Clinton, because people put that kind of trust in him when it's a kind of choice, A or B, lesser or two evil, lesser of two evils vote as people see it. And so nothing will, I think, come between Trump and that ever that 30 to 40% of the Republican electorate, which is the types of people that are going to rallies, that's maybe, maybe 15% of voters overall. Nothing will come between them. Because part of his appeal, they trust him implicitly because he said, I know the system, I was part of it. So it's not surprising to that group of people that he was part of the system. The point is they trust him personally to go and take on the system that he was once a part of. It's not a deal breaker to them knowing that he was once a part of the system. They don't want him to currently be part of the system, and they trust that he's not currently part of the system. And so I think that's the explanation for that segment of the voting public. But that's where other voters who just tolerate Trump and see him as the lesser of two evil option for a JD Vance or Marco Rubio or whatever, this legitimately is a problem because it's a litmus test issue. It's not anyone's top voting thing, but it is going to be a part of the conversation long into the future, and they sure as hell need to have an answer for it. Because some people just automatically will not trust you if you come to them and you say and you give bullshit, right? Like, if it sounds like you're bullshitting, that's where Sean Ryan is like, dude, no, no, no, no, no, no, this is not right. This is not what you said you were doing. This is not. You are not a change agent or a disruptor.
- [62:10]
Emily Jashinsky
And I think to max point about starting to, to question Trump's guilt, I think that's related to everyone's understanding of his extreme selfishness and narcissism. Nobody, even Trump's best friends, don't think Trump is altruistically doing things for other people. Trump is in it for Trump. Everybody agree, like, nobody disagrees with that. So if he's taking on all of this political water in order to cover up what's in these files, it's very hard to believe that he's doing it for somebody else. Maybe all of a sudden he has found a selfless bone in his body, and he's actually, you know, chivalrously protecting somebody else or his friends or something. I don't think anybody really believes that, though. So they're like, okay, all right, all right, guy. What on earth is in these documents? Right.
- [63:04]
Mac Callahan
Yeah, I mean, I see a lot of deflection, too, like, from the more hardened Trump supporters bringing up, you know, Bill Clinton is the most famous example that I see all the time and, you know, whatever. But to me as a leftist, and I think basically the entirety of the left agrees on this, is it's like, okay, if Bill Clinton is implicated criminally in any way, throw him in jail. Not a single one of us would. Would give a shit about that.
- [63:25]
Ryan Grim
Right?
- [63:26]
Mac Callahan
Go ahead, do it. Arrest him. Bring charges, and everybody else who's implicated in this. But, like, how has that aspect of it not broken through to the point where, like, this is such. It's become such a partisan thing within MAGA to say, okay, maybe this is still. We can try to play it off as this is mostly a Democrat thing or a Clinton thing or a podcast thing.
- [63:46]
Ryan Grim
That's the. I. You guys have probably heard this, right? That this is just a luxury issue that podcasters care about. It doesn't really matter to. To regular voters. And I, like, that is not true. Republican politicians don't think that that's true. I remember in the summer, I've mentioned this a couple of times before they were heading out for August recess. This was really starting to come to a head because they were trying to get the bill passed. And I was asking them, do you think that this is going to be an issue when you go back to your district? Everyone that I talked to said, yes, like, rank and file Republicans were like, yes, this is going to be that. What they wanted to talk about was the tax bill. And when I asked them that, they easily could have demurred and said, oh, no, this is. I think you're hearing a lot of chatter about this in the media, but, you know, my voters tend to have kitchen table issues on their mind. No, that is not what they told me. This was like four or five rank and file Republicans. They all said they expected. Expected to hear about it in August when they went home.
- [64:37]
Mac Callahan
All right, guys, we are happy to be joined now by Dania Munoz, who is a nurse at Mount Sinai Hospital in New York City. They're now entering their fifth day of a massive strike. Around 15,000 nurses going out on strike. Thank you so much for joining the show today.
- [64:53]
Krystal Ball
Thank you guys for having me. Good morning.
- [64:56]
Mac Callahan
Yeah. So if we can just go ahead and start off, if you want to give us, like a rough breakdown and intro into why you guys are going out on strike right now, what are the terms of the agreement that are in play right now?
- [65:07]
Krystal Ball
Yeah. So we've been bargaining since October with our employers. Some other tables have been bargaining with them since August. The main things that we're asking for currently are health insurance. They're trying to make extensive cuts to our current health plan. And this would affect not just the nurses who are bargaining this current contract, but also people who aren't even at the bargaining table. This can affect up to 44,000 nurses throughout New York State and their family members as well. Other things that we're fighting for currently, our workplace safety, prevention and protections. For example, in my hospital at Mount Sinai, Maine, they basically don't have weapons detections or metal detectors in every entrance. It's only in the ed and I believe in one psych unit. So we want to make sure that anybody who comes into our institutions feel protected. Not just the staff, but also the patients. And then other things that we're fighting for are patient safe patient ratios. We currently have the ratios. We last time won a process to be able to hold our hospitals accountable for understaffing us, which means causing nurses to take more patients than they should. And currently the hospitals are trying to take back the language that has allowed us to retain and also hire a thousand plus nurses. Another thing that's very important for us at Mount Sinai Main Hospital is respect for the nurses. They have terminated nurses. They have basically disciplined nurses for union activity, for speaking up and advocating not just for ourselves, but also for our communities. So these are basically the top number, the top things that we're fighting for currently in our contracts. And this is something that New York Presbyterian, Mount Sinai, West Morningside, Maine and also Montefue are all fighting for.
- [66:59]
Emily Jashinsky
Okay, what is, what is the safety situation like now? My, my brother's is a nurse, and one of the hospitals where he worked at previously had some serious, like, security issues for the nurses. And are they fighting you on this? Like, is it. I guess. What, what are they saying? That metal detectors then require staff at each one. And so this is like, incredibly expensive. So.
- [67:24]
Ryan Grim
Yeah, I was gonna ask that too, because it sounds like obviously what you're asking for is rooted in experience, that something led to you asking for this. So if you could tell us more about that, I think that would be really helpful.
- [67:36]
Krystal Ball
Yeah, of course. I mean, there's so many things that have happened. One of the most. One of the most recent things happened in November where we had a person come into the ED and say that they were going to shoot up the ed and basically that person had a gun. They had left the gun outside, tried to come into the building and NYP chased the person down like Madison Avenue and unfortunately killed the person. From the people who were in the emergency department, they said that the person looked like they were in some sort of mental distress. So, you know, there was no mass notification system that went out to notify the nurses about the incident, like, even afterwards. Also, the ED is the only place that has weapons detection systems in place. So that's like one of the most recent instances. Another other things that happen at the bedside is nurses are getting punched and kicked, bitten. A lot of the patients we take care of have started to show a lot of aggression and violence. We've had nurses being stalked from. Yeah. Where they've told basically the security and the hospital that, hey, I have a stalker. Don't let this person in. They've let them in the hospital. We've had nurses that have been sexually assaulted in some of our bathrooms. It's terrible. We need behavioral health crisis teams and people that are trained in de escalation for those who come into our hospitals and are in mental distress and want to harm us. But we also need better screening mechanisms so that we know who's coming in our buildings. Are they actually patient family members? Because some of the people that have come into our buildings aren't even there to see patients. So this is just a, like, a few of the things that have occurred that have basically caused us to advocate and make sure that there are better safety mechanisms in place. Again, not just for the nurses, but also for anyone who comes into the hospital. It's ludicrous that we don't know the people coming in. We're not screening them properly. And living in New York City, people go to stadiums, they go to Broadway shows. There's ways to have these systems in place, things that they put up daily and take down in a lot of other places. To me me, it's crazy that a big institution like Mount Sinai has not been able to figure out how to implement a lot of these safety mechanisms.
- [70:05]
Emily Jashinsky
Is this something that the city can help the hospital out with? So I have a couple of. I'm of a couple different minds on this because on the one hand, I can see the hospital being like, okay, you're nervous about your security, Fine, we'll invest more money in your security. But that's coming out of your health care, that's coming out of your overtime and wages. If the city came in and offered security services, which you could argue they ought to, because the hospital is being asked to treat lots of people for free. So if they're doing something for free, then the city could kick in, send some officers. On the other hand, if somebody has a warrant out, out and needs to go to the hospital, you don't want them to not go to the hospital because they have a warrant and are worried that at the metal detector they're going to get actually then arrested and instead of getting treatment, they're going to go to Rikers. Is. Is this. You know, so how are you. How are you guys navigating this question of resources dedicated towards security versus trying to make your. Your health insurance affordable?
- [71:13]
Krystal Ball
I mean, I think it's two separate issues. I mean, if it's funded by the government, then that's great, but we need to make sure that we're allocating our funds equally to the things that matter. Like, yes, safety is important. Healthcare is also important. So what I would say is that even if they were to give us money and allocate it towards security, excuse me, we're not asking for it to be NYPD at the doorstep. We're asking for it to be people who are trained in ds, these like mental health crisis or even aggression. Sometimes all you need is someone who knows how to speak to you and bring you from 100 to 5%. Right? The reality is that these people who come into our institutions and whether they're patients or family members, they're going through the worst moments of their lives, right? They're here, they're sick, they want care. And, you know, in regards to the comment about people from Rikers, we get inmates all of the time that come and get care in New York City. We don't turn away people. We want people to come and get care. And whether it's immigrants, whether it's our trans or LGBT communities, anyone is welcome to get care. And honestly, in our contracts, we're currently fighting to make sure that those people are also protected. You shouldn't have to wonder, am I going to be deported? Is ICE going to come into these institutions? Will I be arrested? Am I going to be judged for walking in and loving someone else or loving someone else, or, you know, or looking a different way? Everybody deserves care. I believe it's one of those things that it doesn't matter who you are, you definitely deserve to get healthcare. The thing is, in our country currently, people are thinking, do I, do I pay my rent or do I go to the doctor? Do I put food on the table or do I go get a health checkup? And those are questions that we should not be asking ourselves. If anything, the government should be investing more in healthcare.
- [73:14]
Mac Callahan
Honestly, can you tell us a little bit more about the, the crackdown from the hospital in terms of going after union organizers as well as I saw, I mean, I'm reading here from the New York Times, they've spent upwards, collectively $100 million to hire temporary nurses to come in and to rent hotels for them, et cetera. Can you tell us a little bit about this effort to sort of break the strike or, you know, bring it to its knees over time? What sort of is the strategy?
- [73:44]
Krystal Ball
I mean, it's interesting that you say that. For me, it seems like it's more than just about the strike. It's also in general about breaking unions. The reality is that they started to hire a lot of these travel nurses even before we dropped our 10 day strike notice, which is our legally protected right. We have 10 days to notify the employer so that they can get ready and hire whomever they need. A lot of these nurses were being hired in early December, even in, in late November, before we went on strike. And you're saying, you know, you have the numbers, $100 million that they've held onto and they basically have used to hire these nurses. That's $100 million they could have invested in us. They're saying our healthcare is too expensive. They're saying they need to make, make cuts. And instead of investing in the nurses that show up every day, nurses who have been there for many years. One of my colleagues has been there for 38 years. Like we're talking about people who also have just started their careers. They're investing in staying in New York City, in staying at these institutions. And it's horrific that Mount Sinai instead and a lot of these other institutions are choosing to put $100 million into the transportation, the safety of these nurses who are not the ones who are dedicated to taking care of these communities. Like they're busing them in, they're giving them hotel rooms, there's NYPD and there's more security than I've ever seen to make sure that these nurses that again are coming here and are not the ones who are used to taking care of New Yorkers, it's a slap in the face to what they could actually be investing towards, which is us, the people that care every single day. And not just during a strike. Right. Like we have been asking them to hire nurses since before the strike. We've been telling them for years. And like I said before, the language that we won in our last contract has allowed us to retain a lot of nurses and hire a lot of nurses. $100 million is money that they can invested in making sure that these nurses were hired not just because of a strike, but also throughout the past three years when we've been advocating that we could. We still need more nurses at the bedside.
- [76:01]
Ryan Grim
And Matt, can you pull this clip of Mayor Mamdani up? Because I want to ask Danya a bit about the significance of Mayor Mamdani coming to the picket line and standing with you all the extent to which that's added momentum to the cause. We'll first watch it and then turn it over to you, Danya.
- [76:20]
Krystal Ball
Sounds good.
- [76:21]
Ryan Grim
Thank you.
- [76:21]
Emily Jashinsky
Must return immediately to the negotiating table and not leave. They must bargain in good faith.
- [76:27]
Ryan Grim
That's right. And they must arrive at a deal that is satisfactory to all that allows.
- [76:35]
Emily Jashinsky
The nurses who work in this city to live in this city.
- [76:39]
Ryan Grim
So you're involved in this fight. Obviously. That's what we've been talking about. What, from your perspective, did this do to help?
- [76:47]
Krystal Ball
I mean, I, the, the mayor definitely has been on our side for some time, even before he was elected. He came to our initial launch in I believe it was August and said he supported the ca. So I wasn't surprised. I was very excited to see him visit New York Presbyterian Hospital. And I'm glad that he is still sticking to what his platform stood on, which is being there for the working people and making sure that he can make a difference when it comes to us and not these corporate greedy CEOs. What we would like to see, honestly, is the governor come down and support us. She put out an executive order that basically has allowed these institutions to think that we're in a state of emergency and hire Nazis. Just nurses, but healthcare professionals and allow them to come into our hospitals. The real state of emergency is that these CEOs are so greedy that they don't want to give us our health care, that they don't want to staff appropriately, that they want to make sure that we don't have safety mechanisms in our hospitals. So for Governor Hochul, she should be ashamed of what she put out. She should be siding with the nurses honestly. And she should be telling these hospital executives, hey, give these nurses their health insurance. Make sure we have enough nurses for the amount of patients. Make sure we have these safety mechanisms. So I'm honored and I'm proud that the mayor was able to do that. But we need the higher ups and higher government officials to be responsible and know the things that they're putting out and know who they're siding with, because she was definitely not siding with the nurses when she put that out.
- [78:22]
Emily Jashinsky
Yeah. Come on, Governor, what are you doing?
- [78:24]
Ryan Grim
I mean.
- [78:25]
Krystal Ball
Yeah, seriously.
- [78:27]
Emily Jashinsky
All right, well, Danya, thank you so much for joining us. And, you know, good luck as you continue these negotiations.
- [78:33]
Krystal Ball
Yes, thank you so much, everyone. Have a wonderful day, and thank you for giving me this platform to speak about the issues that are so important to us and will definitely affect our New Yorkers. Take care, everyone.
- [78:43]
Emily Jashinsky
Of course.
- [78:43]
Mac Callahan
Absolutely.
- [78:44]
Emily Jashinsky
If the executives are watching, you're welcome to come on and try to defend your position. Love to hear from you.
- [78:50]
Ryan Grim
I think people don't realize the. Especially people who aren't in cities don't realize how, like, the security risks that nurses confront often.
- [79:02]
Emily Jashinsky
Yeah, no, it's no joke. She said it well. That, like, nobody wants to be at the hospital. You're either visiting someone who's at the very low point in their life or you yourself are at a very low point. And also, and often police take people who are having mental health crises and just kind of dump them at some of these EDs. So, yes, they are. They're put in extremely difficult situations with not enough protection and, you know, far less compensation than they deserve.
- [79:34]
Ryan Grim
Yeah, we could have your brother on someday.
- [79:37]
Emily Jashinsky
Yeah, that would be fun. We have the exact same voice. We could. If we did a podcast together. You wouldn't be able to to tell who was who. That's amazing. We can fool my mom. That's good.
- [79:48]
Ryan Grim
Oh, that's dangerous. A parent trap situation on a phone.
- [80:00]
Krystal Ball
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- [81:06]
Mac Callahan
Janice Torres here, and I'm Austin Hankwitz.
- [81:09]
Emily Jashinsky
We host the podcast Mind the Business.
- [81:11]
Mac Callahan
Small Business Success Stories, produced by Ruby Studio in partnership with Intuit QuickBooks.
- [81:16]
Krystal Ball
We're back for season four to talk to some incredible small business owners.
- [81:19]
Mac Callahan
The big thing about working at tech is that it's ever evolving, ever changing.
- [81:23]
Emily Jashinsky
Everyone's a rookie.
- [81:24]
Mac Callahan
That's how fast the industry is changing. So what I'm really excited about, about us to be part of that change. So listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [81:34]
Krystal Ball
This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.